214: Jeff Hoffman On Career Inflection Points

What's poppin' y'all, it's your man James, Say What Sales Buckley, and you're tuned in to this week's episode of Make It Happen Mondays with your host, Jon Barrows. Huge shout out to all of our partners, SalesLoft, Gong, Proposify, Vidyard, ZoomInfo, and Rise. We appreciate everything you do. On this episode, Jon connects with his friend and mentor, Jeff Hoffman, on milestones and how to navigate the waters of growth. For those that don't know, Jeff and Jon have a deep-rooted history that goes all the way back to the Basho days, and they've remained friends through all these years. Jon and Jeff are going to talk a lot about each decade of your life in their perspective and what it should be focused on.

The conversation really takes off from there. Before we dive in, I want to let you know that our mission remains to elevate the sales profession and remove the stigma that comes along with being a quote-unquote salesperson. We're changing the routines of sales professionals everywhere by providing them with the skills, techniques, and tactics that they need to hit their quotas consistently and gain the upward mobility that they so desire. From prospecting to negotiation, all the way down to closed one opportunities, you can find all that you need in your JB Sales membership today. So join us at ondemand.jbarrows.com and start selling better today. Let's get into it with Jeff and Jon. Hey, everybody.

What's going on? So this episode of Make It Happen Mondays is with Jeff Hoffman, as most of you know, a mentor of mine, the guy who started Basho. And I went into it thinking I wanted to talk to him about closing techniques and whatever. But this morning, as I was thinking it, I'm in a really interesting spot in my career right now. And Jeff is somebody I look to for advice. And so I decided to use this podcast as a little bit of an open therapy session for me. So hopefully you get some value out of it. Jeff and I go all over the place about career and decision points and inflection points and careers and how we look at things. And hopefully you'll get some value out of it. All right. Thanks so much for listening.

Hey, man. How's it going in Nantucket? Vineyard. Close. Good. Oh, Vineyard. Sorry. Sorry. You don't have to apologize. They're both awesome. How you doing, man? Good. Good. It's, you know, a lot of things going on, which is actually I wanted to kind of pick your brain here a little bit. This was more like some podcast, right? And I was thinking, all right, let's go talk about, you know, closing or whatever, but which we can do. But I was curious. I'm kind of on this interesting. I'm in an interesting spot right now. And I could almost use this as a therapy session, if you don't mind. And I thought it'd be kind of cool to have a kind of an open conversation about career inflection. I got my Baileys.

Nice. I got my, so I got my Baileys and my, and my dunks right here too. All right. Hold on. Talk to me, Goose. So, so the, the, the theme here is like career inflection points, which I know you've had quite a few of. Um, and, uh, and by the way, I got my Fridays off too. So I got my, my days Fridays. So that's why I got the Baileys already prebuilt into the, uh, dunks coffee here. Um, but yeah. We're like 40 proof. Doesn't even count. Yeah. It's not that bad. Um, but it, you know, with the whole thing. And I think I told, I don't know if I, have I talked to you since my dad passed? Briefly. A couple of times, but nothing work related. We were just catching up. Yeah. It was one of those things where I think I told you this, that when I, when I ripped myself out of the business for like three weeks, right.

Cause I called like when my mom called and said, Hey, you know, you gotta, you gotta come home. Right. So I was like, all right. I called Chris. I was like, look, clear my calendar for three weeks. I don't know what's going to happen. If clients are pissed, they're pissed. I don't care. And, um, when I came back, like fucking company was running like a drum, man. I mean, it was like business was happening. Revenue was there, you know, clients were happy and, and legit for the first time in my career, I've actually seen that, you know, that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel we all talk about. It's like, Oh no, it's there. Right. It's there. I've been saying that for the past 10 years and I've been full of shit.

Cause it's been so light, but I've always been in our world, professional services. Right. And I'm like, where is this light without me working and being the heavy hitter as far as the revenue is concerned. And this is the first time where I've been able to say, Holy shit, it doesn't have to be me. Right. It doesn't have to be like, I could go away for a while and this business runs. That's, that must've been very, um, uh, uh, uh, encouraging, encouraging, weird, like all everything at once, because I've kind of been put in a position now where I'm like, all right, what, what, what's next for me? You know what I mean? And I mean that not like, I'm going to go do something different. It's just, I mean, you know, me, man, I've been a CEO, you know, my title's in CEO, but I'm, you might as well call me a chief training officer.

Cause that's really all I've done for 10 fucking years. Right. I've been, I've been working 15 hours a day, six days a week, traveling all over the world, training as much as I possibly can. And on like, you know, when I'm in my hot tub at six o'clock at night, you know, smoking a joint, I call up Chris and I do a little CEO work. I'm like, Hey, you know, here's, here's a couple of ideas. And he's like, Oh, that's great. Okay. See you later. And then I go back to training all day long. So now I'm trying to look and say like, how do I even reflect on what that next stage looks like for me? And, and I'd love to kind of just talk through your journey of the different points and how you've like, when you've hit certain milestones in your career or whatever it's been, like how you've even looked at it in, even in your twenties, thirties and forties, if that's cool, you know what I mean?

Cause that's where I'm also looking at that. Like in your twenties, it's like, you know, go, go, go. Who gives a shit? You know, I'm just going to try everything. And then thirties are like, all right, I kind of got it figured out, but I still don't know enough. And then your forties are like, all right, I got this shit figured out. But then there's that, huh? What's next? So if you, do you think that would be a cool conversation for us to have? Like part of me was just like, you know what? Fuck it. Let's just, let's have the call. And then spring is a season of rebirth. So it's, it's a, it's a common place to kind of reflect, right. And make sure that we're on the journey we've chosen instead of the journey.

That shows us. Exactly. And what a better weekend than a glorious master's weekend. And I love it because was it Rose? Who was it yesterday? You shot a 65. He's like five strokes ahead of everyone else. And I think that's, that's kind of what it's like, you know, it's like everyone kind of bunches in the middle of those bell curves. And if you want to be on that edge that you do, that I do, that all the folks that, you know, love our stuff do. Yeah. You got to take these moments to just step back and take a wider view. I, I start with what something my dad kind of coached my, me and my brother on when we were younger and, and I've kind of morphed it, but this has always been my idea. Even, even into college.

The idea was that your twenties are for effing around. Don't worry about it. Doesn't matter. Nothing's going to stick. You know, it's a little tougher with social, but still just have fun. Try things, explore, get courageous, make horrible errors, make spectacular gaffes. And don't worry about goals as far as lifelong journeys. And don't, because you're, you're, you don't even know who you're going to be, but twenties have fun. Thirties pick a lane. I think that's an important element. So pick a lane doesn't mean you're picking your career job. We can dig into that a little bit, but it just means, okay, I think this is where I'm call. I'm called. Um, it can be a broad lane, but you're going to stick with it.

And the reason you're going to stick with it is because your thirties are brutal earnings wise. They just are, you spend a lot and you don't make them. You don't make much. It's when you start a family. It's when you get your first home. It's when you start planning for things that you thought only old men and women. And, and, and meanwhile, you're broke as hell and working your ass off. And that's the way it works in this country and many countries like ours. So thirties, just pick a lane, head down, learn your craft, learn your path. Look, you know, you get good at it, get really good at it because your forties is your time to earn forties is about making money, putting in the hard work. This is the, the four, your forties are your years for prime income.

So you want to be prepared in that picking of a lane strategy in your thirties to spend your forties making bank and being really smart with your money. Don't buy fancy cars and don't do fancy vacations. Save, save, save, save, save, save. And enjoy the eighth wonder of the world, which is the, the, the wonder of compounding. Enjoy what happens when you save off of a high income for your forties. And what that becomes, which leads you to your fifties, um, which is, um, get wealthy. So your, your forties are for earning and your fifties are for accumulating wealth. So your fifties, you should be downshifting on that hard work you did in your forties and enjoying the fruits of your labor and figuring out how to create the wealth that would support the lifestyle you want to have for the final chapter that you want to explore from your either career or person.

And that kind of umbrella, John, that's kind of how I, it was always above me when I was making choices. So little choices, big choices, particularly big ones, I come back to that idea, the decades and ask myself, is that swimming in the right direction of that idea? Or am I not swimming in the direction of that idea? And I'll tell you when I've deviated from the big plan in my twenties, thirties and forties, and we all have, I mean, we'll talk about it. Yeah, I get burned. I got burned. And when I went back to that, uh, that mantra, um, good things happen to me. So it's a lot about, you know, Gary V talks about be patient, but quick. Right. You have a long career. Oh, that's a great way of saying it.

That's a great, great, great way of saying it. Be patient and quick. I like that. Right. So like patient in the long term, you got a 40, 50, 60, 70 year career, but you got to, you know, be quick in your decisions in the short term to kind of get through to that plan. And days are long, years are short. And I don't think you realize that until you get older and have kids. Right. Yeah. Like that. I'm going to college now. I mean, when that happens. Right. And how do you look at, how do you look at retirement for you? Because I like, I think the traditional 65 retired and then play golf, like that's just never been in my head. Like I look at retirement as work. Cause I want to work, not cause I have to work.

Right. Cause I think I'm always going to work. Like, I just think it's in my DNA. I don't think I'm the type that's ever going to just kick back and do nothing. I've, I've solidified my goal, I think, and I could be wrong, but Charlotte's eight years, she's 10 years old now. So I got about eight years left, which is bananas. Right. Um, I got about eight years left of her school, like before she goes to college. Okay. Or whatever she decides to do after she graduates high school. Um, so in my mind, I've, I've kind of now set this goal and it's never been clearer for me. Um, now I got to figure out how to get it, but I really do want, and this might sound funny, but, uh, I want to buy a, like a mini boutique hotel in, on a beach resort, like in Costa Rico or Puerto Rico.

So that's four stories and first stories, a bar slash club lounge. Second story is restaurant. Third story is sleep. Four stories, a pool and make it so that I can, I can, my, you know, Kim and I will live there with like a bed and breakfast and all of our friends can come whenever they want and they won't have to pay a dime. All you got to do is pay airfare to get there and then everything's included. Like that's my dream of retirement, but that means I got to get probably 20 million in the bank in the next year, eight years here to be able to afford that four story rooftop bar pool hotel in Costa Rica costs. But I bet it's a lot of coins. It's, it's not, it's not as much as you'd think, right?

There's, there's some, you know, broken down ones and whatever you just buy, you know, whatever. But I want kind of like a plug and play little boutique shop, you know, can sleep 10 people at most type of thing and just come and go and live that lifestyle. Like that's where, and then travel, do whatever we want to do. So I'm now pretty clear on that. Now I have to put a dollar figure to that. Now I have to back into that. Right. So, but let me ask you going back to my original question on that. How do you, how do you look at retirement? Is, is it just, you know, do it still doing stuff or is it just enjoying life at a certain age? So, yeah, I'm a little different on this. Cause I like to think I enjoy life at every age.

Exactly. I've always had fun. I had fun. I had fun in my third. Having fun now. I don't. That's what, by the way, and I'm sorry to jump in, but that's, what's so depressing about me. That's what's so depressing to me about retirement is that people think, oh, I'm going to work my ass off. So when I'm 65 and I'm old and I can't fucking walk around, that's when I'm going to enjoy my life. Like that sucks to me. I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you my definition. I think it's going to, hopefully you go, ah, stop using retirement as a noun. It's a verb. It's not a retirement, like a destination. That's a death sentence. It's retiring as a verb. I will retire from my last endeavor. So I don't look at retirement as this journal journey destination.

Oh, I made it. Now I don't have to do anything. That's not my nature and yours. And I would argue most people, I want to retire from, and I look at retirement as retiring from endeavors that you're pursuing only for money. That's what retirement is. It has nothing to do with working or, or, or, or, or ambition, or you want to go to the beach all day, go to the beach all day. You want to open up a hotel in Costa Rica? I mean, the idea is that your life doesn't stop. What changes at retirement and why that should be a good goal, the idea of retirement, is that you are retiring from having to earn money. It doesn't mean you stop earning money. It doesn't mean you stop working. So for me, as I will do what I do now until I'm no longer having fun doing it.

And it doesn't matter to me how old I am. And are there things I want to still do with my life? You better believe it. Are they very different from what I do now? Many are. And I look forward to enjoying the opportunity to explore it. But I don't have a stopwatch or a tape that I got to break, you know, like a race. Retire from what makes you unhappy. Maybe that's a good way to look at retirement. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of my loose definition is, again, work because I want to, not because I have to, which means I can make up. But that doesn't mean I want to do. Look, I've been doing this as well. Like you, I started my company in 2002. What year is this? 20 years. Yeah. Am I sick of it? No.

Are there things that don't give me the pleasure they used to? Definitely. Yeah. Are there new things that I'm getting pleasure in? Yes. And as long as that continues, I'll keep doing this. But if I run out of cool new stuff to do, I'm out. So this is what I'm trying to figure out right now. Because I'm on that, I think I'm at that inflection point right now. They don't pay me, but I always plug buy. My favorite. My favorite. Love it. We'll get them sponsoring the podcast. My listeners know what I'm doing. Yeah, I know. My friend from John, check out buy. 10 calories. Delicious. That point of kind of figuring out what drives you. I, you know, Morgan and I talk a lot about this as far as time management.

I don't like whatever about time management, energy management. I like managing what gives you energy versus what takes energy away from you, right? Because if I'm, I could be exhausted and get two hours of sleep. But if I'm doing something that gives me energy, right? That I'm amped up for, then it's a good use of my time in a lot of ways. But if I'm doing stuff that sucks and it drains me, I want to figure out a way to get away from that. And so, you know, from a training standpoint, as an example, I still love training. I still love the vibe that I get, even though it's remote from, from the light bulbs that go off. Right. I, I, I do that still drives me, but it doesn't drive me nearly as much anymore.

And I do training because I know it's valuable and it, and it still pays the bills in a lot of ways, but I'm now searching for what's next. Right. And I got this new online program, you know, on demand, I got these sponsorships, I got these cool things happening, which, which I don't know much about. Right. Cause I've actually handed that over to Chris a hundred percent and said, Hey, run this while I go generate the revenue to make that happen, to allow that to happen. And now all of a sudden that has happened, right? Like those two pieces have real legs to them at this point, but I'm still trying to figure out like, what's my now, what's my value to the equation as a overarching CEO, as opposed to a chief training officer.

And I'm just, I don't know whether I just need to chill out for a little while for like a month or two. And I don't want to take a, say, take a sabbatical, but really just stop for a minute and actually just work what I would consider a normal work day. Right. Which is, which has happened over the past couple of weeks here. Like I've actively backed down from training and all of a sudden I'm done at five o'clock, you know, a few meetings here or there. I got, you know, I got a, you know, one little hour long thing with a client or something like that. And I'm done at five and I got no, do you find yourself getting recharged or do you find yourself feeling restless? I think I'm, I'm in the middle.

I think my brain is restless. I, I, because I'm trying to figure, I, because I'm, I think I'm trying to force it a little bit too much, but my body is like, I'm taking care of myself now. I'm, I'm working out in the mornings. Uh, you know, I hit the hot tub in the afternoons. I'm trying to eat better. Like, so all those positive, I'm getting way more sleep than I ever did, but my, that's a big deal. But my brain is restless. I, and so many folks that attracted us sales, you can call it a personality, you can call it extroverts, you can call it whatever you want. We do tend to be what I would call brain generated when it comes to our energy. We get it from our brain. Our brain is our Swiss army knife, but the truth is we're more than a brain.

We're also a body and people like you and I tend to use our brain to solve body problems. What do you mean by that? What you do next, what the next adventure is, where the next horizon is, that's not going to come from your brain. That's going to come from your spirit, energy, and body. So it's not like, let me think about what would be a good thing to do now. Your brain can't answer that question, but it's going to try to. So it's going to be running like a million miles an hour to get you to try to find it, try to answer it. The universe, in my opinion, rewards intention, not brain intention, body intention, commitment, action. The universe rewards action and intention, and it greatly rewards great intention.

So instead of asking yourself, John, or at least this is what I try to do, what, what do I, how do I fix this problem? If I can't come to a quick answer up here, then I stop trying to let my brain, trying to figure out, try to let my hands figure it out. I will guarantee you that you, if you sat thoughtfully and made a list, John, of all the things that gave your body and spirit pleasure and tap back to when you were a kid, just make a long list. Some things you might not have done since you were 10. Some things you might've done last month. Doesn't matter. Make that long list. And it's not just around skiing or walking your dog. It's also like, I love to engage in healthy debate with people I respect.

I love to explore parts of the world I've never been to. I like to be alone and do this. I like to be with others and do this. Like that kind of list. And then start playing in that list with some of your free time. Not with goal, not with purpose, with intention to feed the body. By feeding the body and what it wants, because while you and I have been working our asses off, guess who we've neglected? Right. Now, we maybe go to the gym and maybe we watch what we eat. Maybe we watch, but you know, it's all brain shit. We're not giving our body the nourishment it wanted when it was five, when it was 10, when it was 20. So give it some. It deserves it. It's been carrying you for 20 years as you've earned.

It's been doing its job. It's time to repay the favor, calm the brain down, get your body to do the things that give it pleasure. I'm telling you, the universe opens up opportunities when it lets it, when it's, when, when, when your body's being heard. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, it's like the first time I've had two real inflection points in my life and my career. And I even wrote a blog on it called stop doing what you're supposed to do. Right. And it's this whole mentality of like, we're supposed to get a job. We're supposed to have, you know, get married. We're supposed to have a house. We're supposed to have kids. And I remember the first, my, my first, right. Yeah, exactly. And, um, you know, for me, I remember the first time, you know, I was, I was engaged for seven years.

Well, I was, I was with this girl for seven years out of college. Right. And we are, so what do you do after you're with somebody for seven years, you get engaged. Right. And then you buy a house. And, and even though I knew it was wrong, right. I just, it wasn't right. The relationship wasn't right. She, thank God, she broke it up with me. Like she called it off. And at first I was devastated, but then it was like this huge weight was lifted off of my shoulders. And I remember, and you'll appreciate this. I don't, did I ever tell you the story of me, like, like wigging out at Thrive and taking a cross country trip? Uh, maybe. So I'm sitting there and I was, I was literally, I had just broken up with my fiance.

I was just, I was working 17 hours a day, seven days a week for a startup and like doing this and everything. And I almost had a nervous breakdown. And I remember walking into my, the other three founders. And I was like, look, guys, I got to get out of here. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, I just have to leave. And so I don't know when I'm going to come back. If you let me leave, I'll probably come back. But if you don't, I probably won't anyways. So, and they're like, well, do you want to take a week now and a week later? I go, no, I'm taking three and I'll see you when I hopefully come back. And I sat there at a bar with my buddy, this kid, John Marcheto, who you would fucking love by the way.

Uh, and he was at the time he had us like a side job and whatever. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, man, I want to, I want to travel Europe and, but I don't have enough money to do that right now. And that's more of an individual, but I haven't seen this country yet. I haven't seen this country yet. And so I want to take a trip cross country, but I feel like the cross country thing is more of like a partner thing. Like I want to go with a buddy, but I don't know anybody who could take three weeks off. And he looks at me and goes, well, I could take three weeks off. He's like, I just, he's like, I don't, I don't have a job. So I got my side hustle here. He goes, but I can't afford it. And I did the quick math in my head.

And I was like, huh, it's not going to cost me that much more for bringing you on like same place, gas, same. And I'm like, what if I paid for it? Would you call me? He's like, yep. So at that moment, at that moment, I said, uh, and I said, I said, get in the car. And he goes, what? I go, we're going to go to your fucking house right now. We're going to pack that car and we're leaving. And we did. And so, and what happened there was we had a blast. It was only 18 days, but it was a body thing. And when I came back, the clarity was, you know, that's when I met Kim. That's when I'm like, all these things happens. And to your point, that universe kind of repaid a little bit of that, that when I repaid my soul, if you will, uh, to let go.

And the universe likes it when you're taking care of yourself and, and, and I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. It's more than a reset. Um, but I'll tell you if you, for me, if I do though, I've, I've had experiences, not quite as dramatic, but I've definitely had some of those experiences, but I found that if I had expectations that it was going to be this reset, it was a failure. So, so I know you, and I know that, that, you know, I, I, I, you know, I know we've talked about this because I, I, my, um, when I was 29. Um, I, uh, I took off and, um, travel the world. I did a, was gone, uh, left my home for a year, uh, uh, and traveled with no destination. And I went, I don't know, 30, 35 countries all over.

And, and, and, and I have a lifetime of memories from that year. This is a pre cell phone, pre internet. And, um, and yeah, I had some of that wanderlust and yeah, I had, I wanted to recharge. I, I, I just finished the twenties as I was telling you about, um, I was effing around. I think I knew I wanted to go sales full time, but I wanted to have that totem of a moment between these adventures. So my twenties had ended with a better way to spend years 29 and 30 than just out on the world. I came back and got into sales, but the, um, when I was gone, you know, not having the destination, not having the expectation of what, what inspiration will I find on this vacation? I just, I just went with a wind blue and, um, wow.

You know, what an experience. So, yeah, I think that, that, that your body, you know, you know, when it's time to do those things, um, many cultures, not in Western culture, but most cultures outside of Western Europe and the United States and Canada, most experience some love. Most cultures, uh, uh, celebrate. Totems, literally a totem pole in native American culture, but it exists in tattoos. It exists in lots of places where you commemorate specific dates in a person's, uh, waking journey to, to demonstrate. We, we do it a little bit. We wear the ring. We get married. Like we do little things to symbolize a passing through the looking glass to a new, to a new place, but not nearly enough because in Western culture, it's all about the brain.

So we don't typically talk about things that are more nourishing than that. But you know, an adventure, like you described, those are totems and they're critical in development. They're critical in adventure, critical in maturing, and they're critical in getting everything you can out of this, this life of ours. So what do you suggest to, to people who are going through that journey and aren't there? They feel like they're stuck in a lot of ways, like they're called the golden handcuffs, whatever you want to say, where they're at a job, they're making their money. They know they have to make that money to support their family and do all that other stuff, but they really don't like what they're doing.

And they're, they're stuck in this, this purgatory, if you will, like suggestions on how to, because I think a lot of my audience, I know a lot of my audience is, you know, they question whether sales is the career for them. They question, do I like, you know, this company that I'm working at? And I don't know, you know, all these different things. So how do you suggest like a framework, if you will, of thinking through that, that place where you're just like, eh, something doesn't feel right. Cause two things for me, unfortunately, well, fortunately for me, they were forced on me, right? My, that my first fiance breaking up with me. I, I, I'll be honest with you, man. Thrive getting bought.

That was a big one. Thrive getting, well, no, actually not Thrive getting bought. Me getting fired from Staples was the other one. Okay. I got it. Dead serious. Because I still was fighting. I was like, no, I can figure this out. Even though I knew it was wrong. Right. And they had to be the ones to tell me, no, John, you're not right for this. Right. And it was devastating and all that other stuff, but, but it was liberating because it was like, yeah, you're right. I don't belong in corporate America. What the fuck am I trying to kid myself about here? Let me answer the question, I think, because, you know, when those earth shattering moments were forced on you, whether it was your, your partner breaking up with you or losing that job.

And you said, at the time I was devastated, but then it was liberating. Why was it liberating? It was liberating because those things were wrong. So, you know, sometimes we ask ourselves questions that are far too big to really come up with reasonable answers. I'm miserable in my job, but I'm a golden handcuffs man in my family. I can't leave it because I need the revenue, but I don't know if I want to be a salesperson. What should I do? Man, these are like Moses level questions. Bring it down, Rand. Bring it down. You don't have to make crazy changes to make significant pivots in your life. First, ask yourself a series of questions about your current state of mind and state of play. Instead of wondering, should I leave my job or change careers?

First, am I working in an environment that celebrates the best of me? That's a very straightforward question. Most people can answer quickly. That is not a career question. That's a job question. Are my gifts being celebrated in this current job? Number one. Number two, am I working for a winner? And you can define winner any way you want as far as I'm concerned. Are you working for a winner? And finally, am I surrounding myself professionally and personally with other winners? When people are unhappy, they rarely say yes to those three answers. And when you say no quickly, my gifts are not being celebrated. I'm not working for a winner. And I've got people around me that aren't winners. Those are easier changes to make than let me rip off the life band-aid and quit my job and move to the mountains with my family.

You don't have to be that dramatic to make those changes. And sometimes, change it. What's that expression? And I don't even like him because I can't stand him. What's that guy? Cheeseburger in Paradise? What's that guy's name? Oh, Jimmy Buffett. I can't stand Jimmy Buffett. But he has this great line. Changes in altitude. Attitude. Attitude. And that is so right. Change the environment and watch your perspective change and watch your excitement change. Most people are unhappy with things that are right in front of them. And they think the answer is something a mile away. No. The stuff that's bugging you is the stuff right here. Maybe it was the lousy girlfriend. And maybe it's just a lousy job.

Sometimes, it's nothing more than taking the same career, new job that seems to fix these problems. It's funny because I was just having this. Mike Boggs begging to get on my lap. So he's good. Good. Yeah, bring me. But I was having this conversation with this woman. And I don't want to name her or the company. But she's kind of at this job. And she's just like, you know, I'm top of the class. I'm doing good things. And I got some opportunity here. But it's just like what I'm selling is just not exciting to me. Right? And so this other thing, what do you think about this job, John? I was like, I know that company. And I know that company is on fire. And she's kind of going through there interviewing her.

And she's like, but what if I don't get a response back? And now I'm stuck with where I am. I go, you just need to redefine what you're passionate about. Because she's like, I'm not passionate about what I'm selling. And I always say, look, find your passion or find something else to do. And if you don't believe in what you're doing, go find something else to do because you'll never be successful at it. But reshaping what that passion is, right? So hers was, I don't hurt what she kept telling me was, I don't love what I'm selling. Well, but she gave me an example of somebody that she brought, like some rep of hers who was struggling and she worked with them. And all of a sudden that rep is one of the top.

And she was really, really excited when she was telling me, I go, you just need to reshape your definition of passion and what drives you. It might not be what you're selling, but getting that kid to that level, if you can then focus on that, then you can have a great career at your existing position. And she was like, I never really thought of it that way because I always had this perception that if I didn't really love what I was pushing out there, that I couldn't be successful doing it. When I was, I'm sorry. Yeah. No, no. I totally agree with you on passion. I think that's good advice. But I also don't think, you don't have to hold your standards or I don't have to hold my standards to finding the destiny of my life.

I mean, I take a lot of enjoyment out of realizing how insignificant I am. Oh, totally. And I don't, I'm not, so I don't need to have this big like goal and I'm not going to be Dr. Martin Luther King. Right. So, so, so that takes the pressure down a little bit. But, but, but, but you know what? Think back to the great, great jobs, vacations, friends, moments of your life. They're rarely interesting, interesting from a third party's view. My, my, my best job growing up, I worked in a warehouse at a place called Service Merchandise, which no one under the age. I know, I know. You have to get the track that came, you waited for it. Yeah. If I were to describe in a post-digital age what this, how you bought products in this store, you would be like, you got to be kidding me.

But I worked in this massive warehouse beneath this big store where I had to fulfill orders and just find the order that was ordered and put it on a conveyor belt. So, but I got to like move pallets around and move little, you know, little, the little cars, the electric cars in the, in the warehouse. I hung out with guys a lot older than me. I partied. We listened to music. It was like, I think I made 12 an hour and this is in the eighties, which is like a million dollars an hour. So I was, I mean, I mean, you know, I had a little bit of jingle jangle in my pocket. I got off at five o'clock on Fridays. I had enough money to buy a six pack of beer and fill up my tank and hang with my girlfriend.

And I don't know, I was pretty fucking happy. Yeah. Was I passionate about working at a warehouse? No. Was I passionate about being a 19 year old? And with that freedom and excitement that comes at 19, you better believe I was. So you don't have to be passionate about like every step you take in life. That's a lot to ask. Be true to yourself though. I mean, things that we're good at, we're putting us for a reason. And if things, usually when people are unhappy, it's because they're not applying their gifts well. Well, let's go, let's go back. Cause I wrote that down. Gifts being celebrated. Like, how do you know what your gifts are though? Like, let's talk about your twenties, right? Like, I think I, I think I know what my gifts are now.

I think I may be. No, I think most people do if they get real with themselves. Gifts are, I mean, I don't mean you throw a fastball 95 miles an hour. I mean, what are the gifts I have? Um, uh, I, I have a great sense of humor. Yep. That's a gift. Yep. I'm curious as hell. That's a gift. Yep. Um, it makes me happy when people I care about are happy. That's a gift. Yep. I mean, you know, it doesn't take long to figure out the things that really make you John Barrows, who he is. And I don't care if you're 20, 30 or a hundred, you know, what makes you, you. The question is, are you living a life that's celebrating that? Or are you living a life that's not letting you enjoy what you're great at? And if that's the case, of course you're going to be miserable because you're, you're going to be a round hole in a square peg.

How much do you, like, how much of this is overlap with values? Like your core values of, cause I, I believe strongly that I, I thankfully early in my career, somebody suggested I read Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Oh, that's every, everyone listening. Everyone listening. It's a book you have to read. I don't care what your pursuits are. I've read it multiple times when I was young. Love that book. And, and I, it's been a while, so maybe you can remind me, but isn't there something in there about defining what your core values are? Yeah. Right. And I think. I don't think he calls it that, but yeah, it's, oh boy. It's, it's the idea that here's, here's my issue with some of it. Yeah. Yes.

Of course you want to allow your core values with what you do, but I don't think people need to be reminded what their values are. People have them. I mean, you know what they are. You, you, your visceral reaction to things you think is just or, or, or not just. Well, but this is, but this is my point though, with, with what, what you're good at. Right. I think a lot of people inherently might understand. Yeah. Your reaction helps you understand what your values are, but I do think there's something about writing something down about what true, what do I value? Right. Winston Churchill once said a life worth living is a life worth recording. Yeah. The writing down of it. Oh my goodness, that is an extraordinarily critical element to this.

And I, and I probably should have been said much earlier. I, and you know this, John, I've been a journal writer since I was seven, eight. I have journals that go back literally 45 years. I've always written down things. 90% of it's gobbledygook, but I like to record. Hunter S. Thompson-esque. Yeah. Or worse. But, but I, I do, I do, the, the power of when we write, it's called the written, it's called commitment. It's Dr. Cialdini talks about in his book. When we, when you say something, when you think it, it does not lock into any action. When you say it, 25% chance, write it down, 50% chance. Remember what decision means. Decision in Latin means to cut off from. That's what a decision is. Really?

Yeah. It's the elimination of choices. Decisions is not choosing something. A decision is eliminating all other possibilities, leaving you with the only alternative, but to act. Interesting. That's what a decision is. All right, y'all. This conversation is electric. Growing a business while you're growing a family is really hard work. And both of these guys have extensive experience in that realm. Retirement and what it actually means today is a huge conversation. And I talk about this with people that are my age all the time, because it's a real concern. How do we work towards a point where we can work because we want to, but not because we have to? This conversation really pushes the focus from doing less, which is how retirement is typically perceived, to doing what we want.

Let's face it. Why we do what we do matters to us. Putting the focus there can really impact how you feel about the role you have and the value that you deliver, not just to your prospects, but to yourself as well. Okay, here's a bit about what's popping at JBSales lately. We need to hear from you. Your stories are what drives our content and the value that we bring to the sales community. So send me your sales wins at james at jbarrows.com to be featured on next week's episode of Make It Happen Mondays. Today, I'm giving a huge shout out to James Auer of Shopventory. Four months ago, James reached out to me as a server at a restaurant wanting to join the SaaS sales space. After joining JBSales and meeting with our friends at PreHired, James has recently been promoted to account executive in just four short months.

Way to go, James. Keep going and keep growing. For what it's worth to you, we have built a great search function inside of JBSales On Demand that will allow you to be specific about the skills that you look to develop. Want to get better at video? Type in video and consume only the content that helps you improve your skills using video in your sales cycle. Need better cold calling practices? Have no fear. Search cold calling and watch over 15 videos that will improve your cold calling skills. Subscribe today and become the well-rounded sales professional that you were always meant to be. Join us at ondemand.jbarrows.com. Let's rejoin Jeff and John for this crazy helpful conversation about growth.

So do you suggest people go through that exercise of writing down what they think their gifts are like you explained to help understand that? I think that's an amazingly powerful exercise. And don't just make the list of, well, I guess it's not what I'm good at. That's a different kind of list. I said gifts. Gifts are not actions. This is what, this is the special sauce that makes you, you. So it's not about, I have a gift and I can run a mile under four minutes. That's sure. It's a gift. That's a small gift. Right. You know, what makes you laugh? You know, what makes you angry? Yep. Your passions are there. They're, they're right in there. That's somebody else made that point. Cause I was struggling trying to explain to somebody, like, how do you really define your core values?

Cause I got 12 personal guidelines to success and I've written them down. And it was from the, it's very powerful. And I'm actually, I'm going on Instagram now and I'm actually posting those one by one and talking about them a little bit now and creating a series around it. Because I think that for me, and thankfully it was something that I, I got some direction from early, but somebody else phrases a different way. It's like, what, what do you react negatively to is actually a good way to help you frame what your actual values are. So if somebody, you know, screws you over or whatever it is, or if somebody lies or those type of things and you have a reaction, a negative reaction to that visceral reaction, well, then that's a value of yours.

You value truth. You value transparency. You value those things. The next question is what do you do with that in that passion journey? And so it's actually this simple question that comes out. I, when, when, when someone lies to me, it makes me all these things. I'm super angry. It's a completely core value. Good. So then what do I do with that? What you do with it is don't work with people who lie to you. Like clearly you don't like it. And if you are working in a job or you're with a partner or you're in a situation or a life, a life stage where you're surrounded by something that is antithetical to your core value, that's the change you make. Don't worry about where I live and what my career is.

Get out of the environment. That's making you miserable. That's always the first step. Yeah. Yeah. And the one I've struggled with a lot is the, that environment you talk about surrounding yourself, right? So the three things that you outlined and the last one was surrounding yourself with other people that lift you up. Right. I've always struggled with that a little bit. And I think there's a perception reality on this one. It's like, that doesn't necessarily mean you all have to be like go-getters and hardcore and all that other stuff, right? It's, it's people again, who, who positive energy, in my opinion, who like, they might not be the most motivated person on the planet, but if they have positive energy and they lift you up as opposed to like bring drama into your life or any, like I've cut drama out of my life a thousand percent.

Like if you bring drama into my life, literally go fuck yourself. Like I will kick you out of my house. It's so fast. It'll make your head spin. I don't care who you are. Right. And so, but like, look, I got a bunch of really good friends who aren't the most motivated dudes out there, aren't the, you know, but they're high school friends and I hang out with them all the time. And, and people, you know, I, if you hear like the Gary V's the world and all these, like cut those, cut these fucking people out. You're the best, you are what you surround yourself with the top five people that you surround yourself with. And I'm like, the top five people that I surround myself are pretty cool cats, but they're not super successful.

They're not like driven and any of that shit. I think you guys are saying the same thing. Cause I agree with that. I do think you want to surround yourself with the best. It is that third element of, are you surrounding yourself with people that are, you know, but, but it doesn't have to lift you up in the sense that I'm an, you know, you figure out your passions, you know, you figure out those core values. You start to align with, okay, what in my life is not supporting those values. Look, you don't have to surround yourself with the same value people with the same value system you have. You just have to surround yourself with people that are equally passionate about what they're doing. So it doesn't matter if like, that doesn't mean, okay, well, I'm a go getter, ambitious guy.

I need to surround myself with five hard charging masters of the universe. I would argue that would suck. I would rat. I personally, I don't have job requirement descriptions for my friends. Yeah. I have plenty of, I, one of my closest friends who, who, who I just actually spoke to last weekend. Um, I went to college with, uh, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's, he's had so many jobs. Fireman, volleyball coach, currently a carpenter. Yeah. It's what you're not going to meet a cooler, more fascinating in genuine, plugged in connected dude. Yeah. And, um, could I live his lifestyle? Not a million years. I wouldn't want to do any of those things. That's hilarious. I mean, my God. Um, but, but, but, but it's not that, oh, I wish I was that or, or he, you think he wants to be a sales trainer?

No way. Why are we such good friends? We're good friends because we're true to ourselves and we, we are fanning the flames of the passions that celebrate our uniqueness. And so therefore I'm connected with all things, Jeff, he's connected with all things, David. Wouldn't you know that because we share enough other common things, he's a perfect guy to have in my rowboat because he's living his passionate connected life. So I think Gary Vee and yourself, I mean, we're all saying the same things yet. Cut people out, not because maybe they're not doing the same thing. You are cut them out. If they're not being, if they are reluctant or maybe incapable of feeling better because they just, they just can't, or they don't want to, maybe you don't want to have a lot of room while you're making changes anyway with those folks.

And maybe when you land on solid footing, you know, maybe you go back to those things, but the friends like me, I've got friends from junior high, elementary, high school, college, like you, multiple jobs. You know what they all have in common? They're all a bunch of happy nut jobs like I am. And no, we're not all in sales. Yeah. I mean, I think mine is, you know, the, I don't necessarily have a bunch of happy nut job friends. I know they're all nut jobs. There's no question about it. They're not all happy all the time. Yeah. Well, and happiness, I think comes and goes, but I think they're, they're good people. You know, they're, they're, they're genuinely good people. And, and to me, I have this, you know, I don't know, gifts, whatever you've been given.

Like one of mine is I usually am pretty good at reading somebody's like the, the darkness or the lightness of their soul in the sense that I can have a conversation with you. And after, you know, 15, 20 minutes, I can be like, there's, there's some, and when I say darkness and lightness of your soul, I mean, my definition of darkness and lightness of your soul. So, so I'm going to put that in perspective here, but there are some people where I'm just like, you're just, I don't know whether you're not a good person fundamentally, but there's something off there and I can't put my finger on it. So I'm uncomfortable with it and I'm not curious to go deeper anymore to figure out what that is because I'm too old at this point to, to learn.

I've, I've learned too much going down those rabbit holes. I look for the light. I look for, I mean, and look, we talk about, you know, how, how certain things have opened up your perspective on a lot of stuff like, you know, drugs and those types of things. I mean, mushrooms are one of my favorite drugs because I legitimately feel like I'm in the matrix when I'm doing mushrooms and I can feel energy. Like I can be in a room in a house and you could be in one office. You could be in a totally separate room with other people. Somebody else could be in another room and I can hear everything that you do. And I can feel the, the warmth vibe of, of energy or the negative suck of, of whatever in that moment.

And it, to me, going back to the universe stuff, like it's a, it's a, I don't know whether it's a gift or not to be able to feel that, but it, but it's, it's been pretty helpful in my career and my life as far as the people I'm surrounded with. Describing being pers, pers, pers, pers, what's the word? Perspective? Yeah. Why am I saying that funny? Is that the right word? Perspective? I think so. We're not even stoned. You're perceptive. Oh my God. Perceptive. Yeah. You're perceptive. The being perceptive, uh, it definitely is a gift. Definitely is a gift. And, and, and what, that would be a perfect example of something to think about is like, okay, well, is my ability to be perceptive of others?

Is that being celebrated with what I'm doing right now? Am I celebrating that uniqueness of myself? And if the answer to that is yes, that's good. If the answer is no. Yeah. Because if that's a unique gift of yours, clearly it is. You feel better. You feel more genuine and present when you're probably touching into your gifts. You know, my, my oldest son's a guitarist. Uh, he's going off to music school because that's what he's, because that's what makes him happy. And he is the calmest, most connected, most genuine when he's playing music. And when he's not playing music, it's not as smooth. It's not as, it's more effort. It's, it's less enjoyment. Um, where does it take him? How the hell should I know?

Where does anything take any of us? But if, if, if he's already figured out a gift, well, why would, what a dad would I be if I didn't help him celebrate it? And, and actually let's, let's talk about that. Like how have you, cause I had struggled with that too, with like Charlotte, like, you know, letting her find her path, giving her direction, right? They're going to find their own path with or without you. Of course. Of course. You can't do any of that. The idea that, that we have as parents, that we can somehow steer this ship is laughable as our parents steering, steering our ships, which didn't really happen. So how much nature nurture? Cause I always, I love this debate as far as nature nurture, right?

Because how much of it is, is nature? It sounds like you think it's way more than nurture. Um, but there is influence that you can give as, as somebody guiding somebody else who's never seen certain things. Totally differently. I don't look at it as influence at all. I, I've never looked at that way as a parent. Um, now, you know, check in with me in 20 years, see how the kids did. I don't know. Maybe I'm talking shit. I probably am. But, but I want to, I thought my, I've always think my role as a parent is to create the environment so they can feel safe and heard so that they, whatever. So when they go through the myriad of mistakes and calamities and dramas that are part and parcel to growing up, particularly when you get to that teenage years, um, giving them space and safety and, and, and, and, and on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, how much of that can I eat up for them so that they can be free to just be neck deep in the drama of high school and that neck deep in the drama of, um, uh, uh, we don't have dinner tonight.

So, so, or, or, or, or I don't feel safe at home. So how can I listen better? How can I hear it? How can I hear their perspectives? They'll get my perspective without me telling them they'll see me. So parents don't have to talk to parents, their, their, uh, how'd you put it? Um, values. I don't have to preach my kids, my values. They live next, they live 12 feet from my bedroom. They know my values. They've been in the house the whole time. They know what dad likes and what he doesn't like. They know what mom likes, what he doesn't like. So I don't have to do long speeches about the right way to behave. Right. I would rather, um, um, give as little speeches as possible and let them talk their way through what they're figuring out.

Like, I don't know. I mean, no, I mean, I think that, well, and it's, I agree. And I agree with that. That's what, well, I mean, my goal is, and I, it's kind of similar is, is to create that environment where regardless she feels, she feels comfortable enough to come to me and, and ask me anything, talk to me about anything, whatever it is. That's what I'm trying to, and then whatever she wants to do with that. And whenever she wants to come and have those conversations, I just want her to feel comfortable having those conversations with us. That's right. Our children learn from, and just like all people, we learn from watching the behavior of those we admire. So if your children look up to you as all children do, they're going to learn by what you do, not by what you tell them.

Just like you learned by your mom and dad, by what they did and not what they told you. But I think that's all, and it kind of circles back, right? Because if you're being true to celebrating your own gifts, but then you're creating a, a picture for your children to have the same confidence that your children feel like, you know what, mom and dad do it by their rules. Look how freaking happy they are. And maybe they don't do it the same way my other friends' parents do it, but they're really happy and I like living here and I feel good about myself and you know what? I want to be an ex or I want to try, what, what makes me happy? Well, music makes me happy. Well, then that's what you're going to do.

You're going to play music. I mean, how hard is that? Why is that a hard decision? That seems like an easy decision. Yeah. No kidding. Parents make those hard decisions, but he already decided. It's like, it's like, well, he didn't, he, did he decide to be a musician? God decided he was going to be a musician. It wasn't him or me. That was the gifts he got. And when the universe is witness to your participation in what the universe has already created, you know who doesn't work hard? You know what doesn't have drama? Nature. Nature doesn't work hard. Very easy. What doesn't work hard are things that are unnatural. Those things don't work very well. And you know it in your own life when you're pushing up a rope.

See, and that's the depressing thing I think about. Stop and be patient because the universe rewards easiness, not hardness. I think that's the, the, the challenge I have with higher education too, is that going back to what you're supposed to do, like if, if we had here in the States, if we had free college university, you know how many people would actually follow what their gifts were versus doing something to pay the bills and then living a life of misery because they had to give their gift up. I mean, that to me is, is a sad state of America is our capitalistic system. 75% of every dollar spent comes out of a consumer's pocket. The entire country we live in is beyond dependent. It's vital that we grow up, buy an expensive home, work our asses off and spend more than we make.

The entire process demands it. So everything around us is there to remind you of what to do. So when you start to row your oars in a new direction, there's a lot of forces to tell you you're wrong. You're crazy or worse. You're not being mature. You're not being, um, you're not being responsible. Where would we be right now as a people without John Lennon? And where will we be as a people without Gandhi? And where will we be as a people without, you know, Jonas Salk? And, and, and I'll list you at 10,000 other people that didn't play by the rules. Right. And how lucky are we that they didn't? Yeah. I mean, I think progress only comes from breaking the rules. Progress only comes from creativity and, and not, you know, going outside of the norm.

Karl Marx said it, right? Look at, look at the source. Always look at the source. When you have an idea that might not be your own, like you need to do X, Y, Z to be a good responsible person. If that idea did not come from you, but you believe it, ask yourself as Marx did, where did it come from? Who gains from me believing that? Yeah. Those are interesting questions. That's a very deep question. On a beautiful Friday morning on the vineyard with this warm puppy. Um, last one, what was your, in your career, what do you think was your biggest inflection point where you had the hardest time thinking through that next stage or where you were in the weirdest spot, I guess, like, cause that's where I'm at.

Like where, which part were you the weirdest spot where you just didn't know what was next? And, and I mean, I think I've already heard your answer, but I'd like to, I'd like to, I'd like to, I think I've heard your answer of what you did, but I'd like to understand in your, from your perspective, like where was that? I love the question and it's hard to pick one, but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll give one. I think it's at the heart of what you're asking. Um, so, and coincidentally, it's the last sales job I had before I started my business. So this is like late nineties. Uh, I was a director of sales for a company where I was in a position for a very well-known company. And you can look at my LinkedIn profile.

Uh, and I was in a position where, uh, the dot bomb blew up. If you all, if you're a little bit older listening, you'll remember the, you know, we've had these market races before and one of them, when that kind of fell apart in the.com era and all these companies, you know, kind of crumbled. A lot of those companies were partners and customers of ours, of my company I worked for. One of these particular partners, we had a revenue share agreement with, and we had to make good on, uh, a contract we had where we were going to be doing this revenue share and an executive in the finance department in a group meeting, uh, said, we're going to slow roll the payment because the chances were overwhelming that this company was going to go bankrupt shortly.

And the smart business decision for our shareholders were to hold off on payment because they're probably going under. Um, and you know, I'd seen a lot of stuff at that, this company that I didn't like. And frankly, things are worse than this. Yeah. I don't know why that bugged me. So yeah. And, and ultimately I know why now I didn't know then. Being a business owner. Yeah. It bugs me. It bugs me now because I'm a small business owner now. Exactly. And I know how desperate getting paid is to keep, to pay my employees. People who own small businesses like you and I have no idea how close to the edge we run these companies at the smallest disruption in cashflow can be cataclysmic to us. Um, uh, that's why that those PPP loans and what was going on with, with the economy.

I mean, we were in a lot of people like you and I, and I mean, hundreds of thousands of people like you and I were really like, Oh my God. Um, so, but even before I had my business, seeing big, bad David, a Goliath rather treat David in this fashion, um, bothered me and I quit. And I mean, I had just gotten married really. I mean, I called my, my, my wife, but I didn't really talk about it that long now to put it in context. I'm not the bravest guy in the world. I was planning my exit anyway, to start this business, but I was a year away from that. Yeah. And I said, I just can't wear this company's logo on my sweaters or on my laptop bag anymore. Yeah. So I didn't know what the result was going to be of that other than drama and fear.

Yeah. But to your point, decisions mean to cut off from, I decided I didn't want to work and live a life like that. I believe that I can be a wealthy person without betraying my values. I believe that, and so that's been a requirement of mine that I got wealthy, my way, not wealthy other ways. So I didn't know what was going to happen, but just like you described, you know, the saddest and best day of your life is when your partner broke up with you. He didn't know it at the time. Nope. You found was a sense of the void of something that was making you miserable was no longer there. And I felt the same experience. You have to trust your soul, to use your words, your soul's reaction to things it doesn't like.

You have to trust it. You have to trust when your soul is going, I hate this. When you go, all right, dude, we're going to make you happy. I'm out. And when your happy soul gets rewarded, oh my God, the doors that the universe will open for you. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I have a very similar mentality as far as being wealthy my way, right? Like I don't, I don't, I've always struggled with, do you, you know, if you look at society's definition of success in a lot of ways, and the people who are quote unquote, uber successful, like the Larry Ellisons of the world, the, you know, like those type of people, right? Like, I always, I always, I'm like, do you have to be a raging asshole to get to the top?

Right. And it's always depressed me. Richard Branson, Richard Branson, Mark Benioff, like the, you know, Dwayne Johnson, there's like three or four examples that I can point to and say, those are good people. And they, they did it their way. They did it, in my opinion, the right way, as opposed to stepping on people and shitting on people. And, you know, the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world and that type of thing who are just like, ew. So, but I've always kind of said, like, I, like, I, I've had this inherent, I got to do it my way or else I can't, I can't be happy with this. It's not yours if you don't do it your way. Right. But, you know, people listening, you make the point, you know, not everybody's wired the same way, you know, making it your way doesn't mean how much money you make.

You know, we say wealth, but wealth is, we all know what it feels like to feel wealthy. It has nothing to do with money. Wealth always is the same thing. Wealthy people don't have more money than everybody else. Wealthy people have more time than everybody else. So if you want time, you can get it. If you're true to your nature. If you take other people's roadmaps as your own, I don't know. Good luck to you. Yeah. Yeah. I tell Charlotte when she was a little girl, you know, she's, you know, the question always comes up. What do you want to be when you grow up type of thing? I said, the number one answer to that question. And I still do, by the way, I will be the first guy on Virgin Atlantic, like I think it's 300 grand.

I totally want to be on that ship. Nice. But my answer to that question always is happy. What do you want to be when you grow up? Happy. That's the answer. Right. And whatever that means to you, first, your situation, that's, that's the answer to that question. It's not doctor, lawyer, any of that shit. Cause who the fuck knows when you're that? It's kind of almost a stupid question to ask a kid, right? Even, even somebody like me, what do you want to be with? I don't know. I still don't know. I just know I want to be happy doing it. Right. And so that's kind of the, where my mentality goes with this. And don't let happiness be a destination. No, no, no, no. Happiness is all the time. Well, that's the journey right now.

There's nothing, I don't feel anything other than happiness right now. And it will probably fade, but, but as long as it's there, I want to enjoy it. Comes and goes. I mean, look, the COVID pandemic and so much of what's going on politically here in the country and a lot of places around the world, you know, these are watershed generational things. Yeah. And when these things happen, like a meteor hitting the earth and if that's how the ice stage started or who knows, but when these kinds of dramatic impacts happen, they accelerate processes that were already kind of going. So if you went into COVID feeling good, you're probably feeling pretty jacked right now. And if you wanted to COVID feeling frustrated, you're probably feeling very frustrated right now.

And that I think is true in business. I think it's true in people and in relationships. I think we're experiencing it everywhere. So the, this isn't the first conversation I've had over the last few months with people I really respect and like that are looking at crossroads and looking at pivots because what do you expect a pandemic to do other than have you reevaluate your choices? I know I have, um, let that remind you of that 12 year old or nine year old self, you know, that got happy at things that now you look as silly, but, but what's that great line? I know I'm going to butcher it. It's one of my favorite lines from George Bernard Shaw. People, people don't stop playing games because they get old.

Yeah. People get old because they stop playing games. Stop playing games. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Is that genius or what? Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm, I am 14 and I will always be 14. That is, that is who I am in, in here. And, um, I love stoking it and I love staying curious about it. And I love being engaged that way. The moment that you talk about your friends, like, um, you know, you know, maybe not as ambitious or whatever. Look, there's one thing I I've learned as I'm getting in my fifties, I do have friends that have turned really old, really fast. Yeah. And the definition I figured out of old is this, when you encounter something you don't understand, if your initial reaction is to ridicule, you're old.

And that's what old people do. They ridicule the things they don't get. I don't understand Tik TOK and I don't understand NFTs. And I'm pretty sure I don't understand cryptocurrency. I don't either, but I don't, I don't insult those things and I don't make fun of them or ridicule them as a result of my own ignorance. I just don't understand them. And if you can accept your own ignorance, you can stay young forever. But once you add judgment to ignorance, you get old real quick. That's I love that. And I agree. Cause I I've stopped, I've stopped like, you know, judging a lot of the dump stuff that I would, you know, if I really sat down and said, that's stupid, but there's a lot, you know, I'll use the clubhouse for an example.

But like, I think clubhouse is like, I don't like it. I think it's dumb. I, I, well, not dumb. I just, I don't understand how it's different than the radio shows, but that doesn't make it dumb. It just, I don't understand it. Well, that's, and that's it. So it's like, I'm, I'm curious about it, but I'm not going to ridicule for somebody for, for going through and what that platform is. Cause apparently a people, a ton of people get a ton of value out of it. So who am I to judge that those people are stupid at what they're doing? Right. Like that it's obviously an avenue for people to have conversations and, and connect with people. So what the fuck's wrong with that? Nothing. And, and, and, and exactly, exactly.

And, and, um, staying curious is so big. Well, how do you ridicule things? So one more thing, cause it just brought up a question. How do you not, how do you deal with stuff that you think is fundamentally wrong? So for instance, and, and let's not go down context is, I think, well, so like, you know, and this is, this goes back to the judgment thing. And you said something to me a long time ago, you have it. And it's just this little thing. And you've, you've identified that little, that little, uh, elephant guy, right. Of yours. That's like the elephant. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we all have it and, and, and, and, and quantum and, and naming it and labeling it is actually a powerful thing to say, no, it's okay, but it's not me.

Right. But what about things that fundamentally conflict with your values? And let's use an example on my side. I don't know about yours, but like QAnon, for instance, I don't understand shit about QAnon, but I think, uh, and, and I've read enough about it that I think it's absolutely horrible. So how does that from a judgment standpoint compared to things you don't know? Cause I don't understand QAnon. Like, how would you reconcile that? So it's hard to, right. Um, I have no curiosity about QAnon. So, uh, it's not something that I've investigated to any degree of any level. Cause I don't, I am not curious about it. Um, look at, there are good and bad forces, right? And I don't know if that necessarily means that one is judgmental to identify the obvious.

Okay. Like, I don't, I don't like to think that I, I don't live in the real world. Ultimately, when I encounter things that are truly antithetical to my being, uh, I, I, I, I wind up instantly recognizing I'm allergic to it and have nothing to do with it. That would be an example of one of those things. I just, it has no purchase in my day, week or year. I, I, it gives, I give no attention to it to be friendly. I don't know if that's good advice or bad advice, but I, it's so antithetical to Jeff Hoffman that I have no interest to have it anywhere near me. So if I see a reference in my Twitter feed, I continue to scroll. Well, and that's kind of my, and this is a whole nother conversation, but that's kind of where I, I get bummed out a little bit because, you know, we are fractioning as a society, as far as these, you know, like your weird world over there, I want nothing to do with it.

I don't understand it and I don't care, but we like that it's, it's going further this way. Right. As far as people trying, being curious, wanting to understand, but we, there's been a wall that's put up, you know, relatively recently where a lot of people don't give a shit about that other side of the equation and just live their happy life and, and, and are continuously surrounding themselves with like-minded people that, that, that don't conflict with theirs. Like that's the whole algorithm on Facebook. You only see what you see. Right. So I, I think there's like, there's a challenge. I, I, from a big picture standpoint, I, I, I worry about that in a lot of ways. I think that contextually, right.

And I mean, don't confuse, I try not to confuse things that are micro with macro. Like I try not to confuse an injustice that I think is episodic and make that my today and make that my reality. You know, that being said, big problems usually require simple solutions and enough people to agree to make that simple solution. You know, it's tough. I mean, for me personally, I mean, you know, this, I'm not on social, right? No, I, we, I have a, I have a lot of followers, but no surprise. I don't, that's not my, my, my voice. That's posting. Yeah. Rarely. I, it's just not for me, for reasons that you said, I, I prefer to take people as they are when I encounter them in a real world, not a digital world.

I don't, the digital world when it comes to relationships doesn't interest me very much. It doesn't make me curious. So I, again, when things don't make me curious and when I'm, when I'm not interested, I tend to be dismissive. Yeah. So, so I have a feeling I'm a little happier than a lot of my friends because I'm not on social. I, I almost guarantee it. I'm a happier person. I've never entered into a debate with a stranger on social, not even once. Yeah. I've never done that. I, I, I wouldn't know how. And, but I know people who do good friends of mine who do. And I mean, I guess they claim that they're getting something out of it, but they certainly look pretty miserable while they're doing it.

So I got off of Facebook and I couldn't be happier. Like, cause it was nothing but a negative, you know, engagement with me. And so, you know, I do, there is something to that. And, and I think it goes back to your, you know, the patience versus quick, right? In, in the sense of be patient with people in a lot of ways. And, and, and with people and patient with things, that is how you do it. You get frustrated, be frustrated at a thing, not the person, but be frustrated with the counter, not the person behind the counter. Yeah. And, and, and, and I, the more you actually meet people with no preconditions, the more you realize how similar we are actually are and how, and why this, the, all the macro things that are pushing on us.

And here's some news, you know, the, the, the, the calamities, the ailments that plague us, they're not new, man. Yeah, no shit. They're not new. Yeah. Well, that's why like every, all these kids are freaking out about this, this, you know, what happened and everything like that. And like you said, like 2000 was fucking brutal. 2007 was fucking brutal. Right. I mean, there, there was, and I mean, go back even further. There's always been a, oh my God. And we've come out of it. All right. Well, I mean, yeah, or we won't. I mean, like, but yeah, I, I, I get you. So I, I see my little, uh, low battery sign. Yep. Yep. No, we're way over anyways. And I, I don't know how interesting this will be for our listeners, but they're a neat bunch.

They might like it. They'll love to see Remy. I know that. I look, I know, I know a lot of my listeners and your listeners are on their own journeys. Yes. And, and so I, my hope is, is by kind of sharing some of mine out loud, uh, that they'll pick up on stuff, some stuff that they can think about that'll help them on theirs. You certainly gave me a gift. I mean, you got me to talk about some stuff. I don't get to talk about much and share it and learn from you. And I heard two stories of yours. I had not heard before. That's a gift. And, um, it got me kind of my, my wheel spinning from my morning walk with my dog. So I'm going to have some stuff that you want to, I couldn't, I did not expect us talking about anything other than closing, but I'm glad we did.

I appreciate the topic change. No, thank you. And that's kind of this morning I was sitting there in the shower and I'm like, you know what? Like, yeah, fucking Jeff. And I can talk about, that's gross. Well, yeah, sorry. But, but, but, but, you know, I was thinking about, I'm like, yeah, Jeff and I could talk tactics all day long. That's, that's kind of the, okay, cool. But I, I, I, I, I enjoy these conversations way more than I do the, the tactical stuff. Cause I think you and I, you know, we put it out there from a training standpoint and that is what it is. But I think these conversations are more important. If you only know John from watching his, his video podcast and reading his blog, what you I've known John a long, long time.

And what you're hearing is him, like your authenticity in the analog to digital age has been effortless. It's something that I try to strive to be because it's hard. And so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled. We, we, we talked about this. Awesome, brother. Awesome, man. All right. Thanks, buddy. Later. Peace. All right, y'all, let's recap some stuff from the latter part of that episode for you. Narrowing down your core values and the true meaning of friendship and how to identify them is a huge aspect of success. They say that you're the five friends that you spend the most time with. If that's true, then how you remove stress and anxiety and drama and other negativity from your life will help you stay on a growth course in your professional world as well.

Doing what's expected of you just to do it isn't really a great path either. And I loved what Jeff said about nature, not working hard. It becomes harder when we go against the things that are natural for us. So we have to find something we love to invest our time in. That was a real eye-opener for me. Some closing notes for you. Follow us on the gram at JB sales training, all one word for daily sales tips and value and share this episode with your network so that your network can also benefit from this content as well. Join us on our live weekly webinars. Find them at JBarrows.com in the blog and events section. And finally, we're looking forward to guiding you on this path to sales success.

The time that you spend investing in yourself is what will set you aside from the other reps in your space, constantly asking your prospects for 15 minutes or 30 minutes of their time. Developing a strong routine, a great foundation, and knowing the ins and outs of your sales strategy front to back is what will help you become more than you ever dreamed. Effective sales strategies and techniques await you at ondemand.JBarrows.com. Join us today and we'll see you next week, everyone. Until then, make it happen.