140: True Enterprise Selling With Ian Koniak

Thank you to our sponsors, LeadIQ, Costello, SalesLoft, WorkRamp, and Dialpad for helping us produce this podcast. Head over to jbarrows.com slash blog for the highlights of this episode and explore resources you can use right away. Let's make it happen. Good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrows with Make It Happen Mondays. Hope you all had a fantastic weekend. I am sitting here with a very interesting guest who has actually been, for the past three years, if not the, one of the top enterprise sellers at salesforce.com, which is one of my favorite and best and biggest customers. Ian Cognac, how's it going, brother? How you doing? What's up, my man? Great to be here. Doing great. Yeah, thanks for coming on, man.

So talk to people a little. Let's give some context for this conversation. Because a lot of times with this podcast, I talk, you know, there's a little bit of a prospecting angle to it, because that's kind of one of my specialties as far as, you know, just getting out there, SDRs and BDRs. And you're one of the first reps I've had specifically around talking about, like, real enterprise selling. You know, not like bullshit enterprise selling, but, like, actually selling those. I mean, what's one of the biggest deals you've closed, just out of curiosity? Berkshire Hathaway is a pretty big one. Activision Blizzard, the gaming company is another big one. I've had a bunch, but those are... In the millions, right?

I mean, we don't have to say the number, but in the millions, right? These are contracts that are either seven figures or eight figures for the term of the contract. Typically five years, multi-million per year is what we aim for. Love it. But you got your... And this is where our commonality comes in. You got your start in copier sales, right? I got mine in Xerox. You were at Ricoh, right? That's right. So walk me through, like, that... Like, you got into... Walk me through that background, right? You got into copier sales, and then you made the transition to Salesforce. And then we'll kind of talk about that change that you made there. But talk to you about your background in Ricoh first. Yeah.

So I didn't know I'd get into sales. Candidly, I thought I'd be a photojournalist. I lived in South America for a year. I taught English. Didn't know what I wanted to do. Ended up falling in love with somebody there and couldn't stay with them because I had to go back. And you can't get a visa from Venezuela unless you're a student. And so I had to figure out a way to save enough money to get, you know, my ex-girlfriend to not only to the U.S., but also put her through college and support both of us at the ripe age of 24. So the only job I could really think of was sales. And I had heard, you know, sales is a profession where you eat what you kill and your income. I truly was purely money motivated getting in.

And I had to succeed if I didn't have success that I wouldn't be able to be with somebody who I thought I was going to spend my life with. And that's a whole different story. But I ended up getting into copiers and I just really worked my tail off, did a ton of cold calling, a lot of prospecting. I built that grit and I built that kind of that muscle of not hearing rejection and just keeping going. And it really served me well. I mean, I ended up becoming the top performer at Rico. There were thousands of reps and I got promoted into sales manager. And then I was a district manager and finally a director of sales. I was the youngest director of sales in the company. I had 70 reps, 10 sales managers.

And I read an article in Forbes magazine from Fortune or from, yeah, it was Forbes. It wasn't Fortune. And it was, it talked about Salesforce and the average enterprise income from an enterprise AE at Salesforce, it said was around 300,000 and I had a team of 80. I was running a $60 million business and I was making between two and 250 as the number one rep. So I, I, or as the number one director of sales. And I said, look, if this is the max that I can do in this industry, I am completely playing not only on the wrong team, but I'm playing the wrong sport. And that's when I discovered the sport of software and enterprise sales. And it was really, you know, the main reason. So I said, you know what?

And I let my ego at the door. I said, I don't need to be a manager with a huge team and rise the ranks. I want to get into Salesforce. And I tried a few times. I actually got rejected, didn't get the job. And finally met a guy who was willing to bet on me. And he came from copiers and printers. He actually worked at HP and he knew the pedigree. He knew kind of the DNA that we had. And he said, you know what? Winners win. And, you know, I'll, I'm willing to bet on you. And that was how I got started at Salesforce seven years ago. It's my eighth year now. Love it. I want to back up a little bit on the copy. Because you said you kind of developed the grit, if you will. Yep. And kind of that just whatever, rejections, rejection.

I'm going to keep moving forward here. Was that like a, was that, I mean, do you think you've always been pretty driven as an individual and had that innate in you? Or did you have to learn that along the way? It's interesting because it wasn't something, the reason I went into sales is, is they, there was a flyer in this marketing and sales conference I went to. And it said, first year, make 50K, second year, 75 plus, third year, 100 plus, guaranteed. I remember it was a big guarantee. And I went into my interview and I said, what do I need to do to get there, right? 50K. I had to move back with my parents. It was all going to be my savings. That would have been enough to get my, my ex to the US.

I'm like, tell me what I have to do. And they said, you have to do two appointments and you have to set two appointments every single day. And typically, you know, that might take 30 cold calls, door knocks. It's going to take a couple hours on the phone, but it doesn't matter how much prospecting you do. You have to do two and set two. If you do two and you set two, then you're always doing 10 a week. And our ratios are, if you do 10 appointments, then you could have four opportunities that'll be generated. Even if you're terrible, 40% of the people will have an opportunity. If you're the worst closer in the world, you're going to close one out of those four, which means based on your commissions and our targets, you'll make this target.

And so that was my mission. Every single day I was out to do two and set two. And then we had ride days and I packed in those ride days every week with my sales manager. I watched, I modeled it, but it was never like, I like rejection. It was just, if I was going to set two appointments, I had to deal with rejection. So I just did it so much. I really got used to it. It became normal. And I realized like a lot of the people that rejected me are the ones that actually have need. And that was just their walls going up. And it really, like, I didn't hear it after a certain point because I was, um, truly, uh, just so it was almost robotic in, in my approach of doing so many cold calls to set those appointments.

So yeah, it was, it wasn't natural. It's, I don't think it's natural to anyone to answer. No, it definitely isn't. And, and, but I think that it's a testament to goal setting, right? Because I don't like, it's funny. A lot of people come to me and they say, Hey John, you know, I'm thinking about changing, you know, jobs or companies or whatever it is. And, you know, any suggestions. And my, my, my, my, my ass these days is, well, what's your goal? Like, you know, what, like five years out, what's your, what's your personal goal? Forget about your financial goal for a second. What's your personal, like, where do you want to be in five years? What do you want to do? Because that will drive everything else, right?

Because if you don't have a goal, you're just going to fart around and look for shitty, you know, a little bit better shitty companies, you know what I mean? To work for. But if you have a goal, like getting your girlfriend to the United States and paying for this and that type of thing, it's like, fuck it, man. I'll eat a shit sandwich here for, for a couple of years if I need to, if it's going to get me to that next level. Right. That's exactly right. Love it. That's exactly right. It's not a matter. It, it, it, I tell a lot of people because I mentor and I coach and I I'm like, it's not a matter of wanting to succeed. I had to succeed. When you have to succeed because there's no other option, right?

If, if it's fight or flight, if, you know, someone's coming at you with a gun, you're going to run away or you're going to, you know, there's, there's like, that's, that's kind of how I viewed my, my job is, is I could not, um, you know, and, and there were all kinds of obstacles during that first year. But at the end of the day, when you have a will that, that is, you know, failure is not an option when it's just like your, your work for NASA and you're going to launch a rocket up in space and there's humans on there with families. Like you are going to make sure that thing works. And that was kind of the, you know, the stakes that I felt I had. And it wasn't something I had to will myself into doing.

I just did it because I had to do it in order to hit my goals. So that's something important. You eat once I got her here, then my goals reset. And it's like, you always have to kind of reset that vision or else sales is going to feel like a grind. Sales is going to feel like, why am I doing this? And that's when you lose the motivation. That's when you stop doing the activity. So you always have to be recalibrating each year and keep kind of setting bigger goals and kind of raising, raising the stakes or else it's going to get stagnant. And that's when you stop working. That's when it gets dangerous. And that's also when you stop getting better too. Right. And when you stop getting better, then you, then in my opinion, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse.

So because somebody else is getting better. So you made that transition to Salesforce, right? You said, okay, I want to level up, right? There's, there's, there's something else out there. I've kind of reached the peak here. You've, and you, and you know, you've been there now since 2013, right? Is when you joined Salesforce, give or take. Yeah. Yeah. This is my end year. Right. And so the first year you were there, you had said earlier when we were prepping for this, that you kind of took a similar approach, right? Like, so you took your, what you knew at Xerox and it was a numbers game and this many meetings and that type of thing. But now you're enterprise selling, right? And, and walk me through that experience, kind of the first, like that transition of, of product sales to service, to, to, uh, to solution sales, if you will, and, and, and SaaS sales and, and what kind of, what you realized pretty early on.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, because I had a lot of success and not only as an individual contributor, I was teaching this. I came in fairly arrogant. I came in thinking that I can do the same thing and get positive results. And I would say, um, that arrogance was reinforced because I ended up hitting my quota my first year. Okay. And the way I did it is I actually, um, track down a CIO. It was a big hospital, St. Joseph health. I think they're now Providence, St. St. Joseph. They were acquired, but we ended up selling a license for every employee. It was a multimillion dollar deal. And I'm not going to say I got lucky because I don't believe in luck. I think hard work, you know, hard work brings, brings luck.

Cause you're, you're there when there's opportunities. So, um, I ended up, you know, emailing the CIO and calling him like 15 times. And every time was a different message. And he was like, Ian, no one's ever done this to me. I'm like, well, you haven't met me. So it's like, they're not enterprise software. They're not like that. Right. They don't want to offend people. These are long-term relationships. You don't want to burn bridges. Well, that's all I knew. Right. So I literally like didn't take no. And eventually you told me your persistence is what, what got there. So meanwhile, I hit my number. I ended up getting this big deal and I continue doing that. And the couple of years after that, that's when I actually really struggled.

I didn't hit my plan. And I, I had always treated activity yields, pipeline yields results. And that's not, and I learned the hard way. I learned through, unfortunately, um, you know, my, I think it's a symptom, a lot of sales salespeople, you think you're, um, only as good as your performance. So if you're hitting your plan, you feel great about yourself. If you're not, you feel like you're a shitty person and it translates to everything. It could translate to your family. And I, I was number one victim of that. And that's kind of what propelled me in my journey to self-development as I, um, you know, I was so down on myself because I wasn't hitting my numbers. I missed my numbers two years in a row.

I said, you know, I was looking at Microsoft. I was going to change companies. Didn't look in the mirror, right? All had to be external forces. Um, and finally I met a woman, um, named Jen Legalee and she was in another division at Salesforce. And she actually gave me an opportunity to switch to the commercial division, which was a little more at bats. It was a little going after a little more accounts. And I said, maybe I need this because the way I sell, I'm just, you know, high velocity, et cetera. And basically I took that approach a little more suited towards selling to the small business. And I took it to commercial and, um, I, I was very close actually. I finished like 97% that first plan.

So here I am missing my number three years in a row, too bad. And then one, like barely, I mean, I was technically over in my multi-year, but I missed it by a few thousand in my full, full quota. So I, I, at that point I said, you know what, this way of selling this high activity, hard closing, hard charging, go to the next one after you sell, isn't working for me. I need help. And I ended up joining a sales training program where I invested, um, you know, 20 grand that first year in my own training and development. And then I've invested over 50 grand and it's been three years and I've continued that. I got a coach. I joined a mastermind. I started reading. I started changing so many things.

And that was when the change took, took place. That first year I finished number one in all of Salesforce enterprise and, and sold, you know, more combined than I had in those first four years and like just crushed it. And then it's kind of been since then just to, um, you know, I, I really, really changed the way I sell and, and learned, uh, and I can talk about that. Like that was different, but that was my transition. Well, what was, was there a light bulb? Like, so you had a coach, you had, you know, you started to be a little bit more introspective if you will, and kind of looking at yourself. Was there through that journey, was there a little bit of an aha moment for you of, I mean, I think the, the, the, yes, I, I, this isn't working.

Right. But then was like, when it was there, it clicked. And if there was what happened, it was, um, but I think before the, is it, isn't working? It was, I was sick of myself. I had such a disgusted feeling back to the self-esteem. I felt so bad. And I said, I never want to feel this way again. F this. I am so fed up. It's not like this isn't working. I want to change. It was truly a disgust. And I just remember the moment of missing that plan by a few thousand dollars. And I've worked so hard. And I said, this, this really sucks. I don't care what it takes. I have to change the way I sell. And, and I, until you get to that again, it's like that same, like, you know, needing to succeed. Like if you have a runaway, like hating to fail and truly like hating yourself because you feel like a failure, like that's equally, um, drip, you know, equally a motivator to change.

So I think that was the light bulb is, is something went off inside of me that said, I am done with this and I am going to do whatever it takes. And that was where I, my journey begins. So until you get to that point, it's hard to change because I've been selling so long. So, well, I think that's the challenge too, that I see it just from a coaching standpoint, I know you're kind of, you're getting into training and coaching. Like the thing that I always struggle with as a, as a coach or a trainer, if you will, is, you know, the whole lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Right. Like if somebody doesn't fundament, like, you know, uh, you, you know, let's take the personal side of the house.

Like if you have a friend who's an alcoholic, right? Like no matter what you do to try to help them, if they don't fundamentally want to help themselves, it's a, it's a fool's errand. It's literally not even worth it. I mean, be there for them and, and, you know, bail them out of jail, you know, that type of stuff. But as far as trying to change them, like you can't change somebody who doesn't fundamentally want to be changed. And so that's, that's always been my struggle is because I, when I've trained people, I'm like, I'm kind of like you, I'm fired up. Like this training for me, it, it changed my life. Like when I took it, I was like, Holy shit, this is gold. And so when I started training it, I was like, fucking A, everybody pay attention to what I have to tell you here.

This is so good, you know, but inevitably there's, you know, 10, 60, 30, there's 10% of the people that are all in cause they want it. There's 60% of the people that are kind of in and there's 30% of the people that'll fucking never do anything different. And it's like that, that, that, that part infuriates me, but I've kind of come to, you know, conclusion that I can only help who I can help. Right. So, so you came to that conclusion and then, and what was the, what was the difference? So you went from the high velocity selling, like what was the, fuck, I can't do this anymore. And what, what, what are the changes that you made? So to get into the tactics of it, you know, from a sales, pure sales standpoint, the biggest difference is instead of spending a little bit of time with a lot of people, I spent a lot of time with very few people.

And I found, I focused upfront on finding the right people and I dove deep. So it's Salesforce. We have an engagement called Ignite and Ignite is a team of design thinkers and consultants that really look at where a business is today, where they want to go, and then come up with a point of view on how they can get there, combining people, process, and technology. Where I was focusing before was on the tech. I was trying to sell speeds and feeds and products, and that's how I did it at Rico. So of course, that's what I thought, learn the software, study the software, talk about the software. The software I have news for you does not matter. I don't care what you sell and where you sell. It doesn't matter.

And I work for the best, I think, software companies, CRM company around. It still doesn't matter. What matters is trust. What matters is being a trusted advisor where you are adding value and clients believe you can help them go from point A to point B. And the software is merely a means to get there. It's all about the expertise. It's about the team that's in place. It's about the proof points that you've had. And all of that takes time to develop. If you're just pitching and you don't take the time to truly understand where they are today, where they want to go, why haven't then they been able to get there, right? What is, you know, the actual reasons they want to get there personally and for their company?

What's at stake, right? That is the enterprise sales. It's getting so deep in getting that emotional factor of getting people talking about and getting imagining what a better world could look like. And so my example is with Berkshire Hathaway and, you know, I can't give too many details, but, you know, I worked with a CEO who truly cared and wanted CRM for his agents so that they could do better and perform better. And I, in the simple question I asked, which, which changed my trajectory is why is this so important to you personally? I've never seen a client so passionate about doing right. Like, tell me. And then he started going off about all of the single mothers who had no other option where they could be with their family and raise their kids and still have an income and real estate presented that opportunity for them.

And the real estate industry and all the other brokerages had failed that single mom. They said, get your license, go figure it out. And he said, no, that's not enough. We want to give them tools and training and empower them to be the best. And we want to be the best at helping people succeed. And once I hit that, heard that, that was my story for the rest of the presentation. Yeah, no shit. Holy shit. Yeah. I mean, once you get to that core, like what they're trying, and I say that all the time. I mean, much more micro, you know, I'm like up until recently, I've been a one man show. Right. And, but I, you know, my driving goal, and I blog about it. I write about this is to stay home with my daughter.

Right. Is to find more time. Like, cause I travel too much. She's, you know what I mean? I just want to be there. Right. And, and I tell people this story, like even people who look at little shitty, tiny accounts like I was like two people. Right. I go, look, I look like a pretty bad lead for anybody, but if you understand what I'm trying to do, you will literally get me to spend untold amount of money to achieve that goal. Like I spent, I mean, go, let's go to Salesforce, like the marketing cloud. Uh, and this is probably going to make a lot of people at Salesforce pissed, but, uh, I, I was convinced a couple of years back. So, you know, this space, right? There's the onsite training, which is the highest expensive, but you know, highest value.

Then there's the online portal for corporate and then there's individual, right? So I was convinced that I could create a portal for, for individuals that would pay 50 bucks a month. And I would create this annuity there one year that I would wake up, I'd be making a couple hundred G's or whatever it was. And I'd be able to kind of coast off of that for a while. Um, because I was convinced that, that that was going to get me, excuse me, to my goal of, of spending more time with my daughter, I dropped about $500,000 over the course of two years to, to make that happen. Redid my whole website, landing pages all over the place, redid my online portal, created all this other stuff. So for, for me, a two person show, like if you would come to me with some marketing automation tool and said, yeah, John, we're going to, you know, help you communicate better, you know, here, look at this feature.

And it's, I'd be like, dude, fuck off. But if you're like, Hey John, let's have that conversation about you spending more time with your daughter, all of a sudden budget goes out the window. Right. And I think that that's what you tapped into, but. Exactly. When, when they, when they truly believe like, and it's an emotional, like who's asking about why do you really want to do this? What reps are really asking about what's most important to you and where do you want to go and what's been stopping you? Like, like that simple conversation was nothing I've ever was taught. It was just something that kind of like, when I started caring about my clients, when I truly started trying to serve them and help them is when my results skyrocketed.

Right. Because I wasn't trying to sell. I was trying to serve and sales was the outcome of that. So there's a lot that went into that, but at the highest level, it's really spending a lot of time with fewer people understanding their real true drivers and understanding. And then there's so much under that. It's like mapping out and understanding, you know, how decisions are made, who are the, you know, the champions, the influencers, where are the blind spots and kind of going through. And the, the biggest thing of all is like finding that change agent. If you find somebody who isn't afraid to make a change, isn't afraid to bet their job and their career on this decision. Right. Not the person who's been there 20 years.

It's been like, there's a reason they haven't done it. Right. Cause they're happy with the status quo. So you've got to find that person coming in and saying, you know what, I'm willing to, um, to flip over and, you know, turn things on their head so that we can get where we need to go and isn't afraid to, to make a bet on it. That's, that's when, you know, that's the person to spend a lot of time with. So you don't want to spend a lot of time with the wrong people. That's another key thing is like the right people. How do you, how do you personally identify that before even walking in the door? Right. Cause I got some ideas of how I do that. Cause I agree with you. I think there's two types of people, right?

There's, there's, and I talk about the power line a lot. Like people above the power line, below the power line, but you know, talking about people non like ultimate decision makers, right? Like non-decision makers, there's two types. There's people who are always going to be below the, below that power line. And again, to your point, I've been in the same exact role for 10 years. Right. And probably aren't going to make, and then there's people who are on their way up, who are those change agents. How do you, before you even, uh, like you're going into a huge enterprise account. Actually, I'm going to take a step back for a second. Cause I want to ask like, what is your, like, so Berkshire Hathaway, like, holy fuck.

Like, I mean, like a huge organization, right? How do you even approach an organization? You know, do you, do you just go straight to the CEO and be like, what's up dude? Let's have this conversation. Like what's your approach there? And then, then let's talk about the change agent piece. But like, before you even, like, what do you even do to get into an account like that? Yeah. So, so I just ran actually a session on this cause we're going through our kickoff now and it's, it's really like hit the ground running. And this is the other counterintuitive thing, right? You want to, as a salesman, you want to hit charge, get in your accounts, go through, but where, where sales reps don't spend a lot of time where I certainly didn't for my first few years when I wasn't performing was on that research and prep, you know, whether it's for an appointment or a presentation, like it's, it's really, you can spend a couple of days preparing for a 30 minute meeting in the enterprise space.

And the same way that I prep for a big deal I'm working on actually prep for an account that I'm taking over. So when I want to identify, you know, there's a lot of things we do, but at its core there's research on the company, which is, you know, which is really around looking at the people in the company that matter. So for, for us, it's, it's really eight departments because we're a huge company. We sell into sales, service, marketing, IT. We also sell into operations, finance, HR, and business insights and consumer insights. So there there's within that and LinkedIn obviously is a great tool for this, but it's identifying. And what I found is like half these people, if what I do is I'll map out who's the C level, who's the VP level, and who's like the SVP, like kind of that top tier.

So if you have eight departments and three people, at least in each department, you're talking about 25 people, right? And so out of those 25, there's going to be a couple change agents there. But in order to find them, you're going to have to talk to a lot of people. And there's some things you can do to kind of identify that once you're in front of them. But before you even get there, something I do is I look at what they're saying in the news. So I'll look at their interviews. I'll look at any articles at these people and I'll make comments and they'll talk about initiatives. They'll talk about, you know, key things. Maybe they're attending industry conferences. And so when I reach out to them, typically I'm referencing some of that stuff, probably a lot of what you, you know, taught in your, your prospecting, you know, techniques and really making it personal.

I think, and then, and then mapping what you sell your product or service to what they're trying to do. So you're coming in with a very, very pointed message. That takes a long time to do that research. It takes literally probably a week before I even, even touch account. So that's kind of the first thing is, is what the individual is saying. The other thing is what's the company, what's going on? Are they growing, but their profitability is down. Are they trying to get into new markets? Are they launching new products and services? So like understanding at the company level, understanding the individual. And then the third area is kind of what is our history with them? So are they using Salesforce?

Where are they using Salesforce? Where aren't they using Salesforce? Are they a red account? You know, have they had problems in the past? What's that history? So I will spend literally on a new account I'm taking over right now. I've already done like five prep calls. A lot of reps will do 30 minutes or an hour and they do a transition. Here are the people. No, how are you really going to go deep with each opportunity, with each person, with each goal, with each previous presentation? I mean, we're talking 10, 15 year relationships in some cases. So all that research upfront really does prepare you to go in with a point of view. And, you know, in a lot of cases, when you go to a new account, you want to go with a gift in hand.

You don't want to be the new account rep and they've just seen, you know, the fourth account in four years. You want to go with something that can help them. So maybe it's an issue that wasn't resolved that you come in and you can do some work upfront to resolve it. So you come in and you're adding immediate value. But that's something literally I'm working on right now with a client who had some downtime and, you know, they wanted the credit. So those are, you know, hard to do in companies where there's SLAs and I'm going through some hard work before I even talk to them to get that happen. So that's kind of how I do it. It's like if I can get to an understanding of some key challenges or problems that they're trying to solve and some key things they're talking about when I go in and this could be a new logo or a current customer and I approach it very, very strategically and targeted, which is different than saying I'm the new rep.

I want to set up time to have coffee with you, which is what everyone else does, doesn't work, doesn't add value. So why not add value from the beginning? That's kind of how I look at it going into the year. And then I have a list of, you know, here's, and then the final thing is like a point of view at the highest level. This company's trying to transform in these areas. We can come in and help you with that transformation. We can help you get from point A to B. You have to be really presumptuous and like assume that you're coming in to solve the bigger problems because the bigger the problem you have, the bigger the commission and the more they're going to be willing to pay for it. So you want to make big money, solve big problem versus focus on that tactical.

Oh, they're not using CPQ. Let's go in pitching CPQ. They're not using marketing. Let's go here and do. And that's what I was kind of doing is like all these little tactical versus focusing on the big goal of the company. And then you sell every product there is under the bus. And so that's, that's what I've done with, you know, with the big deals I've worked. And I think there, so, you know, the funny thing is I think some reps inherently understand, like, I guess they, they probably would say they understand it, but they don't. And they, and they try to address it in a very lazy way, at least in my experience. And I did, you know, like early in my career, I've always, I've always been a priority based seller in the sense that I've always fundamentally understood that when your CEO, when Benioff stands up in the beginning of the year and says, these are the things that we got to do this year to be successful and whatever it is, if I can't align my solution to some of the, like one or two of those, like good luck selling anything of significance.

Right. But for a solid 15 some odd years of my career, the way I used to get there was by saying dumb shit, like tell me about your priorities. Right. So, and, and, you know, you take that very generic approach and you get very generic answers if you get answers at all. So what is, what is, what are some of the things that you do to, to, to, to get people? I mean, I, I think the, the, the trust building up front, as far as your research and your understanding of the account before you even walk in that door is huge, but still people, you know, are pretty guarded about what their, what their ultimate priorities are in a lot of ways, especially to a sales rep that they don't really know all that well.

So how do you get people to open up about really what their true priorities are, what their true drivers are? Yeah, it's a, it's a good question. And it's something I think is intimidating for a lot of people to ask, you know, especially the C level, like, you know, what's most important to you? I would say you don't probably do that up front, right? If you try and say, what are your priorities up front? You're like, you said, you're going to get generic answers. I think the, the key is to go into those meetings without an agenda. And I know that sounds crazy, but the agenda is the more agenda driven and we have to do X, Y, and Z, like the more you're going to be focused internally. It truly is a shifting of like detachment of, I have to get this deal or this meeting has to go well, or this is me and you talking, right?

And that's the ability to have executive conversations and truly just listen and then dig deeper as things come up and just be authentic in terms of like full on, this is not a sales guy. I think there's a wall that goes up when you come across as a sales guy. And it's really hard to teach that because you want to go in and do your pitch and do your, I found the more slides I'm doing, the more long and like the less it's effective. So a lot of times I'll have like all that prep done and I'll say like, Hey, there's so much I want to talk to you about. And, you know, I, I really am excited before I even get in, like I've seen a lot of this, like talk to me about, you know, what, what you view is, is most important in terms of getting your relationship from Salesforce and what, you know, what you've seen, you know, um, maybe work in the past, not working in the past and just like, get to know them and just listen.

Like it's going to be versus coming and trying to sell a product and come like, you can't do that. You can't, you, you want to get people to open up. You have to be approachable. You have to have that. I, it's that energy of like kind of, um, being down to earth and also being on their level. That's, that's something that is so hard to teach John, but like knowing you belong in the same room, just knowing that and believing it. Now I feel like I belong because I've been in the same room so many times and it's like knowing your own value and knowing you belong there is, is, is so fundamental to actually having a conversation. So like, I'll just give you an example because I think stories are definitely the most effective way.

Um, I was with the co-founder last week of a massive company and they got back. Um, they got bought out by Blackstone. They're a company called Task Us. And this guy, Jasper Weir run, he, he was Ernst & Young's entrepreneur of the year. Right. And he do, I mean, this guy's probably in his, um, low to mid thirties, youngest one, one there, this company has 18,000 employees now and he co-founded the company. Right. And, and I, I basically reached out to him. I went, sponsored one of their events, saw him there, you know, we were having a drink and I was just chatting and I'm like, I love what you're doing. I tell me like how, like, you know, for, for, for them, their value proposition is employee experience.

They believe happy employees will, will serve happy customers. And I said, dude, this is why I work at Salesforce. We have the same exact values. Tell me how you keep someone happy when they're in a call center all day or what, and I really was, yeah, strive to be interesting before you're strive to be interested in not interesting that that's kind of the, the, like genuinely be interested. And then you'll, you'll be amazed at how people open up and, and, and yeah. Have you always had that? Have you always had that genuine curiosity? No, I just wanted to sell stuff. I wanted to go in and genuinely wanted to sell my shit so I can make a lot of money. And that's what's the difference is I genuinely now want to help a business.

And, and like, until that shift occurs and truly being a partner, you're going to come with an agenda, you're going to come in and they're going to sniff that a mile away. So I think, so getting back to the point with this CEO, I was talking to him and then I reached out and I'm like, look, I love what you're doing. Let me help you get into Salesforce. And I actually helped him set a meeting with our VP of sourcing. And then I reached out and said, Hey, I got you this meeting. I have a big favor to ask you. I'm trying to pitch the solution. I'd love to get your thoughts on what's important from an employee engagement. I think we can help you elevate it even further and add your value proposition.

Let's grab lunch. He came in and we just shot the shit, you know? And he, at the end of the day, these executives are just like you and me. And until you get like comfortable being in the same room, you're not going to be able to get that card down. You're not going to be able to get them to open up because you're going to sound like a salesperson. And I don't know. I don't care because I have no agenda. I just want to help you. Let's talk. And they're going to be like, holy shit, who is this guy? You're the first salesperson that I ever met. That's not trying to come in here and like sound as it looks like a sales. Look at the way I'm dressed right now. This is how I dress for clients. I'm not, I'm just me.

I'm just comfortable in my skin. And that is amazing in terms of letting people's guard down and just opening up because they see you as a friend and like someone who's adding value. It's insane. And I can't explain it except having done it, like the less I try and pitch and the more I try and just learn and help and listen, the more people open up. Totally. I, you know, I think there was a, there was an aha moment for me when I was a lot younger about the, cause I felt the same way. I'm like, I mean, I was a VP of sales at like 23 years old, which is a joke, but, but you know, as far as like baller executives, I was like, who the fuck am I to have this conversation with this like multimillion dollar CEO, blah, blah, blah.

But then I started paying attention to some of my friends, right. And some of my friends, parents who I would go over their house and you know, that would always be like, you know, Greg's dad in the corner or whatever it was. But then when I started paying attention to what these people did, I'm like, holy shit, some of these people are CEOs, some of my friends, dads and moms are CEOs and high level executives in these organizations. And then as I got older and older, I started going out drinking and being introduced to friends of friends who were executives and that type of stuff. And seeing like executives of multimillion dollar companies get shithouse hammered drunk on a Friday night at, you know what I mean?

And I'd be like, wait a minute, I'm worried about talking to you. Like hold still, like we all put our pants on the same way and I got something to add just like you do. So, so, all right, you know, let's have this conversation. And I think you got to build that confidence. Um, but you said, you said something about experience, right? So you'd like to, and product knowledge earlier. Um, do you believe as a, as an enterprise sales rep, um, that you have to be the product expert in order to bring that value? Hell no. Thank you. You need to know who to bring in and you need to know how to quarterback the team. That's the skill, right? You've got to know if you've got it. So Salesforce bought Tableau, we bought MuleSoft, we bought ExactTarget.

Like we've done, gosh, maybe 20 acquisitions since I've been here. Yeah, I know. It's probably more like, how am I supposed to learn? I can't even keep up with the names of what we're buying, but I do know how to ask about problems and say, wow, this sounds like it's an analytics problem. This sounds like it's a Heroka problem. This sounds like it's a, so that's the key is you need to be able to talk business and not product. And that's the number one skill that I want to teach because I feel like there's no sales training out there in the enterprise space. That's really, you know, how to have business conversations, how to tell stories, how to relate to people, how to build. And it's such a, such a need where, where, um, people are so, and I'm guilty as charged, right?

I was just so focused on every little product and I'm spending, what does that do? It doesn't do anything. The value is really just understanding how to identify a need and then map your product and service and then bring in the right people, right? And let them do their thing and then empower them. Let them go. Don't try and control it. Let them do their jobs. Like I have 15 people that support me of the cross, the different products, either engineers or product specialists. I'm not selling MuleSoft, right? MuleSoft is a multimillion dollar product. I'm not selling Tableau. I'm bringing them in and I'm coming as a team and I'm making sure I'm holding them accountable and working together as, as being that kind of quarterback for the client.

So they don't see 20 people like Oracle does where they're all operating separately. We operate as one unified and that's what makes Salesforce so unique is the way we kind of have a customer centric approach. And, you know, we're all kind of operating in the same level of solving these problems and whether it's a Tableau or an Einstein or a wave or whatever our latest thing is, it doesn't matter. Let the engineers figure out the product mix and what to propose. That's not my job. Just make sure I get the right people looking at it versus, you know, it's all about selling as a team really in the enterprise. You have to sell as a team to be successful. How do you, how do you balance, um, and, and maintain consistency in an enterprise sale?

So for instance, say you did a little bit of legwork, right? You did your homework. Uh, you get, you get that opportunity to sit in front of that executive, whichever it might be a C level, it might be an SVP. You have a good conversation. Uh, you, you connect with them, right? Uh, you understand that there's a bigger picture goal and then they say, okay, now go talk to all those other people to get to gather insights and information, right? Blah, blah, blah. And then once that happens, what I find my experience and I've never done multi multi-million dollar deals. So, so bear with me here. But my experience is that once like usually the, the, the, the, the top has a very clear vision of what they need to get accomplished and all that other stuff.

Right. But then as it trickles down to the ground floor, it gets diluted, diluted, diluted, diluted, and it becomes a lot more personal at those levels because now people are basically like, Hey, what's in it for me? So how do you, they're protecting their babies too. They're trying to replace a hundred percent. So how do you keep alignment? I guess, if you will, as you go through this journey of a one to two to three year sales cycle in some cases with 15, 20, 30, 40 people, even when, cause I, I see it where like, that's why I think challenger customer, right? Challenger sale was good, but then challenger customer came out and, and that was actually a better book than challenger sale because it talked about, even if somebody wants to buy your shit, the internal politics and all the layers involved, it's like, it's, they just throw up their hand.

It's like, it's just not even worth me doing this. So, so how do you maintain that, that control of such a complex sale with so many moving parts and alignment with the executive side? Yeah, it's a great question. And in some cases you can't, right? In some cases there are things outside your control. There might be a board member that has something or, you know, in my case, um, literally, you know, Bill Gates was, was on the board of one of my large deals. Yeah. You're probably going to lose that one. Well, we're still fighting it out. Nice. I mean, there are those cases and now they had to go look at Microsoft and bring them in and just threw a wrench in something we thought was done. So I would say, um, you know, there are some times literally where a company can get bought out or there's just some things that happen that, that, that are out of your control.

So kind of knowing what you can control and knowing what you can't is really important. But the key is, you know, when you get to that executive, um, and you map out kind of, here's what needs to happen. You have to control the process, right? You have to define, Hey, our process is X. We need to look at your current systems. We need to understand, you know, um, your, your contracts and where you're at. We need to understand your KPIs, your, your, we're going to put together a business case and we need your finance involved so we can, um, map the value. Cause it's hard for you to sell this without a business case. Um, and then like, you know, just asking them like how, how are decisions really made?

Have you done this before and got something approved, right? Who else runs the company? Literally when I was this co-founder, he listed three people. He said the CFO, the CCO and the COO run the company. All three of those people need to get their, their eyes on this thing, or it's not going to, you know, that was huge. Cause I hadn't talked to the COO before. So there's a blind spot there. So meanwhile, you have this one CIO or VP of apps that wants to get things done, but he's not in control of really how, how buying is made. So I think, I think identifying upfront, like how do decisions really get made at your organization and the who else, who else, who else that keep asking who else? It's never just them, right?

It's like, who else? Like, you know, and, and then kind of doing that sniff test where you can pay, have you done something like that before I've got to prove, tell me how that went down, what had to happen. Right. So really kind of gauging that upfront. And then you go into your diligence, you do your discovery, go back in a month or two and you do the readout to the executive again. So it's all about setting up that next. So we're going to need three, four weeks, whatever it is, maybe longer. If you're doing like an ignite, which I did, you know, it could be three to six months in the case of Berkshire, we flew to every office and interviewed real estate agents and took all that and came back and, you know, showed a huge vision.

The more information you gather, the more you're actually going to get to the truth, right? Cause the executives often don't even see it. So you've got to do the lower levels, even down to the user in some cases, and then come back up and here's what we heard. Here's the challenges. Here is the biggest opportunities. And then really show a plan of here's how we're going to get there. And that involves bringing a partner to implement that involves trading and rollout strategy that involves making sure that you migrate, you know, whatever they're doing today involves change management. So like really spending time on showing them you've done this before and here's how to do it. Here's some other customers who've done this successfully, right?

All of that needs to be in that readout. So it's not just, here's what you heard by our product. It's like, here's the plan and tell me how and what you need to do from there and kind of bring it back on them. The business case, how important is that? Okay. Does this have to go to a board? When, who else do we need to talk to? Can you, and usually they're going to, at that point, they'll see it, right? So before you get to that big readout, you usually want to have your executive sponsor. That's the change agent we found. And we want to do a dry run. We want to do a full, get, show them what you're thinking, get their feedback, refine it. And then it goes to the broader executive team. It's like, you're not selling to one person you're selling.

So when you go back, you say, who are those other people? Right. And they say, my CEO, CEO, CFO, can you set up a 30 minute call? We can walk through. We'll distill this down to a few slides, executive ready, get their opinion, get their feedback, get their concerns. And then they're part of the process. Right. And then you weed it out. So if you're finding out after you've already pitched and you're single threaded, right, you're in trouble. So it's key to learn upfront and then try and like get to the big thing about that ignite that I did with Berkshire Hathaway is part of the night was interviewing the C-suite. So before we ever like went down to do our discovery at the lower levels, we were literally having a CEO conversation, CFO.

And I remember thinking like, oh my God, this is crazy. I've never like reached out to these people yet because there was a sponsor of this program that the executive sponsor wrote all the other executives and say, hey, here's what we're doing. Here's what is going to be required of you kind of setting that expectation. And there were these executive interviews that were done. And this innovation executive group in Salesforce, the Ignite team was literally setting those appointments. I wasn't even setting it. So it was truly a consulting engagement because no one's going to say no if they're spending a fortune for a PWC consulting or Deloitte or one of those. So they're all going to be involved.

They all want their voice heard. It was the same thing. So they all literally got on the phone, including the CEO, the company, the CFO, the CIO. In these interviews, I was just flying the wall. The first one, I was like asking questions and the guy's like in and give me feedback. I was like, do not do that. That defeats you. You were so salesy, like, you know, because I was still coming off the way I used to sell. And I just listened. It was all the questions they were asking and the type of engagement. That's kind of how I learned to speak that language because it wasn't about sales force. It wasn't about product. It was about their business, about their goals, their vision, what wasn't working, what they're not happy to, what they're looking for, you know, and just stuff that wasn't related to, to technology specific versus like, what are you using today?

What's not working? How much are you paying? Like all that. Again, it's the different kind of selling, but that's what most people do. So the, the shortest, I mean, I answered your question in a long way, but I think the key is to set the expectation of what the process is. Make sure the readout is back to the executive sponsors you first get that same readout to the broader team of all the decision makers. Right. And then the objections will come out and you're dealing with the right person. Cause when you're with power, like that's when things happen. You can spend so much time at that lower level negotiating, doing, and they end up at the end of the day, they can't say yes. So why are you spending that?

You still have to get them comfortable and get the information because they have it. But the end of the day, like the decision makers are the ones you need to be presenting to. And I think a lot of people just make the mistake of presenting their proposals to non-decision makers and expect it to go. And that's why it hits the black hole. And then all of a sudden people are silent. So you can avoid that. You identify who and pitch back to them in the right group. You had mentioned something earlier that you have a team right at Salesforce that you leveraged and, and you mentioned something that, that, uh, I think I'm seeing a bigger trend in, especially at enterprise sales is the whole design thinking idea, which, and you just outlined that in, in a, you know, in your approach in the sense that you learn, right.

You learn about their situation, you learn about their challenges, and then you present something with a point of view that will help them get somewhere that, you know, where they want to go, but they might not see how to do that. Right. So have you learned, um, you have a design thinking team that does that. So how much, how much have you really been like diving into design thinking and taking that approach to selling as opposed to the feature function approach? Not, not too much on a personal level. Cause again, I mean, it's all about knowing who to bring in. Right. So if the company is truly looking for a vision, if they're looking to identify where they want to go and they're at the point where, you know, they, they truly are trying to transform, but they don't know how to get there, or they want an outside opinion on what it's going to take, then you go in and lead with the design thinking.

Cause the first step in design thinking is, is building out what's called a V2 mom. And you've probably heard that term because we use it in our goal setting every year, but it stands for vision, values, metrics, obstacles, and methods. Right. So vision is where do you want to go? Right. Values is who are you as an organization? Um, met metrics is like, how do you like measure success? Obstacles is what's stopping you. And then methods is like the how of what you're going to do to, to get there. Right. And so, um, or actually methods comes first, then obstacles, then metrics is like, how do you measure it? It's the last step. Um, and for companies that are listening and want to go through that process, we have a great, if you go to trailhead and your trailhead V2 mom, you can go through the process yourself, but that's what the first step of the design thinking engagement is like aligning on their vision.

It's amazing. Like what happens because a lot of times these people have never been in the same room together, or it's been years, or it's just at a conference, getting them all together, you will hear everyone's different priority. And just that simple act of being a fly on the wall and going through this and listening. It's amazing how you can have every different point of view versus one point of view, which may not, you know, candidly be important to some other executives. So I think for me, it's, it's understanding, are they truly at a place where they, um, know where they want to go and have clear plan on it and they're kind of on their way, or is it kind of more nebulous and they're trying to get there and they're not sure how, and they're not sure how that's when design thinking is, is a, is the right approach.

I do always lead with it. I always try to say, let's set a V2 mom. This is a way we can really make sure we're helping you and making sure we're, we're all marching to the same, you know, tune and the same beat. And, and, and I would say it's hard to get a client that is, cause it's gotta be the top executive that sponsors something like that. Um, and people are busy. So it usually has to come at a unique turning point in their business. And it has to be the right company that can invest the time and you know, the right, the right sponsor. But, um, that that's almost like our biggest deals that we've closed AT&T, direct TV, um, you know, um, Comcast, the big global organization city, you know, a lot of those companies are doing, um, ignites first before we ever talk product with them, because that's not what the value they see in Salesforce.

They want to say, how can we elevate and solve this problem? We're not sure how to get there. So I think knowing how to do it is a good skill, but that's not, I don't need to know how to do it because I have a team. So there's really no point, but I, knowing when to identify it is really where I, where I spend the time is like asking questions to see if, is it truly a good opportunity for a night? Yeah. And I think that, I mean, just to wrap things up, I think that's ultimately what I, what I take away is, is that the enterprise, like real enterprise, they're not looking for a product. They're, they're genuinely looking for a partnership, right? They're genuinely looking for a, a, a provider that can help come in and work with them to achieve that ultimate goal of whatever it is.

And that's why selling features functions at the, up at that level could give a shit because now you're basically a commodity. And guess what? Somebody else is going to have a better widget than you coming next door. So I'm not going to invest any time. I might invest in you, but it'll be like a year or whatever. And then I'm going to look at something else. But if you're looking for that big five year relationship, you gotta give a shit, man. You gotta give a shit. Yeah. Yeah. You're demoting yourself the minute you start talking. It's like, and I've seen it. I've literally seen people tune out when I take it to that level. It's like, oh, that's this immediate, that's this person. That's because they don't get involved.

They get involved in the business. Where's the business going? So I think, I think that's, yeah, good point. Love it, man. All right. And the final, any, any final things, uh, to, to share with the audience here before we, before we wrap this up? I think, um, again, if, if, if this is appealing, if you like it, I'm putting out videos on LinkedIn. I'm starting this, uh, this journey myself, um, you know, in, in terms of trying to teach this because I'm teaching it at Salesforce. I taught it at the SKL. I'm doing the one I was trying to get you on, John. I'm running that right. So how to create stories. I like so much just from years I'm putting out there to, to genuinely help people. But if you like the content, I would say, um, go to ianconiac.com and, um, um, you could see the website when I'm, when I'm up to, as well as just LinkedIn, I'm putting out a weekly training video every week and appearing on podcasts and stuff.

So I'm super excited to kind of be an evangelist for this way of selling. Cause I think it's what the market needs candidly. And I think it's a lot more fun than doing it, the grind it out and, you know, get the same results kind of way. So I appreciate what you've done in the book that you, it's very aligned with my mission. Like I want to be in sales when I grow up, I bought that. And I just really, you know, respect that view of sales. Cause I think it's the greatest profession in the world. Literally create the life of your dreams. If you do it right, but you got to do it right and have the right reasons. So yeah, man, you know, I'm going to be here for the long haul. So I look forward to seeing, seeing more people out there and continuing, you know, to evangelize this, this path.

I love it, brother. So just in case everybody didn't get that. And for those of you listening to the podcast, it's E-N-I-A-N-K-O-N-I-A-K. And that's the website, iancognac.com? Yeah, just iancognac.com and my LinkedIn profile is Ian Cognac. So that's kind of where I am and putting out there. Awesome. Awesome. Well, definitely, uh, pay attention for those of you listening, pay attention. Uh, you know, Ian's, uh, uh, the passion behind it. I love it too. Right. And, and getting the word out there to, to do sales. Right. Cause I think we need more voices out there to talk about how to, that, that sales isn't that dirty word that everybody, you know, thinks of. And, and if you do it right, it's a genuine partnership.

It's a genuine relationship. It's a genuine give a shit factor that makes a real difference. Right. So awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you coming on. Um, and everybody, as I always say, uh, even if you're having a shitty day, go make somebody smile. Cause if you make somebody smile, that means you had a good day. So thanks, Ian, for coming on board here, man, and good luck moving forward. I'm looking forward to seeing, uh, seeing this journey and consuming some of that content moving forward for everything you're doing. We'll talk soon. Yep. Go out there and make it happen and make it a great day.