66: Hope is Not a Strategy and Sales Enablement with Roderick Jefferson

happy monday afternoon this is john barrows of j barrows consulting i hope you all had a fantastic weekend i had one of those weekends of doing absolutely nothing which was fantastic but that said i am super excited to have not only a good colleague of mine but a good friend of mine on today's make it happen monday roderick what's going on my friend how you doing brother i'm great jb how are you man i'm doing fantastic man so uh roderick we've known each other for how long at this point god i we're coming up on a decade now i think so yeah i mean i think because it's been it was ever it was it was the acquisition of was it radiant six i forget no it was uh jigsaw jigsaw that's right so that's right when there was a shit it was even before radiant six so it was jigsaw but um salesforce jigsaw turned it into data.com you came over with that and we we met each other and you know that was i mean that was back before enablement was really a thing right yeah and and that's really what we're going to talk about today right we're going to talk about sales enablement a couple of different angles on this one like first of all where it was where it is where is it going but also from a rep standpoint like what they should be looking at at organizations you know who invest in enablement why and also potential career path in enablement because i think this is just going to get more and more and more uh prevalent as we go um so roderick why don't you um why don't you give everybody just a little quick background what you're doing these days because i'm super excited that you're off on your own right now going out and doing the consultant so give everybody your kind of 30 seconds feel of where you're coming from now thank you before i do that i want to give props to you because you are a huge part of what actually helped me kind of jump off the ledge if you will to go ahead and hang my shingle we've been talking about this what four or five years and it finally came to fruition yeah i remember we were talking one day and you're like dude if you don't do it now you're gonna wish you did and i don't want to hear about it later in typical john barrow style yeah i do appreciate it yeah no problem man i always told you right like you know it's it's you got so much knowledge up here that it's tough to focus on one company to bring that too right because i mean kind of like you know our boy doug landis same thing like now that he's over at emergence like doug was you know he was fantastic at box at salesforce and all those different places but it's like like just for one company it almost seems a shame to increase that knowledge but not to share that knowledge to with a whole bunch of other people and you got a lot of it right thanks bro i appreciate that so real quick on 30 seconds first and foremost i'm a sales guy i am not a trainer and i know it always upsets people i don't really like trainers john and you know why i say that right not it's not personal it's like green animals you enable people personal philosophy i think enablement is something that's in integrand and interwoven into the fabric of a company and unfortunately we'll get into this unfortunately training has been labeled kind of a spot fix a one-time reactive thing in a lot of folks minds so i always want to quantify that so when i say i'm a sales guy i care to bag myself for five years um started out as vdr and john knows i got mad love for vdrs because i understand what your life is like in your role because i have done it i've dialed for dollars as well and so then moved into a uh bag carrying role did really well went to customer excuse me went to uh president's club a couple times and then realized i actually really like the process of selling and not the actual taking down of big deals i know it sounds crazy to a lot of people but i'm a process thinker and i said well what if i could take my processes and my tools and scale them across the entire branch and at that point my branch manager said well then you'd have a new job and my thing was and i give this to bdrs i love it put it in writing for me right and once i had him write write it down now we're both committed to this and so i have been very fortunate blessed over my career to be at some phenomenal companies i've either started uh grassroots or ran enablement from onboarding all the way up until the vp executive level at siebel systems network appliance business objects hp oracle salesforce and most recently marketo and that's when i had gotten to the point to where i said hey it is time to move on because at uh one of my previous lives serious decisions for those that aren't aware of serious decisions there are companies similar to forester and gartner but they've got one additional component and that is they do benchmarking and so we were benchmarked against 280 companies nike gm quaker oaks bank of america and my team was actually named sales enablement program of the year i didn't realize at the time jb now later that is the equivalent of an oscar or an emmy in the sales enablement world oh yeah i dropped the mic and i'm like i'm cool i'm done there's nothing else i can do it's time to go make some money for myself and like you said spread the love across multiple companies instead of cordon it off behind the walls of one that's me i love it man and i think that's why you and i vibe so much is that we both have that mentality of like you know because there's too many trainers out there that you and you and i both know like you can't do and teach it right so so they kind of get into sales a little bit for instance and they kind of get a taste of it and they're like oh i'm either not that good at this but i can tell people how to do this and so they get into it and i'll tell you right now there's there's i think there's other professions out there that you can get away with being kind of a talking head in the sense of going through a slide deck and understanding something else about it being able to be a theorist in a lot of other places or if you're not a practitioner it's because with sales folks if you don't know the secret handshake you're not one of us you're marketing yeah and you spin up bullshit you know you can't the whole we can't bullshit a right like exactly like i can sniff it out a million and i think i've told you this before i you know you appreciate this what i usually do and it's kind of mean but i do it on purpose is i sit in the front every time i go through a training i sit in the front and i let the trainer do that little intro whatever but then about a half an hour and i raise my hand and i say hey could you do me a favor could you give me an example of the last time that you applied whatever you're about to teach me uh teach us here and and give me a result like what happened what was the result and let's go back in the time machine right that's how you and i met right and i'll tell i'll tell the world you broke into salesforce and and okay i helped a little bit but you broke into salesforce because you came to me with the actual techniques that you teach and do you remember what i told you i don't think you're in your hand by the end of the week i'm sold we can stop talking now now we have to basketball and other stuff at that point yeah you are a practitioner not a theorist there's a lot of snake oil salesmen out there there's a lot of folks that are really giving um sales and sales enablement a bad name because they're out there projecting theories and to your point it's i'll give an old sports analogy as a coach fine here's how you do a left-hand layup you jump off your right leg you lift your left hand you roll the ball off your fingertip okay coach show me how to do it well the manual says at that point you have no credibility with me on right you can't i can't teach you something that i've never done and my thing is if i've never walked in your shoes as a bdr as a salesperson etc even as an executive how can i tell you how comfortable or uncomfortable those shoes are and what value do i bring to you yeah if i can't give you real life experiences and use cases i'm worthless to you i i think that's the one thing that both of us bring is man we've got scars we have got some scars brother a few less than i'd like but yeah a few more than i'd like more than either of us want but you know what though with every scar is a story absolutely well and that's what i think enablement really is is like is not only telling the stories but helping other people tell the stories to their customers right so so let's talk about that right because i think you you hit it on early uh you know sales enablement when you first came on board like when you said hey i want to bring i want to create a program around this and the person was like all right well you know that's a new job again back in the days it used to be really thought of as training um and it was like hey here's a trainer um it's obviously evolved quite a bit and i see it evolving quite a lot moving forward so where's where's your perspective on where it where it was kind of back 10 15 years ago where it is today and where do you see sales enablement is going um just because i'm one of the more seasoned guys with the gray now i'll go back 25 minutes for you there you go when i first made the flip and it was pure sales training it was let me show you how to do things the way that i do it and we didn't call it best practices it was just okay i got this process and it worked for me right and that quickly evolved because only for so long are people going to say well great this is how you did it but what about everyone else that's doing it and how's that scale and who's doing it better than you i'm always the first person to say hey i'd use my uncle's quote and i've said it to you a number of times if you know one more thing than everyone else in the room you're the subject matter expert that only lasts for so long because somebody's going to learn two things and three things and so on and that's been the evolution of sales training to sales enablement i think the biggest shift that i've seen is it's gone from being spot one time reactive um almost self scribe to really becoming sales partner now and i go back to what i said earlier woven into the fabric of the company and i'll give you an example when i was running enablement in corporate i even had our sales enablement folks interview prospective new hires new hire sellers because one no one joined my team unless they had carried a bag in some capacity so they could talk the talk and they knew the secret handshake the other one is we have a completely different bs filter right and different set of lenses and third we're looking at long-term propensity of success not only in quota but are they going to be able to and be open to grasping the new change because ultimately we're change management agents that's really what we do and so when we get to that point just this is a final piece jb where i've seen the biggest changes we're becoming partners i call us the translators of dialects and languages and what i mean is we i don't expect product marketing product management marketing uh product marketing etc to speak each other's languages that's our job i love it translate that into sales take it out to the field because i still go out and even when i was in corporate i'd go out and meet with customers sure and find out what they need come back and then synthesize it and then translate it into german french spanish etc that the other different lines of business speak i think that's the biggest change right there i love that because i always talk about how there's a huge you know and and this kind of helps with the sales marketing divide right because there's a huge difference between marketing messaging and sales ready messaging oh absolutely and unfortunately marketers so i come from a background of marketing that was my first degree right so i kind of have a health i have a healthy respect for marketing but unfortunately marketing thinks they know what sales needs and they stuff it down sales throat and then sales never uses it and never gives any feedback of why right but that translation and i'll give you the easiest example i can ever give to to help people understand the difference between sales versus marketing messaging marketing messaging is stuff like on average our clients see a 32 up to a 55 whatever where sales language is no no we showed this company in your industry how to do this and i and you fit a similar profile i want to talk to you about it right bingo you nailed it you hit on something earlier though like as you were explaining that that got my attention that i think is really important which is the whole idea because right now enablement's blowing up but oh so is now everybody knows coaching for instance is the biggest value add any manager can do or whatever it is but i think now i'm starting to hear and see a lot more around real coaching about what is coaching versus conversations and that all that other stuff but coaching is only so good based on is this person coachable so you said you talked about like how your team was being interjected into the hiring process how do you identify on whether a rep is actually coachable what were some of the things that you did to say yeah this rep gets it like this is somebody who they might not have the skills right now but they have the right attitude they have the right mentality and they are coachable how would you be able to determine uh identify that of a potential new buyer here it's a simple process three-step process listen learn and lead first of all i'll ask questions and i'll sit back and listen and don't ask questions for the sake of being able to interject ask the question so you can actually learn from this individual so it starts with a set of questions of understanding who they are what they are and what their goals are and how they got here because i don't know too many people that majored in sales we all kind of fell into it one way or other and so i want to understand what is the genesis and the impetus for them wanting to do this job and is this job just a stepping stone to another job or an inlet into the company that a lot of people do right so that's one piece the second piece is talking about what success looks like from the successful sales folks that i've talked to and that i've interviewed inside of a given company and watching the reaction when they find out how much work it takes to be good okay because as my shirt says hope is not a strategy and a lot of people coming in and going i hope i get the right job i hope i get the right manager i hope that i'm in a great organization i hope that i'm successful i hope that i get quota i don't know winners rock stars don't hope they plan and then they execute so i told them the execution plan and i watched their reaction on whether they're actually open to putting in that kind of work and we've interviewed enough now you know when somebody's bs and you and they interview well right and the third piece is i talked to them about what we're going to do along with them in enablement and what the expectations are and also what's the with them for them what's in it for them and where they're going to get out of it and again it's about kind of getting a feel for their reaction and also the kind of questions that they come back with as a follow-up or not yep yeah i think uh so when i used to do this with when i was at thrive my first company before i was in enablement i was just a manager but i realized how important because this is this is actually i got this from um from jack welsh right ge jack welsh uh for all those kids out there go look them up greatest greatest ceo of all time absolutely amazing so i worked so you know i worked for him for a few months but before that my company thrive got we got to about 50 people and i remember like my biggest and for those of you who are listening out there who are going to start companies or go that 50 is around a 50 people is around a frustrating part for a business owner or somebody who starts because this is what happens right usually like two three four five people start the company everybody's all fired up passionate about everything right and then 20 30 people still people you know fired up whatever it is around almost exactly 50 people the 51st person you hire is just there for a job you know what i mean so so what i did was and i i always used to get frustrated because i was like why aren't these people as bought in and i i've come down off the mountain like everybody needs to be an a player i disagree with that because you have a team full of a players it ends up ripping apart each other at the theme at the seams you need b players you need people who are just going to show up and do their job and do it well yeah so i remember asking jack welsh i was like he came to like a you know boston works you know seminar just sits there and he answers questions right so i got up 800 people i was like hey jack 50 people that 51st person like doesn't have the passion and my question was this and it was a it was a stupid question but and he told me it was uh i said yeah well he's another bostonian right so so i was like jack you've talked a lot about passion and all this other stuff i go look we've hired 50 at the 51st person that person just doesn't seem to have the passion that i do like how do you instill your passion on somebody else and he said you're wrong he's like you're looking at it all wrong you can't instill your passion on anybody else you have to hire passion yep and that changed my entire philosophy around hiring instead of hiring for skill background and ability i hired for coachability passion and drive because i can teach that other stuff and so the way i figured out some of kid was coachable was i would ask them questions my typical interview questions whatever then i would give them a scenario to do a cold call thing and i would say what did you used to sell say they used to sell cell phones or anything whatever they were most comfortable selling i was like cool i'm a i'm a target audience for you go in the other room cold call me and all you want to do is get a meeting right so we go through that little role play i'd come back i'd give them feedback and then i'd give them tell them what you did well and what you didn't then i'd send them back and i'd have them do another cold call and now it was to cold call me as thrive networks and all they were trying to do was get a meeting with me for it services and it didn't matter if they were awesome on that second one it mattered is if if they took what i told them and applied it to that second car they coachable right and that's why i always say it's listen learn then lead yeah the problem is a lot of folks want to go to that third first i love it so let's not flip it over on the other side i'm a rep right now so as as employee as company people we're looking for people to bring on that are coachable that we can put into a system and make sure right now our generation's off compared to this generation right i don't want you but when you like for me when i was in like sales it was give me a territory tell me how much money i can make and please get the fuck out of my way right i don't need this team building shit i don't need a badge i just leave me alone let me go right today's world totally different right yeah well he's a factor obviously but a huge factor is whether a rep or or forget about our sales rep and in general an employee feels like they're being taken care of by the company they're being invested in those type of things yeah they need to be valued and invested in it absolutely great so if you're a rep out there say you're a 22 and and this isn't i don't think a lot of things that sales like reps think about as far as like the enablement department of the company right when they look at a job they look at is it a cool company do i believe in their product maybe you know and can i get paid right i think enablement should start to be a part of that equation as far as people looking at other companies so if i'm a rep how should i be looking at and maybe it's a startup company doesn't have a lot of money or whatever it is but how should i be looking at them and evaluating them from a continuous learning and improvement standpoint what should i be looking for i think there's a few things to look for uh first and foremost i always look at is this a product-driven company is it a service-driven company is it a customer-driven company or is an engineering-driven company because you know that every one of those i just said has a completely different agenda yeah and what i need to know and the reason i always look at you need to understand where your personality fits right this is the engineering-driven company that's not you don't go there i don't care how cool the logo is right and i always look at it from the perspective of how easy is it or was it for me to get an informational interview with someone in that company there you go yeah right you you've got a ton of social media in your hand you can touch almost anybody on the planet and you know as well as i do jb the most non-threatening question on the planet is can i get you to talk about yourself i.e.

an informational interview right if it's easy to crack that that says something about the company if you get no response that also says something about the culture of the company because at 22 and what i wish somebody would have told me at 22 that i now know oh 30 years later is one of the most important factors of a company is not the logo what they sell or who their customers are that is clearly intangible one of the most important things about a company is will i fit into their culture not are they what i'm looking for but will i fit into their culture yep because corporate and and for the folks listening at 22 i'm going to say something and it's going to sound harsh but you need to hear it i'm going to keep it 100 would you one corporate america is here to make a profit not friends they're not hiring you because they like you and secondly you have to get everything you can out of a corporation from a learning perspective from a value perspective from a compensation perspective because believe me the moment that you walk out of that door or if they know ahead of time there's already a job wreck that's being released to replace you so it has to be for you everyone says it's got to be mutually equitable it's not going to be it's not because of the america is like vegas they are all the house is always going to win always going to win he is that you get enough little nibbles so that and i'll give you it in a gambling analogy like the old vegas days give me enough to keep me there yeah and keep me satisfied to hang around and and of course i'm gonna have a couple drinks along the way right yep look at this i look at corporate america the very same way give me enough to feel valued validated and compensated at a level that i feel comfortable it is commiserate to what i'm giving to the company yep if that's not happening wrong place yeah no i agree i think that's i don't think enough sales reps interview the company i well i think enough senior reps like you and me like when we're if we were to ever interview for another job like it's on the flip side like i'm interviewing you yeah yeah it sounds arrogant but do i want to work with you not do you guys want me well and also by the way one of the most frustrating things for me as a former hiring manager was when the rep didn't ask any questions i actually use that as a huge negative like right say you interviewed well and you went through that process and i flipped it back to you and and so what questions you got for me and you had none like that was a huge like okay never mind i'm done with you yeah because sales especially a sales role sales is ultimately all about staying curious right and if you didn't get enough out of the conversation and to glean a few questions or didn't prepare ahead of time that lets me also know about your prep towards self absolutely so so let's talk about so i i i think looking for enablement what the client company's philosophy is on on enablement looking for what happens after my quote-unquote onboarding and how else am i engaged moving forward or all the super important things but let's say there's those reps out there that that the company hasn't invested in enablement they do kind of a one-off training every once in a while but whatever if you were that 22 24 25 year old kid out there you know nothing bothers me more than asking like oh well where do my leads come from or what what what do you invest in me because i'm you know but like so let's flip the script and say okay proactively as a as a sales rep what could you do free of charge or even maybe spending a few bucks if your company is maybe legit you like your company you like your boss but they're just not investing you as a trade like from a continuous improvement standpoint what are some of the things that you should be doing uh that you could be doing to help improve yourself on a consistent basis low-key guerrilla marketing honestly make yourself a visible presence and a subject matter expert on something don't try to be the jack of all trades figure out what you're doing really well and then start sharing sharing that and the best thing you can do is make leadership your megaphone let them market you don't market yourself because then it comes off as oh this person's just trying to be seen right go to if you have a mentor if you have a sponsor go to them and say hey can you help me amplify this i've been really good at it it's working well and i really personally want to share it with my my team the office with our company what's the best way to get this out right and from me personally i'd say um start getting a part of team meetings and carving out a little piece having your manager carve out a little piece and say hey this is what xyz person did really well i'm gonna have him or her share this with you on how it's going right the other piece is having them market not just across but market up for you so if you're in for example you're in the west region there's still your central and there's your east region have your manager say you know what this is working really good over here you guys should take a peek at this and have them talk to their peers about you and start doing those things another thing is we've got social media now i know there's a lot of video out there of folks talking about how good they are that's not what i'm saying find some things that are working really well and start putting that out on facebook excuse me on link on linkedin video native video and say hey and i always tell people explain what it is and the value of what you're about to do as opposed to why i'm telling you this which is very different yeah right but get it out there and start getting the name out if you've got folks in your network that can help you that are connected to others say leaders inside your company have that person talk to that leader on your behalf yeah right and the key is have others amplify you but make sure you have a plan on and there's also value the last part john is everything you do has to be time bound and measurable there has to be metrics to it otherwise you're hoping that it works hey i did this perfect example and i'll just give a personal one we were in one company we were able to dream trim time to first close for new hires from 88 to 54 days 30 and in transversely that means you're getting more revenue that means that people are ramping up faster that also means that you're leading to to happier employees when you can have those hard line metrics that's enablement totally yeah and i think that and i think that goes to the point of like if you think this is a career for you so i think continuous improvement you should always be focused on learning something new on a regular basis but also for you internally like you said you're a process guy right like outlining your process and excelling at your process because the key of enablement is being able to teach everybody else how you do what you know to have some consistency you can't have a rock star teaching people like i always say with picasso right picasso's my favorite artist i was never you know a cubism blows my mind there's no way that i could ever become picasso but if but if i took a paint by numbers class and they said john put yellow there orange there red there and allowed me to mix the colors together a little bit like i could come pretty damn close and i think that's what you need to be you don't need to be a script by number say exactly the same thing but you need to have some structure to it so everybody's following a similar playbook but until you outline what yours is and then apply it like you're not going to be able to teach anybody else how to do it right there's one other thing that just came to mind that is um ask people that have done this already ahead of you and that are smarter you at doing so an example is there's something for that those out there that are not aware there's something called the sales enablement society and what that is is and i happen to be one of the the founding members that happens to be an organization that we're trying to build up consistent nomenclature processes tools explanations etc around sales enablement for people like yourself that are just coming in and you know there's hundreds of years collectively of best practices and actual practical application of these things and in every region in uh the globe as a matter of fact now the sales enablement society is there and don't recreate the wheel yeah don't and i got so i got one more question because i think this leads into something that is that i'm sure you get a lot i get a lot like somebody sees me do a training and they then inevitably at least two or three reps come after me afterwards and say hey john i'm kind of curious i i really love what you do and i think i want to move in that direction to be a trainer to be in a you know somebody in enablement so first of all how do you know that enablement's a career for you outside of like sales or marketing or something like that how do you how did you know that this was something that i i it's it's bigger than just me as an individual and then um what what are some of the steps you'd recommend those people taking in the short term to kind of really vet out whether this is something that they want to build their career around great questions um let's take the first one how did i know first and foremost i had been i had excelled and done everything that i personally wanted to do in my role in sales okay again i that i personally want to do now there's always going to when you're a rock star we know john they're going to want to move you in a direction either upward into sales leadership or across into another role never let anyone else drive your career because no one has the best interest in it that you do so set your goals on what you want to do in whatever role you're in now and when you've attained all those goals then start looking i always take a 24 month perspective with an 18 month recap to see if i'm going to be able to meet my goals in that next six months to me and it could be 12 months 18 months whatever it is the first one once you've achieved everything you wanted to now the second question how do you migrate into it it starts with those informational interviews as i talked about earlier because in every company sales enablement means something different and is a different role yeah so in some it could be heavy on the upside does that fit your personality and where you want to take your career on others it's it's all about change management and others it's still a lot of stand and deliver type and so it's what do you want to do and where do you want to go ultimately i'm not talking about what's your three to five year plan no nothing like that it's if i were to move right now what would i want to do what i did keep the whiteboard and i'll show you right now i keep that whiteboard up on the wall i've segmented it into three pieces right and this is how i i moved into my business similar to someone migrating three distinct pieces one what am i really good at two um what is it that i love to do and three what would pay me to do yep right and and moving towards enablement i had to look at those three things and go wow there's more over here there's less over here but the balance will really point and i mentor a lot of millennials as you know john and i always tell them the same thing um you've got to do what makes you happy because you'll find six to eight jobs in your life your career will find you yeah enablement if it's what you're meant to do you'll see the process piece coming out of those interviews those conversations going to the sales enablement society meetings going to various conferences like atd and those kind of things um and you'll go wow something will just flip the switch and that light will turn on for you and it's enablement's a funny thing if the light does not turn on for you right away it's not meant for you well yeah it's like building a quarterback john you can't create a quarterback it's innate you can give him the skills but you're not going to make a tom brady and you know how hard that was for me to say by the way i appreciate it so make that you can get someone that's going to be good but if the light bulb doesn't turn on for you right away after you've done your interviews you've done your your informational pieces you've gone to a couple of conferences you've talked to some of the best and the best you connected with people on social media and found out different approaches and philosophies it's not meant for you if you get jazzed over that jump in with both feet and don't be afraid don't wait in the pool jump in yeah i love it man it's just funny because last thing i'll say is when i i never thought of enablement as something i was going to do and i got the opportunity to and i remember vividly i i i was part of my interview for basho i had to train them on something didn't know what i was so i was like all right i picked something but i didn't know how to train so i went to old school you'll love this i went to oh my goodness i went to barnes and noble and picked up because i didn't know what i didn't know right so so i was literally a dummy and and there's a there's a section in here that says what trainers do it's on the first page and i read through every single one of these things and i was like damn i love all that yeah and i was like it was to your point it was like a light bulb that went off on me i was like apparently i'm supposed to be a trainer because everything about what they describe what the responsibilities and that type of stuff were fit exactly with what i was truly not that i just like to do but i loved doing and um and so it was something where it kind of that light bulb hit me pretty quick and i took to it like a fish to water so here's a couple things one i equate enablement to something like uh finding your major in college we find yeah yeah and then we pursue it in college or university right now i'll also give you a flip side enablement is a lot like college and marriage and what i mean is it's a great institution but it's not meant for everybody yeah and it takes some work it's a lot of work yeah because you think about um things like our our presentations we do in the hours we put in in pre-prep you think about putting together a workshop by the time we step into a room for a workshop or we jump on something like this guess what our work is done yeah once you say good morning everybody welcome it's a moving stream i don't care what you do you cannot change the course of what's going to happen that day and and as experienced guys john um would you agree that if something can happen bad it's going to happen at the worst time in front of the biggest audience possible yep it's about how you deal with that that tells me whether or not you're built for enablement yeah absolutely cool well like we said in the beginning man i think we could have this conversation for another six hours so we could you and i could just chill regardless but uh but we're gonna cut it short here probably have you on again here in the next few months but uh roderick tell tell everybody what you're what what is rj what are you guys doing now and and who are you looking for and how can people uh get in touch with you sure so roderick jefferson associates we are a consulting firm and we're focused on kind of small to medium-sized businesses usually in that 10 to 500 million dollar range and how do i know that how do you know if you need us or not well there's a few things first of all companies that are in hyper growth mode secondly companies that may have just purchased a um learning platform a learning core mind tickle or something of that sort third companies that are having problems um with their churn of sellers right or companies that have that senior manager or maybe that director level enablement resource in place but not at the vp level yet and you're looking for some best practices and looking for some tools and templates to get to that next level to steal and expand your organization or even establish a sales enablement function cool so and by the way companies if anybody's out there listening the sooner you can invest in enablement the better because you don't want to build your business on a house of cards because eventually it's going to punch you in the face you're going to realize you're going to need something and then you're going to be playing catch up and it's not easy to play catch up in this world so for anybody out there even thinking about where they need to be from an enablement standpoint or when to invest give roderick a call roderick what is it roderick jefferson on linkedin those places too on linkedin it's um roderick jefferson associates you can find me on twitter at the voice of rod you can find us at the website at roderickjefferson.com and john there's one other piece to the business and that is also leadership development and executive coaching that's right yep which is which is yet i mean even almost even more important right because of leadership and everybody in coaching to it that nothing somebody like you and i could do to make sure that this stuff sticks right absolutely all right my friend well as always pleasure uh tell the wife and family i said hello and uh i'll probably i'm actually going to be out in san francisco this week so if you're going to be in the city let me know because i'm going to be there monday tuesday wednesday uh training a bunch of people so i'll be in the city all week and unfortunately i'm in phoenix this week starting tomorrow but i will see you in boston in a couple of weeks yes indeed all right my friend you have a great week all right you say man looking forward to catching up thanks again jv talk soon and i will see you in the city of jv talk soon and i will 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