91: Jake Dunlap CEO of Skaled - LinkedIn and Personal Branding

Jerry Graham, what's up, bro? What's up, man? How you doing? It's good to see you. You too, man. So I wanted to sit down here because I've been seeing you a lot on LinkedIn, on Instagram. Putting in the work, my man. Right, and there was a switch, right? And I want to start with Gary Vee's 4D session, right? So I went to the second one. And when did you go? When did you go? We went in the beginning of October. Okay. Yeah. And first of all, why did you want to go to the Gary? So for people listening to this, the 4D session is you go to Gary Vee's office, right? You get exposed for a day. It's like 10 grand still, something like that. You go for a day where all the department heads come in. They walk through everything that they're doing.

And then Gary comes in at the end for a Q&A, right? Yeah. First of all, why did you decide to go to that at that point in your business? So what happened is for us as just a company back in about May of last year, look, we were doing the same play that everyone is. You put out e-books, you put out blog posts, and we put together this killer GDPR e-book. I mean, this thing was amazing, right? If you were a sales and marketing leader, I still think you should go and check it out. No engagement. Like a mediocre engagement. And so finally, I started to look at our blog posts, et cetera. I'm like, why are we putting all this work, all this time? And now we're getting back to doing some longer form stuff.

But why do it whenever we can just do micro content every day? So starting about June of last year, we started to do this on our own, right? So we started to work on posting on LinkedIn every day, hired our head of social media to help with posting on the scaled side and understand with that brand. And so we felt like, okay, we've got a foundation. We get why social is important, and we get why it's the new way to engage with people. And so for us, and I don't know how you felt about this, we did the four Ds. Obviously, you go for Gary, and you get a chance to interact. But it was talking to his social team, his paid team, the Vayner paid team. I mean, the value there was tremendous, you know?

And we had a couple people from the team go, and we were able to record everything. Did you do the what's your why exercise? We did. We did like a version of it, yeah. Because that was for me, like when I, hold on a second. We're still rolling. Yeah. So the reason, like it was a cool timing for me to go to that, because it was right when I was trying to figure out, do I want to take that next level with my business, right? And that really, that why exercise of why do you do what you do as a super, and then the values and that type of thing. So after that, obviously, I mean, you had been doing the social stuff, micro content, but did that kick it into a whole other level? 100%. Well, I think, you know, like from the conversation with Gary directly, talking about what we're doing, he's like, look, you guys are on the right path.

He's like, the one answer, and it's what he always says, is more, right? And he's right. He's honestly, it's right. I talked to so many leaders, and they're always worried about saturation. I'm like, dude, you're posting once a week. You know, like there is no, our attention spans are so short, there is no saturation. That post that I do this morning, it's got a shelf life. It'll kind of live on. And LinkedIn, things have a lot longer shelf life, which is kind of nice. But on Instagram, shit, you could post eight times and nine times a day on Instagram. That's why stories are so popular. Yeah, the stories. I think people like, what I found is that people really love, like, they love the tips and the nuggets, but they love watching the journey.

Yeah, you do a really good job of that, by the way. Thank you. You know, I did a survey to my audience on Instagram specifically, and I said, hey, I'm trying to figure out what you guys want from this. Do you want tips and nuggets and tactical stuff, or do you want to just follow the journey of me getting on airplanes, going to grind, and that type of stuff? And it was literally 50-50. It was like, so I was like, all right, I'll just do both, right? So I'll just sprinkle those in. So now, so Instagram, what are the main, you're on LinkedIn, Instagram. LinkedIn, and the big one that we're getting ready to start to focus on, I know you're big into video. We are too, so we've got a full-time person coming on board now, is YouTube.

I think we've started to populate on YouTube, but I think we've slept on YouTube too long. But, so I think our big three are going to be those. It's going to be LinkedIn one, YouTube second, Instagram three. So the LinkedIn stuff, right? Because what I want to get to with this conversation is some tactical stuff, obviously, that people can always, as always. But LinkedIn specifically, I mean, I've, we, as the Jay Barrows team, we kind of did everything last year. We did, and we tracked everything. It was Instagram followers, Snapchat, and this, and that, and the other thing. We realized we were just doing the shit just to do it. Because you thought you should. Right? And so, and it was, you know, good, but you couldn't directly tie much, you know, ROI to it.

So, you know, we've really kind of ratcheted back as far as our focus. And LinkedIn is obviously, for us, the biggest audience that we got. I mean, I got about 300 and something followers, 300,000 followers or so. So that is, if my audience is there, that's where we're building most of our content. Yeah. But we're definitely seeing some stuff that is almost counterintuitive to getting reach. Tell me about it. I mean, for instance, you think images. Okay? Like, I'll give you an example. Like, Facebook, I just know how I operate, right? Yeah. As I scroll through Facebook, if there's not an image, I don't think I see it. I literally, if it's just a block of text, I just keep scrolling and I look for the image.

But that's Facebook. Yeah, exactly right. LinkedIn, I actually look for the people and the content. The image doesn't matter as much. And so what we're seeing is the organic reach, if you will, of a pure text LinkedIn, like a simple question. Yeah. Blows the fuck up, right? Yeah, same thing. Because if you ask the question and it's a genuine and you're not doing a bait and switch so that you can sell them something. Yeah. Versus like a really well, like professionally done video and all that with a thumbnail. So what are some of the other things that you're seeing? Like hashtags, do they matter? Timing, does it matter? Stuff that, you know, I'll tell you shit that bothers me. And for anybody out there who's listening, stop tagging me in every goddamn post you put out there.

Like just because I'm an influencer, I don't consider myself, but just because I got 300,000 followers, don't just put me arbitrarily on your post so that I can get in there and help you build your audience. If you want my engagement, say, John, you know, I've been following you. What are your thoughts on this? Because your last blog, you said that. Like what are your thoughts? Right. That. Then I'll get engaged. But I can't stand it when people just tag me. It's funny. I don't care. I mean, for me, it's all about reach, man. But it's just, but it's, I guess it's a, yes, it's about reach, but it's, it's about doing it the right way, in my opinion. Quality over quantity. I get it. Look, I mean, for me, I'm flattered.

If someone wants to tag me in a post, if they want to, I'm just fine, whatever. You know, I just scroll by. And again, in some of it, and to me, I think that that's the other part of this. So to kind of go back to the question is, to me, it's about engagement. I think, I think what, what I've really tried to do, I respond to almost every single comment, almost every single one. And so I really try to make sure that as I'm building audience, I'm keeping them there. And they're like, okay, this is a real person. You know, people, again, they'll DM me. They'll say, wow, I can't believe you responded. I will take out 15 minutes for a lot of people, man. And because again, I'm, I'm in like month 10 of doing this.

I mean, look, I've been grinding for a long time, but I'm actually trying to talk about it. And I think that that's the big fear. And I'm sure you see this with people is people don't want to talk about themselves, especially sales leaders. Like we're a very secure, insecure bunch and very nervous about being viewed in the space as that guy. And I think so many people are worried about being viewed as that guy that stops them from ever doing it. But to go back to it, we've seen the exact same thing that if we do, that's why we don't do it. That's why we stopped doing the blog posts and the nice images and all that stuff, because it doesn't do anything, man. That's not what people are going. I mean, look, people are speaking.

They are saying, I like text posts that are really tactical. Amazing. They're saying, I like the selfie video, even though other people are hating on it. They're like, oh, you're walking around with your AirPods. Yeah. Tens of thousands of views say differently. Right. So, again, but the other piece, too, and Gary talked about this. I asked Gary that exact same question. I said, text posts seem to be over-indexing. He goes, but don't get caught up in it. You have to have multi-meet. You have to have, you switch it up for your audience, because it'll get stale if you're only doing text posts. So, we've seen the same thing. That was one of the things. That's a really long way to get to the initial answer.

But no, I mean, one of the things that he got my eyes open to a little bit was, I used to use Buffer. Yeah. So, I would write something. Pre-write that shit, yeah. And then I would schedule it to go on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, whatever, and do it that way. And he was like, look, people go to different social channels for different reasons. Yeah. They go to Pinterest to Windows Shop. Yeah. Right? I'm sorry. They go to Instagram to Windows Shop. They go to Twitter to kind of look for content, potentially, or follow certain stuff. They go to Facebook as their news feed. Yeah. They go to LinkedIn for this, right? So, you have to understand the behaviors of your buyer and why they're on that platform.

And then carve up your content to support that platform. Let's tweak it. Hashtags. Have you seen anything with hashtags working? I just use them for fun, usually. Yeah. You know, I'll just use it to make up what I did one other day about, like, I like to make up fictitious names, like Timmy and Barbara, like, when I'm making a point. Yeah. And so, honestly, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if it's extended the reach or not. I haven't seen a huge, like, when we hashtag stuff or don't hashtag, you know, on LinkedIn specifically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Instagram, we hashtag, like, everybody else. Instagram and Twitter, right? So, advice for you, now that you've been on this journey now for, you know, about a year, really getting into social.

Lessons learned? Anything you can help people who are like, you know what, I know I need to make that switch. I know I need to get started. And, like, you're going to make mistakes. But is there anything that, like, words of wisdom that you can tell people? Hey, don't do this. Do that. Like, focus on these areas. I think the first is the attitude. Is you have to have an attitude of it's all just data points early on. Right. You know, I never judged myself. I never said, oh, man, I got three likes or five or 20 likes in the beginning. I never judged myself. I never worried about it. If somebody, I think that that's it, is that you go into the mindset of, you know, I'm learning something new. This is an, it is a skill.

It's a combination of the, you know, it's copywriting. You know, and it's, some people are stronger at it than others. So, I think, to me, you've got to go into this with a mindset of, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm figuring it out. And I think a lot of people go into it with a lot of pressure on themselves. And then they get down on themselves. And so, that's a main reason that they stop. So, my biggest advice, and I tell people, they say, like, Jake, how do you put out, we post, I post at least twice a day. In the morning. So, you asked me a little bit about time. Yes, we have seen, like, a better lift. If we post, like, before, like, eight, like, around, like, 8 a.m. to 9 a.m. Eastern. Okay.

Versus posting later. Because you have to keep in mind, when do people get on LinkedIn in the morning? They just get to their desk. Maybe when they wake up or something. So, we found it's better, as opposed to, if I don't get that post out until maybe 11 or 10, engagement doesn't take off. Same thing is, in the night post, if I do the night post, usually, like, at 5 or 6, as opposed to 8, 8 is better. Right. Right? Because if you're on LinkedIn, maybe you put your kids to sleep. Right. Whatever it is, now you're back doing a little bit of work, you hop on LinkedIn. So, at 5 to 6, you're like, I'm checked out, I'm getting ready to go home. So, those have been some of the things that we've seen.

And then what you mentioned, just the text post piece. But I think that that's it, man. Just, you're experimenting. You're trying stuff. You know, look, I started getting 5 likes and 10 likes and then 20 and then 100 and a few posts with thousands. And, you know, but it doesn't matter. Like, and the other piece is, don't try to, you're never going to know what's going to hit. Right. Yeah. Don't try to manufacture. But that's a dumb post about, is the grass is greener or something like that, about why people, I think, should stay in the job as opposed to leaving. Yeah. And just does really well. I saw another one about, like, working hard on a Sunday. Some other influencers gave me some heat about this.

I saw it. Yeah. I saw it. Which I think is ridiculous now that you can't encourage people who want to work hard. I'm not saying don't have work-life balance. I'm saying, if you're working on a Sunday, props. Like, keep doing your thing. Because I think a lot of people, I'm going on a tangent a little bit, but a lot of people need to hear that encouragement, man. You're fucking, you're prospecting on a Sunday. Right. You know, like, maybe they have to. Yeah. Well, I mean, I always say, like, my biggest concern these days is the work ethic I don't see nearly as strong. You know, I'll go do trainings. And, you know, I usually do training at 8.30 to 4.30. And then at 4.30, I'll Q&A, reps will come and kind of chat with me real quick.

And then I usually have 5. I light up my laptop before I hit the airport and I'll check emails and whatever. And I'll leave it at, like, 5.30 to hit the airport. Office of ghost town. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, sales, I mean, are you guys crushing your numbers right now? But it's like, too many people are so, like, trying to. Put that on leadership, though, man. I know. That's culture. I know, I know. So, but I mean, but going back to the engagement, I think you're, I think the authenticity matters, obviously. 100%. Right? Like, don't try to manufacture something that is going to take off. And the more authentic, I think I still, there's still times that maybe you feel this, too, where I'm like, I'm not going far enough.

Right. Yeah. I'm not even being more and more true to myself at times. I think I'm, you know, hopefully I'm, like, 90% of the way there at this point. But there's, you know, it just comes from repetitions that you get more and more and more comfortable. Yeah. But I think that that's also what stops a lot of people is they're just nervous. And so I had everyone raise their hand in my session. I said, how many people have had their hand slapped by somebody in their organization? 15% of people raise their hand? Yeah. It's messed up. It is. There's a couple of people, like, I don't want to name names because I don't want to call companies out. Yeah. But there's a gentleman we all know on social.

He's built a really good brand for himself. And I remember him talking to me about how he wanted to, like, build this thing within the company. But the marketing department wasn't comfortable with him because of his own personal brand. And he's like, well, I'm going to work with him anyways. And I was just like, I got to be honest, man. If they're not supporting you, go find another job. Yeah. Because marketing and the brand of the business, if the brand of the business is scared about the brand of the individual, you're not living in 2018 right now. But most are, though, John. Oh, I know. Like, most of these companies, they are, you know, I preach empowerment. I'm like, look, your job in marketing now is to give them the skills on how to sound like an expert.

Give them white papers that aren't yours. Right. Give them something that McKinsey put out or give them some Gartner. I'm a big fan of, like, make them experts. Make their profile experts. But I'm telling you, a lot of people, man, their marketing department doesn't want that. That's chaos. Yeah. No, because they're afraid. They want to control the message. Yeah. And what I say to that is, like, look, they don't own your LinkedIn profile. Do whatever the fuck you want. Exactly. Are you going to tell me what to do on Instagram? Are you going to tell me what to do on Facebook? This is my LinkedIn profile. You got my login? No, it's my LinkedIn profile. And I get really fired up about this because I want people to go out and build their community.

Because I think, look, when AI comes and these things, the network, nobody can take that from you. And if you start today, when you're 25, 26, man, you are going to crush people down the road, man. I mean, that's what, you know, I think I took a, I definitely took a quality over quantity approach early in my career as far as networking and those type of things and really making sure that whoever I interacted with. I remember, and I said this on stage, you know, when I was, when I went off with Jay Barrows on my own, I had all these people reach out and be like, oh, John, give us your Twitter handle. We'll get you 10,000 Twitter followers. And, you know, in a month. I'm like, what the fuck do I want 10,000 random ass Twitter followers?

You know what I mean? I want people to follow me because they like my voice. They get value from what I say. They ask me questions that challenge me, right? And so it's taken, I think, for me a lot longer than most as far as building the brand. But now the level of engagement and the value that I get from my network is night and day compared to some others, right? That's exactly right. Like you see some people out there with a shitload of followers and they throw something out there and no engagement. Yeah. You see people out there with 50 followers. Engagement is all that matters, man. And they get engagement all over the place. I've got 19,000, I think 19,000 followers, something like that.

Yeah. It's not, I mean, it's good. It's more than most, but like it's not great. Right. Right. But I mean, I think as long as you put it out there. And again, like you said earlier, you know, Snapchat, when I first was like, so Gary Vee said Snapchat for business. I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah, let's do it. Why not? Right. So I remember lighting up Snapchat and being like, look, I don't know what the hell I'm doing on Snapchat, but if y'all want to follow this, let's go. Let's go for a ride. Right. And then I would just be like, I don't know, I'm figuring it out. Like, what the fuck is this for? Like, how can I leverage this in business? Sure. And then I would share that. And I think that's the thing is like, the thought leadership, I think is, anybody who says they're a thought leader isn't.

And anybody who tries to pretend like they know something and tell you what to do, the ones I get the most value of are the practitioners who are going out there and doing it. Yeah. And then sharing their story saying, that didn't work. That's all I do. You know what I mean? Like, I just cold call somebody and this is what I said and that dude hung the fuck up on me. Exactly. Don't do that. That's why people don't need to think about it. I mean, that's exactly what I do. It's a conversation I had with a client, a conversation I had internally, a conversation I had with a partner. Some conversation that's about being in the field, doing the work. Yep. And this is my insight. Or from being in sales leadership for, you know, 12 plus years, it's, look, these are the things that we're seeing companies be successful with.

Tactical. Like, today I talked about the number one discovery from working with lots of companies that we've worked with. What's the number one discovery question everyone misses, right? And so, getting tactical. It's what it is. I'm curious. The very first question out of your mouth needs to be, hi, Brenda, looking, you know, blah, blah, blah agenda. And then it's, hey, so I work with a lot of directors of operations, and in each kind of line, in industrial manufacturing, I know that can mean a few different things. What are your two core focuses or areas of responsibility? Who is this person? Right, right. We go into a director of operations, we're like, decision maker. Right. Got him. Right.

Right? As opposed to a director of operations at one company can have 30 direct reports or zero, because everyone's a director. So, doing that, because then I say, tell me about your team. I know who needs to be on the next meeting. Right. If I don't know who you are and who your team is, how can I drive action at the end of the meeting? So, that was the. Yeah, no, I like that. That was a tip from you. Yeah, I like that. Let me know what you think of this. So, going back to the marketing, CMOs, in businesses, personal branding internally. Yeah. My thought process here is, in order to build your company brand, you need somebody internally as a personal brand that drives the company. And it could be the CEO, could be the CMO, but it's almost like you want somebody.

Like, I look at Chris Orlov over at Gong. Yeah, exactly. I look at, you know, Dave over at Adrift, right? Yeah, exactly. That's what I was going to say. And it's like, they're like, if they weren't pushing the data that they have, and they're not like personalities. I mean, not to take anything away from those guys. They're not like huge characters like Gary V, right? Gary V attracts a lot of people just because he's a character. Yeah. And then they get to know his content and they're like, holy shit. But those guys aren't like your captain sales guys, right? It's just data. Yeah. But they are the face of Gong. Like, every time I think of Gong, I'm like, there's Chris, right? Every time I think of Drift, it's Dave, but I think of Drift.

Yeah. And I think of the value and the content that they're putting out there. That's the future, man. So, to me, right now, if I'm a marketer, you've got to, I think, I personally think that if you're a CMO right now, you've got to tuck your ego aside and say, we need to find somebody who's going to be the face and take the risk that that person, you know, is going to become pretty indispensable if they do it right. Like, I look at Gong. Like, if Gong ever fired Chris, there's going to be some hell to pay. There's going to be some hell to pay. This is the world we're living in, man. That's exactly what's going to happen. Recruiters have been dealing with this for a long time. That's what a recruiter does.

Right. A recruiter comes to your company. They build up a big network. Yep. And if they leave. See you later. Start it all over. Now, just imagine what we're doing now is you need to empower all these people, and that's exactly what's going to happen. But I love it because it's putting salespeople, if they do it right, and sales leaders in control. Yeah. It's giving them more leverage as a sales leader. We don't have as much leverage as we should sometimes. You know what I mean? And I think that it also builds confidence and all that, and the connections. So, you know, I don't think anybody else to do it, like, for instance, Morgan, you or me do, as far as getting out there every day, doing videos and that type of stuff.

But I tell kids right now, if you're not focusing on your brand, man, you're going to be a cog in a wheel. Why not, man? It's just this is the time. I'm telling them, again, like, you think about what's going to happen in all the SDR roles, et cetera, down the road. Like, the people, the salespeople that are going to be the most needed are the people out of the highest emotional intelligence and the best networks. It's funny because we're going back from Rolodex to, like, virtual Rolodex. You know, I describe it as, like, LinkedIn is a networking event live every day on a global scale. It's just a Rolodex kind of coming into this global scale that you used to build in Atlanta or Tampa Bay or some shit where you work.

Totally. So, I just think it's such an opportunity. And if you're young, I had a couple questions that I think are relevant, especially if you're earlier in your career. This woman raised her hand. She said, but, Jake, I've only been in sales for a few years. I don't feel like an expert. And I said, and I asked her about her company, and I think she worked at Guru or something. And I was like, great. And I know your product a little bit. You do sales enablement and content. I was like, you probably know more about the best practices of how to store your content, how to make it usable, how to do those things, than probably 90% of sales enablement people. She's like, yeah, I probably do. I'm like, then you're an expert on this thing.

Everyone can be an expert on this. I just stay in my lane. I talk about sales and marketing. And, like, I don't talk about finance. I don't know anything about it. I stay in this one little lane. You know, I think a lot of young people, you all, everyone is an expert at something. It just might be more narrow. And I think that that's the kind of mindset shift a lot of people have to go through. Yeah, I mean, I tell kids, look, you're not, it's kind of like challenger sale, right? 22-year-old kid, you're not going to be a challenger. You just don't, I'm sorry. Like, you don't have enough business acumen to be able to push back. Like the fundamental, like, hey, you know, let me tell you how to run your business.

Thought leadership. You're not going to be a thought leader overnight. But you can move in that direction. And I try to make the connection of the dual focus here. If you focus on educating yourself first, right? So instead of trying to figure out what should I post and how can I be, you know, and how can I look smart, be smart. Read an article. Read a blog post that is focused on your industry, the personas you go after, whatever it is. Consume that for the primary focus of education, yourself. And then when you come across an article that you think is legit and you learn something from, then you share it. Yeah. Put your context around it and say, hey, really interesting article here. I just read about CISOs and what their top priorities in 2019 are.

It's really fascinating to understand. Boom, this. That's when people start looking at you. I mean, Morgan's a perfect example of that, right? That kid, he wasn't out there when he was doing his SDR Chronicles. He wasn't out there going, I'm smarter than you. Do this because I, you know, whatever. He would read a book, read a blog post, execute on it that day. So he would try whatever that was that day and then light up YouTube, light up his video camera at the end of the day and be like, so I read this book about this. I tried it today and it was, it was bad. It was a bad idea. Don't do that. Like, and here's what I learned from it. So he was, what he was doing, he was just staying one step ahead of everybody else.

Yeah. Right. And the thing I'd try to wreck, you know, to help get people's heads wrapped around is you don't have to be the content creator these days. Right. There's tons of content out there. Be the content curator. I'm fine. Totally good with that. I was, that's, I talked in the session about all the media on your page doesn't need to be from your company. Right. No, no, it shouldn't make it, make, make your page a resource for people. Cause again, even if you don't have enough original opinions, even though I think most people do have okay, original opinions, be, make your, your LinkedIn profile a resource for people where I can come and I can learn about different things. Or imagine I'm on a call with you and I can say, oh yeah, actually I just, you should check out on my LinkedIn profile.

I just have, I've got the 2019 Gartner's magic quadrant around this sector. That's not me promoting my own Gartner magic quadrant. So I think that that's, that's a really big thing that people can do is they can just curate and that's what they should do early on. But again, I think you actually hit on the head. It's about educating yourself and you have to be curious, you know, and you want to know about the space. I think the other thing we're going to see sellers do is I think sellers might start to say, stay in the same space a little bit longer too, as opposed to in SAS, I just jump. Oh, you're a SAS, you're a SAS, you're a SAS, right? Because once I build that network, it becomes valuable.

I've got all the directors of manufacturing who buy IOT products. I can start to demand a little bit more, you know? So that's the other value of the network. So I just think there's just so many opportunities right now. It's just silly to not do it. It's my job. I'm the CEO. I'm running a multimillion dollar company, 30 employees. I make the time to post on LinkedIn and Instagram multiple times a day. It's that important. I agree. And then, you know, you can use a little help every once in a while against someone, you know what I mean? That type of thing for me. I got a team too. But I'm doing it. All my posts are me. 100% of my LinkedIn posts, 100%. Right? 100% of my Instagram, all the copy, everything, 100% me.

Cool, man. That's authenticity, man. That's it. You know? And be you. The thing I also see is the kids who have grown up on Facebook, right? I see there's, thank God I didn't grow up on Facebook, right? But because, you know, if my previous life was documented. Right. I trust you. I know exactly what you mean. But it's, you know, making a shift from the personal to the professional. If you see somebody professionally present themselves this way, and then you get a glimpse of them personally, and that's a different person, you've lost all credibility in every way. And people eventually come and find that out. Yeah, you'll get it figured out. So just be you. Yeah, exactly right. You know what I mean?

And you'll attract the people that, like now, I do training. I mean, I used to dress in slacks and a nice jacket and that type of stuff. And now I'm shell toes. I'm me. Like, I'm shell toes, jeans, and a t-shirt, and a blazer. And I drop the F-bomb three, four, five times a session. If you don't like that, then don't do business with me. It is what it is. Just don't do business with me because my vibe, you're not going to connect with me. And you know as well as I do with training specifically, it's 50% of the content, 50% of the person that delivers it, right? So if there's no connection there. So that's why I ask every time I do a training, I'm like, what's the vibe of your team? Are they super conservative?

Are, you know, if I drop the F-bomb a couple of times, would I offend anybody? Those type of things. Are they all suit and ties, right? That type of stuff. Because I just want to make sure you know what you're getting, right? So, cool, man. Any final thoughts on building brand, LinkedIn, any of that stuff for the audience here? Yeah, I mean, we've talked about it a little bit. But I think the biggest opportunity, the lowest hanging fruit that is kind of hiding in plain sight is your profile. When I talk to people, they're like, your LinkedIn profile needs to position your impact on an industry, not your resume as a salesperson. Absolutely. And what I tell people is as soon as I turn the lights on for you, you have to go and make the changes to your profile.

If I read your summary, there's 129,000 summaries that have President's Club in the headline. 129,000, right? And I get it. If it was your, when it was your resume? Right. Awesome. And if you're looking for a job? Do it. I got you. Yep. But I think your profile, you're spending 20% of your day doing outreach. Update your profile. Make it, position yourself and your work experience as an expert or at least as a resource in your space. That is step one and anybody can go and do that. I always say to reps, you know, look at your LinkedIn profile and ask yourself, if you were a prospect, would you be impressed? Exactly. And if you made a, you know, if you put in there, I made a, you know, 157% of quota in President's Club three years in a row.

Does that impress me as a prospect? I'm a director of manufacturing and IOT. Right. You think I care? That actually deters me. It's like, hey, Captain Sales Guy, right? Oh, look at here, 125% of quota, President's Club 15, 16, 17. Like, good for you. Go and say, okay, instead of talking about how great you are, talk about why you love working at your company. Yeah. Talk about some of the results you love driving for customers. Instead of getting references from old bosses, get references from old customers. I've had a reference since like 2011, 12, something like that. But like get your customers. So here's another tip for everybody. Like if you, if you have a really good sales call with somebody, right?

Yeah. And it's a good, and they say, you know what? And they thank you, right? Sometimes they'll be like, you know what? I really appreciate your time here. Whatever. Throw in a little, hey, would you mind just, I'm trying to build my LinkedIn profile. Would you mind just going on LinkedIn and typing exactly what you just said there and making a little reference for me? I'd really appreciate that. Yeah. And look, even to flip that, what I like reps to do is I say, at the end, you say, hey, there was a couple of insights I took. Would you care if I posted about this on LinkedIn and tagged you? There you go. Now imagine, think of social proof. Oh, I like that. Now I tag you, you come to my LinkedIn profile, you see my last 10 posts, I tag this person from Honeywell, this person from Raytheon, this dude's an industry leader.

Nice. And you're just recapping, and you ask permission and everything. And I think, so the other thing I'll do kind of imparting is don't post with no expectations. Yeah. I never talk about scale. I never do, I don't have a bunch of call to actions. That was it too. My sales brain back in May last year, I could not compute not having a call to action. Yeah. Where is the lead capture form? Right. How am I? No expectations. Pure value. And I can tell you, John, we've closed hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from direct DMs or comments on posts with just giving value. So don't post with an expect, make sure your posts are authentic and it's not like there's some ulterior motive because people smell that stuff.

So that's it. Fix your profile and just give value, no expectations. So my last question, because it leads to something, we're doing a survey around here. Yeah, cool. Phone, email, social. Love it. Yeah. You have to choose one. You can never use the other two. You can only choose one. What would it be and why? The first question for me is, where does your buyer live? Yep. If your buyer is someone who sits at their desk all day, phone. Yep. Sorry, it is. Right? So for you personally, for you right now. If you're trying to get me? No, no, scale. For my clients. Like if you, if scaled, if you had no other option, you had to choose phone, email, to do your deal. Social. But keep in mind, we're working with, similar to your, CEOs, senior people.

The more that we interact and build credibility up the stream, gets more of those people to come inbound. For my business, it makes sense. But what I tell everybody, it doesn't matter about my business. It's where your buyers live. And guess what? Maybe for your buyers, it's 100% trade show. Yeah. It's 100% whatever it is. Newspapers. Because you sell medical device. I don't care what it is. I don't care about LinkedIn. I don't care about calls. This whole debate about this or that, it's whatever works. So for my business, I pick social because that's where my buyers are. Yeah, I would do the same thing. Cool, man. Always a pleasure talking to you. A lot of fun, brother. See you. Cheers. Cheers.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.