Gina Trimarco: Elevating Your Sales Skills Through Improv

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And this was a fun conversation with Gina Tremarco. She's a master sales improv trainer with Sales Gravy and a leadership strategist who helps organizations re-humanize relationships through improvised intelligence, which I thought was really cool. And what that is, is improv-based emotional intelligence, which was super interesting to me. I've always thought improv is such a great tool for anybody. You go to an improv course and it frees you and it helps you understand and it is so applicable to sales.

So we dove into that. First of all, we talked about her background and she's got a very unique background, which is hysterical. And how it gave her grit and passion and drive and also led to her career in sales and then improv as well. Well, actually how improv led to a career in sales. And so we go through a lot of stuff about her midlife college crisis, the art and the science of sales. Really, really interesting perspective on that one from her. Also the rules of improv, which are so aligned with the rules of sales, right? Like the number one rule of improv is to make the other person look good. And isn't that what we're supposed to do in sales is make the person that we're working with look good.

And you got to be a good listener, obviously. And one of the things she said was acceptance without agreement. So I'm going to accept what you say. I don't necessarily have to agree with it, but going to accept it. And it's the yes and versus the yes, but it's that whole mentality. So we got into some really cool stuff. This is such a fun conversation. So I hope you enjoy this as much as I did and let's make it happen. Gina, Tremarco, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. How are you? I am awesome. I'm so excited to be here with you because I've followed you for years and you like took some kind of bait I put on LinkedIn and here I am. So thanks for doing that. I was going to say, like, I actually, what was the post?

Because you said something that it really struck me and I was like, we got to have this conversation. Like I actually got so ingrained in doing the background on you that I forgot what the post was. What was the post again? I don't remember. I don't remember what I had for breakfast. Yeah. The same thing here. I mean, that's, I forget what it was something about. Well, I've always been fascinated with, you know, the improv side of the house and I've always like early days of my career, you know, there's Boston, they have this improv asylum where you can go and they have classes where you actually go and learn. And a lot of sales organizations brought their teams to these. And I thought it was fascinating.

So it might've been improv related. I'm not sure, but you commented and I was like, come on in. Yeah. Come on in. So look, you know, let's, uh, as we always do here, um, start with your origin story, right? We'll talk about the business side of the house and we'll get into those. But I always love to learn where people are coming from, like, you know, grew up family, you know, all that stuff and nature nurture shit. So give us, give us who Gina is and where you're coming from. I love the nature nurture. Cause you know, I'm in the middle of writing my book right now, improvised intelligence. And I struggle in the writing process because so much of my story, you know, it goes back to how I was raised.

But when I look at how I was raised, it goes hand in hand with the world of improv and like the whole common sense and street smarts kind of thing. But when you go back to my origin story, um, my mother was a German immigrant who came to this country at the age of 10, um, ran away from home. They, they, they moved here. They lived in Texas. They lived in Michigan. She kept running away from home at the age of 16, running to Chicago, which was an hour and a half away. And she'd jump in with a truck driver and go over to Chicago. And then my grandfather would have to like go find her and bring her back and, um, crazy stuff. And she ultimately ended up with my dad in Chicago, who was a truck driver.

And, um, she didn't meet him that way. She actually met him through a friend of his that she was dating a different truck driver. And, um, that he decided to go back to his wife. Um, and, and, and, and said, you meet my friend, Carmi. And like, that's literally how my parents met. So my, like my mom was like, hand it off. And, um, I know that'll offend some people, but get over it. So my dad, 25 years older than my mother. Right. So yeah, my, my mom's German. She's at that point, I think only in the country, seven years, not a citizen meets my dad. He's old school Italian. I mean, not just old school. He's like Chicago work for the mob Italian one, a Sam G and kind of drive drivers. Um, every one of my aunts and uncles did a thing.

Um, my grandfather was a bootlegger. Um, so when you think about my dad, who's born in 1920 and my mother was born in 1944. Right. So how many, how many cousins are Anthony's do you have in your family? Oh my God. So many Anthony's. So many Anthony's Italian and she has like 50 Anthony's. So I don't even have to remember people's names. I'm like, Hey Anthony, what's up, man. And everybody is like, um, the word boy or the word girl follows, which again would be offensive to some people, but in our family, it would be like Danny boy, Gina girl. Like everybody had a boy or a girl that would follow their names and everybody had nicknames. Like I had an uncle blubber figure it out, but he was John.

Right. Um, so all these interesting, interesting names. And so imagine that kind of family that I'm growing up with and rather unique. And, um, luckily there were no Gina's in the family, which is weird, but my high school, all Italian, all, all Catholic, all girls school, everybody's name was Gina. So you're, you know, you know, you whip your head around and eighties hair would hurt people. And, um, so where I like got my sales chops and, and where I got kind of just my street smarts besides education, you know, college education is that my dad made my brother and I work in a flea market every weekend. Now we're the second set of kids from my dad. So I have sisters my age and my mother's age.

And then my dad has another set of kids. So he made us work in the flea market every weekend. Now, what we didn't know as kids is that he was still involved in things. Um, and he told us a lot of different stories growing up. His stories, um, you know, with Sam Giancana, for example, of, um, yeah, you know, your uncle so-and-so, he had debt going, he had some debt and they put a hit on him. And I had to talk to Sam and ask Sam Momo Giancana to, you know, not whack him. Like, you know, you would hear some of those stories, but I didn't, you know, at that point think I'm 10 years old working in a flea market and my dad's 58. Right. And I'm selling members only jackets, Jordache jeans, right. Things that fall off the back of a truck.

And I don't know it. I have no idea. And I was thinking about this. I'm like, I was like such a little adult because my dad was also a self-taught locksmith. He was like all the things. And we would have these key machines at the flea market and he taught us how to cut keys. So we're selling toasters, members only jackets, cutting keys. And then my dad would be running a poker game. Um, I thought he was just playing cards, but I'm pretty sure he's running a poker game. So he's playing a poker game and there I am selling stuff. And someone shows up and says, where's the key man? I'm like, he's busy. You need a key? He's like, well, when's he coming back? I'm like, I can do it. And he was like looking at me incredulously.

And he's like, and it was weird because I've been reflecting on this and I could read his face. And so I learned at a really young age how to read people. And I said, if there's a problem with the key, you can bring it back. Like I knew what he was thinking. And he was like, well, I go, you know, the key man could also make a mistake making your keys. So just try it. Right. And so these are the things I learned in a flea market. And at some point I was like, I could do better. There's like a guy across the way selling furniture, couches, you know, all the things. And I don't know how this happened, but he's like, you want to come work for me? And I'm like, much rather sell furniture because I could sit on that couch all day.

That's all I was thinking about. And so the guy offered me a job and it paid more than what my dad was paying. Like it was way better pay for a kid. And so I told my dad, I said, I'm going to go work for Joe. He pays more than you. So there it is, which kind of pissed off my brother because then my brother got stuck doing things. So my dad was like, yeah, okay. I said, I just want caveat. I just, I need a ride. So you still need to drive me every weekend. And so those are like my early negotiation days. Those were my early relating to people days. And, you know, I became like self-made at a really young age. And then my dad got really sick when I was 12. And, you know, I continued to hustle because I wanted to pay for things.

My parents didn't have the money. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom until she became a waitress again because my dad was sick and, you know, put, you know, was constantly working through high school at an all-girls school and then put myself through college constantly working. So my whole entire kind of background and origin story was about working hard and having work ethic against the craziness of my dad's dealings, right? What he taught us was how to work hard, how to show up, how to talk to people, how to be not on time, but early, which was annoying then, but now is a thing. And I, like all of the things, all the common sense things are the things that he taught me that gave me the grit that then kind of pushed me through my career.

And then I met improv. That gives you the, that gives you the origin of who I was before business. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that will be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done.

And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to jbarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. So let's, let's chat about grit here for a second. I feel like my dad, every time I bring this up, but it is out of all the things generationally, right, that I'm noticing right now, I'm worried about grit. I'm worried about work ethic. I'm also juxtaposing that with the fact that I understand that kids have a lot more options these days than, than we did. Right. So, you know, I look at me getting into, you know, out of college and getting a job and working my ass off for, you know, very little money, but working and then, you know, earning the right to that next step, but just, you know, being stood in the box and being managed and micromanaged and, and all that shit that, that I absolutely hated at the time, but built me into what I am today.

Right. And able to be resilient, able to be, have that grit. And, and now I understand the kids that they can make money in a million different ways. I mean, you and I needed a degree to even get a, a invite to the table to be looked at. Yeah. These kids can start an Amazon shop and go on TikTok, whatever it is, but because they're not going through the grind of that structure in a lot of ways, for instance, if TikTok falls apart, if TikTok gets banned in America, there's going to be a lot of people who are dead in the water because that's like, so what's your perception or perspective on grit and work ethic in today's world right now? Well, I want to attack this in two parts, right? The last part you said about TikTok, you know, and things like failing like that.

I think grit will happen because there are going to be bubbles, right? Like, just like there was the.com bubble, right? There's going to be the different bubbles that are cyclical with the economy where, oh shit, you're going to have to figure it out. You thought you were going to do X. Now you're going to do Y. And I try to keep perspective on this to not stay in my age lane because I always want to stay kind of humble and learn from those following me versus, you know, along with those that I'm following. And I think where I've gotten my biggest lesson lately is with my stepson. So my stepson is nearly 17 going on 58 and incredibly smart, really bright, high amount of emotional intelligence in my opinion.

But I do worry like because he's not going to necessarily have that grit, so to speak. Now, he's also a huge follower of Gary V. And so what I found really interesting, I'm like, you know, Gary V is. I'm like, how does this kid know that? But then you think about what is happening social media wise and YouTube wise? And this kid has got a little side hustle selling gym shoes. And I'm like, I'm like, okay, you are like me and my dad, right? Like he's, yeah, he highly, you know, nearly perfect score on his PSAT is going to get, he's in the 1%, right? Smart, smart kid. I think there's a couple different things to look at here. He's going to be just fine because he's got gritty parents, right? Two sets of gritty parents.

I think he'll be fine. But the kids who don't have that, the young people who don't have that, that's where I'm concerned because they had helicopter parents, some of them, not all of them. I don't want to generalize, but we're going to see that as leaders. How are we going to deal with it? And my total stance on, if I put my thing in the stand, mistake in the stand is this is going to come down to leaders. Sadly, it is what it is, right? We have to be able to adapt and flex to what we're being served up. And the reality is, is that we're going to inevitably have people who don't have the grit and we're going to have to find a way to teach them that. But on their terms, they're not going to understand the grit that we understand.

Take away their TikTok. That might be how they learn about grit. So I think, you know, every generation has complained about the generation behind them. But I think at the end of the day, no matter the generation, no matter the economy, no matter the situation, leaders are going to have to step in and lead and be mentors and teach them. And that's scary to me because I don't think there's a ton of leaders out there that don't know how to do it the right way or have been taught to be how to lead, you know, leaders. It's like coaches, right? Like managers, the best rep usually becomes the manager and that manager doesn't get told how to be a manager. And they now have to train everybody on how they did what they did and they don't know how to do it.

Sounds like a niche we should focus on, John. Yeah, right. No shit. But yes, I don't know. I'm always curious, you know, perspective, right? Because I'm like you, I'm like, I don't want to sound, I want to adapt. I want to, and it's going to lead to our, our conversation, but it is, there is some undertones here that I'm looking at going, oh man, like now it's interesting because this generation has come through a lot, quite frankly. I mean, with COVID and all this shit that's going on, like they've, they've actually been through quite a bit, but it, it's not translating in, in, in what I'm seeing as far as the work of, in the office, right? Where they were at five o'clock, they're out. No, you know, they don't work that late anymore, at least the, you know, clients that I've been worked with in the past.

And so I'm, I'm hoping that they don't have to go through as much pain as maybe you and I did our grit, but I think it's inevitable that they have to go through some pain, right? Yeah. And I, but it's going to be their version of pain. Like I've, I've studied this a lot with the different generations and good for them. They go home at five o'clock. Yeah. Like we didn't learn that. Right. And so they look at us like, you're the dumb one. Right. And sometimes I'm like, maybe we are the dumb one. So, you know, what the research shows is that they have been watching the other generations going, I don't want to be burnt out. I don't want to be miserable. And I'll tell you, there was a day that, you know, not that long ago, I had a stressful day.

I was kind of bitching up a storm, bitching and moaning and let it go. A couple of days later, stepson comes home upset with his robotics team and the politics of it and starts complaining about, he starts making references to like how I talk about when I'm frustrated at work. And I'm like, oh shit, I got to watch myself on it. So they absorb that. They learn it. They see it. They're like, I don't want that. And, and I told my husband, I'm like, that was a huge aha for me that I need to step back and look at things because I don't want to have that effect on my stepson. And, you know, they might be the smarter ones when it comes to that. But again, I think we can find a way to teach grit. Again, going back to what you said, not everybody has the leadership ability to do that, but hasn't that been going on for decades, right?

Oh yeah. Oh, that's, that's an age old conversation as far as the lack of leadership skills out there. But you're right. I think, you know, Richard Harris is the one who got me to wake up a little bit to this. He's like, you know, we all bitch about these other younger generations. He's like, you know where a lot of it comes from. I was like, where? He's like, jealousy. He's like, we didn't have the options that they have. We didn't have the resources that they have. So we're looking at them be like all these stupid kids, you know, they're there. But if we had those options, we'd be doing the exact same thing. All day long. All day long. I think I always have to check myself of like, okay, is this me just being jealous?

Cause I didn't have those opportunities. I didn't, I, I went through the pain and they're not having to go through that pain like I did. Right. And earn it shit. So I think there's a balance there. Yeah. I, I'm, I'm constantly coaching leaders on this, right? Because, um, actually I just pulled an article yesterday from Harvard business review. I'll send you a link to it on motivating employees. And it grabbed my attention because I do have some leaders that I, that I coach where they've been super frustrated. They're like, can you teach us how to teach them how to have swagger? And I'm like, no, I can't teach you that. But like, they're not like us. And I'm like, correct. Um, you have to find out what motivates them and then flex to that.

And, and PS it's work. It's also hiring. I think that's my big aha moment. My big aha moment was when I was like 25, I think I was 25 years old and we had grown our company. I was, you know, fourth person on board at our first startup and we grew up to about 50 people and Jack Welsh came, uh, to Boston and did his, you know, seminar Q and a session. And, uh, I stood up in front of a, you know, probably five, six, 7,000 people or something like that. And I asked what I, what I thought was a good question, but it was a dumb question, obviously. And I said, Jack, you know, when we were four people, five people, 10 people, 20, everybody was all in and super passionate and go, go, go. Right. I'm like, you know, we were up to 50 now.

And I, I just hired that 51st person and they just don't seem to have that passion. They don't seem to have that drive. And I asked the dumb question now that I know he said, I said, how do you instill your passion on somebody else? And in front of 8,000 people, he basically said, I was an idiot. He goes, he goes, you can't, you can't. He's like, you have to hire it. And literally that moment changed my entire hiring profile. I stopped hiring on skill. I stopped hiring on background and experience and I started hiring on grit and passion and drive because I can teach the rest of that shit. I can't teach grit. I don't feel like I can teach passion. Yeah. Especially if that's the culture that you want to cultivate.

Right. Right. Right. Like you have to hire that. And I talk about this as well. I'm like, well, what do you, what's your hiring process? And then what's your retention process? Right. You bring them in and then what do you do with them? So you don't just bring them in and walk away. You still have to do things and you still have to meet them where they are and they all want to be met in a different place. And that is our job as leaders. Otherwise, don't be a leader. A hundred percent. Actually, the scary thing is, you know, where I think it's AI is going to have the biggest impact is actually coaching. Interesting. Because it can be so personalized. Yes. And it's pseudo objective in the sense when a rep takes feedback for you and I, because let's go back to the helicopter parent scenario.

If that kid has never gotten very direct feedback in their life and you and I come with what we think is very direct, honest feedback and they almost take offense to it. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And now it's personal. Well, she doesn't like me. He doesn't like me. So regardless of how good the feedback is, they're not accepting it because they think it's personal about them. Whereas an AI bot, if we put the right criteria in place and give them the feedback immediately, there's this, and they're growing up that way anyways. So I actually think coaching, frontline coaching, in the moment coaching, after a call coaching is where AI is going to have a huge positive impact on this whole system.

Better find out some, better find some better differentiators for us. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's, well, let's talk about grit because I think what you're doing right now is, is a, is an interesting way of, of actually uncovering grit in a lot of ways because of the confidence that it builds when it comes to improvisation, right? Because I think as sales reps, my fear is always, you know, onboarding when you teach the kid the script and you give them the templates and they, you know, the, and you, you badge them on the, the presentation and that's all they know how to do. So they just go through and they're not able to adjust in the moment. They're not able to take that curve ball and, and address it and bring it back to center.

So I want to, we're going to talk about improv and the importance of it, I think, and how critical it is to be that actually trained in that when it comes to sales. But how did you get into, I mean, your, your history comes true to that, but where did improv like click for you? Like, wait a minute, this is, this is some cool shit. Like I need to double down on this. Yeah. Interesting. So, you know, when you grew up in Chicago, like I did, right. Improv is, you know, like lobster in Boston. I don't know. I'm just trying to, right. So, so you have improv and you grew up on it and, um, you don't think twice about it, but I had like a, what I call a mid college crisis. So my freshman year of college, college, I was an accounting major, um, because to satisfy my dad, he thought that being an accountant would, you know, be the thing, um, because nobody had an education.

I think he wanted me to, I don't know, launder money maybe, but he, he pushed, you know, he pushed on accounting and, um, I had always had a creative side. I was always involved in the arts in some way, shape or form. And I just was, God, I was just, God, this sucks. I was just hating it. And I was bad at math too. I still am. And so I came home that summer, that freshman year and like, I'm going to find something else. And I always was interested in entertainment. Like it's where I wanted to go. And so I started looking at vocational schools and I go check out this vocational school, the Columbia School of Broadcasting, right? As one of these vocational schools, just leave it at that. So I go and I meet with, you know, a career counselor and, um, who's really a sales guy.

Right. And he, he, he literally, as we're talking, I'm like, you know, I want to go into TV and radio and, you know, he shuts the door behind me back in the day when it was okay to do that. And I'm like, this is creepy. And, um, he's like, get out. No, he didn't say it like that, but he's like, he's like, you do not want to go here. And I'm like, what? He's like, you do not want to go here. And he was like trying to tell me without telling me like you fly by night. And I'm like, but I need a creative outlet. And he's like, go take a, go take an improv class. Go, go take an improv class at second city. That's what I'm doing. That's what I do. And he was an aspiring actor and comedian and this was his day gig.

And so I was like, oh, you know, I never knew I could do that. Like you grew up going to the shows. I didn't realize I could take classes. And at that time I was just 19. So I'm like, all right. And I signed up for a class that summer and I fell in love with it, um, quickly. And I was the youngest one in the class and everybody, um, the majority of the people in my class were like ad agency executives at the top agencies in Chicago. And, um, I had like this new tribe of people that understood me and got me and saw me and saw the creative side of me and, um, treated me like them. And it's kind of cool now when I've got like 19 year olds coming to our classes. Um, cause I had one say that to me that that's how they felt coming and being around other adults that accepted them.

And so what, what improv taught me that summer was shit, I don't want to be an accountant. And I changed my major to radio TV film as a result of improv because I, I, I started to own my talent and my creativity. And I'm like, I can do this. And like, just in a summer, it immediately boosted. You talk about confidence. And I'm, it's funny. You bring this up because I'm in the middle of writing my confidence chapter today, um, that improv does. And I got this instant confidence and swagger. And I went, I changed my major and I wrote out that next year, 70 miles outside of Chicago. And I'm like, I gotta transfer schools and be downtown so that I can have access to TV stations and radio stations and all these ad execs.

And I ultimately did that. I, I transferred to DePaul University, continued taking improv classes and was very immersed in it. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. And I, and I quickly learned though, that, um, as much as I wanted to be discovered to be on Saturday Night Live, it wasn't going to happen. The odds were against me for a variety of reasons. And I just continued on my way in television. And so I worked in television, television production for a long time. And then that catapulted me into marketing and PR roles, sales roles. And, um, I was in entertainment marketing for a really long time, which led me through like a couple decades of career until I got, um, recruited for a job, um, in the entertainment attraction world in South Carolina, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

And I moved to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, very burnt out for a variety of reasons. And I'm like, ah, you know, I'll go take an improv class because improv classes are like cheap therapy. It's like cheap group therapy. It's playtime for adults and it's allowable and acceptable. And I'm like, I'll go take an improv class. It'll readjust my attitude because I was failing as a leader because I was burnt out and I knew it. And nobody knew what improv was in Riddle Beach, South Carolina. And I was so depressed. And, you know, a year later when I start, the business was up and running Carolina improv and I had to go pick up our branded shirts, the lady who I'm like, Hey, I'm here to pick up my shirts for Carolina improv.

And she literally got on the, you know, the overhead to call into the back and be like, the lady from Carolina improve is here to get her shirts. And I'm like, oh my God, please tell me the shirts don't say Carolina improve or that's how, that's how little that they knew what improv was. And so, you know, ultimately because I couldn't find it, people were like, why don't you teach it? Why don't you start it? Why don't you do it? And in improv world, you're like, yes, and okay. I'm like, this is the last thing I want to do. I'm burnt out. And I had no choice. I mean, in order to create a community of refuge like that, I, to have it, I had to create it. And this is what improv is about. It's like, imagine it, make it happen.

Don't talk about it, do it. And so started that first class because of my marketing background. I'm like, I have a website. I've got business cards. I knew how to call the media and get TV interviews. And literally we're on the front page of the newspaper within four months. And, you know, every television station I could speak to, I did. And that's, you know, I didn't see. So now that I got that going, and you have to understand the history of that, when people started taking these classes, then business people started saying to me, could you come to our company and do this? Like, they didn't know how to describe it, but they're like, we need this at our jobs. And I'm like, yeah, okay. And so I started doing that.

So I fell into training, bringing improv into organizations. And we focused on team building, culture, leadership. And then people started saying, can you come speak at our Rotary Club? And now, you know, all these years later, I'm a keynote speaker. Like I fell in to all of it because I yes and did everything everyone asked me to, but where, where the change happened in sales, because I was really focused on customer service, leadership, team building, collaboration. That's where I was focused from as a training company. And then all of a sudden I started getting timeshare sales people signing up for these six week classes, right? Like the timeshare people taking classes with Josie, the retired lady, John, the teacher, Bill, the cop, and you know, Helga, who just moved here from Russia.

Right. So, so all of a sudden it was like a Pied Piper effect. And I had all these timeshare sales people showing up and I'm like, I'm like, what is going on? They're like, well, Bill said he's making, he's closing more deals since he started taking improv classes. And I'm like, huh, interesting. And so, you know, we, we talk about curiosity. Improv teaches us to stay curious. And so I just kept probing that little did I know I was really good at discovery. And I would just ask all these questions and I'm like, we got to spin this out differently. I have to, I have to turn this into a sales training company because it's way easier for me to sell sales training than it is to sell leadership training.

As you know, I'm like, I got to get through the front door with sales and I'm going to niche and I'm going to use improv as the hook for sales. And that's where it's the timeshare sales people where I really saw the opportunity. It's funny because that I'm curious about that because timeshare sales to me is actually the more the most scientific of the sale. And when I say that, like, I, you know, obviously sales is an art and a science, right? You know, I tend to think it's a little bit more of a science because there's structure to it that allows the art form, just like I'm assuming, and I'll, and I'd love to unpack this with you as far as like, what's the structure you bring people through?

Cause you have to have some type of structure in order to figure out your art form. Right. But timeshares, like they are so scientific with their approach. Like if they say this, then this, then they're bringing the manager and then you have the special deal and then it's this. So it's interesting that that was the group that wanted improv because to me, it doesn't sound, uh, improv or timeshare sales isn't very improvisational in a lot of ways. So I'm curious, have you, did you see that kind of balance there with them? Because I, my experience with them is like, I watch exactly what you do. I know what your next step's going to be because you're, you're working the script of a timeshare sales rep.

So were these sales reps a little bit more autonomous or were they part of the system? Um, you know, they had to follow the system. Right. And I, I had one of the top guys who not only took the classes, he then became part of our performance team and he was like the head recruiter. Um, you know, so he was constant and he was constantly poaching from my class. He would literally poach, um, new timeshares, salespeople, because he saw the value of it that the bigger structure of the company couldn't see. Like they're not, they weren't wrapping their head around. I tried for years to get in, um, to train, but they weren't going to change their frameworks and they weren't understanding that I'm not asking you to change the framework.

So whether it's timeshare or any other business, you know, there's a sales process. There is a script that we follow and you need to know that, but then you've got to be able to improvise and flex in certain situations because it's not in the script, um, why this person objected you. Like the objection on the surface is the typical objection, but you've got to be able to flex in the moment. And so I think where they saw, where they saw the impact was that, and they told me this is that they were, it was easier for them to have conversations with people. And that, that was the rub. Like I'm having more, I'm having better conversations. I'm more confident. I'm more comfortable. I don't freak out anymore when I get an objection.

I'm just like cool and in the moment and I flow with it and nothing throws me. And so that's the power of improv, not just in personal life, but in business. It is, it's the emotional intelligence component of it. Because if you think about EQ, self-awareness, social awareness, we teach the number one job on stage is to make the other person look good. And you also need to be self-aware and you have to listen and you have to pay attention and you have to listen with your, with your intuition. And that's, that's what sales is. And so they weren't going off their framework for the timeshare. They were just connecting better. The top salespeople were able to connect better and to quickly morph to have these conversations.

And one of my, she was one of my teachers. She was one of our performers. She became a top salesperson at that timeshare. And she was a stay-at-home mom. She got poached and became a top salesperson because people loved talking to her. They felt like she cared. They felt like she could relate. That was the key. So she didn't change the framework of the process. She just changed how she talked to people. So what's the framework for improv? Yeah. And you don't have to give up all the secrets here, but I, cause I know you train this stuff, but like, you know, a lot of people would think that improv is improv. So it's all art, right? You're just getting shit thrown at you and I'm going to start saying random shit and throw me, you know, throw me words.

What's, what is the structure of improv? Yeah. And, and, and, and it's not a secret. Um, I don't own it. I don't own improv. Um, if you go back to the origins of improv, um, Viola, uh, Viola Spolin, um, was the godmother of it. Um, she actually learned it from, um, a social worker, um, who started finding games to help kids relate. And, um, actually this was in Chicago, 1920s, they were using kids games to teach the immigrants how to socialize and communicate. And then Viola came along apprentice under that social worker and also had a theater background and started taking those games and using them in, in theater and being able to adapt that, adapt those games, right? Through the process. And so every game has a, has a framework to it.

And so when you learn the framework of the game, um, the audience has no idea, right? Cause they really do. When people are like, I can never improvise. I'm like, we're just following the framework and then going off the framework. You know, the, the core foundation, it's more about the rules of improv, right? Um, number one rule, make other people look good, right? If you focus on that and not worry about yourself, then you automatically look good because you're worried about somebody else, kind of like servant leadership ish, right? That's number one. In order to do that, you have to be a really good listener. You got to really listen with your ears, your eyes, your intuition, pay attention to what people say, what their body language is, tune into your own senses of what's going on here, right?

And then, right? It's the whole yes and framework, which is about acceptance without agreement, right? If I hear you, then I'm going to validate you and I'm going to validate you. If we do this in a literal sense, I'm going to validate you by maybe repeating what I heard you say. Okay. Now let's think about this in sales. Every now and then I'm going to sprinkle in and call back something you said to me. And that shows you I listened, but it also shows you that I validated you. So now if I take yes and the framework and use it in objection turnaround, yes, we're too expensive for you, right? I just validated them by repeating them. And now I'm going to take it to the next level and heighten it, move it, divert it.

But my goal is a collaboration. So it's communicate, validate, collaborate, right? Communicate is the act of give and take communication. The validate is saying I get you. The collaborate is if this, then what? If this is true, what you're telling me, then what else is true? How are we going to get there together? That's a very fundamental framework to follow in human relationships. It's funny because the, you know, you don't gong, right? Uh, their data, I worked with their data lab for a while. And one of the pieces was like objection handling. I'm like, and we talked, I was like, is there, is there a, a scientific structure to how to handle objection? There's techniques, right? So the, the clarification technique that all these different ones, but is there a structure you can bring somebody through to, to deal with almost any objection?

And quite frankly, there is, and it's what actually you just mapped out there. Like the first is pause, right? Don't ever just jump immediately. Second is clarify. So you ask a question, just make sure I heard you. Third is validate. So let me make sure I heard you're right this. And then if we bring some Chris Voss into this, what you're looking for is that that's right versus you're right, right? Because if you say you're right, that's, Oh, okay. You're smart kid, you know, whatever, but that's right. Yeah. You got them. Yeah. Then you isolate the sales objection. So you're like, okay, so say we were to address that. What other things would we have to pick out? No, no, no. It's just that. Then it's collaborate.

And instead of saying, Hey, do you mind if I give you a suggestion, which comes across as very rude, like I'm smarter than you. It's like, Hey, you want to bounce around some ideas here to see if we can figure something else that'll work for us. And that's the collaborative part. So it's funny that you basically just outline the same thing. Yeah. It's just, it's the same thing, but really what it comes down to is emotional intelligence. If these are soft skills, that's a very easy framework to follow. So if you think about from the entertainment standpoint, I get on stage, you and I are performing together. Um, we get a suggestion from the audience. Let's just say, I'm like, Hey, I need a suggestion of an occupation.

We always get that guy in the audience is his proctologist. And you're like, like, what the fuck? And you, what you don't want to do is shoot them down. Like if you think about standup comedy, standup comedians get really uptight. If you don't laugh at them, sometimes, sometimes they get uptight. If like, that was funny. Um, they don't want to go off their script. They stick to their script improv. You're like proctologist. That is hysterical. Um, sir, would you like us to do the graphic version of this, um, scene that we're about? Like, I don't want to take away from your suggestion. I don't want to put you down. I don't want to put the audience down. Just like I don't want to put down my customers and prospects.

I have to validate like great idea. We've gotten things like stripper, paint stripper. That's what I just heard. Awesome. We are now going to do a scene about paint strippers, right? I didn't take away from them. Or let's just say my partner, um, has an idea and initiates and I don't because I got nothing. That's why we call it having nothing. I'm like up there. Um, I'm too, I'm like, shit, I got nothing. And I just look at my partner and you make eye contact. Like, I hope you got something. And then your partner starts and you're like, that sucks. That's your inside voice. But your job is to actually support their idea. Like I'm not agreeing with their idea. I think it's stupid, but I'm going to, I'm going to support it.

Now I do have the power to take it in another direction without making him look like an asshole where I shot down the idea of like, you know, yeah, we're on the moon. I'm like, yes, we are on the moon. I love, I love this new moon ride at Disney, right? I have, I have the power to take it somewhere else without shooting it down. That's the collaborative piece of it. So what's your take on challenger sale then? So, and, and, and I'll say this from a theater, like, you know, and for those people listening who don't know challenger sale, right? There's two sides of challenger sale. One is lead with insights, which I love, right? Hey, look what's happening in the industry. The other is literally challenging.

And obviously you don't say this, but these are the words that are in your head or like, Hey, you've made this decision once a year. I make it every day. Let me show you how people make good decisions. And so the, the misappropriation of challenger sale is, is it comes across as very arrogant and I've come, I've come across very few people that can do it in a, in a way that doesn't like offend effectively the person. So what you're talking about is a different approach, but I'd love to, I'd love to get your take on, because I think, I think some of challenger is valid, obviously, like, look, like you're not looking at this the right way, but there's an art to getting somebody to realize that.

Yeah. I'm not a fan of challenger at all. Um, but to your point there, there's an art to like, here's the thing, like all the sales thought leaders and trainers out there, we all have a different approach. You and I were talking about that for a little bit before we started this. And in my mind, I tell people I train all the time. I'm like, take something from me, take something from John, take something from an Anthony and Reno, take something from job, like make it your own because nobody is you and you have to know what makes you sell. Um, I like to take the approach of I'm coaching you there. I'm, I'm your advisor. I'm here to help you find the answer for yourself while sprinkling in the, here's some of the experience I've had with this.

It may or may not work for you. That's my approach because people need to feel like, in my opinion, people need to feel like they're in control of the decision that they're making and nobody wants to feel like they're stupid making the wrong decision. And, um, a big thing that I've been writing about is intuition. I, you know, most of, uh, there've been several times throughout my career where I'd have a boss in a performance review say, you know, and this is more when I was in leadership and operations, you make too many decisions based on your gut. And, and I stopped doing it because clearly that's the wrong thing to do. And then as I got older, I'm like, I'm not listening to that anymore because my intuition is usually right.

Now I'm going to back it up with facts and stuff, but you have to trust the sixth sense of your intuition in, in what you're doing, but you need to also foster that. I don't want to take that away from you because you also will have a different perception of, I just had this conversation with someone I coached today about, he's like, do you sell the solution to the problem only? And I'm like, no, because sometimes people don't have a problem or they don't think they have a problem or they don't realize they have a problem, but everybody has dreams. So I'm going to either find the problem to solve or the dream to acquire. And that really requires you getting to know who you're selling to, to do that.

So that's, that's my take. I want to take you on a journey to figure out, figure it out on your own. Yeah. It's funny because that aligns directly with when I tell people, you know, sales, it's not about convincing anybody of anything. Sales is about helping people solve problems or achieve goals. That's it. Exactly. Exactly. Problems aren't big enough and your goals aren't big enough. Why are we having this conversation? Exactly. And, and, you know, I, I kind of fell into sales. Um, I mean, as a business owner, you have to sell. Right. And so I fell into sales with that, but throughout my entire career, people kept pursuing me to, to be a salesperson. And I'm like, no, I don't do that. I don't sell.

And finally, the curiosity was killing me. I'm like, all right, why do you think I should sell for you? And I wanted to break it down because I wanted to understand it. And it was how you talk to people. Um, I feel comfortable with you. Uh, you're funny. Uh, you really listened to me. You're creative in solving problems. And I'm like, Oh, that's sales. Yeah, exactly. Right. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's easy. Right. And then if you take the improv component of it, this is something I talk a lot about. Improvizers, improv performers see failure as a reward because when we fail on stage, people laugh at us. This rewires the brain because the more you fail, the more people laugh, the more you need like another hit of it.

Like sometimes I feel on purpose on stage because I've got nothing, I have nothing brilliant. So I would rather go the opposite extreme fail and have you laugh at me because I'm still going to get the laugh. And so now I'm wired for nothing scares me. Say no to me. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's I love it. So what a couple more things I wanted to get your thoughts on. And one of them is interesting. I read this quote, you said, I'll go into the emotional intelligence, empathizing. And, and I need to hear this story about the CEO who told you not everyone deserves empathy because I, because I talk about equality, you know, equity versus equality. Like, nope, not everybody's equal equity though. Like the way you treat me is the way I'll treat you and vice versa.

Right. So, so talk to me about empathy. Cause I mean, it's such a big thing right now is like, if you can be empathetic, I call it the give a shit factor. It's like, you can think of that person, but why does, why did that CEO tell you that not everyone deserves it? Well, yeah. The, the story behind that story, where did the, where did I, did I write that down somewhere? I think somewhere in my notes, I saw it. I was like, that's cool as shit. Yeah. Um, it's, it's part of my book. Cause it's one of those stories that it's like one of those stories you never forget about, but I haven't told it a lot. Um, this is back when I was, um, an official Vistage speaker. So I was on the Vistage, uh, speaking, you know, circuit, but for COVID and, um, I was doing a lot with emotional intelligence.

So I was doing two talk tracks, one on how to sell like a child, which is a whole nother piece. And then I was doing one called managing the F word and that is feelings. Right. And so primarily male CEOs that I would speak to. And so I'm going through, so I would take the EQ piece of it, and then I would infuse improv activities, which is actually what inspired improvised intelligence. And so I was trying to help them get to this empathy piece because when you can empathize and meet people where they are, they're going to lean into you obviously. And so as I'm talking about the empathy part, this guy goes, not everyone deserves empathy. And I froze and I'm like, Oh my God, this guy's a dick.

Like that was my first reaction. Right. My inside voice. And I'm like, tell your face, Gina, tell your face not to react. And I'm like, cause I have my face, the talks. Right. So I just paused and waited. And, um, I said, tell me more about that. Right. Which is a technique we use in sales all the time. I'm like, tell me more about that situation. And he said, well, you know, some people, I, you, you, you tell them over and over again, how to do something. And they just, they, they just, they never get it. They never get it. And I just don't have empathy for that. And then I paused again and thought about that. I'm like, choose your words, Gina, choose your words. I was going to say, is he using empathy the right way?

Is he talking sympathy? Does he understand what empathy means? I think that was part of it. That was part of it. Um, he could not put himself in the shoes of that person because, you know, this person has the tools in his mind that they needed. And so my response was, you know, this is one thing I learned from, I don't, I want, I don't want to Patrick Lencioni's books. He talks about his phrases, repeat, repeat, repeat. And I never forgot that because when it comes to communication, repeat, repeat, repeat people think about sales, think about marketing. People are not, they're not going to hear the message right away. They're going to hear it when they hear it. They're going to hear it on the channel that resonates with them, but they're, you as a leader have to repeat yourself.

And that's frustrating as a leader, especially if you're a rising leader, like you have to repeat yourself till they hear you. And so my response to him was, well, I think you got two situations at hand. You either need to give them the training and the tools that they need, um, so that they can get it done or you need to let them go. Right. But my bigger question for you is what is your recruiting process look like? Who did you hire? How did you hire this person? Right. So you're, you're going to have to find some level of empathy. One of the best things a leader taught me when I was a new leader, he said, number one, people, you're, it's always gonna be lonely at the top. Number two, when your employees are failing you, you need to ask yourself, did I give them all the tools that they needed to do this?

I'll tell you seven out of 10 times. My answer is I did not. Let's circle that back to, we were talking about these, you know, the ones coming up and grits. Have we given them everything that they need to have grit? And so this is what I always fall back on. If someone failed me in my organization that reports to me, did I give them the tools? And so this is where empathy has to be linked in being able to, I got to put myself in their shoes and see it through their eyes. Yeah. And I think that's so hard for people these days. I think we've lost empathy in a lot of ways as a society. And I think it, and again, if I macro this out, I would say that COVID was probably the worst thing that could have happened to us as a society because it immediately put us all against each other.

Right. It immediately said, now I'm afraid of you and I'm not empathizing with you because I have to protect myself. So I don't give a shit about what you're going through. This is what I'm going through. And so I think we've, we've, and I talk about this a lot with my training, you know, I tell this story, the podcast listener is probably sick of it, but you know, Morgan Ingram, when he worked for me, he said, you know, he came on board and, you know, we started doing cadences and all that stuff and he was doing good and he was getting some decent results, but then it kind of leveled off. And, and he came to me and he's like, John, I'm a little like concerned. He's like, I feel like I'm doing all the right stuff, but I'm not getting the results that I would expect based on what we're doing here.

He's like, what should I, what do I need to change? And I said to him straight up, Morgan, your results aren't going to change until one thing does. And he goes, what? I go, until you start giving a shit. And he goes, what? I go, look, I know I care about your job. I know you care about working here, but until you start genuinely giving a shit about the person you're making that phone call to, or that, that email, instead of thinking of it as a cadence or a number you have to hit or a dial you have to make, as soon as you start thinking of them as a human that has the same problems you and I did that got up, put their pants on, probably had their kids running around crazy stress and everything.

And still, until you start thinking of them that way, the results are going to change, man. And then, then he started, cause so one of the exercises I do with my team was when I had one was, they would have to get their top 25 accounts, right? Based on demographic profile. But then I would say, okay, here's a 25 before you prospect into them. I need you to come back and tell me for every single one of them, why do you personally want to work with that company? I love that. What's the, is it values? Is it what they do? Is it their leadership? Is it, what about that company do you personally want to work with? Cause as you know, as a trainer, there's clients that you work with, you're like, fuck, these guys suck.

You know what I mean? Like I just, I'm just getting through this. But when you find a client that you connect with, that you believe in, that you share values with, it's like magic. It's magic. And, and I think that's so important. And especially for business owners about being aligned with, you don't have to take every client. You don't have to take every prospect. It's hard, especially when you're trying to have cashflow, but you got to give a shit and people are going to feel it. If you don't, and you don't want to treat them, um, like a number or a transaction. I got all kinds of stories for that. Um, right. You have to give a shit. Yeah. Last question. Let's finish up on this humor. Uh, not everybody's funny.

Uh, and some people who are like, I, I put myself in a position where I'm, I'm business funny. I'm not funny, funny. Like you, you put me at a, like at a bar, like hanging out with my friends. I'm not the funny one. You put me up on stage talking about scenarios that happen in sales and business. And I'm hysterical because I've been through some, some crazy shit. And I, I'm more sarcastic humor. I'm not funny humor type of thing. Right. But there are people that are like, Oh, I've heard humor works in sales. So what's the line of like leveraging humor? Cause it could go self bad if you're not. So how do you coach humor or do you coach everybody that they can be, they can use humor throughout the sales process, even if they're not?

Uh, yeah, yes. So the, so that last thing. So I do have a course called selling with humor and we're all wired for it. We're all born with it. Um, we're all funny and right. Well you, it was kind of interesting. You're like, I can't go to a bar to be funny, but I can talk about sales and be funny. Well, so let's break that down. It's about the audience that you serve. Right. So if you know your audience, then it's easy to be funny because you have to know the audience and funny, you know, comes from two things, um, repetition and contrast, right. Repetition is repeating things. Right. But if you really break down repetition, it's about relatability. Like, right. If, if we relate, if I can relate to you, right, you and I could talk all day long about funny sales stories of like, you know, we have similar experiences, not the exact, but parallel, similar experiences that will make us laugh together.

Right. If you know your audience, if you're, you know, even like when I'm working with a lot of SAS companies and, and I can start talking about demos and I can, I can make demo talking about demos funny. I'm not a, I'm not a SAS expert, but I, I know enough to be dangerous. And so this is the one of, one of the things that I would teach my performers is know a little about a lot. When you know a little about a lot, you can find a common thread to pull out and, and relate back to them. And when you start relating back, funny happens. So what, what I do teach is that, um, we don't teach funny because funny happens. Funny is, is a, is an organic process that can happen from relatability and from the contrast contrast being the unexpected, right?

If I were to do a cartwheel right now, you know, you might laugh, especially if I hurt myself because it was unexpected. Right. Right. Right. So there are those two things to do that will make people laugh. Um, and you have it in you, but again, it goes back to, I need to pay attention. I need to listen. I need to watch. I've learned this over time through, through being in shows because I've got to be able to read my audience. I got to know my audience. I'll interview my audience. Um, I teach this to the people who direct shows, right. To my directors. Um, I'll give them that feedback. I'm like, don't ask the audience for a suggestion. Like, uh, can someone suggest an occupation? I said, instead find someone in the audience and go, Hey, what's your name, John, John, what do you do?

Different approach. Cause then John is like, Oh, John wants to talk about himself. John's going to tell me, John's going to give me just enough information for me to run with and to poke fun at. And now we're all laughing at it. So we all have it in us, but as far as like what's appropriate, not appropriate, you know, you just, again, have to be mindful of your audience. What do you think is going to work within that audience? So everyone's got, got it in them. Um, I, I highly recommend wherever you live, go take an improv class, go take an improv class because it becomes a rhythm. And once you practice it over and over again, it gets easier. Quick story. Um, I'm on my second marriage. My husband's on his third.

And when we got married, um, got married while he was working his police officer shift with this tiny little chapel on his lunch, on his lunch break. And we wrote our own vows. And I kind of give him like a Mad Libs to fill out. I'm like, okay, we're going to write three serious and two funny vows about, you know, for each other. And so we get there and we do them. And like, I get through mine and he literally goes, you said two funny ones. All of yours are funny. Why do you like in the middle of our ceremony? Right. And he's a pretty funny guy. And I'm like, I don't know. I, I think it's probably in my delivery. Like they were serious vows delivered in a tone, in a manner, um, that made everybody laugh.

So, so we all have it in us. We just have to hone it. Yeah. And I think you're right. That's what I love about sales. Everybody thinks you need to be the product expert. And I disagree with that. I think you need to know a little bit about a lot, right? So that you can relate. Right. So, because we have to relate to every, it was not just the sale. Like we have to worry about the accounting side of the house from a finance department. We have to worry about legal. So we have to know and be able to relate to every role within the organization. If we want to get anything done. And, and that's always been my superpower is like, it's, if you know a little bit about a lot and then you're curious.

Big time. It's magic because you can, because I, Oh, that's interesting. Like, Oh, you were, your dad was like, Oh, you know, I watched a Goodfellas. Is that one of your favorite movies? Like, fuck you pay me. Like, remember when I was a kid and he was selling those things off the back of the, well, talk to me a little bit about like the, the Chicago mob. Like how deep did that go? Like, and now I, now I'm done. Now you just go, you know what I mean? Exactly. Exactly. That's really what it comes down to is, is be curious and have this mindset. I call it unconditional inclusion. I, I'm going to accept and include you no matter what, even if I don't agree with you. Um, and I want to hear what you have to say.

And when I do that, what I'm doing is creating a safe space for you, right? Which, which goes back to supporting, make other people look good. That's what we teach in our improv classes is this is a safe space. And when we actually literally declare that all of a sudden, everybody kind of frees up and plays. And, and then we, at the, at the end of their six weeks, you know, when we asked for feedback, we get that feedback. This was such a safe place. I felt, I felt safe to be me. And you see like major transformation in people from that. So if, if you got an improv in your town, go take a class. Yeah. The Boston, like I said, the improv asylum is awesome too. Yeah. Uh, there's plenty of courses that people can take there.

So Gina, this was fun. Uh, I think we could keep having this conversation where it goes, but we've got to talk to the audience here about where they can find out more information about you, the book that you're writing, the stuff you're doing, your courses and Jed and all that stuff. If you want to, what, where can you do that? Yeah. All the things I, I lead everybody to GinaTramarco.com because that leads to everywhere that leads to sales gravy. That leads to my courses that leads to the book that leads to the women, your mother warned you about podcast, which is on hiatus right now, but it is coming back. Um, it's going to be interesting. It's coming back in a different way in a couple months.

So, um, it's been in its fifth year, but we took a break to, uh, reinvent it. So GinaTramarco.com is where you'll find everything. Love it. Gina, well, thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Let's, uh, let's, let's keep this, uh, conversation going outside. I would love to. This was so fun talking to you. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, look, everybody, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, you make somebody smile and you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now.

So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also check out my new website, jbarrows.com where you'll find even more ways to engage. There's a ton of free content and you can also get trained from me directly as an individual or for your team. Look, I'm out there selling every day, just like you are.

And I'm doing my best to stay on top of all the latest trends in sales and technology. So if you're looking to level up and you give a shit about this profession of sales, let's connect and make it happen together.