47: Objection Handling With David Priemer

all right good morning everybody this is a good afternoon i guess this is john barrows make it happen mondays and i'm super excited to be here with a guest um david uh david actually where do we meet first was it i forget was it inflowative or was it uh salesforce it was probably and i knew you at salesforce but met at inflowative hold on a second let me move this all right sorry say that again yeah i knew you from salesforce but met at inflowative okay perfect so anyways i wanted to introduce everybody to david he's actually in my space doing sales training and consulting as well um so competition is always relative i say but uh david hit my radar because he put together a a post on objection handling and i train objection handling but i train it uh more about the techniques and tactics and the uh the post that he wrote was super interesting because it was really about kind of the back end side of negotiations and really having understanding where i'm sorry the objection understanding where that objections coming from so that's what i wanted to hit on today but before we do that david i want to give everybody of the audience here a quick little background of uh where you're coming from and what you're up to these days yeah i mean look the quick story is i started my career as a research scientist and got into sales like most people uh do by accident the turn of the dot-com boom so i'm a big advocate of of grassroots sales education more people should be getting into sales on purpose in my opinion um but yeah started my career as a research scientist over 20 years ago ended up in sales at the turn of the dot-com boom and fell in love with this great profession um but tried to approach it as much as i could from that kind of scientific perspective but also harmonizing like the human element to it as well which was just really fascinating to me i'm just very curious person um done four startups uh the first three were acquired the last one's still kicking uh the third one was acquired by a company called salesforce and i ended up working there for five amazing years um and just got to experience what it's like to build sales machines you know from small all the way up to uh large scale so um i've decided now to live my passion for modern day sales education i've been writing for a long time and you know it's one of those things if you can turn the thing that you love to do most into your full-time job um you're you're cooking so um that's what i do now i train people on the art of modern selling i love it and and actually it's funny you bring that up as far as intersection right of of what you love and and what you're what you're good at have you ever heard of the phrase ikigai it's a japanese look look this up and for the people in the audience here look at it's it's i-k-i-g-a-i and it's a super fascinating uh japanese philosophy around how to search for meaning in life and it takes like what you love what you're good at what you what the world needs and does this intersection of of really where that sweet spot is and so you know people talk about the work-life balance which i think is kind of bullshit um this is actually more of talking about the purpose and finding that purpose and then and then leveraging it so um there's an article i'll post it was on big think um on this actually i was reading over the vacation that i thought was super cool so um anyways let's so david let's talk you know first of all objection handling um where how come as a data scientist if you will uh how come objection handling is something that you kind of geared yourself towards saying you know what here's a way to think about it uh based on what's out what else is out there or kind of how did you how did you come to this point where you say you know what here's what my thoughts are on objection handling because and i'll put it in context here um you know a lot of people have good ideas i've always thought you know i have some good ideas but are they worth are they worth the shit are they worth people paying for right specifically as it comes to training like you and i do but um where did objection handling come from and what the what's the drive around it and how do you help your customers deal with them and then we'll get into the article itself yeah i mean look you know i think for most of us we deal with sales training if sales was so easy i always say if sales was so easy we would just pay high school students minimum wage to do it instead of you know very smart people a lot of money and highly leveraged compliance to do it and you part of what we're trying to do in the training world is reduce the friction right we as sellers experience friction we're trying to help our buyers through a process and really a lot of the sales process has to do with objections and friction and so um i really love actually you know i always say to my the the people that i teach objection handling is maybe arguably my my most favorite thing to teach okay because there's so much nuance to it and i actually see objection handling discovery and negotiation are kind of three legs of a stool because at any one point you can move in between them and in fact in discovery and negotiation there's always objections so objections are and dealing with them are a way of helping our our buyers reducing friction in the sales cycle and you know as we always say sales is life we always we see lots of objections in our uh on our everyday lives and so kind of the reason why i kind of got into this was because i'm just so curious and i was always so curious when objections were raised in a sales cycle raised in life like what what was what was really the meaning how do you get past them how do you resolve them and so um you know i think we're all still students of this i'm still trying to peel back the onion but um it was just it was one of the most fascinating and and and pervasive elements of the sales cycles that's why i just decided to really get into it i love it and how much is is what you're doing based on the science and the analytics versus your experience you know kind of the science versus the art that you talk about because i i always say the same thing like i think sales should be looked at as more of a science than an art because the science lays the foundation for the art form to be much more effective and same thing with objection handling you know i tell the when i train on objection handling you know my biggest recommendation of reps is be proactive versus reactive like you know the objections are coming like you you know you know if you really thought about it you could write down the top five objections that you get on a daily basis and so don't make it up on the fly when you get them like you should have a response form um but you know how did you compile your training if you will um around objection handling and how much of it was data versus versus kind of your experience yeah i mean i'd say a fair amount was experience and then i use kind of the data to help uh facilitate the uh the resolution of the and i'd say data you know i i was a classical kind of you know physical chemical scientist but then got into a little bit more of this behavioral science which is still you know legit science when i think about um you know why kind of the way i think about objection handling i think of it on a continuum of emotion because oftentimes we think of objections as logical things like oh it's too expensive oh okay well let me see how i can make that more affordable for you and and in some cases that can be the case one of the exercises i actually go through when i when i teach objection handling is i say like take this example of it's too expensive customer says it's too expensive and then what i want you to do is i want you to think of all the reasons why the customer is saying it's too expensive and we come up with pages and pages and they all range from like hey i don't have a budget you know for what you're proposing all the way to um i really don't want to buy your solution because i have a buddy that works at another company whose solution i'm really going to buy and no matter what you say it's just going to be too expensive yeah right so there's that and then there's the whole continuum in between so trying to figure out like all right where is the customer actually coming from um is is a little bit more art i mean certainly there's questions we can ask sure and then when it comes to resolving the objection part of it is is is art and kind of the the psychology but and i can give you some examples uh rooted in science um in many cases to help us resolve so i i like to kind of harmonize those two things but that continuum of emotion is really really important i love it because you know because you almost every sales training methodology right um has some form of understanding the true objection where you know sandler is the pain funnel uh well and when i say objection you know or you know or the issue if you will because that's ultimately what we're trying to get at the the objections coming from somewhere to your point it could be we literally have zero money versus i just don't want this you know um so um so yeah i mean i'm a big fan of of understanding both pieces of it but you know let's actually i'm sorry let me skip to the the back end of it when you absolve the because i got a very specific question here for the audience when you address whatever objections coming up here um how do you know you've really addressed it yeah it's a it's a good question so here's here's this funny example the thing i talk a lot about in objection handling is satisfaction which is exactly what you said i can address something but how do i know i've addressed it to someone's satisfaction i always play the clip from glengarry glenn ross which is a movie that no one has seen by the way yeah no kidding they just know the eight minutes just those eight minutes but there was a scene i'm not gonna i'm not gonna swear on your show here but there was a scene where please do my audience as well we're well versed in okay all right so you know we're we're uh we're uh ed harris says you know hey you know what's your name right and alec baldwin that's my name but that's my name and so i always show that as like that 15 seconds as an example of that's an objection handle right the objection was who are you to come down here and tell me what to do and basically objection handle was shut up and you know i'm better than you are yep now it was handled the objection went away but it was not it was not satisfied it's not deeply satisfied so you know oftentimes i don't know i find with objection handling this is kind of where you the art and the science you can tell if someone is satisfied so if you were to ask me a question you say oh it's too expensive and i kind of give you an objection handle and i say how is that okay how does that sound yeah one says like yeah yeah it's okay yeah like i know it's not you know and and that's kind of where the emotional intelligence comes in where you have to be able to pick that up and say you know i'm hearing that you're satisfied but i i kind of get the sense that you're not and i want to make sure let's just beat it let's just beat it through let's you know and and i think unless you understand the root cause of the objection you'll never really be able to satisfy it so if someone just says oh it's expensive and i give something they say oh it's okay you know it's really getting down to the root cause so i think it's it's less about you know hey did i satisfied that objection and getting the yes or no and more about the upfront work let me just understand i want to make sure i understand this objection is the issue that the price is a b and c yes and i'd say that's just as important as the resolution in terms of generating that satisfaction after the fact i love it yeah and i actually i think you know the closing the closing question is to me you know is hey does that answer you know does that answer your questions obviously but but more importantly is that going to prevent us from doing business together regardless of whether the objection whether i handled it the right way or you're or you know you're 100 satisfied with it is that what's going to get us and is that specifically going to get in the way of us doing business together yeah and i the way you know by phrasing it that way you know you're going to get a yes or a no it's like yeah if we can't address that like i'm not satisfied with that answer uh if we can't address it there's no way we're going to be moving forward here well now you know i stop you know stop the presses here effectively focus all in on whatever that is try to address it yeah i think it's the same so this is why i feel like objection handling negotiation are all part of the same thing sometimes uh people i'd say often and the science says people underestimate the power that they have in an objection handling situation or negotiation so someone says oh it's too expensive or you know i i can't pay annually which is a frequent objection we would get at salesforce very annual business i can't pay annually you know and so before i start trying to resolve that objection is this a deal breaker just asking absolutely yeah and also i i kind of skipped over they're going to have a little bit of a brain fight there but you know it would be with the different sales methodologies right like sandler pain funnel uh three layers of why you know spin selling all that stuff you know it's really trying to get to that and and there's a technique if you will called the clarification technique which is when somebody gives you the objection instead of answering it which is my problem historically because we're getting into the psychology around this right have you studied anything on neurolinguistic programming by any chance a little bit yeah yeah right so um so that you know i'm a visual communicator when you ask me a question my gut reaction is to immediately answer that question because either i think i've heard it before or just that's my nature right is to answer a question um but i've actually had to purposely put clarification question uh um things into my process because when you ask me a question a lot of times it's not that that's not really what you're asking you're asking it down here and it's coming from a different place so i've actually introduced clarification or some people call layering questions can you explain to me could you give me an example of to really first of all slow myself down but second of all to really get to the root really what's where's this coming from right because i mean i'd say at least 80 of the time when i ask a clarifying question on an objection i get a much better understanding of what that objection is right well and oftentimes i find customers will ask you a question and we as sellers don't want to ask the clarification question because we feel we should know the answer we get these questions all the time and so i've found oftentimes when you ask that clarifying question the customer will come back and say you know what i probably didn't explain that in the best possible way and then in your head you're thinking oh thank goodness because i don't feel like such an idiot because i didn't i didn't get that question but you're right like moving slow is important and in fact you know i took some sales actually some leadership training years ago that talked about how men are especially bad at this you know when my wife brings me a problem i feel like she wants me to solve it right like that's what i'm here for to solve the problem that's okay which is not the case i feel like we're a little bit uh a little bit of disadvantage there but yes absolutely you know asking now like you can't ask you know ad nauseum but right but yes clarifying absolutely it's kind of like i took a standard class and the guy did the reverse questioning on me right which is effectively layering and whatever and so he asked me a question or no i asked him a question he reversed it on me which i'm like okay we're just trying to get clarification i asked the question again after i answered it he reversed it on me again i was like okay you know and i asked it a third time and he and he went back into it and i go look if you don't answer my goddamn question right now like this conversation's over i'm getting annoyed here so there's a certain level layer of qualification um but i think you have a certain point you have to kind of stop and realize that they probably gave you everything that that they have at that point or if they didn't they're hiding it from you and they're in the likelihood of you getting it out is not going to be high yes it's true i mean you know we always talk about how important emotional intelligence is we're talking about satisfaction getting down to the the meat of it whether it's objection handling discovery negotiation there's things that you know people have in their head that they don't want to share and uh and getting that out can sometimes be difficult so i think approaching the situation with as much empathy as you can um you know even in your clarification questions you can say hey look so i just want to clarify typically when i work with customers like you i hear the an objection around when i hear that objection to me it means it means this right but i don't want to assume that's the case with you can you can you explain so you kind of like that reward reverse giving a little bit and to pull it out of them show that you're you're very keen to understand the deeper meaning i love it so so let's dive into the post here because i think and i'll i'll link this to to the facebook live for everybody else uh who's watching and then the podcast i'll make sure it gets in there as well but um you know you come at it from a little bit of a different perspective which is where is the customer coming from with that objection and you have this whole understand decide delay satisfy derail right and those are kind of the five different types of objections or why people are giving you an objection and you know just to skip over understand you know that one seems to pretty easy when somebody's genuinely trying to understand so they can they can um help you you know sell it internally i did have a question as it relates to that because you know you say hopefully your champion or you know same thing with a support one right which is you ask your champion and they're really trying to make a decision on this and you're trying to work with them question for you how do you know what's your definition of a champion yeah i mean it's someone who has a very strong that doesn't have to be a person in high positional power in the organization but definitely someone who has a strong affinity towards your solution to you as a seller and who is willing to help you and usher you kind of uh as in a concierge fashion through the buying process on the customer side willing to give you insights that you probably wouldn't get from a non-champion someone who is willing to help you facilitate that buying process um someone who's sitting there you think about it on the same side of the table as you extension of you as the seller yeah that's that's pretty much mine as well and by the way sidebar for everybody listening to this if you haven't determined or if you haven't defined what a true champion means within your organization please sit down with your managers and have that exercise because i think champion is probably one of the most like probably the third most overused phrase in sales i got a champion i got a champion right and you really well how do you know well it's just because you know uh because the guy likes talking to me and you know he picks up my phone call it's like my slight alteration to yours is they actually sit at the table when the time comes to make the decision they don't have to be the decision maker they don't have to be the authority you know the person that has the budget they have to be able to influence that budget and take that money away otherwise it's a coach and coaches are cool coaches are people that help us navigate and tell us where we need to go but if they're not sticking their neck out in in when when it matters then to me they can't be a champion so they do have to have a certain level of clout they don't have to be the ceo or the vp but they have to have enough clout to be able to be in that room when having that conversation um so let's let's go into the ones that i'm pretty interested in here the level two uh now level two is they're deciding so i get that let's talk about the level three delay like because i think this is the one that most of the audience gets at least my audience gets and i think our number one competitor competitor obviously is no decision and and the person that says hey here's a perfect example so morgan i just brought morgan on board we have him to to for some short-term success going right after sdr managers okay because that he used to be an sdr manager so he knows how to speak that language and all that other stuff and so he's doing a great job he's getting good conversations great stuff but then it goes towards okay i have to bring this to my vps sales to get authorization for it and now he's stuck in this friends friend zone right which is look it's not me like i i'm still waiting on my boss i'm still you know i'm still hearing oh it's the end of the quarter we'll get back to you and come so that derail or kind of just eh how do what's the mentality behind that and what do you do as a sales rep to to overcome it yeah i think there's a distinction between like a true delay tactic which is let's say you call someone and they say call me back next month or you know what we'd like to explore this further but we have a new vp of sales who's starting next month and this should really be their call so we're i think we should just wait until then um which is different than the kind of the no response like oh i'm trying to get in touch with i need to bring someone else into this conversation who's hard to reach to me that's not really a delay tactic because the person is still interested in moving forward or at least it's not overtly a delay tactic the person is just you need to you need to navigate to that person to try to bring them in i think about the delay tactics i think about like yeah call me back next month you know hey look this sounds good but i think we need to get a few more quotes um you know the new vp is starting next week and i think you know this should be their decision or or even you know we need to go through an rfp yeah and so the way i kind of think about uh kind of addressing that objection which is it can be it's kind of like the middle of the road i find that most objections kind of fall not so much we should be so lucky on the decision side and the understanding side like oh i just is it available in french like or spanish like wouldn't it be great if that was it and it's and and it's not often a customer trying to completely derail us um it's usually in the middle where you're trying to delay or trying to understand how to satisfy the objection and so the technique there's kind of two techniques i talk about when we talk about delay uh tactics number one is is to qualify and number two is to remind so number one we think about qualifying okay so you know okay call me back next month or you know we need to have the new vp start well help me understand if i were to call you back next month what would we talk about i want to make sure i'm respecting your time so i'm happy to call you back next month if you'd like us to do that you know going through an rfp uh process will help me understand what what is that what does that process look like you know is that something that we that you think we should be involved you know to kind of pull the the kind of the second the second lever on remind oftentimes when there is a delay tactic and play there's a cost to the customer of delaying so you might say like i've been in situations before many times where they say we want to go through an rfp and you say well hold on a second so let me understand you're going to go you're going to go through the rfp the rfp process is probably going to take x number of months you said that this problem before because we did the discovery was costing you about ten thousand dollars a month you're going to get a whole bunch of vendors who are responding to this rfp saying all good things that they're and we're all going to say the same thing right and there might be some questions that you're not going to ask that would actually highlight some of the really great differentiators between the vendors so you know you know is this something that you want to spend all this time going through because i don't know if it's really in your best interest to do it and so that's what i mean when someone's delaying qualifying them reminding them of the cost of the delay and helping the customer decide whether or not it even makes sense to delay whether you want me to call you back should we go through the rfp process doesn't make sense just to wait till the vp is back next week or the new vp maybe there's some things we can actually do in the meantime to set the foundation to decide whether or not you know we can we can move forward or we should set that vp up for success in a specific way so those are the techniques i i like to employ around the delay it's really exploring the delay qualifying the delay and reminding the customer of the cost of the delay i think that so it's funny because you know i do the exact same thing slightly differently from a techniques and approach but one of the biggest things i think one of the biggest benefits or and challenges of objection handling is the usually the client is working with all the information you know they know exactly how much budget they they have they know exactly you know what other initiatives they're working on what their real timeline is and really what happens if they don't do this and so that's why i think the qualification phase is so important to dig into two or three of the kind of the go-to questions like if you will of you know to your point of how much is this costing you per month if you don't do this you know what happens if you don't do so all that hey what are your priorities and what are your challenges type of approach in the qualification phase so that then later on what i do is i call it my summary email right where afterwards a great conversation today here's a few things i took out of this could you please email me back let me know if it's all accurate if i missed anything and then getting you to say yes john that's accurate because now in two or three days or you know two or three weeks when you flake on me i can remind you to say hey is this still accurate because if it is we should move forward here but if it's not that's okay let's just get 10 minutes back on the calendar so we can reset those expectations right oh yeah there's a there's one of my favorite articles i was referencing it last week it was called the most powerful question sales and three ways to use it and the most powerful question to burst the bubble is what problem are we trying to solve and you can use it in the in the discovery phase okay help me understand what problem you're trying to solve you can use it in the um in the escalation phase so when i'm now let's say i'm talking with you and you're like the the sales director and now i'm on now you're going to bring me into conversation with the vp i can then summarize here's what i've heard so far from john your sales director um here's the problem you're looking to solve so i can use it there but then lastly it's when the customer maybe gets some cold feet or tries to you know back out you can always say hey look at i i understood you were trying to solve this problem which we quantified to be you know of such a size um is has that gone away right is that something so when they try to delay you can kind of pull them back now obviously the customers are always going to do what's in their best interest i think it's our job as sellers to to the extent we can show them that uh not delaying is actually in their best interest yeah and if they do delay again documenting that because inevitably when they delay they ultimately come back if they're ready to sign and now it's like this rush job well i need it by this date i need it and and you know i think as long as you articulate that earlier on to say this is what happens you know when you delay these type of things happen and then document that and get them to confirm it now you get something to at least say hey slow your roll here a little bit pal i'm going to do everything that i can to make sure you're on board of the right way but you know i told you our process is this and you've agreed to that like next time we had that conversation or last time we had that conversation right yeah and look i love building on on what you just said you know thinking about when you go back to the customer and you say hey look here's what i heard um instead of saying you know did i miss anything which which is great we can say what am i missing what am i like i have missed something i'm sure the worst thing you can have is a customer that comes back and says oh everything is good i mean that that does happen right but you want them to start poking holes in your argument so that when you when it comes to the risk of delay or an objection you've kind of you've shored that up as much as you can got it look in a couple minutes left here let's dive into like the the nasty ones because you know a huge part of the audience that listens to this are you know the kids making the calls and somebody's just straight up says taking you know i listened to one of morgan's calls recently where the guy was just like yeah take me off your list immediately and morgan kind of and i give him credit for this man he pushed back and said hey i thought you were an str manager and the guy's excuse me he's like so you know i called you with a very specific reason for my call what i wanted to talk to you about and you're screaming at me to take me off your list do you tell your sales reps to make phone calls you know that was his question and i thought it was an extremely good question to the right person and the guy was just yeah whatever take me off your list click and so look there's some people that you're never going to be able to you know they're you're never going to be able to change their mind no matter what approach you take right but are there some things that you can do to to address that person who's either derail it trying to straight up derail you or to your your level four one which is satisfy like hey you know somebody else got it for half as much you know like that happens in this let's talk about pricing right that happens in the sas world all the time it's like hey i i heard you sold it to xyz company for you know 30 bucks a license why are you pitching it to me for 50 right so or just straight up like we're not interested in this so what are your kind of thought process around dealing with kind of the aggressive objection that most reps just pretty much cave on and say okay sorry click or i'll give it to you for 30 bucks that type of thing yeah well i you know it's funny your your argument i call it the cilantro argument so i don't know if you like cilantro or not john do you like cilantro a little hot yeah i do too but uh but some people just hate it hate it and you know i ask people in my audiences i'm like have you ever tried to convince someone who hates cilantro that they should like it that's just it's not happening yeah so so so remember that not everyone is going to be a good fit and you don't have to change everyone's mind um you know when someone said your question when someone's trying to you know derail you um you know sometimes starting with a logical objection handling approach can be good because some people might just be have that temperament where they just come at you with guns a blazing and they actually do want an answer but you'll very quickly learn if that's going to work or not i guess in your morgan example um you know the if it's a serious derailing objection one of the things i advocate for is really mapping out the customer landscape so is this person who's derailing us are we single threaded through them um are they actually key influencers or someone else in the deal that can help us can we phone a friend um is there an opportunity to short circuit the objection or bring one of our players in you know we often talk about account-based marketing which is you know is more about aligning people in our organization with theirs so is there a way of short-circuiting that objection by bringing um you know the right people in i think speed is also important so being able to address the objection and i actually had a question for you but being able to address the objection sooner than later people have a very strong status quo bias and the longer they hold on to that objection the more powerful it becomes absolutely you know i actually had a question for you when you think about you talked about being proactive in your objection handling which is uh oftentimes to you know to write it down make a playbook make sure that your your team knows it but the question of should i be proactively if my if i know my product is expensive right you know should i be bringing and i know nine times out of ten cost is going to come up yeah just bring that up at the beginning of the sales cycle so i think yeah so that's a technique right i call it the preemptive strike where you know and it's only when the objection happens so consistently based on the same scenario you know what i mean it's not well price we all get pricing but but do we all get pricing objection from this person at this stage of the sales process qualification whatever it is and yes if it's happening more times than not then i my my recommendation with objection handling is always split test try everything right and so identify a challenge an objection come up with an approach whatever the technique is you know feel felt found reprioritization justification clarification those type of things and then and then play around with it for that week so when that week when that specific objection comes up use that objection handling technique each time and then see and then just do a plus minus it worked it didn't work so that would you know when i say be proactive i say you know write down your objections and come up with a couple of different ways of handling them but then there's the proactively addressing the objection before it comes up which is a technique called the preemptive strike um and i'm a big fan of that one specifically again when you know your business and and hey i'll ask it hey is pricing the number one consideration for you here in this in this thing right because the reason i ask is because you know we're not the cheapest on the block but we never want to be right yeah no absolutely i mean you know so i think once you start getting into that very serious uh you know satisfaction based derailing you kind of have to rethink first thing i always say is like is ask is this worth it i mean morgan gave that great objection response which i think is great and sometimes that can turn the turn the tables around but you know often you know oftentimes you know it's it's it's already gone too far so you know question you know are you out to lunch can you even you know do this and then you know when it comes to satisfaction derailing objections you know empathy empathy empathy like that's the first thing is just hey look you're dealing with an emotionally charged person for you to come in all emotionally charged is not going to do anyone any favors you kind of have to match that temperament right the same way the way you think about it like imagine you went into a restaurant and um uh you were standing in line for a long time and you you were you saw a couple come in that was you know just got in and just you know the maitre d kind of sat them and you would go up to the host you would say hold on a second yeah we were here first right and you're all emotionally charged if the person started screaming back at you and say well sir they were they were here three hours ago and now they just get like you'd lose your mind you lose your mind right so i think the service industry can teach us a lot about objection handling it's as much about what you say and how you say it um much about how you what you say as is how you say it and how you kind of you bring that empathy yeah tone matters right all you got to do is ask uh anybody's in a relationship uh uh matters right with one very specific word which is the word fine right hey honey how was your day oh it's fine you know it's fine honey how was your day fine okay yeah oh yeah you gotta bring that yeah no i gotta get off here i got another call scheduled here but i appreciate your time look um tell look for everybody who's looking for more again i'll post this on there but go to cerebralselling.com uh the article on uh david's blog is called the ultimate guide for mastering objections and david tell everybody else how else they can you know find out more information about what you're doing and uh who you're helping out these days yeah cerebralselling.com has everything it has all of my content uh blog posts podcasts information about the training i deliver uh speaking engagements and so on and then linkedin just like you man like i'm all over linkedin as much as i can twitter um so feel free to hit me up and i love to connect perfect well david thank you it's been a pleasure i feel like you and i could have this conversation for another couple hours here uh but in the interest of uh keeping the audience entertained and enjoyable and half hour i think is the right mix i'll put this out on podcast for everybody listening there um but anyways thank you david for your time and uh everybody else make it a great day well done thanks john all right thanks take care cheers you