185: Lindsey Boggs On Mental Health Skills For Sales Leadership

What's poppin' y'all, it's your man James Say What Sales Buckley, and we are back with another episode of Make It Happen Mondays with your host, well, me this time around. How about that? Big shout out to our partners, Sales Loft, Gong, Proposify, Vidyard, and Rise. In this episode, we are speaking with Lindsay Boggs of Citrix. She has a huge focus on the mental health of her team and takes a ton of action to ensure that they are at their best. We're going to dive into what her one-on-ones look like, some tools that she uses to keep her people effective, a healthy mentality, and some personal experiences that have impacted her professional growth as well, along with much, much more. Did you know that you can become a reseller of JBSales Training On Demand?

That's right, we're looking for consultants, individual contributors, sales organizations, and affiliate marketers that want to resell licenses of JBSales On Demand to their clients, website visitors, and social networks. Does this sound like you? Well, head over to jbsales.partnerstack.com today to learn about how you can get started. Let's get into what's happening in Lindsay's world. Talk to you soon. What's poppin', everybody? It's your man, James Say What's Sales Buckley, and we are here with another episode of Make It Happen Mondays. But this time, I'm in the hot seat with my very good friend. I am so lucky to have her here with me. Lindsay Boggs of Citrix is here to talk about mental health skills and sales leadership.

What's up, Lindsay? How are you? I'm doing great. I am fantastic. Thanks so much for coming out on the show. We have known each other for quite some time now, and watching you lead your team is inspiring because you have a way of really nurturing not just their results, but the way they get to those results. So I'm real excited to dive into the mental health space and what it is to be in sales leadership and be kind of underneath somebody that has such a strong focus on mental health and sales leadership like yourself. So let's get into it. Can you tell me about some of the things that you feel like make you a strong leader in the mental health space specifically? Absolutely. So thank you for doing this topic, by the way.

I think it's really important and really happy to be here to talk about it. I think some of the skills to have for being an exceptional leader in the mental health space with your team is really treating them as a person and not a number. And I know that we all say that we do that, but oftentimes somebody will feel like a number on a team and they just have a quota that they're supposed to hit and they don't feel like the leader truly cares about how they are doing. And I really feel like this last year, the transformation that I went through in implementing certain platforms to my one-on-ones and my staff meetings really helped me succeed. And I feel like this past year, I went from a manager to a leader.

And I really think that that was the big transformation that I had this past year. In tandem with that, I would say one of the things I learned in the mental health space is asking how somebody is doing twice. So ask them the first time how they're doing. They're going to probably say, fine, how are you? Or good, how are you? But if you ask them the second time, they're likely to tell you more on what's really going on and how they are really doing in its core. Yeah, that's something that we talk about when we get with our Uncrushed team is we start talking about asking how you are twice. And I didn't think that that was going to make the difference that it has made. But when we talk to people about mental health, I feel like we bypass it the first time.

It's like a subconscious response that we've been giving for years because how are you is kind of been a greeting for a very long time. Hey, how are you? And we bypass that with, I'm fine. Thanks. How are you? And we don't give it really a moment like, how am I, right? Like, you know what? There's a lot going on in our lives. And at the same time, there's work and results and pressure. But this other stuff that's happening on the other side of the fence really impacts the results that we see over here. There's a lot of talk about distraction and how easy it is for us to lose sight of what we should be focused on. You've got a note here that you sent me about micro on your team. Can you tell me what that means to you?

Yeah. I made sure during the pandemic, there were two ways to go about the pandemic. And I believe that some leaders took the micromanaging way. I chose the opposite. I chose the, my team. They're all adults. They are all quite capable of doing their role. And I just want to lead by example. And I believe in the beginning of the pandemic, and I'm sure a lot of people on this can relate to it. We were overworking because there was nothing else to do. Everything was closed. And when you're at home, I often feel like when your computer's there, it's up and you can just get to work and you can keep working. And before you know it, it could be 530 and you haven't taken a break. And so I believe leading by example, scheduling breaks, teaching your team how to take breaks, but not going micro on them really helped them succeed and flourish because I wasn't checking in every five minutes to making sure that they were working.

I wasn't checking in even every hour to make sure that they were working. I trusted that they were working and that really went a long way. Yeah. There's an element of trust that I think has to be there in sales leadership, especially today with everybody working remote. And there's not a lot of like accountability that's standing over their shoulder. But, you know, to be frank with you, I never responded positively to that anyway. And I always responded more to people that gave me the space to learn what I needed to learn and accomplish what I needed to accomplish and really focus on the goal. Time management becomes a skill that I think that we overlook constantly in our space, the space of sales.

And I think the reason why we overlook it is because there's so much happening on a day to day. We're pulled in so many different directions and we're told early on in our role or our job, even in our career when we first start, the goal is sales. This is the goal. Here's the number that you need to hit. So maybe for three, four months, you know, Q1, Q2, maybe you're super hyper focused on that goal, which is fantastic. But then all these other things start coming your way. Hey, can you manage this spreadsheet? Can you do this quick data project for me? Can I hand you this writing assignment? Would you like to write this article? I really think you should do more videos. And salespeople get pulled in all those different directions.

And at the same time, there's a calendar breakdown, right? Because that calendar doesn't represent all those other projects. So I want to talk about time management and how important that is for mental health when you're the leader and you're trying to teach your team or at least encourage your team to be better at managing their day to day routines. Absolutely. And when my team gets to work, they have a, they have sales loft where it's got, hey, you've got 600 overdue tasks. Surprise, you know, or that's so overwhelming in like 8am, right? Yeah. I mean, what a way to start your day. You get to work 600 overdue tasks. That's fun. So I, I would, I would say what I did, the shift that I made around April was here's a calendar on Excel that I have color coded for you.

It is an idea. It is not verbatim what you need to do, but I would like encourage you to create a calendar for yourself that makes sense for you and color coding helps. So green is the important stuff. Red is the not so important stuff, but making sure that they're prospecting into Greenfield at least an hour a day, making sure that they are doing their no shows at least once a day and their calendar is their own, but setting up an example of what a calendar could look like has really helped them focus and doing power hours where they turn off all of their notifications on their computer, because that can get overwhelming. You know, people slacking you, people teamsing you, people sending LinkedIn messages, people sending emails.

And so being structured with your day, but not so microstructured that they can't even take a break to breathe. Yeah. I think that's what's something. So for me personally, I try to block off all my calendar time so that it's allocated and then I can move things accordingly if I need to. But a lot of times the transparency around my time management helps my communication with leadership regardless, like across the board. When I get handed something, and I tell people this all the time, you know, there's nothing wrong with you saying to that leader, that manager, hey, you know, I haven't hit my quota yet. I can get this to you, but it's going to be on this day, probably at this time. I need to keep my eyes focused on the goal, which is my quota.

That's what you pay me for. You're allowed to say those types of things. If I'm the manager and that's something that's said to me, my go-to response is, that's a great point. I'll find someone else to do this project for me. Thanks for letting me know. Do you need help? Can I help you on the quota side? Like, that's definitely the focus for you. And that's a great point. I think if I'm the manager, and I think a lot of managers out there will agree, if a rep said that to me, I would actually probably apologize to them for not respecting the fact that they have this goal to hit, and I've put this thing in front of them that's going to take them away from that focus. What do you think about that reply from a rep?

I love that. If I heard that from someone on my team, I would be all over that, and I would respect them even more than I do now. Yeah, I feel like we're so afraid to say no that we can't do something because we're focused elsewhere, because we feel like there's this negative connotation to saying no to your boss, if you will. And I'm holding up, for those of you listening to the podcast now watching it, I'm holding up those air quotes, right? Because, oh my gosh, I can't say no, that's my boss. Trust me when I say your boss cares more about you hitting your quota than they do that article or that video or that data project. There are other people that are not quota-carrying people that will help them with that, and you need to go hit that quota.

That is the number one focus for you as a sales professional. Before we move on, how do you manage your time as a manager? The stress of being a manager, like there's one thing to have the stress of being a rep, but it's a totally different thing to be the stress and the anxiety of being a manager. So what does that time management look like for you? Great question. My theme for 2021 has been time management and delegation, and that's something that I work towards every single week. And some weeks, I'll be frank, I do better than others. Last week was not a good example of my good time management. It was a lousy example. And it comes and goes, and it ebbs and flows. And so for time management, for me, I have to add in two kids that we homeschool because schools are closed.

So not only every other day do I have my son, who is from 9.15 to 2.15 every day, actually 2.45, I have to plug in with my team as well and myself to get my deliverables met as well. So structuring my day is really around my blocks for my kids to make sure that they're logged into their Google Meets, they're logged in and they're ready to go. They have their assignments ready to go. But then also blocking off my calendar to get my deliverables that I owe to my leadership as well. So it's a lot of blocking off time, color coding. It's making sure my team comes first as far as work is concerned. And then also tying in administrative tasks that I might need to do, making sure I'm getting call coaching done every week, certain things that have to get done every week, preparing for my staff, meaning preparing for my one-on-ones.

And so it's really about color coding and getting my calendar ready before the week even starts. I can appreciate the proactive approach there. I do a lot of the same, but I think for me, it's like on a Friday, I look to next week. I try not to focus on too far ahead because then I get the anxiety about managing too far ahead and there's other things that I know are going to get thrown to me before I can start planning in that time. So my go-to, and you can tell me if this was a thing for you, I look on Friday into next week and I see what's scheduled. And then I look at my tasks. We use a product called Asana. Great product. We changed our lives in 2020 as far as like project and task management, Asana has been a godsend.

So I look in Asana and I see all my tasks and what I do is I go around my calls and I place those one hour or hour and a half or two hour blocks around my calls and that time is allocated for that project. That has been life-changing for me with regard to where I spend my time and why. You read a book recently and I know you and I have had a couple conversations around books that have helped with mental health and sales management and leadership, but you read Trillion Dollar Coach and I'd like to hear about how that's impacted you. Yes, I read a book called Trillion Dollar Coach and it fundamentally changed my life. So much of it was about how your one-on-ones and your staff meetings make or break your team.

And so I really, really took the time to dissect my one-on-ones and figure out, are they really good or are they mediocre or are they, are they like, let me evaluate myself and see if my one-on-ones are any good. After reading that book, I completely made over my one-on-ones. I was like, okay, listen, we're going to have an agenda now. I Googled fast and furiously, you know, best one-on-one software. And I kept coming back to this company called Work Patterns. I did a trial with them, implemented it, and it literally, that is one of the reasons why I believe I went from a manager last year to a leader by using that platform. So not only did I do that with my one-on-ones, but I changed my staff meetings.

So now there's an agenda before the staff meeting. There is buy-in from the team on the agenda. I feature a team member every week in the staff meeting. And it has just been such a positive experience for the team to collaborate with their one-on-ones and to collaborate with the staff meetings. And it totally changed my leadership. Yeah, I'm curious, you know, changing your leadership style can be kind of daunting. And I think there's some fear around, you know, what if I make this change and it doesn't go well? What was it that gave you the confidence to implement these changes and not stress over, you know, rubbing somebody the wrong way, putting somebody on the spot? I mean, let's be honest.

There's personality types and sales all over the place. And some of them are not overly comfortable being the focus of the room, the center point of the room. So, you know, highlighting, a great example is highlighting one of your reps every day, every week, right? That can be a little bit overwhelming for that silent sort of introverted person. Did you have an experience like that? I did have an experience like that where somebody was more on the introverted side that hadn't done a lot of public speaking before, but they took it as a challenge and they took it as an opportunity to get their name out there more and an opportunity to learn to present, put together a deck and share best practices on what they were an expert on.

And so it went, it went over really well, but yeah, there, there is going to be that resistance. And for me at the time, when I implemented work patterns, I was inheriting a brand new team from, they had never worked with me before. So it was the perfect time to adopt a new software because they didn't know any difference. Ah, great idea, right? New cohort, new, trying out a new model like that. That makes a lot of sense. Timing is everything when it comes to implementing change, right? Yep. So I want to, I want to kind of pivot because we have a traditional path that we see all the time in sales and that is SDRs becoming account executives. Now we do say that that's not necessarily always a path that you have to take, but you happen to have a gift for helping with that transition.

So I'd love to talk about what it's like in your end to have a team that you know is headed towards not being part of your team. What's that like from like a, I want to say it's like a loss perspective. There's like, you invest so much in somebody and you watch them grow and you see all this incredible success and they're really happy working underneath you because they're seeing more success now than they ever have. And then one day, just like that, they're on someone else's team. Dude, that's like, that's like losing somebody in your life. Like, tell me about that, please. Yeah. I mean, it is, you're so right. You are so right. It is the best feeling. I will tell people I was, I was doing another presentation a couple of weeks ago and they talked about, you know, what's your favorite day in the year for being in sales.

And yeah, I have my, my fun events from 2015, 2016, 2018 and what have you. But honestly, my favorite days of the year are when my people get promoted because I feel like I've done a good job and I can even get emotional talking about some of the ones that have moved on because some of them were with me for a longer time than others and they are doing such great things now at Citrix. And so it's emotional and the fact that, yeah, I'm not going to work with them every day, but I remind them I'm just a text away. I'm just a phone call away. I'm not going anywhere. So, and some of them have turned into mentor mentee relationships where they want to bring me on their journey and have me coach them through their, through their new journey.

And so it's been a beautiful thing. Yeah, that that's crazy that people don't acknowledge the loss factor there. They talk about the win factor, which is great, but there's a negative side too. I mean, this is like watching one of your kids go to college almost, right? Like you're dropping them off in a whole new setting and a whole new environment. It's like sink or swim, man. Like there's no, I'm not even your leader anymore. I can't like, I'm here to help you. Like you can text me, you can call me, but in the end you report to someone else. Now that's like, you know, uh, when you're, when your son or your daughter gets married and they're like no longer part of your family directly anymore.

They move out of the house. It's like, that's how that's, I equate that to the same feeling. And I think that that is a very, um, convoluted and very difficult time for managers that people don't acknowledge very often. So I'm glad that that's your favorite part of the journey for your reps. Uh, but on you, it's gotta be emotional to no end because there's a good and a bad to that. Seeing them win and knowing that you had a hand in that is fantastic, but watching them leave you and walk away to another team has to be gut wrenching. Sometimes it was, it is. And I was on clubhouse the other night talking about gratitude on Friday and one of my reps, uh, graduated my program and went on to become a territory manager.

And they sent me the most heartfelt slack I've ever seen where I got teary eyed. I can't even read it because it's like too emotional, but they just thanked me for all the work that I did with them. And it was just, that's what, that's what makes me a leader. That's what makes me get up every day and get to work every day. Yeah. Um, tell me how the importance of these one-on-ones that you've been doing has impacted the team overall. It's impacted the team in a positive way. And here's why, what I've noticed is with work patterns and how they answer questions that I put to prompt them for our one-on-one. They tell you more on text on the website than they do face-to-face on a zoom. So just asking the question on work patterns, how are you doing?

Sometimes I get theses on how they're doing, like how they're really doing. I'll get a thesis about, well, I'm really struggling here and I feel like this and I feel like that. And this happened at home and my mom is X, Y, Z, you know, suffering, whatever. I get way more from that than I do on a zoom saying, how are you twice? I get more written because I think people, some people just feel more comfortable writing than they do talking. That's why some people are better at emails than they are on the phone. So those email folks, those people that are really good at writing, they will tell me more in work patterns. If I ask them the question, what are you grateful for? They will give me so much information on what they're grateful for versus if I did it in person.

So I'm getting more out of them. They feel more comfortable. The other thing that it prompts you to do in work patterns is it prompts you to give your manager feedback. And I believe feedback is a gift. And I want to know if they think something sucks that I'm doing. I want to know about it. So I give them feedback and I give them kudos and work patterns. And then in return, they give me feedback as well. Hey, I think you should try it this way. Or, hey, I think in your staff meeting, we should try this. And I really value that feedback because that's going to make me a better leader too. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that our growth as sales leaders or managers or even the director level, it's interesting that our growth is contingent on the success of our team, right?

So there's like a, I can't win if you don't win mentality there. But that pressure can be really daunting sometimes because, you know, they say shit rolls downhill, right? We all report to somebody else. The managers and the directors are reporting to the VPs. The VPs are reporting to the P's, the presidents, right? The presidents are reporting to the board and so on and so forth. And then the board reports to the investors. There's like this whole cycle of reporting up that happens. And then the, the, the delegation down is, is what we typically get. Have you had a rep? And this is, this is just because I know that you've had a lot of reps come to you cold and inexperienced and grow quite a bit.

Have you had a rep start with you as a rep that would later become a manager or director like you? Yes, I have. Can you tell me that story? I would love to hear that story. This is always an amazing, like, how did this happen? And what is that person like? Like what? I got to hear it. It's not from a person from Citrix, but it's from somebody I led years ago. Is that, does that count? Okay. Absolutely. It counts. Okay. Okay. Cause it's not, it's not like a recent thing. Them moving into leadership is a recent thing, but yeah, I, and I, oh my gosh, this is like opening up a can of worms just so we're clear. But when I was a, when my first leadership role, I was, I had no training. I went from an SDR lead to a director of inside sales and operations at a startup company overnight.

All right. No leadership skills, no training, just put me in the role and started leading a team and they were all remote. And this was back in 2015, 13, 13, 14, 15. And so I had a team, they were in Austin, Texas and Indianapolis and I was in Raleigh. And so they were all remote and I didn't do a good job at this. I just didn't looking back. I can reflect and I feel, I feel that, um, there were a lot of things that could have done differently. Okay. Um, I was more micro then because I was brand new at leadership, definitely a manager, not a leader in this role, but there was one person that, um, I saw a lot of great qualities in them to become a leader. And just the other day I saw that they're now a director of sales development at another organization.

And I was like, yes, let's go. So excited to see that. Um, you know, their journey went from an SDR to a territory manager and then ultimately enterprise sales. And then now a director of inside director of, um, SDRs. It's remarkable to see that kind of growth, especially when the person that you trained, that you managed, that you helped get on to this career path. When you see them go from seed to tree, that level of satisfaction, I think is unrivaled for me by any other professional angle that I've experienced in the past. Because when you turn somebody on to the industry of sales, you know, that there's a chance that this might not be for them. No matter how gung ho they come in, the stress and anxiety of sales is not something that everybody is capable of dealing with.

And they could be in the role for a year, maybe two, and then run away to some other industry or run away to some other department, not sales, right? I have to get out from under the quota is an enormous comment that you hear from people that have been in sales for a long time and are ready to set it down for a while and do something else. But when they really excel at it and they really get involved in it and they learn the science behind it and the art of sales become something that they're passionate about, you can see this growth pattern taking place. Oh, it's funny, you're working, work pattern, growth pattern. I'm sure that there's some correlations there to be, I don't know why I just thought of that, but like, makes sense.

But that kind of growth is really remarkable. And yet there's a level of stress and anxiety around it that I don't think we give it enough credit and enough room to breathe. How do you cope with that growth along with all the other stresses in our lives? Because let's be frank, when you're aiming for professional growth, it takes a lot of your time. Because it demands so much attention, your attention in other areas of your life tend to get pulled away. So I want to talk, I want to really focus on not just the time management, but like the mental strength management, the division of mental power that we put into our careers as sales professionals, and then that mental power that we reserve for our families, our friends, our downtime, our spare time, our reboot time, if you will, that can be very challenging for people in your position.

Do you have any advice for those out there that feel this every day? Advice is that surround yourself with positive influences, people that lead by example and do, as example, I definitely, and people know this about me, this is not news, but I put my career first, first and foremost, over every single thing in my life in 2015, 2016, 2017. I was very focused on my career and my family came second. That shift has happened since, you know, the tragedy in my family, and now I try to lead by thinking that today could be my last day on earth because having lost somebody that can really impact you. So I would say making sure you have positive influences in your life, making sure you have a support system and taking time to, because if you are not good, then the rest of your experience as a leader will not be as good either.

You have to make sure you take care of yourself first. So I try to live that every day. Like I said, I'm not perfect. I don't lead, excuse me, by example, every single day. I aim to, but, you know, setting daily intentions for me, it starts with writing in a gratitude journal every morning and talk about my daily intentions. It starts with meditating every morning to get my head straight. And if I don't do some of those things, sometimes my day does, gets away from me and I don't have a great day. So I think it really just depends on what you want to focus on and how you can get there with the people that are in your life. All right, y'all. Lindsay has an enormous heart and I love her authentic concern for how her team's evolving mentally as they move through their day-to-day routines.

Be sure to shoot over your sales wins at jamesatjbarrows.com to be highlighted on next week's episode. Today, we want to give a huge shout out to Israel De Leon of Tres Ses Nueve. After joining JB Sales On Demand and taking filling the funnel, Israel was able to schedule 24 meetings in just nine days, which is something that he used to do in a month. The training has given his company the opportunity to grow and continue to bring people on and use the same techniques. Way to go, Israel. Keep shining. You can set 24 meetings in nine days, just like Israel did, with the process and structure and the tactical takeaways provided in your annual subscription of JB Sales On Demand. Join us today at ondemand.jbarrows.com to start producing more results using Filling the Funnel.

But you get access to more than just our prospecting training. You get access to 100% of all of our content and courses, plus all the extras like webinars and livecasts. This is a real game changer for you, the frontline sales rep. That URL again, ondemand.jbarrows.com. We'll see you there. Let's get back to Lindsay and I for the rest of the conversation. Do you have a cutoff time? Last week or in general? That's the best response. You know, just in general, like, do you try to say, after 7 p.m. tonight, I am not going to look at my phone anymore or log into my email or check my LinkedIn, right? Like, do you cut yourself off like I do? I do it. And the time kind of varies here and there. I spend a lot of time working in the morning.

But my go-to is, like, as soon as I can, I'm going to disconnect from my work brain so that my James brain, you know, the my time can actually kick in. And I'm really good at protecting that time. Do you have a similar mentality that helps you to cope with the day-to-day just so that you have time to reboot? You are my role model for this. I aim to be like you more. No, I'm serious because we've had this conversation before. Yeah. I close my work computer at 5.30 every day. And I do family time from 5.30 to 8.30 or 9 every day. What I choose to do after that, except for last week, is normally Lindsay time. So it's Lindsay time doing my favorite hobbies. It's Lindsay time doing anything but trying to think about work.

And sometimes, some days are better than others. Some days I've got a lot on my mind and I have things I want to jot down to accomplish a task list for tomorrow. But in general, I try to reserve that time for Lindsay time. Yeah. I want to give some actionable tips to those of you guys out there that are listening because we, Lindsay and I do have, we are great friends and we talk often. And this is something we do talk about frequently. But, you know, I have two tips that I give to people that tend to help them be more productive without taking their attention away from their family time or their own time for that matter. My first tip for people is always to get up earlier. I start my day so early.

Today was an exception for some unknown reason. I managed to sleep until like 7.15. I woke up like, what happened? It was crazy because I never make it that long. But I get up at like 5, 5.30 most days and that window in the morning is undisturbed. So I can get so much done. One project at a time throughout the week. Getting up early and just knocking those projects out because there's a time window there where nobody is hitting me in Slack. I don't have my phone ringing off the hook. Nobody's texting me. You know, my kids are at school or it's still asleep getting ready, you know, doing their thing. Like nothing is happening there that will pull me away from my focus. So that's my first tip.

And then my second tip is work on the weekends. Weekend time is easy to get like one or two hours in the morning in and then enjoy the day. But that one or two hours on Saturday and Sunday morning, again, super early for me because I just get up early. But like that window of time on the weekend also undisturbed because the rest of your team is most likely not working. So everything is not coming into you and distracting you from the goal. Do you have any tips around that you like anything that you do specifically to offer the audience about the time management factor and having that cutoff time so that you can manage accordingly? You know, it's really interesting you bring up the weekends because my week my week planning happens Sunday night.

And I truly believe that makes for a good week because I take that I call it a power hour. Yeah. So I look at the phone and it's nine o'clock, let's say. And I say, OK, you have one hour to get it together. And that's when I do my calendaring. That's when I set up my one on ones for the week. That's when I do all my blocks blocks of time that I need to reserve for administrative things, what have you. But that's when I get my buffer cue ready for the week for social and things like that. And that's my power hour. And so that's that's one tip. And it ties into you. I would say another tip is figure out how your mornings want to go. And what I mean by that is I like to have a leisurely cup of espresso.

If I don't wake up at a certain time, then it's going to be this quick cup of espresso where you can't enjoy it and you can't enjoy the view that you have in front of you or you can't go outside. And like going outside in the morning, bundle up if you're somewhere cold, but, you know, go outside and feel the fresh air and start your day off with like grounding yourself outside. That's something that's helped me as well. That's a great tip. I know you've seen these posts that I put out, but I live right in front of Mount Chilhowee. So my first cup of coffee is usually had in my carport as I look out at the sun coming up over Mount Chilhowee, which is a beautiful place. For those of you that don't know, Mount Chilhowee is in East Tennessee in the Great Smoky Mountains.

But when you look at your team as a whole, what is it that stands out to you from a mental health perspective? Is it their ability to communicate with you effectively because they're secure and they don't have that, you know, manager, you know, employee kind of divide in their mind? Or is there something tactical that they do as a result of you giving them that mental health space that you think improves their results consistently? Trust and vulnerability, James. Trust and vulnerability. Tell me more about that. Trust and vulnerability. It's earning trust quick by... Is this you earning their trust or is it them earning your trust to give them the space? Both. It's both. They know when they come to my team.

I think there's a reputation that I have that Lindsay is more hands off, that she's going to allow you to do your job. And by the way, she's gone through a mental breakdown and she did a TEDx talk on it and she's really open on mental health. So there's this openness that they know that they can feel with me because every staff meeting, I start with the question, what are you grateful for? And we go around the room and everyone says what they're grateful for. So it's the vulnerability that they feel they can have with me after the trust is earned. And I try to win trust quickly and I think, you know, implementing work patterns has helped me a lot, but also having conversations where I just pick up the phone, not a Zoom.

I pick up the phone and call them. Hey, how are you doing? Yeah. Asking them twice. How are you really doing? And having that relationship where, yeah, there's still the leader and SDR relationship in the terms of respect for, you know, your role. But there's also that friendship that you evolve into as well, where you can share things that you might not share prior to. Yeah. You know, I want to harp on that for just a moment and pause and really dive into that because I think that for a long time, and maybe this is a shift in our culture that we're experiencing right now, you tell me. But for a long time, I think managers were told, trained, specifically warned, do not build relationships with your employees.

They are not your friends. They are employees. I am happy, very happy that that mentality is fading away. And we are starting to look at our employees as humans just like us that need support, that need motivation, that need inspiration, that need affirmation about what they're doing. I have my own insecurities. Knowing that about myself is a great way for me to kind of go for that, do a good job, go for that accolade for, hey, great job, James. And if you do that, everything else kind of comes very naturally. But I think for a long time, there was this culture of be careful because when you develop friendships with these people, it becomes a lot harder to manage them and they could take advantage of you.

How does this work for Lindsay Boggs? It's totally changing that paradigm that you just mentioned. Yeah. We are also told as a parent, you shouldn't be friends with your children because you want to respect that parent and child relationship. I totally disagree. My mom is my best friend. My mom's my best friend. Samesies. I totally disagree with how things were. And I'm more focused on building that trust, evolving into a friendship because they're going to trust you more and they're going to work harder for you. And I had somebody last week tell me that I get up every morning because I want to make you proud. They told that to me. And that came with time. That wasn't like they got to my team and all of a sudden, yeah, they're going to have that mindset.

Yes. Yeah. Like I won the lottery, right? But it took and this person shared with me, you know, it took time. It wasn't an overnight thing. But, you know, being on your team for a month, I wanted to work for you, Lindsay. I wanted to do my very best for you. And that was why I did my best on your team. And so hearing that, you know, it was just confirmation that what I'm doing, some of what I'm doing is working well for the culture of the team and for their, you know, development. I'm happy to see this mentality fading away in a big, in a big way now. And I think it's important that we view our employees as just like us, right? Like John, John, my, my John is very good at like, we have a flat organization.

We are all the same. We all, all of our feedback matters. And because of that, I think our culture is quite complimentary to this human aspect, right? There's an element, I think, of camaraderie there. I want, I want to win because if I win, you win. You're my leader. You're held accountable for me winning. I need to win so that you can win becomes that universal goal for everybody on the team. Hey guys, we're going to do this together. I talked to a lot of managers about getting down in the trenches with their team. John will tell this story all the time about a leader that came and busted into a room when he was a cold caller once and was like, how many calls did you make today to everybody around the room?

And John turned around and said, how many calls did you make today? And, and the manager kind of balked at him and John was pretty sure that he was done. But then the next day that same leader came in and got on the phones and it turned out he was really good. I know you have incredible talents as a sales professional. And I know that you're the type of manager that probably does get down into the trenches with their team and do the thing alongside them. Tell me what their response is like when they see that. They think it's wicked cool. They're like, all right, Boggs is prospecting this person on LinkedIn. Let's see what her message says. And let's see if they get a response. Let's see if she gets a response.

Yeah. I mean, they love it. And we've done cold calling exercises, especially in the office. We would do cold calling days where I would sit next to them at their desk. I would have my headset on, they'd have theirs on and we would do every other, every other I would call. And it was so much fun. It's more challenging remotely. We found ways to do it. But in person was so much fun because I would just sit with them and, you know, and I would guess what? I had some bad calls and they got to witness them because, by the way, I'm not perfect. Right. So I would have some calls where I was just like, oh, my gosh. And what I did is we record every call. I would bring my bad call to our call review and say, hey, y'all, like, let's dissect this call, shall we?

Yeah, watch where I tank this. And they loved it. They loved it. They loved it. They were coaching me. And, like, that's how it should be. It shouldn't be. I shouldn't be. You should not be a leader of something that you would not do yourself. Yeah. And you should not ask something of your team if you would not do it yourself. So. Yeah, I agree. And I also feel like if you're going to tell somebody that they need to do something, you should probably know how to do it. Right. You should show them that you do it every day as well. And that story that John tells, the guy was awesome on the phones and ended up doing really well. And John was impressed with that. And he became more of a leader to John instead of just a manager, like you said.

And I think that's a good hallmark for people to look for in leadership. So I had this lady that was talking about getting a new job and, you know, wanting to find the right fit. And she reached out to me and asked me about funding and this company and, you know, all these different things. And I said, look, go for happiness and the belief in what you sell. Right. If you go for happiness, you're happy in the role and you believe in what you sell. That's the only thing that you should be looking at in getting a new role aside from stability and culture. All four of those things have to work together for you to be successful long term at a sales role. If you want to get that longevity out of that particular job, that particular company.

So that's how I kind of aim when people are asking me about, you know, what should I be looking at? What should I be looking for? Look for those things and you'll find success. I want to know. We talked a little bit about the one on ones and how you've kind of restructured them thanks to work patterns, which I think is great. But tell me about when they have a prompt and prepare for that one on one, how do they prepare and then how do you prepare? Yeah, they prepare because I ask a series of questions. There's usually about eight questions that I ask them in work patterns and every week it changes. Two remain the same, though. Two are always what are you grateful for and how are you doing? Those two are always constants.

But maybe that week I ask them, what's your plan for attacking your no-shows? And maybe this week I ask them, you know, what's one thing you're going to do to pay it forward? Something like that. Who are you going to network with this week? Things like that. So they prepare by answering the questions and then they have the opportunity to add their own topics. So maybe they want to talk about career development further or maybe they want to talk about, hey, I don't understand this product. Could you elaborate or could we get an expert in to teach us? Yeah. So they get prompt as well. Then the idea is that they fill it out 24 hours in advance before a one on one. And I have times blocked off in my calendar to prepare the day before for my one on one and read through the answers.

So when I go to the one on one, I'm not surprised by anything. Everything is out on the table and I know what we're going to be covering. And it's not because before it used to be my Moleskine book where I would write down like four things that I wanted to cover. And then it'd be like, OK, you have anything? Oh, you don't? OK, well, have a great day. Yeah. And it wasn't very productive. So for this, I know exactly what they want to cover, where their head's at, where my head's at. And then we're able to get in more time to do like one on one call reviews in our one on ones where we have more time to talk about career development. We have more time to to plan for what's next. And so that's the biggest change.

And that's how I prepare is reading them before, you know, my one on one and a day before and being prepped for what what I know we're going to talk about. Yeah, I will say that one of the top things that I was doing in my one on ones as a business development manager is I was asking them, how can I best support and help you to reach those goals? That is a question I think a lot of reps are not prepared for and they don't have a lot of, you know, things worked up to give you. But they have to think about it for a minute and then they have to know where they're struggling so that you can help them get through that. And it really helped people to zero in on where they needed help. You know, man, I'm getting a lot of things that are not my priority and I have to like I feel like I have to stop working on hitting my goal to get those done.

That's a great opportunity as a manager to be like, what are you working on? That's not goal related. And they have a list of things. Oh, yeah. Of things that they feel like they're responsible for that are not conducive to them hitting the goal. And you can begin taking those things away from them so they can get more focused on the goal. And that's a relief for them. But if you don't ask that question, you're never going to know where you can support that person best. And you're never and they're never going to feel like they can come to you with that type of thing. I think sometimes we feel a little intimidated as employees when it comes to going to our manager and saying I'm struggling. And I think the reason for that is because we don't want to come off as incompetent or uneducated.

And John will say all the time, confidence comes from competence. I'm confident enough to go to my leadership and say, I'm struggling here. What's your suggestion? How can you help? Right. And I think because of that, I get more competent each time I'm able to say that and learn something. Do you have people that come to you and say, here's where I'm struggling? Absolutely. Yeah. Because that's a question that I put in work patterns a lot. It's the question is, I'm struggling with dot, dot, dot. And they will say time management. I'm struggling with being overwhelmed with overdue tasks. I'm struggling with personalizing my emails. I'm struggling with all of anything. And so that way I know, OK, and then the follow up question that I give them, just like you said, is what can I do to help you or what is one thing?

And I and I'll even in work patterns, I'll say, what is one thing I can do this week to help you get to where you need to be against your quota or against your career development goals or what have you? So those are really great questions. I love those and I use them often. Yeah, that's good. I learned the hard way to ask questions about me in one on ones, because our our our I think our instinct is to be super hyper focused on them, you know, and also, you know, let's just let's just get this out and piss some people off here. I'm not very KPI focused in a one on one as a business development director. When I had the team, it was not how many calls did you make? How many emails did you send?

And it was more like, can you show me a few emails that you've written so we can dissect them and look at them? Can you, you know, put a call recording that went well in front of me and then put a call in front of me that didn't go so well in front of me? Let's talk about that. And that was my prep for a one on one previous. The reason why that was important, I think, was because we were specifically focusing on something they did every day and trying to improve the result from that over and over again. And and I think it helped them to write better emails, drive more conversations the right way, be a little less aggressive, a little less salesy. Let's be honest, many fresh new sales reps come in with a very a bad misconception about what sales is.

And it takes a leader like you, a leader like me, a leader like John to break that habit and be like, no, dude, this is not boiler room. That's not what we do here, you know, so there's that part of it, too. You have a last talking point here that I think is so interesting on building remote teams and you have something called log offs in quotes. Can you tell me about that? Because I think this is really interesting. Log offs evolved around June. I want to say May or June where I realized I don't know a lot other because this was before I implemented work patterns remind you. So I don't know a lot about my team outside of work and we don't have the office to go get a cup of coffee. We don't have the office to go get a snack in the break room.

So I said, let's do a log off and let's have one person from the team choose the theme. And so theme number one, I had one of my team members choose it and they said, what are you Netflix binging right now that we need to watch? That was our theme. We talk about it for 30 minutes, favorite shows to binge watch. And the rule is that you can't talk about work at all or you get kicked out of the room. OK. Yes. This is like personal conversation around you and the team and the dynamic. And it's more like an investment in them personally than it is the investment in them professionally. And I think this is interesting, guys, because I will often say you've got to be willing to grow personally if you want to grow professionally.

And I think I think you're facilitating that quite well with this log offs. I see this as like a something that should be like a cult management thing. We should all jump on this ship of learning who works for us, right? Learning who works with us. Who are these people? What are they passionate about? What do they do? What are their personal preferences? What kind of personality do they have? Are they fun? Are they funny? Do they have, you know, some sort of like mental block that is stopping them from growing? You'll only learn that stuff from conversations that are not about work. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things we realized in the last log off on Friday was no one knows how tall each other is.

Oh, because we all live in this box, right? Yeah. So I found out one of my team members is six foot three. And I was like, no kidding. And they said, how tall are you, Lindsay? And I said, I'm six feet. And they're like, no kidding. Yeah. They had no idea. Yeah. How would they know? Well, they might have known from that picture of you next to Shaquille O'Neal, but. Maybe. Yeah. Well, Lindsay, I want to thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate all the time. Is there anything that you want to throw out there that everybody should know about you? Everyone should know about me that I am a fairly open book about my mental health journey. And I highly recommend that you start focusing on yourself and you'll be a better leader.

That's what I'll say. Amazing. I want to tell you guys to check out Uncrushed, specifically the episode where I get to interview Lindsay about a traumatic event that happened in her life and how she made it through it. Remarkable soul right in front of me here. I want to thank you again for coming out on the show. I know everybody got a lot out of it. So I hope everyone has a great week. Thank you so much for tuning in and we'll talk to you guys next time. Make it happen. Okay, everybody. Lindsay delivered some great stuff for us to consider. The mental health of our salespeople has a direct impact on not just the consistent performance that they can deliver, but also the results that they produce on a month to month basis.

And Lindsay does a great job providing a really healthy environment that's conducive to growth at Citrix. Don't forget to visit ondemand.jbarrows.com to get a look at all of the value inside JB Sales On Demand. Subscribe today. Don't wait. No matter what you might think, your success is in your own hands. Invest in yourself and take your sales results to the next level. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks a lot for joining us. We're going to dive into another great episode to help you sell better. See you next week, everybody.