Fabiana Lacerca-Allen: Crisis Management and Building Resilient Teams

There's nothing you can do about what happens around you, because that's life. When you least expect it, something happens. But what you can definitely do is react to it in the best way possible. And for that, you need practice, you need intuition, you need emotional intelligence. You need to be comfortable with whatever decision you make, you're going to be okay. Not because the result's going to be good, it's because you're going to be okay because you're relying on yourself. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us.

Now, today's conversation is with Fabiana Lacerca-Allen, who has more than 30 years of experience in developing and implementing global compliance programs within Fortune 100 companies. She has extensive experience leading global teams in negotiating, implementing, and executing on corporate integrity agreements, deferred prosecution agreements, and consent decrees. She frequently speaks at compliance leadership and risk management, and her new book is Crisis Capable, Building Your Capacity to Survive and Succeed in Every Environment, which is what we talked about because you can look around right now and you can find crisis pretty much wherever you go. I mean, shoot, right now as we speak, LA is on fire.

And so, how do you deal with crisis? But we obviously took a business approach to this, but her background is absolutely phenomenal, you know, really interesting too. She grew up in Argentina in a dictatorship and, you know, had people kidnapped and everything else in between. So, her view of crisis is a little different than those of us here who sit behind our desk making cold calls every day, which I think is a really interesting perspective to bring to the conversation. But it starts off with her dad and the quote that her dad had and the values that he instilled with her, which I'm going to not say here and let you listen to, but really dictate a lot of her approach. But then we got into trusting your gut versus the data.

And she is a very gut-oriented, instinct person and how you actually marry that with data and insights so you can make better decisions. And then we talked about planning for a crisis. How do you plan for something you don't know is even going to happen? And then marrying your objectives with your values. How do you approach a crisis when it happens? And I talked a little bit about my failures in early 2023 as a leader and how I think I could have done a lot better when we faced a crisis as a business. And then some mistakes you can make, which I've made plenty. And so needless to say, you know, this is a really cool conversation. Again, hopefully it gives you some perspective here on craziness and all the things that really are important and so many other things that aren't.

And just take a breath every once in a while. Calm down because it's probably going to be all right if you just take a breath. So hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Fabiana, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. How are you today? John, good morning. How are you? I'm doing very well. I'm doing very well. It's a little bit cold here in Boston, but I'm optimistic about the year to come, so I can't complain. Better than California these days. Yeah, California is in rough shape right now. I have a few friends whose houses have already been burned down and it's a scary scene out there. I always say it's like, you know, Boston, everybody tells about all your weather.

It's gross and all that stuff. But out west, you deal with fires, drought, and earthquakes, and there's nothing you can do about those. Whereas down south, it's floods, hurricanes, and you can't do anything about them either. We get a few inches of snow. We can dig out of snow. I'm okay with that. Yeah, and great seafood to make up for it. So, yeah. All together, you're good. Plus, you have one of those friendship bracelets, so you are definitely doing good. Well, this is my daughter. So, this is one of my daughter. She's 14 now, so she's a lot older. But when she was about six years old and I was traveling so much, she made me this little bracelet. And I used to, everywhere, every time I traveled, I'd have it on my wrist to make sure I keep her top of mind.

But, yeah, now I keep it on my microphone since I don't travel nearly as much as I do, thankfully. Yes. So, I actually didn't see where you actually based out of. Right now, I mean, Hayward, outside of San Francisco, East Bay. Okay. Yep. Okay, so you're not going to be right. Beautiful day, beautiful weather. Yeah, I was going to say. San Francisco is okay right now. It's L.A. that's on fire. So far, so good. I mean, we had several of those scares. Yeah. Earthquakes, tsunamis, definitely crazy weather. Yeah. Well, that's a good segue to what we're going to talk about today, which is crisis management. Because the world is filled with crisis right now, and I think we all need a little bit of sanity to try to deal with it, mentally, if nothing else.

But, as we do on all these podcasts here, before we get started, Fabiana, tell us a little bit about your origin story, because you have a very interesting one growing up in Argentina and such. So, talk to us a little bit about where you're coming from, your parents, and how that whole influenced and how it got you to where you are today. So, I grew up in beautiful Argentina, truly the land of amazing people, great mountains, you know, great lakes, all kinds of weather. From the Andes to the Mar del Plata, you have everything that you can think of, and north to south as well, ending with Antarctica. So, beautiful land, great food, great people that have suffered a lot. So, I grew up in Argentina during the dictatorship.

Argentina had one of the most difficult military dictatorships, and especially bad. You know, there's Perón, there's Evita, don't cry for me, Argentina. It's a beautiful, great story, worth looking into, because you see around the world, things are cycling a certain kind of way. Great learnings from that time. So, the worst part of the dictatorship was 1976 to 1984, when we finally became a democracy. Under Prezi and Alfonsín, my father was very close friends with Alfonsín. They've been friends since high school, basically. And my father was state secretary of industry in Argentina. So, all those years leading up to that, you know, there were potential crises around the corner every day. Three attempted kidnappings, three, you know, there's a lot of unrest.

There was a lot of issues growing in a country that's going through such difficult times. And as a result of that, I learned at a very, very young age, I remember we had had an incident, which is described in the book. Sixteen armed people came to our house looking for us. When I was six, my sister was five. And that's the first time that I remember having a dream about red shadows. People are coming. And, you know, as an adult, you figure out, was it intuition? Was it that I really saw something? What was it? But notwithstanding this, after all of these, I had dreamt that my father was in a balloon and he was flying away from me. And I was desperate because he was leaving me. So, I remember waking up, crying and going to talk to him.

And I said, Daddy, I don't want you to die and I don't want to die. And I was hoping that he would tell me, Fabiana, nobody's going to die. But instead, he told me, we're all going to die. Don't worry about it. Yeah. I'm six, John. So, imagine. He goes, but, you know, there's some things worth dying for. And for everything else, you need a plan. So, I joke and I say that I started my compliance and legal career at six because for everything else, you need a plan. So, that has helped me throughout my career. And truly, personally and professionally, it makes real sense. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB Sales membership.

It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are Filling the Funnel and Driving a Close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to JBarrows.com, click on the individual membership link, and use coupon code PODCAST at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Yeah, actually, the quote, I think, is in the book, right?

We're all going to die, so don't worry about it. Worry about where you're going to live for. And that is such a – it's funny because, you know, I talk a lot about how there's two types of people in this world, right? Where life happens to versus life happens for, right? And there's the reactive versus proactive. And there's, unfortunately, so many people that life happens to, and they just react to it when it happens. Whereas the ones who have a plan, when crisis happens, it might not be the best plan, but it's a plan. And so the calmness to it, I think that's a lot of what it comes down to crisis. And we're going to peel back that layer. But I absolutely love that mentality from your dad. It's fantastic.

Absolutely, and it's helped me all my life. I had a boss. We were in a, you know, difficult situation. And he says, Fabiana, I love working with you because you stay calm through everything. And I said, well, you know, I look out the window and I think they're not shooting at me. I'm having a good day. And that became another, you know, famous phrase, but it's true. There's nothing you can do about what happens around you because that's life. When you least expect it, something happens. But what you can definitely do is react to it in the best way possible. And for that, you need practice. You need intuition. You need emotional intelligence. You need to be comfortable with whatever decision you make, you're going to be okay.

Not because the result's going to be good. It's because you're going to be okay because you're relying on yourself. Yeah, the figure it out mentality. I think that I'm a little bit worried right now, you know, and I feel like I'm like talking to like my dad every, the older I get, the more I sound like my father. But, you know, it's, there's a generation that is having a hard time figuring it out right now. You know, I, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, right? I'm 49 years old. And we were the last generation that had to figure it out. You know, we've, you know, played in the streets. Our parents weren't home. Like we blew things up. We, you know, set stuff up. Like, and, and so we had to figure it out.

But now so many kids lives are dictated to them where it's like, they go to this, this and this and this and this and this. And so when crisis happens, they don't know how to figure it out. And forget about crisis. I'm talking about normal work day to day stuff where they have to figure out how to get into a customer. They have to figure out a negotiations. They have to figure out that. And they're like, what do I do? And so how do you, let's start with that. You know, how do you build, how do you shift the mentality? Like if you, if you've been put in a box your entire life and effectively told what to do. And so you're really not adept at quote unquote, figuring it out. How can you start to move in that direction in a way that isn't terrifying for those people?

Because I mean, probably it's just like, hey, go fail a million times and you'll figure it out. Right. But most people don't want to do that. So you talk about EQ, you talk about all these things, but a lot of that stuff is inherent and it's hard to teach. So how do you teach those? It's not as hard to teach John as you think. Our kids were all born with a phone on their hand. Truly. Also with the idea that you need to be kind, you need to be sweet, don't offend other people, assume always the best. See, I've raised mine differently. Me too. And so it's okay to say, I don't want to kiss this person. I'm okay with that. It's okay to get out of an elevator. You're uncomfortable. You're uncomfortable.

It's okay to call me and say, come pick me up from this party. I'll never, I'll be there like a soldier. You don't have to worry. We can talk about it later, but trust your instincts. And you start developing that at a very young age. I used to take them to a mall and say, look at that person. Now turn around, describe them. Just having the ability to say, you know, bald, six, five, blue glasses. It's helping them be attuned with their environment, with what they're seeing. I used to tell them, well, we're driving. If you see a car twice, let me know. You know, generally there's no coincidences. And you can train your employees that way too. You know, we've done, I've done a lot of these trainings with especially sales forces that travel all over the world, especially male.

And we don't want to get into that gender. But, you know, generally speaking, I used to tell them, if you think you're that good looking, think twice. Women are not going to fall in love with you immediately. Like, look at you and lose their mind. I would be suspicious of that. Especially in Colombia, in Brazil, in these countries where high incidence of express kidnapping. And it's generally men. We had a training once that we sent a woman in a towel to knock at their doors in the hotel room. Of course, we had given them the training, if you think you're that good looking, think twice and, you know, use your critical thinking. And these women in a towel knocking at their door. Now, that immediately would call my attention.

Yeah. I would say, why in a towel? Like, how do you get outside of a room in a towel? Right. Then, why my door? You know? And 100% of the men opened the door. I'm like, really? Of course they did. I worked with a guy that was so funny. He goes, yeah, I thought something was off. But then I figured I'd never get lucky. And I'm like, you don't want that kind of luck. You truly don't. No, yeah. And it happens more than you know, John. And it's like all over the place. These people travel around the world thinking that all these women fall in love with that. Yeah. So, so with the gut though, because I, you know, there's in sales, right? There's a science and an art and there's the, there's the data, right?

There's the insights that help inform decisions. And then there's the gut. For you, when it comes to making decisions, how do you balance the data and the analysis so that you can make informed decisions versus your gut? It's just something's off. So, how do you balance those two? Because sometimes your gut's wrong. Like, let's, let's not pretend like our gut, I've, my gut has, has been right way more often than wrong, right? When I feel there's just something not right about this, it ends up working, something ends up happening. But there are some times where I'm like, nope, that was a, you know, whatever. And it, it wasn't the right. Or I did a disservice to the person I was working with. And these aren't all crisis scenarios.

You know, these are just, right? My gut, my intuition is so good. It saved my life many times. So I trust it. Sometimes, just enough to say, this requires a little bit more preparation. This requires a little bit more thought. And so it served me. Just like that, it served me. Your intuition is the adrenaline going in your body and your mind keeping up. So if something were to develop, and there's a lot of studies, like really, the army, there's so many organizations looking at that. How to people with the two, same training, same capabilities, same everything. One of them will say something like, well, the silence was too eerie. The cat was weird. That means they're attuned with their surroundings.

And that means that you have adrenaline going. And so you can react within three seconds of an attack. You have high chances of getting away. But for that, you have to be alert. You have to be ready. And if you've done it enough time, you learn to rely it. I know that I'm in danger or that I'm in an uncomfortable situation because I get a pain in the pit of my stomach. It comes on. And so sometimes it just means this meeting, somebody's lying or this meeting, something's uncomfortable, pay more attention. Other means you better get out of the X. You better move out. You're in danger. But it always serves you because it gives you an opportunity to reassess. And I think that's the part there for me is you need more data, right?

It's like the gut might be wrong. But what it's telling you is you need more data to go back and do more insights versus, right, so that you can make a better decision. But then it's not wrong. Right. Well, true, true, true. Then it's just saying you don't have enough of what it takes, John. Take a minute. Yeah. It's funny. This came up yesterday, as a matter of fact. I had an email from somebody who's looking for a new job. And he's like, I'm at the final thing. I got a meeting tomorrow with the executive team. He's like, but just I'd love your advice because something's, I don't know what it is, but something's off. And I don't know this company and I don't know him well enough to really be like, I don't know.

But I was like, and I said to him, I said, if your gut's telling you something's off, then something's off. And all I did was I actually went into ChatGPT and I said, hey, I'm trying to help my friend get a job. You know, he's a little concerned. There's something off about this. You know, is there any negative news about this company out there on the internet and specifically related to the employees and how they treat it and all this other stuff? It was really interesting. ChatGPT pushed back. He said, well, there's actually new leadership that just came in and the new regime is changing their culture. And there's a lot of people. And again, who knows ChatGPT and if it's, you know, it was real or not.

But I said, I sent it back to him. I said, this is what you need to dig into. I go, there's been a regime change effectively. And the culture of this company is shifting. And it's really hard unless you're on the same page with that new regime to come into a situation that's disrupting that culture, especially in the position that you're going to do it. So if I'm you, I'm diving deep into that topic right now and going and really flipping the script of instead of them interviewing you, you better interview them. And he got back and he came out of that interview being like, dude, you were spot on. He's like, it's not something that I'm comfortable with. And I'm out. I was like, there you go. There's your gut.

And so sometimes it's that. Sometimes your guide tells you something's off and you still say, I'm going to go for it. And it's OK. All it is, is that. A measure of keep your eyes open. Think about it a little bit more. Gather more information. And now you're better armed to make a decision. And that doesn't mean that all the time your decisions are right. That means that you made a decision, you went with it, and then you can change course as needed. But most leadership, especially in times of crisis, John, require action. Sitting there and doing nothing generally is the most risky position to be. In security, we call it the X. You know, you're sitting on the X. You're sitting on the place where something's going to happen.

So no action is not good. Sometimes action might not be the best one, but it gives you at least the momentum to say, let me revisit. So you talk a lot about like planning, right? So planning to be able to address a crisis. But sometimes a crisis comes out of nowhere. And I'll give you an example. You know, back in 2023, you know, all my clients were in the tech and the SaaS industry, right? And I was a little ignorant. I was kind of fat, dumb, and happy just like everybody else. We were all up and to the right. The SaaS industry was going crazy. Everybody was making money. And so we all kind of had this inflated perception of how good we were, I think. And then what happened was towards the end of 2022, I kind of started to see the tea leaves, but I didn't really think that much about it.

I'm like, okay, we're in a little bit of a dip here. And then the beginning of 2023 hit, and it was like a punch in the mouth because I all of a sudden looked at my P&L and my forecast and everything. And I'm like, holy shit. I got like, I got like a month left to be able to figure this out. And so I didn't have a plan for that. But I quickly tried to put one together and give some confidence to the team. Like you said, like, let's just keep moving. Let's doing things. Like, how do you plan for an unknown crisis so that you're prepared for it? You don't plan for an unknown crisis because, as the name says it, you don't know what's coming. But you know how you react. And you know who your players are.

And you know who your inner circle is. And you know who's good for what. And generally speaking, even though crises are different in nature, the way they develop and the way people react to it, it's pretty similar. And so as long as you know what you would do and you trust that you would do that consistently and feel confident about it, and as long as you know, and that's where emotional intelligence comes, who's around you and what they're good for and what they're not, then you have a formula to at least say, let's go that way. I'm confident that staying put is not the answer. I'm confident that we're doing the right thing, at least for now. So is there kind of like a framework that you use to help people kind of think through a crisis in the moment so that they can have some sanity?

Or is it a case-by-case basis? Well, I think it's about capabilities. You know, a long time ago, I was being interviewed for an article that came out in The Guardian, and they said, how do you pick your team? I said, I'd look at them and think, would I be kidnapped with them? And I remember that, but that's true. If you have somebody around you that you know that in a difficult situation, they're going to keep calm, they're going to think strategically, they're team-oriented, they can follow orders, they can give orders, they can do what it takes, you have pretty much the right team around you. You also need to know what each one is good at, starting with yourself. I cannot tell you, John, how many times I've interviewed people, and they start with, they don't even know anything about me, and then they're interviewing for a position with me.

And I'm like, mistake, mistake. Go do this. Or when I ask them, what would the people that don't like you tell me about you? And they're like, oh, well, everybody likes me. And I'm like, okay, mistake. I can tell you, you know, I was having this conversation with one of my daughters, and I said, well, I know what people say about me, the people that don't like me. And she goes, oh, I do too. I said, really, what do they say? She says, mom, they say you're extra. And I'm like, I love extra. I am very extra. But I know I'm extra. I know I'm strategic. I know I'm courageous. I know I have strong work ethic. But I know I'm not detail-oriented. Yeah, me too. I mean, if I have to do it, if my life's dependent on it, I can do anything.

But I have people in my team that are the ones that will tell you, you know, like, for example, my meeting with you today, I got five emails from Lucia going, are you on it? And so these are the detail-oriented people in my team that make it so that if a crisis were to come, I know where to start, who to start with. It's funny, my mentor, Jeff Hoffman, I think he gave me one of the best compliments I think I've ever, one of the best compliments I've ever gotten, which is, he's like, you know, the way I describe you, John, to my, to people who don't know you and colleagues, I'm like, how? He's like, if I was in a foxhole, in a war, in a fight, you're the first person I'd want in that foxhole with me.

And I was like, well, why? I'm like, I'm not the best shooter. I'm not the best, you know, I'm not the most athletic. I'm not, you know, he's like, no, but you'll figure it out. He's like, whatever it is, he's like, you'll figure it out. He's like, there's another guy that I'll have for strength. There's another guy that I'll have for like, you know, being able to shoot really good and whatever it is. But you're the one that I want next to me to figure this out. Absolutely. I think that's the best compliment. Yeah. Who do be kidnapped with? I tell you, John, I'd be kidnapped with you. We would survive. We would be okay. Figure it out. That's it. That is, you know, I don't have all the skills.

Nobody knows, you know, truly what all the skills needed are. But what you know is how to go about it. And that's the difference. Total difference. And I think it stems from something that you and I are very aligned on. I don't know what yours are, but I have a good feeling they are. And it goes back to your dad, too, is the values part of this. A hundred percent. So how do you, because I tell reps this all the time, when they're looking for a new job or something like that, they'll come to me and they'll say, hey, John, I'm looking for a new job. And I say, okay, before you do anything, have you gone through the core value exercise? And they're like, what do you mean? And I'm like, have you really, really sat down and really analyzed what your core values are?

Because once you know what those are, you now go look for opportunities and people and everybody else that aligns with those. Because if your core values are off, we're just going to rip each other apart. But if they're aligned, we're going to have a great conversation and great relationship. So how do you help people understand what their values are and then use those values to be more effective in their communication and crisis management and everything else? In everything I've professionally done, my question always is, what are the three things most important to you? And that is about values. I always start my conversations like that. When my kids were very young too, I would sit with them and say, tell me what you want to do this year and tell me how you're going to go about it.

That's about values. This is marrying your objectives with your values. And, you know, at a very young age, very young age, Vicky was probably eight. She told me she wanted to go to Stanford. And the way she was going to go about it was she was going to start taking bow and arrow classes because they had a team, female team, and she figured out there are not too many women part of the team. The important thing there is what's important to her and how she's going to go about it. She ended up going to a UC, Santa Cruz, did great, and everything else. But at a very young age, I was telling them values are important, how you go about it is important, and everything else doesn't matter. So if you're consistent in your conversations, if you lead by example and you show them that, you know, I remember going to a meeting one day, long time ago.

I called my husband and said, how much money do we have in the bank? He says, why? I said, because I'm going to one of those meetings that I might leave without a job. He says, never worry about that. You be you. You be consistent with your values. We'll figure it out. And so you surround yourself with people that feel like you, that act like you, that have the courage to stand for what is right. And then nothing is impossible. Yeah, it's hard. Like so many, the, you know, what's disappointing, I think, in some ways is when you think you have, you're aligned on values and then crisis hits and the shit hits the fan. Right. And unfortunately, I've seen so many people who I thought had good core values.

This is where you learn in, in when, you know, estates, where you know your siblings in divorces, when you know your ex-spouse in crisis is when you know your friends. Difficult times make it so that some people rise to the occasion. Another blatantly disappoint you. But it's a good learning. It's a great learning. How do you, like, I think I failed my company pretty hard in early 2023 because I thought I was, in response to the crisis, you know, I put together a plan real quick with my executive team and then I was delivering it to my team. In what I thought was a very logical, calm, and we can do this way. But the reaction was not great. You know, from some of my employees was like, oh, you know, I didn't sign up to do this.

And it's like, whoa, like, like, it doesn't matter what you signed up for. This is where we are. Like, let's, we can do this. And I, and I thought I was, I was a good, I balanced it well enough, but obviously I didn't because a lot of them just were just like, nope, I can't do this. I'm out of here. So what's a way that a leader can approach a, like, approach a crisis that, that just happens to the team, right? A great example. I just got off the phone this morning with a big company whose CEO just left, like literally just this morning was like, I'm out, I'm out of here. And so they're all running around like crazy. And obviously the employees are like, what the hell is happening right now?

And so how can I, as that leader say, okay, yes, we are in crisis, but it's, we're going to figure it out because you don't always have the answer. Like, you don't want to lie to your employees and say, oh, this is exactly what we're going to do. But what can you do to soften the blow of a crisis and get people to calm down a little bit and realize that we can do this without putting a panic on them when it's obviously something that you could panic about? First, they come yourself. Yeah. You know, people are looking at how you react. Think of you as a parent with young kids. One time, our youngest one, jumping to the pool, open, oh my God, so much blood, the head was bleeding. I remained calm, although deep inside of me, I wanted to scream, cry, and, but if you do, that's how people perceive and that's how people react.

So number one, stay calm. I've learned, you know, my team always jokes. If Fabiana doesn't get worried, why do we get worried? And it's not that I'm not worried, it's that I learned throughout my career that truly, most things, give it a minute or two, and they're going to start to develop in a way that you can understand and react better to. So stay calm. Then emotional intelligence, I mean, cater to different people different ways. I mean, as a parent, again, this is our first lessons. You know, I have three kids. They're all different. They hurt themselves and they react different. You know, one of them is going to be, I am fine. And, you know, put a strong face. The other one's going to go, oh my God, mom, am I dying?

Am I dying? Am I dying? And the third one is in between. And so you cater to them in different ways. No, you're fine. You're not dying. This is just blood. The other one, you'd say, okay, you need to talk to me. You need to talk to me to make sure you're not in shock. You need to talk to me. So you, as a parent, have different messages for different kids. As a leader, you have different message for different employees. They all react differently. I mean, at this point, my core team, I've known them for so long. They know what to expect from me. I know what to expect from them. So, I guess, on the flip side, what are some mistakes that leaders make in times of crisis that really should be avoided?

Outside of, you know, the obvious, like, don't just run around like a chicken. We're like, oh my God, things are on fire. What are some other kind of not so obvious mistakes that leaders make in times of crisis that really derail their employees or their team? Being afraid. Afraid is your worst enemy. Concern is good because that gets the adrenaline going. But inaction is your worst, your worst enemy. I remember, and we all get stressed. I remember one time, I could not sleep. My father and I were so in tune that if I could not sleep and he was on the other side of the house, he would know. So, he, my rest of my family sleeping, my husband sleeping, nobody's, but I hear my father walking, going to the kitchen.

So, I get up. He goes, I knew you could not sleep. So, let's have some tea. And we sit there to drink tea. And I said, this at work I cannot resolve. I'm really concerned. And I'm telling him. And he goes, never forget, the worries are yours, but the cows are not. The worries are yours, but the cows are not? Okay. Yes. So, it's like a farmer saying, you know? Yeah. You worry about cows that are not yours. You're putting too much into it and you're not thinking critically. And so, take a step back and then everything starts falling into place. That's why he always said, you know, take a nap. Take your time. Make, you know, make space for it. And the right thing is going to come to you. And it's not applicable everywhere, but as a leader, you do not instinctively have to make a decision.

You need to cater to people's different needs and take a minute to think and reflect and make a decision then. Is that how you address kind of decision paralysis at this point? Because I think there's a lot of people right now, specifically in sales, there's actually a book called The Jolt Effect. And I think it's nailing the problem that sales professionals are having right now, which is, you know, clients are in a state of indecision. It's not no decision, it's indecision. And it's the reason is, is because things are moving so fast right now. And there's so many options that clients are just throwing up their hands and say, I'm just not going to, I'm just, I don't know what type of decision to do.

And so, they're not taking action. So, so with that is, how do you get, I mean, look, just do something, right? Move and do something. But how do you, with, with so many options in front of you to deal with, how do you whittle it down to the ones where you can say, okay, I'm going to start here? Is there, is there a process? Do you bring people through to help kind of distill what it is? Put it down, bring a piece of pen, a piece of paper and a pen and start going, let's each contribute an idea. What would you do right now in an ideal world? What would you do right now in this situation? And then, you know, you start talking about it. People feel part of it and people feel compelled to action.

If in each circumstance is different, but if they're part of the solution, so make them part of the solution. Actually, I think that's, you know, I think a big leadership fault that I see is, is to your point is not, you know, involving the team, if you will, is, is going back into the executive office with the executives and coming up with a plan and then giving it a to the team and saying, this is what we're going to do versus to your point, involving the team and saying, hey, let's figure this out. And there's a, there's a balance, right? Because there's confidence in our ability to figure it out, but you don't have to, like I said, say we, you know, I know the answer here. Because if you're ever in a leadership position and you say, you know, the answer, you're, everybody knows you're wrong because there's no right answer.

Correct. And, and, and, and, you know, it also, um, it's also valid when it's just you. So I remember I was very unhappy in a, in a job I had once. And it was a very tough situation. I had moved my family. Um, we were all relying on my salary. I had made a big professional bet to be there and I was unhappy and I was flying back from France. I would never forget. Um, and so I sat down with a piece of paper and I wrote, uh, you are not responsible for the dark. You can bring a light. And then how does that look like? So what are the small things I can do? You know, short of quitting my job, which I was not ready to make a difference. So the same way that you can do that for yourself, you do that for a team and you do that as a team.

Yeah, I think the, the, the team brainstorm, right. Is not used enough as far as, all right, any idea is a good idea. So let's figure out what those are and then let's prioritize and then let's execute. And that's where it's, to your point is like, even if you're down to a few of them, just pick one of them and go and, and fail fast, right. Try it out, fail fast. And then just keep generating. And I always go to my team. Ultimately I'm responsible. So I'm going to protect you. It's on me, but let's all talk about it. Which is, I'm curious about your six month rule. So in the book, you talk about the six month rule, right. Waiting for clarity before making decisions. But how does the six month rule, first of all, explain it.

Um, but then second of all, how does that, uh, uh, apply to every situation, John, for the situations that we're talking about sometimes requires an immediate decision. Okay. But for those where you have time, for example, coming back from France, I was not, if I had to, you know, if something would have happened that made me quit that job, I would have, but it was not that situation. It was a situation where I could think what's next. How am I going to execute it? What's best for me? What's best for my family? So in the situations where time is on your side and you have the opportunity to make an informed decision and take the next steps accordingly, it's the six month rule. It all started because my father growing up in Argentina said, whatever you want to be, be the best at it.

And for you to be the best at it, you have to study in the U.S. I was a lawyer already. And when I graduated in Argentina at a very young age, he says, well, you know, I have to go study in the U.S. We were finally a democracy. I'm loving life in Argentina. My father's in the government. Life is good. Local boyfriend. Why do I want to go to the U.S.? I could not understand. So he says, go, do it for six months. And if at six months you tell me, look, dad, I'm done studying in the U.S., I'm good. Come back and you're done. But you cannot make an informed decision without doing something for six months. So I came here to do my master's at UCLA. I got admitted at UCLA. And I was ready to do it six months.

And then, thank you, dad. I did it for six months. And then I got really into it because I am of a very competitive nature. I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to graduate. I'm going to graduate top of my class. And let me tell you. And so I did. I finished. And then I got my first big job offer in the U.S. And I remember calling my dad and saying, well, I mean, I wanted to go back to Argentina. And you said that if Avotero was done, he goes, you can always come back. But don't collect regrets. Don't ever look back and say, what would have happened? I said, remember the six months rule. Take the job. Do it for six months. And now you have six months work experience. And you can say, this is not for me.

Of course, this is 32 years ago. But the six months rules mean any time that you have time to make a decision, play it out. So, well, then how do we marry that up to your intuition? So, for instance, say you get into a six-month engagement because you have the time to be able to do it. And your gut just tells you like, this isn't right. This isn't right. So where's the line of six months versus intuition? Intuition always wins. But, you know, six months is a close cousin. If I cannot sleep or if it's constantly in my mind or if I feel fear or distrust or discomfort, there is no reason to wait six months. You know, I never understand those. Yeah, it was not true in the beginning, but we started dating.

If I'm not true in the beginning, there's no dating. Period. But those are four times where, like, this might not be the ideal candidate, but he's a good guy. Let's try out six months. But if I have any signs of something's wrong, ciao, baby. Because that's what I'm a little bit afraid of right now. That, like, here in the U.S., obviously, in the sales side of the house, reps are just bouncing from job to job to job to job to job. And I don't think it's because of their intuition. I think it's because it's, like, it's hard. You know what I mean? It's like they don't want to put in the effort. So how do you kind of balance the, hey, I don't like this, but, you know, if I'm looking at a 22-year-old kid, right, for instance, who's getting into sales, they're going to – the first five years in sales sucks.

It just is awful. You know what I mean? You're just making calls. You're just doing terrible stuff. And so, you know, they get in, and, like, three months in, six months in, it's hard. But that doesn't mean it's not worth doing. So is that they're just not cut out for this? Or should they forget their – you know, balance their intuition with reality of what's difficult to do? Send them on vacation to a third-world country for six months, and they'll learn real fast. Yeah, exactly. I have that discussion with my kids all the time. Mom is tough. And I'm like, oh, you're coming to the wrong person. And we joke about it now. They're like, oh, well, yeah, don't tell mom. But I said, I came to this country in a time where there was no cell phone, where there was no email, cameras, none.

Not my language, not my country, not my culture, no friends, no one. Yeah. And I made it. So I was able to get amazing grades, graduate from UCLA, one of the toughest schools out there, and yet learn how to live by myself. John, if you think about it, by the time I came here, I had never made my bed. I had never been alone. I have always had drivers and this and that and infrastructure around me because of the circumstances where we grew up. Never been alone. I remember when my father finally left me. He says, I have to go back. I sat down on the floor. I ate three Milky Ways. I went to bed. I said, tomorrow is a new day because I had never cooked for myself. I called my nanny the next morning and I'm like, how do we, I make the bed like at home.

She goes, baby, we start your sheets here and iron them. So just pull hard. You know, I was adapting to a whole, the funniest one, John, it's my neighbors in college, campus, three guys who've been looking at me and they're like, oh, she's kind of different. And after the third day, I go knock at their door and I'm like, excuse me, who comes to pick up the garbage? And they're looking at each other and they're like, oh, she's for real. And they're like, you take your garbage. I'm like, I take the garbage? And they're like, yeah, you take it to the dumpster. And I'm like, dumpster? So one of them goes, I'll help her. But I remember calling my dad, I go, dad, in America, people take their own garbage out.

And he's like, good, baby. It's good that you learned that. So I was living in a whole different world and yet made it. And then my kids go, well, it's tough. And I'm like, really? Yeah, I think it's all relative, right? Like once you start, that's why I don't watch the news anymore. It's just too depressing. But I did for a while. And one of the main reasons I did was obviously to stay up to date. But one of the main reasons I did was just to remind myself that no matter how bad my day is going, I could literally here in the United States of America, in Boston, Massachusetts, living the life that I live, I could have the worst day of my life. And I turn on the news and it's not that bad. It's just not that bad.

Yeah, and that is part of the education system that had failed us. And, you know, it's so U.S. centric our news. And so there is a world out there that is very, very, very. And that's why I think those are the best lessons that my kids have learned growing up here, but seeing what happens around the world. That's why I think traveling is so important for anybody, right? Is if you can travel, you all of a sudden start to see, first of all, everybody else is human and everybody else has problems and everybody else. But you also understand the privilege that you have and the advantages, potentially, that you might have in life. And the responsibility is to do something with it. Because being so fortunate and so blessed, you cannot not help those around you, period.

Well, unfortunately, some people can't, but you shouldn't be able to, right? I think that that's the point. More on the YouTube. Yeah, exactly. You know, my friend, James Buckley, it's funny, he goes to Ghana, you know, once a year. And my sister actually was in the Peace Corps in Ghana. And he's like, John, it's amazing. These people have nothing. When I say nothing, like not running water, not electricity, no toys to play with, nothing. And yet they are the happiest people you will ever meet. And he's like, you know, you come back to America and you complain that your Starbucks coffee wasn't warm enough. You know what I mean? And you're pissed. And yet these kids are literally living in a dirt hut with nothing.

And they're just genuinely happy people. And I wish more people would get exposed to that to realize that, you know. Yeah. Everything doesn't have to be a crisis. Everything doesn't have to be a woe is me. Like you can put things into perspective and actually then go out there and spread positivity as opposed to, you know, this negativity. And that's where I want to end up with this is how do you balance that with like from an empathy standpoint, but also assertiveness, right? So when it comes to negotiations, right, we obviously want to stand our ground in some cases because we have what we have. But we also, it's really important to have empathy for the person on the other end who is going through whatever their situation is.

So what's the balance for you of assertiveness versus empathy? I think you cannot have a successful negotiation without both because nobody wins. Any relationship where there's a disbalance of power, one is totally powerful and the other one's not, it's not a good relationship. Long term, it's going to fail. Same in a negotiation. You're not going to win every single one. You're going to come to a place where there's mutual respect and there's mutual understanding that we both win, that we both get something we want. Same in any relationship, you know, in friendship. I don't believe in one-sided relationship of anything, one-sided negotiations. I mean, as a country, we're learning in the United States.

As a country, we're not as powerful as we think we once were. We, you know, we don't always get what we want in life, in personal, in professional. And so you learn to see it from somebody else's perspective. And I always think if I were on that side, how would I feel? Yeah. It's interesting. I had a small example of that yesterday when, you know, I was calling in for customer support or whatever for Marriott. And the woman literally, like, she came at me pretty harsh. You know, I didn't have a tone in my voice or anything. And she said, sir, calm down. And I'm like, whoa. First of all, the words calm down never calmed anybody down. And then she proceeded to kind of say it was my fault and react poorly to me.

And at first, my gut reaction was immediately flip on her and say and start an argument. But I took a breath. It wasn't six months. But I took a breath. And I thought to myself, like, this is a customer success person at a hotel chain right now where the weather in the United States is a mess. And so I guarantee you there's hundreds of cancellations and hundreds of extremely aggravated people that are probably calling her and ripping her apart for no reason. You know, she's not the one that made that happen. And so just in that slight two-second reflection, I was able to just take a breath and not react. Because there's something that my wife and I learned early in our relationship, which was escalation, right?

So we knew, like, my wife's Italian. And I, you know, and I'm Irish. So we, Irish Catholics, we stuff down our emotions. I mean, we can go Italian. I love it. Zero to 100 in three seconds. In a second. And so she would, so what would happen was she would, you know, come, you know, yell, pick on me or something like that. And I would then react and go above that, right? Because for me to get in an argument, it takes a while. But once I get in an argument, I'm not going to lose it. That's at least what my psychology goes by. So it all of a sudden, I'd go on top of her. She would escalate there. And then it would explode. And as soon as the therapist actually labeled it as, you know, what it was, and we recognized it, we were able to stop it before it got to a level.

And I think that's the same thing when it's, you know, when it comes to negotiations. It's like all of a sudden the client's going to come at you and you're going to, there's a certain part where you just don't feel it's fair or you feel like they're whatever. And then you react. So, and then it just spirals out of control. How do you prevent that from your perspective? Like in a negotiation, because there are points where I talk to reps about, we all have an imaginary, we all have a walkaway line where you and I are talking, it's relatively equal. But then all of a sudden it gets to a point where it, in our head, it's, wait a minute, you've gone too far. This isn't fair anymore. And the immediate reaction is to react to that and start trying to, you know, conflict.

Where, so how do you pause for a second and do you have a defined walkaway line? Do you just know what your values are and say, look, you've crossed it. I'm done. Thank you very much. Or is there a way you can proactively address that? Respect is pretty much my line. Yes, that's true. But I also, including their integrity and transparency. I also come very well prepared. I know generally what is important to them. So it's no mystery. Everybody has to win something, John. Otherwise, again, you know. If there's a winner and a loser, that's a horrible negotiation. You might as well be a conqueror and it doesn't work. And especially growing in a country during a dictatorship that was all about fear, you realize fear doesn't work either.

So no imbalance. You have to come transparent. You have to come realistic. But if you cross a certain line of respect, I would probably take some time off and I would say, listen, I'm not going to be talked like that. And, you know, I treat you with respect. In fact, I ask the same. And if this is not a good time, let's talk about it later. So you don't have to compromise your integrity. You don't have to compromise who you are. But you also have to be understanding, like you did with a hotel person, for sure. She's having a bad day. She must have misunderstood what I was asking or how I was asking it. So, yeah. I think that, quite frankly, I think if I had a time machine, I'm pretty sure I know the moment that the U.S.

government fractured. Because, you know, Republicans, Democrats used to work together pretty well. And I remember vividly when Obama was in office and I forget who the Speaker of the House was, Boehner. So they, and I remember Boehner walked out of a negotiation for a bunch of stuff and he had this big shit-eating grin on his face. And he said to the cameras that they were like, oh, how'd the negotiation go? And he goes, we got 99% of what we wanted. And as soon as he said, we got 99% of what we wanted, I was like, oh no. Because that means he won and Obama lost. And it was, it was obvious when it came out of that what had happened. And I was like, oh shit. And then Obama got his second term.

And then, and I don't know if people don't remember, but that first six months of Obama's second term, he treated Boehner like an absolute redheaded stepchild. He, he just abused him. He did whatever he wanted to him. And that's when it just started to go like this almost immediately. And it's because Boehner won the negotiation and really did not. And, and Obama lost the negotiation. And by the way, I'm not talking good and bad here. I'm not talking Republican and Democrat. I'm talking what happened in the moment. And I saw it live and I was like, holy shit, that's a problem. Well, the problem becomes, you know, and I have to say, uh, I'm a Democrat, but I can, I can definitely discuss with Republicans ideas.

The lack of respect, the aggressiveness, the racism, the homophobia, all of that. I cannot, because there are to me, fundamental human rights. That's a line you don't cross everything else. Let's talk about everything else with respect, with facts, you know, the aggression, the violence, and that escalates. And if you ever lived where I came from, you trust me, you don't want it because somebody can always up you one. It's just not a good result. If you have to fear for your life, if you have to fear for your kid's life, if you have to fear for your ability to, to, to, to pray the way you want, to love the way you want, to dress the way you want. You're not free. Yeah. Nope. No, the perception of free, but freedom is a, freedom is a definitely, again, a relative thing.

So, Fabio, I think you and I could talk a lot about all sorts of different topics here, but we got to tie it up here within the hour. So, um, talk to me a little bit about where people can find out more about your book, what you're doing, and, uh, some of the fun stuff that you're working on right now. So, um, the book is in Amazon. You put Crisis Capable, Fabiana Dacerca, you find it, Barnes and Noble, Target, you know, just look it up in the internet. It's there. Um, I'm always doing interesting things. I'm, I mentor, I work as a chief compliance officer for a big pharma. Um, I volunteer at the Red Cross. I do interesting things. It's all about giving back. It's about, uh, hoping people can learn from my experiences and hoping I can make a difference.

So if anybody's interested in sharing ideas, in having a discussion, in disagreeing with me, in providing feedback, contact me via, uh, LinkedIn. And I'd be so happy to have a discussion with you. Perfect. And we'll put that all in the show notes for everybody, her LinkedIn profile, her book, her Amazon, and everybody else. So, Fabiana, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a really fun conversation. John, I really enjoyed it. I hope we do this again. Honestly, my intuition tells me we could be talking for hours. Oh, easily, easily. So, Fabiana, thank you so much. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Um, so everybody, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I say, at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, you make somebody smile today and you know you had a good day. The world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey everyone, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now and I can't thank you enough. Now, to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me if you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day just like you.

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