Elizabeth Andrew: Overcoming the Generational Divide in Your Career

Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And this was a fun conversation and I think a little timely here with Elizabeth Andrew. We talked a lot about reinventing yourself. Elizabeth has a very interesting career. She actually started on Wall Street and then took 17 years off to raise her family and then got back into tech at a slightly older age than most of us. And so we talk a lot about the generational divides and what's going on in the industry right now and also kind of the mental health approach here to losing your job or getting back into the workforce or trying to reinvent yourself.

And so, like I said, I think this is a very timely conversation because I have a feeling a lot of people out there right now are feeling stuck and might want to reinvent themselves to get to that next stage in their career. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. What's happening, Make It Happen family? Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes. Vidyard makes it easy for people to use videos anywhere. No matter whether you're sending videos in email or on social media, posting them somewhere or sending them in a DM, Vidyard has got you covered.

Our friends at Chili Piper are so much fun to be around. They make it easy for people to get on your calendar. And every sales rep has got to have this function locked in. It's one of the most important things we can do as a seller. How can I get you on my calendar easily? Chili Piper can make that happen for you. Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. Elizabeth, Andrew, how are you today? Welcome to the podcast. I am doing great, John. So great to be here. Yeah, it's funny. I saw that post that you did and we started going back and forth a little bit. And I was like, this actually could be a pretty cool conversation, I think, if we just got it on the podcast.

So thanks for putting stuff out there. Yeah. And thank you so much for reaching out. I know, you know, I had an opportunity. I saw you in your Make It Happen shirt at the, I think it was the sales enablement soiree. The fall was my first time there. And I said, I want to meet John. I've obviously followed you for a long time. I appreciate that. And I think that's, you know, what really struck me, and I see you talk a lot about too, is the journey that you've been on, right? Because you've taken a rather unconventional route to where you are right now. So with the context of people having to get through tough times and reinvent themselves in some ways, because I think we're in a position right now where a lot of people are going through tough times and a lot of people have to reinvent themselves in some ways, give the audience a little bit of a background here of where you're coming from, and then we'll kind of take it from there if that's cool.

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. And I get people asking me about that a lot. So I have a very unusual background for technology sales. I'm from the Bay Area, from the San Francisco Bay Area. In fact, my father grew up at the end of Union Street, watched the Golden Gate Bridge being built. No way. That's cool. Many generations, Californian. And after college, I was out here. I started out in the investment industry. I was working in the mutual fund space. I was at Franklin Templeton Funds down the peninsula. I ran a call center. I moved into corporate training and development. And that's when I realized I could get into sales and make a lot more money. And at the time, banks were just able to break into selling investment products.

And so Wells Fargo Asset Management wanted to build their very first mutual fund company. And they hired me to come build an inside sales team. And so that was sort of my entry level. I, you know, I had, it was very much of a startup. There were four of us. So we took it from zero to over a billion dollars in assets for Wells Fargo. So I hired, trained, and managed 15 inside salespeople. And then the last region we went into was the Northeast, because that's the investment capital of the world. And they asked me to go out there and open up that region. And so I did. I moved out in January to Boston, which is where I know you are, and sight unseen. And, you know, it was a long time ago. My family said, go for two years, have a great time, don't fall in love.

And I ended up, I ended up literally, you know, working as a mutual fund wholesaler back when carrying a bag was carrying a bag. I was calling on Merrill Lynch and Smith Barney and Morgan Stanley and all of the big investment houses working out of my house and my car. And I took it from zero to 70 million in sales. And it was a really, really interesting time. As I'm sure you can imagine, the meetings that I was in, particularly in the investment industry in the Northeast, I would be giving a presentation at one of the offices in downtown Boston with 500 stockbrokers. And I would be the only woman in the room. There were, you know, all white men that looked like my dad. And, you know, it was a really, really great experience.

Unfortunately, I did not heed my parents' advice. I ended up getting married and married in New York, Italian, moved down to Manhattan, and then ended up taking 17 years off as a stay-at-home mom. And during that time, I did a... Oh, yeah. You might let me pause there for a second. I have a bunch of questions, but that one is really interesting to me because my mom did the same thing. So my sister's nine years older than me. And my mom was a really high-level executive at Wang Laboratories back in the day, which, you know, for most people who don't know, Wang Laboratories is like Salesforce today. You know, I was like hot. Like, if you work there, you were... And when I was born, I was a happy surprise.

I wasn't planned. They always wanted a second child, but they never planned it. And so nine years later, I come out. And my mom wanted me to have a very similar experience that my sister had. Because when my sister was born, she was a stay-at-home mom. And so she stayed at home. She quit her job and she stayed at home, but she became a consultant. So she kind of worked half and half. So for you, with being so successful in what you did and then falling in love and moving to New York and taking that time off, could you just share with me like that decision and and how you came to it and was it with, was it collaborative with you and your husband? Was it a conscious choice? You said, I don't care about anything.

My priorities are totally different now with my family. Could you just walk with that? I'm really curious of, because that is a major for women specifically, right? Who are successful and driven and then they have, you know, children and they have to make that choice. And I'm just, if you'd just unpack that a little bit for me, I'd appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, I have a very similar, I have two brothers that are eight and 10 years older than I am. So I know exactly where you're coming from with your family. And my mom was home with us as well. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I think one of the things and you, you and I have talked about this previously is, you know, I'm a little long in the tooth and, you know, in, in, in those days it was a little bit more structured.

You know, you went to college, you got a job. Most of my friends were having families, you know, I knew in my heart. That that's, that I wanted kids. As soon as I had found my husband, it was a joint decision. I wanted to be home with the kids. I mean, there were no regrets. I, it was interesting though, because I did, I ended up raising my kids for 17 years in Greenwich, Connecticut and Riverside, Connecticut. And, you know, it's a suburb of Manhattan. So I did a ton of nonprofit work in those 17 years. Many of the things I did was harder than anything I've done professionally. And it wasn't until I took all of that off of my resume that anybody would hire me. You know, there's all those data.

There's data points behind you have two equal candidates for a job and one had exact same resume and one has PTA coordinator on their resume. They're 60% less likely to get the job. Wait, PTA is what, what's PTA stand for? Teacher, you know, the bake sale committee, the school, you know, the school committee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Oh, wow. 60% less. Yeah. I do think it's changing. I think we're seeing a lot more acceptance to people taking career breaks than we did back then, but yeah. So, so for you, so you did, you, you still, you were still involved, like from a, I don't say work standpoint, but there was, there was, it wasn't a hundred percent kids all the time. It was kids. And then, you know, you, you did some nonprofit work and worked, you know, got really involved in other organizations, right?

I did, but it was all volunteer. I mean, it was all, it was my priority was the kids, you know, but when they were in school, I'm just not one of those people, you know, I, I took one year off. I was like, I'm just going to play some tennis. And I realized I'm okay, but I'm never getting any better and it just bored me. Like I need to, you know, I need to be doing something productive. So. Yeah. I'm the same way. Like I, I, I tell, we, we could take, I could take a two week vacation, but anything over that, I get bored out of my mind. It's like one week is not enough because I don't get to relax as much as I want to. Two weeks is perfect. Three weeks. I'm like, after like day 20, I'm like, I have to do something.

I have to get to work. I have to do something. So, um, so, so after 17 years, um, what made you decide, uh, to, to get back into the fold and then what made you decide to take a different track because you didn't go back into finance? Yeah. Well, I mean, for, for starters, you know, I've also been through a lot of down markets, um, you know, multiple, um, there was a huge market crash when I got out of college, when I was trying to get into the investment industry, there was another, uh, uh, another one kind of, um, in the middle of my, you know, my wholesaling career, you know, I've been through this a few times. And, and of course I was out in the Northeast during that 07, 08 period of time.

Right. And so, you know, it was, it was really a mess out there. It was a shit show. Candidly, I mean, that was back with, you know, and, and it was really interesting because people don't really understand Greenwich, Connecticut. It's big. It's a cross section in New York. I mean, they're housing projects, but there's extreme wealth and there's 75,000 people or more. Um, but it was right in the heart of it all, you know, I mean, made offs, everything was going down right there. And, uh, so it was a, you know, it was a really interesting time. And, and my ex-husband was, um, in, you know, Bear Stearns and, um, you know, it was kind of a challenging time for us. Um, that wasn't really what ended my marriage, but that's a whole nother, uh, conversation, which is, is not for this, but, um, you know, so in, in 2011, we decided to move back out here.

Um, I had been on the East coast for 20 years. The whole family came out here. My husband and I were sort of thinking this would be a good way to boot, you know, kickstart the marriage. Um, my oldest was starting high school, so it just was a good transition time. And so, you know, I feel like my kids are getting older. It's time to get back to work. And I did. And that's when I found, you know, I, even though I was from the Bay area, uh, I'd been in the investment industry. I hadn't lived out here for 20 years. I had no connections anymore, except for some childhood friends, you know? And so, um, I was starting from the ground up, uh, and I found that I was completely unemployable. I mean, I remember going, I finally got a, um, one recruiter to meet me for coffee and I know he just did it like out of, you know, kindness and like asking him about a job at a tech company and he laughed at me.

And, uh, I ended up finding my first job, um, at Putnam Investments working for the West Region Director of Sales. Uh, it was really kind of sales enablement for their wholesaling team, which is perfect with my experience. And I found the job on Craigslist. Wow. You can believe that. Yeah. So I, yeah. So I did that for, you do, you absolutely do. And, you know, I, um, and I think that's one of the things I actually, having gone through it a lot, I like down markets. I mean, I don't like what happens to everybody and, but, um, I think it really, everybody looks good when, you know, all boats are rising. It's when, you know, I think really the talent can come through when, when you've got to hustle a little bit more.

When it's tough. Yeah. I mean, and we're there right now. Right. And I think there's, there's a huge shakeup going on right now that, you know, I, I use this as an example, you know, Mark Benioff recently, um, you know, he posted, obviously he laid off, you know, a good portion, like 10,000, 15,000 people, whatever. And, you know, part of me is like, Mark, you know, you got, I got a lot of greedy. The fact that you didn't see long-term on this one, I'm a little disappointed. That said, he posted something that, um, that there are something leaked about how the, uh, younger employees or the work at home people were just not as productive as people in the office. And there was a huge uproar of like, oh, how dare he and all this other stuff.

And I was kind of like, you know, look, I'm not going to give him a pass for overhiring because that's his fault. But do you think that him mentioning the fact that, that work from home or the younger team is not being as productive? Do you think that was his opinion? Cause it wasn't like, he tracks every single thing that you do. Right. So I guarantee you, there is a button that he pushes that says how much more productive as my, you know, at home team versus this. And he knows the answer to that. And so if you're the one bitching and moaning here about, oh, how dare he call us out? I almost guarantee you were the one who was less productive. And going back to the, the, the tough times really shine people who, who can grind through it.

There's a certain point of knowing oneself and being self-reflective and knowing, you know, do you have grit and, and, and I can do this. But then there's, I think there's this, this big portion of people who are not, um, they don't really know themselves well enough to know if they have the grit. So how do you, in tough times like this, how do you kind of take that step back and do a kind of an assessment here of, of do I, am I really, you know, where I should be? Like how hard, you know, that type of thing. Cause I think a lot of people are kind of getting through a crisis right now where they might have gotten fired thinking they were actually pretty good at their job because their boss never gave them really any direct feedback or any of that stuff.

And now there's, they're, they're, they're looking at themselves saying, wait a minute, do I have really what it takes to be successful here? So how do you do that self-inventory, especially going through it a couple of times for you? Yeah. So that is a great question. And, you know, I think one of the things that you just said that is a big part of it is that my boss didn't give me feedback. Right. And I think it's like, I feel really badly because I have, I have three adult kids. I've got a 26 year old, a 24 year old, and then a senior college. And, you know, my 26 year old is an SDR and it's really fun to see like the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, you know, and all of that. But it's like, you know, he's the same age as some of my colleagues, but I feel really, really badly.

He's actually, he's an SDR for pre-quent and he goes into the office three days a week and that's making a big difference for him. Like I, you know, I've led some remote teams over the last couple of years. And if you're in your first job out of school, I mean, I had one employee, great kid, worked, I brought him from another place, but, you know, I kind of found out that he was spending every Friday afternoon surfing, like, you know, you know, and it's not their fault, you know, but they haven't been given the, the tool belt or the tools to actually do it. And I think that was one of the things, I mean, I did, I did start my career out of college at a down market and then, um, had another one.

And when I was moving out into the investment world, out into, to Boston, I was trained by the number two investment wholesaler in the country who was probably making 5 million a year. And, you know, it was in commission, you know, and I learned a playable, in those days, we called it a business plan. And I had to create and deliver a very comprehensive business plan every year to our national sales manager on exactly what I was going to do. And I had, it was blue ocean. I had all New England states, right? But I started in the state of Massachusetts, outside of Boston, working in three little towns to get kicked around a little bit and understand the area. Then I folded in every, you know, other region.

I had it all mapped out. I worked, it was in-person sales. I had four meetings a day, four days a week, one day for office stay to follow up. I was always scheduled two weeks, you know, it's those, it's in, and that's when, when things unravel like this, you know, you need to have a plan. You've got to focus on that day to day activity. And that's the difference between, you know, success and it's having that plan, doing your research. And a lot of people, it's not that they're not smart enough. They just haven't been trained to do it. Exactly. And that's, that's, I have the same fear is, look, I'm all for the stay at home. Like I couldn't be happier when, when I worked for like the, my training company, Basho, and they went belly up, right?

This was 2007 when everything hit there, got fired immediately, but then basically took over the company and I was working from home. And for me, working from home was, was great because I had been on the road for so long and, and I was so much more efficient at home because I just knew what I needed to get done. But it was because I spent years in the office. You know, I would, and, and there's just something about being around other people and learning through osmosis or hearing something, you know, even like cold calling, right? Like being in the bullpen and picking up on what you said versus what I said. And, and I fear right now that, that they're not, that that's, that's obviously not happening in, in so many ways.

And the lack of context now is frightening me. Another example here is I was, I mean, like you, when I was first in business, I went to every networking event I could go to, every networking group, B and I, I would make cold calls all day long. I would meet with people and I would do my thing, right? And so I networked my way to success in a lot of ways, like brute force effort, as far as, you know, results were concerned, but networking and shaking hands, kissing babies. So when LinkedIn came out, it was very natural for me. It was like, oh, cool. Like, okay. Now I fundamentally understand networking. So this is just putting networking on steroids, right? Whereas if you don't have a sense of how to engage with people and how to really add value in a networking relationship and you get LinkedIn, now you're just using it as a spam engine to, right?

And the same thing like chat GPT right now, for instance, I saw this 15 year old kid use chat GPT to automate responses from a customer service standpoint for what he was doing. And I'm like, this kid doesn't even know what customer success is. So the computer can do it and probably give a better answer, but how can you coach the computer to do it if you have no context of what it really means? Right. So how do we solve this, this challenge that we're in? Cause I don't think it's going to get any easier. No, I agree. And, and by the way, I, I'm the same way. Like I've, I've been a networker. I'm not afraid, you know, to walk into a Merrill Lynch office is California girl, you know, like, you know, you have to be able to do that.

And when I, so I spent a year, I'll answer your question in a minute, but when I spent a year at Putnam Investments, just felt like there's no fun to be had in financial services anymore. And so much going on in the Bay area and tech, like as long as I'm reinventing myself, why not try tech? I mean, I, you know, I don't want to do that. And I'd have to sit for my licenses, everything again, and it's all on the East coast. And so I did, and I really, you know, I started, and by the way, to your point, like I actually did work out of my house in my car cause I was in field sales. So I had that discipline anyway, but, um, you know, I just started networking. I started becoming a student of my profession.

I started following, even though I knew nothing about technology. I mean, I was, I had a day planner, you know, when everybody had their calendar on their phone, you know, and I, um, I remember seeing, reading tech crotch and they were having a meetup in the Presidio and, you know, it was 20 bucks and I'm like, well, I'm just going to go. And I remember walking in there and, you know, I didn't know a soul and walking around. And I met this CEO who had just moved, um, to the U S from India, um, in line for a food truck. And we got talking and, you know, I, we kept in touch and it, you know, he, I never worked for him or anything else, but when I was at HelloSign a few years later, he ended up buying our API from me and, you know, it's like you, you network and you build, uh, you know, that and, and it is missing.

I mean, it's, um, I think that's scary. And I, you know, I actually just, my most recent role was with an AI company and, you know, it's, it's all about the algorithms, right? Like, you know, the, the algorithm is unbiased. I had gone to a talk and some just goes, is AI biased or sexist, you know? And it's like the algorithms aren't, it's the data sets. And so if you've got somebody who's doesn't know what customer success is training AI, I don't know how that works. I don't either. I mean, you could tell chat GPT, Hey, answer as if you were a customer service person, but you know, that that's what my, I think there's, and what I saw two to three, like about a month ago now with chat GPT, I, I was, I've always kind of joked around.

I think we're living in the matrix and Skynet's here and all that other stuff. But a year, a month ago, when I saw the capabilities of chat GPT, my spidey senses went up more than they usually do because I'm watching now. Anybody can code, anybody can just tell the machine to do something and it writes software for it. Anybody can write really well scripted emails or pro or blog posts or whatever it is. And I'm now wondering like, and let's macro this out. Are we really on a track towards, you know, universal basic income type stuff because of the amount of jobs that'll be displaced because of the lack of true understanding. And, you know, one argument is, well, it's going to free humans up to do the creative stuff.

Okay. That that's one argument, but how much creative stuff is there for that many people out there for the amount? So, so how do we bridge this gap? Because I was freaking out back in 2017 when I saw this email that was written by artificial intelligence better than I could ever read. And I sat down with Gary Vaynerchuk and I asked him, I'm like, Gary, like, we're screwed. Like, where does that leave us? And his response was, don't try to fight the technology. You're not going to beat it. Leverage it. Be the last mile. So let the technology do all the work. And then right before that email or right before that call or right before that whatever, humanize it. Right. So, but where does that leave a vast majority of people who are going through the motions?

I mean, are we really looking at like a mass unemployment here moving forward from your perspective, based on the experience you've seen and where we're going? I mean, you know, up until this came out, I didn't think so. I mean, I really feel like, I mean, having spent a year in AI, like it's, it, it's, it augments human work. It doesn't replace human work. Right. But I, this is, I'm with you on this one. I don't know. I wish I had the answer. And that's why I'm begging people to at least pay attention to it. At least start using it. Right. To, because if you at least know it, then you can talk to it and, and you can guide it if you will. But if you have no context, this is why I do believe that it's going to make the good people great and the great people irreplaceable, but the average person is going to be in a lot of trouble right now.

And so for, from your standpoint as a leader, you know, sales leader and, and what you're seeing right now from a coaching standpoint, what are you outside of tactics and in some, you know, sales techniques and stuff, what are, what are you leaning in on, um, to help sales reps who care or, you know, to, you know, younger professionals who care, who give a shit, where do you think they should be? What are the, what should they be learning? What should they be focusing on right now from your perspective? Because I think a lot of the stuff that we're, we've learned traditionally in school is going to be irrelevant here. So are you coaching on empathy on, on, give me some examples of what you think is important for a sales rep to, from a developmental standpoint right now?

Yeah. I mean, I think that's, I, I'm a big believer in empathy and I like, my favorite thing to do is to build teams and coach, you know, I like startups and hyper growth companies because I'm a mom, I'm good at wearing a lot of hats and, you know, I don't, I don't think, and I've, you know, I've worked for companies where it's been a toxic culture, isn't empathetic, you know, and I, it doesn't work at the end of the day, it doesn't work. And, you know, I, I really, I doubled down on that. And I, you know, I think we are in a very, very interesting place. I, you know, with, and again, like having my son and seeing these kids, it's, you know, there's a lot, there will continue to be a lot of opportunities.

I believe in tech. I absolutely do. It's the people who aren't in tech, you know, that, that have jobs that are being replaced and, you know, and, um, I, I think I shared with you, I'm writing a book. I have a publisher. I haven't, I've got a lot to do. It's called starting all over again, you know, and it's, uh, I think it might be kind of relevant, you know, I mean, I, I, uh, a little bit of my story and, you know, I think coming out of survival mode, you know, I've, I've done a lot of, I've finally am completely out of survival mode, but I spent about a decade in that and it's hard to really do what you want. And, um, you know, when you're trying to support a family and, and we're seeing more and more of that, I mean, as we see with homelessness and everything else.

How do you, how do you get out of survival mode? Is it just pure brute force for you? Like, you know, cause I, cause I do think that there are some people right now, like legitimately, I don't know where my, I don't know where my next meal is going to come from. I just, you know, I lost my job. I don't have healthcare in it right now. And so it is pure, I need a job and I, you know, and I try to coach, well, you know, make sure you align your values with the next business and do all this stuff. But at the end of the day, if you got to pay your bills, you got to get a job. So any advice for people who are inherently going to be in survival mode for a period of time, um, is it focus on survival at all costs or is there a way mentally that you can kind of section out, okay, survival and.

Yeah. I believe it's 150% mental. I think there's, you know, it's, it's, I mean, and for me, like, and, and I can share stories like it took me, you know, I kind of gave you the short rundown, but 2011, we moved back and, you know, I was trying to do everything I could, you know, and anything I could, I was a single mom with three kids. I knew I was going to, I was supporting them a hundred percent. You know, I was looking down three college tuitions and, you know, I, I could have been homeless if we didn't have friends and family. I mean, in, in full transferancy, you know, that, that, that helped a little bit. And, you know, I, um, I just got into this stage and I'm very mathy and sciencey, you know, I, but I got into this stage of energy and mindset and I would get up and I remember I had my middle son would drive me to Bart when I was working at a tech company and I would be commuting into the city and I'd wake up, I'd be like, Andrew, today's the first day the rest of your life and he'd be rolling his eyes like, ah, stop it already, you know, but it was like, you know, make it happen.

And, you know, it's like, you start to tell yourself this every day. And there's, there's, I went to a great talk, um, at a conference by, um, I think it's, uh, Dr. Lori Santos, who's the Yale professor who, uh, has started the most subscribed college course on the science of happiness and, you know, there's, she did all the data behind it. A lot of it's common sense, right? But the data behind getting up and, and writing down, taking five minutes, writing down three things you're grateful for. And it shows data shows that it's better. And I, I, I used that mentality to, even when I didn't believe it, you know, as I, when things were really dire to get, get myself out and, um, and it works. I think that's, that's under, um, I think it's underappreciated by that.

I've never really been a fake it till you make it type guy, you know, as far as like your profession or something like that. Like, if you don't know the answer, don't know the answer, like be honest with it, you'll figure it out. But I think when it comes to mental stuff, there's to a certain degree, you got to hack your brain in a lot of ways, like stop the negative talk. Like, oh, I suck, you know, and we're, y'all that's terrible. Right. And literally wake up in the morning and say, today's going to be the day I'm going to make this happen today. I, you know, and I just recently for me, like I've started going, I'm, I've never really been into meditation. I've never really been into it, but I'm going through shit just like everybody else.

And so these daily affirmations of 10 minutes of me sitting in the morning, you know, staring out a window and listening to positive affirmation stuff of like, Hey, you know, you're worth it. You can do this and all that other stuff. It, it really does rewire your brain and, and you can rewire it. And it's weird. Like I've heard a lot of people like Neil deGrasse and talk about how your brain is literally like a supercomputer. You can wire it how you want to. And the negative talk definitely wires you down in the negative direction. But if the positive talk, you don't want to be like, what's the line for you, I guess, against optimism and disillusion. Like for instance, like, I, like, oh, I want to play in the NBA.

I'm going to be, I'm a six foot white dude who can barely touch the rim. Like there's not a shot no matter how much I practice in my life. I'm never going to go to the NBA. Right. So what's the, what, what is the barrier for you on, on determining, like, am I delusional here or am I just really being positive and trying to break through? No, I, I, I don't subscribe into delusion. I, um, I've seen it. I've experienced it, you know, with people around me. And I, you know, I, I wouldn't even say I'm optimist. I'd say I'm a realist, but I, you know, it's like today's the day, make it happen. And I love that you were saying that, you know, there's positive affirmations because it's literally on your shirt every time I see you, um, you know, and, and, uh, but it, you know, it, it's, it's not today's the day, today I'm going to make it happen.

I'm going to become an NBA player. It's today's the day, you know, today, you know, it's baby steps. It's setting those goals and, you know, um, again, it's that business plan though. Right. Like when you're unemployed, like focus on setting up 15 interviews a week, you know, what, even if it's just with a recruiter or network, somebody that's in your network, it doesn't have to be a job interview, you know, set up to, you know, put a target for yourself one a day, get three meetings a day, you know, and just do that every day and make sure that you're getting, continuing the pipeline, right. Filling your pipeline and, uh, um, you know, and things start to click and start to connect and yeah.

So I, but I, I'm with you, like I've tried meditating and I think about what I'm going to have for lunch. I, it's never been my, I'm like, my brain goes in 15 different directions. I'm like, okay, nope, stay focused. I think I'm going to try to eventually crack through where I will have the Zen mind. Right. I'm, I'm kind of trying to force that myself, but half the time I'm doing this 10 minute meditation. I'm thinking about, okay, uh, I got to send this email to someone. So I got a meeting this afternoon. I'm like, no, John, shut up, shut up. Nope. You're just listen to the sound, listen to the sound. And John and John starts having a conversation with himself. And it's like, um, my, my, my daughter was an open water swimmer.

Um, and she had a swim coach who happened to, you know, swim at Cal Berkeley, which is like all Olympians. And, um, she used to say, you know, these young girls, which I appreciated your body believes everything you tell it. Yeah. I could, I could say, you know, for these young girls, I'm fat. Right. You know, it's like, whatever, you know, you, you believe if you do that negative talk, it's, it can be a really slow, very slow. What's up everybody. I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heap. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday.

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That URL one more time is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guest for this week. Going back to how things have evolved for us. Like you said, you know, you were one woman within 50 and at least you'd probably hopefully seen a few more in that crew. It's the same thing with mental health, right? It's like, you never, you never talked about mental health, uh, back in the eighties and nineties. Like that wasn't a thing. Like just buck up and figure it the fuck out, you know, go do some Coke and figure it out or go drink, you know what I mean? Like whatever, right? Like you're, you're being a whip, right? Now, thankfully that, uh, you know, that, that empathy is there. At least it's, it's talked out loud about at this point, um, and there's a lot more avenues, but there is the, the, the kind of the final thing I want to kind of finish with you here is, is again, going back to the line of, of tolerance for, and, and empathy and, and all the mental health and, and that type of thing versus results.

And I, they're not mutually exclusive and I know they're not, I think they actually compliment each other quite well, but I do feel like going back to the Benioff example, that there are people who are over indexing on the, oh, work-life balance and, oh, you know, I don't, you know, how dare you ask me to work past five o'clock at this point. And I'm looking at it like, how in the world could you possibly be successful if you have a nine to five mentality and, and get upset for your, you know, company asking you to work a few extra hours or saying, Hey, you got to hit these results. So where's that line? I think for you, are you seeing that line switch a little bit too far to the, to the non-results oriented aspect of what we do?

A hundred percent. And I think, unfortunately, you know, like I always have said, like, I don't want to learn any more lessons. I'm enough of a character, you know, this character building lessons, but you know, unfortunately this, the, you know, I mean, this is going to sound like a parent pontificating, right? But, um, what's going to sway it the other way is the down market. Yeah. You know, you know, as a leader, you know, you might have empathy for everybody, but you're going to have, if you have to cut 20%, you're going to cut the bottom 20%. You're going to get the people who aren't performing and, you know, and, and people can throw a fit at what Mark Benioff said. You're right. It's, it's data driven.

It's not his opinion, I'm sure, but you know, it, it's, um, it's not going to help you get a job. Right. So, you know, there, there's that, like you said, it's the toughen up buttercup kind of thing. Like, you know, when you're out of a job, you go clean houses, if you got to go clean houses, you do what you have to do, you know, and you're not going to be handed an $80,000 entry-level sales job, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's, and that's what I hope, you know, if anybody is, look, there's some things that people are getting laid off for, um, just because, and that, you know, through no fault of their own. And, and I do believe those people who know that they're good at what they do, they're like, okay, that sucks.

You know, let me go figure this out. Right. What's next. Um, but then there's a lot of woe is me out there. And I think those woe is me need to take that reflective, like look in the mirror and say, okay, yeah, maybe that did suck, but what did I do to be put myself in a position to be in that bucket? And how can I now change that? And, you know, again, going back to just being reflective here, um, are there certain questions that you ask yourself? You personally, I mean, outside of the positive affirmations, were there certain questions throughout your journey here that you, you had to have a real, real conversation with you about like, am I this? Or do I really believe, you know, that type of thing?

Were there hard questions that you had to ask yourself that you had to give yourself answers to that you didn't really want to? Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I just, I've always tried, I was very fortunate. I had a, uh, my dad, my parents were married over 60 years. My dad was my role model. I used to go into the city with him when I was in middle school, my summer vacations to his office, um, you know, and, um, you know, very, very solid guy and everybody loved him. He was kind of well-known in the Bay Area, Cal alum. Um, you know, I, I just try to go at everything with integrity and, you know, when I come unglued, it's usually when I see things that are, uh, disingenuous or not, you know, not well-run.

Um, but I just really try, I try to just focus on what I can control, right? Like it's like sales. There's two things, focus on the quality of your presentation and the number of people you talk to, you know, it's like focusing on what you, you can control. Right. And it's like, I can't control, Lord, I've tried to control CEOs. It doesn't work as a VP of sales. You know, it's like, you know, I, I do think we are in a position, you know, and I think people, you know, need to take ownership and I, you know, it, and that's what's going to be required to stand out, especially, you know, I come from enterprise sales. I've been in all of it now, but, um, you know, you have to do your homework and you have to really take ownership for your book of business.

And I think when, when it's a down market that, that shows, um, but, and I think people need to do that for their lives too, because at the end of the day, nobody's going to help you, but yourself, I mean, you, you know, you got to pull yourself out of it, but at the same time, I also think, you know, the world is changing and people are exhausted. People are tired. I mean, everybody is, and there's a little more accountability, I think for some of these companies, you know, and it's like, I, I, I've made the mistake of taking a VP of sales role at a very early stage startup and didn't dig into the fact that I was the fourth sales leader. It wasn't working, you know, it's like, you know, things like that.

And like, you know, I, um, you know, there's all these, these things that we do, we back channel and we're hiring and things like that, but like now there's a little, going to be a little more accountability, I think on companies as well to, to be empathetic. I don't think, I don't think I was going to say the tolerance for it, especially in this generation is going to be zero, you know, the tolerance for not treating people with respect, not being diverse, not being inclusive. Um, I mean, don't get me wrong, there's still plenty of people out there that don't care about that stuff and we'll get those jobs and those companies, but I think the market in general is going to reject that too. So not only the reps going to these companies and rejecting the company because of the lack of that, but also the market.

I mean, companies are getting punished right now, if from a social standpoint. Now, again, we can talk about the line of wokeism and how that's gone a little bit too far as well and everybody doesn't deserve to get canceled just because they said something stupid 20 years ago. Like we would, that's a whole different conversation, but I think it is, it is leveling out. Um, but you're, I think you're right. I think this, this correction, if you will, is maybe going to swing the pendulum back a little bit more towards the center here for those kind of fully like, Oh, I don't have to work at all. And you should just pay me for being who I am because I went to college. Right. I actually think John, like in my opinion, and I, I had done a TEDx, you know, on, on, it was called let them back in, letting people who have taken a career back, break back in.

And one of the analogies I used in that was, um, that I've had people reach out to me about is the shoe test. If you're in a conference room, look under the table. And if everybody's wearing the same shoes, it's a problem. Whether it's heels or sneakers or wingtips, it's a problem. Right. And I think, you know, you're seeing, like, I think the answer to how companies handle this is going to be having diverse teams. And, you know, I, I, I mentioned to you, like, I, I joke, I want to bring the only woman in technology to the oldest person. I mean, the only woman in investments to the oldest person in technology. Right. Um, but I think, you know, if you can set up, I've, I've run into issues where you've got some of my, the opposite of wall street, some of my closest friends in the Bay area and everywhere from India, but I've been on teams that like, I'm the only person on the leadership team.

That's not first generation India and that's not diversity. Right. And it's not diversity of culture and thought and how you treat your people. And, you know, so I think that it really helps to have a breadth of generations, you know, and actually, and everything. Last question on that. Why do you think, I think I asked this recently too, I'm curious from your perspective, why do you think we as a Western culture don't respect, um, elders or experience as much as others? Like there's this whole like a test, right? Where if you, if you ask different countries, you have, um, a child, a wife and a grandmother and you're the husband and you're in the boat and you can only save one of them here in the U S we will save the kid 95% of the time because that kid hasn't had a chance and they need chance to live other cultures.

It's we save the wife because I can have another child. Other, other, mostly Eastern cultures are, we would say the grandparents, right? Why do you think we don't value experience? Cause I see, I see so much experience in this industry, especially tech of people have been there, done that, that we could learn from, but yet you get all these kids be like, I got this, you know, let me, let me make this mistake myself. So why don't we, why don't you think culturally we, we appreciate experience and, um, yeah. Why do you think that? Yeah. I mean, I think, first of all, I think tech happens to be the extreme, you know, when the, when it was 07, 08, um, and the markets fell down and I was still living in the East coast, they started return ship programs with a lot of, I think it was Goldman Sachs or something started that.

And then moving out here, they don't have anything like that in tech. I think there's, some of them are starting to, but you know, where they help support people who've had great careers, get back in that have things to value. I think, you know, I think, um, I, I think this is also, I don't know the answer to that, but I think this is also one of those things that could potentially shift. We are the first, um, in this country, really world since World War II, right? Um, it was a, before World War II, people used to live more multi-generationally, you know, and, and we don't, I mean, we don't, we have our own family with our spouse or kids or whatnot. But, um, you know, I think with this market and a lot of people out, like there are a lot of kids that are living at home a lot longer than they used to.

And, you know, I, I've got a mother who's lives a couple of miles from me, you know, and I'm not going to live with her, but you know, it makes sense for some people now. And I think we'll continue to, as things get harder. And I think there's, I think there is a forcing function to you, to, to a certain degree. It's like, you know, you can, you make enough mistakes and then maybe just, maybe you might want to ask him what he's been there, done there before. And so that you don't make that many more mistakes. So I think you're, you're right there. There is a certain point, unfortunately, that I think all of us need to be woken up. Um, and, and a lot of times that has to be a pretty harsh wake up, right?

I, I kind of joke that I wish almost every child, kid, they should get punched in the face. I mean, literally punched in the face once in their life, just to see how you're going to react, because until you, you physically get hit like that, you don't know how you're going to react. And I, and I joke around in the sense that I'd been punched literally in the face five times in my life through fights. And the first time I vividly remember this, my initial reaction, and I was a grown ass man. My initial reaction was to cry when I got punched in the face. I was like, but then like three seconds after that feeling, I just immediately like rage hit me and I'm like, wait a minute. And I went and, you know, dumb, you know, stupid just went charging back.

But my point is, is like that fight or flight, these times that we're in right now, it's going to, you're going to figure out what type of person you are. You are going to fold under the pressure or you're going to rise to the occasion. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of us need to be forced to determine that versus evolve into it. And so hopefully just people who have gotten punched in the gut right now are taking that inventory. A hundred percent. And I'll give you a quick example of that. I remember, you know, I was involved in my kids' school. My kids were getting a little older. They were kind of all middle school age. And I was, I started doing, this was before I moved east, I started doing, I was volunteering.

And so I happened to be in the elementary school, the lower elementary school. And I knew some of the teachers because my kids had all gone through the school. They were very close friends of mine. I was chatting with one of them. We were standing outside and it was pickup for these young kids. And some of the mothers are pregnant. And I looked at my friend and I said, God, there's just a, I'd come from a parent meeting with a, you know, the eighth graders. And so there's a different look. There's just a different look. And the difference is nothing bad has happened to them yet. You know, they haven't lost their job. They don't have a parent that's sick. It's all still about the shoes and the car.

And we were all there too. I'm not judging. But like, and unfortunately it will, like nobody hits 50 unscathed. Like, no, no, no. And I'd actually be worried for you if you did, because then if you get hit in your fifties and sixties and you've never been hit before, talk about a life crisis right there. Right. Right. Absolutely. Well, we can, we just keep trying to, you know, sharing the experience as much as we can here, Elizabeth, see if we can get a few people to come on board with, with reflecting on themselves and moving forward as opposed to letting them crush them. So I really appreciate you coming on and having this conversation. Yeah. Where, where can people find out more about what you're doing?

You say you got a book, you got a Ted talk, so help people understand where they can learn more about you. Yeah. I need to do more blogging. I'm, I'm in the process of writing the book. I've got the publisher. I, I, I, I need to kind of get out of startups to get that like done. Um, I hope to have that done, you know, sooner rather than later. Um, of course, LinkedIn, Elizabeth Andrew is probably where I communicate the most. Um, and yeah. And my TEDx. And everybody, yeah, the TEDx, I was going to say, take a look at the TEDx. That's a great, that's a great one. So I'm one of these days, I'm going to try to get to do one of those TEDx's, but, uh, you need to, you need to, yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Elizabeth.

I really enjoyed the conversation and, uh, good luck with the book too. John, thank you. So, such a pleasure. Really, really great chatting with you. And, um, thank you for the invitation. I'm happy to be here. Absolutely. So I'll see you online. Um, look, everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did here and, you know, got you to reflect a little bit of on yourself and, and are you really putting everything you need into what you need to do to be successful here and might, might have to reinvent yourselves. But regardless, no matter how bad you think your day went, I always say, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad you think your day is going or how I think you went, if you make somebody smile today, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now.

So thank you all very much and I'll see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests were one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads. And I can't thank you enough to keep the momentum going. If you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it in return. I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM, and I will get right back to you. I promise. And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses.

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