Jim Fielding - Authenticity Is Your Superpower

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And boy, did I have a fun conversation with Jim Fielding on this one. Jim is the author of a book coming out in the near future called All Pride, No Ego, A Queer Executive's Journey to Living and Leading Authentically. And he has had some incredible experiences. His career spans leadership roles at top global brands like Disney, DreamWorks, 20th Century Fox, and he does a ton of charitable work as well. And we got into this one because I've always been interested. Authenticity is, I think, a superpower these days. And it drives me crazy that most people aren't authentic. We live in this Instagram world where everything's perfect, every picture's perfect, and you know that it's not. So we dove into that and we started with his background, right, where he grew up in Toledo, Ohio, you know, Midwest, had a good family, mom and dad.

Dad was a firefighter. And has he evolved in his career? And then also when he came out and how hard that was for him. And that's when he really started living his authentic life. And then we got into some of the basics of really fundamental things that we talked about about how to be an authentic leader. And he's got these five steps to create an inclusive, representative, and equitable society and business. And we went through all five of those that I'm not going to go through now because you'll hear them in there. And then we just talked about everything else related to where we are in today's world and what we need to do and how we can get better. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I do.

More people need to have this conversation out loud. Let's make it happen. Jim Fielding, how are you today? I'm good. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Even though we had to reschedule once for technical difficulties, we got it on the board now. So we're good. I, yes, I apologize for that, but I'm here now. I'm here. Not at all. So Jim, we're going to talk about this authentic leadership. You got a new book coming out called All Pride, No Ego, which I'm really excited to take a look at. But really the core is authentic leadership. But before we get into that and how leaders can make a difference, say how all of us, and it's not just leadership, it's leaders.

Give us a little background to where you're coming from because you got an interesting story and I'm going to ask questions along the way if you don't mind me asking, but growing up in Ohio and we know where you are today is a pretty interesting journey here. Yeah, it's been a securitist journey. Well, I mean, I was born in Toledo, Ohio, a proud Buckeye Midwesterner for sure. Those are my roots. I'm the son of a fireman. In fact, the grandson and great-grandson of a fireman. So, you know, very, you know, middle-class blue-collar upbringing. My mom was an x-ray technician until she had kids and they became a stay-at-home because that's what they did. And, you know, we were a pretty typical nuclear family.

I had one younger sister and, you know, we went to the public elementary school and public high school that my parents bought their house because the schools were good. You remember those days, like when you bought a house because the school district was good. And I, you know, I then graduated and went to Indian University. I consciously, I think, you know, we'll get into a part of what I was going through and exploring. I felt like I had to get farther away from home. And so even though there were great schools nearby, I consciously chose a school that was five or six hours away because I didn't want my parents dropping in unexpectedly. I wanted planned visits and had, you know, an incredible time in Indiana and give back now.

And I'm on the board there of directors for the foundation and have done a lot of scholarship funds there and had an incredible overseas study experience in Copenhagen, Denmark as part of my college education. And then really thought I was going to be an international lawyer. I majored in political science and thought I was going to do that. And, you know, at the end of undergrad, my parents had my younger sister in school and the funds had kind of dried up and I already had student debt. And it was the 80s. And so they were telling us to go out and get practical work experience before we went on to law school or MBA school anyway. And I ended up going into a retail training program and falling in love with it and doing really, really well in retail.

And so in my early, I'd say I had like two halves of my career. The early parts of my career, I was going to be a retailer. I was going to be the vice president of stores or like that's what I was going to be. I was going to do retail and, you know, had some incredible luck in getting recruited by the Gap and working at the Gap in the heyday of the Gap when all of America was wearing khakis and denim and white shirts. And then got recruited to go to Disney in 2001. And that's really where the second half starts, because the ironic thing was I was recruited to go work for the Disney catalog, which was retail, but for Disney. But that's really where I got into media and entertainment and learned, you know, character licensing, licensing and merchandising, as we call it, and spent, you know, over 20 years in Los Angeles working for some of the world's biggest brands, including a stint as president of Disney Store and then CEO of Claire Stores in Chicago, and then going back to DreamWorks and Fox.

And then interestingly, Fox was purchased, acquired by Disney. And so it was like a full circle moment. I knew I wasn't going back to Disney for a variety of reasons, in particular, they weren't going to have a job for me. And I took it as the first time in my life I was laid off. And I was like, oh, my God, like I've laid other people off. Unfortunately, I'd never been laid off. And I was always giving people the advice to use the outplacement service, use the severance time. Like I was always really good about like telling people what to do when they got laid off. And then when I got laid off, I was a mess and, um, but I used all the services and I thought, you know what? I'm going to take the severance.

I'm going to take some time to really see what I want to do next. And then the pandemic came. And so that changed everything. And, you know, in the last four years between the pandemic and getting laid off from, um, Fox, when Disney took over, I've completely pivoted my life. I'm working completely differently than I ever have before. I'm, I'm consulting, partner in a small media company and doing some incredible work with some clients. And then in the middle of it all, uh, was approached about writing a book. And, um, so that's where we are today. Uh, you know, in the middle of the pandemic, I wrote a book. Um, so, uh, yeah, it's, I, I'm a great example of, you know, never close your mind because you don't know what's really coming.

Like, um, I think for any of your listeners, I, I did not have this on a Oprah wish board anywhere. You know, it was a little bit of happenstance and luck, but, um, yeah, I'm, I'm thrilled where I am today. Well, and I want to back up because going to authentic leadership, right. So I think authenticity, it's weird today that, that authenticity, I think is a superpower because I think the world is, is starved for it because it's such a lack of, everybody's trying to be somebody else. Everybody's trying to show on their social media channels how perfect their family is when you know they're a train wreck. Right. So, but I want to back up to your, you know, guiding to where you are and also your upbringing and your authentic self.

So your parents, you know, again, you're in Ohio and, you know, a firefighter as a dad. Um, talk to me a little bit about, about your, and your, and your mom was a stay at home after she had kids. Um, what would they like? And, and, and from a supportive standpoint, like I always like to figure out like, was it a, were they, cause a lot of what the nature nurture, right. There is that nurture factor in who you are. So talk to me a little bit about, if you don't mind, uh, your parents and how they're shaped you. It's so interesting, John, cause you were just talking about your daughter. I mean, I give my parents total credit for number one, teaching me the love of reading. And I tell so many people this, like, I think they stuck a book in the crib.

I honestly do. Like we, I, we're a family of readers. And so, and all kinds of reading, right. And they read to me at night, but also encouraged me to read on my own. And so I have loved reading. And to this day, I end every day reading a book before I go to sleep. Like it's, it was just instilled in both me and my sister from a very early age. I think the other thing they did is even though they were third generation Toledoans and third generation firefighter on my dad's side, he was an all state football player, by the way. I love watching football. I could not play football. I hated it. Same here. I hated it. Um, but, um, they never, I always say that they gave us wings. And from an early age, I knew my future was outside of Toledo.

Like they knew Toledo in the seventies and eighties, when I was growing up was tough. It was the auto industry. We had the oil crisis. You know, Toledo is very tied to Detroit. We're only 45 minutes apart. And there just wasn't, they knew that there was not a future there for me, that I was not going to be a fire. Like my dad never said, oh, you're going to be a fireman or, you know, you're going to work in the factories here. Both my sister and I, we were going to go away to college and we were going to be like our destiny was meant to be somewhere else. And so I give them real credit because we, we had tons of roots in that community, both sets of grandparents, you know, aunts and uncles, like we were rooted in Toledo.

And I, I think from the time I was probably 10 or 11, I really was aware that I was going to go somewhere else, that I was going to build a life somewhere else. Even to the fact when my sister, who's three years younger in school than I am, literally she graduated and four weeks later, dad retired and they moved to Florida. Like, it's like the roots were just Toledo was done. We were done. Right. And I'm still super proud to be from there, but they, they really did give us that, um, that belief in ourselves that, you know, those angel wings. And I think the other thing was we were raised with really strong morals and ethics and whether you call it Midwestern or not, but like we lived and died by the golden rule in my family.

Like that was that. And we had the fieldings don't lie mantra and, um, like you would get more trouble if you did something and they asked you if you did something, you would get in more trouble for lying about it than owning it. And, and so I think there was like accountability built in. And, and the other thing my good old Midwestern father did for me is he taught us, and I write about it in the book. He taught us the difference between what you want and what you need. And the way that he did that was I started working when I was 13. I worked at the gas stock at our boat club and I filled gas and pumped out sewage and all that kind of stuff. And my dad from 13 on kept a ledger because I, of course, I think I was starting to show who I really was.

I wanted Calvin Klein jeans for back to school and my dad was going to pay for Sears, right? Tough skits. So if the Delta now was $20 a pair, it went into this ledger and he loaned me the $20, not without interest. God bless him. Um, and, but he said, I will pay for what you need. You will never need, but you want the Calvin Klein. Um, and by the way, I didn't pay off that ledger until I was 30 years old. Um, but he kept it from 13 to 30, but, but in my mind to this day, my dad sadly has been gone 10 years in my mind to this day, I will go look at a new car and he'll be like, Ooh, well, do you really need the Audi? Like you probably could get the GMC. Like, you know, you need a car and you want the Audi.

And, uh, and so I think I give them such credit because they instilled this work ethic and these morals and ethics in us that, um, I, I carry and I see it in my sister and now I see it in my nieces, uh, my sister's daughters. Like, um, it's, it's real. And again, they love to read and they've done very well in school. Um, you know, they also told us about the value of an education and that education was Hey, I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JV sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, filling the funnel and driving to close. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific skills and different tech like ChatGPT and how to leverage it in the sales process.

And it gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. You get all of this for $420 a year as an individual or $5,000 for teams. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to www.jbarrows.com and click on the individual or team membership and use code podcast, you'll get 20% off. Let's make this happen together. That's big. I love it. So, so when did you with that support structure, when did you end up coming out? Yeah, that's, that's the book, right? Um, I, I, I basically, you know, it's like, it was a two-step process. I officially came out to myself when I was 23 as fully gay. I, I went through college calling myself bisexual, but not really sharing that with many people.

Like I, I was really trying to be heterosexual. Well, if I'm totally honest, I, I struggled. I didn't come out to my parents until I was 26. Um, and of course I think they probably were talking about me, but, um, uh, and, and basically to my sister's credit, she forced it because I had a partner at the time and we just called him the roommate. And my sister was getting married and wanted the roommate to be in the wedding because they were close. And she's like, are you going to tell mom and dad, or am I why your roommate is in my wedding? Right. Like she basically forced my hand. Um, and, and to be honest, it didn't go well. Um, my dad did not talk to me for a year. Uh, he started to write me a lot of letters, um, typewritten because he had horrible handwriting.

It caused issues in my parents' marriage, um, lots of tension. Um, and to talk to my mom, I would have to call, cause it's pre-cell phone, pre-texting. I'd have to call my sister who would then call mom and say, mom, call Jimmy. Uh, because if I called, he wouldn't talk like he'd hang up the phone. And part of what I mean with younger people now, and I write about it in the book is by the time he passed, he could have been parent of the year in PFLAG. Like, so I try to tell young people, and it's not the same for everybody. I'm not cavalier about this. I'm a living example of it gets better. And if you stick with it and can keep in communication and keep educating them that they'll come around.

And it took my dad a while, but he came around. My mom was great from the beginning, but, um, but my dad was, was a challenge. Um, and you know, I, I don't have regret. I tried to live without regrets in my life. John, if I had to do all over again, I would love to go back and do high school and go come out in high school and just deal with it. Even with that age. Yeah. I knew. Or back then. Yeah. I, yeah. I, I, well, it's almost like I wish I was high school, like 2021. And it was like the Love, Simon movie. Right. I wish I, like, I watched the Love, Simon movie and I'm like, of course I want Josh Duhamel and Jennifer Carter as my parents. It's like, they were awesome. Um, but yeah, I just, I, there was just so much angst and so much self-loathing and so much pain, um, you know, that I, I didn't love high school.

I loved college. I did not love high school at all. It was the worst, worst period of my life. I will say I, I can, I, looking back on high school, I can't imagine because, you know, I graduated, when did I graduate? Ninety-four. Yeah. And quite frankly, I don't even think I thought about gay or any of that in high school. And I look back at all the people that I now know were struggling going through high school and trying to fit in. And I just, I just try to, I can't wrap my head around the, the level of, of complexity that that is at that age to try to not be your authentic self and not know how to be that because nobody around you is not necessarily not accepting, but just unknowing and how to react.

Unknowing. And, you know, we talk so much in our community about representation matters. We had no role models. I mean, I graduated from high school in 83. So not only was I struggling with my sexuality, it was the height of the AIDS epidemic, you know, HIV and AIDS. We did not have role models. And everybody says, oh, that sounds so cliche. We didn't have Ellen DeGeneres coming out. We didn't have gay actors. We didn't have gay doctors. We didn't have gay lawyers. We didn't have out people. And so not only were you like, oh my gosh, I'm gay and that's wrong. I'm also going to be miserable because I'm not going to be able to have a career. I'm not going to be able to be, quote, successful because my definition of success being from the Midwest was married with kids and a white picket fence and a Labrador at the yard, right?

Like that's what I was shown. That's what I was told. And I had great grandparents. I mean, you know, grandparents and parents. Like I had these marriages around me, but it was, I was heterosexual was right. Anything that wasn't heterosexual was wrong. And so there's this internalized homophobia. But by the way, I was horribly bullied in junior high and high school, physically, mentally, emotionally. The truth is, John, what they were saying and doing to me was easier than what I was saying to myself. Like I was my worst bully and it took me until I was in my forties, I think, to really understand that what my self-talk was saying and my self-awareness was saying was worse than anybody from the external.

I'm not, you know, I'm not condoning bullying, but I just, what they were doing to me in a weird way, I almost could see myself saying I deserve this, right? And I, um, and I wanted to change. I, I, I, you know, and when my dad finally came around, you know, we finally in my thirties, I think, talked and I said to him, dad, do you really think I was up in heaven? And they gave me a choice of gay versus straight. And I'm like, you know what? I'll do the gay lane. Like, like, I'll, I'll do the hard one. Yeah. Like I'll, I want to be a minority. Like, please, I don't want to be a cisgender, straight, white male. And it took him to understand that because it's that whole nature versus nurture that you talked about.

Right. And I think she really had to internalize that and be like, it's not a choice. And I, and I think that's part of what we're going through right now with the horrible situation in the country. We, it's not a choice, you know, if you are this way and that's what I want to enable. I want people to be able to embrace that authenticity and embrace what's truly in them and create safe environments where they can be their best selves. Um, but it took my dad. He really had to think about that because he was convinced that I had something bad had happened to me that I hadn't told them, or I had an older person that I was in sanctuary with. Like he just could not believe that I was born this way, you know, and, and I said, dad, I've known since I was six years old, seven years old.

I just didn't know what it was, you know? Um, and again, once he learned that he became educated and became an ally for sure. So let's, I think this is a good transition from, for the authenticity piece of, you know, and I'm going to back into it, but I think what depresses me these days a lot, but, but is when somebody does evolve, when somebody does change their opinion, these days, it doesn't seem like that is supported. It's actually, they go back to what you felt. So for instance, I'll use a, you know, an example that I've used before, which is, um, like Matt Damon. Did you ever see the interview with Matt Damon about two or three years ago when he used the F word and put it in context?

So with context, he was having this conversation with his daughter at dinner. And look, I'm from Boston. Unfortunately, we use that word all the time as kids. We didn't even think about it. Totally. Um, same thing with the word retard. Like we said that all the time, but it never registered. And so he, now don't get me wrong, Matt Damon's like 46 years old. He should have known by now. Like I'm like, Matt, I figured that out when I was 15 that I shouldn't say that word. But he was explaining to his daughter and he said, or he was talking and he said the word and his daughter's like, daddy, you can't say that. And then he engaged in a conversation, learns. And then on the interview, he was bringing that up and he got eviscerated.

Yeah, absolutely. Just eviscerated for that. I'm sitting there looking at that being like, what are we doing here? We're a man who has admitted that he learned and evolved and gotten better and has now changed his mind on this word. Right. Why do you think we vilify as opposed to support that as a society? Yeah, no, I think, I think we're, we're so black and white to your point, John. Like, and it's like, I think we're so divided right now as a country and there's all this like woke versus anti-woke and all that kind of stuff. And people need to be allowed to make mistakes. People need to be allowed to grow. People need to be allowed to learn. And I, I, for one applaud. I think that story is a great story.

I applaud because I did watch that interview. And I, but I've also watched Matt Damon's actions since that interview. Right. And I think in America, we are, we are a land of second chances. We are a land of like, none of us is perfect. And I think it's very arrogant. You know, we always say people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I think it's very arrogant for anybody in our community to like cut somebody off. Now, if it's a repeated pattern of behavior that goes on for years, that's a different discussion. But it's interesting. I just wrote an opinion piece about Target because, you know, all this backlash against Target and the pride, the pride, um, what's happened this pride season.

And I, I wrote, I would say almost like a contrarian opinion piece for, for my community where I said, Hey guys, we still need to support Target. We actually should be going into Target and buying the pride product or buying online because they have been allies of ours for over 20 years. And so did they overreact this time? Yeah. Should they have pulled stuff off the floor? Probably not. Should they have moved it to the back of the store? Hmm. No, you know, but they were talking about employee safety. They were talking about the verbal harassment. I mean, people were going into their stores and physically tearing down displays and throwing product on the floor. And I basically wrote and said, similar to your Matt Damon story, like guys, cut them some slack.

They have a pattern of supporting us that we should not take for granted as a community. And these people, and I know my community, I'm going to get filleted about this when it comes out, but you know, these people that are calling for boycotting Target, I think it's really short-sighted and really misinformed because they have years of support for the community and what they do for their LGBTQ employees. They were one of the first on domestic partnership. They were visible and vocal on the right to marry. And if you study your history of Target, okay, this Pride season, not their shining moment, but it's not worth throwing, you know, in my mind, the baby out with the bathwater. And I think your Matt Damon story is similar.

And I think we have to be really, really careful because people want it to be a light switch. And with this news cycle now and social media and TikTok and everything, and there's so much fake news out there. You know, the one for this week, John, is about Starbucks. And I literally, I wrote, yeah, I wrote today. Yeah. And I said, I want to know the facts. Starbucks, tell me the facts. Are you taking down pride decorations or are you not? Because I cannot get a straight story and I'm reading New York Times, Fox News, because I try really hard to read all types of news. Me too. Right. And I can't get the story. And that's why I posted today. I'm like, tell me the story. Like, I don't honestly think Starbucks headquarters sent out a directive and said, take down all the pride directions.

If they did, I'm going to be mad and I'm going to post again. Sure. But I honestly don't think that happened. And, but I want to know the facts. And I think that's the other thing that's lost right now, John, is let's not deal in rumors. Let's not deal in TikTok videos and Instagram posts. Let's talk about the facts and let's have fact-based decisions. And I, I literally said to my team, I said, you guys, let's all look for that. Like, help me. I want to learn about Target today or Starbucks today because I don't, I don't think they did that. If they did, I'll be the first one to post about it. Absolutely. So with that, from a business standpoint, leadership, I think that there's a fear right now and I'm going to come at you from a cis white male, the world, the one that this world is built for in every way, shape and form.

There's a fear right now to even open up the conversation about, well, LGBT or even ask a question. Like I know people who are like, for instance, you and I having this conversation right now, me asking you when you came out in, in the world of business and HR, I can't ask you that. I can't ask you those type of things or else I'm going to get sued. So it's almost like I can, I understand why we're, we're getting more and more divided because if I do try to like understand, but I might say something wrong, ignorant that I don't even know is ignorant because I'm ignorant. Right. So how do you think we address this? Look, I, and we did, I did this one where it was like, we need to talk. And it was about the bro culture in sales.

And it was, it was more specifically about women. Right. And I'm like, we got to figure out how to, how to be allies, how to do all this. But, and when people ask, well, John, what do you do with a blatantly sexist boss? You leave the company. There's nothing you're going to do. There's absolutely nothing you're going to do to change a blatantly sexist boss. Right. Right. I mean, maybe their family can try, but no. So, so I guess where does. Well, you, I mean, it's interesting because you were just role modeling one of the behaviors I talk about. So, you know, if you're, if you're a leader or, and a leader, by the way, you could have one person on your team. You could have a hundred people on your team.

It's not the size of the team. I think what you were just saying, John, as a cisgender straight white man is setting that environment. When I talk about safe environment, I was saying, Hey, I respect, I want to be a better boss. I want to be a better leader. I want to make it safe for you. I want to understand. Guess what? I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to say wrong things. I'm, I'm probably going to offend you sometimes. And, but I want you to feel comfortable to say, Hey, John, when you say X, that makes me feel like Y, because if you teach me and I think that's where we as a community or one of the marginalized communities, by the way, women, black people, Latin people, AAPI, gay, like we, I think it's on us to not just assume that everybody understands us, has, and has the guidebook or anything else.

And I'll be honest, even in my own community, again, boy, your podcast, I bet I get some comments on this. Even within our own, in our own queer community, LGBTQIA plus all those letters, right? We have marginalized communities within the marginalized communities. There are a lot of gay men, particularly of my generation that do not fully understand the trans community, right? And can say things as a gay man that offends the trans community. But again, if we're not willing to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, that was wrong. And here's why. If we're not willing, no one is perfect. Again, I go back to that. No one is perfect. And I've even struggled as a 58 year old gay man on pronouns because it's, I, and I literally have to remind myself when I'm talking to somebody, they, them, they, them, they, them, like I'm saying it in my head because I don't want to offend them.

And I've really had to understand the pronoun, like how that hurts and, and things like that. But I, I think what leaders do to your, to your point, and you know, I talk about it is share your vulnerability, share your, your insecurities with it right up front, because then you're putting, you're putting yourself on equal ground with them. And you're saying, I actually want you to educate me and I want to be a better manager. I want to be a better leader. I want you to bring the best of you every day. And so I want to help create the environment that allows that. And, you know, I, I've, I've been getting called a lot lately about like, what can I do during pride and stuff? And, and I say to people, whether you work virtually hybrid or in person, you can pull your team together and just have a conversation about what pride month means to you.

And by starting out as a leader and saying, Hey, I'm a cisgender straight white guy, but I want to create a safe environment. You are setting the tone. And again, you can't say, Hey, you want to tell about your coming out story. Right. But I even said, I, I have another piece I wrote lately. And I said, I almost like the term inviting in rather than coming out, because if I invite you into my story, you just asked me, I, I could have chosen not to answer. Right. But I invited you into my story because you made me feel safe. Well, that to me is what we need to do is, is invite people to share their stories. And, um, especially people from marginalized communities, not just the queer community, all marginalized communities.

I don't understand black female experience in the United States, but I've managed black females for 30 years. I've had to learn, right? I've had to, I've had to ask questions. I'm sure I've made mistakes. I'm sure I've said things incorrectly. But again, by just being real and being vulnerable, that's that authenticity word, word, you create an environment where you encourage that discussion and it's safe to say that. If you're the kind of boss that doesn't encourage that, that's where you're going to have turnover or, um, uh, you know, unmotivated employees who are scared to be their best because there doesn't look like it's safe to be their best. Yeah. And I think that's the, the, the leadership, I think it is absolutely incumbent upon them to set the stage of openness, right?

But it is hard. It is, Hey, I want to move. I have an open door policy. You hear that all the time. I have an open door policy, right? Nobody ever comes in. Totally. So, so you have to be proactive, but I also want to flip it on the other side to, to help, uh, individuals who are marginalized approach leadership who might be, and I'm going to, again, I'm going to put myself into the equation of, look, I go through my life with a totally different perspective than everybody else because of my lens, right? Because I mean, I have this, my dad passed away, um, a couple of years ago and I came across his, his desk and he was, there was a handwritten note on his desk that he had pinned up and it said, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

Oh, that's beautiful. And to me, that was such a powerful thing because it kind of woke me up personally to say, you know, cause I've always been like, well, I earned, you know, I, I actually, I'm on a little bit of a tirade here to change the word privilege to advantaged because when you tell me I'm privileged, my defenses immediately go up and I'm like, I worked my ass off. Don't tell me I didn't earn this. Totally. But there's no question that being a white male, white, straight male in this world is an advantage. Yes. And so I've recognized that I've had to learn and recognize along the way. And I've had people thankfully in my life who have been able to feel comfortable pulling me aside and be like, dude, you can't do that.

You can't see that. Like that, but how, so how do you, let's, let's paint the boardroom picture, right? You're in a sales meeting and there's, there's your VP of sales and, you know, also bro. And, you know, Hey, we get that list. And there's a couple of things that make you make you uncomfortable, but they're not to the point where it's like overly, again, like the overt sexism, the overt, right? How do you suggest in today's climate, a rep who is feeling marginalized and has small things that could be looked at as, uh, cause that was the one I think I learned by the way I'm with the, we need to talk. It wasn't the overt stuff. It was the micro stuff. Microaggressions. Right. I was going to say micro, you're talking about microaggressions.

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you approach, how do you approach a leader who seemingly isn't like totally, but obviously as, as their view, it's like your racist grandmother, like how are you going to ever change your racist grandmother? Well, how do you approach her? Because that's when she grew up. So what are some tactics or approaches that you would say would, would be not accusatory, but coming to a guy like me saying, John, you know, I was just, can I, you know, is it, can I grab lunch? Can I go to your office? Can I, can I talk to you? And then how do you introduce that without me going immediately being defensive and be like, dude, I, oh my God, I didn't mean that. Like, what are you attacking me?

Like, yeah, it's, listen, it takes, it takes strength. There's no doubt about it. And I, I would say, you know, to the marginalized employee or the employee, the employee that was impacted by those comments, first off, look around the room and see where your allies are, right? Because there's usually somebody else who's somewhere on the spectrum of feeling that same way. And, um, and I, again, I can't think it goes back to, you have to be strong, but go in and have the fact-based discussion, especially if you're a boss that says, I have an open door policy. Okay. Make the appointment, like go through the open door, ask for coffee, ask, can I have 15 minutes of your time? I just want to talk about something personal with you and then have the fact-based discussion of when you say this, this is how it makes me feel.

When you do this, this is why it's wrong. And, and you said something earlier. And again, I'm not cavalier about this. You may have to do it a couple of times. If you're the impacted employee, if it doesn't get better, then you have to start controlling the controllable and make some decisions in your life. And if you are, if it's become an inhospitable or untenable work situation, you either can look, excuse me, the size of the company, can I transfer somewhere else? Is there another role I can go to? Or do I live in a city where there's other opportunities? You know, maybe I just need to leave the company. It's not the right culture for me because you're not going to change an entire culture.

You're not going to change. People do change. I said that to you earlier, but culture change and people change take a long time. So if you don't have the patience and the perseverance to kind of push through it, I would, and I have suggested people to, you know, look elsewhere, look for a different type of culture. Now, if you're in a small town and it's the only job you have and you have to put, you know, food on the table, that's, that's a different discussion. But I think you still have to keep trying because not everybody is going to change, but I do think people, I do think people change and I do think people can learn. And I think the reality is for, to your point, listen, when I first enter a room until I talk or tell my story, I'm a white man.

Like the systems are set up for me and, um, it's only, I become marginalized when I tell you that I'm a gay white man. Right. And, um, I, I think the systems are set up for us. But the other thing is, if you are a white man, straight white man in particular that only wants to manage straight white men. Good luck because the way the society is changing, you're not going to have a very big pool. Like the pool is shrinking and you, that's why we talk about DI and all this kind of stuff. It's the reality of what society looks like now. When I, when I go to Indian university for my board meetings, I happened to be there last week and you start looking around what the college campus looks like versus what even our boardroom looks like as the foundation board of directors.

We talk about it. I'm like, we don't look like the students that we serve. Have you seen the people that go to Indian university, color, race, gender, sexual identity, like it's all over the place. And, and, and if, and if you're threatened by that as a, as a white man, you need to get over it and you need to educate yourself because that change is coming. And, and, and we're not even, white men aren't even the majority in the country anymore. White women are, I mean, women are the majority. Um, so I, but I do. I do think when you are the quote, marginalized employee, it is incumbent upon you to own some of it. Like you can't just sit there and say, they won't change. This is an obstinable. If you don't speak up and ask and search out other resources, then you're not, you have to own it too.

It's a two way street. Yeah. All right. Quick break to tell you about one of my favorite podcasts on the HubSpot podcast network, which is the surf and sales podcast hosted by my good friends, Richard Harris and Scott Lease. First of all, these two are personal friends of mine and they are two of the most authentic, smart, intelligent, knowledgeable people that I've ever come across as it relates to sales. And their podcast is fantastic. There's no fluff in this podcast. If you like my podcast, you're going to love theirs because they get right down to it. Real world stuff. And it's not just about sales. It's about mental health. It's about being an entrepreneur, growing your business, all sorts of different things that round out the business professional and the person.

So I highly recommend checking out their podcast and listening to some of their new episodes. They got one with Anthony Natoli, who talks about getting off the sidelines and engaging and building your own personal brands and the right mindset for starting to build your brand. So if you're all talking about internal, you know, personal brands and thinking about that journey, you're going to want to check out that episode. And there's a whole bunch of others that I recommend as well. So check them out. Let me know what you think. Let's make it happen. And I think that's what I'm hoping for these days is that, and that's where we, you know, the divide. It's like, oh, well, he's a jerk because he said that and not giving him a chance or she a chance to educate, right?

On why that was bad. Why that person, why I might've felt that way based on what you did. And then look, if I tell you to go piss off, this is my world and you live in it type of thing, then again, go find another thing to do. Yeah. I mean, there's a war for talent right now. I've said this over and over again. I mean, there are jobs out there and I think as an employer, you have to be really, really careful about being, you know, you know, arrogant about, well, everybody wants to work for me. I think it's a, it's a very different age. So you get five steps to create a more inclusive work environment. And this isn't a book, right? It's the blueprint of the book to a certain degree. One of them we already hit on, which is the embrace your authentic self.

I do want to stop on that for a minute though, to talk about why do you think it is so hard for anybody right now to be their authentic self? And why do you think we are in such a look at me, look at how perfect outcome world we are, knowing we all have warts? Yeah. I mean, I, I think you hit on it earlier. Like I'm a huge lover of technology. You know, I'm, I fully on board with technology and social media and everything. I'm a marketer, I'm a brander. And so I embrace it, but I think we've created a situation, not only in America, in many societies, in the advanced world, let's say the first world where we've got this insane amount of FOMO. We've got this insane amount of keeping up with the Joneses.

And we have this insane amount of Facebook fake and Instagram fake. And, and, and to your point, like I, I get some of these posts and I love you, my friends that are listening to this, but I'm like, there's no way they're effing, that effing happy. Right. Like the seven of them, they got one good picture of the seven of them. Right. And, and, you know, every person, every family has challenges and insecurities and differences. I don't care if you are the six foot five white cisgender star of the quarterback, you know, quarterback of the college, you know, like you, everybody has issues. Everybody has insecurities. And I think this selfie, you know, we're like living facades basically is what I'm saying.

And I think we have to get back to the core of owning your story. Everybody has a story and no one is perfect. And we all have strengths and we all have developmental opportunities. And, and I, I think unfortunately with the growth of this, you know, constant 24 seven feedback, you know, just this loop that we're in, these algorithms, um, we're constantly told we're not pretty enough. We're not smart enough. We're not rich enough. We're not, uh, in, you know, we're not adventurous and not like our trips aren't good enough. Right. Like think about people's trip. Like, I'm like, Oh my God, that was the most amazing trip. They're diving in waterfalls in Costa Rica and they're, you know, they're, they're swimming with, you know, endangered sea turtles and my trips look boring.

I sat on the beach and read a book. Like I'm not doing enough. Or these people who are like, I, you know, I went on vacation and I cleaned 20 beaches in Indonesia. Like, you know, I went on vacation and slept, right? Like I'm, I'm not worthy of your vacation. Right. So, but it's, you know, of course you want to keep up with people, but it's, it's almost over stimuli, right? It's, it's almost too immediate and it's so in your face. Um, and I also worry even about spontaneity. I'll give you, I'll give you a great example of my, what's going on in my own life right now. I have an amazing partner, Joe, and he's never been to Paris before. And I've been to Paris a lot. Thank God. One of my favorites is where I'm so excited to take him there.

It's his birthday this year. I'm taking him at the end of October to Paris. It is so hysterical because he's of a different generation than I am. He's younger than I am. And he is like literally on Tik TOK and Instagram now, like making a list of stuff to do in Paris. And I'm like, okay, can I just tell you 58 year old Jim is going to tell you, love you to death, Joe. We, some days we're going to wake up in the morning, we're going to go get a baguette and a coffee and we're going to walk around Paris and see what happens. We are not going to plan every moment because Sally, Joe gave us the seven perfect days in Paris guide that we don't even know Sally, Joe, right? Like, I'm like, where is spontaneity?

Where is, let's see what happens. Where is sitting at a sidewalk cafe and just people watching or going to a museum and just wandering around? Like, that's the other thing that's happened is we're so scheduled and we're so, um, oh my God, I have to go see that movie or I have to read that book or I have to watch that TV show because everybody told me to, um, that we've, we've lost just wonder and spontaneity. Um, everything is so plan, plan, plan. Um, and I'm a planner, don't get me wrong, but I, I, I literally said to him, we'll plan a couple of days, put everything on the to-do list you want, but then there's other days where I'm telling you we're not planning a thing. Yeah. And I think that's the problem that the author is like, and I, I think I've always been authentic, but I didn't realize, you know, cause for me at lying is a waste of time.

I'm also terrible at it. So that's why I couldn't get away with it. Yeah, I can't play poker. I have the worst face. Oh, I'm disastrous. So, uh, so I think it takes a while to understand. It's almost like, you know, find your passion. People say, follow your passion. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Do not follow your passion when you're 15, 16, 20 years old. Like you don't know what your passion is yet. You don't know yet. You're not fully formed. Right. Figure it out and then follow it. But you got to figure it out first. You got to try a bunch of things. Yeah. Stay open. What's that? I always say stay open. Yeah. Like, and, and so, and, and, you know, the, the next point is consistently curious and I love curiosity and you said you're a light, you love reading books and a learner.

So as a leader, how, how can you be curious without being ignorant? Right. Cause this is like, and I'll say this because a lot of my, you know, black lives matter, all that. Right. A lot of my black friends, you know, they get so pissed off when something like that happens and then all their white friends call and say, what can I do? And they're like, Google it, dipshit. Like, like literally, why are you asking your only black friend what to do here? Like, go figure it out on your own. So how can, how can you kind of be curious, but also with context? Right. So it's not like, I'm just like, Hey Jim, like, what do I do here? Like, I don't want to be, you know, how do you do that as a leader? Or how do you think about doing that?

Yeah. I mean, I, I think I, again, I think it's, it's a lot of what we've talked about already. It's staying open. I mean, first off, there is a ton of information at our fingertips right now, between news feeds and, and you can curate a news feed on your phone. And, you know, there, there is the information super high way is there. Um, I also think it's about putting yourself in situations that maybe haven't done before. I mean, going to, even when you live in the same town for 20 years, go to a different restaurant, go to a different museum, go see a different play, like just put yourself in a different environment because you're going to learn and feel different just by doing that. And, you know, I think a lot of it is just the attitude of, again, it kind of goes back to the humility and not being arrogant.

You're just never done, right? Like, I never want to look and say, oh my God, I've learned it all. I know it all. I'm done. Because to me, that's probably when it's time to leave this earth then. Right. And, and, and I don't, I don't want to be there. And I say that all the time as I age and I'm definitely aging. Um, the biggest thing I want is to still be vital. I want my brain like, and, and my mom, you know, I write in the book, my mom is an early dementia and there's so much that comes with that. And I look at her and a lot of what comes with it is me being super selfish. I'm like, oh my God, I don't want this. I do not, I don't want to lose my brain. I don't want to lose that curiosity.

I don't want to lose the joy of reading. I, I, I want to keep learning. I want to keep learning new technology. I want to learn about new artists. I want to listen to new music. And I, I want to keep growing until the very end. Um, and I think as a leader, it's again, like you, you have to look at your own behavior and, and, um, and ask questions. I mean, I think sometimes as leaders, we always think we have to have all the answers. Right. And I, part of what my, my managed philosophy is based on two heads are better than one. And I would go into meetings and be like, I don't know how to fix this. What do you guys think? Like, okay, that's a problem, but I want to hear what you think. Or we're going to figure it out, but give me options.

The other thing I used to say as a leader is don't just come to my open door policy and tell me what's wrong. Come with a solution. Like you can come with the problem, but I want to hear a solution from you. Now I might have a different solution or a different suggestion, but do not just come and dump the monkey on my back and say, this client is unhappy or this shit is late or whatever, like come with a solution because by doing that, you instantly are getting into a discussion and you are, um, debating healthily pros and cons and, and I, anybody that's worked for me, I, I'm sure if you called that, they would say he was always asking me, what did I think? Because I, of course I've been in this business almost 40 years.

I have been around the block and it's cyclical and, excuse me, I can kind of predict some things, but at the same time with the pace of change in technology, the pace of change and consumer behavior, I don't have all the answers. And I always say, you're in the same situation, John. I tell people all the time, hire people that scare you, that are smarter than you, especially younger people now. I mean, there's nothing scares me more than like a smart 25 year old in social media where I'm like, what, what are you like, what do you teach me? And, and, um, the digital marketing, uh, team that I'm working with on the book all in their late twenties, early thirties, they literally, sometimes I'm like, are you speaking Russian?

Like, I don't know what you're asking me to do, but I've learned, I've learned. And they tell me what to do. I'm coachable. And they're like, we need you to write this post and do this over here. And we're, this is how we're going to build a newsletter. And I'm like, okay, teach me, teach me. Awesome. Yeah. And, and I think that's, you know, being that open, I think the curiosity, again, probably if I was born with one thing, it'd be the curiosity. That's actually why I do my podcast, right? Cause I tell people like, I don't, I don't learn by reading. I don't learn by watch. I learn by asking people who are smarter than me. Yeah. And listening. I'm genuinely curious and be like, all right, tell me more about that.

Give me an example. Super smart. And I ended up stepping on landmines sometimes, but because I'm curious, genuinely curious, not just asking questions, just asking questions, but genuinely trying to seek the answer, then people give me a little bit more of the benefit of the doubt. No, but you immediately, when we started, made it a safe environment. And I think that's the name of the gate, right? You're the leader of this situation we're in right now. I'm following you, but because you made it safe for me, I'm willing to open up to you and then share my own vulnerabilities. And I, that's to me, what authentic leadership is about is, um, you know, you can call it servant leadership. You can call it situational leadership.

There's lots of different terms. There's lots of different books that have been written on, written on this. But, but to me, it just also comes down to do people, when they're at work with you, are they bringing the best version of themselves to work? That's in a nutshell to me, what authentic leadership is. And that means all their warts, all their strengths, all their weaknesses, all their quirks, all the things that makes them unique. I want it all. I, I never wanted, like, if I had a team of 50 of me, we'd drive each other crazy. Like we'd be like a bunch of type a control freak overachievers. We wouldn't get anything done, right? Like we never, we get anything done. I love introverts. I'm an extrovert.

Everybody, you know, I remember early in my career, people be like, Jim really likes the cheerleader type. Jim really like, I'm like, sure. I like that. But guess what? Look at some of the best people on my team. They're introverts. They barely say anything, but I respect their talent. And I don't need, I don't need fake. I don't need cheerleaders. I have plenty of those, right? And I think when you're building teams, again, whether the team is two, 200, 2000, you don't want clones. You want the mix. It's the stew and the mix of all those different points of views and all those different skills and talents that makes it fun. And honestly, I think makes you successful because if you have a team that looks like that, that's by the way, what your consumer looks like or your customer looks like, I don't care if you're in a B2B, if you're in a B2C business, if you're, you know, if you're in academia, I think you have to look like your community, you know?

Awesome. Well, Jim, I can keep going on this. I got so many other questions on the book and everything else, but we're coming up on the hour here. Sure. I want you to, you know, talk, tell the audience where they can find out more information, but also let's start with the why on the book right now, right? Because we had talked about that before we started recording. I think that's important. I want you to kind of highlight to the audience why you wrote this and why it's coming out right now and why you are now, you know, have a heightened sense of urgency to get this message out there. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, unfortunately for marginalized communities, but particularly queer communities in America right now, because of the divisiveness in our country and the woke, anti-woke movements were under attack.

And, you know, the number of anti-LGBTQ led amount of legislation locally, at the state level, nationally, you know, I think it started, honestly, with the overturning of Roe versus Wade and what that did to women's rights. Um, I think the black communities under attack, there's the growth in anti-Semitism, like I'm seeing it everywhere. And, and I think we're entering an election cycle and you, as you and I were talking about before we went on the air, I think it's only going to make it worse. And so I felt like I had to push myself and my publishers been great to get this book out faster, honestly, than we planned so that I could get the book in people's hands and then use this as a platform to have the discussion with people like you, um, to, to amplify our stories.

And in a weird way, and I'm not saying I'm in charge of everything, but help protect the community. And what you and I were talking about before we started was if I can help one person with something from the book, like I'm really looking at and small incremental amounts of change and like those ripples in the water, I'm not, I'm not asking to be on a stage in front of 10,000 people and be championing a movement. That's not what I want. I want small incremental amounts of change. And, um, I just think my sense of urgency is up because of reading the news every day and what's happening, uh, in education and what's happening in book banning. Um, again, a lifelong reader to be reading about these book bans and some of the books that are being banned, I think are the classics, like to kill a mockingbird for God's sakes.

Like, um, like that, like, I just feel the narrative has to be more balanced, John. And I think shows like yours allow us to happen that the, the story can't only be coming from the people who are doing the oppressing and there is a ton of narrative right now. That's very anti our community where they're trying to tell our stories. And I'm like, no, we tell our stories and I will listen to you because I'm an American. I believe in the freedom of speech and you were entitled to your opinion, but guess what? So am I. And so you're going to listen to me too. And I, I really need our community. I think we need to share our stories, push ourselves out there again, make ourselves vulnerable. John, I'll be honest with you that, you know, the title of the book, all pride, no ego, a queer executive's journey to living and leading authentically.

There are some bookstores in America that will not carry the book because queer is on the title. And I never waver from taking queer off the cover of this book. I also never thought that would happen. It's 2023. And when that happens, it honestly just makes me, makes like steals my spine to say, we've got to go out and try. And, um, they can't ban Amazon, right? They can't like, there's still ways to get this book. And, uh, I, I, I told you before we started it's 2023, but some days I wake up and I'm like, is it 1973? Is it 1963? Like we've gone so far backwards so quickly. And if how I want to spend my vitality and, and I love my job, I still love my full-time job and I'd love doing what I'm doing, but it's what I'm doing in my quote spare time and my off time is this, this has become more than a book to me.

It's become a platform and, um, I need to, I need to push. Well, hopefully, uh, hopefully my little platform here will help. Oh, I love it. You're a huge part of the change. I mean, you're an ally and we need allies. We, we cannot do this alone. No, I think all of us, I think the one thing that, that I woke up and I'll again, tie it to the black lives matter was it was blatantly apparent to me, it's no longer acceptable to sit on the sidelines. You can't, you, you, you're, you gotta be in this fight and it's no longer okay to say as a white male, like, well, I'm not racist. So it's like, I'm not part of the problem. Well, you are actually, you're not, I'm not a bigot because I, you know, I have gay friends.

Like you actually are part of the problem because if you're not trying to help the, the using your privilege, and I'm going to go back to that word. If you are not using your privilege. Yeah. Your advantage to your point. Yes. Yeah. To your advantage to help other people who aren't as advantaged as you, then, you know, you live in a really selfish world and, uh, that's not the world I want to live in. And you, and you have a daughter. We talked about your daughter. I think a lot about, I'm doing it for my 20 and 23 year old nieces. And the kids that are coming behind us, because I want the world to be better for them. And I, I want, I, I, I'm not saying it's going to be utopia. I think we're always going to be challenged and there's always going to be debate.

That's America. But, but the debate can be healthy debate and it can be respectful debate. And it, it doesn't have to be life threatening and so harmful and so hate filled. Um, and so honestly uninformed. Yeah. It, it, it's so much of this rhetoric is coming from a, a, a campaign of misinformation, um, that we have to, we have to present the alternative narrative. I think that's on all of us, particularly me, because I have to use my privilege, my advantage. I've had a great career. I have a book that's getting published. I have this platform. I can't just be like, oh, great. I wrote a book. I'm done. Right. Like it's, I, I really have felt it and it's, um, and it's really bad in the last couple of months that it's, it kicked me in the butt a little bit.

Cool. Well, Jim, I look, I'd appreciate it so much. Yeah. It's been an absolute pleasure. And so you can pre-order the book now, right? On Amazon. Pre-order the book now, Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble, All Pride, No Ego, easy to search your local bookstores too. And, uh, website is www.allpridenoego.com, which also has a link. Um, you can find me. Awesome. Well, Jim, thanks again so much for coming on, man. Thank you, John. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. And everybody else listening, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully this one got you to think a little bit different and makes you a little bit more proactive, make no small incremental changes. Sit down with that cousin at, or that uncle at your next family gathering and don't be accusatory, ask questions, be curious.

And like I say, always at the end of all these podcasts and now more than ever go out, no matter how bad your day is or how bad you think it's going, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause, uh, if you make somebody smile, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network.

Also check out my new website at www.johnm.com where you'll find even more ways to engage. There's a ton of free content and you can also get trained from me directly as an individual or for your team. Look, I'm out there selling every day, just like you are, and I'm doing my best to stay on top of all the latest trends and technology. So if you're looking to level up and you give a shit about this profession of sales, let's connect and let's make this happen together.