Adam Apps: How Not to Be a Shitty Sales Leader

All right, before we get started on today's podcast discussion, I got to do a little promo here and this one's a big one. So HubSpot's annual inbound conference is coming up September 5th through the 8th here in Boston. And it's right in my backyard. I go to it every single year. It's one of the marquee events that I absolutely put on my calendar. And even if I didn't live here in Boston, I'd come to this one because this gets some of the best and brightest across sales, marketing, customer success together to talk about what's happening in the industry and share best practices, tactics, and all sorts of different things about where the industry is headed and what we need to do to drive results in this crazy big world that we're all living in right now.

And with inbound, they get some super cool guests on this and speakers. I mean, including this year is going to be Reese Witherspoon. We got Derek Jeter coming up and I know he's a Yankee, but we'll let him come to Boston because he's actually one of the Yankees I like. And then we got people like Sam Jacobs, a good friend of mine who's going to be speaking. And myself, I got a speaking engagement, so they accepted my speaking engagement at this event. It's about sales-ready messaging, where I'm going to be talking about a specific equation that we use to create sales-ready messaging that aligns sales, marketing, and CS. And you can use to implement into some of these AI tools to really drive some pretty impressive results.

So if nothing else, you're going to get some free training from me if you come to this thing. Now, there's two types of passes. You can get the general admission pass that gets you all the speakers, trainings, and programs. And then the VIP pass, which is limited availability and gives you VIP lounge access, exclusive welcome parties, and access to some of the speakers that you might not have otherwise. So you've got to come to this one again, September 5th through the 8th here in Boston. Sign up at www.inbound.com to get your ticket today. Let's make it happen. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us.

Today's conversation is with Adam Apps. Now, Adam has over 20 years of experience working in high-tech sales and recently wrote a book called Shitty Sales Leaders and How Not to Be One. Now, the title of the book alone let me know this is going to be a fun conversation. And in the prep call before we started recording, I actually told him he could take the filter off and let it fly, which he was super relieved about because he had done some other podcasts that didn't really allow him to swear, which I found ridiculous, especially based on the title of the book. But with that, Adam admits he's actually probably not the best leader himself and has a lot that he needs to work on, but that's actually why I think he's such a good leader and how he had so much success over the years.

We talk about the difference between leadership and management and how not all good leaders are good managers and vice versa. He made the great distinction as the conversation unfolded that leaders focus on outcomes where managers focus on the process. Now, from there, we dove into what ineffective leaders do, sometimes not even knowing about it, and we also talked about how to give and receive feedback, which is an art form in and of itself, and also what level of transparency a leader should have, especially in tough times. This was a super interesting conversation that I think a lot of people need to hear right now. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen.

What's happening, make it happen, family? Big shout out to our partners today, Gong Vidyard and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes. Vidyard makes it easy for people to use videos anywhere. No matter whether you're sending videos in email or on social media, posting them somewhere, or sending them in a DM, Vidyard has got you covered. Our friends at Chili Piper are so much fun to be around. They make it easy for people to get on your calendar, and every sales rep has got to have this function locked in it's one of the most important things we can do as a seller.

How can I get you on my calendar easily? Chili Piper can make that happen for you. Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools, and now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. Adam, what's going on, brother? Thanks for joining the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here. Yeah, it's going to be an interesting conversation. First of all, I love the title, Shitty Sales Leaders, of the book, and I've had plenty of them, and we're going to get into that. But just to put some perspective and some context around this one, Adam, could you walk us through, you know, kind of a little bit of a background, and I would love for you to dive in.

You know, I read a lot about your dad and how your dad used to travel all over the place, but he was very humble, but a really strong work ethic, and what that did for you personally as you were growing up through this. So if you could just kind of take us on that journey, that'd be cool. Yeah, definitely. So I tell people they should try to have their life story in two minutes or less, so I'll try to do that here, and I'll work backwards. So right now, I am a sales director at a tech company. We manufacture storage and data management devices, right? So that's kind of what I'm up to right now. But taking it all the way back, grew up in the UK, didn't have a lot of money, and we did move around every few years.

My dad worked for a bank, and he hustled, and to your point, gritty, he grinded for everything that we had, and he would get rotations. So every few years, we would move to a new country, but we didn't have a lot of money. So anytime my sister and I wanted something, we had to work for it. I got my first job at seven years old, delivering newspapers, and I've been working ever since. So encapsulating that journey and kind of how I got to this point, moved to the U.S., settled down, became citizens, went to college in the U.S. Got a part-time job while I was in college as an SDR, an unpaid SDR. Yeah, unpaid, banging through a phone book with a ruler, then graduated from college and realized that no one was looking for me.

So I think I had two job offers when I graduated. One was to be a security guard at the mall, and there's nothing wrong with that, but not my ideal job. And the other one was to work at a rental car agency, which, again, nothing wrong with that, but not what I was looking for. So I started knocking on doors, literally a stack of resumes, knocking on doors, and just seeing if people were hiring in random buildings around New Jersey. Stumbled into this office plaza that was a Boston-based tech company that had a random little office in the middle of nowhere in one of these little corporate plazas. I met this sales manager named Lou, and he hired me, and I had no idea what tech was, but I was kind of willing to bet on my work ethic and bet on myself.

So he hired me as an inside sales rep. I never wanted to be in sales, by the way, and 20 years later, here I am, a director of sales, kind of looping it all the way back to the beginning. But, yeah, to your question around what shaped me and watching my dad growing up, when you come from that environment, loving family, good parents, nothing abusive, people have it way harder than I did, but kind of watching him get up really early, come home really late, and do something in the middle of the day that was protecting the family and putting a roof over our heads really shaped me. So what I did with that is any opportunity I have, I view as, you know, a golden nugget that I don't want to waste.

And in sales, obviously, you're betting on yourself. It's a tough profession. But over those 20 years, I saw a lot of stuff, right? So going from inside sales to outside sales, to sales leadership, to second-line leadership, to sales director, you see all kinds of approaches to the gig. You see all kinds of leaders and leadership. And what I found was I became really interested in the leadership side of it. Like, why is that guy so shitty? And why is that guy so great? And can we document it, formulize it, and put down on paper sort of exactly what it is that makes those people the way they are? And that brings us to now. Hey, I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JV Sales membership.

It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, Filling the Funnel and Driving to Close. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific skills and different tech like ChatGPT and how to leverage it in the sales process. And it gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. You get all of this for $420 a year as an individual or $5,000 for teams. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to www.jbarrows.com and click on the individual or team membership and use code PODCAST, you'll get 20% off. Let's make this happen together. One of the things that stuck out when you talked about your dad, it was about how because you moved all the time, you kind of almost had this defense mechanism where you wouldn't develop too good of friends because you didn't want to have the heartbreak when you left them with really good friends.

So it kind of made, as you grew, you were a little standoff, people thought you were either aggressive or standoffish or whatever. And then you had somebody at some point in your career basically give you some very direct feedback of the type of person you were at least portraying. Could you dive into that piece real? Because I think that that leads to management, right? And being able to give feedback. So could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, definitely. There's a few things in there that are really important. One is sort of the self-awareness piece and the introspection piece and the willingness to accept feedback to uncover blind spots and understand what your brand is and how to take control of it, right?

So that's one piece of it. And yeah, I had a manager at a company where I worked, one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world, still is. And he pulled me aside and said, hey, man, people say that you are aggressive, intense, standoffish, arrogant. And I was totally blindsided because I'm not that way. If anything, insecure. I felt inside like I was the opposite, imposter syndrome, all that stuff. But he said, hey, that's the perception, which means that's the reality. And upon spending some time reflecting on, all right, why am I this way? What makes me tick? Why do people perceive me that way? What I discovered, and it was really writing this book and taking the time to sit down and spell it out, was, yeah, we moved around a lot.

So every couple of years, if I had a close friend, we had to get up and move. So to avoid that pain of saying goodbye, just don't let people get too close. And here I am four decades later, I still struggle with that. And you got to work on it, right? But I think it's important to point out, and I want to get this out at the top. I don't think I am a great sales leader, right? So I want to be really clear on that. I am still a work in progress, right? It's not like, oh, I figured it out. Here's a book. Let me tell you how great I am. Quite the opposite. And what I would say to anyone listening is, I know exactly what it takes to be an Olympic athlete, but I'll never be on an Olympic podium. And I feel the same way about leadership, right?

That guy who gave me that feedback was a great leader, and I took that with me and incorporated it into my own approach, but I'm still working on it. Yeah, unreal. You said the willingness to accept feedback. I want to dive into that, too, because both getting and receiving feedback is a bit of an art form to a certain degree. Definitely giving feedback is an art form, so it comes across and people are open to it. But one of the things that I've noticed, and I'm going to try not to generalize too much here and talk like my dad, but it feels like a lot of younger professionals. I have a really hard time getting feedback, right? I mean, there's been reps who I've talked to when I'm trying to give what I think is just very direct, you know, but very constructive feedback, right?

Without yelling, without being negative or any of that stuff. And physically, you watch them recoil, like almost like I'm kicking the shit out of them. You know what I mean? And I've had to stop a few of these conversations being like, are you okay? Like, realize, like, you're not getting fired. This isn't, like, you're not getting put on a pip here. Like, I'm literally just giving you feedback on a call on that last meeting that you had. And you look like you're going to throw up right now. And they'll be like, no, no, no, I love feedback. I think it's great. And you're like, what the fuck? No, you don't. Like, you look like you're about to die right now. So are you seeing, first of all, am I just putting that as I'm the older, you know, back in my day type of shit and this younger generation?

Or do you see that there's a little bit more of a theme these days that people receiving feedback is a lot more challenging than it has been? Yeah, great question. I mean, so first of all, giving and receiving feedback is difficult regardless of age. And I think generationally there are definitely differences and we can dig into that. But in general, humans don't like feedback, right? If someone says, hey, man, can I give you some feedback? You're going to bristle up. You're like, oh, here we go. Bring it on, right? You have to make a decision, though, when you get that feedback. Am I going to receive this as a gift and do something with it? And by the way, the feedback might not be right. Maybe if you work for a shitty leader and he's giving you feedback, he could be way off base.

You don't have to accept it. But generationally, as younger folks coming to the workplace, and I'll put myself in your old man category. I'm maybe even older than you, but we're about the same age. Nah, you're not even close, man. I saw you graduate. I'm 47, motherfucker. There you go. But yeah, I've got a 16, almost 17-year-old son and way different, way different. And so when he goes into the workplace, a part of that's my fault. And that's probably a separate hour around growing up poor and spoiling your kids and giving them what they didn't have. That's a different topic. Yeah, we could have that conversation. I'm the same one on that one, right? Yeah, I think a big part of it, yeah, it's our fault, but we have a new generation coming into the workplace that aren't accustomed to receiving that sort of direct communication.

So, you know, it's as sales leaders on us to kind of package it up in a way that they accept it as a gift and they understand that you really are trying to help them and help them get better and improve. So tactically on that one, you said, you know, hey, can I give you some feedback, right? And it's almost like an immediate defense. Tactically, how do you approach giving, like, and hopefully you've set the stage of trust in an environment, but let's just take this as a singular. You're about to give some constructive feedback to somebody that isn't like you're the greatest. What would, how are some, a couple of different ways that you can approach this to allow somebody to be open to receiving that feedback without having them shudder because, hey, I got to give you some feedback here.

Yeah, a couple of things. So one is own the feedback when you deliver it. Never point to somebody else. And our nature, again, as humans is to kind of point to someone and say, well, you know, the head of sales is saying this. It's not me, but I want you to know what he or she is saying. Never do that. Right. You want to be crystal clear that this is my observation, my opinion, my feedback. There's, you know, age old tactics for delivering feedback. The shit sandwich, however, you know, positive, negative, positive, I say, throw all that away. And it comes back to authenticity and you kind of just touched on it, right? It's like, you've already developed a culture of trust and learning and development and empowerment.

And if people know that about you as a leader, they won't bristle up because they know like what's about to come out of your mouth is probably going to be helpful and designed to take you to a next level, not to trick you up or make you feel bad. So if it happens every day, if I'm giving feedback to somebody, I usually put myself in their shoes first and say, hey, I've been there. And I probably have because I've made a ton of mistakes, right? Here's what I did in that situation. And here's what I think you should do, right? And if you don't, it's your decision. But here are the consequences if you don't, right? And it's not a threat. It's just be aware. You know, I've seen this before. This is what I think you're doing.

And here's what I think you should be doing kind of thing. Empathizing. And it really is important that as a sales leader, in my opinion, this is controversial. You have to have carried a bag at some point in your life because. Totally agree. Who wants to listen to a guy or a girl that's never done your job? You have to have that credibility. And that's where it really starts. Yeah, I think that that's for me from a training standpoint. You know, I remember when I had the opportunity to be a trainer, right? Because I had just sold my company. Well, actually, I had just gotten fired from. I sold my company to Staples and the Staples fired me. And I was looking for a job. And, you know, this company, Basho, that I'd taken the training from, they were like, hey, you want to be a trainer?

And my immediate reaction was, absolutely not. And they're like, why not? I'm like, because I don't like trainers. Because most trainers are either failed sales professionals or professional presenters. And I want nothing to do with it. And if you can't tell me you've actually done this job before, I don't want, I can't, I'm sorry. Things are moving so fast right now. And that's the other thing. It's like leading by example, right? I mean, I'm the jackass in a training where I'll sit up, you know, if it's in person, it's rare these days. But, you know, I'll be the one, you know, 10 minutes in, I'll raise my hand. I'll be like, hey, great. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Could you do me a favor and just give me an example of the last time you applied, whatever you're about to teach us here, and what was the result?

And it is a very awkward conversation to have with most trainers because they're like, well, you know, I've been working with my client. No, no, no, no, no. When was the last time you applied, whatever you're about? And by the way, you could tell me you applied it and it was a fucking train wreck and the client kicked you out of their office, right? As long as you could tell me that you've done it in the past three to six months, I'll sit here and listen. But I think things right now specifically are moving so fast that if you're not at least staying sharp with what's going on out there from a management or leadership standpoint, it's going to be hard for your team to pay attention to you. So how do you integrate that, Adam, as far as, I mean, you work for some pretty decent-sized companies here, right?

So, you know, I've always been a small startup guy, so it's pretty easy right over across the table. You watch me making a few cold calls. I jump in on some meetings with you. But as you go higher and higher in the ranks, how do you stay connected? How do you stay real? Do you keep your own quota? Do you, you know, do you fuck around with a few deals to make sure that you can show the reps you can still do this? Like, what's your thoughts? Yeah, it's a lot of things. So, first of all, I just want to say congrats to you. I know your story and you're betting on yourself. I think you call it your 100% commission. Now, I totally respect that. It's not easy and it takes a lot of guts to kind of step away.

So kudos to you for doing that. Not easy. But the core of your question is I don't expect my teams to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. And that is everything, right? So the charter for anyone who's on a team in my organization is your job is anything that moves us closer to our goals. And if that means you're sweeping the floor, you're sweeping the floor. Sweeping the floor. And if that means I'm sweeping the floor, I'm sweeping the floor. So I'll give you a quick example. We're in a tough recessionary climate right now. And if someone's listening to this in three years from now, maybe they'll look back and smile and we're through it. But right now, it's kind of tough out there. And we have an SDR organization where I work out in Chicago.

It's like 50, early in career, fresh out of college, young, fresh faces. That's a tough job to have right now. Banging phones, trying to sell stuff, right? So I got on a plane two days ago and spent the day with the SDR team. And we talked about brand and career development and calling strategies. And we didn't do it because we didn't plan accordingly. But next time I said, we're going to put a phone in the middle of the room. We're going to do it old school. Because I've done this and it is hard. And I want you to see me fail. And I want you to see me embarrass myself, right? So that's the humility, the authenticity, the willingness to be vulnerable that I think separates the great leaders from the not so great leaders.

And again, I'm not saying I'm great, but those are the elements that I try to incorporate every day. And that makes everything else a hell of a lot easier. Because, you know, you're going to lose deals. You're going to have tough climates. But we will come out of this, right? And you want to come out of it with your head held high, knowing that you were in the trenches and did everything you can for your crew. Yeah, and let's pivot a little bit on to the fundamentals piece of this. Because I think a lot of, you know, as bad as it is right now, I think it's exponentially worse in a lot of ways than historically that I've seen. Not because of the economic climate, but because of, I think, what we've done to sales over the past 10 years.

With the technology and the segmentation of roles and the specialization. And we're trying to optimize every single piece of this sales equation, if you will. And what's pretty evident to me is that we've lost sight of the fundamentals. Like a lot of just the blocking and tackling of how to be, you know, a business professional, you know, first and then sales. So how do you balance, as a leader yourself, how do you balance all this technology, all the processes, all the stuff that we're asking these reps to do, but still staying grounded in the fundamentals? Because I'm seeing these kids who just, you know, they don't have them. And now that it's hard to sell, they have nothing to fall back on.

And so how do you, like, you know, with those 50 SDRs, for instance, right? There's onboarding and enablement and good for you, all that stuff. But how do you consistently reinforce those, those, those fundamentals while staying, helping them evolve? It's so tough. And especially for people who started during, uh, quarantine. Remember that, right? So those poor kids that have never been in a bullpen before, they've never, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I mean, in a way, uh, we were lucky to kind of start out when we did. And I try not to make this war stories of, you know, banging phones in a bullpen, but, um, it's not easy. And I think, um, you know, the best thing that we can do as leaders for these people is to kind of show them the way and, and reinforce some of the fundamentals that we've, we've gotten away from.

Because, yeah, I mean, we were all on Zooms for a year, right? And that's not normal. Uh, maybe it is, but that's not how you're going to connect with people, build relationships, align your value and sell stuff. So how do we get back to the fundamentals, which is, you know, getting in front of people and understanding their pain points and everything that we do as salespeople. Um, so a lot of it is, you know, showing up and there's different ways to show up. Uh, a lot of what I talk about with my teams is being uncomfortable and if they've grown up on Zooms and it's sitting in office or working from home, uh, it's very uncomfortable for them to go do new things. So again, it starts with our willingness to go do it, but there's so many things that we can do, right?

So, um, I used to call it, uh, walkabouts and I don't know if that's a trademark term or not, but it basically means, you know, you get in a car with a rep as a manager and you go drive to some client offices with bags. A swag and letters, right. And that doesn't necessarily work in the big global accounts, but more of a commercial motion. There's little things that you can do like that. Even if no one comes to the door, maybe that customer is all working from home, just getting out in the shit with your team. And, you know, old school sort of tactics that will reinvigorate you if nothing else. And hopefully you'll drum up some business, but it's a tricky one. I mean, just to touch on the recession, um, real, real quick.

And a couple of things that you said, right. We also have a generation of people that, um, are beating their chest that they're amazing reps. And it's because they've never really had to sell anything and that people are going to hate me for this, but, um, you got to check yourself and you got to get over yourself because I've seen, I'm sure you have too, that rep who was very successful at a big company and starts thinking that they are the key to their success. Go try that same thing at a small company that no one's heard of and see if that door will open. They're not buying from you. They're buying that great product that that company had, right? Pair that with a terrible macroeconomic environment and good luck.

If you don't have the fundamentals, you're going to be floundering. So that's what we're faced with as sales leaders, right? Then compound that with all the tools and forecasting and pipeline and inspection and over-engineering of the sales process that is put on our heads. Our job as sales leaders, uh, become shielding the teams from the noise and making, uh, the biggest impact we can. And it's stressful, right? It's quarterly grind. In some cases it's a daily or weekly grind. Yeah, it's a, it is not easy. And that's the thing. It's like, there is, you know, the, the humbleness of being able to take a step back and look at it from a bigger perspective about how much was this you and how much was this, the, the, the organization, the brand, whatever it was.

I mean, there's a lot of, you know, it makes me cringe right now where I see all these influencers on LinkedIn for instance, and you look back at their careers and they're like, wait a minute. You've been, you, you, you, you've had three different SDR jobs over the past four years, never really done full cycle sales, but now you're an influencer. And, uh, you know, like, who are you to tell me what to do? And, and look, I'm not going to hold anybody back from, from following their passion and that type of stuff. But, uh, you know, I think we're trying to skip a few, too many steps these days and everybody's excited about like, Ooh, look at this pretty thing. But then when you actually apply it and try it reality wise, it doesn't, it never lands.

And then they fall apart when they're, when, when nobody wants to actually pay them for their influencer stuff. Right. Um, it's, it's tricky right now. I see the same thing and I, yeah, I don't want to shit on those people. Kudos to them for building a following and doing something right. But that is why I decided to put a book out into the universe. You don't make money selling books or you make a couple of pennies. Um, I wanted to put something out in the universe because I saw a problem and what you're describing is kind of the problem. We have, you know, a generation of people that don't have the fundamentals and we have a generation of sales leaders who are terrible because they don't understand, uh, how to deal with those people.

So I, I, I respect the hustle, but I'm with you a hundred percent. We need that foundation first. Yeah. It's almost like I wish, you know, you got to, sometimes you got to go back and just get a job, right? Like go get a job and learn how to do this. And guess what? You could document that journey. And, and I, I bet you would, you would triple your following if you were humble enough to be an influencer who was out there for three, four years spewing whatever you think you were spewing and then realizing, you know what? I don't know how to actually sell. So let me go get a full-time job and, and with a company that'll support my values and allow me to build my brands. And I'm going to document the shit out of this journey and then do two, three years on that and then come out on the other end.

And now you can go and tell people what's going on because, and it'll be way more authentic than you go on out there spewing tips that have no context to them. And that's, that's actually what I'm mostly concerned with. I throw out tips all over the place, right? Like, Hey, here's a nugget. Here's a nugget. And I hear people regurgitating them and I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like that tip is specific to this scenario with this context. You can't make that a blanket statement about what to do here because it will not work in these areas. But yet sounds really good coming out your mouth. Right. Yeah. It'll garner some interactions, but yeah, hopefully they're listening and they go get a job.

Yeah. It's one of these days. Uh, let's, let's, let's talk about ineffective leaders. Cause you do, you say something about, um, how ineffective leaders do desperate, uh, apply desperate tactics that damage careers, wreck culture, and, and scare people from leadership opportunities here. What are, what are some of the more damaging, um, tactics and things that you think leaders do maybe inadvertently, you know what I mean? That they might not. I mean, cause look, I would say you gotta, you know, I, I think I did a session one time on, on sexism, you know, in the work for, you know, the bro culture and sales. And somebody asked like, Hey, what do you do if you have like a blatantly sexist boss?

It's like, just fucking leave the job. You're never going to change a blatantly sexist boss. Right. But there, but there are things that, that have blind spots, right. Where it's like, I don't even know, for instance, I'm being sexist because of my privilege or whatever. Same thing with leadership in, in, in, in a lot of ways, like some people do some very toxic things that they might not even know are toxic or having the impact that they are. So what are the ones that you see that are, that, that high, that are more common than not? Yeah, it's a good point. I don't think for the most part, um, they are shitty intentionally. I think, um, they would want to be good if they took the time to kind of understand what they were doing wrong.

I mean, there's so many, um, if I look back at my career, um, some of the real standout, um, shitty leaders were doing things on a daily basis that were the opposite of what great leaders do. To really put it in simple terms, um, you know, a great leader will empower you, right. They will appreciate you. The basic stuff that, that we've all had those great leaders in our career. Um, they're humble servants. They're willing to do everything that you're willing to do, uh, shitty leaders or not. And I talk about, you know, scaring people away from careers and leadership roles, because I was at a really big company. I was in a QBR or a QSR, whatever you want to call it. And the guy was just, the VP of sales was berating me publicly.

And by the way, I was, uh, having a really good quarter. And he's like, he's like, I don't see it. I got a line of people that want your job and could do your job. And like, meanwhile, I'm putting in, you know, really long hours. I'm not seeing my kid and I'm having a good quarter and I'm doing all the right things. And this guy is, he's being a bully in front of everybody. So, um, I walked out of that QBR. I looked at my SC manager and I said, I'm done. He goes, what do you mean? I said, fuck that guy. I'm done. I'm going to go bet on myself. Um, so I left that great company. Um, but I should have left years before because what was happening, I would come home angry, stressed, miserable. And my son at the time, he was probably five.

He, uh, he said, daddy, you don't smile anymore. I said, ah, shit, it's crept into my personal life. And, uh, this is not, not, not acceptable. Um, but yeah, specifically, I mean, I gotta be careful. I've got a job right now and I'd like to, uh, still have it when I end this, but there's always things that I, I witnessed right all over the place. And one is, um, Hey, you need to go add more pipeline. We need every rep to go add more pipeline. Okay. They'll add more pipeline, uh, two months from now. Remember that, right? Because if you want qualified vetted pipeline quality, uh, that's gone through the funnel and, you know, through the proper channels, we should be doing that anyway. But if you want to reflect a number, it's going to be garbage in, garbage out, right?

So I think, um, especially in climates like this, sales leaders are under tremendous pressure to deliver results, right? Of course, there's a lot of eyes on the business, more scrutiny. Customers feel it. Deals are taking longer to get done, but it's our job to emerge from this cycle with our integrity intact. And, you know, a lot of leaders are kind of taking the easy way out of just cracking the whip. And, um, I see it all over the place, right? So I would rather, uh, continue to do what I did before the recession as a sales leader and empower my team and trust them. I hired them for a reason. I think they're great. No one can put more pressure on them than themselves. And if I don't believe that, then they shouldn't be on my team.

Right. Um, so if they really need the whip cracked on them to motivate them, we got a bigger problem, right? So I'm, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. And if it gets me fired, it gets me fired. Right. So, um, it's, it's, it's the shitty leaders that need pulling aside and say, Hey, this is going to be short lived, then you should probably reevaluate your behavior. But in the, in the meantime, you know, people will be leaving, um, those companies if it was a normal, um, economic climate. And when we return, they're going to run like rats from the ship. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, a lot of people are feel, I think feel are stuck right now because of the, the job market right now.

And especially in tech sales, right? It's like, well, who the, you know, there's a hundred resumes for every job opening right now. But I think it goes a lot back down to betting on yourself. Adam, like you said, like you gotta, you gotta look at yourself one day and say, is this really me? You know, do I want to, no matter how bad the economy is out there, like, do I really want to stay in this situation and continue to get paraded, continue to like not get developed or do I want to say, fuck it and bet on myself here and go after it? And, you know, you mentioned the whole, you know, commit a hundred percent commission thing. Like I was, I was never that guy. I was never, I was a, I'm a calculated risk taker, not a risk taker.

Right. There has to be something there. And I always felt like shit, man, I need at least some base salary. So in case one day I lay an egg, you know, like I can at least feed myself. Right. But then when I got fired or then, then when Basho went belly up the training company, you know, they, I scooped up and I started the business and I didn't even think about it. I was like, all right, cool. Yeah. Let me go run this. Right. And I woke up and I was like, well, shit, wait a minute. And now I'm a hundred percent commission. And it was weird because I'm a pretty self-motivated guy. Right. But man, if you want motivation, realize that when you wake up in the morning, you ain't getting paid. If you don't go to work, like there's a, there's a, there's a extra reason not to hit the snooze button.

So for me, it's a healthy motivation. All right. We're going to take a quick break here to highlight the HubSpot podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals. And I love listening to the podcast on this network and specifically another bite hosted by John Dick, Jory Monroe, and Arielle Bosworth. And the reason I love this one is because they focus on one of my favorite shows on television, which is Shark Tank. And what's cool about it is they take the episodes and they break them down and talk about how they can apply to our own businesses and real world application of it. You know, a lot of us, you can look at it for entertainment for that show, but what they do with another bite, they talk about how it applies to us, which I absolutely love.

And one of the episodes that they had recently was called when community is more valuable than unit economics. And this was with the magic five spike ball and your kayak. And they talk about magic five's value and human data and problems to scale spike balls, community building tactics and targeting issues, and also your kayak social proof problem and missing customer acquisition costs. So again, all super applicable to all of us in the startup world. And I absolutely love listening to their analysis and dissection of these shows. So listen to another bite wherever you get your podcasts and keep supporting the HubSpot podcast network. Now let's get back to the conversation. A hundred percent.

And I think you and I have a mutual friend. I won't use his name, but I was chatting with him the other day and, um, he uses a similar analogy. And what I like about what he told me was, um, there were people that will not fail. Failure is not an option. You're one of those people, whatever you do, it has to be successful. It just has to be, there's no other alternative. Um, if you were one of those people and you're kind of standing on the ledge thinking about, well, let's say if I got kids, I need the 401k, I need the health insurance. Um, it would be irresponsible to walk away. But if you're one of those people and you know, whatever you do is going to be successful because you won't have it any other way, jump off the fucking cliff and go make it happen.

Right. And I'm sitting here saying that as someone who has a W2 and a job, right? So I haven't done it. Um, but there's definitely a group of people that have what it takes to, to go do that. What's up everybody. I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heap. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday. And you can do so by gaining access to all of JB sales content, all of their training tips, techniques, tactics, and takeaways can be yours for $1 a day. $365 for the year gets you annual access to everything, including our private Slack channel for members only, which you get access to all of us directly a hundred percent of the time, 24 hours a day.

And then at the same time, you're going to get access to our bi-weekly ask me anything sessions where you can bring real deals to the table and get the help that you need. where you need it. This is very, very important. Sales reps that invest in themselves are often found at the tops of their leaderboards. Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL one more time is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guest for this week. I think a lot of sales professionals have that at some level, right? Because you're getting into a job that is not secure in any way, shape, or form. You know, I mean, most of your comp is based on commission.

So there is a part of that in, in, I think each sales rep and, you know, it's just how far do you want to go with it? And, but even with leadership, there's one thing that you talk about, about how it's really important to think about why you want to be a leader, right? So same thing with entrepreneurship. Like, why do you want, do you have that itch, right? Do you have that? Like, I got it. I'm going to bet on myself, go for it. Okay, scratch it. Leadership is an interesting one because I think people just always just assume that that's the progression, right? They start here, they move up to this, then they're all of a sudden this, and all of a sudden they're a leader, right? Not everybody's cut out to be a leader by any stretch of the imagination.

So, so I wrote a blog post a while ago called Stop Doing What You're Supposed to Do, right? Which means like, okay, I'm supposed to get a job. I'm supposed to work hard. I'm supposed to get a promotion. I'm supposed to be a manager. Could you talk about kind of an inflection point for yourself or, or what you see out there as far as when you need to really kind of take a self, self-assessment and say, do I really want to be a leader? Like, and, and, and why? So could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I'll go back a little bit and, um, and be vulnerable. So when I worked for this big company, I was a sales rep and, um, good sales rep, top performer and, um, I had a shitty attitude. I was really cocky and I was like, I'll do what I want and I'm delivering the number.

And again, I had that same boss who gave me the feedback, pulled me aside and he's like, yeah, that's, that's not a great look, man. Let me help you out. Um, and I said, all right, well, you know, where do I go from here? I, I don't know. I've sort of maxed out my potential as a rep. I feel like I want to go do something else. Um, and he's the one who sat me down and said, um, you'd be a good leader, believe it or not. Uh, you have a future in leadership, but you have to do it for the right reasons. And I didn't know what those reasons were at the time. Uh, and I think a lot of people don't, right? So you really have to be honest with yourself. It's yeah, if you want the title, you want the recognition, it's ego, it's all the wrong reasons to get into leadership.

Um, and what he helped me understand was you've got something to offer people, right? And you can help other people and you can pull people up and you can give back and put your ego aside. It's not about you. It's about bringing other people up and showing them what you've done and help other people be successful and get on this track. And, you know, I was in my early twenties back then, um, and it took a long time to mature enough to get true, um, satisfaction right out of a leadership role. And now I thrive on it. And that's why I just went to Chicago with the SDRs. I want to help. I want to be part of their journey. I want to give lessons. I want to, you know, reduce people's ramps to success and give them a guidebook.

They can use in their own careers and just do all that good stuff that some people did for me and some people did. But I think the key there is, uh, it's not about you anymore. It's like being a parent, uh, I was going to ask that. Do you think having a kid helped you, uh, come to that, uh, hit that a little bit closer to home when it came to management and leadership, a lot of parallels with, with having a kid. Um, I had a kid pretty young and, uh, you had to, had to grow up real quick because guess what? You got to feed this thing. You got to take care of it and make sure it doesn't die. And it's going to be glued to your hip for at least 18 years. So it's definitely, you don't have a choice anymore out of necessity.

Uh, it's for someone else. Yeah. I always say that. I think having kids is one of the most selfless things you can do, right? Because immediately, I think, I think for me, it was, you know, an immediate recognition that it, this is no longer about me. This is a hundred percent about, you know, this little helpless thing here that literally can't survive without me. So, uh, you know, I, I know that helps me be a better leader because it put me, uh, you know, check my ego in so many ways. Right. And I think that's what you need every once in a while is you need somebody to check your ego because the problem with a players, when it comes to sales, is there a players, right? And they're the one, they're the rainmakers and they're always on the leaderboard.

But I, I find that the best sales reps are rarely the best managers. What are the characteristics of what, like if you've got a team, right? And you're looking at them and you're trying to identify who is, who are the leaders of your group, right? That, that could be versus that just a lone wolf, go kill it, you know, do your thing. Right. Um, how do you identify them directly? Like, how do you, how do you pick them out? Are there certain traits you look for based on their actions or do you give them little mini things to delegate, to see how they work? Like what's your approach to that? Uh, yeah. So for me, um, I look for leaders that don't have a title and you don't need a title to be a leader, obviously, right?

So if you look at teams of sales reps, there's always, uh, people that step up, they're sharing best practices. Maybe they're hosting a, a team call, they're setting up events. They're, they're doing things outside of the scope of their, um, job description to help other people or their mentor, right? Those are the leaders, uh, they have the humility and the awareness and the skillset, um, to give back and they know it and they're not looking for credit, um, to what they do when no one's looking, right? And you happen to catch them in the act of something and you're like, okay, these, these are our high potential future leaders and we need to surround them and not lose them to competition and make sure they're recognized for their efforts.

So, um, again, it goes back to, you know, early in my career, I say, all right, I want to be a leader. Well, in what way are you a leader today? You don't need the title, right? So you've got to, you've got to plan. You have all these leadership things you want to do. Why aren't you doing them today? And I, you know, my shitty response was, well, I'm not a leader, right? So, uh, okay, well start doing those things and you'll be a leader. If you want to manage, you know, if you want to be a manager, start managing, you want to be a leader, start being a leader. Yeah, I think it's a, it's definitely a mindset, but I think there is something about giving structure to it, right? Like one of the things I used to do is, you know, I would give weekly, uh, just very basic weekly assignments, if you will.

I'd, I'd, you know, we'd do our team meeting and I had a small team, so it was easy, but I'd be like, all right, what's the challenge we want to work on today, right? Or this week and be like, I'll get through gatekeepers or whatever the hell it would be dealing with this objection. I'd be like, all right, who wants to run this? So like, who wants to own this one? And then when I say own, I don't mean like write a book report or anything like that. I mean like literally Google, like pick a fucking, you know, technique or something like that, but then teach us all. And I would give them a framework on, I wouldn't give them the answer, but I would say, here's a framework of what we're looking for.

And I would look to see how they managed that, right? Like what approach they took to doing it, how they, how they educated us on whatever that was, what the tracking system was looked like, and then what the feedback loop was. And there were some that were absolutely brilliant at putting all that together and coaching everybody to that one specific thing. And then there were absolutely nightmare people. And even though they were great. So, so the people that were really good at the process and the structure, I'm like, all right, those are probably more of the leadership track. People who are just not good at that at all, but still made it rain. I'm like, all right, you're probably going to be a rep here.

And now I'm just going to give you accelerator so you can go. But how do you have the conversation with somebody that thinks they want to be a leader, but you know, they're, they're not really cut out for it. Do you, do you move them in the direction of you could be a leader and this is how, or do you, are you, do, are you very open with them and saying, look, quite frankly, if I was you, I would just stay a rep because you're going to, you're murdering it as a rep. You'll make a shitload more money. You won't have to deal with all this bullshit that I have to deal with on a day to day basis. Do you give them, do you give them that type of feedback or do you think everybody can be kind of move in the, in the leadership direction?

Yeah, I could be wrong. I think everyone can move in the leadership direction if they're willing to be honest with themselves and, you know, take a step back and have that self-awareness. I would never discourage anyone from doing it. But there are definitely those people that you're like, well, it's, that's a bridge too far. You've got some work to do. And I will have that honest conversation. I'll say like, you're here and you want to get here and here's the 26 things you're going to have to do in the middle before I would even consider you for a leadership role. I'll help you get there, right? We'll figure it out and we'll map it out together, but you need to sort of meet these milestones along the way.

I would never discourage anyone from going for it, but they do need to demonstrate the ability and desire to move in the right direction. And to your point, it's such a selfless thing that a lot of top reps aren't great leaders because they become super reps and they, you know, we talk about that a lot. They, they kind of defer back to what they know best, which is getting into the deals and rolling up their sleeves. And that's not where a leader needs to be. Let's talk about that for a second. Because I think I should ask, or earlier asked this question to differentiate leadership versus management. Because I think there's a, there's an important distinction, right? I like, as an example, I think I'm actually a pretty decent leader.

I don't think I'm a good manager. Mainly because I like accountability is probably my biggest Achilles heel, right? Like I, for instance, in a forecast review, I'm the best guy on the planet. If you want to be in a forecast review, just strategize about a deal and talk about what to do. But when it comes to like you missing your forecast, it's like, oh, I have to have this card. Ah, gross. Like pips and stuff like that. Like make my skin crawl. Like, you know what I mean? So, so help me understand your perspective on the difference between leadership and management. Yeah, I think we've all seen those images of like the, the cart getting pushed up a hill and the, the manager sitting in the cart, the leader pulling the cart and a leader is someone you follow and a manager is someone who tells you what to do kind of thing.

Um, I'd look at it to your point as the manager is more process, uh, focused and a leader is more outcome focused and that may or may not be right. Um, but yeah, it's a balancing act, especially if you work for a corporation that has, or even worse, a publicly traded corporation that has certain, uh, milestones and deliverables that you have to, uh, sort of check the box on. And, um, yeah, it, it's a balancing act. I think for me, you can be a hundred percent a leader and still check all those management boxes, um, but be a leader to your team. And that's hopefully, you know, what I try to do every day. It's there's certain managerial things I have to do, whether, you know, pipeline inspection, forecasting, blah, blah, blah, uh, activity reviews.

But then from a leadership perspective, that's all about sort of showing the way and guiding and empowering and helping people up their game. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's tough. And it all kind of goes back to that recessionary, um, conversation because try doing that in this climate when, you know, it's a constant, um, sort of, uh, eyes over your shoulder, looking at your business and pipeline coverage and pipe create. And it's, it's tough out there to kind of just stay true to your, your leadership, um, trajectory, but not impossible. I think one of the harder things is, is the transparency component to it. And what I would love your thoughts on, on how transparent you, you should be as a leader.

And I'll use a couple of examples. One is there's a great movie. You, I think it's you five, seven, one or something like that with Matthew McConaughey. Submarine one. Yeah. The submarine one. And Matthew McConaughey, like, you know, the main captain dies. Right. And Matthew McConaughey is the next in line and the Russians are, and they got to take the sub and all this crazy shit. And Matthew McConaughey is now all of a sudden has to be the guy. Right. And his, and his crew looks at him and says, what do we do? And he says, I don't know. Like he straight up says, I don't know. And like, that's the, one of the worst things at that moment, because everybody's looking for a leader to say, but he was being honest.

He's like, I have no fucking idea what I'm going to do right now. Like what we should do right now. And then, and then another example of what happened just recently with you, with SBB. Right. Like the, the, I think the biggest fault of what happened with SB, uh, with Silicon Valley bank was the, the president of the bank stood up in front of all the customers. And said, Hey, we stuck with you. When times are tough for you, you, you need to stick with us with time. Oh, times are tough. Wait a minute. What? And then he said the word that you probably shouldn't say in this environment, which is panic. He said, look, don't, this is the last thing we need is panic. And what, what I took from that, it was, he was trying to be genuinely like, look, we're, we're in the shit right now, but if we stay together, we're going to be okay.

Right. Which is what my approach would be. But that, that created a, a frantic, like as soon as he said the word panic, everybody was like, fuck panic. See you later. Take, get my money back. So where, what level of transparency should you, and I know this is situational, but can you give some guidelines on the level of transparency a leader needs to have versus what they should not be sharing with people? Yeah. Um, great question. So if you look at the best leaders in your career, they are honest, they are authentic, they are real, they are vulnerable, they are gritty, and they are fearless. But the problem with that statement is, um, no one is fearless, right? So if you think about, uh, an airline pilot, would you get on a plane with a pilot that looks terrified?

Probably not. God, no. Um, I actually look at, by the way, when I used to fly all the time, that was the first thing that I would do when I would get into the flight, I was like, I would, I would go, I would look to the left. I would say, Hey captain, what's up? How's the day going today? And, and I'm not even kidding you. There are twice in my life where I've looked at the captain and I've gone, holy shit, that guy doesn't look right. I'm not getting on this fucking plane. Uh, exactly. Exactly. So from a leadership standpoint, the same principle applies. So you can be a fearless leader, right? Um, and you can be an authentic leader and you can do it in a way, uh, that is sort of, um, consistent with honesty and authenticity.

Here's what I mean by all that. If you're dealing with a tough situation, like go back to the SVP thing for a minute. If, if he had said, you know, it's a tough economic climate out there. We're going to get through this. Um, we we've got your back. That would have been fine. If he said, if no empatics, we're going to be fine. Well, he's showing fear. That's not fearless, right? He's demonstrating fear. What he should have done is the first version of that. And as a sales leader, you know, if, if you're fearful or, or if you see an issue, um, you don't have to communicate that you can omit some things because you need your team to feel, uh, that you're at the helm and you've got control and you've got their back and they're going to follow you into battle.

Um, now the perfect example that I use in the book, I was up on stage once a few thousand people and I was terrified. Like it was a huge crowd. I wasn't really prepared. They kind of grabbed me a few minutes before, uh, spotlights in my face, just a sea of people. And they're like, go, um, and I did my best kind of got through it and I came off stage and people were like, man, you're so fearless. I wish I could do that. And I told them after the fact, I was terrified, right? I didn't tell them in the moment because I'm not going to get up there and cry. Right. Um, but once it's done, I wanted to get back to my authenticity and said, no, no, no. I shit my pants up. That was horrible. I hated it.

Right. So that's, that's kind of how you do it as a sales leader. It's like, Hey, we're going to get through this. I got your back. Don't worry about it. Then when it's over, you can say, Hey, let me give you a peek behind the curtain and show you what we were dealing with and kind of show them how the sausage was made. They'll appreciate that, appreciate that even more because you shielded them from it and you were authentic, but not easy to do that. No. And I think that's the, that's the balance right now is, is one of the things I learned, you know, from talking to a lot of CROs based on that situation, the SVB one was, and I thought this was cool was if you, if you ultimately believe that you'll be able to get through it, then don't tell them the details, like just say, we will get through this.

Let me share with you how I, my plan for getting through this and what I need you all on board. And I'd love your feedback on it. But if, but if you don't, like if you genuinely feel like you're in deep, deep shit right now and you're not going to make it out, then that's where you should probably open up and be very transparent and see, look, team, this is where we are. Let me open up the books. Like I need your help trying to figure this out. Cause I can't do this by myself. And you know, I understand if you're freaking out, if you want to run away, please do. Um, but if you're here, I'm here. So let's go. And I think that's, that's the one thing I took from that is if you have confidence that you can do it, shut the fuck up and just go.

But if you don't maybe back off a little bit and be open and, and, and, and give people the benefit of the doubt. I mean, I think that's the thing. It's like, let some, cause some people are going to, are going to actually gravitate towards you when you open it up and you're that transparent with them. You'll be like, we're in with this, with you, right? Other people are, don't have that risk profile and they're going to run away. And those are probably people you don't want on your team anyways, in this scenario that you're in. Exactly. Cool, man. Well, look, I think we should, I got all sorts of other questions, but in the interest of keeping this thing, you know, to the 45 minute range here for the crowds, uh, let's wrap it up.

Anything, there was one, there was 40 secrets. So let's, let's finish up with something in the book. Cause there was, there was 40 secrets, um, uh, that you put in there as one of the chapters. And I know one of your favorites is don't be a jellyfish. Right. And you already mentioned it earlier is like, you know, have a spine, take ownership, no matter what the shit is, you as a leader have to take ownership of that. What's another, what's, what's your second favorite one, uh, as far as the, the, the secret there. Yeah. My second favorite is respect the calendar. And what I mean by that is if I get an email on a Sunday, um, I'm going to check it and it's, it's not cause I'm trying to work on a Sunday, but you have to see what's going on.

And a lot of these gigs are 24 seven. Um, but the quickest way to alienate your team as a sales leader is to bug them on their time off. So whether it's weekends, late nights, vacations, um, I don't know about you, but if I get a call and I'm at, let's say my son's graduation and I see my boss calling, I'm either going to pick it up because it's my boss or I'm not going to pick it up. And then I'm going to think about, I wonder what he wants. I wonder what's going on either way. He just fucked up that special moment forever. And I'll look back on that and think, you know, how stressed I was in that situation. So, um, maybe that's my hangup, but I try with my team to really respect their calendars.

Now, if you're working, you're working. Um, but you should never make, you know, people kind of choose between their family and work. And if they've taken time off, let them take time off. If people are so burned out right now, um, that's such an important one that most people miss. Yeah. I think that aligns with expectation setting, right? I think, you know, personally life is about expectation setting. You set good expectations and you meet those expectations. Usually things fly, right? So from a communication standpoint, you know, setting those expectations, what those barriers are, like, I will not fucking, you know, I will not bother you in these scenarios, but also realizing, I think that, you know, it always cracks me up how important we all think everything that we do is.

And at the end of the day, we fucking, we sell shit. Like, like I, my, my out of office is always this. Thanks for your email. Um, since I'm not a brain surgeon or emergency room doctor, I'm guessing your email can wait until I get back. See you later. Right. I'll be like, you know, and this is the date I'll be back and I'll get back to you. And it's hysterical because everybody who gets it, like they actually almost all comment and be like, dude, thanks. I needed this reminder today that I'm not, you know, that important. And what I'm doing here is not that fucking important. So I think that's a part of it too. It's just like, let's, let's, let's slow down a little bit and realize what's, uh, what's real.

I'm glad you brought that up. But one of the greatest leaders I work for told me once, he goes, Hey man, relax. We're not going to remember the deals or all this stuff in 20 years when we bump into each other on a beach. We're going to remember the people we met, the friends we made, the conversations. None of this matters. I'm like, oh, okay. That's good to hear. So it's, look, it's, it's hard to get out of that when sometimes when you're freaking out, cause you can't pay the bills and those types of things. And I get that. Right. I mean, I've, I've been there and look what we're going through right now. A lot of people are freaking out and, and I have a lot of empathy for that. Uh, but you got a roof over your head.

You're pretty healthy. You got a decent family. Right. And, and you got, you know, you can work hard. That's the thing for me. I always come back down and it seems like you have it as well as just work ethic. Right. Like that's the one thing that they can't take away from you is how hard you work and how much effort you put into it. And, you know, emotion creates emotion as, uh, you know, Ben Affleck says in boiler room, even though it's a shitty sales movie. It's true. Awesome. Well, I love it. And, uh, I appreciate the time and the conversation. This was fun. Yeah. We had a good time. Thank you. How can people find out more about the book, about what you're doing? Where do you want them to go?

What, tell them, tell them what's up. Yep. Uh, they can go to my website, adamapps.com. That's A-P-P-S. Uh, the books on Amazon, hardcover, paperback, Audible, Kindle, all that good stuff. Very cool. And you guys hiring too, or where are you at? Uh, yeah. Pure Storage is my employer. We have, uh, we're actually in growth mode still despite the economy. So we are hiring and, uh, we got all kinds of spots across the world. So check it out. Giddy up. All right. Go check it out. They're hiring. All right, Adam. Thank you again for coming on, man. I really appreciate it. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. See you. Absolutely. And everybody else out there, thanks for listening. Hopefully you got a few nuggets that made you think a little bit differently.

And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, uh, no matter how bad your day's going or how bad you think it went, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad it goes, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads. And I can't thank you enough to keep the momentum going. If you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it.

In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM, and I will get right back to you. I promise. And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year, and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses. I'll be delivering live training the first and second week of every single month with our two marquee courses, filling the funnel and driving a close to anybody who wants to join. And it includes membership in our on-demand platform with weekly AMAs. So you can go to jbarrows.com/open to check out the details. Thanks again, and have a great day.