73: John Barrows is interviewed by Richard Harris

According to Gong.io's research and analysis of over 90,000 cold calls, they found that by starting the conversation off with the reason for my call is increases your likelihood of getting a meeting by 2.1 times. So think about that for a second. Just by starting with the reason for my call is you are twice as likely to get a meeting than if you start off with something like touching base or checking in or I'm sorry to bother you or any of those weak introductions. The reason for my call is a very powerful introduction and it significantly increases your conversion rate but also your confidence and that's part of it because when you are calling to touch base or check in you are inherently weak with your approach.

If you are calling with a reason then you have a lot more confidence. So let's talk about what those reasons could be. They could be some triggers or some things you found on their website like you opened up a new office, they launched a new product or whatever that is or it could be more persona based where you're working with other CFOs in the healthcare industry to help them drive these type of results. Or it could even be a case study of a client that's very similar to them. So for instance the reason for my call today is we're working with another company in your industry and we just showed them how to drive these type of results with our solution and you fit a very similar profile so that's why I want to talk to you.

So there's all sorts of reasons for your calls but you have to have one. So now let's talk about how that fits into a call script or a voicemail. For a live call usually I start off with "Hi, thanks for taking my call, do you have a few moments?" And I usually get "Well who is this, what do you want?" This is John with J Barrels Consulting and the reason for my call today is I was on your website, I noticed you're launching a few new products and going into some new markets and I was wondering how you're leveraging sales training to help make sure that those products and those new offices and new locations are getting off on the right foot. What's the best way to get some time on your account to have that conversation?

It's that simple. Now voicemail, this is probably one of the hardest things we ask anybody to do in the training. We don't start our voicemails off with "Hi, this is John Barrels with J Barrels Consulting" because 90% of the time when somebody hears that they delete and hang up because they either know you and they think they know you or they don't know you and they don't care. And so our voicemails start with "Hi Sarah, the reason for my call today is I noticed you're launching some new products and I'm going into a few new markets here and I wanted to talk to you about how sales training can help leverage those new offices and those products to hit the ground running so you can make sure that you're driving the most amount of revenue possible.

Could you call me back at 617-529-7271? By the way, this is John Barrels with J Barrels Consulting, 617-529-7271. It's not easy to do, but I'll tell you when you leave your contact information at the end and you have a reason that you start with, what you're doing is forcing them to listen to the value proposition. And if you screw up halfway through, you can hang up and they have no idea who you are. So try it out, see what happens. But regardless, make sure you have a reason for your call. Make it happen. Hey everybody, what's going on? This is John Barrels with Make it Happen Monday. Hopefully y'all had a fantastic weekend. The podcast today, we're going to do something a little bit different.

I'm bringing on another repeat guest. I think for the first time, I think Richard is going to be the first second time guest that we have here. Actually, no, I think we've got maybe one more, but Richard's always been on the top of the list here. And we're going to have Richard actually interview me this time. Topic of sales training. Richard and I have been working together for how long now, Richard? Five or six years, maybe seven, because you helped me get my start in the consulting side when sort of the regular world spit me up and chew me out. Yeah. And it was always one of the, a lot of people, actually a lot of people ask me like, Hey, how do you do what you do? You know, and you know, I'm thinking about doing it.

What do you think? And you know, I always give advice, but Richard's one of the ones who took that advice and ran with it. And now he's crushing it over at the Harris Consulting Group. So looking forward to this one. This is going to be some interesting questions about me. Apparently he's talked to my wife, so he's gotten a little dirt on me, which is going to be interesting. I don't know where this is going to go, but we'll just have some fun with it. See where it goes. So Richard, the floor is yours. Thank you, John. I appreciate it. And as you always know, I appreciate all the work you've done, all the help you've given me over the last few years and giving me that advice. And much like you, when people call me, I give them the same advice and I tell them the story about how you helped me out.

And so I just want to pay it forward. So, um, so for today, I, I came up with this idea, uh, cause I think it's always fun to listen to podcasts, but do we ever really get a chance to know the person on the other side who's owning and hosting it? So I'm going to go way back in the time machine a little bit and we're going to see where this takes us to sales training, right? So I don't know if people, you know, everybody knows you're from Boston, but where are you really from? Are you from? I'm from Bedford, Massachusetts. I grew up in Bedford, which is right between Lexington and Concord where, uh, Paul Revere ran through that whole, that whole thing. Got it. Okay. And were any brothers or sisters or sisters?

I have a sister who's nine years older than me. Uh, lives out here in California actually. Okay, cool. And so growing up, were you guys close, competitive? Were you the pain in the ass little brother? I was the pain in the ass. I was definitely the pain in the ass little brother. I mean, she was nine years older than I was a, I was a happy surprise. Um, my parents, uh, were not expecting me. Um, and, uh, now that I have a daughter who's, she just turned eight, there's no fucking way anybody in their right mind would have a kid after like on purpose, nine years after one. So, um, so with that, but my sister was more like a, a friend than a sister. We never really had like the brother sister rivalry, but I was a royal pain in the ass.

Um, you know, I'd be the one when she would come home from high school with her boyfriend. Like I'd be, you know, looking in the window, I'd be doing that type of stuff. So I was pretty, I was definitely annoying and very protective of my sister, but we had a pretty good relationship. That's great. That's great. But just out of curiosity, what does she do for a living? If you don't mind, if she's okay, she's good. No, she's awesome. Uh, she, uh, she's, um, a social worker and, uh, she peace core went out to Ghana, Africa for two years. Uh, now she's a social worker helping, um, helping people with kind of mental issues get, you know, assimilated into society and those types of things. So, which is, which is a little bit like training, right?

Like believe me as a sales trainer, you know, we're helping people with their mental issues and that's not to make light of people with severe or real issues. I want to be conscious of everybody in the world today, but, uh, totally. There's a psych, there's definitely a psychology component to sales training about getting people to make habit changes to do things without, you know, like, as you know, like a lot of sales training is an event, right? And then three months later, it's like, you know, nothing ever changes. So how can we work with people to get them to change? And there's a lot of psychology around that. So, and I want to come back to the psychology of sales, but again, just sort of going through your history a little bit, if you think back to your childhood or teenage years and those things, were you a sales kid?

Were you, were you always, you know, did your mom, would your mom say, Oh, he's going to be a salesperson or a lawyer? Was it, was it that kind of a, she actually, you know what? So I was for some strange reason, I was always money motivated. Um, whether I was sales motivated or not, I don't know, but I was money motivated. And I remember when it was, uh, I was like, I think it was third or fourth grade. We had like a career day where somebody from Boston, one of the weather forecasters came in or one of the newscasters came in and just did, Hey, this is what it's about. And it's a really great career and blah, blah, blah. And she was like, what questions do you have? And me being the jackass that I was my first, I raised my hand.

I was like, how much money do you make? And she was, I mean, horribly offended. She was just like, that is absolutely not your business. That's an inappropriate question. And then I'm sitting there, I'm like, you're telling me to get into this career. I'm like, I need to know how much money I can make in that career so I can actually make a living. So I didn't think it was offensive, but now I look back and it definitely was. So basically what you're telling me is in your first job interview, you asked about salary first. I don't think so. I don't think so. No, because that was different. So I got, I eased into sales kind of like everybody else, you know, I didn't even think of it as a career.

And then I, you know, it was kind of event marketing that was sales, whatever. But going back to, you know, me, my, my mom, actually, she was a career counselor. She quit her job when I was born and started her own company. So that's kind of where my entrepreneurial spirit came in. I think she, she worked at Wang laboratories, which I don't know if you remember, but that was like most people, you know, most kids don't have any idea, but Wang was the shit back in the day. Like if you had a job at Wang, like that was, whoa, that would be like Salesforce today type of thing. And she literally quit that job to stay home with me so that I could have the same experience as my sister did. And she, uh, she, you know, so I, early on she had an office in the house, in our living room.

We had a coffee machine, which no other kid had. So I was super cool. And, um, and yeah, and it was funny when I had the opportunity to become a trainer at Basho, I called her up and I was like, Hey ma, I got this opportunity to be a trainer. Um, you know, it's kind of weird. I'd like your, and she just started laughing and she goes, John Michael, that's what she calls her. She goes, uh, she goes, I never wanted to tell you what to do with your career. She goes, but if there's anybody I thought that would be great from a teaching and a training standpoint, she's like, you're it. And I was like, huh? So, cause I had never even considered that. Um, and then I picked up a training for dummies book and no shit read the first 10 characteristics of what it's great to be a trainer.

And every one of them lined up directly with what I was doing. So with what I'd love to do. So combining what I loved about sales, which is really my passion. And then all of a sudden the connection of training and I can train sales to sales reps. That's where it took off. When, when did you get that pat? Like, when did you go from, I guess, what was your genesis from, Hey, I think I'm going to like sales too. I do like sales too. I love sales. Like where, what was that? Was that something that happened in high school? Was that after college? Was that what I think it was, I think it was really as my, as I evolved into sales, you know, and I started to see the, you know, the difference that selling something could make to somebody else, you know, DeWalt power tools.

I mean, as, as kind of odd as it sounds, you know, watching a, so my first job was DeWalt and they put it under event marketing. They put it under sales, but it was really event marketing. My job was to drive around a construction sites, give away free tools to construction workers. I didn't even have a quota. So what I would do is I would go to, I mean, a lot of people went to the foreman directly to try to sell. Right. Hey, buy a pallet of fucking DeWalt. Right. And I'm like, well, I know about these tools. We were educated about these tools, but I don't know as much as the workers do. Right. So my first thing when I would come on to a job site was I'd just sit down with the guys using the fucking tools and I'd, I'd just watch how they worked.

I'd ask them questions, genuinely curious. And I was like, Hey, have you ever tried the DeWalt version of that Makita drill or whatever it was? And they'd be like, well, no. I'd be like, well, here, try this. I'm like, I want you to, could you do me a favor? Like, could you use this? I'm going to give it to you for free for a couple of weeks. I'll come back in a couple of weeks. But would you mind if I just asked you some questions? And they're like, yeah, sure. So I would come back and they would educate me on the differences of the real differences, not the fucking grind, you know, the gears and you know, what do you mean real? Like what did they see as the real difference? Like the end user giving you this customer success feedback that you need to know, right?

Exactly. Like why it was better from a torque standpoint and how they used it. So it didn't hurt their hand or when they were had the drill over their head, the difference or even small shit, like, you know, because of back then that was DeWalt when they were really have started pushing the cordless stuff, right? Where like the drill that would sit up, like stand up because of the battery, like some battery, some batteries are too small. So it would sit and it would fall over. Whereas some batteries, the 18 volts would stand and they would love that just because they could then put it down and it wouldn't have to wobble all over the place, right? Small stuff like that and how they used it and why it made their back feel better if they did it this way and why this one actually helped them do their job faster.

And so I learned all that shit. And then I would go to the foreman and with all that knowledge be like, hey, by the way, I just was talking to three or four year, right? And they told me that, you know, they're having a little bit of a challenge with this tool because it makes this, it hurts their disc, that, but there, and at DeWalt though, they said this and they were like, well, no shit. It's like, hey, would you mind, you know, maybe next time picking up a DeWalt, you know, vat of DeWalt tools? Sure. And then I would come back a month later and I would literally get construction guys thanking me. Hey, thanks for getting my foreman to fucking dump those piece of shit, whatever thing. And I, so I could see how sales could make a difference when done right.

Um, and, and that's where I started to fall in love with it. Uh, and, and cause I always say, you hear me say this all the time, sales when done right, it's the greatest profession in the world. When done wrong, it's the worst. Um, I was never, even though I was always money motivated, I was always way more motivated by making sure that I was doing the right thing and selling the right. Cause I would not take a commission check for it. I would never sell something that I didn't believe in. Um, and so that's where I started falling in love with it. And then Xerox copiers, that's where I got my real sales. Did you really have to like go to the top of the building and knock on the door and work your way down?

Yep. That was like that old school story is true. One Ashburton place. I would go to, uh, my, so not only did I sell copiers, which is the definition of a fucking commodity. I sold copiers to the government. So secretary of state, treasury, those types of things. Right. And, and they were all in one building. There's one Ashburton place, Boston, Massachusetts. And I would walk from the office at 150 federal street to one Ashburton place every day through, through, uh, downtown crossing Boston, start at the top, shake hands, kiss babies, shake hands, kiss babies. And I, you know, that's where I learned relationship selling because I had a territory where there was five reps in three years churning through that territory.

And, uh, and I realized very quickly, I couldn't just go in there and sell a copier because they'd look at me like, who the fuck are you? You're not going to be here in the next six months anyways. So beat it. Right. And I'm like, Oh shit. So I had to learn how to develop relationships, but also do it in a way that wasn't a waste of time. So how did you do that? Like, that's a, cause I think that happens a lot to sales today is like, Hey, we're going to put you in this territory. And you know, you do, they sort of, whether they hire like the expert and you're, Hey, we need you to resurrect this territory or they're like, Hey, let's put fresh blood in there. And someone who doesn't know, I'm actually working with a guy at IBM, the sales rep.

He's actually on his first call today. We were coaching, I was coaching him yesterday. How do you start that? Right. How do you rebuild? Like, is it literally, Hey, I'm John. I promise I'm going to be here a while. And then in three months you can come back. No, it's you earn it. Right. So you, you do the little things of you got to learn the business. And this is the problem right now is that most of the time, especially in the tech community, the level of patience is very, very thin for, for, from there is a level. Like I've yet to see this level of patience that you speak of. Right. Right. Patience was yesterday. Well, and especially from the management team, right? Yes, exactly. Put people in these territories and they expect them to produce overnight, even though they've been shredded for the past five years.

And so, or the executives have never been in sales and don't know what to do anyway. And so I, you know, I think early on, maybe the Boston in me or whatever, but I always had challenger sale mentality, not only with customers, but, but with, with my managers. Like this is why I'm not in corporate America. Right. Yeah. You and I had this discussion. So it's another podcast of how we don't play nice in the sandbox with others. And I remember my boss. So I would say, okay, I'm not going to close, you know, I would close whatever, like renewals would come up and I would flip a machine here or there, but none like, and I had the big fucking machines, like the million dollar multimillion dollar secretary of state treasury cranking out millions of checks and stuff like that.

And so I just sat and I learned their business. I learned their work throughs. I would go in, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go in, I wouldn't, you know, I'd go into their office and I'd say hi, but then I'd go to the copiers and I'd look through the click through rates. I'd understand their workflows. I would, and, and, you know, and I would do whatever they needed me to do, but I wouldn't push. And I remember like about six months in my manager was like, I hadn't sold very much and my managers, and I had gotten put in that territory because I did so well. I was the top of the class with the, with the onboarding program, even though they put me in territory while I was in that onboarding program. Usually you go through eight weeks sales training at Xerox, then you get an apprenticeship, then you get your territory for whatever reason, because of the way I hired or, you know, that I interviewed or something like that.

They put me in territory while I was going through. So I was, I kind of discounted the training. I was like, fuck it. I just got to go and do this. Right. And so my boss would look like literally, I think six months in, he, I remember him coming to me as like, you haven't sold shit in six months. Like what's this big swinging dick, you know, sales rep that we thought we brought in here. We thought you were going to fucking crush this. And I'm like, and I told him, I go back the fuck off. I'm like, you brought me in here. You've had five reps in three years in this territory. Nobody trusts Xerox anymore in this territory. Shut the fuck up and let me do my job. Right. You hired me for a reason.

And I remember he was a, you know, he was, he actually admitted one time that he was scared of me, which was, he was intimidated by me, which I was like, obviously for managers out there, never tell a rep that you're intimidated by him. First of all, that's just ridiculous. So anyways, and I'm not, I wasn't threatening. I was just doing my job and saying, leave me alone. You know what I mean? For the record, I'm from Georgia, right? I know you think you're not threatening and I know you're my friend, but you have some tendencies, my friend. I'm direct. I'm direct. And so I, but then nine months in and cause I was, I was about to be put on PIP, right? I was about to put on my performance review.

I was on my way out the door, but then nine months in, I had learned so much about all my top accounts that I ended up mapping out a plan for every one of them. And I came to each one of them with a booklet of, here's your click-through rates. Here's your workflows. Here's what you're spending now on your copiers. If we flip you over to the, from the analog to the digital, you'll be able to save this. And from a L, you know, total cost of ownership standpoint, within two years, it pays itself back and dah, dah, dah, dah. Right. And because I hadn't pushed anything down their throat, because I had taken the, let me see if I can, what I can do to help here. And then came to them with a plan, not questions, you know, Hey, what do you need?

But Hey, here's what I know. All of a sudden they were like, Holy shit. Yes. And I'd signed like three massive contracts. And I remember walking into my boss's office about nine months in dropping them on his desk. I'm like, you happy now? And he was like, Holy shit. And I'm like, do you get it? And that was where he flipped on me and said, okay, okay. You know, obviously you know what you're doing. Uh, I'll give you a little bit more leeway to do this stuff. And that's where kind of, I, I want to, I want to pause for a second. I want to recap on two things I've learned from you. One is that, uh, John Barrows with the DeWalt tools, uh, invented the 14 day free trial because that's how, you know, like that's, that was SAS before SAS existed, right?

There you go. That was the first one. And then the other one, I think from Xerox, and by the way, to any copier salespeople that are out there, uh, kudos to you, please, like seriously, uh, keep grinding. Um, but what I really listened to was you made an important distinction to say, Hey, I want to understand what your workflow looks like. I want to understand how you're doing business. And then if there's an opportunity for us to change something that's for the better, I'll present it and that's okay. Right. Like very, very sort of, uh, just conversational, right? Like you, you, as you said, you did your research, you did your homework, you looked at how people were doing things and you did the same thing even with DeWalt.

That was still your approach was, well, let me just understand what you're doing now before we even talk about what I do, because I don't even know if what I do works or it's going to matter to you. And, uh, and if anybody's been through your training or my training, like discovery is the key, right? Like it's, it's, and I've been saying this lately is that I really don't think objection handling exists. I think it's just better discovery and the better to discover whatever you do, the fewer objections you have. Right. And so, well, objectives, uh, I'll pause there. I think objection handling with qualifications, I'll give you an example, an objection handling technique is the clarification technique.

Yes. Which is when somebody is like, I don't have budget. What do you mean you don't have budget? Do you, that, does that mean you don't have any money at all? Does it, or does that mean this isn't a budgeted thing or you're spending money in other areas that you think is more important? Right. Discovery. You've got to ask some questions. Right. Exactly. So totally, totally agree. Totally agree. So I think that's great. Um, so, so that's sort of where you went, right? So that's where you got started. And I think, um, I don't want to go through your whole, your whole other business work to Staples, whatever. How did you connect with Basho? How did you, I know you were done with the business you had that you sold to Staples.

If people don't know that, go find six other podcasts where God tells that story. Um, but then you got into Basho, which is, you know, the why you, why you now and the MJ Hoffman stuff. And you know, I know he, he really sort of helped mentor you in many ways like you've done for me. Um, where did that connection even exist? How did that come about? I took the training. So when I was at Thrive, my first company, 25 years old, uh, took every training, Sandler, Miller, Hyman, Taz, then all of it. And I always, I have made the mistake early on because I was so young and didn't know what the fuck I was doing that I figured, Hey, one of these methodologies, they've obviously figured it out. They created a whole methodology around this.

Right. And I would go to like, and I'm not digging on any of these because they all have their work. Um, but I would go to them and I would say, okay, some of that was good, but a lot of that was bullshit. Right. And, and so, and then I'd be like, okay, well, Sandler, like some of that stuff, but the whole man, and then I'd be like, all right, Miller, maybe Miller Hyman had figured it out. Right. And then I'd go, okay, some, uh, but not, and it was just kind of frustrating to me because I was looking for the answer. I was looking for a methodology that solved my fucking sales problems. Right. From soup to nuts, from prospecting all the way through to a close. When I went to, then I took Basho training and it was a two day public workshop, um, that I ended up going to.

And it was, it was eyeopening cause it was, it wasn't a methodology. It was tactics. It was, Hey, here's how to send an email, send the email, open up your laptop, go on the website, do a little bit of research, fire off an email that's in that format. And we literally did it in class and I got a response. I'm like, Holy fuck this works. And then it was like, day two was negotiations. It's like, okay, now build the scorecard. Now apply that to some of your deals and actually look at your forecast. And now you can tell which ones are out. And I'm like, Holy shit. Like, cause I'm a keep it simple, stupid guy. I am a, I'm a 80, 20, like give me the 20%. Right. Um, yeah, most of the 80% is bullshit anyways.

So that it clicked with me cause I was able to apply it immediately. And then after growing the company up and selling it off to Staples, that's when I got that opportunity and Basho, I remember cause I had my head down for seven years. Like I thrive and I was, I had no plan B I was all in on. And then we got acquired, even though I knew it was wrong. I was like, this is, I didn't, I didn't think about this. So this is, I wrote a blog post on this one called stop doing what you're supposed to do. Cause I was going through the motions. Right. I mean, I'm not looking for another job. I'm in this to win this. Right. But I knew it was wrong when they fired me. I was like, Holy shit. I'm in a, I'm in a panic.

Right. Because I hadn't thought about anything else. I was an IT services sales guy and I'm sitting there going to Kim, my wife. And I was like, is that what I am? I'm like, fuck, am I an IT sales guy? Is this what I'm supposed to do? I don't even like computers. Like I really don't. I, I, I, I, they're a means to an end for me. Like annoy me servers, all that shit. And so she actually is the one who helped me. She, she kind of helped me look back at my career. She's like, all right, well, let's take a look at why you were successful at every single job. Right. Why were you the best DeWalt rep? Well, because I fucking love DeWalt power tools. Right. DeWalt power tools are pretty bad ass. So it wasn't hard for me to explain like to, and you've heard me say this, which is, you know, sales is a transfer of enthusiasm.

Right. If you believe in what you do, I'm not saying sales is easy, but it's a lot fucking easier. Right. And then Xerox that I loved copiers, but I genuinely believe that Xerox was the best business, best copier in the industry. Then Thrive, it wasn't like computers, but I genuinely believed that the people at Thrive were going to do the right thing for our customers. So when it clicked for me was, I didn't matter. It didn't matter what I sold. It mattered what I believed, if I believed in what I sold. Right. That opened up my eyes to a whole, whole host of, Hey, what do I, what do I like? Right. What do I believe in? What can I see myself selling? And then I went to a recruiter who I was friends with and I had actually introduced her to Basho.

And I said, Hey Patty, you know, can I just pick your brain here? I'm like, what's up? What are the opportunities out there? What industries are hot? Like I've been literally heading my sand for, to have a head in the sand for seven years. And she goes, well, she's like this industry. She's like, but you know what? Basho's doing some really cool shit. You might want to go talk to them. And I was like, huh? And then I had lunch with the VP of sales and, uh, then I, mom told me, you know, and one thing led to another and I joined on board. So yeah. Awesome. What, um, I want to shift now. Thank you for sharing so much of your backstory because I think it's, I learned a ton of stuff and I've known you for seven years.

So I wanted to find new nuggets about John. So, but I do, I do want to shift this over to a little bit about sales training, right? Um, you know, I know you put out an online portal. I know you've got a podcast going. Um, I know you do your live training, you know, what do you see happening in training in the next couple of years? Right? Like, um, what is, what is meaningful to you in terms of whether it's tactics versus strategies, whether it's online versus offline, whether it is a lot, you know, live trainers like me and you are going to still need to exist or are we going to, you know, become some video format of, you know, you know, 3d image of ourselves that shows up. Yeah. I mean, I think maybe virtual reality.

I don't think, I don't think the live training will ever go away. Um, because you know it as well as I do. Like I've, trust me, I've tried, right? I have straight up tried to make the live training go away so I don't have to fly around all over the fucking world like I do. Um, but there's just something about the energy. There's some about the motivational factor of standing in front of a group of kids, 30 years old, you know, 30 kids or whatever it is and, and getting them and engaging and asking questions and that type of, so I don't think it's ever going to go away. But I think the big trend that's going to reshape our industry is the just in time learning stuff. Right. So I, I, I'm already seeing it with level jump and a lot of these other platforms where, you know, the days of blended learning or, you know, everybody's talked about that for a long time, but now describe that.

Like, I don't think everybody knows what blended learning is. You know, online reinforcement, onsite, remote coaching, all that stuff. Right. So it's not just a one day training. See you later. Good luck. It's okay. Well now, how does it get reinforced? You know, what, what kind of tools do we use to make sure that the reps are staying refreshed on it? How did the managers coach it? And then how can we keep it alive? Right. Cause, cause I mean, what are the stats that 90 days after a training or something like that? 84% of the, you know, the information is lost of anybody. And so there's tools and technology to do that. But I think what's more important necessarily isn't, isn't about the blended learning of a certain concept to then help me reinforce it.

I think it's literally micro learning in the moment. So I am making a call to a CFO to talk about pricing on a contract and I'm about to move a deal from stage five to stage six. Instead of trying to remember what John or Richard told me a month ago, when I make that phone call to that CFO, a little video is going to pop up and say, Hey, Hey, Hey, before you make that phone call, make sure you do X, Y, Z. Right. Um, while in line, I'm working with companies like Costello and those types of things that are like note taking, right. Where while you're taking notes, you can actually pre-populate it. So for instance, um, there's a, uh, say, say I'm asking you about your tech stack, right? You can actually, most clients, you know, of ours use Salesforce and sales loft or whatever.

Right. So you can pre-populate those buttons. And when you, when I'm asking, so Richard, what's your tech stack? And you're like, Oh, sales loft. And I check off sales sales loft. All of a sudden it's going to pull up content in line based on either customer testimonials or value propositions or that type of thing. So as a, as you're explaining to me your tech stack, I'm getting fed information that is directly relevant to those things that I can then use in conversation in line. So that's where training is going in my opinion. So how did, so I, so I, I, I'm curious, I think that's a great place to go. Like I think there's value there. The problem I see is that I don't think the mind can process those two things at the same time.

I don't think anybody can truly listen to what the prospect is saying and go read the three bullet points that just popped up in front of their head. Well, that'll be the challenge of how do I create effective pauses. Um, and you may have to learn to live with some awkwardness or to, and it's a little bit, it could be like, you know, when you're talking to the Delta agent, like, hold on, let me check that flight for you. Right. Right. Like, and granted, I don't want to be that, you know, that cold. Um, but it may feel that way. Cause I'm curious as to whether or not the mind can process those two things. So you're valid point. I, if you think about it before, during and after, right. I think the during part is absolutely the biggest challenge, but I think the, Hey, I'm about to make that phone call.

And before you do that, do X, Y, Z. And then what, like, again, I'll, I'm working directly with Costello on this based on how you take those notes and what the outcome of that meeting was, it's going to be with analytics and machine learning, it's going to be able to say, Hey, you actually didn't do a really good job on the qualification. Here's some content that you should watch now. So you get better for next time for next. That's the part I agree with. I think that's what's going to happen. Right. I love that it can pop up in the moment. And I think there will be some skilled people who can process both and do both. But you know, according to all the psychologists, like you can't multitask.

Multitasking is not physically, humanly possible psychologically. The myth of multitasking, get the book, read it. It's true. Exactly. What, um, as we talk about psychology of sales, like what do you see different, um, in sales reps today, um, versus, you know, the sales reps of, you know, even three or four years ago, right? Like I met you seven years ago, the world's changed since then. Is it, what's the makeup of the person today? Yeah. It's, it's a lot different. Uh, and actually Brian Remington and I were just having this conversation, um, on the way over here. Um, I think it's interesting because of the segmentation of roles. Yeah. Uh, when we grew up in sales, it was, here's your territory.

Good fucking luck. You know what I mean? And you had to cold call, you had to meet, you had to close. And if you didn't, you died. Right. And so that's why so many people got in and out of sales a lot fast. Like most people got out of sales fast. Like I think the stat was like 10 years ago, three out of four people that got into sales, got out of sales, right? Because it was that hard of a profession. Now the entree into sales is that inbound role. And you know, like all due respect, taking a inbound lead from somebody who's kind of interested in your product and giving them a free trial and seeing if they close that ain't fucking sales. Right. So it's like this false sense of, Oh, this is sales.

This is easy. Right. And then they go into the outbound. I got to make some cocoa. That's where they get kind of punched in the face. But you know, they've been on the phone a little bit. So they're, you know, some are better than others and then they have to close. Um, so I think there's the, I think the well-rounded sales rep is, is taking much longer to get to. I think we're going to start to see, uh, like for instance, SDR BDRs, I think are going to be lifers in the sense like they are going, that's like some people are just great at that. Yeah. Right. Um, and I think the biggest part, and this is what the conversation was on the way over here was like the competitiveness isn't there as much, which worries me.

Right. Is, is like the, and the healthy competitiveness, not the fuck you, you know, I'm the best and I'm the winner. Not the bro attitude. Right. Exactly. Not the douchebag Grant Cardone bullshit, but, but like the, Hey, I want to win and I want to, I want to be better than my teammates, even though we're all collectively doing this money. Money isn't the strongest motivator anymore. Um, it's, it's, it's, you know, I mean, obviously experience, is it mentoring, it's mentoring, it's learning, it's being part, it's feelings part of something bigger. You know what I mean? And, and that's why I always talk about, you have to share a vision. If you're a leader in the rep, don't, if you don't articulate your vision and get people bought into that, you will never get somebody to do more than their actual job.

Um, and they will bounce to another one where they're just looking for a little bit more money, but if you get them bought into a vision, you have a chance. Um, so I think it's, it's, it's interesting to talk about psychology, right? Because I think our generation is having a very hard time figuring out how to deal with this generation, especially from a sales standpoint, because again, our mentality is fucking figure it out. Like go get it. You know what I mean? And we have to now realize that that is not the way to coach and mentor kids coming out of school these days. So it's funny. I've, you've heard me say this too, is that I think the gen Xers, right? That's me and you, um, you know, we're jealous of the millennials because they're getting all the attention we wanted and getting the attention, the tools, the resources, everything, everything.

And so the anger we have towards them isn't because they're millennials. It's because we're jealous of what they're getting and we have to sort of reflect on that. And once you accept a piece of that, you don't have to buy into it wholly, but once you accept a piece of like, okay, wait a minute, I don't need to be mad at them because this is the world they're living in. Right. You know, it's like, it's not their fault. Well, that's where what Simon Sinek or whatever he is, he said, uh, you know, the kids weren't the ones crying, like, like the trophy generation. They weren't like, where's my trophy? If they came in 10th place, it was the parent who said, Oh my God, you better have a trophy. I feel so bad for my daughter because she didn't, she made, she didn't win.

So she needs a trophy. So I want to make her feel better. So it's actually the parents fault for the trophy generation. It's not the kids fault. They weren't saying, I mean, I was upset when I didn't come in first place too, but nobody gave me a fucking trophy. Right. So, well, it's funny. I have a, my close friend, you know, Scott Lee, who's a great sales leader too. And he coaches his kids and you know, he doesn't allow oranges at the end of the game. There's no snacks at the end of the game. There's no oranges at halftime. Like, because it's just like, he's trying to break that mold. And interestingly enough, he's coached several championship teams and taking his kids to the world, to the, to the, to the, uh, all-star games and all kinds of stuff.

So it's, it's interesting approach because I think that there's a right way to do that approach. You don't be a dick about it by taking away the trophy, right? You have to replace the trophy with mentoring and coaching. And I think if you do that, that's what you get, right? The trophy is the mentoring. It is the coaching. It is the life skill. And that buys the loyalty, right? Like we know people leave bosses, they don't leave companies, right? And that's what you can do. That's, that's totally different. I got, I got one more question for you. Um, and thanks for being so open on a different format and letting me ask questions. Um, uh, what, look, everybody I know in sales, you two, we all have stress, right?

We all have, am I going to hit my number? Look, you're one of the most successful guys out there and you and I've had conversations, but you know, with great success comes great responsibility, right? How do you manage stress? Right. You know, you've got a wife, you've got a child, you travel at least two weeks out of the month, if not three. Um, you've got, you know, several employees now. So you're, you're trying to bankroll people's life, like their home. Like, and I know you care about people. How do you manage that kind of stress? Right. Because not even just the day to day sales stress, but you know, I smoke a lot of weed. Like, are you, are you going to, are you going to go all Tesla on me right now?

No, no, no. Seriously. No, that helps. Um, but I think it's, it's, it's understanding, you know, I'll go back to the why, um, why you're doing it. You know what I mean? Helps you do. And, and also having a plan, like having a vision. I'll go back to that too. Like I tell kids all the time, like, you know, who, who come up to me and they're like, well, you know, John, I'm frustrated in my job right now. You know, I'm thinking about moving, you know, do you have any advice? And I'm like, Hey, all right, what's your, and I used to roll my eyes at the question, but now I think it's a really important one. Maybe it's age, maybe it's, you know, experience, but you know, the whole way, do you want to be in five years?

You know, that interview question, which we all, Oh, I want to be a fucking manager. Wait, but now I think it's a really important job to ask your question to ask everybody to say in your life, lifestyle wise, forget about job for a second, lifestyle wise, look five years out. Cause I think anything past five years is a crapshoot five years out. Where do you want to be lifestyle wise? What kind of car house, family, whatever, right? Travel, based on that now back into, well, how much money do you need to be able to make to be able to live that lifestyle? And therefore what kind of job do you need to have to be able to make that life? And then you can back into the numbers because look, I'll eat a shit sandwich for a year if it's going to help me get to where I want to go.

But if I don't have a plan, I'm just going to go looking for better shit sandwiches. You know what I mean? And so for me, the way I manage the stress is understanding that shit, some shit just, look, we're not fucking brain surgeons here. We're not emergency room doctors. We sell shit. So at the end of the day, the absolute worst thing that can happen is you'll lose a deal. You piss off a customer. You know what I mean? Like when, you know what I mean? I think people take shit too seriously. Um, but, um, but I think, um, but I think we're, you know, we're in a, this nervous society of everything's super important. And, and unless you define your priorities and what you're trying to do, you're going to always be chasing your tail, always be nervous about everything.

But if you have goals set and you have that guiding light of where you want to go, you can kind of take a step back and say, you know what, that shit just ain't that important. Um, and, um, you know, and don't get me wrong. Like the stress level is, is, is significant. Um, you know, biggest stress for me is, is kids, you know, daughter being there, am I doing the right thing as a parent? Um, and that puts everything else in perspective, you know what I mean? So I think, you know, having a daughter, having a daughter, um, really gave me a different view on stress. Uh, I thought things were a lot more important back then, you know, before her, uh, now I, things that I thought were super important aren't, uh, I know what is important.

Um, so my real stress comes in that realm. Right. Business stress. I, these days. So, and aside from the smoking part, like, how do you really unplug? Like, do you go home and you shut off the phone at night? Like, do you, can you not? I don't. Yeah. I don't. I mean, I, I got, or do you like, like every three months I've got a vacation and that's when I unplugged? Like, how do you, uh, I, you know, I, I, I come home, uh, you know, my, my day to day is I, if I'm not training, you know, doing this stuff, uh, you know, I'll usually work until six o'clock at night. Then the nanny, you know, my, my, my wife and I take over and hang out with Charlotte for about three hours, do everything we can to engage and, you know, be with her and be present.

Uh, and then nine o'clock comes and laptop comes back open. Both my wife and I work until about midnight, one o'clock, shut it down. I, I mean, I enjoy working. So sometimes it's working is relaxing and that's okay to admit it is okay. And to me it's, you know, people talk about this work life balance. I call bullshit on work life balance all the time because what you're saying to me, but with work life balance is you work and then you live. Right. So if you, if you take round numbers here and say you sleep about a third of your life, you work at least a third of your life. You're, that means you're telling with this, that means you only live a third of your life. That's a fucking, that's depressing as shit to me.

Right. So, so I think you interweave them together and if you, that's why I go back to, if you don't believe in what you do and if you don't love what you do, go find fucking something else to do. Yeah. Right. Cause that's where my stress would come. If I was working a nine to five where I hated my fucking life, then as soon as the five o'clock hour hit, I would be done. I would be shut everything off, leave me alone. I'm now going to go be present and go hang out and you know, all that other stuff. So, you know, for me, I, I'll be honest, I probably, you know, at least once a year, I have a bit of a nervous breakdown. It's usually in the shower where I'll like all the stress comes and it hits me at the same time.

And I kind of lose my fucking mind for a solid, you know, hour or so, and then might have to just take the day and just walk around the city or something like that, or, or, or just kind of refresh my mind. Um, but I, I think I've been blessed with a very high tolerance for, um, stress and, and putting things on my shoulders to, you know, whether it's family, friends, work, uh, I don't know how or why I think some of it has to do with DNA, um, that I, they have a much higher threshold for stress than, than some. Um, I don't let things bother me as much as most people do. Uh, I try to be put things into perspective. I'll give you an example. I don't watch the news anymore because what's going on right now, it's too depressing, but I would watch the news, uh, the, the news with Brian Williams back before he got screwed.

But, um, he exaggerated slightly in today's world. That's a today's world for sure. But, but I would watch the news, the nightly news every night for one very specific reason is because no matter how bad my day went, I could legitimately have the worst day of my life. And then I, and I, all I have to do is turn on the news to realize shit ain't that bad. Right. You know what I mean? Like at least I'm not born in Iraq and I'm worried about drones over my head. Right. You know what I mean? At least I have food and water and you know, and I, and a roof over my head. Like there's shit that's way worse. I mean, just being born here in America, whether you agree with what's happening here or not, like this is still being born.

And, and now with this whole, like the no bro culture and all that other stuff, the more I, you know, get into how women are treated and, and people of color and that type of stuff. Being born a white man in fucking the United States of America, you hit the fucking lottery. Yes. You know what I mean? So you, I have very little right to complain about anything. That's um, so I just look at it that way. Sure. Any, anything, anything else you want to sort of tell your audience, your audience, not mine, right? Like this has been fascinating. I want to, I appreciate it. Um, you know, I, I love all that you do and what you share and how you try to lead by example in lots of different ways, but, uh, anything coming up that you want to promote or announce or nothing, nothing specific, but just know that like I talked to you before this, I, I, I, I've made it, I made a turn here.

Uh, I'm done fucking around. Um, there's next year is going to be a go big or go home a year for me. Uh, so keep an eye out for some pretty cool shit coming up. That's awesome, John. Thank you. Thanks for turning over the microphone to me. Apologize for the background noise. We're doing this at dreamforce, right? Uh, so we, we were glad to get it done, but, uh, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks, John. Really appreciate it. Yeah. All right, everybody. Have a great one. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.