51: NEAT Selling with Richard Harris

Hey everybody, what's going on? This is John Barrows. Happy Monday. Hopefully you all had a fantastic weekend. I am excited to have a conversation today with actually not only a colleague, but a good friend of mine, Richard Harris. Richard, do you want to say hi to everybody? Introduce yourself. Hey everybody, John, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here too. I'm excited to have a conversation today with actually not only a colleague, but a good friend. All right, sorry. That was Facebook jumping in on me. So go ahead. Sorry about that. No, no worries. I'm glad to be here. It only took me like 57 episodes to finally get on your podcast. 51, my friend, 51. 51. So thank you. I'm glad to be here.

I'm excited as always. I feel, although I feel like we've had so many conversations, we could have made 51 just between the two of us, but that would have bored the audience. I'm sure. Yeah, I think so. And that's kind of why I was holding you off on this one because I wanted to make sure that, uh, that, uh, first of all, I worked out the kinks of the podcast and the make it happen stuff, but also, um, oops, I'm sharing my screen here. Uh, but also, you know, cause I wanted to pick a topic that I, that I thought you and I, again, I think we could talk about almost anything. Um, but I think this one is near and dear to your heart specifically, uh, the band versus neat. Cause you've come up with a new acronym for this, but with that, like, you know, give people some context of where you're coming from and, and what the Harris consulting group's all about.

Uh, cause I think that'll help us help everybody else understand kind of where we're going to take this conversation. Yeah. So where the Harris consulting group comes in is, you know, we teach reps how to earn the right to ask questions and that could be SDRs. That could be AEs. And actually we've revamped all of our content and now we're focusing on customer success. So I've got a whole separate training for customer success, but it's teaching people how to earn those right to ask questions. And then this is the part you're talking about, John is what are the right questions to ask? When should we be asking them? How should we be asking them? Is there a specific order we should be asking them in?

And that's really where I think, uh, what made you ask me to come on today. So I'm super excited to talk about it. Yeah. Cause I, I think everybody kind of struggles with this a little bit where historically and, and, you know, everybody rails on it now, but I think it was somewhat appropriate at least to have some structure to it back in the day of bands. Right. And, and did band come from, I forget, was that like an IBM thing? That was an IBM thing, right? If I remember my research correctly, I think it came from IBM back in the day in the sixties and, you know, look, everything is great. Like something is better than nothing. That's the most important thing around the sales process. Right.

Um, I can tell you my first sales process later, but it's important that we have band and we have to respect what it is. And, and I would argue that as much as I don't like to teach it and don't want to do it for some people, it works. Look, if there's a sales process that you're following and you're crushing your numbers, please ignore anything Richard ever has to say, right? Like find a nugget here and there as John calls them the golden nuggets. Right. But please, like if you're crushing it, don't feel like you need to change it just because Richard came in and said something or even John, like find what works for you, but be open to hearing new ideas. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, and also just like anything, like anything that's applied too specifically, I think is, is wrong as well.

Right. So I think any structure is better than no structure to your point, but anything that goes to the nth degree with it. And that's what has historically frustrated me about band is, you know, and for those of you out there who for some reason don't know what bands, the acronym is, is budget authority, need, and timeline. Right. And what I found was that there's historically, there was this, you know, if applied too strictly, it was, Hey, uh, you know, literally, do you have budget for this project? No, I don't. Okay. Nevermind next click. And I was like, Whoa, wait a minute. Like, I think like, I think the stat out there is something like 80% of, of purchases within an organization in any given year are not quote unquote budgeted purchases.

Right. Right. Uh, same thing with authorities. Oh, you're not the person that signs off on this contract. See you later. I don't want to talk to you. Oh, there's not a timeline on this. Nevermind. Right. And to me, I always said the only thing I really give a shit about in band and ever really did was need was, was, was literally like, do you need this? And whether you know it or not, like, you know, my job is to understand, like, can my product really make a difference for your business? Because if there's a genuine need there and it can make a difference, I can find budget for it. I can get to the right people to make the decision. I can extend it. I can expedite a timeline. So for me, the need was really the main piece.

And then you better be a decent sales rep. Once you understand that to expedite all that other shit. So with that, walk us, walk me through NEAT. Right. We haven't talked about this in a while. Um, you came up with this, with this new acronym for it and talk to me about your, the justification of why of the evolution of band to NEAT. So I was, you know, I'll be honest with you, right? Like I'm a sales trainer and I'm always trying to figure out something new and something I can hang my hat on. And I was a little bit newer to the business. And you've been a great friend and mentor. So I was just trying to figure something out that, that I could create and, you know, create a little buzz around.

Yeah. But I kept playing with this thing. And I even think I showed you an early rendition one night when we were having drinks or something. And, uh, and it just sort of fell in that NEAT is for need. E is for the economic impact of that need. I mean, do people understand what the value of solving that pain is worth? A is no longer about authority. Even on inbound leads, you don't get to authority. A is about access to authority. Can the person I'm talking with, get me a meeting with the right person, right? Can you get me in front of the Pope if that's what I need to do? Right. And T is still timeline. That doesn't change. And one of the things that I, that I did when I created this is I, I made it, I made it look like a little compass, you know, with an N on the top and an E over where the East is.

And, um, down on the bottom is a and T and it looks like a compass. And that was by design because, you know, Vance, you're supposed to sort of follow budget authority need timeframe with neat selling. You don't, you sometimes you're starting the conversation based on timeline or based on, you know, my boss told me to do such and such. Right. So now you can have a couple of questions around authority or you've got, you're starting with authority. So it rotates like a compass, right? So there's no specific one that has to come first. I happen to call it neat selling because it was just, it made it look good on a logo and it was easy to trademark, right? Like that was, you know, that was the reason.

So, um, I like it. I, and so, but, and to me, well, for you and I know it ebbs and flows, but from a qualification standpoint, what do you think is the most important thing? Like what, like if you were to, if you were to pick one thing to tell a new rep when you're making calls inbound, outbound, whatever, uh, what, uh, what, what do you really need to make sure before you get off that phone and determine whether it's worth taking that next step with somebody, what do you think are really the core things? I mean, I know in general, but yeah, no, I agree with you. I think it really comes back to need, right? That's the most important thing. And there are different layers of need, right? I sort of call it surface pain to core pain.

And I draw this image of the earth, right? You know, you have the, you know, the surface of the earth and then you have the mantle and then you have the outer core and the inner core and any pain you talk about first is always a surface pain, right? I don't care what they say because that's just what they're trying to describe. The key that matters is why is it so important right now to solve this pain and how's it going to impact them if they can solve the pain? If you can figure out those two why and how questions, that's when you're going to have real need, not just the surface pain stuff, right? So, so, so this is a Sandler pain funnel stuff too, right? So, so I've always kind of, I don't want to say roll my eyes to a certain degree.

And again, I think this goes to any direct application of anything like to, you know, two letter of the law type of thing. But I always, you know, the pain funnel with Sandler effectively is there's that surface low. Oh, we haven't hit our numbers, right? So we're not, so sale, let's talk about sales training for us, right? So a client says, Oh, well, we need training. Well, why do you need training? Well, we haven't hit our numbers and we need to, we need to improve our conversion ratios or something like that. And it's like, okay, well, why, what, what happens if you don't, you know, that type of thing from a business standpoint? Well, if we don't hit our numbers, then we're going to miss our quarter coming up here.

And if we miss our quarter, then we might not get that next round of funding from a business standpoint, we're going to suffer. Okay. Well, and then what does that mean to you personally? Right? So that's that third layer of pain. Well, if we don't hit our targets, then I'm going to get fired. And now, okay, now I have that thing. And, you know, as a somewhat sophisticated buyer, um, I've always kind of rolled my eyes at, at, at the person that just kind of goes through that and then finds that quote unquote quantifiable pain and then says, well, so every day that you're missing out on training, you're losing a hundred thousand dollars worth of revenue. John, John, come on, buddy. You know, we're not selling to you.

All right. I know, but, but, but come on, look, you bought the timeshare, not me, which is a whole other story. That's a different story. Right. No, but, but seriously though, like how often, cause I can walk you through a pain funnel. Right. And, and, and, and I could be like, all right, Richard, you know, so it's going to cost you, you know, for every hour, what's your hourly rate for every hour you stop making this decision, it's going to cost you X, but there's always that yet. Okay. It's almost like ROI calculators. I, I tend to roll my eyes at ROI calculators because it's like, I, I remember a client asked me once like to put an ROI calculator. I was like, really, you really want me to do this?

And so I said, fine. And I put this whole spreadsheet together with their numbers. And at the end, the number was so ridiculous that I put like this at the bottom, I put 85% bullshit factor, like literally 85% bullshit factor. And the number was still ridiculous. And I told him, you're still not going to believe this. So help me. How do you really walk through that, that quantifiable pain where somebody actually buys into it? Um, I think it's how you say things. It's not, you know, and, and again, you know, I know we're going a little flippant in here, but I definitely am not. The guy says, well, if you do this and this is your pain and this is what happens in this one, I don't try to turn it around into something like that.

Right. I really ask them to discuss it from a feeling perspective. Right. Because everything that you buy in life is a feeling, right? Right. Every price has a feeling that TV feels too expensive. It's not too expensive. It feels too expensive. Right. Or this one feels like it's in my budget. So by asking people what their feelings are around the pains you discover, you actually get them to buy in. Right. So for example, this is my favorite one to do. And it's a little bit of a budget question, but people say, well, Richard, how much is your training? And I'll say, oh, it's, you know, X number of dollars, you know, for the day, by the way, how does that feel? I don't wait. I don't play the, let me give my pricing and pause and measure their response.

I go completely different and say, how does that price feel? And the answers I get are amazing. People who I think would never say that's expensive go, wow, that feels a little bit more than what I was thinking about. But now I'm talking about the word feeling because you can't, you cannot take away that word. Right. Right. Right. There are people who I would think that we would say, oh, that's not, they're like, oh, that doesn't feel bad at all. And I would have thought for sure I was out of the ballpark on it. Right. And so it's, it's an interesting way. So for me, I like driving towards the feeling and the emotion versus a little bit more of trying to flip it in that ROI calculators is what matters to me.

Yeah. And I, cause I I'm, I'm similar in the sense I don't, I actually like that approach of, of like, how does that feel to you? Cause it really gets a, I'm guessing it gets a pretty genuine on the spot answer. It's like, they can't feel good and then you can address it. Right. Yep. And the rule of reciprocity in life won't allow them to let that question go unanswered. Right. They are so obligated as a human, regardless of, and that's not even a, a, a U S thing. Like I've tested it with different people in different cultures and it's, everybody does it. Yep. So I like that. And, and I'm, I'm similar in the sense that I, I talk more generalities than specifics from what, from a pain standpoint, I'll do back a napkin math on stuff to say, okay, you know, for, for us, and again, we'll, we'll use the easy examples.

Cause we're both in the same field here, you know, my, like for instance, and I recommend everybody do this, ask some like two or three go-to questions up front that are obvious questions for you to ask, but are meant for a reason. So for instance, for us, it's what's your average deal size, right? So if somebody says their average deals, their ACV is 30, 40, $50,000. And then all of a sudden they say, you know, and I tell them the training's going to cost whatever 20 grand. And they're like, they have a heart attack. It's like, well, now this is a pretty easy justification here. Like if I get you one extra deal, it pays for itself. So come on. Right. Um, thankfully I think our ROI is a little bit easier to quantify in the short term than a lot of other places.

Um, so, so how do you, so, so let's talk, let's kind of pivot, but, but as it relates to, to, to pricing, right. Um, because this kind of aligns with the budget question, you know, and, and do they have budget? I personally don't like saying, what is your budget? I think that's terrible because if, if somebody says $20,000, a rep's going to sell $19,999 worth of shit to them. Right. I like asking lucky they'll sell that much. Yeah, exactly. I like selling it like $11,000. Yeah. No shit. Right. Um, but I think I like asking, is this a budgeted thing? Right. Because that tells me how far along the, you are in the sales process, but let's talk about pricing here for a minute. Um, how for your experience, how early do you bring up pricing?

Um, how do you present pricing? And then obviously I understand how you deal with it after that. And once you deliver and say, how do you feel about that? But what's your philosophy on, on budget and also discussing pricing in the qualification phase. And one more preface to this, because a lot of companies actually of like tell their SDRs don't get, you're not allowed to talk pricing. Right. So it actually gives them the, sorry, I'm not authorized to have that conversation, which to a certain degree might actually be a good thing. But if you evolve, you should be able to at least have a logical conversation. Cause I'm, I'm going to be annoyed if I ask you how, you know, give me a general overview, at least how much this price, and you can't give me that price.

I'm going to be kind of pissed at it. So what's your thought process and philosophy around budget pricing and the qualification? So there's a couple of things I want to say too, is that, you know, um, there are at least two different types of SDR teams as the SDR team. Cause that's who we're talking about today, John, you know, Hey, we're six months in, we're just starting our SDR team. You know, they don't have enough chops yet and it's not their fault. It's just a lack of experience to answer questions like budget. Right. So if you've got an early stage SDR team, who doesn't have a lot of experience, I wouldn't have them talking about it. Look, if you're zoom, right. Who we're using today or one of my clients, but you know, they've got a very sophisticated SDR team.

Their SDRs have been there 12 months, 18 months longer. Then maybe those experienced people could start to do that because that's even part of a career path. So I want to make sure that when people hear these answers, they're thinking about in the context of their SDR team, not all SDR teams, right? Cause not all SDR teams are created equal. Um, so in terms of budget, the first thing I tell everybody, I don't care if you're an SDR and AE, stop using the word budget and stop using the word pricing. Let the prospects brings up, bring up those things, right? Anytime they bring, anytime they bring up the word price or budget or cost, I immediately tell everybody to change that word to commercial terms.

John, I know that you want to talk about commercial terms. I'm happy to do that because commercial terms now means we have to agree on something that there's a give and a take. There's an ebb and flow, not I have a budget and you have a price and you've got to make your price fit in my budget period. Okay. Because there's lots of things that can be negotiated in a commercial term, logo usage, case study, use cases, all kinds of stuff. So when you start changing the language, it one, I think it sounds more professional to, you know, to a certain extent and two, it gives you a little bit more comfort and courage as a sales rep or an SDR to talk about pricing. So it doesn't feel like you're giving away something for nothing, which is the biggest challenge I think we have.

Okay. In terms of when do you bring it up? Whenever the prospect wants to bring it up. I let them bring it up. So there's a couple of things I teach along the way. I teach a thing called a respect contract, which teaches the reps how to have the courage and confidence to ask the questions we want to ask, to earn the right to ask the questions that need to be asked. And so that when these other, if you've gone through a good respect contract and pricing comes up, you can acknowledge it. And, you know, there are lots of times I'll give you the one example people get come to me with is Richard, you know, my SDR gets on the phone. They're two minutes into the conversation. They're just trying to qualify.

And the person on the other line goes, Hey, Richard, you know, just, just tell me what the price is. And so this is my, this is what I tell 99% of everybody to say is say, Hey, John, I understand that pricing is really important to you. Happy to give that to you before we get off the call today. Before that though, can we at least have a couple of conversations around what you're trying to accomplish? Right. Hopefully John's going to be human enough to go. Yes. Sure. I would also probably turn it around and even say, Hey, I'm happy to have a conversation with you about pricing and budget. Um, you know, let's make sure we do, I promise we'll do that by the end of the call, but real quick, John, just before we even talk about that, you know, we're five minutes into this conversation.

Do you mind if I ask what's driving a conversation around budget first? Yeah. So now I flip it back to them, right? If they've asked me a question about a specific topic that indicates to me that I've earned the right to ask them something back. Right. And how you do it, your tone of voice, your pace is very, very important. Right. So you can't just say, well, John will tell me what your budget is. Right. Before I tell you price, you got to tell me budget. I don't want to know what their budget is. I want to know what's driving the question behind the budget. Right. It's called question behind the question. Right. Because that's what we need to know. Not what the budget is. Right. Yeah. Oftentimes people will say things like, Oh, I'm just asking now because I want to make sure we cover it.

Okay. No problem. We'll cover it. Oh, I'm asking now because we, and I've had people say this, well, we've only budgeted X amount. I'm like, don't worry. We're going to be just fine. Right. They actually give it up before I've had to say pricing. Yeah. I've had people say, Oh, you know what? We're just putting our budget together. Well, that's a great piece of knowledge for me to know that they're just putting their budget together before I even give them my price. Because now I can actually try to help educate them on how to buy what I sell, which is, or you sell, which is sales training. Right. Let's talk about budget. By the way, if you're doing, you know, this also allows me to bring up competition.

Right. If you're still at that stage and you're asking me about price, well, that earns me the right to ask about competition. Cause that means you're comparing price to something. Right. So there's lots of games you play. I'm going to stop there. Cause you know, you and I will ramble if we're not careful. No, I think, I think it's good though. I mean, the idea, cause I think every, to your point, I think everybody struggles, especially younger reps struggle with price. Like I, you know, I don't struggle with price at all because first of all, big fat pipeline. And, you know, I've gotten to the point in my career where I kind of know my value. I know what this training does for the right client.

Um, and so I'm, I'm, I'm unapologetic about it. I don't even, I just say the price and I'm like, fuck it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I don't give a shit. Right. Right. I reference you all the time on that. People ask me about pricing. I'm like, I said, I'm waiting to get to that day where I can be a little bit more like John barrels. I'm getting there, but I'm like, here it is. And here it isn't. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, cause at the end of the day, you know, the, I think the sad thing that we've done as sales reps is we've conditioned people to, to assume a discount, which, and there's almost this chicken and eggs thing going on here. Right. It's like, cause there's an assumption that there's enough margin in there to get discount and everybody wants to get something before they buy.

Right. Um, and it, but it doesn't have to be, I think the problem is, is the most reps think it has to be priced. But to your point earlier, they could be giving up on, on certain terms on longer term contract. You know, there's different things that we can get. And I I'm very, uh, similar to you in terms of changing the vocabulary. So for instance, when the word discount comes up, I tell reps, remove that word from your, from your vocabulary a hundred percent. I don't mean remove discount from the vocabulary or from the actual discount or just the word and change it to creativity or flexibility. Right. Look, I definitely have some flexibility in my pricing. I definitely, I can definitely get creative with my pricing.

Usually that's what comes in the form of longer term contracts or, or, or, or larger size deals. So when we get to that point in the conversation, we can have that. Right. So again, kind of almost respect contracts saying, look, happy to address discounting. Here's the framework of it. And we'll deal with it when it comes. As long as you're not having a heart attack that my price is way out of the way range in the short term here. Right. Yeah. I'd like, I'd like to put something out there too. The problem with discounting too, isn't, isn't the reps and it isn't lack of courage or confidence and respectfully to all the VPs and CEOs. It's your fault. The problem is, is that on the 30th of the month, you guys will cut any deal you can to get the fricking logo.

And that's okay. Yeah. But then when the first comes along and you're like, well, no more discounts. Well, it's kind of like, really? Like that's it. I've written about this and I, and I pondered this. I wrote about this and I sat on it for six months because I was afraid I was going to upset clients, but you want to know the best day to buy anything? Particularly if you're buying a SaaS solution, the 30th, any day, any, any other day you can get any deal you want. Yeah. All like literally just almost give you anything. Sorry to say that, but it's not my fault that you can't hold your pricing ground. Hold the line, people hold the line. And that goes to the CEOs, the VPs of sales, the directors of sales.

Don't get mad at the reps when you guys keep sending mixed signals. Okay. And that's where, no, you're spot on. I mean, that that's unfortunately the short-term nature that we're in, right? Cause the month, especially companies that go public, right? Because now they're being measured by the market. And I've always said this, I think we're in this really brutal position right now of everybody knows quality is the answer, but we're still focused on short-term stuff. So that's why in the month and you know, the biggest problem with closing in general is, is we close on our timeline, not theirs, right? We have to close the end of the quarter, but if we're closing on your timeline on your priorities, then I can pull challenge yourself.

Then I can push back on you and say, to your point, Richard, if I really understand what your needs are and what your priorities are and what the impact really is about making this decision or not making the decision, if those are genuine things, then when it comes time to close you, I can call you out on that shit and be like, hold on a second, Richard. You said, boom, boom, boom, boom, like I'm not putting words in your mouth. You've said this. So that's why I'm pushing you to do this. But if you don't have those things, discount, it's hard. It's really hard. And everybody knows, by the way, I'm sorry, one more thing on discount. Everybody knows that discount doesn't go away at the end of the month.

Like everybody knows that. That's why it's such a sad way of selling because I'm going to tell you, Richard, Hey, you know what? I'll give you 20% off. If you sign by the end of the month, right out of nowhere, even though I've done a really good job building rapport and relationship all the way through. Now I'm going to do a salesy shitty thing, ruin the rapport, ruin your perception of me, ruin the value of my solution, offer you a discount at 20% if you say by the end of the month. So I might say, sure, fine. And then the end of the month comes and I get busy. I forget to do whatever it is. And then I call you on Monday. It's like, all right, I'm ready to go. Well, now you've got to be the asshole either way.

You either have to go to your boss and say, Hey, can we extend this discount? Or you have to tell me no. And I know that discount didn't go. Your profitability didn't change over the weekend. You know what I mean? So nobody went in the system and updated pricing. Yeah, exactly. So I hear it all the time. I got a question from Lucas, um, as it relates to this, how do you feel about discussing the cost in terms of labor consulting, et cetera, as well as the costs of the software solution? Wait, how did that again? Yeah. Lucas, what do you mean by, tell me a little bit more about that. Do you mean like the, like everything that's included in the price? So I think what he's saying is, you know, you have your SaaS solution here, but, and I think, and I'll, I'll kind of iterate on this while he responds there.

But, um, I think, you know, you have your heart, hard costs, right? But then there's the stuff that the client should do. They should do training. They should do, you know, the upfront on, you know, the engagement process, right? They should have consulting in there, but a lot of reps are scared. So they put it in after the fact, like, what are your thoughts about talking with somebody up front about the entire package of what they should do versus selling them what you probably think they would buy? I think it's easier. If I understand the question correctly, I think it's easier to start big and go small, right? It's easier to start with $75,000 and whittle it down, not from discounting, but from discussing the services, what they want, what they don't want, what they really want to cut out, those kinds of things.

It's easier to go from 75,000 down to another price, right? To a lower price. It's much harder to start here and go up. And I actually look, I'm a sales trainer, right? And I still make mistakes. I made a mistake on a very big deal. In fact, John, I need to talk to you offline about it. I need my advice from my guru. I included a price and I said, you're going to get so many licenses to my sales portal for what I want. And I didn't actually put in the pricing of the portal. I just said, you're going to get so many licenses. And I never put in what the price of the number of reps they were going to have versus the number of reps I was going to give them a license for. And that became a point of contention in the negotiation process.

Even after they saw it in writing on the proposal, once it came in on the contract, they had a different thought in their head. So that's on me. That's my fault. So I had to do what I think everybody should do. I needed to make good, right? Granted, even though they could have read it and maybe figured it out, it's still my fault that I made it hard for them. So I'm going to do good by them. And it made it harder for me to actually try and sell them up additional licenses. So I think if I understand the question from Lucas, start with the whole thing, itemize each piece if you can. And then look and then decide how you're going to present it to them. Yeah. Well, and I think because it's way easy, because this goes back to your point of not discounting, right?

Because then what happens is it's about taking things away and nobody likes to have shit taken away from them. So it's like, okay, it's set. Let's use your example. Okay. It's 75,000 includes all these different things, online access, reinforcement, coaching, the days, all that stuff. And then they say, well, you know, geez, that's a lot. That's pretty expensive. It's like, okay, well, look, we don't have to do the online stuff. We can take that so we can do, you know, we can do the reinforcement, the remote stuff and whatever else, but it won't include the portal licenses. And that'll be $50,000. Right. And it's like, well, but we want those. Okay. Well, then you have to pay for them. Now you can have an honest, yeah, but now you can have an honest conversation about it.

Right. Right. And it wasn't that it was done dishonestly. It was just, you know, something new for me too. So yeah. I mean, and we all fuck around with it. All right. Let's see what happens. And that's why I think you and I have the luxury of being able to fuck around with pricing reps don't, unfortunately. Right. As I tell people all the time, you know, everything I get to say in training is in the bubble of Richard Harris's world. So conscious that if I'm standing in front of you for six hours, I might be flipping and sarcastic, but it's because I'm in front of you for six hours and I got to get you to pay attention. Right. That's not how I want you to say it to customers. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

We spend time role-playing a lot. Well, what's that really going to sound like in your conversation compared to how Richard sort of explains it? So. Let me ask one more question before we jump off here. How, well, actually it looks like Luke has clarified. If the software costs 500 bucks a month, but it's going to cost you $5,000 to hire a consultant to migrate it over in a quarter of an FTE. So a $6,000 solution costs $31,000 to the company. Right. So they're buying it, but they have to spend all this extra time and maybe even hire a consultant to do it. Is that your place to talk to them about that as a sales rep trying to sell them that's just the software, this other consulting piece, like the, the, the transition costs, like to help them understand.

Cause to me, that's a little scary, right? Cause now you're including a bunch of costs that are not really up to you, but they're going to happen. So how, I guess, how open are you going to be on that? I think this is the part where I can, and I've done this because I've said this in the beginning of, I call it part of my respect contract is that I always tell people, look, if I don't know the answer or I can't help you, I'm going to tell you. So if I'm a rep like you, Lucas, I think I would turn around and say something like, here's what I think you need to do. However, this is not what I'm tasked with. I'm really good at understanding this piece. I'm happy to help you navigate it, but I'm not the expert on that.

And I'm even, and I know it feels like a punt, but more importantly, what that says to your prospect is, Hey, you know what? I care about you enough not to bullshit you, right? What they want more than anything else in the world is they want to, people don't want to buy from people they like, they want to buy from people they trust and they're going to trust you more, Lucas. So I will even defer on this question from you, Lucas, to say, I may not be the right guy to answer that question because most of the training I do, most of the companies I work with don't have those separate pieces, right? They don't charge extra for, for the service side. So, you know, take my advice for what you like, but I don't think I'm the right guy to answer the question to be perfectly honest with you, Lucas, but I love the fact that you asked the question.

So thank you. Well, and I think that also depends on, on to your point, whether you're in a consultative sale, a competitive sale or not, right? Cause if you're up against competition, that, that cost is going to be included regardless of what decision they make. So I say, that's not my fucking responsibility to have that conversation. Right. But if it's, if they're just kicking tires, if they're trying to understand, then you can actually turn into the consultant and say, well, you do realize you're not just looking at the hardcore costs here, right? You're looking at X, Y, Z, you're probably going to have to hire somebody. So whether you're looking at me or somebody else, this stuff, and now you're the honest sales rep telling them like, it's not going to be 500 bucks.

It's going to be $30,000 for that $500 thing. Whether you look at me or somebody else. So I think, you know, you can gauge it based on that. So I agree completely. Well, like I, like you said, I think we could probably have this conversation all day cause we do for a living. Uh, and, and we, you know, we're friends anyways. So, but, uh, we're going to, I'm going to put your link on this for, so the people watching this on live and also the replay, I'm going to put that article that you wrote about neat and the details of it in there. So they can take a look at that. For those of you listening on the podcast, definitely go check out Richard and find his articles, Google them and tell Richard, tell everybody what's the easiest way to find out information about you and, and, uh, you know, the stuff you're putting out there.

Yeah, no, there are two great places. Well, three great places to find me. One is, is on the Harris consulting group.com. Right. Uh, that's an easy place. I just hate the long URL I have. I have to figure out, I might have to have a name contest or something. Um, so that's one place. Uh, I'm also the sales trainer for sales hacker. So you can always get ahold of me through sales hacker. And then obviously LinkedIn is probably the easiest and fastest. That seems to be where most people are going these days anyway. Um, those are probably the easiest ways to get ahold of me. Um, if you really want to call me, my number is 415-596-9149-596-9149. If you're an SDR and you're going to try and cold call me, bring your a game.

All right. There you go. I love it. Awesome, man. Well, it's always a pleasure talking to you as usual. Um, and, uh, yeah, hopefully people got some good nuggets out of this for everybody listening. Uh, by all means, you know, please check out the podcast. Also, Richard, and I don't think I told you this. Um, we have a Friday afternoon, uh, happy hour that we now do. So Morgan and I own the Facebook group that we're doing. So it's a group and it's a Friday happy hour. So that's where we just open it up for an hour and do a full blown Q and a. So I know, but there's like happy hour East coast. It's five 30. I'm still working. It's like, I know. Well, that's why you can watch it after the fact.

That's why you can download it and engage after the fact. So that's awesome. But, and by the way, John, you know, um, I w I wouldn't be a good friend if I didn't ask you how the Patriots are doing. Are you, are you excited? Is Des Bryant coming? Is he not coming? What are you doing? We'll see what happens. I, I, I don't, I don't take any guesses during the off season with the Patriots because all bets are off, all bets are off up until about the second or third game in the season, because they fuck around all the way through preseason. Then the first couple of games, they always shit can at least two or three of the top people. I wouldn't be surprised if, if Belichick right now is just like eat shit, uh, Gronk.

We don't want you anyways. Peace. I wouldn't be surprised. I'm a Dola being in Miami now. Yeah. I doesn't shock me at all. Like it's, it's the, the beauty of being a Patriots fan. You don't get emotionally tied to anybody. So, well, I would, there's at least one you're going to be emotionally tied to, of course, but he's going to retire on his own terms. So we'll see what happens. Okay. John, thank you so much for having me. This is as always, it's a lot of fun. It doesn't feel like work ever having a conversation with you. Thanks for having me. Thanks, bud. Talk to you soon. See you, bud. Later. Thank you. Thank you.