135: The Broken Prospecting & Sales Process With Jake Dunlap

Thank you to our sponsors, LeadIQ, Costello, SalesLoft, WorkRamp, and Dialpad for helping us produce this podcast. Head over to jbarrows.com slash blog for the highlights of this episode and explore resources you can use right away. Let's make it happen. Good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrows with Make It Happen Mondays. I am sitting here with a follow-on guest who has some shit to talk because we actually made a bet on a Pats-Chiefs game that I lost, but that was under protest because it was a little bit of a bullshit call, but then they went ahead and won the Super Bowl, so I have nothing to talk about now. So anyways, let's bring him back on the show. Jake Dunlop, CEO over at Scaled.

How's it going, brother? Hey, what's going on, man? Yes, I know. Look, I get it. I was there. I saw it. But hey, look, we came away with the W, and then we came away with the ultimate W. Yep, and that's what matters, man. I mean, look, at the end of the day, you know, it's funny because, you know, Pats obviously have been, everybody hates us because we, you know, 20 years of just awesomeness, and it's odd that I'm in a weird place right now because I'm at peace with basically accepting we're going to suck as soon as, you know what I mean? Like, as soon as Brady goes, which he probably will this year, we're going to drop down to mediocre, and I'm oddly okay with that because I got 20 years of awesomeness that have been built up here that I'm going to cash in on, so I'm fine with it.

It must be nice. I've got the opposite. I've got, you know, 39 years of pretty much misery until the last five, right? I mean, it's my son, you know, he was born in 2014, and it's like all he knows, he's like, the Royals have won a championship, Chiefs, he's like, ah, we're legends. It's like, no, son. Well, and that, well, so, and I know probably people are like, shut up, get to the point, but I do want to make one point as far as Patriots fans, because everybody hates it, right? And it's like, look, there's two types of Patriots fans. People who are 40 years and older and 30 and younger. I'm going to give the 30 to 40-year-olds pass, right? Because 40 and older, we remember how bad the Pats were.

Like, we were awful forever, and so there's a genuine appreciation, right? Whereas if you're 30 and younger, you've just known championships for 20 years, and so you're just an arrogant prick. So, yeah, anyways, it's like all now Mahomes is becoming kind of like Steph Curry, right? So, right now, like, there's all these, like, Chiefs, you know, that now people are coming out of the woodworks. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I was a Chiefs fan for years. No, you wouldn't. Shut up. Anyways, let's get to the point of what we're talking about here today. I think the theme, well, first of all, just for people who don't know, talk to us about what Scaled's all about. Tell us where you're coming from on this stuff.

Yeah, let's do it. So, yeah, again, and always, man, you know, I love these conversations. So, I'm looking forward to it. So, for those of you who don't know, at Scaled, we really have, we call it kind of three core parts to our business. You know, at the heart, we're a sales consulting and strategy org. And really what that means in kind of the modern world is, you know, we firmly believe that, you know, sales technology is at the core of a modern sales org. So, we have a sales operations org where we've done hundreds and hundreds of sales technology implementations and overhauls. Because, again, we believe that that's just absolutely core when you're building a modern, you know, modern sales org.

Two is on the process side and the strategy, which is, you know, how do we better optimize both strategically and tactically our demand gen sales and account growth process. And then the third, and this is, you know, kind of our newest endeavors over the last six months is around, you know, what we call digital presence, which is we believe, you know, demand gen and outbound, inbound of the future is, especially if you're in B2B, that LinkedIn and G2 and your company's digital presence and your individual's digital presence is going to be paramount. You know, every company we talk to, they've got 20, 30% of their sales reps using LinkedIn every day. They have no consistent strategy. They're listening to people out there peddling like social selling, like DM stuff.

And really this group, we're teaching organizations and sales reps how to actually engage and to build a real community around themselves and their product, etc. to be viewed as a true thought leader, which is what we all want. So, you know, that's something that really, you know, candidly, John was born out of like the trends that we saw in the space that, you know, people aren't trying to hear the blog posts and the eBooks as much anymore. They want to hear these, these bite-sized nuggets. And so, you know, those are, that's been a new group that's really started to take off. You know, we've got, I think, you know, almost a, you know, maybe a hundred plus reps that are on like the beta now.

So I'm super excited about that. Ken, so I know we're, cause I want to talk about sales process and methodology and stuff like that, but you brought up something there as far as thought leader is concerned. Um, I got myself in trouble a while back, uh, because, uh, this was when like challenger sale was really, really big. Right. And I stood up on stage at, I think it was a sales hacker event. And I, and I just said, cause I was sick of it. I was like, could y'all do me a favor and stop teaching 22 year old kids how to be a fucking challenger, please. Like, like, because, uh, you know, it's kind of like Gary Vee says, like you can't be a 22 year old life coach, right? Like you have to have some sort of business acumen to be able to truly challenge.

And I mean, challenge in the true sense of, Hey, Jake, I appreciate the way you're looking at this, man. You buy this once a year. I buy, I sell people sell this every day, you know, like, let me help you understand. Right. So that that's true business acumen. You can do that. So let's talk, can I know, again, we're going to get back to sales methodology stuff here, but thought leadership, help me understand that, uh, that helped me understand. I got my perceptions of this, but look, if you've been in an industry, you're, you and I are, I don't, first of all, anybody who says they're a thought leader is not a thought leader, but, but I think you and I are in a position where how, how many years you've been selling?

Selling. I mean, I did telemarketing in college, so I mean, I'm probably at 20, almost 20 years, 18, 20 years. Same here. Right. So I'm, I'm about 20 years into selling how long you've been at scaled and doing actually consulting seven years, same here. Like I've been on my own for seven or eight years. So, so we're in a position where we know this industry inside and out, we know sales, we've lived sales. So I think we do have a little bit of credibility in talking about it, right. From a quote unquote thought leadership standpoint, but how, what are your thoughts on the, the kids, like, like the kids, like with these programs that you're talking about, the digital presidents and thought leadership, like in the twenties, how do you, how, how can you possibly be a thought leader in your twenties?

I think that's, I think it's a really great call out, John. And maybe, you know, we can, we can kind of dive into my, my thoughts around it and I'll, maybe I'll, I'll even share kind of my own experience. You know, I think I was really lucky in my career. One of them, I mean, after I worked in professional sports for two and a half years in sales and was successful. And then I ended up getting a role at career builder and they're kind of like heyday in the mid two thousands. And, you know, the good part is that they were, um, territory days, not vertical. And so over the course of four years there, I had to learn everything about every industry. And so I could talk intelligently about trends and things that were happening in the industry around human capital.

And I was confident that I knew more about trends in, you know, software engineer hiring in Sacramento than probably 90% of the HR people I talked to were business unit leaders. How old were you? 27, 28. How long did you, were you doing that before you felt that confident? I mean, I'm different though. Like me, shit, I came out the womb like that, man. Yeah, well, yeah. But, but, but here's the thing though. But truly confident, not bullshit confidence, not ego. I'm a student of the game, you know, to get to that point, I probably had 50 conversations with software engineer hiring managers that I sounded like a moron. Right. And so for me, you know, I, I knew more about this one thing, right?

It's not, I'm not an expert about everything. I know more about this very narrow thing than most of the people that I'm going to talk to. And I think that, that was for me where a lot of this came from, but I want to fast forward to kind of like why I think this is applicable, right? You don't have to be the thought. You don't have to be the thought leader. You can be the person who shares your journey. You can share other people's thoughts. And I think if I'm in my twenties now, so you, you rewind the play that I would be running is after every single sales call I had, I would go, Hey Susan, you know what? There were two things you said that were really interesting about the IOT and industrial manufacturing space.

It was this and this I'd love to, would you mind if I shared a quick note, like note about that to my, to other IOT professionals? Yeah, that's fine. Hey, had an amazing conversation with Sharon Henderson at Honeywell top two trends in 2020 for IOT and industrial and boom, boom, share. So I don't think you have to position yourself and be somebody you're not. It's even like, you know, you, you get, you know, thought leaders who are sales, you know, given sales advice at 25 or whatever, and they've been in sales for two years, but, but you know, you can share insights from other people and I think that's okay. You know, and I think that that's what most people have to do. And, and what, a lot of what we do, John, is we help people to understand how do you take that company content, the content, cause you're caught your, your company's putting out blog posts and eBooks and how do you just form a little bit of an original opinion around the three insights that your company put in that blog.

And that's really all we're talking about. I'm not trying to get people to front or act like they know more. It's how can you share what you've learned and how can you repurpose what your company's putting out there as opposed to just hitting share. And that, that's what I think a 20 year old could, can easily start to do immediately. Yeah. I mean, I say that all the time. It's like, you don't have to be the content creator. You, all you have to be as the content curator. If you're, if you go out, if you go out and educate yourself on, on the trends and the topics and you learn from people who are smarter than you, you know what I mean? And that's what I do. I mean, I go, I go follow people who are way smarter than me.

I go read their articles. And then to your point, and we, I, you know, I stole this from Gary Vee, but the whole context over content, right? I take their content. I go learn. And this is the lens that I, this is where social flipped for me was when I started looking at it as instead of just building a following and all that stuff, I looked at it as educating myself first. Like I should be educating myself on my industry, the trends, the person, like all that stuff. So, so if I put the lens on of learning first and then sharing only when I learned, that's when I started to build my brand in a very authentic way and also got people to pay attention and chime in because, you know, the example I use here is this.

And I mean, you write blogs, I write blogs. They're a pain in the ass to do like, it's a pain in the ass to write a blog, right? Especially a weekly blog for crying out loud. So say like, I say I take an hour, I'm sorry for the background noise here, but say I take an hour and I write a blog, right? And then we put it on SEO and we optimize it. You know, it's like a two to three hours into a decent blog post and you read my blog, right? So you read my blog because you're, you and I are connected. But then Richard Harris that say Richard and I aren't, aren't connected, but you and Richard are right. So you share my blog post and Richard sees my blog because you shared it. Who does he thank? Me.

Exactly. He doesn't thank me. I might get another follower. I might say, I might get somebody to say, oh, oh, well, look. I like John's voice, but they're not going to say, thanks so much, John, for writing that article. They're going to say, thanks, Jake, for actually sharing that article, right? Given your two cents. That's exactly right. And I think that that's why people shouldn't be so, you know, because for us in our, in our group, I mean, half of our battle is getting, if I can get people to post three times in two weeks, the, the immediate impact and results that they see helps to sustain them. And for a lot of people, it's just getting comfortable that with exactly what we're talking about.

You don't have to be the expert. You can just, you just need to be the curator. You need to be the person sharing what you're learning. And that's good enough for most industries. What is the impact? Those three. I'm curious because you're into this. I make suggestions, but I don't measure social. I say, look, this is a long-term play for your career. Talk to me tactically. Like those three posts that they do in those two weeks. Like, what are you seeing when they do that? I mean, if they already have a network, the engagement is literally like 500 to a thousand X because all they're doing is they stop because here's what, you know, if you go look at the average sales rep or even average corporate page, um, and you go just click the likes button, it's real simple exercise and go see who actually likes and comments when it, when a CEO posts, guess what, it's their employees and it's their buddies, et cetera, because they're not putting out content that the industry really cares about.

So as soon as we say, look, instead of putting out that, you know, five tips for better onboarding and we're, you know, in border, for example, and instead I say, you know, Hey, if you're trying to ramp salespeople here, the top two, three, you know, top two, three things you need to know. If you want to learn more, Hey, the links in the comments, that post, because it's from you, it's from an individual, that post is going to destroy anything you've ever put out. Yeah. And that's, that's where like Morgan, um, you know, when I hired him, what I, what I thought was interesting about what Morgan was doing was, you know, he was a 25 year old kid. Right. So again, who the fuck is he to, to tell me what to do?

Right. Um, and how, why the hell should I listen to him? But what, what I found, what I, what I liked about his approach was he knew he didn't, he wasn't the smartest kid, but he would read a book. He would read, uh, you know, some, some thing from some thought leader or some book or whatever it is. And he would then use it that day. Like, so he would try out whatever that was that day. And then at the end of the day, he would just light up his video and say, Hey, I read this book on blah, blah, blah. I tried it today. And this is what happened. It either worked or it didn't work. So I just wanted to kind of share that insight with you all. Like, I don't know if it's going to be valuable to you, but here's what happened.

Right. And so it wasn't, I'm the smart kid. It was like, I'm trying a bunch of shit here to your point, like sharing the journey, right? Like, Hey, I'm trying all this stuff out right now. And, and, and let me be the litmus test for you so that you don't have to try it out or, or I'll tell you, Hey, that's the stuff that you should do. And maybe don't do that. Cause I tried that. It was a disaster. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And I don't think, I don't think it matters. Right. That it doesn't matter if you've, you know, I, we got to move past this pays your dues and sales. I talked about this too. Like, why do we not have prodigies in sales? Right. I think it's bullshit. We do. How about this? You do have prodigies in sales.

You're probably just artificially suppressing them, you know? And I, I, it's kind of that same idea that there are people that are far superior, but we don't really know how to deal with that in sales. We have these career paths and you have to do this and that. And I think, you know, Morgan's a good example of a guy that, you know, tests, iterate, test, iterate, test, iterate, iterate, iterate. And like, again, he, his SDR game at his age is better than, you know, someone who's five, four or five years older than he is, you know, easily. And that's obviously why you, you scooped him up and, you know, it's a good one for you. Cool, man. So, so let's, so I think that that's tactical good for the, for the sales rep side of the house and the brand building, and especially the younger, uh, even the older ones starting to say, how do I get into this game?

Right. They got to, I mean, I mean, John, honestly, it's the older ones I'm more scared of. I am too. I'm more scared for the guys, you know, who are, you know, my age or age that are, you know, been doing the same thing. And candidly, I'm more scared for the VPs of sales, the VPs of sales who I'm the absolute most scared for, because they, they only know a world where you track activities. And when you can't, cause LinkedIn, I can't track, you know, 85% of the things that these people are doing. And if you're consistently running a sales organization where the main metric you're talking about is activities, and then you're acting your sales team to spend 20, 30% of their day on LinkedIn. It's a, you're creating a hypocrisy and you're creating a friction in your org that you just, that I don't think sales leaders know how to like, it's like, does not compute that.

I want them to build to your point that mid and long game. So then I come in and guess what? I've built my network. I come into August and I'm going to steamroll my number, but we're just so used to that myopic monthly, quarterly thinking that it's tough for them to wrap their head around that. And then how to track the impact of it. A hundred percent. And I think that's a good transition of old school, new school, right? Cause I think that's the, cause our generation and above, I mean, that's what we grew up, right? I mean, it was numbers game, man. Hit a hundred dials, hit 50 dials. Like there's your equation. Just go, go, go, go, go. And you know, and yeah, okay. When you got up to the huge enterprise level, it was about relationships and all that other stuff.

But if your ACV was anywhere between, you know, five grand and 50 grand, it was a, it was a pure numbers game. I don't know about you, but that was my life for the majority of the time. And, and, and because keep in mind, and the reason that worked is that every single activity was tied to generating a meeting, right? Right. It's not that now we have activities we're asking people to do that aren't their influence. We're asking them to share in step four, the sequence or cadence. We're asking them to share an ebook. Like that shit didn't work. Whenever all we have is calls, I'm not calling you to say, Hey, can I send, share some eBooks with you? Or like, you know, I'd like to network with you, but yeah, we're asking people to add.

And then we, in our strategy, we're, we're teaching teams how to add, you know, a hundred to 200 people a week. And what's the, you want to track the number of connections that they made? Yeah, sure. Of course you want to track that, but I don't, I can't tell you exactly how many connections it takes to get an appointment, you know, like, and I think that's the conundrum that we're in right now, this modern era of, you know, we've got over 1200 sales technologies. LinkedIn has emerged as a B2B powerhouse G2's emerge. We are just in a different world right now, but still running our sales orgs, you know, like it's 2010. I think you're spot on. I think we're in this, this really interesting transition phase because I think the way I look at it is because you and I, like we're right now are, you know, the Gen X generation, if you will, are they quote unquote leaders, right?

And we grew up in a volume game, but now everybody, we all know that quality is what we, I mean, account based marketing and all the, you know, personalization. Like, so conceptually we understand that quality is where we should go, but it's not, it's not easy to coach or train on quality and it, or measure quality in the, in the sense of quality outreach. What's really easy for a manager to coach on is metrics numbers. How many dials did you make? So is, is, is, is, so I know that quality is the answer. I know, I know that's what we should be doing, but that's a pain in the ass for me to figure out to your point, how many likes and shares, like, how's that going to drive? But what I can do is I can beat that head, that, that rep over the head and make 50 dials.

And if you don't make those 50 dials, I can, I can yell at you, right? Cause that's the easy way to manage. That's so I think that transition is happening right now. And it also falls unfortunately into those hundred and whatever, 1500 tech stack things where we're actually teaching the machines to do our jobs. And there's going to be this transition and, and this, this shift, if you will, or it's not going to be, we're, we are shifting into a world where those managers are going to become obsolete. And those reps that are literally just going through those, those motions, doing those activities are going to become obsolete. And so we need to figure out a way to, to, to leverage the technology to do the mundane bullshit stuff, but figure out how to coach and, and, and act towards quality in a lot of ways.

I agree. I mean, we're, that's why with a lot of our clients, John, I'm trying to push them here. Here's the thing, activity-based tracking makes sense. If all, most of your activities are tied to generating meeting, right? If you're in like a transactional sale and I'm only calling you to set a meeting, like, of course, tracking activity still makes sense, right? There are definitely times when that makes sense, but, but for our other clients, our mid-market enterprise, we're trying to move them to maybe having like call minimums at times, but really tracking what we call like the first outcome, which is what we call a meaningful conversation, which is, um, you're in the process of setting an appointment with the right person.

You got directed to the right person. Um, or like that you somehow, and again, we clearly define this for our clients and say, look, instead of saying you need to have 50 activities a day, you need to have four meaningful conversations a day. And it's very black or white. This is what's being tracked. This is what it is. You know, all the emails are feeding the Salesforce. If anybody wanted to inspect. And, and I feel like that we, that is what, how we engineer for quality that you're, it's the first outcome before meeting set verse something, a bunch of things, because guess what? I might only need 50 activities. You need, you know, 20 because you're better than me. You know, like it just, I really feel like we just need to shift.

And again, this is only if your team and you're asking your team to do activities that are non direct based to appointment setting. And that's on the SDR side in particular. Right. And I think we just have to start to realize that it's not, it's not fair. It's why people aren't hitting numbers. It's, there's a whole bunch of reasons. Like it's just, it's just not working. Right. I mean, and I think the data is there to support that, you know, why, why teams aren't hitting it is because we're just, we're, we're still driving to the old school metrics. And, but I mean, so talk to me also about like that, that shift in mentality of, of letting reps build their brand. And, and because this is, this is a huge problem I'm seeing in a lot of companies is that the marketing department is trying to control the message.

Right. And they, they really are uncomfortable with sales reps being personal brand ambassadors and sharing out content that they can't control. So are you seeing the same thing? And, and, and if so, what, what can a rep do? Right. Cause this is like perfect example, like James Buckley, like I just brought him on board, right? Like James was a, was a great example of somebody who was building his personal brand and I'm not going to name the companies, but there was a couple of them that he worked for in the past five or six years where they were just like, no, no, you like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't do that. And which was blowed my mind because what he was doing was he was driving all this activity towards him and he was representing their company.

And it was all in a positive way, even though it might not have been the corporate message or anything like that. So he ended up having to leave. But how do you, how do you coach a company first, but then the individuals within the company that understand that there's a bigger picture play here and brand building is important. I know it's not short-term results, but it's really critical for the success of myself and therefore the success of whoever I attract to my business. How can we address that? Yeah. I mean, the good part, it's, it's moving in the right direction. I mean, but yeah, no, look, we still see it in some of the companies. I'm not going to name names, but some of the companies that are doing it are probably the companies you'd be most shocked are doing it.

I'll leave it at that. Um, but I'll tell you what I'm seeing. I'm seeing that sales leaders get it. Sales leaders are like, look, my team is on LinkedIn all day. It makes sense that we should try to find a way to, you know, increase the engagement they're having. And so we, we kind of have two very distinct, we kind of isolate marketing for like, because sales gets it because they know their teams using it and marketing sometimes can be the, you know, the bad cop here. And, but market, and it's because marketing doesn't understand. Think about it. Marketing treats LinkedIn is a weird, weird, weird platform. It is this weird, it's like kind of social media. It's kind of like a website. It's kind of like your website on a, on a third party website.

It's like, and so I think the problem is most marketers have people just, you know, they're just reposting the same stuff on LinkedIn and they don't, they don't even see their own opportunity. They're going out and spending 20, 30, 50, a hundred thousand dollars a month on LinkedIn paid, not realizing that they could be generating hundreds of thousands of dollars in free organic traffic because LinkedIn organic right now is so cheap. It's zero. I mean, it costs nothing, you know? And so I think marketing, marketing doesn't even know how to do it for themselves because they're just resharing their own blog posts with no insights, just hoping to get the click download. And again, I won't name names of companies that I've seen this on.

It's like, if you're doing advertising on LinkedIn and I got to click your ad, then I click to learn more. Then I got to click your chat bot. Then I click like, what the fuck are you doing? So, so I think that's where a lot of this comes from is marketing hasn't taken in B2B, hasn't taken a serious enough look about how different LinkedIn is, LinkedIn is than Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. And so they don't know how to empower their team other than just to give them the blogs and to teach them how to just pull out the nuances. And that's a lot of the work that we have to do is kind of bridge that gap whenever possible. So yeah, I mean, the proof on that one is easy is you just look at, I mean, I just look at my corporate LinkedIn page versus my personal LinkedIn page.

We have something like, I don't know, 10,000, maybe, maybe, but I think it's sub 10,000 people following us like on our corporate page. I have 400,000 people following me on my personal LinkedIn page. I, you know what I mean? So that's a lot of people, man. Well, I, but I, I also was member, uh, 30,142. Like I was, I was a super, super, I was early, but I didn't start paying attention to it. So, but I mean, that's the point. Like people don't give a shit. Like when we post something on our corporate page, we get, I don't know, five, 10, 15 comments, you know, if you, you know, maybe a hundred likes or so in a thousand or so views. When I post something on my personal, we get thousands of, you know what I mean?

So in that brand that, cause it's just like people just don't trust corporate brands anymore. That's it, man. The stat, I think actually, John, I might, I might be off here. So don't beat me up on this, you know, universe. I think it's something like 12 to one. We trust an individual over a corporate. It's something like that. It's, it's double. I know it's like low double digits for sure. Um, but, but here's the other thing too. The other issue I see though, John, is that most people don't realize LinkedIn released a beta feature where corporate pages can now request people to connect. And so the other thing is these corporate pages, the people following the pages are all employees and ex-employees.

And so again, the company pages, they're not even thinking about it the right way. If I'm a company page, I need to be adding 200 of our target buyers every single month or every week. Why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you be inviting? So now fast forward a year, forget your stupid email newsletter. I've got 4,000 buyers over the course of the last, you know, nine months or whatever that are now all that now I can market to every single day on LinkedIn. And guess what? There is no unsubscribe blacklist. None of that. Like they're just not, they're not quite thinking of it. Think of, I think for a lot of how I look at this is like a sales rep connecting with a bunch of people and putting out content is modern day marketing automation.

Yeah. Drip, drip, drip. You know, it's the same thing for company pages. They should be doing it the exact same way, but they're just not, they're not thinking about that on like the marketing and sales side. And just realizing all we're doing is porting all that stuff over. And because it doesn't look and feel like what we're used to, you know, and we're tracking opens and conversions and, you know, because it doesn't quite look and feel, we struggle to, you know, kind of fully endorse it and get behind it. Yeah. I think that, that, that, that shift has to be made. I mean, John, it's going to happen, dude. You and I, you and I both know, man, this isn't a, this isn't a, if it's just a win. And the thing, the thing about LinkedIn that everyone can be, I think excited about is think about LinkedIn, right?

LinkedIn, you know, talent, their talent group is a big group. And so they, you know, if you look at what happened with Facebook and Instagram and how they just killed organic traffic, right. And there was a time and place where everyone remembers this, where it's all of a sudden, nobody saw your posts. Um, and LinkedIn though, because, you know, think about it, they've got recruiters on the website. Well, they want those recruiters to still share jobs, don't they? Right. And so therefore I think, you know, organic on LinkedIn is going to have a good run. You know, I think we, you know, it's going to continue to be a good part. You can go back to, but you and I both know this. We're not stupid that look, if I'm not, and I'll just tell you me as a business owner and John, I know you think this way too, or I think you think this way is look, I'm focusing on our YouTube game.

I'm focusing on our, like Instagram and other things too, because this will end too. And the companies that take advantage of this LinkedIn organic traffic now, I promise every marketer, again, it's going to be like Facebook, Instagram, and like late 2010s. I, I, it just, it's too good right now. Yeah. It's fun. It actually cracks me up that like guys like Gary Vee and, you know, dipshit, uh, Grant, fuck bad Cardone. Um, like they're all just, I'm not a big fan either, but fuck everything about that guy anyways. But, uh, but, but obviously I love Gary, but it's funny about how I'm now seeing them like say that all LinkedIn is the next big thing. It's like, where the fuck have you been for the past 10 years?

Like there's six, I think, I think LinkedIn just dropped top 650 million users or something ridiculous like that. So it's not new, but it's still new relatively based on its maturity. I think you're right. And it's growing. It's growing exponentially. Yeah, it's growing. Right. And that's, I mean, for a platform that's, you know, as old as it is for the growth rate to be where it is, it was just maturing. And it's like, it's becoming again, like, man, it is a, it's a weird beast, right? Like think of it's like, you know, there's some recruitment going on, a little marketing going on, a little sales nav. I mean, they've got like all this different stuff, you know? So it's kind of like, uh, it's, it's, it's interesting and like where they're going to take it from here, I think it's going to be, you know, super, super interesting too.

But you know, look, the market, the market kind of gets to tell you who you are. And I think the market's pushing it toward, you know, professional network. You know, and I'm, I'm kind of curious now, uh, now that Jeff's out, uh, I'm kind of curious the direction, you know, with Microsoft, with the acquisition and Jeff being out there now, I'm kind of curious where they're going to go with it. But, uh, but I think they're going to just double down on, on what is making them great. So awesome. Well, let's, let's chat about because of what we were, what we originally talked about as far as where the conversation was going modern sales, man. It's all, it's all top of funnel, middle funnel. I think we're going to talk about the middle funnel.

Well, yeah, no, I think we're going to talk like, so here's, you know, the word methodology. All right. Uh, Gong has this really cool blog, uh, post a while back that said, why your sales reps can't sell to the C-suite. Right. And, and they, uh, they gave, they walked through this four step process of how to sell to the C-suite. Right. And one of them is you come up with your nexus, which is this, you're, you're polarizing statement that you fundamentally believe that, that gets people to violently agree or violently disagree with you. Right. And it's, it should be like an, like the way they couch it is, it should be like an 80, 20, like 80% of the people should say, yep, I get where you're going.

20% of people should say, what the fuck? Challenger sale, Tim. It's like very similar. A hundred percent. Right. The second step is actually share a data point, which is a hundred percent challenge. So, right. So that, but that first part, that nexus, like one of theirs is it doesn't, it doesn't matter what you sell. It matters how you sell. Right. So it really doesn't matter what you sell in the future. It's all about how you sell, which I totally agree with. Mine is one of mine is I think methodology sales is dead. I think singular sales methodologies are dead because if you're not in a world where like, if you subscribe to a singular sales methodology, I, for me, it doesn't, it doesn't allow for flexibility.

It doesn't allow for adaption, adaptation or any of that. So if you're not in a world of agile selling right now, where you're constantly iterating like different approaches, then I think you're a dinosaur. Now I say that because there are, as you, you and I both know, there are methodology people out there, right? Like I'm a Miller Hyman guy. I'm a Sandler guy. And it's like, okay, good for you. If you fundamentally believe that Sandler is the only solution for your salute, for your company, then I'm not even going to have, I'm not even going to try to debate with you on this one. Cause we're so far off as far as our thought processes. Yeah. First of all, let me ask you, what is your definite?

Cause I don't think people really have, I think people throw the word methodology out there quite a bit. I don't necessarily know if they understand it. Cause when I break it down for them, they're like, Oh no, that's actually what I meant. What's your idea of a methodology, um, in the old school version. And then kind of where we think where it should be going. Yeah. I mean, we, we, we've got a very specific point of view on this at scaled and we kind of see like, if you're, if you're building a modern sales organization, and again, this is more of like the customer interaction, there's kind of like, there's actually four, there's four elements. There's the methodology, you know, what's called them, which is really like the words and the way that you interact with a customer.

That's, I mean, like that's kind of our simplified definition. The methodology is, this is based on this methodology, how I'm supposed to talk to you and what I'm supposed to say at different parts of the process. So like a, it's all common language, common language. We could, we could, yeah. And it's, which it gets into why I think methodologies like out of the box are also like not as valuable. Right. Then below methodology, you have competencies or behaviors, which are the skills that I'm building for my reps to then they can, so they can better show up for this, for the, uh, for the client and the customer as well too. So to me, you've got to, these two things are very different. There's the words that they say.

And like, I can, and then, and then if you look to the side, there's coaching, which as a, as a leader, I need to know how to coach the methodology and coach to the skills or two different things, me giving you deal advice or tips and tricks. That's the methodology coaching, but the skill building is where you and I, John are working over the next three months to be better at active listening, totally different things. And, and, and then the sales process is the rails. So it's, it's where the competencies and the methodology show up at each step, you know, understands customers business, you know, is in the beginning. Right. And now you're doing kind of a gain commitment and buy-in throughout.

Right. But you know, it's the method, the process is where you're executing the parts of the methodology and where the competencies show up and good leaders need to know how to coach to both, right? Really all three. Right. And so that, that's our, our framework. And so whenever we work with companies, that's how we kind of think about this. And sometimes, you know it's, it's there, it's more of a competency problem. They actually have like a pretty decent methodology already is that they're not doing any long-term skill building. That's why I got into it with this coach. These people that do like sales coaching, they're like, they do like they, you parachute in and they just like, listen to calls.

And and I got into it with this dude because he's like, yeah, so we listened to a call, we give the rep feedback and did it. And it goes on. I'm like, so you listen to one call and you can give a rep feedback. Well, yeah, of course I go, well, how much feedback? Well, we, you know, we point out the different pieces. I'm like, don't you have to see a pattern? You know, like, and that, and the pattern is where I then learn the skill building that we have to do together. It's easy. Anyone can play Monday morning quarterback. You or I, none of us run a perfect call every time, you know, like, and so I feel like that's a whole other thing about how we're, you know, that's put out a really cool piece, um, last week about, uh, that this year, 2019 was the youngest, least experienced group of managers we've ever promoted.

And so coaching to the methodology, that's a whole other thing. We might even just want to table it, but that's a whole other like kick that I'm on too, is just like you spend more time onboarding a sales development rep than you do a manager who's managing 10 people and 25 million. Don't even start. I mean, like sales training is, you know, sales training for individual sales reps is lacking, but I mean, it's even, it's a thousand times worth for managers. They just promote the best manager. They promote the best rep and they say, good luck. Right. Makes no sense to me at all. So anyway, going back to methodology, which is your real question. So, so to me, that that's what it is. And the issue that right now that I see with methodologies is either they're really good at one part of it, which is fine.

Right. Like that, that's good. Right. Like I think Sandler in particular, right. They kind of focus on that discovery process. Great for discovery. Yeah. So like, that's kind of like their jam. The issue that I see right now, and kind of our, our, you know, point on this is that none of these methodologies think about the customer or the buyer. I feel like we are plugging in these methodologies, which are trying to force buyers into this new process, where again, we're, we all know that buyers have access to more information. They want less friction in the process. These methodologies, John were built. I mean, challenger sales, the newest, and this is based off of data in 2010 and before most of these methodologies, man, are literally having barely evolved and they are 20, 30 plus years old and the access to like, but the buyer behavior has changed completely.

And so we're still, and it's the same thing with predictable revenue. You know, an inbound SDR was cool. Started on that. Yeah. An inbound SDR was cool. Whenever I had to get the information from you, when this, when the B2B sales organization was the only person with access to information, people put up with your bullshit. They put up with the gate and the this and the that. But now that it's like, dude, what do you mean? There's like two blog posts, 2 million blog posts produced every day. You know, how many of our eBooks there are per day. And so I feel like the whole customer framework and the whole customer side is where methodologies really fall down, that they are just not adapting to the way that the access to information and the way that buyers want to buy because our consumer patterns have changed so much that now we expect that in all facets of life, all facets, including, you know, B2B and even mid-market enterprise sales.

Yeah. I mean, I, I've been on this kick for a while. I, I think the, the predictable revenue model, um, it was great for us in the sense of how to scale a business. Like if you needed to scale an organization, it's fantastic because you know, you bring in young kids, you, you, you have them hyper-focus on just one very small part of the sales process, right? Inbound leads, they get their ears, you know, they make their ears bleed and you do with some stuff. But, um, but I also, and then they flip to the outbound and then they do that and then they flip to AE and whatever. But two things on that one. One is, I think it's stunted the growth of sales professionals because you know, when you and I were first started, like, it was like, here's your fucking territory kid.

Good luck. And you either sank or swam. And if you sank, you were out. But if you swam, man, you became a well-rounded sales rep real fucking fast. Whereas now it takes a rep 10 years to get to the point where they're actually a fully well-rounded. And then, but the problem is, is once they get to that, like, upper level of their career, they stop doing all the other stuff. They don't do the prospecting anymore because, well, now, because I have an SDR to do it. So that's a problem, I think, with predictable revenue and the segmentation of roles. The other part, though, that I think is even worse, and that's what you brought up, is it is not customer-centric in any way, shape, or form. Like, who the fuck wants to be handed off five times before they actually talk to somebody who knows what the fuck they're talking about?

You know what I mean? Like, it is brutal where it's like, and this is where Kevin Dorsey and I are working on this. We're working on something for Rev 2020 coming up here that we're going to go up on stage. Because I just didn't want to go up and do a bullshit keynote. Just, you know what I mean? Like, I've already said too much, you know? So I want to do something interesting. So Kevin and I are going to get up there, and we're going to talk about exactly this, like what it's like to be a buyer in this world of predictable revenue and in this world of segmentation. And it was funny because he, and we're going to stem off this story, I had a, I'm not going to name the vendor, but the CEO of the vendor called me up and said, hey, John, I see you know, like I see you're connected to Kevin.

We're trying to sell them on our platform, and we're up against a head-to-head with this other platform. Could you do me a favor and put a good word in for us? And I was like, sure, whatever. So I called up Kevin. I was like, yo, what's up, man? Hey, I just want, like for whatever it's worth, my weight's behind this. And he's like, man, he's like, I've been trying to give them the, I've been trying to give them my business, but they're fucking it up. And he told me, he goes, and this is where the conversation came up between a sophisticated buyer and an unsophisticated buyer. If you're an unsophisticated buyer, if you're somebody who isn't 70% of the way through the sales process, done your research, then I understand bringing them through every single step through the qualification.

Now let me do the demo. Now let me bring my AC in. Now let me bring my, you know what I mean? Because look, you don't know how to make this decision. I got to kind of walk you through this process. But if you're a sophisticated buyer, which more and more buyers are becoming sophisticated, if you push me through that process, you are going to lose me so fast. It's like, like if I ask, if I, if I come to a kid and I say, look, here's what I'm doing. Here's what I need. Show me that if it does that. And then just tell me how much this thing costs. And if it's in the range, I'm in, right? If that kid backs up and says, well, John, and starts going through Bant and starts, you know, and starts droning through their PowerPoint presentation about how their demo and shows me every freaking thing, single thing about their entire organization.

Like I'm going to, I'm going to end that conversation within 10 minutes and be like, nevermind, I'll go find somebody else. Cause I'm like, I like time to value. Right. So, so how, first of all, I think we're like, how do you determine when that's necessary? Like, how do you help reps figure out? Because, because there is the, so say I come to you, Jake and I'm like, Jake, look, I've, you know, I'm told like it's an inbound lead, Jake. So how much does your consulting cost? Right now there's two people. Again, there's the person like me who has probably gone on your website and read a bunch of shit and kind of looked at your G2 crowd reviews and that type of stuff. And I really just want to know that price.

And that's going to help me make this decision. Then there's the other person that's just been told to go do that and is looking for the price. So how do you help a kid figure out which one is which and how to guide that buyer through that journey? Cause there are two different journeys. Yeah. Well, I think, look, the other thing is we, we, we practice radical transparency, meaning we've got, we even have an email that, um, you know, our sales, Jenny or someone on the team will send in advance of a meeting. And it says, look, here's what we do based on what we do. Here's usually how much that costs. Like we'll send that in advance. Wait a minute. Before the, even before the call call? Yeah, sometimes.

Yeah. Holy shit. All right. Because it's like, look, here's the thing. Like, especially, especially if they're, you know, they're, they're kind of like in our, you know, you know, no CP or something like that, but we'll do it in it because here's the thing. There's a high likelihood. Again, if you're coming in with intent, you're already comparing us to other people. Right. And so we, you know, yeah. I mean, sometimes again, like sometimes, you know, we won't, if we feel again, if like, maybe it's like a personal connection or something, but if it's like an inbound lead, then yeah, I mean, we've got a whole email. We just tee up that has like, here's what we do. Well, we do the same thing. We're trying to remove the friction, man.

Well, we do the same thing. Like, cause like, I mean, I think you and I are similar as far as our ICP is concerned and that type of thing. And like what, what somebody's ACV is. And so we, that's actually the information that they fill out before they even come to us. Yeah. And, and if I can see they only have six or seven reps and their ACV is a couple thousand bucks, I do the exact same thing. I go, look, I just want to let you know out of the gate. Yeah. We do have an online portal that has all that stuff. And here's a way to look at that. And it's maybe 2,500 bucks. But if you're looking for onsite training, we're in the 15 to $20,000 range to start. If that's going to be an issue, like let's let, you know, I have some other recommendations I can make for you, but I don't want to waste your time.

Yeah, that's good. I think that's helpful for people. But how do you, how do you, but that's you and me as business owners, man. Like we're, we're business owners. We can be like, we know what the fuck we're talking we know. Like what, so you got that rep though, that, that has somebody like you or me calling into the, you have that SDR BDR where, where somebody like you or me calls into them and it's pretty pushy, like with what we want. Right. How do you control that? How do you, how do you give the reps the tools to control that? Look, I mean, again, this is a broader conversation because I blame leaders. I mean, this isn't, they're just doing what they're told to do. You know what I mean?

Like the issue now, granted like that they can't, they can only absolve from part of this culpability. Like you got to give a shit. You know what I mean? Like, look, man, I figured out pretty early in my, once I go post college, I was like, man, I like sales. And so I became a student of it. And so I feel like, look, if you don't care about the industry that you sell in, if you don't care about listening, then one, you're going to be replaced because those are kind of the two things that I, you know, I can't get a computer to do or to emulate. So I feel like step one is you got to care about helping people. And this is, this sounds as it's about to come out of my mouth. I'm like, this is cliche as shit, but you know, it really is like, it's, you got to be curious and you got an, I don't give a shit about the sale.

My job is to get John inbound on his correct path. How do you teach that? How do you teach genuine? I've been struggling this one for, I've asked this to a lot of different people who've come on this podcast and just outside the podcast too. Like, can you teach genuine curiosity? All right. So this is a great question. So here's the answer. I think even one, I would never coach a rep. I never, like I, we try to train leaders. There's a client of ours, a big client of ours that, you know, I challenged them. I go, guys, stop telling your people to be more curious. It's ambiguous, et cetera. So what I hear, what I'll, here's what I'll do. I'll tell you what are the skills that go into that mimic curiosity.

So, and then we can talk through it that way. The first is prep and research. If you do your prep and you understand their industry, you are then able to be more curious because you know where to go. So prep and research, if you're not good at that, you can't look curious. Okay. Second, if you don't ask follow-on questions, the biggest hack that I have is just ask why two times. Someone says something. Okay, great. Tell me more about that. Okay. Interesting. Tell me more about that. So if you can't do that, then you can't do that. The third is active listening. For me, I usually like to talk over people. I had a leader when I was 26. She goes, Jake, you talk over people. I was like full of shit.

She goes, listen to the call. Sure enough. I talk over people. So what she taught me to do is how to hit the mute button. So I asked a question and I hit the mute button and that forces me to shut up. And then they start doing things. So by active listening, by prepping and by asking follow-on questions, I can kind of teach someone how to be curious. Like they might not be an A player at it, but those are kind of the three elements that we've seen across the board that equal the equivalent of what other people might determine. Cause again, if you tell me as a rep, Jake, be more curious. I'm like, what do you mean? But instead I can coach you, John, to listen more effectively. And what that looks like, I can coach you on how to ask the follow-on question and I can, I can teach you how to prep.

So those are very tangible things that I can teach you that aren't that, that mimic curiosity. Can you teach somebody how to give a shit? I don't need you. I mean, like, look, this is my, I can train an army of B players, dude. Like I give a shit makes you an A. If you just, if you just literally the three things I just talked about, I can get you to quote it every other month. If you just do the right prep, ask the question and the follow-on question and then make sure that you listen and make them feel heard and just do a recap after every three questions and you just follow the machine, I can get you to quote every other month. Right now. Now I can't get you to a player, right? That's the, that's the big difference.

You'll never be an A player. You'll be okay. Can you, so I'm going to ask another question. Can you teach drive? Can you teach, can you teach work ethic and drive? Cause I agree with you. I agree with you on the, I think I can give you tools to be quote unquote curious and listen better. Can you keep, can you teach work ethic? Real work ethic. Not like the Instagram fucking world that we're in where everybody sees, it seems like everybody's working hard, but really a behind the scenes ain't doing shit. Like you teach drive. You know what you can do? You know what you can probably, again, I'm just thinking of people in my career that I've led or kind of got to that next step in their career and you know how they came to me.

Right? Like that's kind of what I think about is, you know, where did this person come when they came to me and, and where did they leave afterwards? It's probably the answer is a little bit of yes and mostly no. Meaning if you, if you have the potential and maybe, maybe the thing that's stopping you from really being motivated is maybe really, really, really suck at time management. And so like you're, you're constantly feel defeated and overwhelmed, et cetera. And maybe I can remove some barriers to let it shine through more. You know, that, that would probably be the only thing that I would say like, yeah, maybe I can teach that, you know, maybe, maybe I can help you to teach. I can help to teach how to get through the other stuff that might stop your drive from happening.

Or maybe, maybe there's a limiting belief that actually would probably be it too. John is like, there's some limited belief, maybe in your childhood, maybe you grew up in a bad home. Maybe your dad was abusive. Maybe, you know, something else happened. Maybe you got into credit card debt and maybe you went ahead of like, there's all people come into this world with so much shit. And then they have a limiting belief that stops. John, I don't even think I can do that. I've been told my whole life that I'm not shit or whatever it is. So if I can remove barriers, then maybe drive can shine through. But, you know, I think that that part of that's about that, that human. So, uh, you know, I don't know if that's teaching them drive, but I do think that there are things that you could maybe remove that could, that where people might have more drive than we give them credit for, but because of other things and limiting beliefs, they're not able to do that.

That's my fear, man. I fear that there are people out there who think they work hard, but they don't know what hard work is. They, they, they think they have work ethic, but they don't really. And I, and, and those are the ones who are dangerous to me. The ones who know they're like, I'm a lazy asshole. It's like, okay, good. Like, at least you do like yourself aware. Uh, and, and, you know, then I don't know, just then hit your number. Okay. Just make sure you show up and you do your job and whatever it is. But it's those people that, that, that are like, ah, I'm a baller. Oh, oh, I worked my ass off. And they, they, they mistake busy work for hard work. They, they mistake the perception of work for the actuality of work.

And, and I don't know how to get through to those people to, to get them to realize like without, I mean, without ripping them down to the core and, and showing them how they're full of shit. I have a hard time figuring out how to connect at that level. I feel you. We take like my, my best advice to anyone listening is we take the exact, you know, again, and this is whenever we work with companies on coaching too, um, and with their leadership and then how to build a coaching, you know, it's, you don't do it by giving advice. You do it by asking questions and I can't, I'm not going to be able to give you drive, but what I might be able to do is, is let you pull it out of yourself. Yeah. Look, let's talk about it.

What's stopping, you know, this behavior, like tell me what's stopping it and coming from a place of where they feel, cause I get it, man. I see it too. And my, that's my instinct too. And I don't think this is a, this isn't a, an innate strength of mine. It's not, I've just, I'm much more of an advice. It's why I'm good at consulting, right? But I, but over the years I trained myself as a CEO, as a fellow CEO, you know, this it's, you know, you've got to empower people. And so I think that that's it, that, you know, good leadership is, is asking those questions and maybe it's there and maybe it's not. And maybe, and also maybe it's not there right now. Maybe they're going through some stuff and it doesn't mean I'm going to stop, but I'm going to divert energy to where I think maybe I can get that drive to come out.

So yeah, it's, it's, we covered some stuff today, man. Yeah. Yeah. We went all over the place on this one, but I think that, I mean, but, but those are the key factors to success. You know what I mean? I mean, being at like the things that we hit on, right? Like your personal brand and giving a shit about, about what you're putting out there and learning, uh, you know, not following a methodology just to follow a methodology, but actually learning about, you know, and caring about what other people, uh, having drive and work ethic at a real, real level. You know what I mean? These are all things that I think are, are, are, are catalysts to success. Um, but also inhibitors. If, if, if you just go through the motions and you're not paying attention and you're not being self-reflective and you know, those types of things and you're not learning, then, then you're to your point, like we can coach B players all, all day long to hit quota.

Like that's, that's fine. And, and look, most organizations to be quite honest are filled with B players. So that's the, that's the meat of the, of the group. Right. But man, if you ever want to get to that, that, that light, that next step, that, that eight, the true a player status, right? Like there's, there's, there's some shit that you have to look inside to, to figure out. That's it. And the only people I ever see get there are the people that, that either are in the right place at the right, you know, it's just like that thing fits for them or it's the people, the people that do it job over job over job are the people that are self-reflective. I mean, I think that your ability to coach yourself and take your own professional development to that next tier is, is the most important skill that you can, you can have.

And, you know, that is something that, but again, you know, it can, I feel like, you know, with the right guiding, you can, you can unlock it in some people, you know, you can, you can get them to see that, you know, for me, I was very fortunate. My first job out of college, I was naturally good at sales and I used to love to read, but I, you know, in college, you don't read as much. And there was a guy who was there and he started, you know, feed me sales books, you know, and started, you know, and, and that, that kind of reawoke my like quest for learning again. You can go to college, right? You should be on a quest for learning. Right. Sure. And so I was on a quest for weed and booze. Five and a half years at Missouri state.

Let's put it right. So, so I, uh, but yeah, I mean, so, so I feel like, look, I've had some experiences myself and, and, you know, there's nothing wrong with learning a process. So if you go in and you learn a methodology, you know, I had a mentor who told me, you know, and I was struggling. I would say this, when I started at career builder, I was two months in and I, or maybe a month and a half in, and I was like one of eight people in this training class. And I was like, I hadn't sold anything. And I was like the second to last. I'm like, man, I'm good. I know I'm good. And he pulled me to the room. He's like, Jake, look, we have a process here. Like, and it's this, this, this, this, this, this.

And it was like an elements of spin and challenge, all this stuff. He goes, Jake, do you think we're stupid? He goes, do you think we train a thousand salespeople on this process because it's stupid? And that was like this massive light bulb. I'm like, no, probably not. Just do it. And it, man. And then I closed 60,000 in new business next month. And so I think there's nothing wrong with learning a framework. And then I iterate and iterate and iterate and iterate. Now that I've got my baseline, then I go do it. And I think too many people, salespeople are out there reinventing the wheel 24 seven. Cause one, their, their companies aren't giving them the training that they need to learn the process.

You know, there's no playbook. There's no method. They don't even have it, but that's where methodologies fall down is that they say to stay rigid. And again, it's like that idea that the customers has really, really, really evolved. And man, I just don't think any of the methodologies fully appreciate that evolution to your point, to triage people. The other thing we never talked about, I know we're, I know we're out of time, but the other thing we didn't really talk about is, um, the, the other fall down of methodologies. They were all built in a time where there was one buyer. It was get to the decision maker, get to, I mean, how many times in your career have you heard get to the decision maker?

Now Gartner did a study. It's like in a small, it's, you know, 200 person company, there's five to seven people involved, not a single methodology addresses multiple stakeholders and how to manage multiple stakeholders in a process, not a single methodology. Well, that's why challenger sale came out with challenger customer. Yeah. Right. Because they realized that, oh shit. Yeah. You can challenge one person all day long, but if you don't have five other people on board on this, and I think the, the last point to what you just made there was, I think all these old methodologies, they're put, they're trying to put lipstick on a pig. You know what I mean? They're, they're, they're trying to take what they've built their whole businesses off of and then try to kind of make it new wage.

Right. And, and, and make it sound like it's like the, like the new thing, but it's really still the old shit. And so if you're not constantly iterating, you're dying these days. So let's, let's leave it at that. I think we are, uh, we are, we, what we, as always, uh, Jake and I think you and I could talk for fucking days about this shit. Um, get two sales guys talking. Um, but, uh, let's do this. Uh, I'm going, and I will just let you know, just to let everybody else know there is a, uh, Kansas city chiefs, uh, hat in the mail. It didn't show up today. I was going to wear it for this. I will do a quick intro, uh, for this podcast with that hat on for anybody who's going to watch it. Cause I have to take my medicine.

We lost the fucking game and I'm, I'm, I do not welch on bets. That is one thing. My word is my bond. So I will put a, I will put that hat on. I will do the intro for this video and I'll put it out there. I cannot wait. Right. I cannot wait. Go chiefs. I told you, like, I mean, you were there when I had, uh, uh, at sales loft, uh, when I had, uh, Kyle get up on stage with a Patriots Jersey. Did you have that? Did you see that one? We made that bet against Atlanta and he, he had to stand up in front of 2000, like a thousand people and put on a Patriots Jersey already hated it. So anyways, brother, uh, talk to me about, uh, tell everybody where they can find out more information about you, where they want to go, what you're talking about these days, obviously look, you know, LinkedIn, I'm, I'm pretty active.

If you don't follow me there, it's just, you know, forward slash Jake Dunlap. Um, you know, you go to jakedunlap.com. We've got a lot of events and other details there. And then the website scaled S K A L E D.com. Um, yeah, you can check out again, some of the things that we talked about in the beginning, you know, what we're doing around digital presence, I think is really special and different and, you know, kind of the next evolution of what, you know, social selling and some other people are peddling. So, you know, any of those places you can get the real from me and, you know, Instagram, Jake underscore Dunlap underscore, you know, try to do some behind the scenes stuff too. Awesome. Yeah.

I've had actually, I like your Instagram game, man, these days. Uh, that's a, I've been working on it. I'm paying attention to that. So awesome, brother. Well, thank you so much for coming on board. Hopefully y'all got as much value out of this conversation as I did. And as I say all the time, uh, even if you're having a shitty day, go out and make somebody happy, go out and make somebody smile. Cause no matter how bad your day went, if it, uh, you made somebody smile, you know, you had a good day. So thank you all very much. And thank you, Jake, and have a great week, everybody. And thank you all for joining us today, and thank you all for joining us today. And thank you all for joining us today and thank you all for joining us today.

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