243: Suneera Madhani on Leaving Your Legacy and Not Being a Typical CEO

Hey, everybody. So this podcast is with Sunera Madani, and she is incredible. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, I actually had her on back in 2019. I actually did some work for them. This was back when they were called Fat Merchant, and they were only pretty small team. I think they're about 20 reps and doing a few million through their processing system. Now, holy smokes, a few years later, they're doing, I think, over $9 billion in payments running through their system. They're a billion-dollar valuation. She did 40 under 40. She's got her own CEO podcast for women. It's absolutely bananas. She's the CEO and founder of Stacks. And we focused a lot on the growth and what has happened over the past couple of years and what she's learned, but also on her podcast of how she's helping women entrepreneurship and CEOs really break the mold and show them how they actually can have everything.

You don't have to sacrifice one or the other. She's got a real good system here for keeping it all under control and doing incredible things here. So highly recommend listening to this one. Highly recommend following her and engaging with her on social because she's doing some great stuff. Hope you like it. What's popping, y'all? It's your man, James. Say What Sales Buckley, and this is your weekly Make It Happen Monday's episode with your host, John Barrows. Huge shout out to our partners, Sales Loft, Proposify, Chili Piper, Gong, Zoom Info, Vidyard, and Salesforce Sales Cloud. These companies are great people to work with that truly care about elevating the sales profession. So be sure you check them out when you're building your sales stack.

Let's give it to John to intro someone I just know who you guys are going to love. Good afternoon, everybody. It's John Barrows. Make It Happen Monday. Hopefully you had a fantastic weekend. I am so excited to have this guest on right now. First of all, we talked back in 2019 when she was just kind of getting started. I had trained her team. They were in a cool little office overlooking Orlando and now 100... How many? 10 billion? 100 billion? How much shit's going through your platform right now, Sunara? 12 billion this year. 12 billion. So, Sunara Madahi, how are you? She's the founder and CEO of Fat Merchant, now Stacks by Fat Merchant. How are you, Sunara? I'm doing excellent. I am so excited to be here today, too.

I remember just from our journey together, I would say over these last couple of years, 2019 does not seem... It wasn't that long ago. It was 24 months ago. It feels like it was like 10 years ago. It does feel like... Because in startup... It's the startup life. Startup life is dog years. We literally say it's dog years. So I'm actually... I'm really fucking old. I'm running a business now for 8 years, but it's been almost 50 is what it feels like. It's... I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I look back on it when I started about... You know, off on my own 10 years ago. And I was like, all right, I just want to kind of do my own thing here. You have a similar story as I do, too. Like, you never thought about building a company.

You were talking about solving problems, right? And holy shit, you solved a problem and it exploded, right? My sin... You know, I was trying to solve a problem, but I was trying to build a little lifestyle for myself, too. And same thing, opportunity came up. And COVID, I think, was as bad as it is at a macro standpoint, you know, there are some blessings that if you look at it the right way, that hopefully it'll come out stronger and put us in a good position here. So I want to start just by real quick, just running through some stuff so people understand who we're having a conversation with here. So 2020, Fortune 40 under 40. 2021, Forbes, America's Best Startups. Top 100 Podcast with the CEO School Podcast, right?

That's what it's called? Yeah, it's called CEO School. CEO School. So if you're not following that right now, please get on that. And just all the way around, just kicking some ass here, Cynara. So talk to us a little bit about what am I missing of that? Like, what else has transpired here over the past couple of years for you? A million things, I would say. But so we are a payment technology company first. So just a little bit about the company. It used to be called Fat Merchant. So you probably heard me back in 2019 refer to the company as Fat Merchant. We went through a giant rebrand. It's now called Stacks. It's still there's like a little buy Fat Merchant on the bottom. We're going through the full rebrand, which I'm happy to actually talk about on the show later on how we went through that journey.

But it's called Stacks. So we're a payment tech company. We do integrated payments for businesses. We have 25,000 customers on the direct side of our platform. So think of us, our competitors are Square and Stripe. But what we do differently is omni-channel payments. So Square is fantastic. It's single-threaded in one solution for point of sale or for your mobile. Stripe is amazing, but it's also single-threaded in its solution set. It's just for developers. It's just API. There wasn't a singular platform that was bridging all the which ways that a business needed to accept payments. And that was the first thesis when I launched the business in 2014 is that businesses were going to need to take payments in a multitude of ways in person, online, via invoicing, shopping cart, all of it mobile.

And so 2020 proved exactly that. So our growth has been just fucking off the charts. It's actually been triple-digit growth, over 100% organic growth, year over year, over year for seven fucking years straight, John. That is bananas. Yeah. It has been. It has been. So that's a direct side of the business. 25,000 customers there. In 2019, it was a big pivotal year for us that year because what we were doing... And this is a sales podcast. I'm not going to talk tech and API, but it was really novel. And then we had software companies that were like, hey, we need to do integrated payments in our software. And so we had a new thesis was that all software companies are payment companies. They just don't know it yet.

And so we white-labeled our solutions for software companies. And that's where this evolution of really stacks came about, was we want to be the payment stack. So you have your CRM stack, your marketing stack, your sales stack. We're the payment stack for the business on the direct side, but also for the software companies that need to embed it for their customers. Because all payment flow at some point isn't going to be direct. It's going to be through the app that you're using. It's going to be through the software that you're using. It's going to be seamless. Just like you get into your Uber, you never think about payments. That's integrated payments. So that's what Stacks does. And yeah, we're doing 12 billion in payments through our rails this year.

It is such a blessing. It is crazy. Personally, it's also been a big update over the last two years. Pandemic happened. I have two little girls. So John and I, you know, my girls love... Mila and Anna, right? Mila and Anna, yes. Yeah, no, Mila named Anna from any parents out there frozen. That is a real story. So when we told Mila she was going to be a big sister, she's like, oh, like Elsa. And she's like, I'm going to name my sister, Anna. And it happened. Nice. That's how much you love your first child. And then the second child... Oh, yeah. Let them do it. I was named by my sister. My sister named me. So... So, yeah. So it's been a big... It's been a big couple of years and lots of great, you know, success on the business side.

But people growth, you know, that's been hard and crazy. We're 200 team members now. I remember you came in for our training. We were like, it was like 50 people. We're a legit company at 10 million in AR. Now we're about 100 million. So doing the thing. The journey is incredible. And I've been following... You know, I've obviously been paying attention ever since we got together and been extremely impressed. But one of the things I wanted to hone in on with all the stuff that you're doing here is the work you are doing with the CEO school. And it's not just the podcast. And could you talk a little bit about what the CEO school is? Because there is a very specific mission here for this that I really...

I really want to do anything I can to help. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. So my journey... I mean, now this is people... You know, it's been a decade of entrepreneurship. And there have been a lot of learnings in this journey and getting to this, you know, raise 150 million in venture capital, less than I think 1% of venture capital goes to minorities. By the way, for those that can't see me, I am a 5-foot brown Pakistani woman, 34 years old, mom of 2. I am not your typical CEO. CEO. And all the growth, everything that's taken place. I always say, I didn't go to CEO school. Yet, I'm in the position that I am today. I am so fortunate to be able to still run my company as a founder at the level of success that we've had.

And this concept of not going to CEO school, I don't want that... That really held me back. Like, I think as just in general, I think women, we don't see other women succeed. And I read this statistic exactly two years ago. And I was really inspired in the pandemic to do something about this is that less than 2% of female founders ever break a million in revenue, less than 2%. It's appalling. How's that compared to the average? Do you know? I don't have the exact... I'm trying to find the exact statistic for men, but it's like eight times less. Like, it's ridiculous on the disparity. Unfortunately, that doesn't surprise me. And it doesn't surprise. And I've really dug into why that statistic exists, right?

And I'm not anything novel. I didn't grow up in a rich family. I didn't go to a fancy school. I didn't have... Like, I was literally 26 years old when I started this company with no money in my bank account. And I didn't have the experience to go run a tech company. I didn't even know how to build software. I just knew that there had to be this disruptive service. I was just in the industry wanting to solve a problem, just like you, John, right? But I didn't go to CEO school. And I feel like all of these learnings... I think knowledge from generation to generation has been shared in what I call... It's the good old boys club, right? And I think women are not rising up for so many different reasons.

One, we just don't win because we're not even dreaming about winning. Like, I didn't even know that I could go build a million-dollar company, let alone a billion-dollar company that I built, right? I didn't know that. And so, I think, one, it's important for us to see other women succeed in different aspects to say, hey, that can be my story too. Something else that I feel is that we don't take risks, right? So, we're so risk-averse as just our species. We're protectors. We're nurturers. We're not going to be the one to take the risk. And so, being risk-averse, that comes down to resources, money, and people. And we don't invest in that because we're so afraid to even take a bet on ourselves, let alone actually investing in our first few employees or investing into growth.

And then lastly, I think a big proponent of the lack of why I think this statistic also exists is just the lack of resources and knowledge sharing. And so, we're not being pulled up. We're being left out of the room because we don't have a seat at the table. So, for all of these reasons, I never found a seat at the table. And so, I built my own. And that's the table where all women are welcome. And I really want to encourage... I've had a lot of success in business, but I didn't want just Stacks to be my only impact and live and die at Stacks. I mean, we're going to do incredible things. And we've done incredible things for my investors and for our team and for all of that. But I'm like, what is going to be my impact and my legacy?

And for me, it was I want to help empower women to start and scale their companies and to dream bigger and provide the resources and tools that they need that I wish that I had, the resources that I had, the things that I needed. I made so many mistakes, like giving away too much equity in the beginning. Right? I have a billion-dollar company. I don't have a billion dollars in my bank account. Right? So, so many learnings. And so, that is CEO school. And in the pandemic, when I had that air quote, extra time, no commute, I was sharing my journey on Instagram. And this is something I've been doing for a couple of years now. And I have a pretty large following on Instagram. You can check me out at Sanera Madani.

And I was doing all these Instagram lives during the pandemic. And I was bringing entrepreneurs together. And there's only so much you can share on a caption, whatever. It's like, you know, 400 something characters. I needed a way to go deeper in my content. And so, that's where CEO school, the podcast was launched. And now it's a top 100 podcast in entrepreneurship. And I also have a, literally a CEO school. So, we have a membership. It's really amazing. And where I mentor in there, I bring in expert guests, like the biggest, baddest girl bosses, like Sophia Amoroso. And like, just all women. So, sorry, Johns. I know there's a space for just women. And it's built by women for women. And we're changing the statistic every single day.

Absolutely love that. That's it. And I want to dive in on, because I'd love, I want to hear kind of how you've seen things change over the past couple of years. But one of the things to highlight, you know, the issue that, that I think we're all facing, and what we need to do about it is, you know, one of the, probably my favorite, one of my favorite, but also most disheartening comments that came to me recently, it was one of my new hires, Leslie, who she's doing fantastic. I brought her on back in January. But she came from a company that was very male dominated. And she was one of the only women in her, on her team, or even in her region type of thing. And she was a manager. And she came here.

And she literally, I think about two months ago, she goes, John, I think I found, I finally re-engineered or reverse engineered what my problems were here because of this environment. She's like, I always felt like in my previous environment, I was the mom. I was, because I just thought that was, I just thought it was normal. You know what I mean? I thought it was normal for me to be taking notes during the meetings. I thought it was normal for me to have to go, you know, do these things that the guys weren't. I thought it was normal just because that's what I actually grew up in. And she's like, here, we're an extremely flat organization, right? I mean, I literally, I still take out the trash type of stuff, right?

And she's like, I don't have to ask for permission. I don't have to worry about taking a risk because there's a support structure here that actually encourages it as opposed to what I was in, which was really depressing what I wanted to do, even though I didn't know it at the time because I was just so used to it. Do you think that's part of it is that it's just so indoctrinated into women based on how they're treated, um, in the workforce that they just kind of accept things for truths and them sticking their head up is, is, is not even worth it in their opinion. Are you seeing that? I'd love to hear some of the feedback of, of why the women come to you, uh, for this school. And then we can talk about kind of, um, how things have changed over the past couple of years specifically for women in work.

Oh my God. I have so much to say to Leslie. I feel her. I feel her. And it's her story. Unfortunately is one that we, we hear very common. It's because we're not taken seriously, John. It's the truth. We're not taken, we're not, we're not taken seriously. We're brushed over. And at times we are timid and it's not our fault that we're timid. We have a voice. We just haven't been allowed to use it and no one's ever going to give us permission. And so I think part of, um, something that, you know, there's like, I have like a four P principle, um, that, you know, CEO school is like, you know, great. There's like all these things about business that we're going to learn how to scale. So there's, you know, profits.

People want to go to profits directly first. That's not the first place we're going to go. Um, then there's process people like, okay, I need the process. It's not the first place we're going to go. Uh, people is a huge component of it. It's a huge foundation, but that's not the first place we're going to go. The base of all the piece is actually power. That is what we need as women first. It's that we have been trained, uh, subconsciously our entire lives. Like since we're little girls, I love that you have a book for children that I want to be in sales when I grow up. I told you that the day that I met you, I was pregnant with my second daughter, Anna, that was pregnant when we, when we, when you first sent me that book.

And it does mean a lot to me because I, you know, as even if you think about the psychology of how, what we watch, we're princesses. Like we were never like, if you look at old school movies every Friday, actually we have pizza movie night and we're watching like the, they're at the best movies, like the two thousands, like, or like the nineties movies, sorry. Like Mrs. Doubtfire and like little rascals and little giants. Like, so we're watching like family kid movies every Friday. Um, and Sal actually, um, my co-founder, my brother, he comes over and he picks the movie and that girl's like, what are we going to watch this week? And, and I love these movies, but in every single movie, like the dad goes to work and he's wearing a suit in the briefcase and it's like, okay, bye honey.

And like the mom has like the four kids on her shoulder, like on her hip. And just as a little girl, we've just always been trained to beat, to have that role. And there's nothing wrong with that role. Something that I fundamentally, um, what I realized is that we've fallen into as women in this supposed to, and I think this is probably true for many listeners out here. This is what we're supposed to do. Many salespeople who are so good at their jobs who are like, Oh, well, the next step for me is to become a manager or why aren't you're just so good at what you do. You don't, you're not supposed to do anything, but we fall on this supposed to track of, we're supposed to go to school. We're supposed to get this degree.

We're supposed to get the corporate job. We're supposed to move up the ladder. And as women, we're supposed to have children and we're supposed to be the homemakers while our husbands and our partners are supposed to do whatever the supposed to is whatever the fuck we want to do. It's not the supposed to of society has trained us in our roles. And I think when that clicked for me a couple of years ago was while I was scaling the company, I was in my, you know, I like hit 30. I knew having a family was really important to me and my husband and my partner. Like it was really, really important to me. And I didn't want to, I've only seen that you had to choose. And I was like, no, I don't have to choose.

I deserve to have it all. And I have worked so hard to show that I can have it all. And I've had to prove harder to my board and I've had to prove hard and we shouldn't have to prove harder. But the moral of the story that I'm going with to, um, for, for those listening that might feel in this supposed to position or feel like their voice hasn't been heard is that you deserve the success, whatever you define success as don't let other people define your success and the power and having the confidence in yourself is so important for you to even allow yourself to say, this is what I want. Cause sometimes we don't even have the power to tell ourselves, this is what I want so that we can use our voices.

We can take risks. We can, uh, interrupt and raise our hand and say, Hey, I was, I was speaking, right. Hey, let me finish my thought here. And that's what happens to women all day long. Um, is that we're just kind of, you know, looked over. Um, and I've seen even in my organization, right. And I, this is something that we see in many organizations. You probably have seen us guys negotiate their salaries. Women don't, when we give it, we give a job offer out literally nine out of 10 times. It's a girl on the other side. It's like, thank you so much. We're so grateful. We're so kind. And the guy on the other side is like, Hey, no, uh, I need 15% more. And it's just natural to men to negotiate.

And it's not natural for women to negotiate. So little things like that, I think have held us back, but you know, uh, 2021, the world's changing and we are building our own tables and we have a voice here. And I think that we're going to, I think there's a lot of change that needs to happen, but I'm excited to be at the forefront of this and to be inspiring thousands of women daily and helping more women, you know, either scale up in leadership. Cause that statistic 37% of, um, leadership is, is women's in C-suite there. We're not there either. So we have to break a lot of the statistics, but it takes you, it takes me, it takes all of us. And yeah, we're going to make the world a better place.

It's better when we're all diverse and different and come with different perspectives. I mean, the stats on that are undeniable as far as a homogeneous environment versus a heterogeneous environment. I mean, teams with heterogeneous environments far out succeed homogeneous ones. And, you know, it's funny you bring it up. Uh, you know what the title of my new keynote that I'm working on is? What is? Stop doing what you're supposed to do. Stop it. We're at the same time. I swear to God. And I wrote a book because I wrote a blog post a few years back on it. And, uh, and it was because I, you know, I was going through the motions in a lot of different ways, but I, but exactly what you said. So for instance, um, I was married, I, I, I gotten, um, I met my first girlfriend, well, not my first girlfriend, but I met a girlfriend in college, freshman year, and I was with her for seven years and I brought her to Boston and I did all this stuff.

And I was her everything in the sense of father figure, but you know, all these different things. Cause she had a really tough childhood and she didn't have any money either. And I knew it was wrong, right? I knew our relationship wasn't right, but I, but what are you supposed to do after you're with somebody for seven years, you're supposed to get engaged. And then what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to buy a house and then you're supposed to have some kids and then you're supposed to do this and thank God. So we got engaged and I was, and she was my fiance and I was planning the wedding. And even though I knew deep in my heart that it was the wrong thing to do, I was doing what I was supposed to do.

And she, thank God, broke it off with me. And it was one of those things where for a couple of days I was devastated. Oh my God, you know, cause again, I'm supposed to be devastated after somebody breaks up with you seven years and your fiance walks away from you. Right. But literally two days later, I woke up. And when I tell you the weight that had been lifted off of my shoulders, it was, it was, it was noticeable. I could feel it. And then fast forward, get a, you know, start my company, sell it to Staples. And I was, I knew I wasn't right for Staples. I knew I wasn't, I mean, you know, me, both of us are not, we're unemployable at this point. Right. I've always been somewhat unemployable and, and I knew it was wrong, but I kept fighting because you're supposed to, well, you're supposed to get a job.

You're supposed to get promoted. You're supposed to do this. You're supposed to do that. And they fired me. And it was the best thing that could have ever happened to me because it woke me up. And those two moments got me to wake up both business, business and personal fuck doing what I'm supposed to do. Let me do what I want to do. And as long as you come with good intentions and strong values and those types of things. Right. Cause I do, you know, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent on the Gary Vee bandwagon of, you know, just figure out what you love to do most and do that. And you'll make, you know, you'll make your, I don't know, dude. Like if I, that's why I don't like the, the, the, to kids.

I don't like the advice of follow your passion. I think that's a false narrative. Cause I don't think when you're 20 and whatever you don't, I don't think you know what you're really passionate about. Um, I say, find your passion and then follow it. Right. So try a bunch of shit that's, and then whichever one you're like, Ooh, this one feels right. Then go all in on that. But you know, the supposed to do is, is a wake up call for us, right. For, for, for women, I think for people going through the motions of, of their job. And I think COVID helped with a lot of that because it reframed a lot of people's mindset. And that's what I wanted to transition to here with you, which is how, how has, how have you seen COVID work from home, flex work policy, all that stuff.

Has it helped many of the women that you're talking with, or has it become an additional burden because now they're home, you know, maybe with the kids running around and they haven't figured out how to manage that. And their managers are, you know, having different expectations with them. How do, how have you seen this shift impact women in business and entrepreneurship? I have two perspectives on this. And I would say that all the statistics actually show, and there's, there's real statistics on this, that women are being held back because of the pandemic. We've still had to carry the burden. We have the kids at home homeschooling and doing your job. I mean, and, and I will say that it's not, I mean, the guys have definitely stepped up.

So I will say that there is also this shift taking place that, you know, we're, we were both stuck in the house. So it's not just one person where, you know, I think there's good and bad to it. I still think at the end of the day, women still carry the emotional burden of the family, even though I have the world's greatest partner. I literally have the greatest. We've been, Faisal and I've been together for 15 years. He is like a better partner than I am to him. Like he's amazing. But at the same time, there's this shit that he doesn't think about that just mom thinks about. I just don't know how to explain it. It's just the stuff. So it's all this extra things of that. We carry that burden for the house.

Um, and there are women that don't have that support from their partners. And so homeschooling does, did add like a huge disadvantage there. I will say also, um, there were areas where, um, you know, because of having childcare and things like that, women are always held back where the guy gets to go follow his dream or go take that risk and chance. And, you know, so just statistically we were, we were held back and we are being held back in the pandemic. However, the women that I'm seeing, so I also am running in a lot of entrepreneurial circles. I'm like, you know, the community that we've created, there's 150,000 women with ambitious women. And so I will say that the women that I'm seeing, um, I think it's that shift of, oh shit, this is a good time to start my side hustle.

This is a great time for me to go experiment with something else. And my partner now is like here to support. So, um, I do think that I've seen a really positive shift in women to also, um, be empowered, have the time to reflect, have the time. I think we all have had, this is what the pandemic did for, for many of us to say, what is actually important. And when we really had to choose our relationships, we had to choose where we went, we had to choose what we did with our time. Um, we were really intentional about it. So I think the pandemic overall was just better for mankind. We just became, we just like, we're learned about what we wanted as, as human beings. And I think that's why you're seeing, you know, the, you know, the great resignation, what everyone's calling it, everyone's like shifting their roles or deciding what's important.

And, um, and so I do think that it has been positive from that lens of personal reflection, but it still has been a setback just because we've had to carry that burden. So now it's like, what do we do with this? How do we manage our time? It's not going to go away. Um, all the extra, and it's not just about women that have kids or don't have kids. This is kids versus not kids thing. Um, but yeah, it's been that, that, that burden of the family. And I'm going to be selfish on this one. Um, it's, it is real, you know, my wife is incredible. She's not an entrepreneur herself and all that other stuff. And, you know, our daughter, we have, we have one daughter, Charlotte, and look, Charlotte, when she's not busy or she's not with friends or she's not at school, like if she's just sitting around and, you know, watching TV or, or by herself, I'm like, okay, cool.

Yeah. Uh, you know, I'll be, you know, I'll be ready in an hour. I'll come hang out. I'll do so. I don't feel the burden of like, Oh my God, I have to be around her. I have to support, you know what I like? I, I, I do, but I don't. Whereas my wife, I can absolutely see the struggle of her guilt factor. It's the mom guilt of, Oh, I'm not, I'm not in some of the schools, you know, events. I'm looking at the school going, fuck the school, you know, whatever we pay them enough money. They should be able to handle that shit themselves. And I don't need any more friends right now. Cause I got a business to run where I was on her end. She's like, Oh yeah, God, you know, I'm not there. And, and the stress is there, is there a, how do you coach moms on how to deal with the, that part of the emotional that guys can disassociate with it?

Cause it's not that I don't love my daughter. Obvious. I love my daughter. I would die for my daughter, you know, right now, but I also don't feel the, the, the burden. If you will, dad guilt is less than the mom guilt is way less. I mean, it's there. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I'm cold. And that's like, I mean, obviously, but the dad guilt is so much less than the mom guilt. And I'm trying to, and I'm, and I've almost kind of said, I don't know how to, that's the one thing I don't know how to help with. I can help with a lot of other stuff. I can take, I can help with allowing us both to have equal time to do our jobs. I can clean up, I can do all these different things to be supportive.

But what I can't do is I can't find a way to help that guilt subside. So how do you help CEO moms specifically? And I know you said, this is not just a mom, like a parent thing, but I want to hone in on that because at a certain point, you know, look, there's plenty of people who are choosing not to have kids, but at a certain point, the majority of people, you know, younger, older, whatever, are going to end up having a family like that. So how do you coach them through that? It's such a great question. And this is something that I get asked all the time, actually. So, um, I actually did an episode. It's actually episode, I'm pulling it up 106 with Dr. Tracy Allaway. She's literally a neuroscientist.

She's an award-winning psychologist and TEDx speaker. And she studied like the female brain. Okay. So first I would tell the moms listening or the women listening that are, if you're feeling that guilt, it's very normal. Like we are, we're by designed that literally she explained to me on the show, the amount of neurons that we have sensory neurons to these things are like, I don't know, like 27 times that of a man, like from a frontal cortex and like how our brains operate. So the guilt that you're feeling is normal, just because in our primitive, like what we're naturally supposed to do is to think about all of these things and to nurture our kids and to be the protector and to be the, you know, so by design, first and foremost, so the guilt that you're feeling is normal.

You're not crazy for feeling it. You're not a bad person for wanting to have a career or wanting to go do things for yourself and self-care and all of that. And like putting your children aside, that guilt is normal. So that's the first thing that I will say. But what I will say is that we have to learn to also accept the fact that our children are going to be like, we're still going to do a great job. And then they're going to be gone one day and you still have to pour into yourself before to pour into your children. So I think that what's really important is actually the quality time that you get to spend with the children, like with your children. Like I feel like I spend incredible amounts of time with my kids.

I'm not with them 24 seven, but I spend very quality time with them, very engaged time with them. And you can still have it all. Like you can still prioritize what's important to you and keep that your number one. It never has to be your number two, but you have to also feed your mind and soul and yourself in order for you to feed others and to be at your best self for your family. And what I find so often of when this happens is I think for the first five years of, it's usually for around like when your kids are younger too. So when you're a new mom and then you have, you know, over the, you know, my kids are literally under five years old. And so you have a ton of mom guilt then, especially because they're literally physically dependent on you too.

So it's much different when they're, when they're older. But what I find is that then women stay home and then they don't focus on their careers and like, I'll get back to work. And what happens is getting back to work is 10 times harder. And you never actually end up, you're always behind or you you're, you're five years, five years out of the workforce. Imagine this last five years of how much technology just changed, right? As employers, that's a big gap for you to go fill. And so we end up falling behind on the spectrum, which ends up putting us behind on our life goals and everything else. All right, y'all. So Nira's experience scaling her business is pretty damn inspiring. Years of growth, all stemming from what I'd refer to as an obvious passion for what she does for her product and her team.

What an unbelievable journey. And this comment around not going to CEO school is really interesting as well. I'm loving this conversation. Reach out to us and tell us how our content has impacted your sales growth, mentality, upward mobility, or results. We want to hear more from our audience. That's you. While you're at it, why don't you tell us what you want to hear more of? You can hit me directly at james at jbarrows.com. And who knows, I may just be shouting out your name on the next Make It Happen Mondays podcast. Today, we want to give a huge shout out to our friends at Bot Keeper. They recently signed up at JB Sales membership and are well on their way to boosting results, hitting those goals for Q4.

Welcome to the family, Bot Keeper. We got your back. You too can become a member of the new JB Sales at joinjbsales.com to gain access to all of our trainings, tips, strategies, as well as our webinars, templates, scorecards. And now we offer live weekly Q&A sessions that you can attend to perform at your best potential every day. For a dollar a day, yes, a dollar a day, $365 a year, you can become the sales professional that you and every other sales rep out there deserves to be. That URL again, joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to John and Sunira. For those that are feeling mom guilt, it's real. I feel mom guilt all the time. But what I do know at the end of the day is that I'm doing this, my why is for my kids.

It is for my girls. And so if I'm able to still prioritize, I'm not saying that you should prioritize your work, leave that for, right? If picking up your kids is super important, like what are, define the moments that are your, like, I call them $10 tasks versus $10,000 tasks. Like what are your $10,000 tasks, right? For me making dinner is like a $10,000 task with my family. I'll never outsource that. Like I'm a huge proponent of like, I have this principle of like, do delegate, delete. It's like a workshop that I do. And you can still like spend the quality time. So look at your life and do a time audit and say, where am I spending time? And what you're actually going to find is that you're spending bullshit time on everything else besides your actual, like besides the kids.

So get rid of all the other bullshit. Say no to the, like, say no to the things that don't actually move the needle for you or not part of like your key bucket. Delegate the stuff that you can delegate out your $10 tasks, delegate out the laundry, delegate out your groceries. Those things don't cost you anything besides time, which is why you're feeling mom guilt in the first place. So prioritize the time with your family, have quality time. And then over the course of the week, like something that people always ask me is like, how do you find like what's work-life balance as a mom? I'm running two companies, CEO school completely like, well, I do a ton for the community. Um, I have two little kids.

I'm a fantastic daughter as well. My mom literally lives with me right now. Um, how, how do you balance it all? What's work? What's about, there's no such thing as work-life balance ladies, all men too, only work-life integration. At the end of the week, I take a look at it and say, okay, today I had a great day at stacks. I'm literally wearing my business development shirt. I'm like on sales right now. I'm like meeting partners. I just got off the red eye from like a conference. I was at SAS with my team. Um, I may have a great, I may have a great stacks day, but then I need to balance the week out to make sure I still have a great kids day. And I still have to make sure I have a great CEO school day.

And so it's not always exactly perfect all day long, but in a given course of the week, I have good integration across all three. Like my kids are coming to the office literally after this podcast, two 30 schools out and they're coming to the office and we're about to go run a 5k with my entire team. We're going to have a sea of 80 people running across downtown Orlando right now. And my kids are going to, I'm going to be racing with my kids. Like they're going to be in the stroller and I'm going to be pushing them with my team. And that's how we integrate. And you can do it too. You deserve to have it all. I think the first thing is feeling worthy of that. And then removing all else that doesn't fill you or your business or yourself cut the bullshit.

And that's for everybody listening. You are spending wasteless time on things that are not adding value to your life right now. I actually have a little, what I call that is energy management, not time management. And I'll send you this graph that I put together, which is energy and an achievement and achievement towards goals or priorities. Right? So basically you want to write down these four buckets. One is it gives you energy and it helps you achieve whatever your priorities and targets are that you want to do as much as you possibly can. That means you love what you're doing and it's helping you achieve what you want to achieve. Then there's the bucket of, um, it takes energy away from you, but it's important for your goals.

So that's stuff you compartmentalize. Like I have to, you know, make some cold calls in some ways I have to, you know, close, you know, send some time doing that stuff, even though I don't like doing it, it gets me to where I need to go. But instead of just doing it, I'm compartmentalizing it. So I basically do all the shit that I don't like, but it's important in a very structured way. Then there's the, I like it. Uh, it, it, um, it gives me energy, but, um, it doesn't help me achieve my goals. Those are the fun things that's like, you know, be, you know, just the, the, the side, not even the side hustles, but you know, being home, hanging out, playing basketball, those types of things, whatever, like that's healthy.

You need those offshoots, but then there's the stuff. And this is where are too many people, like you just said, spend too much time, which is it sucks energy away from you and it does not align with your goals and it does not help you get anywhere that shit. If you just put that list together and you, and you circle each one that is sucks energy away and doesn't help you achieve your goals. The easiest thing you can do in the short term is literally fuck off to all that stuff. Like today, drop it or $10 it and outsource it to somebody else to do it. Yeah. It's the same thing. I call it $10 tasks versus $1,000 tasks. Sometimes they're $10,000 tasks. I'll throw in, but now my time's getting more valuable, John.

Trust me. Right. Cause it, and it gets more and time is, you know, the most valuable asset always has been always valuable. And so, you know, and you also, because you talk about your three, you got a lot of kind of structural ways of thinking about things like your three bucket principle, right? Where, what are those three buckets and balancing them out throughout the weeks is that you pretty much described that, right? Yeah. That's how it starts. So I have this, we're actually really similar in our teachings actually is now that it's like, I hear Utah. I'm like, Oh, I call it the three bucket principle. Um, so my, the three bucket principle is very similar here. I think every quarter, I think that in my world, because of just business works in quarters.

And so I encourage all of us, like I think about life in quarters. So this next quarter, it's Q4 perfect timing, right? Q4. What are, and your buckets can change. Like seasons are different. Like we're allowed to be like, we're allowed to be multi-passionate. I don't know why people are like, why are we doing this? I'm allowed to be multi-passionate as a human. Okay. So your three buckets may evolve and change. So, but you shouldn't have more than that. So I believe in the rule of threes, like so hard, like I, you can't handle more than that on your plate. So what are your three buckets for this quarter? Let's say you're like, I want to hit a certain amount of like sales goals that are like part of it.

I want to do X at work. So work can be a bucket with this category. I want to take on a new hobby or start a podcast. Like, I don't know, like do something in this bucket. And then your third bucket, let's say, let's say it's like mental health. And you're like, I really like to do something here. Like my three buckets, they, my seasons have been pretty steady for the last two years. And it's been, it's been my family first. So it's like my bucket. And I always like to say I'm in the family. So me self-care is part of it. Cause I'm part of the family. So if I'm feeling them, I got to feel myself. So self and my family. And my, my second bucket is stacks. Like that's not going away. I have a really fast growing tech company.

It's my baby. And I want to see this all the way through to that billion dollar exit and, and beyond. And then my third bucket is CEO school. Cause it's now it's its own bucket. It takes, it takes, it's a community. It's an impact project. I've got a podcast to produce. I've got two shows a week. I've got showing up for lives and coaching. And so those are my three buckets that I have this season coming up now. Now that's it. Everything else that isn't, that is a no, that's it. So I've got my work bucket and there's, and then you can go into like what within that, what are your needle movers? So I call them needle movers. So what are like the big needle movers for the quarter and focusing on the needle movers are also important?

So you're not just aimlessly working towards like, so every quarter I'm like, okay, here are my three needle movers for CEO school. Here are my three needle movers at fat, I still call it fat merchant at stack. Right. Here's what's important for my family. I hope to take a vacation this quarter, whatever we're doing, having like your goals underneath that. So that's kind of the three bucket viewpoint. So whoever's listening, you know, similar to your buckets. I love that your buckets have energy associated with it because there's going to be things that you have to do that this part of the day to day. Um, but everything else is a no, it's a fuck off. That's what that is. I've gotten really good, um, over the past year or two of saying fuck off, like literally like, because I have the problem of, I always have a very opportunistic lens.

And so I look at something and I'm like, Oh, I, I could do that or I could do that or I could do that. But then I, I am very focused on what my priorities and my goals are. And, and, and now I'm gotten to the point where if it does not support what I'm trying to accomplish, I ain't doing it. I'm sorry. It, it, it, you might be a friend of mine. You might be a long-term client of mine, but if it does not align with, with what I'm trying to get accomplished for both my life, my business and my family all together, then fuck off. And, and that's what I wanted to ask you. I find a lot kinder. I just say, I say no. Also, it doesn't have to be no forever. Right. So it can be not right now or not right now.

And so there might be great opportunities that you say, you know, thank you for that opportunity. It's not, it's no right now, but it might be later. It's just not the right time. And so from a business standpoint, right. You know, the, the thing I liked you would, I think we had talked about this on the last podcast, right. I was following you on this where you talk a lot about treating your, your personal life, your, your relationship and your family like a business. Right. So going back to that work-life integration piece of this, you know, I think some people look at that and be like, Oh God, what a horrible family to live in as far as being, you know, cause if you think business, right.

It's like, Oh, we have these things that we have to do, but I think it's actually an extremely healthy thing to do. And, and I wanted to ask you like, how do you, and I forget, I'm sorry. What was your husband's name? Faisal. Faisal. How does, how do you and Faisal look at your, your, your goals together? Right. Because I think if you were to ask most couples saying, Hey, what are your goals as a family? What are your goals as, you know? Yeah. As a family, I don't think most of them would be able to tell you a very succinct, clear goal of what they're trying for. Right. They're both working their asses off. I guess they're going to have family that, you know, they could say, Oh, I want to make sure our daughter goes to college and stuff like that.

But no, no, no, no, no. Like where do you want to be in five years? Like that, that proverbial question. So how do you do that? I mean, A, talk about your, your application of business to personal. But that goal setting and, and how does that frame how you guys communicate and how you support each other? I love this question. And yeah, sometimes people can view it and be really turned off by that. And I don't mean business in a sense that like life is transactional. I just apply the same systems that I've learned in success in, you know, in business, which is all people stuff. I think people actually, business is done wrong. Like, I think business is as human as it comes when people are like, Oh, it's not personal.

It's business. No bullshit. It's personal. It's my business. It's the most personal thing that I have. Like it's the most personal thing. Like your job is who you are. Like this is part of our day to day. Like in maybe some European countries or other countries where we literally are just like, here's your job, job, you clock in, you clock out. And if you can compartmentalize that great, you shouldn't be working there. But it most, for most humans, your job, it's personal work is personal. And so what I mean by applying it to life is it's all about like you, like you said, goal setting. So my husband and I, we've been together since I came to my 21st birthday, like literally we've been together forever.

We built our lives together. He's also an entrepreneur. We have like combined four businesses right now. Like it is a lot of work that goes into us operate. And we view our like our life as in that structure. So time management is a huge component of how we view business in our personal lives of making sure that things are scheduled. So like something as basic, I'll show you, share with you how I apply business is we have a calendar for the family. Like Mila is five now. And then she just went to kindergarten. I don't know why kindergartners are so busy. Like I have to get on her, like she has piano and ballet and swim lessons. And it's just a lot. There's a lot to do. And we're also active parents.

We don't want to be, uh, you know, we want to be active parents. And so we divide and conquer everything. And so we have a schedule. And so things like my workouts are also in the schedule. I'm part of the family so that I can take my time and say, Hey, this is what I'm working out. This is when Faisal works out. He likes to do, uh, CrossFit and like other things that I don't like to do. So we have different things that are going on. Vacation, like all our scheduling is around is done on a system. So that's one component of it. I would say goal planning and financial planning is so important as a couple. I remember, um, like every single quarter we sit down and we review our finances and it's not about, I think some people have like viewing money wrong.

We could do an entire podcast next on like wealth. And I would love to do that. I think people view money in the wrong, just the wrong way. It's not about budgeting to say, where can I cut my $5 cup of coffee? Like you can sit there and cut all day long. Let's talk about wealth creation. Okay. And how can we invest? And even if we're, you're starting off young, like we were, we built our lives together with nothing in our bank accounts, but we did it. We micro-invested, we bought our first property. We did all these things without having much, but we were smart about goal-setting together. We sacrificed things when like, I was going to go start the company and he had the full-time job. And when, when, and, and he started his business while I had a full-time job, right?

And we had always had health insurance. And so every single quarter we go away, like we always do a family thing or just him and I will take some time and we'll revisit our goals and say, are we trending towards the goals that we outlined for the year? And that's business. You set your AOP, that's your annual operating plan. Okay. And then you meet quarterly with your board and you say, how are you doing? Annual operating plan. And we do that as a family. You know what else we have? We have values as a family. So there's things that we abide by that are like our family values and principles of like, this is how we're raising our girls. These are the things that we said were important. Like we're raising our kids in that way as well.

And it's always good. Like we fall off, like we're humans. We're not going to be perfect 24 seven. We err and we, you know, we're trying to be healthy and then we're not. And then we realized that we've drank way too much wine the last like three weeks, right? Like, and we're like, you know, we got to bring it back a bit. So you have to keep your checks and balances and that's life and things like delegating, right? Like one of the best decisions that we made, um, was to like bring in help, right? Like, and you can do it at any stage in your life, wherever you are. If you're listening to the show, look at the most like mundane tasks that you do at home, just delegate them out. Right. You know, it's as basic as starting with like your laundry.

Yep. Well, that's the whole four hour work week, right? That's where I learned that, which is the value of your time, right? And anybody out there can do this math real quick, figure out what's the number you want to make this year. What's the dollar figure you want to make 200, 300, $400,000, whatever that number is. Great. Now tell yourself how many hours a week do you need, do you want to work to be able to achieve that? And so therefore say it's, I don't know, 50 hours a week. Well now divide 50 hours into the, you know, the dollar figure. And now, you know, your hourly rate, right? And now anytime you can find something that does it for less than your hourly rate, you outsource it. And then you go focus your time on stuff that is either going to help make you money or fill the bucket of the stuff that you want to do and gives you energy, but might not be able to hit your goals.

Cause that's where you can find that flex. And so I've really, you know, simple things like your point, like when I was a kid, 22 years old, I used to iron my own shirts, right? Because I thought, oh, I was saving money and stuff like that. And I'm like, wait a minute, I'm sitting here for two hours. I suck at ironing. I'm probably going to ruin one of my shirts anyways, or I could spend a buck 50 and bring it to a professional and get those two hours back. So I can go actually sell something else, make some more money, spend some time with my friends or whatever it was just relax. Yeah. Exactly. Or just chill. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. I mean, I think that, um, we've gotten into this, such like a grind culture as well.

And I'm so ready to cancel a hustle culture. Like there's a balance and I've, I'm learning that now. Like I think eight years later of literally, I feel like I've been on John every single day for eight years. And this is what it takes to go build a billion dollar. You know, it you you're on for the last 10 years. You've been on every day. You've been on a plane, you've been traveling, you're training, you're building all the responsibilities fall on you. It's hard. Um, but you know, it's, it's, it's also important to pump the brakes, take care of yourself mentally. One last question on that. Cause this is the part I do struggle with. Uh, you're much younger than I am. Um, but, um, I do think there's a level, like I've reached that point where I'm like, you know what, certain things aren't important.

I don't need to be up until two o'clock in the morning. I don't need to work on the weekends right now, but I'm also 45 years old, a wife and a daughter and I'm, and I'm doing okay. You know what I mean? I've, I've reached a, a stage of my life where I'm not worried about the, you know, where the next paycheck's coming from and those types of things. So, you know, and I, in mental health and all that stuff has been highlighted where we are right now, but I also worry a little bit about this, Hey, cancel the whole hustle culture. And, and it might lead to, um, I don't want to say laziness for, but I do think we're in a world right now where people see the Instagram success and they think they can do that overnight because one person did a tweet that got them 8 million followers because they did a stupid video.

And now I can go make millions on YouTube. So what's the balance of where you and I are right now, accepting the fact that, you know what, but we've also been through the hustle. We've done the hustle. So we're talking about it in hindsight. How do you talk to a kid who's 25 years old? Who's like, I'm up right now. I'm like literally shaking my screen because don't let the internet fool you. Hard work is the shortcut. 100%. It also depends on where you want to go. Okay. And so I think that defining the first piece of it is defining what success looks like for you and being very real with yourself on what does success look like. It's not going to happen overnight. Um, and entrepreneurship is so sexy right now.

Like entrepreneurship is so sexy. And what Instagram doesn't show is there. It's not, it's not the reality. It's late night. It's hard work. It's failing again and again. And again, it's having your heart broken and it's having, it's all the legal, it's all the shit that you have to deal with to now get to the point where you and I are in our careers, but it did not come easy. When I talk about hustle, I want to clarify and I appreciate you saying this because I do worry about this next generation. The lack of hustle, the lack of drive. And I love Gen Z and I love like, and I love like, but I do see that sometimes it's, I do see people completely canceling the nine to five. Like, and I see that and that's going to affect our economy.

That's going to affect our, we want what's interesting to me, um, is the fact that we require companies to overnight us a product. Now, like it's in one day, it's too late. If it's not same day, that's a problem, but we also don't want to be the ones to put in the work to do that for our companies. Right. So as consumers, we've become so fucking demanding of companies, immediate responses. If like customer support has to be like right away, you need chat, you need this, you need that support. Shipping has to be literally magical. Like magically I should want your product and it needs to be a flawless customer. Drops it off. Right. That's our expectation as customers. Right. Yeah. Thanks. Uh, Jeff Bezos.

On the opposite, then all we see is like the workforce. Um, it's not, you know, is, is not supporting that hustle culture to get customers, the customer first. Like that's what our businesses were built on. Like the, because we, and we had to support that. And guess what? We had to hustle and our teams had to hustle to support what our customers growing needs were. And I am afraid of, I think there is that balance of when I say hustle, you still have to put in the work, but I do believe in working smart. And I think that's where things like, you know, automations, learning your craft, what you do, John is probably one of the most pivotal things that I think any company should, every company should be investing in is getting trainers like you so that their teams can do the job well the first time.

Right. So they're not talking to a bajillion customers that aren't the right fit. And so I think that there is a balance in, I do think we have to grind and you have to hustle. And if you want, if you want to be number one, that's what they, that's good. You're going to have to work for it. And if you're not doing it, someone else is going to eat your lunch. And that's what, and that's why we're still work the way that we do. Because as soon as I take, I say, I want to have the balance, but as soon as I'm going to take the gas off, right, you're going to take the gas off, there's the next company right behind that's going to say, make it happen Tuesdays. Exactly. Exactly. And I do same thing.

I'm going to bring him up again, because this is where I absolutely do agree with him, you know, with Gary Vee, when he talks about how, you know, look, it goes back to your point about the goals, like, what is your goal? And look, if you, and goal should be happiness, period, whatever success, it's your definition, right? And if you can make, you said there's certain people who just compartmentalize and they got their nine to five jobs or whatever, if you can do that and you are happy, like I have plenty of friends that make 60, $70,000 a year and they have a nice little house, they have a family, they go to home to their, you know, you know, partner every day with their kids and they are very happy in their life.

But if you strive to be number one, if you want to make $10 million, if you want to do all that others, that's where the, that's where the gap is. I think it's, it's, Oh, I want all that cool shit, but I'm, but I want my mental health. I want my, I don't want to hustle. I don't want to be yelled at. And I want it like all this other stuff. And it's like, okay, I'm not saying you have to give up on all that stuff. Mental health is the priority across the board for those, but you do have to sacrifice a little bit to be able to achieve that. Cause this isn't just a show up and hand it to me, which is, that's my fear right now. It's like, wait a minute. I did my six months as an SDR. When am I going to get promoted to an AEE?

And it's like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like just because you were here for six months and you did the job, that's why I can't stand merit raises and shit like that. It's like 3% a year. Why just because you've been here for a year or are you 3% better this year than you were last year? If you're 3% better this year than you were last year, I'll give you a bonus. You know what I mean? So I think that's the gap that I don't think enough people see. I agree. I know we could talk about this forever, but I have one more comment here for those that are listening on this. Be the best, right? I think that then you can save your time. Like, I don't care. We're like, you know, we have sales.

They're all women actually that are on top right now. I'm just proud of that. Okay. Um, they're awesome. So like, you know, all my trainers are women now, right? Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. So Sid is like, literally, she's like the most fantastic. I don't care where Sid is. I don't care if she's on vacation. I like, I don't care what she does, where she takes her calls from. Sid puts in the work. Sid is hustled. She's the best at what she does. And she's, she's, um, she's perfected her craft. And so I would say, stop worrying about like how long you've been there and you can get there. You can get there shortly, perfect your craft. And I would say that that's what outshines. And if you spend time on perfecting your craft and that is where I think leaders are born.

That's where I think success happens quicker is actually the people who perfect their craft, um, which takes like to perfect your craft. You have to do it over and over and over and over. Yeah. There's, there's, there's like the work cause you have to be able to fail. You have to track to, you have to do the work to put it in. And so I would say you're right. Assess your goals. And there is a balance. And you can also, what I'm trying to say on the hustle piece is I've also learning that I have to take care of my health and my body and my life and all of that. And so it's just making time during this crazy, it's going to happen. I'm not quitting. Like I'm not like, I'm going to keep going. Right.

So I'm addicted. Right. That's, that's the, that's the overachiever in us, the bar. We raised the bar before we get there. We're like already there. And then we raised the bar, but it's also being able to celebrate and say, Hey, you know what? I want to take a moment. I want to, you know, celebrate this achievement that we've had. It's also saying, you know what? I'm going to take 10 minutes of a break and go for a walk now and say, I'm going to go clear my mind. And so I can perform better at work. And so I think that those are areas that we can incorporate. And there's so much great resources around us too. And I do believe that if you're doing your job well, you don't have to work on the weekends.

It doesn't matter what job. Like I do think that if you can, if you can do the job, right. And we have our best performers who don't work on, like they don't need to work on the weekends because they're doing a great job and they're getting their work done and they're on top. And so it's a hustle. It's a different kind of hustle. It's working smart. I love it. Awesome. So now, like you said, I think we could keep talking for hours. I know. Let's, let's, let's save this stuff for the next one. Uh, round three. Right. Um, but look, um, talk to people. I mean, you got the CEO school, so where do they go to find out more information about stacks, about CEO school, about you? Yes. Perfect. We'll link everything in the show notes, hopefully, John.

Um, but you can just follow me online scenario Madani on Instagram or on LinkedIn. So you can find me both. It's S U N E E R A last name is Madani M A D H A N I. So find me on Instagram. And then I've linked both to CEO school, which is at CEO school at stacks payments. So follow us on Instagram, follow us on LinkedIn. Um, and then you can subscribe to definitely check out CEO school, the podcast. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, this is literally, uh, what we do. Uh, so follow along on iTunes and Spotify at CEO school. Absolutely love it. And, uh, look, I'm, I'm really looking forward to seeing you on, on that next stage, right next, maybe next time it'll be the a hundred billion, right?

You got a hundred billion going through the system, right? And we can talk about what that looks like. Cause, uh, you know, I'm a, I'm on a, you know, pseudo professional services growth plan that is much less on fire, but I've actually created a nice little platform on the, on the side that is, that is starting to explode too. So I don't think it's going to hit the billion mark, but it'll definitely, uh, I never knew. Right. Right. So awesome scenario. Well, thank you so much for coming back on. It's been an absolute pleasure and I love what you're doing over there. So congratulations on all the success that you've had and, and just, uh, just again, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Well, thank you for having me. This was so fun and I can't wait for round three. Absolutely. All right, everybody will look, hopefully you got as much value out of this conversation as I did. Um, got you to think a little bit differently. Look, if you're, if you're a guy out there, go out and do something to help level the playing field and write, bring other people up. If you're a woman out there, do everything you can to not just lean in, but stand up, uh, check out that CEO school, do the resources are out there and let's try to get better, uh, as a collective group here. And like I always say, even if you had a shitty day today, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause if you make somebody smile, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that.

So thank you all very much. And I'll see you on the other side. Let's make it happen. All right, y'all. That's a wrap. As always, we encourage you to become a JB sales member and gain access to the JB sales team. Our training, our courses, tips, webinars, and replays are all available for you at on demand.jbarrows.com. Follow us on Instagram for daily sales techniques and tactics at JB sales training, all one word, and we'll catch up with you on the gram. Have a great week, everybody get out there and serve those clients, catch up with those prospects. Be sure that you are asking the right questions, doing the right things and serving people to the best of your ability. Get out there and make somebody smile today.

It'll make your day and theirs. We'll see you next week when we bring you another stellar guest to help you sell better. Make it happen, everybody.