Be the Mentor Who Mattered: How Mentorship Drives Real Revenue with Colleen Stanley

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Now let's get on with the show. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health and everything in between. We guess who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Now today I'm joined by Colleen Stanley. She is the president of sales leadership and one of the leading experts on emotional intelligence and sales. Salesforce named her one of the most influential sales figures of the 21st century. She is a sales hall of fame inductee and she has written three books. Now her first two, emotional intelligence for sales success and emotional intelligence for sales leadership made the case that EQ, which I've been talking about for a while now, is the missing skill most sales orgs are ignoring.

And that first book is now published in six different languages. Colleen grew up in a farm in Northwest Iowa, population 900, and she started her sales career on straight commission, selling school spirit apparel for Varsity Spirit Corporation. And over 10 years, grew that division from 25 million to 50 million, running a team of 130 reps. She's been in the sales game for a while now, and she has a new book out called The Mentor Who Mattered. She said the title came to her in a hike in Colorado foothills and what she calls a divine download. And she sat on it for four years before writing it. The book makes the argument that mentorship is no longer a nice to have, it's a competitive advantage, and that we need mentorship cultures, not mentorship programs.

We're going to get into her origin story, why EQ matters more now than ever with AI making IQ a commodity, how mentorship actually drives revenue, and who should and should not be mentoring the next generation of sellers. Hope you enjoy this one as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Pauline Stanley, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How are you doing today? You know, I am doing great. Coming to you from sunny Denver, Colorado. Ah, very nice. Very nice. How's the weather out there these days? Well, you know, we have had one of these winters where, you know, you think of Denver, you think of skiing. We have not had a lot of snow like a lot of people, which has been kind of nice, but at the same time, we're starting to look at summer going, okay, we need a little moisture, but overall, it's a pretty easy place to live.

Yeah. My wife's an environmental scientist, and so I pay attention to that more than most. And, you know, the droughts out west and all that stuff, it's kind of getting a little scary because, to your point, like here it's gotten warmer, obviously, and it's like, hey, I'll take it, but that's not a good sign. You know what I mean? In general, like winters being warm here in Boston are not a good sign, so. Yeah. When we see cigarettes in the neighborhood, we're like, put them out. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. So, awesome, Colleen. Well, I've been looking forward to this conversation because, you know, you've written a few books. You've got a new one coming out about mentorship, which I've always been curious about definition because I think a lot of people think about it a lot differently in different cases, and some do more harm than good in a lot of ways.

So, I think it's really important now, especially for the older generation, to step up and start mentoring some of this younger generation right now. But the other books that you wrote are on EQ, which I think is really important right now because of the advent of AI and how IQ is pretty much a commodity at this point. So, we're going to get into those things. But, Colleen, like I always like to do on all these podcasts, is just origin story. Talk to us about what we can't learn on LinkedIn. Where'd you grow up? Parent influence? Kind of what was your journey like before you hit college? And then we'll talk a little bit about college and then all the way through to what you're doing today. All right.

Very good. Well, I actually grew up on a farm in Northwest Iowa, John. So, it was a very, very small town, population 900. So, I always make the joke that you had dated everybody by the time you were a senior in high school. That's where my business development skills started. But I will tell you, growing up on a farm, there were a couple of things. You know, it was very much free play. So, you learned a lot of risk-taking. You know, you're climbing trees. You're on roofs. I don't know where the parents were. You know, thank goodness they were around. They were like, come in at five. All right. And then from there, I went to school in Mankato State and actually, it was kind of interesting. I was pearled to go home and marry my high school boyfriend, who is, you know, a terrific human being.

But I landed in this two-year medical secretary program and I was at a four-year college and I started getting good grades in anatomy and physiology and biology. And I thought, well, maybe I can do this four-year thing. And so, I think that's why I've always been a big proponent of education because, you know, if you can get exposed to things and not that there would have been anything wrong, you know, going back and to my hometown because it's a great place to live and grow up. But, you know, it did open up a big new world there. From there, I worked at the American Cancer Society and then I was a buyer for three years. So, I would, I was a buyer for off-price stores and think TJ Maxx. So, we'd go into New York City once a month and we would purchase the goods that either got stuck in customs or they weren't selling through it like a Dillard's or a Macy's.

And so, it was a really interesting experience because that's where I really learned numbers don't lie. You don't even have to have good taste to be a buyer. You have to know patterns and trends. And so, that was a really interesting experience there. And, you know, you learn some good negotiation skills as well. I was going to ask. Yeah. I was going to ask on that one from a buyer perspective because I always said, you know, buyers get trained on how to negotiate better than we do from a sales standpoint, right? Because they not only get the buyer negotiation side, but they also get shown or taught how the sellers negotiate with them. So, for that job, was there any like distinct training you did take from a buyer standpoint or things you learned about how to get the most out of the sale from the buyer standpoint?

Because I think the audience would really love to hear kind of what it's like from that side and what are some of the things that they look for and how do they leverage things outside of just like procurement is procurement. I'd love to get some insights there. Well, you know what's interesting, John? I didn't know it because I was in my 20s. But the company, the way they set us up for success was that we had the ability to do something called you lay paper in the market, meaning we could sign a purchase order right then and there. Most buyers had to go back to their buying offices, look at their open to buy. And so, right there when you're sitting in front of a buyer and you're going to say, I'll take those thousand pieces, but I'm only going to pay $5.

You've got the scarcity principle at play, but I didn't know about any of those things at that point. I just knew I had a boss that you go out and get that at $5. So that was something that really the process set us up for success because they gave us that much freedom to make the decisions right on the spot. So that was a good lesson. Were there any guidelines that they gave you or you could kind of do whatever you felt was the right thing to do based on the numbers? You know what? It was about the numbers. And then I will tell you every day as a buyer, I ended up with a big report. This is before, you know, computers and such. And I would end up with a big report and I knew what was selling at store 19 versus store 12.

So that's where I probably really paid attention. And I would have a boss come in, wasn't real high in the EQ, but did teach me a lot. He'd sit down and go, okay, how's that pair of jeans selling at store 14? And you better know. And where do we need to discount and what's not moving? So you got really on top of your numbers with that job. Anytime I've worked in sales, it's always been straight commission. So really? Yes. It's been straight commission. My first sales job, it really launched me in this business with Varsity Brands. And so they were a small company that then blew up into a big company. Today, they're the largest in the world in their industry posting, I think revenues of 3 billion.

But when we started, I was a member of their first sales team. So we were straight commission, paying all our own expenses. We went through the GGG program, you know, go get them. Good luck. That was our training. And so I have to give my boss credit because I'm going to tell you, he knew how to hire. We were all kind of self-starters, really hard workers. And we were really passionate about what we were selling, which, you know, we might get into today because that makes all the difference in the world, right? So, yeah. I'm sorry. What was that job again? It was with Varsity Brands. When I started with Varsity Spirit Corporation. So they own the school spirit market. Think of chilling uniforms, camps, sporting equipment.

At one time, they had class rings, yearbooks. So it's the school spirit business. 100% draw. I'm sorry. 100% commission. You know, that's a scary thing for a lot of reps. Even for me, early in my career, I always felt like I always say I'm a risk taker, but I'm not a risk taker, right? For me, I'm a calculated risk taker. And so I always felt like I needed some type of base back then when I didn't have a lot of confidence, even though I was pretty confident. Because I'm like, oh, what if one month I just don't show up? And then when I was able to, when, you know, sold companies and then got fired from that and then I had to start my own thing, I realized I was 100% commission rep. And I realized, like, I'll never go back because I love it.

But man, you know, I'm a pretty self-motivated person. If you need motivation, like, be 100% commission. So, John, when I've seen reps and training, and I know you've got thousands of hours of training under your belt, and you don't see somebody that's not learning the product or the selling skill, I just ask one question. How long would it take you to learn your product or this skill if you're working straight commission? And I always get this, like, well, not that long. And, you know, you think about it, you know, that's the mindset. You don't have a lot of time to get good. So you get good fast. We're, let me ask you, I mean, back then, how many women were in this? I mean, I know kind of varsity, cheerleading, so it's probably a woman kind of oriented business.

But in your sales team of the profiles that they were hiring, how many women were in that, if you don't mind me asking? You know, mine is very different than a lot of women my age, because most of them were in the minority. I was not. I was in the majority. So we were almost all women. And in fact, when I was VP of sales, I had a team of 130. And I would say maybe I had five male sales reps. So very, very different environment. And they were competitive. They were hardworking. I mean, like my reps in Texas, I always make this joke. If you called them up, they'd answer and go, what do you want? I'm fine. Go. And so, I mean, so I had a very different upbringing than some of my upbringing. Listen to that.

But a start in sales than some of my colleagues that started in tech sales or automotive sales. So, yeah, different experience. Yeah. Because, you know, a lot of people, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with Lori Richardson. Oh, sure. And all that. Like she's, you know, her story is incredible. And I always look at thinking of even still it's male dominated world in the sales world. But even back then, I'm like, oh, my God, like how the misogyny, the bullshit to deal with and all that stuff. So the fact that they got through that. And I'm glad to hear that there were huge women organizations back then kicking ass. Because you went, you took that company like what was it, 8 million to 90 million?

Yeah. And that was both divisions. But, you know, it was rapid growth, John. And it was all organic growth. You know, getting to the 3 billion and not taking away from any of it was some acquisitions. But, yeah, we were organic growth. So when I was VP of sales, we grew from 25 million to 50 million in four years. And so, you know, we were onboarding a lot of reps. And, you know, part of that was the company. Again, I give them so much credit. That's why they've been mentioned in, you know, I think all three of my books. Because when I take a look at that, it was just such great opportunity. They kind of let us run. And, you know, they were always watching, but they let us run. And so that was a great experience.

So two parts for both books. When did EQ start becoming a conscious thing for you that was necessary and important versus just an organic thing that you kind of already knew? And also, where was the, with this company specifically, was there a mentorship program? Was there a mentorship structure in this? So kind of the two different angles here. When did either one of those really start to take hold for you? So the EQ probably started taking hold when I was working at the company. Because I was the proverbial bull in a china shop. So you know how we talk about, you know, women need to lean in. Well, John, I was not leaning in. I'm leaning in across the table choking people. Okay. And I'm not proud of it.

But I was really, I was a hothead. And so, you know, I was trying to, like, fix it. And so I'll give you a quick story. So I had purchased, you know, this is back in the day when you had those car tapes. And I had a CD in my car, and it must have been positive affirmation. So we're going to lunch. And my colleague, Joe Long, gets in the car. And out of the tape deck comes, I like myself. I'm calm. Joe looks at me like, is everything okay? But what I was trying to do with the knowledge I have now is I was trying to change my mindset. So I think even back in the 90s, I knew this behavior, it was the only way I knew how to get things done. So when a colleague brought to me when I started my own business, she brought me the idea of emotional intelligence.

She and her business partner had been teaching it in the leadership space. And I'm pretty good at ideation. And all of a sudden, I started going, oh, this is the missing piece. So, you know, like, you know, emotional regulation. If you get triggered, you can't negotiate. Assertiveness is how you get clear next steps. You know, assertiveness is how you get, you know, qualify or disqualify if they'll let you get to all the buying influences. Impulse control is critical if you're running, you know, discovery and asking questions. So it just made sense to me. And then the emotional regulation part, obviously, because, you know, again, I've been that bull in a china shop and I always got a lot done.

But is that the expense of my own energy? And frankly, you know, leaving some bloody bodies on the way. Yeah, that's a relationship. Yeah, because I've always I've always, you know, thankfully for me, I think I just because my parents or whatever, you know, pretty empathetic. You know, I've always been able to read the room really easily. Like I always say I'm not the smartest kid out there by any stretch of the imagination from a like IQ standpoint. But my I think my EQ is pretty high. And and so it's hard for for somebody, I think, who it comes naturally to to to then try to teach people that that empathy, that that EQ components, because I'm good at teaching, OK, here's what to do tactically and everything else.

But if you're not a good person, I like I don't even I don't even almost want to work with you, quite frankly, because I have this almost reaction when you're a douche. I'm like, all right, you know, like, screw you. And so I've learned to deal with that, obviously. I mean, I was a waiter, so, you know, you get to learn to deal with difficult people and sales is all about that. But I guess what are some of the there's I know there's a lot to unpack with EQ, but where where is the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to EQ? Is it self-awareness? Is it is there something that that is specific and related to sales that somebody could work on or recognize like you did that something's off here?

I know I need to fix this. How do they how they become self-aware that that EQ is a weakness of theirs? Well, it's interesting that you locked in on self-awareness because that is the mega skill. So if you think about it, I always say that what you're not aware of, you cannot change and that what you're not aware of, you're bound to repeat. So if you can have the awareness of, OK, this is where I'm lacking assertiveness. I'm going into passive aggressive behavior or aggressive behavior. This is where I'm lacking impulse control, where I'm jumping in with solutions too soon. But if you back that up, you've got to recognize the trigger that's creating that behavior. And so sometimes it's a person, sometimes it's a behavior or a statement.

And so in order to improve self-awareness, you know, I wish I could. It's a very simple solution. And yet it's one most people aren't going to do in this day and age. You literally have to carve out quiet time to think and reflect. And so, you know, I'm I'm a big one to say, you know, don't look at your phone first thing in the morning because that will take your belief system and go, oh, my gosh, I've got all these texts coming in. Whatever's coming in, I don't have time for downtime. If you can take five minutes and just sit there and go, OK, where did I get triggered yesterday? What was the statement? Who was the person? What was the behavior? What would have been a better response? But it's also kind of taking a humble pill where you go, was I the trigger?

Because, John, you've probably seen with the amount of training you do, Zoom calls. And you know how many reps are sitting there like this? Well, I'm thinking they're probably doing that on a sales call, too. So if you've got resting business face, as my friend Julie Hanson calls it, right? And you can't figure out why you're not closing business. It's because you look disinterested and you might be fully curious and interested, but you didn't bring your face. OK, yeah, because I because the humble, you know, that's I've had to eat humble pie quite a bit. And I got a good recipe. Yeah, a great one. But I think that self-awareness is the hard part of and how do you approach somebody who let's take it.

Now, let's kind of bridge the gap to the mentorship component here. How do you approach somebody who, you know, doesn't like has low EQ and is not self-aware without offending them? Because I think that that that defense mechanism always comes, especially when you're telling me, like, this is a characteristic of mine. You know what I mean? John, you have resting business face. John, you know, like you, you, you obviously don't care about other people. You know what I mean? Like there's something missing there. And that is a very difficult conversation to have with somebody. So how do you get that? Is there a way that you can have that conversation? Or are there things that you have to kind of suggest people do to start to figure out that self-reflection before you can really approach them about the hard conversation?

You know, so there's a couple of things that the good thing is, John, EQ can be improved if you have the desire and commitment. There are literally, I remember being in front of a bunch of CEOs a few years ago. And, you know, we have an assessment that, you know, shows your competencies. And he held his up and his empathy was very low. And he goes, I really don't care. And he did not. And you know what? And maybe he's in a business where everybody wants to work there. They're the only player in town, right? So, but here's where I'm even going to back up a little bit. What I've been suggesting to a lot of companies, change your onboarding process. Because, you know, we get very focused on product and selling skills.

And they are absolutely important. I believe we need to be teaching these soft skills. And so, what you're talking about is feedback. And as you're onboarding people, there are concepts that you can teach about being a person that's mentorable. And so, you know, what happens a lot of times is they don't separate their do from their who, right? So, most feedback is on your role performance. But where do we take it? Personally. But what if you learn that in the onboarding process? And I don't care if you're 50 or 25. You also, in the onboarding process, could be teaching. Guess what? When people care, they share. And when people stop sharing, they don't care. Because your yeah, but statements have put them into apathy.

So, that's where I think you could start with the problem. You know, the problem of feedback. But then, we're human beings. And a framework I learned from a friend of mine. He's an executive coach, Will Matthews. And he uses the ICP framework. And he says, state your intent. My intent is to give you some feedback on this behavior. My concern is that you're going to take it personally. You might get a little defensive. And the permission is, is this a good time to talk about it? So, instead of kind of springing feedback on somebody, you get their permission. And as you know, you know, when you study the brain, when people feel in control, their defenses go down. So, that's why, you know, in sales, as you and I teach, hey, can I ask you a few questions?

Which sounds like, why are you saying that? Well, it's all neuroscience, right? Let's put the person in charge and such. I don't know if that's the question. Yeah, no, it does. Yeah. It does. And what I'm interested in is, you know, I'm always for feedback. I'm like, I'll take it. Sometimes I take it better than others. But I've kind of learned, okay, yes, the more the better, right? And I actively seek it out. I've noticed, and I don't know if it's a generational thing. I don't know if it's because of how we've evolved with, you know, camera, you know, everything virtual and all this other stuff. But I've noticed that feedback is really challenging right now because the younger generation does not like getting it.

And the older generation doesn't know how to give it. And because there's this kind of heightened level of sensitivity, the coaching, like outside of mentorship, like the coaching and the feedback loop is challenging because what I see now is like managers, usually they get promoted because they were the best rep, right? So they don't really give, not only do they not get management training, they don't get any coaching, any EQ training. And so when they give feedback to a rep, the rep takes it personally, like you said, and inherently feedback is subjective, inherently, okay? So if I'm a rep and I got a boss and I don't think my boss likes me, right? Or they play favorites, whatever. It almost doesn't matter what that feedback I'm getting from that boss is.

I'm going to discard it because I'm going to think that he or she doesn't like me. And then I might even go, you know, to HR and complain to HR that my boss doesn't like me. They gave me hard feedback. And now that boss is in HR doing meetings that they don't want to be in. So now bosses are throwing up their hands and saying, you know what? You're fine. You know what I mean? Like you're good. And they don't give the hard feedback. And I feel like the only way people can truly improve is when they get the real, direct, honest feedback about who they are. I mean, we had that, we had, there was a little mastermind that I did this weekend with a group of guys. And we all are peers in the industry and we got together and, you know, it was no holes barred.

Like we were like, look, here's, here's how we see you. Here's how the market sees you. Here's what we think you're saying. Oh, how valuable is that? Oh, insanely valuable. Right. And, and, you know, some people got a little defensive, but we like, look, we're doing this because we care. We're doing this because we want to help you improve. But I just feel like there's, I'm, I'm almost scared to give feedback sometimes to, to the younger generation because I'm, I'm worried that they're not going to take it the way that I'm meaning it. Right. Cause I'm from Boston. I'm in your face and whatever. And, and sometimes I'm like, dude, I don't have time for this shit. Like, just like, here's, here's.

And then you see them like, I'm like, no, no, no, no. Oh God. Okay. All right. Nevermind. I have to back way up here and, you know, couch you through this and shit, which I don't have time for. So it's kind of hard for a lot of managers. Are you, A, are you seeing that? B, how do you, maybe that ICP is a great way to frame it. So it, so it's, it's, it's expected. Are there other ways that you can position that so that people want feedback and know how to give it? So, you know, a couple of things, you change your hiring process, right? So you test and vet if they've ever received feedback and if they did anything with us. So we could, you know, I always like to work upstream because why are we getting into these situations?

Where we've got eggshell people, right? So I like to, I like to prevent, but there are going to be times, no matter how well your vetting process is, you're on boarding. Here's what I found that works well in giving feedback. It's empathy followed by assertiveness. Now there's a, there's, this is situational. If you've got a repeat offender, it's just time to be assertive. Okay. It is just time to be assertive. Here's the deadline, but I'm talking about first time. So empathy would be, and I'm going to play off what you just said there. John, you know, I want to give you some feedback here. And my concern is now here's the empathy part. You're going to think I play favorites. I don't give this feedback to anybody else.

I'm kind of picking on you. Is that fair? Now, when I say what you're thinking or feeling, that's empathy. And you might go, yeah, well, let's talk about that first before we go any further. And you start finding out the story in John's head. Well, you did this, this, and this. Oh, let me explain why I did it. So I'll give you an example. I think maybe the audience can relate to CRM usage, right? Okay. So you're the top producer. You're not putting your stuff in CRM. Let's just have the fun conversation. So you got to have the stuff in the CRM because I'm the VP of sales and I got to report up and I got to tell the company how much money we're actually going to make. And you know, all those financials, here's what the top producers thinking, Joe and Jennifer aren't hitting their numbers.

Why are you bugging me? Go bug them. And if you're going to have the CRM conversation, you actually need to say that. Hey, Joe, right now you're probably thinking I'm hitting my numbers. Get off my back. You got three people here that aren't. So when you can say what somebody's thinking or feeling, the emotional temperature drops. When you connect with them, you can get their story. And then after that, you can be assertive. And then you state why you need the state of behavior. So that's called empathy and assertiveness together. And that can be a great way to give feedback. Now, what's funny, my husband and I, so we've been married 25 years. He was in the Marines for four years. So what they did in the Marines, they'd say, permission to speak.

So because we're both high drivers. I mean, you look at the disc model, we are high Ds, right? Married to each other. So we have a habit of saying permission to speak. And we know incoming is coming in, right? But what it does is, you know, it prepares you. And there's times I go, no. And then my husband, Jim, will say, but I asked for permission. I said, just not ready to see. So we're using humor to diffuse some of the feedback we're going to give each other. I like that. It's almost to a certain degree, like you deal with clients, right? I, you know, with objection handling in a lot of ways. You talk, I talk about the preemptive strike. Like, you know, it's going to be an objection. So instead of them sitting with it or having it and using it later, like, I'm just going to pull it out.

Like, I'm guessing you think we're way more, way too expensive compared to what you've been out there. Am I, am I on the right path? Yes. Okay, cool. Now that breaks that down. Now it's not an objection. Now it's a conversation. So it sounds like a similar approach. Because you see, that's empathy. You may not frame it that way. That is empathy. Because again, I'm going to say empathy is knowing what somebody's thinking or feeling. And so you're reading the room, as you said, was a talent of yours. Well, that when you read the room and you say what they're thinking or feeling, that brings up the elephant. So for example, if you know, you know, your solution's better, but guess what? The prospect's already working 60 hours a week and to bring your system in, it's going to be another 10 or that's what they're thinking.

You got to bring up, listen, right now you might be thinking, yeah, we got a better solution, but the hassle factor. Last time you tried something like this, put more work on your plate and you don't have time. Yeah. Talk to me about that. Because then you'll find out why it was such a hassle. And then, and only then can you explain, oh, here's how we're going to eliminate that. So that's empathy that you're demonstrating there. Love that. So, so let's talk about the bridge to, to mentorship, right? With the kind of the new focus, why all of a sudden, because you wrote two books on empathy, one for reps or individuals and then one for leaders. And then you made the jump to, to mentorship. Why, why did mentorship jump to the list of something you were like, because I think there was something I read in here about you.

You wrote the book, the name of the book, like on a, on a walk or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And so talk to me about like, when did that dawn on you and why did it, why did it facilitate you to like, say, I have to write a book on this? Cause it's that important. Well, it's interesting. So again, I live in the foothills of Colorado. I hike a lot and it was like a divine download. It was like, be the mentor who mattered. And I was like, where did that come from? But I did buy the URL when I got home and it just kept simmering and simmering. So I think part of it was John, as part of my morning routine, because I believe in practicing the physiology of feeling good. You know, I always start with gratitude every morning and what I had gotten into a habit of without even really consciously knowing it.

I would mentally go through all the mentors I had in my life, all the way from grade school throughout my corporate career and beyond. And I would just give thanks for that. Well, then it just kept the, it just kept kind of calling me. And then I started observing some things. And this isn't saying my generation doesn't have issues, but I saw with the younger generation because they are growing up with social media and the phones. It's a whole bunch of stuff we did not have to deal with. And there were a couple of things I was seeing from that. Number one, empathy was dropping because you can't develop empathy looking down. Okay. It's looking up and around, paying attention. There was a lot of the comparison game going on.

Well, I had a lack of focus. I had a, I had a client that I fired because the leader wasn't strong enough to say, put the daggum cell phones away. Really? I mean, and that's, and it's going to require a different type of leadership out there because you can't learn when you're multitasking. But the third was also I saw with, and technology is not bad. I mean, I'm so glad I have a GPS versus the Rand McNally, you know, those maps you used to have, oh my God, you know, talk about distracted driving. But I also saw this, I'm getting concerned. We were becoming a self-absorbed society, whether other absorbed. And so we've got all of this increased anxiety, depression, suicide. And I thought, well, part of this is we need mentors to show us a better way.

And, you know, Simon Sinek said it really well. He said, you know, we'd be given this great technology. We handed it over, but we didn't teach people how to use it. And so it's kind of like giving a 16-year-old, as he said, the keys to the car, but no driver's head, you know, driver's head. The other one was the pace of change. And so I was at an event. So I always like to make a joke because, you know, how you talk about your events that are real fancy. But it was overseas and I'm sitting next to this very, very smart engineer. It was dinner after the training. And this was probably five years ago, John. And he was talking about how overwhelmed he was keeping up with the pace of change. That was five years ago before artificial intelligence.

So where am I going with that? If we don't develop mentorship cultures where people are expected to help and serve one another, you can't go to loan anymore. I mean, loan rangers used to do fine in sales. I don't believe those are the people you want on your teams anymore. Too much information coming in. Well, and also like the, I don't believe that in this world of AI that anybody's going to survive by themselves. I think it's going to be a team oriented, any organ, well, let me say any organization, you know, the siloed sales versus marketing versus this versus that, like if that doesn't break down, those, those companies are going to fail hard. And so that, that culture of, of teamwork, of mentorship, I think that that's kind of part of it as well is how do we create a team of mentors?

How do we create a team of people, you know, cause you don't have to be the senior leadership to be a mentor, you know? No, absolutely not. And I think that's what people mistake. And it's like, oh, I have to get to a certain level of my career before I can mentor somebody. It's like, you're really good at something and you can mentor on that thing. And, and, and that's another thing I wanted to dispel here, which is, you know, I think people look at, I need a mentor. No, you don't. You need a lot of them because some people are really good at some things and some people are really good at other things and you need different perspectives from everybody. So what's your thoughts on, on, on kind of how to look for a mentor, you know, what areas should you be prioritizing from a mentorship standpoint?

Well, I'm going to flip the script here a little bit because, you know, and your thought is correct. However, you know, often we say, go find a mentor. John, in my twenties and thirties, I didn't know I needed a mentor. I didn't even know I was being mentored. So my charge is you go find a mentee and because see, that's where I got very fortunate in corporate. I just had these mentors. We had no formal mentorship program. I think formal mentorship is great, but think about small and medium sized companies, you know, do they have the HR department, the L and D department to do that, but I got a lot of informal. So I'll give you an example. Um, when I was promoted to vice president of sales, remember the fast growing company.

So I had two things. I had a mentor moment. The national sales manager job had come up. I was a regional. I was not applying for the job and we're at the catalog shoot and the founder of the company sits down beside him and he was more involved on the other division. And he's just, you know, kind of have a small talk and, uh, he goes, why aren't you applying for the job? And I gave a bunch of excuses. One was, I think I'm going to be a field manager like the other managers and another excuse. And I finally just fessed up and I said, I'm not ready. And he replied, we know we'll help get you ready. Now that's one conversation. That's how mentorship can happen. And I was like, oh, I didn't know people could help you, but then it goes on further.

So I become this vice president of sales. I've got a bigger budget. The CFO, Bob Duncy. Now we were all crazy busy during the day. I'm telling you, there were probably two or three nights where we stayed there till 10 o'clock and he is teaching me the metrics of a profit and loss statement. He didn't hire me. He didn't promote me. He could have said, you guys promoted or you take care of it. That's mentorship. So it goes back to, do you need a program or do you need a culture? And I think you need a mentorship culture where everybody's stepping up and helping up. But what's the framework? Because I think mentorship, you know, all good intentions could do a lot of damage, right? Talk to me about that.

Well, you know, there are some people that think they're good. They think they're, they have knowledge to share, to mentor and they, you know, want to, but they might, you know, A, and this is why I cringe on mentorship programs where they assign a mentor to, because like, let's just use you and I, right. If you and I are in a, in a, in a corporation together, right. And, um, I don't, you and I don't get along. Okay. So we're peers, but we don't get along. And somebody you mentor, well, now I'm looking at the person you're mentoring as an extension of you in a lot of ways. And if you or me, either one within the organization are not, uh, fondly, uh, looked at, you know what I mean? Or somebody who's like, Oh God, John, you know what I mean?

Well, whoever I mentor is going to get that stink on them in a lot of ways. If it's a, if it's an independent, like if this is my thing, it's like, Oh great. Now John's got another one. He's going to turn them into another douche bag. Right. So, so I think there's a challenge in the like assigned mentorship because some people just shouldn't be mentors. Yes. And this is why it was interesting when I started doing some of the research on this, I think it's as high as 70%. Most mentorship occurs informally for that same, that same complaint. Right. And so this is where, so I'm going to go back to something you said before, because I believe this to my core, everybody has something to contribute.

So you don't have to have a big title, big resume, it's like what I talked about in the book, you could be an encouragement mentor. So you're somebody that's been really blessed with, I mean, you just welcome people to come as they are, but the other gift you have is that you are able to see potential in them and communicate that potential. And it's actually called the Pygmalion effect where people rise to the level of expectation. Sometimes, you know, you're a resiliency mentor and you don't have to say a word. You are that person that's gone through a tough time. And John, I know you've been on this planet long enough. There are people that have been through, everybody has. If you get a backstory, everybody's got a story.

There are some people that carry the red wagon around and they're still mad at their parents, a sibling, former boss. And, and there are some hard things. I mean, I probably like you work at some, you know, volunteer at some nonprofits. However, you know, the people you admire, they come out better, not bitter. So simply by you modeling that life, you can be that. Somebody says, I want to be that person. You don't need big resumes. And so that's, I think the mindset that we have to have out there. And we've got the time for it too, because that's the other kind of excuse you'll get. I don't have time to mentor. So, so the difference between like formal mentorship, structured programs assigned and kind of mentorship in moments, right?

Yeah. Is there a structure to apply for those people who might think they want to be mentors or could be mentors or in the moment mentors? Is there a framework or a structure that they can use to provide mentorship in so that they're, they're thinking about what, you know, sometimes you said you don't even have to say a word and you might not even know that you're a mentor for some people because of the example that you share, which is great, right? But when somebody kind of proactively thinks of, I want to, I want to help this person. I want to coach that. I want to mentor this person. Is there a framework to, to make sure they're quote unquote doing it right? And I know there's a very broad definition of doing it right, but you know, to make an impact, I guess.

Well, two things. I think, first of all, if you looked at, if you look at structure, this is going to sound very simple. How do you find a mentee? You pay attention. Paying attention. You know, I think Daniel Goldman, um, and he even wrote a book on, he said, focus has become a very flabby muscle and we live in a very overscheduled society. So we're not paying attention anymore. Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jbarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2.

If you've already gone through my training before, you can also sign up for my newsletter on jbarrows.com where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there, some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do. So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review or follow me on the newsletter, it would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. So let's take it to paying attention. Let's say you're in a meeting. It could be Zoom call in person and you see a colleague get shut down and it could be by that high driver in the meeting, somebody that's clueless or a jerk.

I don't know which category they fall into, right? Well, that person shuts down right there is an opportunity to mentor and you pull that person aside and say, Hey, that was kind of tough in there. Wasn't it? Want to have a conversation about it. So then, you know, I don't want people to think they have to be a professional coach, but literally just have two or three questions. Well, how'd you feel? What was the reason you got locked up? Well, let's talk about what do you think would have been a better response? And so a lot of it's paying attention and it can be sharing your own experience with the caveat, do not make your own experience. The whole story, you know, like, have you ever gone and you say, you said, Oh, I went on vacation in California.

Oh, we went on vacation and the conversation's done. I think that's the self-awareness. You share the story, but you share it with the right intent. And that's where I'm always examining what's the motive of my heart, because if my motive is impure, then I'm maybe giving feedback to do it. Oh, make myself look important. I'm doing feedback to do a gotcha. So I think you've got to really be, what's my intention behind this? But paying attention. Yeah. I know it sounds so simple, but we're not paying attention to, ooh. No, definitely not. Yeah. Well, and I think you bring up an interesting point with the, like the stories, right? The relatable stories. It's like, oh, and, and there's, there's a difference, I think, between being a one-upper is like, oh, you know, my, right?

Like, here's my better story versus a relatable, like, hey, I'm doing it to relate. And I, you know, early with my daughter, she actually called me out, me and my wife out on this when she was like seven or eight years old, you know, because every time she would share a problem or, you know, something she was dealing with, my wife and I would be like, oh, you know what, well, you know, we did that, you know, we've been through that too. Or, you know, here's a story of when I was a kid or when, you know, what just happened to me and, and all good intentions, like to try to relate to her, to show her that there's a, you know, whatever. But she really, she came to us one time and she was just like, you know, every time I come to you guys, like, you just keep making it about you.

And it was like, we were like, holy shit. Like, wow. Okay. Like that wasn't the intent, but I could see how she took it that way. Like I, she's coming to us with a problem. And I think that's also, at least for me, like kind of, I know males have a very fixed, fixed mindset, like in the sense that I got to fix this. Like you come to me with a problem and I'm not listening. I'm just, I'm like, everything in my brain is trying to fix whatever that problem is. Right. And, you know, obviously a lot of times people just need to be heard. So how do you, how do you balance the relatability of a story to kind of put it in context versus making it about you? And I know intent matters, but I have all the intent in the world.

I'm not making it about me with my daughter, but it, but she still felt it was, it made it. I was making it about me, not her. Hmm. Well, a couple of things come to mind. I don't, they're quite the answer, but two things that go back to self-awareness. I'm an over-contributor. And John, think about our business. What do we get hired for? Talking. And advice, right? Yeah. And so I have to have the awareness is of when I'm actually doing it because I want to help people. But one night my husband, my mentor, Jim, we'd had a dinner, you know, dinner party and you know, we're cleaning up and he, and he said, can I give you some feedback? And I was like, Oh, is this, you know? And I was like, yeah, he goes clean.

When people share a problem, it doesn't mean that you have to jump in and offer advice. So if you, that's what a mentor can do, they can provide that blind, that blind spot. So sometimes what I have to do and still train myself after all these years is just put a number to it, ask three questions before advice, or you simply ask, is this a, you want feedback or do you want me to listen? That's, it can be just, that's what we do around here. And you can do that also with a mentor. Do you want some feedback or do you just want me to listen? And people say, I just want you to listen. I want you to be with me. That's fine. I've actually learned to do that with my wife, you know, I'm a fixer. So every single time she comes to me with a problem, I'm like, okay, how can we fix this?

How, you know, whatever it is. And I've learned now we get to, when she comes to me, I go, okay, do you want me to listen? Or you want my advice or do you want me to listen? Right. And, and she'd love, you know, a lot, most of the time she's like, I just want you to listen. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm shutting up right now. I'm just going to listen. You feel free to jump on me all you want. And if you want my advice, just let me know. Right. Because otherwise without that, I immediately jump into advice. I immediately jump into fixing. And that's not what people need. They need to be heard, like you said before. One of the things you mentioned is that an empathy or a coaching culture or a mentor culture drives revenue.

That's bold, right? Because it's, it's, it's a soft, there's a soft connection to it, obviously. How do you, how do you see mentorship driving real revenue, real change within organizations? Because I think a lot of people could think of it as, you know, a soft thing, like, you know, soft skills. Great. I don't, I can't tie that to an ROI. So how do you tie mentorship to an ROI and how, and what are some examples you've seen? So this is what I'd advise to your listening audience, get on the internet, do the search on return on investment, right? And there's a whole bunch of stats there. Like, for example, with millennials that have a mentor, they're twice as likely to stay at an organization for five years or longer.

Mentorship cultures, and maybe even if they have a program, they actually make 2x times the profit, okay? But let's address the elephant in the room here. This is where the profit and loss statement at the companies are inaccurate. Because they, you know, they've got revenue coming in, cost of goods, you know, expenses, all of that. What is always hard to measure is that soft side. And so how do you measure that because a person has a best friend at work, because they've got a mentor? Increased productivity, happiness. Well, we don't sit there and go, you know what? Our retention rate is because everybody has a best friend at work, and therefore we've just added 800,000 to our bottom line. We don't have a place on the P&L statement for the impact of mentorship.

And I remember a CEO, he's now retired, and I think the company is now an $800 million company, but I'm pretty sure the company at that point was about $400 million. John, they used to run two meetings a year, and you know how expensive national sales meetings are. And so his background was finance. And so I went up to Kent and I said, hey, Kent, these meetings cost a lot of money. I'm curious that you're still having two a year. And he looked at me and he smiled and he said, Colleen, look at the teamwork, the collaboration. If I prevent three people from turning over at the company, I've just paid for this meeting. So he was a guy that was good with the hard numbers, but he also knew how to measure the soft numbers.

So I think a lot of times with soft skills, you simply have to get comfortable without any big study and going, this works. I mean, take a look at EQ. How many people want to work with people that can't manage conflict? They're a jerk. You know, so just do that math, right? And so I think sometimes the studies are great, and I also don't think we need them. Yeah. All right, let's finish on this one. What, give us an example of a mentor of yours who made a meaningful impact without you even knowing it. You know what I mean? And again, not like a formal mentor, but like at a stage in your career where somebody was there for you that really changed or changed your perspective or changed the trajectory of your career.

And how did that unfold? You know, I'm going to go way back to high school. Cool. And when I was in high school, we had a teacher show up, two teachers, Jan and Dick Gruber. He's the football coach, and Jan was going to teach Spanish, and then she decides in this little farming community, she's going to start a dance team, a drill team. Cool. Okay, this is a town of 900, right? Half of us didn't know our left foot from our right foot, but Jan was determined. Now, I'm going someplace with this story. Hang on, people. So here's what Jan did. She made us an award-winning drill team. Now, think about how this affected my life. First of all, I had to memorize routines. You had to learn teamwork here.

We became this award-winning drill team. We were competing. When we went to our first competition, we competed against schools four times our size, and we won. So right there is the thinking. You don't have to be big to win. I think that's why I joined a startup. Then she knew we needed to make money to go to these competitions. So we started hosting these competitions, John, and we would teach the other participants and drill teams from schools. We learned how to teach. I learned I had a talent for teaching and like to teach. That seed was planted way back in high school and then just continued. I did not know that teacher was setting me up for a profession of teaching, coaching, training, and frankly, performing.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's amazing. That's why teachers, right? Oh my gosh, they should get paid millions. They should. And it's such a, I mean, you think of people's interests in topics and careers and, you know, it almost always comes back to that. Well, that one teacher, you know, chemistry, you know, lit me up about got my interest in now, you know, and it's just, there's not enough credit given to them about the impact that they have. Good and bad, quite frankly. Yeah. You know, there's the negative side of that. I think, you know, one of the, one of my wife's teachers said to her that, you know, that in art, they said, you know, they have places for people like you when they saw her drawing.

You know what I mean? So guess what, my wife like ran away from drawing and paint and all that other stuff and was like traumatized by it. Yeah. So I think there's a good and bad, but I think that's the intention, right? And I think to your point, I think it's, it's incumbent upon those of us who have some experience, um, to, to look for mentees, not necessarily wait to be asked to be a mentor. Yeah. Um, so any final things about the book, like that, that, uh, you want to highlight sort of for people to kind of give them a little bit of a taste of what's going, what, what the book is all about and how they can use it. Sure. So the way we set up the book, John, is that, you know, the front part was why mentorship is more important than ever.

So what, what's causing the urgency, right? And then we, um, share our own mentorship stories and then we collected 25 stories and I purposely didn't collect all of them from sales. There's, there's obviously some from the industry, but we have stories from healthcare, military, and I think all of those will either inspire you to go, Oh, I get it. I could be that kind of mentor. And then the last part of the book, we really wrapped up with kind of taking care of the obstacles. Like I don't have enough time. I don't have enough talent. And how do I make it all happen here? And the challenge I left with everybody was, you know, let's be the next greatest generation. So Tom Brokaw wrote the book, right?

The greatest generation, these are the people that lived through the depression, came home from world war two. And what's interesting, they, they didn't come home to a lot of fanfare. They didn't get on Instagram, TikTok saying we saved the world. Right. And I believe right now it is our duty and responsibility, just like they felt like it was their duty and responsibility to save the world. So, you know, our duty and responsibility is to step up and, you know, you see a breakdown in community. You know, sometimes, you know, sometimes kids don't have parents like you, John. And so, gosh, maybe there's a kid at school that you could go to school and say, hey, is there a kid? Maybe the parents are struggling.

There isn't a parent. Invite them to dinner. You see it in business, the pace of change technology. You can be the brave leader that says, no, no, no. We're not doing that in this meeting. We're all going to get together and pay attention. That's why we're meeting. So put away your phones. We'll pop up the computers if we need them. So I think that's the generation that says, you know, we're going to be the generation that nobody feels like they have to go it alone. Because that's what's interesting in this world where we're more connected. We're seeing people are disconnected. So it's going to take brave leadership and mentorship to change some of those dynamics. Yeah, it's funny. I keep saying that with as much change as there is right now, you know, I'm a Gen Xer.

I just turned 50. And, you know, I think the Gen X generation is the one that is best suited for right now because we were the latchkey kids. We were the unstructured, go figure it out, had to adapt no matter what. And so those were ingrained in us as kids to just figure it out. I mean, I got the shirt now. It says figure it out. I used to wear a make it happen shirt because it's like, all right, let's make this happen. Now I think we're in the world of like, we got to figure this out. And I think we got to help other people figure it out because it is the pace of change is mind numbing right now. It is. And it's frightening. It's frightening. I mean, we've seen it before, thankfully, with the Internet, with all these different things.

But I don't think we've seen the pace of change like where any of us have seen the pace of change like what we're seeing right now. Yeah. And the research is supporting that. I know Dr. Nadia, I think, has some research that companies are having to reinvent every 12 to 18 months. One of the things I read recently, I mean, we both know it, but I guess the way it was presented was you learn a skill and it used to last you about five years. And you'd see that in sales training, right? Like, OK, this method would work or statement or what have you. It doesn't. I mean, and so it's going to be interesting for the leaders of the future. I also think we're going to have to teach people not only how to learn, but how to adapt.

But I think the learning is really going to be you got to get rid of group sales meetings where you got people phoning it in. You know, you got the top producer that's like, OK, this meeting's for you people, right? Well, you know what? No, this people, this is for all of us. And so if you're hitting quota, you're going to help somebody else hit quota, you know, with either your knowledge or help. Love it. Awesome, Colleen. I love the conversation. I'm sure there's plenty more to talk about. Yeah, so where can people find out more about what you're working on, the book and everything else? You know, probably the best place is the book. Obviously, Amazon, Be the Mentor, Who Mattered. And then our website is salesleadershipdevelopment.com.

And so we've got lots of free resources there for people and they can check us out further. And then obviously on LinkedIn, too. Of course. Awesome. Well, Colleen, thanks so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. And everybody, hopefully enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the MLDs podcast, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile, you know you had a good day. And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much, and I will see you on the other side.