82: Sales Coaching - Tom Lavery

good afternoon everybody this is john barrows make it happen monday hopefully you all had a fantastic weekend i am here with a very interesting guest i've actually been working with for quite a while uh on on the startup of his company and what he's building out here and and it's a very topical uh um topic that we're going to talk about just for me personally and it's going to be about coaching so i'd like to introduce everybody to tom lavery from jiminy tom you want to say hi to everybody give a little background of where you're coming from what you're all about hey john thanks the intro man it's awesome to be here um yeah so uh you know um jiminy was uh founded by me and the team uh about two years ago we've been live about 18 months so my background is i'm a sv former svp of sales for tech company uh grew that over nearly a 10-year period um did a heap of things right heap of things wrong we sold it twice um in that time twice yeah well two private equity management buyouts so uh we opened up in different countries did all sorts of things so it's an amazing journey we learned so much and uh along the way the hardest thing in any business uh which is the lifeblood of it is sales right and i looked after sales and marketing and uh you know we just saw a massive opportunity to help sales and customer success be better at what they do and uh that's really how jiminy was born that's why it's turned into what it is which is as core is a communications platform which enables the whole business to coach and collaborate better love it i think that we're gonna dive into that i did want to back up because i was actually on a podcast yesterday um uh i think it was seamless and uh with brandon and he was actually asking me my history and we went through and he's like hey what's the biggest learning lesson right and i had a company who sold to staples and you know i told my biggest what was it you said you learned a lot with that that previous company right yeah what was some of like the biggest like shit man like learning lessons from that that that experience going pe twice those type of things i'm just curious myself yeah absolutely um well there's business stuff that we learn and there's personal stuff that you go through i think um for me those transitions of a business where you you're you're changing it's almost like if i look at it over an eight-year period it's almost like three different chapters to the career that like we progress through but for me you know adapting to that change when you when you're acting like as um so think about some of your your audience and your listeners who are you know aspiring sdrs or aes and you make that transition from being a seller to a manager a player coach to a manager you know letting your team fail and not kind of jumping in and i think we'll talk a lot about that um in kind of different ways of coaching and today and kind of chew the foul on that but for me it was definitely that adapting and changing my role sometimes i did it too late and i learned less hard lessons from it and fell hard other times i did it well um but yeah for me that that change changing of my role um that's how you evolve in a startup that's how you stay there otherwise you can't stay the course right yeah and i think that's like one of the things i have i realized is once you know where you fit it's an interesting journey right because some people are brilliant from zero to five or six million right because they're they're the pure chaos i'll start anything huge risk profile you know what i mean all in so like zero to 10 million give or take right and then there's 10 million to 50 million and it's a different skill set to take a company from 10 to 50 and then 50 to ipo or you know acquisition or something that's another and then after that that's another so it's like once you figure out where you fit it's actually quite liberating because then you start looking for companies where you know you're you're really good at this space at this stage of a company and and and you don't try to force it what i learned was there was definitely you know we had to force out a few people uh you know and i had to be forced out like when we got acquired by staples i thought i was the guy because i'd brought the company to that level and so great now it's my turn to help integrate into this multi-billion dollar organization and i was not the guy you know what i mean they they actually had they ended up firing me and and i was shocked right because i was like what the fuck are you gonna fire me for like i'm the one who built this company for crying out loud but like i just couldn't play the corporate game you know what i mean like i just don't i don't have a filter i don't know how to play politics so so i was not the guy for that next stage of that business and so it's uh it's an interesting journey as you as you jump into it right yeah as you look for jobs and people look for different careers now that culture fit is so important you know you spend 80 percent of your time at work and how even even the style of the sales team how you're going to be trained how you're going to coach the methodology of the way that they even sell their product um you know it's really something to consider when you're you know an sdrna looking for your next role that kind of that kind of thing can come first you know a lot of the time definitely so let's talk about coaching because i i this is a challenge for me uh and this is why i was looking forward to this conversation because you know i i've always said if my only job was to manage i i love managing when when it's my only job right but you add on being a business owner selling you know my my own quota player coach that type of stuff and i i'm not great i get i'll get i'll admit it you know i know where my strengths and weaknesses are my my coaching uh mentality or my management mentality when i'm in this mode growing a business and doing everything is keep up you know what i mean it's literally like hey i'm here for you um but you need to come to me when you have issues right and and i'm open to it but you know keep up pay attention and if you can keep up pay attention you're going to learn a shitload along the way but as far as me taking a step back and doing like actual real coaching i'm really not that good at it because it's hard for me to fit it into my schedule at least the way i think of things right i mean one of the challenges for instance with call recordings and everything else is you know every half hour that there's a call recording that i need to listen to so i can give feedback on that is a half an hour that i have to take away from my day which is focused on selling clients managing accounts prepping for trainings and those type of things so can we talk let's talk about first of all what's your philosophy these days we talked briefly before we jumped on here about kind of the modern coaching like the old school mentality of managing and coaching versus the modern way of managing and coaching could you kind of set the stage with that and then let's dive into some practical stuff about you know maybe to help me out a little bit yeah yeah well i think there's lots of interesting points there i think first of all if you talk about like i've been the old school way right so i'm going to show my age and how i'm on mid-30s and i started selling like you when i was very young and you know when i was first learning to be a sales manager it's kind of like well this is the way we sell and you expect the team to kind of fall in line and follow the way you sell all with good intentions right um but i i think you know the modern way is a really good sales leader is that you haven't got all the answers and that you don't know everything and how can the rest of the team help you know to coach so for example um it's kind of changing changing the mentality of who is the coach and it kind of leads into kind of how uh we see customers today really uh engage with kind of peer-to-peer coaching to achieve the best results right so if you've got a senior ae and they're awesome at doing that one thing in the sales process they're probably the best person to coach this new rep on x right and it's just how those things happen across across the business but yeah my my philosophy of being an open leader knowing that you you kind of haven't got all the answers and letting the team support and coach each other i think that that leads to the culture piece of this too because because how do you incentivize you know those individual contributors the sdr the ae who are great in those areas who are who are usually excelling in those areas because they are focused and they are good at what they do right and now you're asking them how do you you know hey i need your help coaching the rest of the team on what you're really good at how like is that a pure culture thing do you kind of set the stage early on in your organization hey everybody's all in on this stuff and this is what my expectations are of you or do you have to put together incentive plans or or structure or something to to help say to those people look i'm adding some additional responsibility your plate that you might not get comped for but it's for the betterment of the team like how do you get people to do that yeah well there's loads of different ways right in in terms of how you can coach whether it's in the moment you know whether it's after the event you know whether it's in a team session whether it's like self-coaching comes first so if you were talking earlier where you haven't got bags of time you know setting a simple kpi to listen to your own conversation and then bring back to the table what you've learned and then you can be more constructive with it right but i i you know i think in terms of um like millennials it's been proven time and time again they want to share i'm a millennial just you know people want feedback they want to be they want to be told these things so i think you know at the end of the day uh the old school way would be our new person starts they're going to sit next to you for two weeks and just watch you do your job and wait for those kind of golden moments to happen which inevitably don't right so um i think it's all how you spin it to the team right these things are all um time consuming for everyone in terms of like training but it's all how you fundamentally piece it together to get the best result everyone's um you know pushing towards the same goal in a team right you what whether you you were talking about your numbers earlier right everyone wants to hit that goal of what they want to achieve and it's just about building that uh winning mentality across across the business so they want to help each other and that's where you see the best success like uh when we look at our customers people do it in different ways right but the ones that are really successful and grow faster are the ones that aren't just all about individual contributors thinking i'm the sales king it's about the ones that are thinking it's a it's a team sport ultimately yeah and i mean i think ultimately that's how teams win right i mean hey you know everybody looks at sales as an individual sport because you got your quota and that type of thing but the best sales reps i've ever come across yeah they make sure that they hit their targets but then as soon as they do they they they carve out time to help everybody else rise the tide right and and so but with that like say you're a rep out there that that doesn't have a culture like that you know what i mean like you're working at a company right now it's not a coaching it's not a all hands on deck we're all helping each other out here and and you want coaching like you need coaching you mentioned earlier about self-coaching i think one of the most powerful things any of us can do is record ourselves doing anything you know i mean like if you like but i took presentation skills training it was this is embarrassing i um so i've been doing this this basho training you know i've worked for basho and then we split off and we started kensei partners and i remember you know i my training for how to deliver training was follow me like watch me right so i watched one of the senior trainers i took my notes right and i kind of regurgitated what they said and then i found my style and whatever but i never took presentation skills training right so to learn how to actually present so i was like you know what maybe like five years into my career as a trainer i said yeah maybe i should go take some presentation skills training and i and i took this presentation skills training and what they do is i don't know if you've ever taken it but they they they record you right so you stand up right and they record you and then they bring you back into a room and they show you what you know and then they kind of give you some tips about what and and when i tell you that the guy when he brought me back into that room he didn't have to say a damn thing as soon as i looked at myself on video i was like holy shit like have i been doing that for the past five years like i didn't even so so that's self-correcting and i recommend to reps all the time like leave yourself a voicemail record your voicemail listen to it it's going to be painful but it's going to be the best way that you can improve yourself so how do you what are some ideas that you have for for reps to to either seek out coaching um from other people in a in a respectful way understanding hey everybody's time is valuable here but also um do some self-coaching like what are some ideas around that that we can help improve ourselves for in case we don't have a company that's really invested in that yeah i think i think there's um you see it all the time like we're in certain circles where you might you might think that everyone records every conversation and that people would do coaching all the time which is not true at all um so that that kind of first step in terms of people thinking you know it's not big brother all right or it's not like oh my god i'm just uh you know being being you know watched by my manager and that that again comes down to the the kind of top down thing but i think if you're looking at the um the individual person there are tools you can you can just use yourself to like record your app on the phone record your own call call your own conversation but yeah self-coaching is the first step right if you listen back to your own conversation you're going to be able to dissect it right and it's focusing on those one things you're like if you're a tennis player or you're a football player or anything you're going to watch your serve back you watch how you do that right so i would just pick one thing to start right everyone yeah you were talking about it the other day i listened to a couple of podcasts before right and uh um everyone knows the sale is won or lost in that first call that is what that's a very obvious thing it doesn't you know so many opportunities go in a pipeline so that discovery call is where you win or lose a deal or discovery demo whatever you want to call it so you know start with one part of your sales um whether it's a cold call if you're outbound or and just focus on doing listening to that bit and getting that bit nailed but that would be my advice just don't don't try and spread yourself too thin just focus on one one thing to coach to start yeah i used to tell people you know i this is what i did i'd pick one thing a month that i was trying to improve about myself and it could have been small like you know i went to toastmasters once um and what they do is they record you right it's public speaking um they record you they and then you know people give you feedback and somebody in the back of the room counts your filler words right how many times you said um throughout those type of things and you never know how bad your filler words are until somebody actually points them out to you but then once you point them out once somebody points them out to you that's all you can hear for crying out loud so when i was highlighted you know for instance and i tell everybody this i'm on a crusade still to get these two phrases out of the vocabulary of sales professionals which is touching base and checking in right but for a month all i did was i literally took sticky notes i put them up on my cube and those type of i told everybody around me if you ever hear me say touching base and checking in i want you to smack me and and so that was a focal point for the month of getting that out of my vocabulary and replacing it with something else and then the next month i would pick something else so i think to your point you know it's almost like you have to look at first of all what's your job right like what do you know are you an sdr are you an ae are you a manager uh and then saying okay well what are all the areas that i do need coaching on and then prioritize them out to say okay you know for instance an sdr it's like um i'm i'm good at making calls i'm good in that activity but i don't do a lot of prep for my calls so maybe i'll prep a little bit better or gatekeepers i suck at getting through gatekeepers or that initial intro call and and you know tying into like those are the sections to your point how do i improve on that and then how do you know what to look for though right if you're self-coaching how do you know that your call sucked versus it was it was decent you know one of the things i'm i'm looking at right now um you know with morgan for instance i listened to his calls and they're good you know what i mean i listened to them in general and if you didn't really listen in like you wouldn't be able to pick up like if you didn't have a lot of experience right like we've been in sales for 20 years either one of us can listen to a call and and yeah it's a good call but there's something missing right so i can i can kind of pick that out but how does an inexperienced rep understands where where they really do need coaching or what what what good what does good look like you know as it relates to what they do yeah i think you could probably definitely have happy ears when you listen to a recording or in real time right um but you know i think in hindsight you're when you're selling or you're talking or you're in the moment um you're trying to listen and you're trying to think about the next thing to say so it's always going to be slow down like almost like slow motion right and again oh god like you say you've been doing 15 years i'm sure when i'm pitching there's still that you never get the finished article right it's never perfect so i think that it wouldn't worry about the thousand things that are in the call that are probably not right or wrong as long as you pick up on that one thing that probably you know or is quite glaringly obvious you know in your in your kind of call whether it's like oh i'm using this negative language to introduce this or i'm doing that i think if they can just spot one thing then it's a start right because that's self-coaching it is down to them but then it's like how they involve their managers say oh you know if their manager's short on time it's like oh i listen back to my call and i think there's this one part that you should you'll find interesting can you listen to this five minutes and tell me if you think you know this is right so you might be asking for a tiny bit of their time and then put it back that's obviously if if the culture's different and they're not already well i mean i think that's actually a pretty good point um for for people listening here you know i always tell people look you know i was a manager of six or seven reps and in it and it's not easy as a manager to identify the strengths and weaknesses of your seven ten you know however many reps are reporting to you and i and identify where they need help so inevitably what happens from a from a management standpoint is we take a little bit more of a broad brush approach to everybody saying hey you know what here's how we need to run qualification calls we're not doing good on qualification calls so right let's try this as a group individually though it's like how do i know this person so if a rep and i tell this reps all the time if you want to go to the top of your manager's list as far as like favorites if you will proactively ask for coaching right because it's actually something managers want to do but like a lot of times because managers don't have a lot of time to do it and there's very limited structure on how they do it when they when it comes to a i know i got to coach my team uh what now or i know i got to coach tom here all right all right now i got to think about what do i got to coach tom on you know what i mean and and where is he struggling and you know let me think through some of his the conversations i've had with him but if you come to me and say hey john i've been listening to my calls and this is what's going on and i i need some help here could you listen to that then it's like holy shit yes you know what i mean like great and you go to the top of the list you know i recommend reps for instance like cool call your manager at out off hours right leave your leave your manager a voicemail as if they were a prospect and and then at the end of that voicemail say hey boss you know tomorrow morning when you come in could you tell me what you thought of that voicemail and let me know if you would have even responded to it that type of thing right those type of things go a long way to help managers help you right yeah i think it's um going back because you fired a lot of points off there there's a i don't want to be a fire star here but there's a total myth like don't have time to coach don't have time to do this especially if you're frontline kind of operational and tactical manager historically it's just not been easy to do it now it's easy to do it there's lots of tools out there like ours that can enable teams to be better at coaching more efficient with their time so it's it's about how what you prioritize in your day everyone has a massive to-do list so you know if you're a manager it's like how much do you want to help your team and what what are you going to do to do that but um in in terms of like the the bigger picture in terms of like how that how the team work together i i do honestly believe that there's got to be the the breakdown of mentality that if i'm i don't know we speak to a lot of people right so i don't know what's the ratio sometimes we see 14 to 1 sometimes we see 10 to 1 sometimes we see 8 or 9 to 1 you know what's the optimum um number you should manage i think it's like you should have four or five direct reports i think like 10 is the max or something like that it's like six like five to six is the is the optimal spot yeah so for me that that is just fundamentally a broken model right because anyway even with six you know it's hard to do so like i say the key is you have to create a culture where everyone's winning together so if you're if you've got aspiring aes you want to make that next step into management and they're thinking about what type of manager they want to be in the future it's all about being that open manager that lets the team work together and make mistakes and you foster that that culture where they can tell each other what's happening that they could invite each other to a call and not be shy to do that uh you know where it doesn't always have to evolve around john giving the feedback or john saying x you know that anyone feels that they can speak up and uh you know contribute uh so i think that's the key really there's definitely a mindset in terms of like everyone just goes to the direct report whereas it's up to the direct report to make that shift and that that's really where it needs to change yeah and you had said something earlier that was interesting where what's that line between letting somebody fail and doing for them right and and that's always been a challenge for me which is you know is you know there's some times where i listen in on calls and i'm like i you know i literally have to pull my earbuds up and be like oh my god oh my god oh my god like like like you know like sometimes when you watch a movie and it's like a train wreck and you just can't watch it like that's sometimes me listening to calls because i'm like oh no you missed it it's right there and or when i see somebody doing a presentation right if that if i think or a sales call and this is for any manager out there and for any rep like if you don't put structure to a sales call for instance right so say like if you don't sit down with your manager before a sales call and say all right boss here's the agenda here are my goals for the meeting here's how i'm going to set the stage then i want you to do this and then like if you don't go in with a game plan when you bring your manager in inevitably the manager is going to take over the conversation real fast and i find myself doing that all a lot right where i'll have like morgan will bring me on a call as really just to say hi and that type of stuff and five minutes into the call i can tell there's really not a lot of structure to it or you know it's kind of where and i'll be like okay anyways and now it's my show right which isn't good right because i'm taking over i'm not letting him go as far down that path you know because i'm afraid we're going to lose this if i don't if i don't pull it back right so how do you know as a manager like how far to let your um your your your team members go on the failure side versus ah shit i gotta jump in right now and fix that because it's it's an issue yeah i mean personally as well historically i used to suck at that man it's really bad you know where i just want to like jump in and save the day and you know sales is one of the hardest jobs in any business it's a pressured environment you've got to deliver the number everyone feels the pressure of that you're totally exposed um like no other department is yeah you're held accountable for those numbers so you know it creates that behavior of you know not wanting to fail um but you know i'm even learning this now like as a founder of a company which is a new experience for me you know i was i was sitting in uh you know being a vp looking at all the other departments thinking my former ceo is a very good friend of mine thinking oh we could do this better could do that better and now i'm in the hot seat i'm like oh my god i see everything yeah and it's totally different um so it's a really really difficult thing to do but i think you know um like sometimes you have to go backwards to go forward and it's really hard so you're like okay i'll give you a really good example when we were talking about me not transitioning well from being a player coach to a vp you know i should really at the time go do you know what we're probably not going to do as much revenue for three to four months but in six months time it's going to fly and it won't be the tom show and it won't be dependent on that right but it takes you know you've got to be brave to do that you've got to have experience to do that it's a hard thing but i think now the same thing is you know i might listen to a call and that's why i think live coaching is really important because you do hear different things in the moment and you can guide people because the opportunity is still not lost you can be there supporting kind of in the moment as well as you know retrospectively when it when it's kind of gone or you've lost the opportunity but i think you've got to just you've got to sometimes just go up oh shit we're going to lose that deal i know we're going to lose that deal i want it to happen yeah but you know i've got to let like i don't know like jerry's our new vp of sales been in business six months i'll be on calls i know that i just gotta let jerry have his head he's got his own things and then we can have the conversation after and work it through but yeah you just it's that thing about just you've got to let go of that deal and that's that that's a really hard thing to do because i had to learn the hard way to do it as well you said something about live coaching like you know in the moment right so i'm on the call you're listening in how do you do that without fucking somebody up so so and i say that because like if i'm on a call with a client right and i'm doing my thing i'm asking my questions i'm giving my pitch and i got somebody chirping in my ear or next to me being like no no no say this do that instead do this right it literally ruins my flow it ruins my my talk track and it's noticeable right so what are what are some ways that you can do live coaching without screwing up the flow of the person that you were trying to coach in that moment yeah i mean i don't want to i don't want to put out push or anything like that but i went when we um built jiminy we we did a lot of due diligence market research because we knew a lot of the answers but we never when we uh did interviews and surveys no one liked cool whispering no one likes there being an ear whispered in so we kind of reinvented the wheel and did it all through chat and there was kind of two reasons for that one it's an integrated way it's a lot calmer it's a lot subtle you can take you can take the written words in a different pace right at the right time and also you've got history of record of those notes so you could live live coach morgan and you might just let him flow through the whole call and then you drop them a note and say hey uh all those coaching notes they're just in the task in hubspot and salesforce there's a few things i'll give you a buzz later and we can chat about them so you get the best of both worlds so i think there's there's definitely a new way where you can you know use like uh you were talking to i know dc and david at drift and we're talking about how chat and real-time messaging is so important and how things like drift and slack are blown up so using chat to coach is a much more effective way in my opinion that makes sense yeah because i think that's that's the struggle it's like yeah okay great point but that's that's probably a point that could have been made after the fact as a as a as a post coaching moment versus you know my desire to jump in on that conversation and say no no no no don't say that say this like that that's going to screw up their their again their flow and it's going to be noticeable so i think chats are probably the that's a really interesting thing you say that because it's it's a learned behavior right because the thing is when you're live coaching and chat will be to this like chat everything right that would then that would then just have the same effect as like jumping in the area or shoving that classic thing and putting post-its on you say this say this and people are like flapping and they're sweating already you know we've all been there on our first meetings our first calls um so i think you know sometimes it might be really subtle like um you could put an emoji in and like give them the thumbs up you're doing awesome yeah and again it's just like if you're analyzing recording and picking out that one game changing thing it's like you don't have to overdo it it's sometimes it's about building confidence and all the other things that you do um in those in those coaching sessions but uh yeah i think it's tendency just to like chat loads of things and like spit it all out but you could just think oh you could write them all down and then decide which ones you want to send after right then have to pick them all in the moment yeah i think that's uh you know it's like it's it's one of the most important it's one of the most important things a manager can do but it's unfortunately one of the most underserviced areas uh that we do do is is is direct coaching not just you know not just managing um and career development but it's in the moment coaching because that's when the real learning happens right i mean one of my favorite tips to to give to people when they do call blitzes for instance is to to get in a room you know grab grab four people get into a room with a speaker phone and do round robin dials on the speaker phone because the amount of learning that happens in that environment is far beyond what any trainer could ever bring to bring to the table because you're you're literally listening to right and so that person's in the moment they're making that phone call and then afterwards collectively the three or four people that are in there hey how'd that go how could we have done that better and then they apply that discussion to the next call so the next person makes the call and learns from the first one and in a real short period of time you know the the you see confidence you see skill sets go up exponentially compared to anybody standing up and doing a presentation on how to make a cold call yeah and i think i think there's different data points as well when you it comes to using the team and the data that you you have to like why do i want to be on that call why do i want to why should i be on that call why should i listen to this call and these are the problems that um we've been solving for customers and looking at that's both in terms of live coaching right so um you can slack people into conversations or be able to like follow a certain opportunity or certain account so when they spin up another meeting with pepsi you know you want to be on it and it's going to tell you to go and be on it right so is that efficient and effective use of time um because time's everyone's biggest commodity right and if you can give it back to people that's the that's ultimately that's what we're all selling you know what i mean like yeah we're trying to solve pain we're so trying to you know paint a vision for people but at the end of the day time is the commodity that we're all trading in here so they need to do faster i mean i always tell people the way you can add value to me is take that hour-long bullshit meeting that we have to spend 15 minutes you know rapport building and then the last half you know figuring stuff out and cut that down to 15 to 20 minutes and just get to the damn point like if you do that as a sales rep i don't care what you're selling if i have five meetings with vendors four of them are hour-long bullshit you know basic meetings and one of them is 20 minutes you're you're in you're in a better light for me than anybody regardless of what your product does for crying out loud so so that to me is adding value to our relationship and so back especially as a manager right if you can give me time back as a manager while making me more effective you know all of a sudden we got so we got something to work with here so yeah i think um we we noticed loads of stuff um over the last two years like doing lots of integrations working with slack g suite office just how much time like um i think it's like the average person uses like 34 apps more hours than there are in the day right so you know how you know how can you consolidate what the team are doing so they can have effective use of time everyone knows that people are spending too much time doing admin versus actually you know speaking to customers solving problems doing those things you know um the the time of it like even when you listen back and we talk about self-coaching that every business is different and everyone's products unique but even learning what your optimal time is for your cold call or your discovery call because there is a set rule right and depending on what it is and i think that's a really important thing but if you're starting a business or you're just selling or you're founding you know you'll have all sorts of different listeners doing solving different problems but you know finding like that optimal time for your meeting or your pitch based on your icp and your customer is a really important thing i saw i saw a customer last year and they were like doing demos that were like over an hour and they cut it back by 20 minutes and you know six months later they had the best ever quarter but you have to understand uh you know what works for you yeah yeah i think that's like going back to your point of just picking one thing to focus on as an individual or as a team to say hey let's let's hammer down on this one thing so that we can all get really good at that and then analyze the results to see the difference that it makes right all sorts of different approaches everything else so some of the best um coaching practices i've seen because um everyone adopts them differently you know like you know uh stand-ups which i sure you talk about you know in the morning come in you know have it have yourselves kind of stand up so if people have time back like whether you're operational tactical manager you spend the last everyone probably stays in the office an hour too late or an hour too long or you waste an hour doing other things instagram facebook right so yeah end of the day um you spend 20-30 minutes listening to an interesting conversation that your team sent you then you use that in the stand-up in the morning so that you're breaking down coaching into bite-sized chunks but you're making it daily as well so um those individual examples can be used whether whether it's some i've seen people do it in a one-on-one like i'm going to spend 10 minutes coaching all five of six of you you know back to back and that's what i prepared in the last hour of my day some people execute it that way some people just kick off every morning you know coffees donuts you know kind of like let's just do a stand-up listen to one example of one part of a call and it's that that thing about weaving it into the culture so it's not just oh we do this sometimes and again it's like anything it's it's structure uh to the day to the week to the month you know of carving out that time to do it yeah putting it on your calendar too right like owning it not being it you know my my thing is is is if it's not on my calendar it doesn't happen so it's on my calendar it has a chance uh and so just having some repeatable process that you go through where it's structured every every day or every week or something where you section out that time to say that i'm going to treat this like a meeting with a client i'm not going to reschedule it i'm not going to push it like this is a priority for me um and i think that that right now for instance at the end of this year going into next year i think a lot of managers need to take a look back and i i am like as far as my goals uh a big goal for me is to is to do a better job at coaching consistently um not just looking at deals not just you know jumping in when i whenever there's a problem but actually proactively looking at the skills that need to be developed on my team and doing something about it so um you know from a goal setting standpoint that's that's one of the things i think everybody should should improve upon you gotta live and die by your calendar my uh my wife goes nuts with me because uh i i live and die by my calendar so much that i put her due date in the calendar for our third child and she was like you for you for real you're telling me that i'm having a baby that day i was like if i don't put it in i'm gonna book a meeting so i was like that's probably taking it to the extreme but uh i do the same thing i told her like because i could have the same like in the morning i could have a conversation with my wife about we're going out to dinner tonight with you know our friends and blah blah blah and i'll be like hey yeah sure and then the end of the day comes and if it's not on my calendar i'll still be working away and she'll be like you ready to go out to dinner i'll be like for what like what are you talking about she's like we just talked this morning i'm like if it's not on my calendar honey it doesn't happen so now she sends me invites for pretty much everything you know dinner like go pick up the groceries you know pick the kid up like and it should happen so um so i think we'll end there uh you know i think we could have a conversation here for a long time because you know coaching is there's so many nuances to it um but just uh in the interest of time let's talk about uh tom you know moving into next year what you're focused on and and where people can find out more information about you and jiminy um so that they can follow what you're doing because i think what you're doing is really important uh for for the next evolution of where sales is going here yeah absolutely i think um you know to come find us uh obviously you can just go to jiminy and that's j-i-m-i-double-m-y people like to spell it in all sorts of different ways but if you uh if you search it you'll find it find it easily i think for us it's sort of you know everyone's on a mission to uh show people where they should listen where they should coach and uh you know that's a big focus for us um using all the data that we have to really show our customers where they can spend their time effectively um you know that that's that's really kind of the big goal in terms of like our product and what we're kind of looking to do on that front um yeah you can just find us at jiminy.com you can reach out to any of me and the team on linkedin um and we'd always be happy for chatting awesome all right tom well i appreciate the time here um and hopefully everybody if you're an individual contributor out there you know proactively go and ask for coaching but do it in the right way don't just say i need coaching be specific with what you're asking for if you're a manager out there make it a goal in 2019 to to be more proactive and structured with your coaching because it matters um and if you can you know invest in tools like jiminy and those type of things all the better so with that uh thanks again tom and everybody make it a great day end the year on a positive note go out there make somebody happy right there's there's we need more positivity in this world so let's go make it happen all right cheers john thanks a lot bye thanks bye oh oh oh oh oh We'll see you next time.