Amber Deibert: The Only One You're Fooling Is You

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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and who I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And man, are you in for a treat with this one. This was a wide-open therapy session for John Michael Barrows. I had heard Amber Divert, who's a performance coach, somebody on a webinar of ours had mentioned her as somebody who had helped them with imposter syndrome. And I definitely suffer from imposter syndrome, whether people believe it or not. And so I jumped on a call with her and I said, we gotta do this podcast and let's use this as an open therapy session.

And oh my God, did she bring up some stuff that got me thinking. So you're gonna love this one. We talked about imposter syndrome and the three flavors of it, feeling like a fraud, feeling like you got lucky or downplaying your achievements. Also talked about how it's not really a syndrome and the people who came up with it back in the 70s actually wish they had changed the name because it's not a medical condition. It's actually a passing effect versus a syndrome and all sorts of things that cause it, like the little T traumas of your inner child and how to talk to your inner child and talk them out of what they're trying to protect you from that relates to the imposter syndrome. So this one is jam-packed with things.

Get your notepad out. And I highly recommend if you're faced with the same issues that I am to reach out to Amber and have her work with you on this. So thank you all for listening and enjoy the conversation as much as I did. What's happening, Make It Happen family? Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Proposify, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes. Proposify is one of my favorite teams of all time. What they do is they make the proposal and contract processes easy for the sender and the recipient.

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See you soon, everybody. Amber Diver, how are you? I am so pumped. I am excited for this one. Look, this is actually weird. I think, you know, the universe does, I definitely believe in some weird thing. I don't know what it is. I still kind of think we live in the matrix to a certain degree, but I do think there's something about the universe that pushes things in certain directions. And you were introduced to me in a very interesting way at a very interesting point in my life. And I am looking forward to having this conversation. So, Amber, for the audience who does not know you, talk to me a little bit about your background, how you got to where you are, what you're doing these days, and then we'll dive into it.

Yeah. So, I am based in Silicon Valley. Maybe you've heard of it. I don't know. Maybe you've heard of it. Yeah, you know. What a place. So, I'm surrounded by people. It's just a very competitive environment, and people are always looking to get ahead. And what I found through my own experience and the experience of my peers is that everybody is trying to hit the next milestone, but not feeling satisfied about any of the milestones that we've hit. It's like they keep moving. And what I find is that I work with top professionals. I work with high-achieving people, and there's this imposter syndrome that's rampant the higher you get in an organization or the higher you get in your success. And I worked in startups.

I had major imposter syndrome. My background is being homeschooled, growing up in poverty, being one of six kids, growing up in this blue-collar town, and then finding myself plopped in San Francisco working for a unicorn startup and feeling like people are going to know that I'm not supposed to be here. Like, they've got to know that I'm making all of this up, and, like, it's going to, like, the bubble's going to burst at any moment here. So, I learned all these tools and quit my job, became a coach, and now I coach these high-achieving, top-performing individuals who experience imposter syndrome, and I help them tweak their mindset so they can get rid of the self-doubt and instead just open up into all the happiness and contentment that's waiting for them.

And that's what got my attention, right? So, we did a webinar, and I thought, yeah, I actually, because I don't pay attention to all our webinars. We do a ton of them. And so, I actually thought you were on it, but you weren't. You were just mentioned on it by somebody you work with, Brendan, and he talked about how you helped him with imposter syndrome. And I think you got, what, like, nine people reaching out to you immediately, being like, we got to talk. And when I had, and actually, that's how I found out, because on our Slack channel, James posted, hey, look at these results that we got for even somebody else on our, you know, who wasn't even on our webinar, right? And I was like, cool.

And, but then I saw the topic, and I was like, imposter syndrome, shit. Maybe I should talk to him. Because I did, because that's, you know, it's something I've struggled with my entire life more now than ever. I mean, to a certain degree, I mean, like you said, a lot of people, you know, the higher they get. And, you know, I still, to this day, even though a lot of followers, a lot of success, and all that other stuff, almost on a daily basis, when I show up to do something, or meet somebody who I haven't met before, or be in a situation that I'm not used to, there's that self-doubt. There's that, wait, do I belong here? And, which is weird, I think, for a lot of people to hear, because, you know, I usually project myself as pretty confident, pretty direct.

You know, I'm very opinionated, but there's that little kid inside of me that's just like, fuck. Like, to your point, like, are they going to find me out, right? Yeah. And I think I got an idea of where it's coming from, but I want to talk to you through this so that maybe other people can glean some insights as well. But more importantly, like, how to address it, right? Because there's one thing about where it comes from, and you've got to learn that before you can figure out how to address it. But then it's like, all right, so what do you do about it, right? Because I'd actually listened to your recent podcast where you were talking about this, as far as, like, there's that milestone, and we're never satisfied with that next step.

We're just convinced, like, once I get to that next step, then I'll feel good about myself. Like, it's, well, it wasn't this one that I just accomplished. It's the next one. And once I get there, then I can feel good. And then you get there, and you're like, I don't feel good. I mean, I think about myself in college or even in high school. Like, once I can have my own car and I can drive anywhere I want. Like, can you even imagine? You can drive anywhere you want, anytime you want. I would never have a problem ever again in my entire life. And it sounds so funny to say that today. Right. And yet, that's what we still are doing to ourselves. We're like, once I hit six figures, once I hit seven figures, once I hit this, and once I hit that, like, then I'll be happy.

And we can hit all those milestones but never be satisfied. And what's really interesting in situations like yours, people don't see you and think, like, oh, he's got to have imposter syndrome. They're like, no, he's achieved every success that I ever could want to achieve. And yet, the higher up you get in your success, the more you feel like an imposter because you are even, like, more accomplished. And you're looking around thinking, like, who put me here? Like, don't they know that I don't belong here? That I've never done this before? I shouldn't be here. Like, it's a real disaster. And I think there's my first question for you before we dive into it is everybody kind of says they have imposter syndrome.

And I think, you know, it's almost like me joking around that I have OCD, right? Like, I'm not diagnosed OCD. And I don't want to even – and I've learned not to diminish people who really have, like, clinical OCD by saying, oh, you know, I'm OCD because I don't like over alerts on my phone and I like things organized. Like, so what's the difference between somebody who kind of thinks they have imposter syndrome and kind of jokes around about it but – and somebody who, like, genuinely has – because I believe I genuinely have it. Like, I – there's a conscious thing that happens in my head every time right before I go into a situation that's like, holy shit. And it's almost like a panic. And then five minutes into the situation, I'm okay because I realize I do belong here.

But it's real. Like, it's a – I want to say anxiety because, again, I don't want to diminish people that have anxiety. But I do believe that it's real. So is there a difference between people who kind of just think they have it versus people who are like, holy shit, this is a real issue for me? So that's such an interesting question. And I want to start off by saying that imposter syndrome was named in the 70s. There were researchers who were doing research. They saw a lot of high-performing women who all kind of had this trend of downplaying their achievements. And so they named it imposter syndrome. The same researchers later wished that – they said they wished they would have called it the imposter effect.

Because it is not a mental condition. It's not like an actual mental disorder. It's a passing experience from time to time. So whenever I talk to people who are like, no, I have experienced imposter syndrome through my whole entire career, what I know to be true without knowing anything else about them is that they have been very successful. They have probably been promoted very quickly. They've grown in their career. And the reason that you experience imposter syndrome is because you're in a growth phase. What I wish everybody knew and, like, if you hear nothing else is that if you experience imposter syndrome, it's because you are a wild success. If you stay complacent – All right. Well, that makes me feel a little bit better.

Yeah. You cannot feel imposter syndrome unless you're a success. You feel like an imposter because you've got the next promotion. You've got the next project. You've got the next role. Like, that is why you feel like an imposter because you're doing something you've never done before. And I say this to my five-year-old. I'm like, of course you're not great at playing basketball right now because you haven't played basketball that much. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll feel at it. And so I know that, John, for you, you have experiences where you used to feel like an imposter at something like interviewing and hiring your first few employees. You probably were like, I don't know what I'm doing.

They're going to see right through me that I don't know what I'm doing. And now when you go to interview and hire people, like, you've done it so much that you no longer feel like a fraud. I mean, it's kind of like the keynotes for me. It's like – it's funny when I do a keynote of something I've done before. I still have – I'm still – I want to say nervous. I've done that switch between nervous and excited, right, that whole mental shift there. But, for instance, I'm creating a new keynote right now, and I know for a fact when I get up on stage that first time to deliver that one, I'm going to be like, oh, man, is this really worth it? It's like, do they know that I really might not know what the fuck I'm talking about here?

You know what I mean? So I do agree. Now, with that, though, A personalities is continuous growth of people who are constantly achieving. Is that the characteristic? Because do people who are – and I'm going to categorize this in a bad way, but bear with me here – that A's, B's, and C's, right? The Jack Welch distribution of talent here. You've got your A rep, you know, your people, your B's, and your C's, and your C's. You've got a top grade in whatever you want to do there. But the B's, right? And I always used to say as growing a company, I was always frustrated that everybody wasn't an A player. Like, why aren't you driven to that next level? Like, why aren't you – and I realized, you know, earlier in my career that if we were all A players, this company would rip itself apart.

Like, you need B players. You need people who are happy doing their role and doing it well. And then I parlay that with Gary Vaynerchuk, and I 100% agree with this, which is the ultimate goal is happiness, right? So if you're making $50,000 a year, and you get to go home and be with your kids and go to the softball games, and you are happy, then you win because there are multimillionaires out there who are just miserable assholes. So are there characteristics besides success and growth that also lean towards this imposter syndrome, and are other people who are content in those areas just don't really see it because they don't have that drive to go to that next level? So another consistent theme with imposter syndrome is that you experience imposter syndrome when you feel like you are the odd one out.

And you can feel like the odd one out for any number of reasons. It could be that you are the only one of your gender. It could be the only one of your race, the only one of your orientation. It could be that you are the only one with the level of experience that you have. Everybody has more experience than you. It could be that you're the only one who didn't go to a certain type of school. It could be that you are the only one who didn't graduate college, or you seemingly think, which this is the one that I come up a lot with my salespeople, and they're like, what you don't know is I didn't graduate college. So I'm not supposed to be here. People should know that I can't interview for another job because they're going to find out that I don't have that college degree, which I'm like, if you had a freaking – there's so many throwaway degrees.

Like, okay, great, you've got, like, the political science degree. That's a throwaway degree. Like, it means nothing compared to the experience that you have. So I would say that the other common thread with imposter syndrome is that in some regard, you make yourself the odd person out and decide that you don't belong here. Okay, that makes sense. What is it for you? Even if it is, like, somebody who is what I would – and again, major generalities here, and I don't want to, you know, label anybody, but that B player who's happy. But they go to the PT, you know, the parent event at night, and they're the only one with a kid that's doing one thing weird, and so there's a little bit of an imposter syndrome, right?

Or that can be it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In some regard, you make yourself the odd person out. And for a lot of people, I'm noticing they're highly, highly successful, and I feel like we have this kind of, like, gaping hole in us that we're trying to fill. And if we can just fill it with enough achievements, maybe it will close, but the achievements will never fill it. We have to, like, fill it from within and decide that we are good enough, that we are okay, that we are worthy of what we have, and that, to me, is the biggest problem to solve. So this is interesting because – and this is where we can dig into me a little bit here because I just went on – you know, I told you before, I went to Sedona, did this whole adventure, and I did, you know, vision quests and all these different things.

And a lot of them were asking, like, all right, let's go back to your childhood, right? Like, try to shut your eyes and go back and figure out your earliest memory. Now, a couple things. One is I literally can't remember anything before 11 years old, period. Like, I've tried. I've gone into trance. They put earphones on me with, like, right brain, left brain stuff and hold my, you know, zit, zit things in my hand. And I – any memory that I have before 11-ish is a photograph. It's pure. It's a photograph. And so there's two things that are on that. One is there was something that happens at that moment, right, that was traumatic that is blocking all that. Or what I think is more likely for me is that my life was so kind of average, if you will, that there was nothing really memorable.

And I kind of say that because when I interviewed – so I worked for Jack and Susie Welsh for a little while, getting their online MBA program off the ground. And Jack asked me some business stuff, whatever. But Susie, she asked me – she's like, tell me about your childhood, right? Now, you said you grew up poor, you know, all these different things. Mine, I grew up in a middle-class, you know, town. My parents were married for 55 years before my dad passed away. My sister was nine years older than me. We had the dog. You know, I went to – and so as I explained to her my childhood, at the end, she goes, so you're the one. And I'm like, what? She goes, you're the one who grew up with 2.5 children, white picket fence, you know, everything.

And I'm like – and as it chimed in, I was like, shit. And I thought of all my friends, divorce, this, you know, all this other stuff. And I was extremely fortunate in how I grew up. And so I really don't think – I mean, I think I do need to go and maybe go into some therapists to really just check that box off to make sure there's nothing there. But I'm like 95% sure that there's no, like, traumatic thing. Because I talked to my sister who's nine years older than me. She's like, John, I was with you all nine years. You know what I mean? She's like, nothing major happened to you. So with that, that gaping hole, I don't think I have a gaping hole that I'm trying to fill. And also, as a different aside, like, I also gave up a long time ago about, oh, if I just reach that, I'll be happy.

Like, I've actually never really been that way because I've never been a hardcore goal setter. I've never been like, put that stake in the ground. I'm going to go get it. I've had goals. But I'll give you an example. A while back, I said I wanted a 59 vet, right? So a 59 classic vet. And in my head that, you know, it's $80,000 and I wanted to get to a point in my career where I could write a check for 80 grand and it wouldn't hurt, okay? You know, a few years back, I got to that point in my career and it was more the journey to get there than it was the thing, right? Again, Gary Vee, he talks about the journey. It's like, he wants to own the Jets. He even says it. He's like, if I ever own the Jets, it's actually not going to be cool.

He's like, because I like the journey so much more. So with those two, let's dive into kind of the imposter syndrome where it comes from for me without a gaping hole and without the, ooh, that's going to satisfy me. I'm an evolutionist. I just keep moving forward here. So why is this still such a conscious thing that happens? Yeah. So tell me about what's happening. You mentioned this keynote. Tell me about what's happening before you get in the meeting when you're feeling like I don't belong here. Like what are the thoughts that are going through your head? What are the actual sentences? Look, I think kind of going back to school, I have a degree. I'm not dumb, but I'm not a Harvard kid. I don't like reading all that much.

I don't like facts and figures. And there are people that are way more, quote unquote, intelligent than me. I'm more EQ than IQ in a lot of ways. And I think that's some of the times like when I'm, it's almost like I feel this need to back up what I'm saying with data, but just to back it up with data, not because I give a shit about the data. It's just my, like, I feel like my experiences and what I've learned is interesting. But in order for me to prove to the smart people in the room that my opinion is valid, I got to back it up with some statistics. And I've even kind of joked about this, where I remember one time I was doing a presentation and I had this, I don't know, this data behind me about how many touches or something like that.

And I was making my point and some kid asked, hey, John, where'd that data come from? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. I found it on the internet. Who cares? The point is this, right? So, you know what, I think it's a lot about, like, is my opinion or is my experience and what I'm saying based on that, is that enough? And does it need to be backed up by science and information and data that I think that's where I come from is just an uncomfortable that my opinion is still worth something compared to somebody who spent three years doing deep dive research and interviewing 75 people. Like that's, that's what I'm struggling right now with this, with this one is the one that I put together reference a few things, but it's my story.

It's, it's alignment about my why values and the journey that I went on, but I don't have a ton of data to back up the impact or the effectiveness of it. I just think it's a cool story and it's something people can learn from, but I, but I'm like, is this where somebody dropping 10, 20, 30 grand for me to come up and speak to a hundred people about this? I don't know. Mm-hmm. So at some point in your life, you decided that you're not smart. I'm not as smart. Yeah. No, there's no, I mean, I say that I'm, I always say I'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch. I'm not, you know, I, I actually verbalize that quite a bit. You know what I mean? I'm not a rocket scientist. There's a thousand different ways to tell people that you're not smart and how you make up for it.

But the core piece is that you've decided that you're not smart, which is really interesting. I had a client who worked at a hedge fund. I don't know if you've heard of hedge funds. It's kind of hard to get into those. Yeah. And was convinced that he was not as smart as the other people in the room. This was how he decided that he was not, he didn't fit in. He was the odd person out. Was convinced. He was like, no, I just know that if you looked at their brains and you looked at my brain, you would see that they're smarter than me. And I would argue, yeah, you probably could find a test that shows that they have higher smartness than you, whatever that means. Like, I don't even know how to define smart, but you also could probably find an equal number of tests that you could both take and you would come out the one that was smart.

It's like a completely, what is it? Subjective? Objective? It's like completely nonsense. Like who even knows what smart is and who decides what's smart and what's not smart. But at some point for you, you decided that you were not smart and other people were smarter than you. And this is the thing that I think you're trying to prove by like, if I can just go out and have all the accolades, then I can feel better that I'm smart enough. Where for you, it would be super interesting if you just decided like, what is smart? What is my definition of smart? And how do I want to be smart? Well, and that's the other part is like, I don't really give a shit about the accolades. I really don't. The accolades actually make me uncomfortable.

They really do. I'm like, ah, you know, when people introduce me. You're like, I shouldn't have all these things because I'm not smart enough. I mean, well, yeah, because people are like, oh, you know, and I'm going to say this, other people again, be like, oh, they'll introduce me as, oh, this is one of the greatest sales trainers in the, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, ah, stop it. You know what I mean? Like, that's not, but, you know, Salesforce, for instance, they brought me in to do this think outside the quota, right? And I'm sitting there and it's like this video series that they're doing, this little short video. It's kind of like a Netflix series type of thing. And they asked me to, and I thought it was just a no, like, sure, fine, whatever.

But then all of a sudden I saw the lineup and I see Damon John, I see Tony Hawk and all these people and I'm like, and then like the CRO of Forbes. And I'm like, what in the fuck am I doing on this fucking list? Like, like from a celebrity status, I don't hold a candle to these people. Right. But I get in and again, they come in, this was, I mean, they rented out a roof deck in Boston. They brought like 30 people in whole day. And like, it was just for me. And I'm the entire time I'm looking at Chris and I'm like my, you know, and I'm like, dude, what in the fuck is happening right now? So, but, but what was hysterical was afterwards, all those videos that got released, the ones that got the highest feedback were mine.

And so it's, it's this, so I prove it that I know I belong once I'm there, but it's just still this limiting belief that I have. And I think it does also tie to this worthiness that, that really got to the core of being worthy of praise, being worthy of, and what I realized with a lot of these discussions that I had with, you know, when I went on this thing with, you know, vision quest and everything else was that there's, there's something weird about the, the giving of gratitude and the receiving of gratitude. And the blocker for me was the receiving of gratitude. So I am very give oriented, right? And, and I actually am uncomfortable. And I, and I unfortunately diminish other people's praise towards me, which how I'm learning to deal with that is realizing that actually takes away your happiness.

So when you say thank you to like, say I did something for you, right. Um, and, and you were like super appreciative of it. Right. And you were like, John, thank you. Oh man. I can't, I can't thank you enough. Usually what I would do is be like, Oh, no worries. Don't worry about it. It's a, you know, like there was no big deal, that type of thing. And what I'm doing there is I'm just trying to be nice, but it, and I think that's being a good guy, but really what it's doing is it's taking away from your, your happiness because you want to get that. I'm thinking, no, it was a big deal. Yeah. It was a huge deal. Yeah. And so that's to me, and it's almost like grieving, right? My, my cousin is the one who, who got me to realize this.

Um, so my, my aunt, uh, my cousin who was 62 and her son. So my second cousin, basically, um, my cousin, my 62 year old cousin passed away recently. And my aunt, she just like, just went into a deep, dark hole. Right. And she wouldn't let anybody help her. She's like, nobody understands. And all of us are just like, just yearning to help in some way, shape or form. And I was talking to my cousin about them, you know, her son who, uh, passed and he was like, you know what, John, I realized is like, well, you know, you have to be open to other people helping you because not only will it help you deal with whatever the situation is, but if you don't, again, you're, you're taking away from their happiness because they want to help.

And if you don't let them help, you're actually making it worse for them. So when I made that switch, as far as actually, this is a bad thing to do for the person that is delivering it. Now I can help justify it a little bit more because it's actually quite selfish to diminish somebody's appreciation. And so I'm working myself on how am I receiving gratitude and being very conscious. For instance, when somebody says, thank you, instead of saying, oh, don't worry about it to just simply say, you're welcome and let it sit there. Or when somebody apologizes, for instance, we do this all the time. Hey, oh, I'm, you know, when somebody says, I'm sorry, it's like, oh, don't you, it's okay. No, no, no.

When somebody apologizes, that, that takes a lot for somebody to genuinely apologize for something they did. And if you diminish it, that actually makes them think either a, it wasn't that big of a deal. So I could probably do it again. Or man, like, okay. So when somebody apologizes now, I just say, I accept your apology and just let it sit. Same thing with compliments. If somebody compliments you, like, oh, it's nothing. It's no big deal. Don't worry about it. Yeah. It's so uncomfortable to allow that, that warmth and that kindness from other people because some part of you feels undeserving. What's up, everybody? I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heat.

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Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL one more time is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guest for this week. That's another interesting part is those like voices in our heads, if we will, if I could, of the different inner critics that we have that are telling us these limiting beliefs of like, you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, you're not, it's, you don't deserve this kind of a thing. What's super interesting to me and what I've learned is that we tend to think of those inner critics as like authority figures. It's like a, like a crabby aunt or like a crabby parent or like somebody, like a teacher that's like telling us that we're not good enough when actually those inner critics are younger versions of us.

It's our inner child and they're not criticizing us. They're, they're trying to protect us from past pain. So there was some point where you were a child or teenager and you felt like you weren't smart enough. And anytime you get in a situation where you could feel that same pain of not feeling smart enough, this inner child warns you like, hey, like, don't go over there. You're not good enough. Like, don't, don't put us through that pain that we experienced in the past. Just avoid it. And when I had that realization that that was who my inner critic was, it was a, a hurt younger version of me. I was able to have so much more compassion for that version of me versus like pushing them away, shoving them away, telling them like, you're, you're wrong.

You're ruining my life. You're making this so much worse. Instead, I could just kind of like welcome them in and say like, I see you. I hear you. You're hurt. And it was not okay. What happened to you? And I'm here to comfort you and to love you for who you are. Do you recognize what that hurt was or do you just accept it that it was hurt? And the reason I asked that question is because again, not knowing what that pain was that might be, and it might've been a small one that again was so insignificant that consciously I don't, but subconsciously I do. So, so when that happens, now that you've, now that you've made that switch, right, where you, you recognize that when that inner child comes in and with the self doubt and you, you know, empathize with it, if you will.

Um, are you recognizing what caused that? Or are you, like I said, you just recognizing it for what it is and accepting it? Mm-hmm. Well, so to take a step back, it's super interesting because I think we all think of like capital T traumas and we look at our childhoods. And I did the same thing. I looked at my childhood and I was like, I fortunately wasn't abused. I wasn't, I mean, like everything seemed fine. I had kind of a normal childhood, but I think a better definition of trauma is anything that your nervous system can't handle. And so that's why different siblings will experience things differently because one of them might have a more sensitive nervous system and be affected a lot more by something than the other sibling.

And so I think that we tend to kind of gaslight ourselves and say like, my childhood was fine. There wasn't anything there. But if there was something that happened that your nervous system can't handle, that's what kind of gets embedded into your system. And that's what your body is trying to like help prevent happening in the future. So for myself and for a lot of my clients, I'm able to ask them like, how old do you think that child is that's telling you that you're not smart enough? And for whatever reason, seven is an age that comes up for a lot of them. But they might remember like, oh yeah, I remember sitting in class and my teacher said something about this assignment that I did. Or I remember my parents said something.

Or I remember like my dad got really angry. Or I remember, you know, and it, when you hear the stories, you're like, oh, that's just like a normal kid thing. Like that happens to every kid. But those scenarios kind of get embedded in you. And that's where this quote unquote inner critic comes up of like, I need to warn you that this can't happen again. Like we don't want to experience that same pain. So anytime you get even nearer to like putting your hand on that stove again, I'm going to like scream at you and let you know, like, don't do it. That's a terrible mistake. And it's funny because there is one memory that I, and I don't know how old I was, but it must have been, when do you start to learn to read, right?

Seven, six, seven, something like that. Like really read, like you can, you know, read children's books. But probably that brings it up because I've thought about it in the past and I haven't thought about it recently. But there is a memory that I have of when I was reading or trying to read out loud in front of my parents and my dad. He's passed now and he would probably hate me for bringing this up. But I do remember him laughing because I mispronounced something, you know what I mean? Like I said something weird or funny or whatever it was. And, and I remember, I remember it and I remember being embarrassed about it. And, you know, that probably has an extremely strong correlation to why I don't like reading today.

You know what I mean? I honestly, I look at it as a physical thing because, and, but I think it's a manifestation of what my brain has, has done. Because to me, like if I genuinely, if I pick up a book right now and I start reading within five pages, I fall asleep. Like, like, like I start yawning. I start just my head bobs and it's no matter where I am, I could be in the most uncomfortable chair on the planet. I could have lights blazing in my face. I could have music playing around me five, 10 pages into a book, I start falling asleep. And I think it's to a certain degree, like you said, it's almost like a defense mechanism saying you, you, you, you felt ashamed. And you felt, you know, embarrassed about that.

And I, that, I don't want that to happen again. And so, you know, but does that, so those are the micro. So you talk about the capital T versus the micro T's. Yeah, exactly. Like the lowercase T thing. So anybody would hear that and they'd be like, oh, well, like, it wasn't like your dad was an alcoholic and was abusing you. And like, you had this horrible situation, but that was something that was traumatic for you in the moment and had an effect on you later down in life. I also think it's super fascinating because when we think about our seven-year-old selves, like when I think about myself as a seven-year-old, I think like, oh, like I knew. When I think about myself as an 18-year-old, I'm like, I like, I knew what was going on.

I was very aware, whatever. And I look back and I'm like, no, you really didn't. But like when we're seven, like I have a six-year-old right now. And I don't know if you've been around a seven-year-old. Yeah, I got an 11-year-old. Yeah, he knows everything. He is like with it. He's listening to all the adult conversations. He understands what's happening. He's like laughing at the jokes. But what I see is like, you have no idea. Like you're just scratching the surface of what's actually happening. But he feels like he knows. So it's very different when you think about yourself as a seven-year-old. And you have this kind of idea that like you knew versus looking at an actual seven-year-old and realizing how much they really don't know.

And that's where you can have that compassion for yourself as a grown-up now and thinking about your seven-year-old self and just like embracing them. I think you had said something on your podcast on the flip side of that, which is something I don't know if you were and I forget the woman that you have on with you to talk this through. But it was either you or her who said that something that brings you comfort is thinking of yourself as that seven-year-old, as that 15-year-old, as that 20-year-old, and having that person think of who you are today and how impressed they would be with where you are right now, right? I mean, I think you said it just like I would, which is if I went back to 18 years old and thought that I would be where I am right now doing what I'm doing with as many people following as everything.

I'd be like, are you fucking crazy right now? Like the money, I remember my dad, I, you know, he, I mean, this was years ago. I remember him coming home one day and saying he turned down a job for $50 an hour. And I was floored. I was like, are you fucking crazy? You know, I'm making whatever, eight, six bucks an hour at the local grocery store and he's turning down jobs for $50 an hour. Yeah. And now you couldn't get me out of bed for $50 an hour. You know what I mean? So it's like, if I would have fast forwarded that moment where I was so like, oh my God, awestruck, and then told myself that in 20 years and 30 years, you're going to be making, you know, however many X that. Yeah. Right? So does that, is that something that you've, you do consciously on a consistent basis?

Like how does, how does that fit into your approach? I do. I definitely use that when I'm thinking like when I'm in the present moment and I'm like fixated on all the future achievements that I need to accomplish, I tend to like look back and like, what would my high school self think of me? First of all, she'd be amazed that I have my very own car that I can drive anywhere I want, anytime I want. She'd be thrilled by that. So whenever I like, I'm trying to find appreciation for the present moment, I'll go back and think about what my past self would do, would do. But I, I tend to, when I have these moments where I recognize like, oh, my 14 year old self felt very not good enough. She just felt like she was not good enough.

And I, I see that coming up still today that she's still like screaming at me, like, you're not good enough. You're not good enough. Please don't put yourself out there because you might find out that you fail. And it's so, so painful. We don't want you to experience that again. Like they think that they're doing us a favor by reminding us of these things. So when I think about that, I, I kind of like visualize, like for whatever reason, for me, it's like this black space. I see that 14 year old version of me. And as my current self, I go back and I visit her and my 14 year old self does not want to talk to me. My 10 year old self, she loves me. She wants to show me all her tricks. She's very much, she's a lot more bubbly.

The 14 year old self is very skeptical, but I'll go back and I'll just like hang out with her. And my 10 year old self felt very invisible and felt like nobody could see her. Nobody understood her. Nobody was paying attention to her. She just wanted that attention. And so I remember one particular day, I like went for a bike ride and I just like hung out with her while I was on this bike ride. And I was just like talking to her like a crazy person, but I was like, she was so funny. And she like, just wanted to show me all her tricks. And she wanted to tell me all about these boys that she was interested in. And she wanted to tell me all these things. And I just kind of like spent that time with her.

And it, I really think it kind of changes like the cells in your body to be able to heal those inner children. There was analogy once that I heard that was just felt so applicable. He was saying that just like you look at a tree, if you chop a tree, you can see all the tree rings and you can see that small tree inside of the adult tree. It's the same for us. Like our inner child is just as alive inside of us now as an adult, as that baby tree is inside of the adult tree. And I just think, I don't know, for me, it's been a lot of reparenting. Like now as a parent of my kids, I imagine that I'm all for parenting that inner child and I'm giving her what she didn't get. And it wasn't, I mean, our parents did the best that they could.

And we still, it's okay that we didn't get what we needed. And so now I'm giving it to her. So how do you, so how are you doing that? So with your, well, you're giving your inner child. I'm curious from a parenting standpoint though, because you're parenting your inner child in some ways in your existing state. But now with your nine-year-old, your nine-year-old son, you said, or six-year-old. I have a six-year-old and a two-year-old. So you're six-year-old. How has that changed your perspective on actual parenting? I mean, it gives me so much more empathy for my parents. Yeah, no shit. You know, like it's easy to sit in the therapist chair and like tell all the things that they did completely wrong.

And now being a parent, I'm like, man, this is the hardest thing that I've ever done. It's not for the faint of heart, but it is, it is really helpful to kind of see him as a separate entity from me. You know, just like I think about my, my six-year-old self and I see kind of how she was, I don't know if this makes any sense, but like she was the future adult me. And so I see him as like, he's on his own path too. And he's going to have events that happen when he's five and he's six and he's seven that are going to impact how he thinks about himself for the rest of his life. And it's helpful to have done all this work on myself so that I can help guide him in his childhood doesn't have to be perfect.

I've wanted that for a long, long time, but instead of focusing on having his childhood perfect, I'm going to focus on helping him navigate the challenges that he faces, that he's going to inevitably face, whether it's because of me or somebody else and help him to be able to resolve those so that he can be that healthy functioning adult. What do you do when you recognize that you did something that might've been a minor T and how to address it? So example, um, I, my daughter a while back, she was dancing really goofy, right? And like, like didn't have a rhythm in any way, shape or form, like was not on the beat. And I kind of, and I laughed, I'm like, maybe we should get you some dancing lessons, you know, I kind of, and then she kind of stopped dancing and it's like, fuck, you know what I mean?

Like that's one of those mini teas that might stick with her for the rest of her goddamn life. And she's going to be worried about getting on the dance floor moving forward. So how do you, when you recognize it and you know that that could have been a risk, um, or it could be a minor, uh, you know, a lowercase T that eventually leads to some, you know, issue moving forward. How do you address it as a parent? Yeah, that was a huge fear of mine for a long time. And I'll caveat. I'm no parenting expert. I'm figuring this out like the rest of us. Yeah. Um, but it was like, dang it. I just saw that thing that I did that I can now see because I've worked with so many adults who are resolving these things.

Like I can now see that that's going to have a huge impact on him. And now what I've learned is it doesn't matter what the T is. It, it matters more. I mean, I think obviously we want to avoid those, but it matters more the repair that happens afterwards. And I think that's something that my parents weren't great at and probably like their whole generation wasn't great at, but if I can go back and say, Hey, I'm sorry, I said this thing, I made a mistake. I'm a fallible human, just like all the rest of us. And I'm going to teach you how to like, how to repair if you make mistakes and I'm going to do my best to repair and tell you that that wasn't okay. And I made a mistake. So, so with the, with the dynamic of your inner child and your actual child, with your inner child, you're trying to, you're trying to go back and almost repair it in a way or empathize in a way that you understand, but type of thing.

Right. So it's like, look, I get it, but you know, we're going to be okay. And that's why I'm going to, I'm going to let your fear here. I'm going to try to subside it because it's my fear and I'm okay with it. Right. Whereas with your actual child, you're trying to repair, you know, like you're trying to make it so that it doesn't, they don't have to deal with it, but we still have to put them in a position to be mentally strong enough to recognize exactly what you're recognizing about yourself. So where in your journey, I think, I guess, I mean, you said you went off on your own as a coach. When did you do that? How, how many years ago? 2018. 2018. What, you know, it's kind of like therapist, right?

I always kind of laugh. Uh, I've, I've never gone to formal therapy, but, um, my problem is, is I need to skip to my Robin Williams, uh, in goodwill hunting. I don't want to go through the 15 that it takes to get to the one. Uh, cause every time I sit down, my problem is, is that, you know, I'm, if there is a skill I've been blessed with, it's definitely an ability to read people, be empathetic, understand. And so, you know, nine times out of 10, I end up being the therapist for the therapist because I'm digging into their issues because you know what I mean? Because mine aren't really all that big. And so all of a sudden it flips around to them. And then I'm like, all right, this is a waste of my fucking time here.

Um, but you know, with the, with that, when did you recognize your journey on self-discovery, I guess, that got you to a point that said, I need to work on this, but I can also help other people work on it. Like I've gotten to a point in my career where I'm comfortable enough with my inner child and how I'm handling this so that I can help other people. When did that happen for you? Well, I think it's an ongoing thing and I'm sure you have experiences too. Like, do I really have the skills? This is where my imposter syndrome comes up. Do I really have the skills to be able to teach other people? But I think in any situation, I always know that there are people who are further behind me on this path, who could use what I have to say.

And when, I mean, I just remember learning these mindset tools when I had imposter syndrome, working at these fast growing startups. And I was like, wait a minute, everybody needs to know this. This is like the secret to the universe of like being able to manage what you think about and what you focus on so that you can get better results and feel better. And just unlocking, like removing those limiting beliefs and unlocking how you want to feel so that you can, like, I feel like, I mean, I'm millennial. So I'm always like, there's so much untapped potential in here. Like there's so much more that I could be giving if I just wasn't getting in my own way. And that's what I really love focusing on with my clients is how can you like calm down those fears so that you're not getting in your own way.

And the thing that I think is so key is like what you were talking about with, I'm working with my inner child and my actual children. And I think when I find my clients, myself, we're butting up against these limiting beliefs over and over, what we tend to do is we tend to like beat ourselves up about it. Or we tend to like beat up that inner critic of like, you're ruining my life. This is the worst. Why do I have to think this way? This is like so terrible. And I want you instead to think about how you would interact with a very small child. So like my son went through a phase where he was scared of the dark and it drove me crazy because he wouldn't like go to the back of our house and go to the bathroom by himself.

Like you're five, you can do this by yourself. It's going to be fine. But if I use my adult logic brain to try to calm his child emotional brain, it's never going to work. But that's what we're trying to do to ourselves. We're trying to logic our way out of like, I should be fine giving this keynote. And I like, I have nothing to worry about. I have all those credentials. And we try to logic our way out of it. Where if you focus on talking to a small child with my son, I would say, okay, I get it. You're afraid of the dark. I'm going to be here with you. I'm going to walk with you. I'm going to hold your hand. It's going to be okay. Where what I wanted to say was like, there's nothing back there.

You're tall enough. Just turn on the lights. It's like, the logic isn't going to work. I have to play to the emotion. And that's what we can do with ourselves as well. If you were talking to a seven-year-old who was afraid to get on stage, would you be like, suck it up? It doesn't matter. Just like, go out there and crush it. Like, stand in your high energy zone and like, get it. Like, no, you would say like, I see you. I totally get it. This is scary. It's something you're worried about. And I'm going to be right here with you. And I'm going to take care of you every step of the way, even if this is a complete disaster. So, okay. Where's the threshold of the 10,000 hours? I know what I know.

So you brought up millennials. What cracks me up is a lot of millennials will want to be motivation. You know, a few years back, every millennial want to be a motivational speaker. And I'm like, what tragedy have you gone through in your life that, that allows you the right to stand up on, you know, just, you just yelling, you can do it. And like, that's like, what, what right do you have to stand up to motivate people? But yet there's this, okay, I, you know, I want to be that, right? So is there a point where you do have to, again, this is limiting belief coming from me, by the way, is, is, you know, that seven-year-old kid that I see on YouTube, who's like super hyped up and super motivated, but you know, mommy and daddy are paying for everything.

The kid's got to get a care in the world and he's never gone through a hardship in his life. Like, like that kid doesn't have imposter syndrome. Right. And so I guess where is that balance, if you will, of, okay, I'm, I'm, I know enough now to share my knowledge. And even though I might not feel a hundred percent confident that, that the world needs to hear this, to your point, there's, there's somebody two or three steps behind me that needs to hear this. Is there a point of that? Or does this, who fucking cares? It's just, if you feel like you can do something, go do it. So this is where I work with my clients constantly. I work with top performing sales AEs and you would look at them and you would say like anybody else would be like, I want to be where they are.

It sounds amazing. They must have like superior confidence. They always believe in themselves. And it's the people who are the top performers who have the imposter syndrome because they're at the top. I mean, like people should know that I'm not supposed to be here. So I actually don't think that there's any like 10,000, which by the way, the 10,000 rules, I know, I don't think that there is any point. And I think that that's the fallacy is that we all are kind of thinking like when I get to that point, like I remember when I was in the corporate world and I was like, I can't wait till I'm a director because then I'll just know, then I'll just know what the answer is. I'm like, no, they don't know.

They're making it up just as much as I'm making it up. So I love to work with my clients on reframing all of those things. One thing that comes up a lot, especially right now with everybody switching jobs is they're like, I don't know the product. I get on these calls and I feel like a complete imposter in front of my client because I don't know the product. I'm new to this. And I think like that doesn't matter at all. What you are good at and what you are being paid for is your relationship skills. Yeah. So I think to answer your question in all of this, it all comes down to reframing the things that you think are weaknesses and seeing that those are actually your competitive advantages. I can't tell you how many people that I talk with who are like, well, I'm not going to be successful in sales because I'm an introvert or because I'm a woman or because I don't have the same experience or because I don't have a typical sales background.

I'm like, there's no such thing as a typical sales background. No, absolutely not. Right. Like I didn't, I didn't like grow up in sales. And so they have all these different reasons why they feel like they're the odd person out and they're not going to be successful. And they, they have this idea that like the successful business person looks like this. They're shaped like a square and I'm a circle. So I don't think I'm going to be able to make it. And I want to argue to every one of them, like, because you are a circle that differentiates you. And that is the reason why you're going to be so successful in sales. And if you can just like let go of all these, all these kind of like untrue beliefs that you have about yourself, that's how you can unleash all the success that's just waiting to come out of you.

And that's, anyway, that's why I love what I do. No, you're spot on. It's funny because, you know, that, that thing about, you know, data and me and like having to feel like I have to back things up. Yeah. The reason, so, and Josh Braun, he's in our space. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he, like he got into training and he credits it to a certain degree a little bit for, you know, see, watching me in my journey. And he said the fact that the reason that he absolutely fell in love with my, me and my approach and everything was he was sitting in that room when somebody said, Hey, where's that data come from? I'm like, I don't fucking know what, you know, like, that's not the point.

And I went and I went at it and he's like, he's like, John, every other presenter I've ever seen will go into detail about the study, about where they found it, about, and they'll give you the reference to it and they'll talk about the validity of it. And you were just like, I don't fucking know. I don't care. Like the point is this. And he's like, as soon as you said that, I was like, holy shit, this is somebody I want to follow. This is somebody I want to pay attention to. So to your point of turning it into a superpower, I do think there is a little bit of an experience and I don't, I agree that the 10,000 hours has been debunked, but there is something about being in your lane for a period of time that puts you in a position to feel comfortable to have the conversations.

And my thresholds, my experiences at least is that kind of in your twenties, you're always looking up, right? Because you don't know what you don't know. You're trying a bunch of things out and you see the gray beards and you're like, man, they're smarter than me, they're more successful than me, whatever. But then if you stay in your lane for a while and you kind of pick, you know, and you experiment in your twenties, like trying to figure out about it. Then in the thirties, you kind of pick a lane and you're like, okay, I'm pretty. And you realize you're pretty good, but you're still looking up and you're still holding onto your twenties. You still kind of think you're cool. Right. And so, but it's weird.

And I've talked to a lot of people about this. It's literally almost at 40 years old. If you've been doing something for long enough at 40 years old, you start having conversations with people that like a 20 something and you're talking about like, it's drinking water and they're looking at you like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What did you just say? Like, you know, like for me, if I talk about like emails and research, you know, and all like prospecting and stuff like that, like, ah, you know, I've been doing it for 25 years. The kid who just came out of school is looking at me like, oh my God, wait a minute, say that again. Let me write that down. And it was like this light bulb that went off for me at around 40 that I was like, holy shit.

Like, maybe I do know what I'm talking about. You know what I mean? And that's where it's like, okay, now, now, all right. You know, maybe not. I still have the imposter syndrome to the people who are above me or people have bigger titles than me. But to the masses that are maybe a step or two behinds, maybe I do have something to offer here. And that's, I think I got a lot of confidence, you know, kind of hitting that lane at around 40. So I do think there is some, I think the 10,000 hours has been debunked and I know that, but there is something to being, doing something for long enough where you do become the industry expert de facto just because you've done it so long. Do you feel that? Yeah.

So the way I describe that is that you have your lower brain and you have your higher brain. Your lower brain is focused on keeping you alive. So it's constantly searching for risks. People say, I don't understand why I'm so negative. I'm looking at all the negative things. And I say, that's your brain trying to keep you alive. And so anything that is an unknown feels like a risk. And I always give the example of when I learned to mountain bike and I was like, I don't have any confidence that I can mountain bike because I've never done it before. But once you take action enough and have done that thing enough times, your lower brain is like, okay, we did it five times and we didn't die. So I'm going to add that to the approved list.

This is where you are with keynotes. This is where you are with hiring people. This is where you are with doing your podcast. When you first start doing these things, which bringing this full circle, this is why the imposter syndrome is a passing effect. Once you do that thing enough times, you no longer feel like an imposter because you've done it enough times. And you can assuredly say that you have confidence. You won't die if you do it again. So taking action is the best way to build confidence because you've done it enough times that you know you can do it again. And it's only as you are in that growth phase that you feel the imposter syndrome. What I love to remind my clients is there were so many times in the past where you felt like an imposter at individual things.

And now you don't. The best way to stop feeling imposter syndrome is to just keep going and don't make it mean anything about you. It's not actually a medical condition. It's a sign that you're a wild success. It's a sign that you're somebody who is willing to get out of your comfort zone. And that is why you've seen all the growth that you have. I think I could continue to talk about this for, I think I feel like, I feel like I'm getting a free therapy session, but anything else that, I mean, outside of people, and we'll talk about where, where to send people, but anything else that we miss that people should be paying or I should be paying attention to as it relates to imposter syndrome. So the one thing that I think we didn't touch on quite yet is the three different flavor, flavors of imposter syndrome.

This is helpful because this will help you to identify how it shows up for you. The first is feeling like a fraud and feeling like people are going to find out that you don't know what you're doing. They're going to shine the spotlight on you and be like, we found you out. You're making all of this up. You're kicked out. The second flavor is feeling like you just got lucky. You were just in the right place at the right time. The people who hired you or put you in this position were temporarily incompetent, which is very counterintuitive because also those people are usually too smart that you don't belong with them, but they had to be incompetent in order to put you in that position. So notice if you feel like you just got lucky.

And then the third flavor of imposter syndrome is downplaying all your achievements, saying like, oh, it was no big deal. It wasn't that big of a situation. Like anybody could have done it. My favorite example of this is a guy who got a PhD in rocket science and was like, oh, anybody could have done it. It was not that big of a deal. Right. We're like, no, not everybody could have done it. But this is how... Dude, that's a saying. You're not a rocket scientist. It's an actual saying. Right. That means you're a genius. Exactly. But this is how we think about ourselves. Like, I'm sure that you tend to do this a lot. Like, oh, it was no big deal. It was like anybody could have done it. And yet the rest of us look at you and we're like, no, like, no, that's not even true at all.

So notice if one of those three flavors comes up for you and that is how you can help to identify this imposter syndrome. And then my biggest advice for people is like, you're going to feel imposter syndrome. There's no way to stop feeling it as long as you're continuing to grow. Just don't make it mean anything about you. It doesn't have to mean anything about you. It just means your brain is worried that you're taking a risk. You're uncomfortable. But if you think about getting uncomfortable when you start a new fitness routine, everybody's fine with that. Like, you start a new fitness routine, you feel sore, and it's fine. But yet if you get uncomfortable starting a new brain growth routine, suddenly everything's wrong.

I'm not supposed to be here. This is the wrong place. I'm not cut out for this. Like, it doesn't mean anything about you. It just means you're growing. That's the analogy I use on that is golf, right? It's like the first time you play golf, it's the weirdest fucking thing on the planet. Like, you know, all of us, I didn't play. I mean, unless you were introduced when you were five and good for you, if that's the case, not me. Like, I hit golf when I was in my 30s. And, you know, what happens when you put a golf club in somebody's hand who's never played golf before? They hold it like a baseball bat, right? Because at least as kids, we all held it as baseball. And then they tell you to interlock your fingers, stick your thumbs down, you know, keep your arms straight, straighten your back, stick your ass out.

And you're like, honestly, the first time I was, I'm like, is this like America's Funniest Home Video? Like, are you guys recording me? Am I getting punked right now? I feel like an idiot. And they were like, no, no, I'll swing through and keep your shoulder. And like the first, when you do it, you're like, this is, I mean, this is the most awkward, stupid thing I think I've ever done. But you do it enough times. The next time, you know, after a while, somebody hands you a golf club, the immediate thing you do is you put your, you interlock your fingers, you put your thumb, you know what I mean? So it's, it is that, that growth phase that I think is, I think that's probably the thing that, that, that resonates with me the most is that the reason you have it is because you, you're not only just successful, but you continue to grow.

And I think that is a comforting understanding of it as opposed to a limiting belief component to it, right? Because I think it, it's, you can easily have it be a limiting belief of, oh man, I don't deserve this. I don't belong here. I don't. And so that it prevents you from doing it. But if you make that flip to, no, this is actually a positive thing. It's because I am growing. I am getting better. I think it's an easier way to. This is evidence that I'm exactly where I want to be. Yeah. This is evidence that I'm exactly on the right track. All right. Well, you make me feel a little bit better about my imposter syndrome. I appreciate it. I know I got a lot more work to do. And to your point, I probably should go to therapy every once in a while just to, you know, see, see what happened before 11 years old, just to make sure there was no big T that happened.

But awesome. Well, Amber, it's been a pleasure talking to you. What's, where do you want people to go? What do you want people to know about you as far as where to direct people? You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm just Amber Diver on LinkedIn. You can go to linkedin.com slash in slash Amber Divert. You can also find me. I have two podcasts. I love podcasts. I have the Achievers podcast. And I have another one that I do with a friend called Get In Your Right Mind Conversation with Life Coaches. Yeah. Stephanie Pickle is the co-host. Pickle. How can I forget that? Pickle. You guys spent like the first couple of minutes talking about her. Pickle. Coolest last name ever. Like legitimately her last name is Pickle.

I love it. And for those listening on the podcast, it's Amber Divert, D-E-I-B-E-R-T. Go check her out on LinkedIn. Go listen to that podcast. I listened to it to prep for this one and enjoyed every minute of it and enjoyed every minute of this conversation. So Amber, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you, John. Hopefully the fallout from this therapy session is not too bad. Yeah. No, I think it's a good one. I think it's a positive one. I'm moving in the right direction. And everybody else, thanks for listening as always. And like I always say at the end of all my podcasts here, go out there and make somebody smile today because no matter how bad your day is or is going, if you go out and make somebody smile, you know you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that.

So thank you all for listening and I will see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads and I can't thank you enough. To keep the momentum going, if you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it. In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM and I will get right back to you, I promise. And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses.

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