Karen Kelly: Hypothesis Selling and Creating Safe Spaces for Buyers

What I see when I do email reviews, I'm like, I don't even know what your ask is here. You're just barfing information. There's no white space to someone who doesn't know who you are. You are making it very easy for them to delete it. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Today's conversation is with Karen Kelly. Karen is a sales strategist, speaker, and founder of K2 Performance Consulting. She helps big companies sell with confidence, clarity, and purpose. So as usual, we had a lot to talk about.

Actually, it was on her podcast about five or six years ago. We were trying to figure that out before COVID. Sounds like time's a blur since then, but super fun conversation, super tactical. We hit on Always's origin story and her parents are actually immigrants. And I've gotten really interested in why people uproot their entire family and move and what drove that and how that impacted the children. And so she talked a lot about that, about how grit and integrity were early, early stages for her. And then she got into biology, which I thought was interesting, but talked a lot about how the education in biology prepped her for sales, specifically related to hypothesis selling. And so we got into how these days, you know, qualifying people, you need to come with a perspective and how important that is.

And then we talked about coaching. A big part of this conversation was about coaching and helping reps get to that next level and finding and catching that sales groove that I'm always trying to figure out. You'll hear the Tommy Boy reference here where there's that moment in every single rep's life where they just wake up and it's a little bit easier. And I'm searching for ways to expedite that, but I'm not 100% sure you can. So we unpacked that a little bit, got into a little bit of the Mel Robbins, let them and how you need to really, you know, the self-awareness and the confidence comes from really preparation and everything else. And what other people think of you, there's really not much you can do to control that.

So we have to let that go. And then one of the things she talks about was how do you make the client feel safe with you? And she talked about how she puts herself in a position to let the client know, I'm not trying to ultimately sell you on anything. I'm just trying to help. And there's a few tactics that she uses to do that. So finishing up, we did talk about women in sales. She's a huge advocate. She does a lot of work with women in sales. And as you all know, I try to do everything I can to support women in sales because I think women are some of the most, the best sales professionals I've ever come across. But we need to open up the doors here a little bit as males to let them in. So anyways, I really enjoyed this conversation.

Hopefully you enjoyed it as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Karen Kelly, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. How are you doing today? I'm great. Thanks, John. Thanks for coming on. I've been looking forward to the conversation. I know we've both been on a similar journey through our careers as I was looking through your background and doing what you're doing. But and, you know, a lot of this is going to talk about authenticity, about how to really stand out in today's world and then all the noise and everything else and, you know, coaching and all these one things we'll unpack. But I always like to understand the origin stories, not the LinkedIn story that we can all look at on your profile.

But growing up, parents, influence you had, where, right? Because I always am curious where you get that entrepreneurial bug, the sales bug. Is it nature, nurture? So talk to us through like where you grew up and how you got to where and then we'll get into college and everything else, too. Yeah, sure. I love the origin story because I think it I think even from when you're sharing it, there's an awareness that comes from you and you're like, oh, wow, those two. That's that makes sense. And that's what drives that. Yeah. So I am one of four girls born outside of Toronto, Canada. My parents are both immigrants. They immigrated from Ireland to Canada. They got married and then they immigrated three days later.

So it was like a celebration and a sadness for my mom at the same time. And so growing out with four kids, which seems like a big family, but, you know, compared to Irish families, it's not. But we didn't have a lot. You know, we had a lot of love. But, you know, the first two, my sister and I are three years apart and we just, you know, it was kind of survival of the fittest. We didn't know any different. We had a lot of love from our parents. And then when the second two came in, they had they had a different upbringing, kind of like we paved the way we did. But we understood what scarcity meant and kind of what being poor was. And the other two are wearing name brand stuff like we related.

But, you know, when I look back and even I always try to puzzle, put the puzzle pieces together as a week, what brought me to where I am today? And a lot of it is we were raised, my father was just really integrity was a big thing about doing the right thing and being honest. And he just raised us to be good people, you know, and he really did model that behavior. He came here. He didn't I think he had five hundred dollars in his pocket and he just worked. He did whatever he needed to do. He was educated. He was a physicist, but he joined the police to get, you know, benefits for his kids and things like that. So they just really showed us what hard work was and that ethic that, you know, it's kind of sometimes it's too much because I think as an immigrant, as new to a country, you have to do whatever you need to to make ends meet.

And you're having kid after kid, you know, you had to do it. So we saw what it was like to, you know, tag team. My mom was working night shifts as a nurse and my dad would get us off in the morning to school, you know, but we had a pretty normal upbringing. But I think there was this as we grew older, there was this one upmanship and this competitiveness. And even around, you know, the people we hung out with, like I was I was on a run this morning. I was thinking about what am I going to share here? And I just thought, like, where did I get that competitiveness? And it was honestly, you had to hold your own at the dinner table because if you didn't have the one liner, someone's coming out for the right or the left and they're going to make fun of you.

And even I just thought that's what probably helped me develop a thick shell from sales because I'm like, I get made fun of. Oh, well, I don't because I'm like ready there with the zinger. And then even the circle of friends I hung out with, like we had that dry, sarcastic sense of humor. But it was also the 80s when people were just it was so different. Like, you know, it was when you went out for school for the morning, it wasn't have a good day. It was like, like protect yourself, like come home alive. Make sure you get home. Totally. Make sure you get home. And, you know, so I just think that resilience was brought into us. But it was also like we were kind of raised like Navy SEALs a little bit, like very doing, you know, and not that there wasn't a lot of love, but we didn't show.

It wasn't said a lot. So there wasn't a lot of sharing of emotions and feelings. And I think also that's why when I look back, like I was very driven, very left brain, very masculine energy because the other side was deemed as weakness, you know, and I don't agree with that. You know, as a child, I just went through it. But over my adult years, I really had to work on that and bring that feminine energy in and soften myself because I was like it served me well in business. But then it's like, gosh, you gotta relax a bit and you gotta like, who are you really under there? And you kind of don't know. And so, you know, we had a normal childhood, four girls, lots of sports. I'll stop there, see what you want to unpack.

Quick question, back up a little bit on why did your parents immigrate? Well, without getting into the politics, a lot of troubles going on in Ireland and my dad just didn't want to be any part of it. So he just said, I'm out. Nice. Because I'm always like wondering like what forces or drives somebody to literally pick up their entire life in the country they were born in and move to a completely new one with no idea what's going to happen, no job, nothing. It's always fascinating to me. Yeah. And you know what? They both like, he's a family of 11 and my mom's nine and they're the only ones that left. So like they were leaving a lot behind. But the irony is my husband's from Ireland and he did the same thing.

No kidding. Yeah. You're interesting. Yeah. I recruit. Yeah, there you go. So then you went to Western University and you went into biology. So first of all, what made that decision? And you just wrote a post, I think about five or six days ago on how that biology kind of put you, oddly set you up for success with sales in a lot of ways in business. So first of all, why did you choose biology and second of all, how did that major really shape a lot of your approaches today or, or kind of your sales approach? Yeah. Yeah. You did your homework. Good job. I, I, again, on my run today, running is a great way of just bringing, you know, topics to the surface. But I was thinking about all this and when I was in grade eight, I did a paper and grade eight, you're 30, right?

And I did a paper on, I think it was the heart and the cardiovascular system and something about it just awakened me. And I remember just getting this real conviction and compassion. Like I want to learn more about this. And I just really aligned all to, to healthcare and the body after that, I wanted to be a doctor. And so when I went to Western, I was pre-med. So I took all health sciences courses and, um, really wanted to help people. Um, but I love that like academic part of it, like just learning, like always learning. And the body is so complex and just understanding when you do this, like the, you know, the impact downstream. And so I was really curious, um, about that. And I, I finished my degree, I long story, I won't go there, but I didn't end up going to med school.

I chose a different path, but you know, that post, what it taught me. And again, reflection in retrospect is so important. And it just, you know, when you, sometimes in the moment, you don't know, I didn't know I was going to be in sales at the time. Right. But when I draw a snap line back at that post I shared was like about hypothesis, like you're doing a lab. And first of all, 20% of your mark was lab. So for me, I'm like, boom, like, even if you look at an RFP, I'm like, I'm going to get all 20 of those points. And how can I control that process? I'm going to go befriend this person. I'm going to find out the criteria. So all these things in sales that you have no idea that they're going to, you know, they're going to serve you well later.

And then, you know, you think about the hypothesis and everything has to track back to it. You're always trying to prove it, but you're still open to things going wrong. But then being curious, why did that go wrong? If I change this, what's the impact there? And like, that is what sales is, you know, and not in a lab. But I think then you bring that human element and the curiosity and there's a person on the end, not a reagent, but you're still coming in, trying to help some something and solve a problem while proving an outcome. So starting with that point of view, you might be wrong. Well, I was many times, it should be pink, mine was purple, like what the hell happened there? But it's also the willingness to try, you know, and so many times when labs were over at six and I'm there at seven and they're like, we want to go home.

And I'm like, I want a hundred percent. So you're going to, I'm the customer here. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done.

And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to jbarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. I love that. And I think it bleeds well into, you know, where we are today with the evolution of sales and at least my perspective on this, you know, the days of solution sell, you know, we went from solution selling to challenge your sale to what the fuck ever, who cares? But, you know, the concept of just asking questions and then producing an answer for somebody is kind of dated, obviously, because clients don't always know what they need. Challenge your sales a little bit heavy with like, Hey, I'm smarter than you.

And this is how you should do things. And if it's misappropriated, it usually fails hard. But hypothesis selling and I've started to really hone in on this doing a little bit. I'm not a psychologist or anything, but I love the psychology of sales and the whole concept of, you know, we're taught to ask open-ended questions all the time, right? Like, Hey, I can close into questions, open-ended questions. Great. But I've realized that sometimes when you just ask that lazy open-ended question, Oh, tell me about your priorities or what, you know, those types of things. You're forcing the person to do a lot of work. Yeah. Like, first of all, like, tell me about your priorities. It's a very like, okay, well, what priorities?

I have a million different priorities and today's priorities are different than yesterday's. And now I got to think through that, figure out the one and then articulate that to you in a way. So you're making them do a ton of mental gymnastics. Yeah. Which nobody likes to do. No. Versus coming in with a perspective and a hypothesis being like, Hey, Karen, you know, we're working with a lot of other sales executives like yourself and some of the things that we're seeing right now are X, Y, and Z. And based on what I know about your business, here's, here's kind of my hunch is that you guys are dealing with X, this, and that. Am I on the right track here? Anchoring with that, your desire to correct me or elaborate on what I say is far greater than it is to answer some generic open-ended questions.

So how much do you lean in on hypothesis selling when you come? And is it for you relevant to the prospecting side of the house? Is it discovery? Is it where, where do you come up with a hypothesis before you go after a client? I mean, great question. And I absolutely do a hypothesis selling because if you don't show up with a point of view for me, time is currency and my own time and their time. And I'm thinking, if you start a call and say, what are your priorities or what's keeping you up at night? Like I'm done. I'm out because you, you've showed me right now that you haven't taken the zeros seriously. You don't respect my time. It's like coming to the party. Like, what did you bring? Even if I don't like it, show up with something.

And so it could be an assumption. And like you said, people love to correct you or they can, or they can add more. But I always say, even when you're asking a question, point them where you want them to go. So like you just said, what are your priorities? Well, I'm looking to do my back deck. I'm looking to book a trip to Italy. Like, you know, in the next three months, as it relates to your team and the CRM upgrade that you're looking at, what are the top three things you're looking to do in the next month? Like, boom, point them and narrow. And so you're doing the work for them. Because like you said, most people are probably in the unaware phase. They don't know that they have a problem. They're just trying to keep their job.

And so how can you come in with a perspective or just zoom in on a snapshot of their business that makes it so easy to go, oh, John, these three things right here. They're going to remember that person and how you really took control, came in with a point of view, and highlighted something that really they might not have thought of. And they're all so grateful going, Jesus, if I don't solve this now, oh, my God, it could bleed over into there. We're going to lose budget there. Like, you're helping them. And so where do I come? Anytime when I'm prospecting, I will never send a self-directed email. It's always got to be. I used to always be problem, like you think about loss aversion theory, people are twice as likely to avoid risk than they are gain.

But what I've since started doing is blend it. So you're throwing some of the problem statements in. But what if they're the other side? So you want to throw a bit of benefit as well. And you're testing it. But I use ChatGPT, 100%. I will find a problem with if I know the industry and it's like I'm talking, I had a meeting with them. That's different. That's a warm lead. But if it's cold, I want to do research on the industry. on the role, that function specifically, any changes in regulatory and governance and timely. Like if I'm going to bring a problem and say, hey, you know, 24 months ago, I heard you guys were struggling. They're like, yeah. And it was solved 24 months ago. Yeah. You know, so really, when you look at the amount of noise coming in, like you have to be so pointed, so clear and so tight with your messaging that all you want is a response.

So what I see when I do email reviews, I'm like, I don't even know what your ask is here. You're just barfing information. There's no white space to someone who doesn't know who you are. That is, and you are making it very easy for them to delete it. So when you can come up with a hypothesis that they've never thought of, you are doing them a favor. Like that's that law of reciprocity. They want to get back and say, if you saw this, what else do you see that I may not be seeing? I'm like, let's lift this carpet up and see what's under there. Love it. Yeah. I think that's the thing. It's like, especially when you deal with executives, right? I mean, these days, no executive on the planet wants to be quote unquote qualified.

You know what I mean? The last thing I need to your point of time is the currency, right? The last thing I need is some kid who's going to be like, John, we'll keep showing, you know, look, I know what my problems are. I don't need to spend 30 minutes telling you what my problems are so you can figure out, you know, how to sell me something. Like if you're not coming to me, if you're not educating me on something, if you're not bringing something to the table, then this conversation's over. I do the same thing as you, by the way, every call that I, every sales call that I take, right? For a solution, whether I'm interested or not, I take them all just because I want to see what sales reps do and everything else, I ask one question and to start before we get going on anything, I say, Hey, real quick, before we get going here, just do me a favor.

Tell me, tell me what you know about me, about my business and that kind of thing first, right? Let's, let's go through that process just so I can understand where you are. And I did this a while ago, literally 14 out of 20. Couldn't even tell me I did sales training. Literally like couldn't even, I mean, they did the whole, Oh yeah, you know, I was on your website, but I'd really like to learn more from you directly. Or, you know, they'd be like, well, you know, and you see them feverishly type in jbarrows.com. Totally. You get it typing in the background. Right. And I'm sitting there and at that moment, when I see that, I go, Hey, here's a tip for you. When you ask for somebody's time, respect it.

You wasted mine. So I'm now going to take it back. And I literally just, I just click off the zoom session and I go my merry way. Yeah. And they deserve that by the way, because again, I think it's, I think those are the three most insulting things you can say to anybody right now, which is tell me about your business. What keeps you up at night and what are your priorities? Because you can find out that information before with Chachi BD. Easy. It's lazy. It's so lazy. The one thing I'll say there is, you know, that falls on the sales leader. Yes. You know, they are showing up doing what they're told to do or what they're shown to do. And that sales leader is not showing them what good looks like.

That's why coaching, I, you know, you talk a lot about coaching and I don't know how to solve this problem, quite frankly, because it's been, you know, I, both of us have been in the, in the game for a while here. I've seen the issue, you know, we both know that coaching, you know, people say, I don't have time to coach and you don't have time not to coach. It's the number one thing you should be doing, but it's the number one thing a, they're not taught to do. So there's not like, we think the sales reps don't get a lot of training managers get even less and not even just how to be, but how to coach. Then we get tools like gong and I love gong, but you know, when they say, oh, you know, review the gong calls, it's like, okay, this is my full-time job because I love it when people say, oh, well, no, you can just skip to the part that it says pricing.

No, you can't. If you want to actually be a good coach, because what you say at minute 22 about pricing was probably dictated by what was said at minute five. And if I don't understand what happened at minute five, I don't know what's happening. Oh, you just listened to two X. No, you can't because I I'm listening for tonality. I'm listening for inflection. And so I literally have to listen to a 30 minute call and then do 15 to 20 minutes of coaching on that call if I want to do it the right way. So how do we solve this problem? Like, where do you see the evolution going here? Is it AI is going to be the best coach? Should we hire independent coaches, not managers? Should we alleviate the manager from being a coach?

Like what, where your thought process on reality, we all understand what coaches should do and how we should structure things. But let's talk about reality. Where do you think we can actually make a difference from a coaching standpoint moving forward here? I honestly think it's a hybrid approach because I think when you look at the human talent and the time we have, you know, that is a full time job. And yes, I 100% support we need to be coaching our team. But how can we do a blended approach where there is some AI built into it? But like you said, when you're looking at it from a 2x standpoint, and you're picking up in the body language, inflection, the eye contact, all these things are important.

But what I see is coaches, managers telling people what to do, right? And so that's just a waste of time. So don't, you're probably better doing nothing at that point, because your rep feels, here we go, they don't even want to be on the call. They're like, he's going to tell me what to do anyways, because this is how he did it. So you're disempowering them. So how can you leverage the both? And first of all, do you have a scorecard? Like, what are you measuring against so that when I'm having a call with you, the metrics I'm looking at, are they going to be the same? And are we, are we doing this like weekly so that we can see, okay, I'm starting to see this habits being formed here. You stopped doing this, you've replaced it with that.

I can reward that because you are transforming the person and helping them become the best version of themselves. So if you start, stop, start, stop, you're not using any algorithm, um, they're not seeing it. Like I also always say, watch it yourself. Like game tape doesn't lie. And the one post I recently did was watch it with the volume down. I saw that with the volume. And just like, look, are you looking down like this? Like, what are you doing? Are you engaging? Are you pausing and really inviting? Like, let them feel the silence, things like that. So long, like I think a blended approach because to do it all with one person, that is very time consuming. Yeah. Yeah. I think my, for, with all the, you know, potential of AI, right.

Of love and all the positive potential, you know, the negative we can, I'll freak out about later. Um, but I think out of all the applications, I think frontline coaching is where I, I think it's going to make the biggest difference. And the reason I say this is because coaches, you know, we talked about, they don't have time, they don't have the skills, they don't have the ability. Um, and it's subjective, right? So it's like my opinion of what you should do versus data. And, and so now, and because quite frankly, this generation and, you know, take it or leave it, but it's pretty true across the board based on my experience. They don't like feedback. They don't get the, you know, cause they've never been given real hard, direct feedback in a constructive way.

So when you give them, even if it is constructive, it's almost like this allergic reaction to it. And it's, and it's a feeling now if I, even if I get bad, but, but direct and helpful, my man, I might think that my manager doesn't like me. And so therefore I'm not going to accept that coaching because I don't think that person likes me. And now I might even go talk to HR and now management is actually scared to do the train. So now it's just, it's even worse. So I think the AI, which can record this entire conversation, I can map it out against very specific medic band criteria, whatever I want to put in there. And it gives an immediate email back to the rep saying, Hey, here's the summary of the call.

Here's what you did good on. Here's what you didn't good here. And by the way, you didn't do a good job on closing. So here's a couple of pieces of content that'll help you get better on closing. And so that from a day-to-day standpoint, but then aggregating all that up to a macro where the manager now can look at it and say, okay, now across the board here, everybody's having a challenge with next step. So we need to invest in a macro training there. Whereas Sally over here, she just has a really hard time getting people across, you know, whatever. So I'm going to coach her specifically on that. That's where I think AI can make a huge difference. Yeah, absolutely. And then, no, I think that's great getting it to do the heavy lifting and then you can come in and still see what it, what it's doing.

But I think also culturally, you have to, it's like anything. If you're just going to start saying, we're going to coach our team, like you have to get buy-in as to why you're coaching and for the refs to understand this is part of your development. Like I'm on your side here. Otherwise, there's going to be a resistance. And so I always start with the managers and just, we start with the mindset and the why. Like, why are you even a manager? You know, so that they can get the best practices. They can have their say in what the scorecard should entail. Because when they're not, you know, holding their reps accountable, there's something that there's a need that within them is not being met. So always starting there and really getting that flesh out, getting them bought in, that downstream is going to have a ripple effect to the team.

But if you just have some person at the top saying, we're going to coach and this is a mandate. And it's like, that's like writing on the wall. How do you embody that? How do you soften it so that people actually see the value in it? Like, oh, John's doing this because, you know, he wants to help me achieve this goal. And, you know, I'm trying to become a senior AE in the next two years. I see. I feel that versus big brother coming in. And if there's no context and really, you know, setting the stage as to this is for you, then there's going to be a wall up. So you said something interesting there. I want to open up a little bit because it's very relevant to, you know, I use my podcast a lot of times for like an open therapy session in a lot of ways to deal with my own issues.

So you said accountability. I have been able to identify over the years that that is my biggest issue, period. That's why, you know, I grew this company. We were 20 employees, 6 million. It all fell apart in 2023. And I realized it was because, you know, I built a business because I could, not because I wanted to. You know, my style of coach, my style of management, I think I'm a decent leader. I'm an all right coach. I'm a shitty manager because, you know, I'm kind of like, keep up. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to give you the tools. I'm going to give you the resource. And I'm going to expect you to be a grown ass woman and do your fucking job. You know what I mean? And come to come to me and talk to me about problems.

And yes, we're going to work on stuff. And I'd say like, I'm the I'm the one you want in your forecast review because we will get creative. We'll figure this out. But as soon as you miss your forecast and I got to put you on like a pip or something like that, I'd rather blow my brains out than fucking put then go through that micromanagement shit. And I've realized that myself, like, I don't like holding other people accountable because I don't like holding myself accountable for things because usually I'm pretty successful at what I do. But I and I kind of like do the majority of it. And then I'm like, yep. All right, cool. Like, that's better than most. And so now I'm moving on. So where's that?

Like, how do you uncover? Like, OK, John, you have a problem with accountability. How do we address that for you as a manager first so that you can then be a better manager for your reps? Like, what kind of work do you do with them once you a how do you help managers find what their deficiency is so that they can look internally? Because that's that. And B, how do you I mean, I know it's different based on what the issue is, but how do you coach them towards addressing that so that they can be a better manager? Well, for you, that's great self-awareness. I mean, I think that's what it comes down to. You were aware that this is a gap. This is an area of an opportunity for you and you're going to work through it.

And it's the same for me. And that's why I'm part of an accountability group. I know that about myself. So part of it is doing the inner work. And a lot of people don't slow down to check in with themselves, whatever that means, if it's meditation, if it's going for a walk, but just quieting the mind to actually listen to what is going on inside me. What makes me happy? What lights me up? When do I get triggered? Why did I snap at that? It wasn't John. Like, what was it about me? And just get curious. And the reason most people don't do that is they are afraid of what's going to be revealed. And they're probably not in a position to deal with it. So when you can sit quietly with yourself, and I start with doing a core value activity, looking at who...

There's a quote that I really love by Hal Elrod. It says, success is what we attract by who we become. And that's what I... When I do my goals at the beginning of the year, they're lofty goals because I'm like, I'm not her yet. But like, as I become her, by doing these things and changing and creating these habits and adopting this belief system, that's who I'm going to become. Now, what core value do I need to align with that's going to get me there? Because I think like Octane, like this one here is good for where I'm at this year. But it's not enough... It doesn't have enough torque to bring me to the next level. So who do I need to become? And then you start just looking at that future state you and say, well, what's missing?

You know, and even visualizing this person, say, this is a person who gets up every morning, who does, you know, some form of physical activity, who's giving back to society, who's closing X amount of business, like see yourself, put yourself in there. And then you start going, okay, well, look inward and go, who am I today? And then you start seeing the delta in between. And you're like, okay, well, in order to do that, I need to be doing this. I'm not doing that. And then you can start writing them down and say, why? And the accountability might not come to you at first, but you might realize, I'm not taking as many risks as possible. I'm not putting myself into as many situations to elevate my visibilities.

Why? Hmm. And it could dot, dotted line back to accountability. Even as an entrepreneur, no one telling me what to do. Like I had a boss, I had a quota. I can do whatever the heck I want. I need, and I know that about myself. You know, the best thing when I was doing my online courses and my video auditor was like, I need this by this. I'm like, oh, and then I was like, but sometimes you need to put yourself in those situations to go, wow, that really worked for me. So just being mindful of what's working, what's not and taking note of them. And removing any ego or shame of like, oh, you know, so I can't believe I'm like that. Who cares? Isn't it great that that's raised itself? Now you are aware and now you can go do something about it.

Yeah. That's what was, you know, when I went through the core value exercise. And I think it's, it's one of those things where I think I always had decent value. I know I did. My parents instilled some decent values in me, but, and I always felt strong. You know, I did the 12 personal guidelines, you know, after I read Think and Grow Rich or something like that. And, um, but that, but until I sat down and went through the value exercise and really, really asked myself, like, does this matter? You know, and I encourage everybody to do that, quite frankly, especially when they're in some type of transition in their career or they're uncomfortable. Cause a lot of reps come to me and say, John, you know, I'm like, I don't know.

I don't like this job. You know, I'm looking for a new one. Any suggestions? I'm like, well, have you gone through the value exercise yet? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, look, until you understand what your core values are, you're just going to keep going around looking for a job. But once you understand those core values, then you start looking for people that align with those jobs, companies, people, family, everything. And that's where we were talking before we got on here. You know, I did a lot of that work in these days. You know, I know I am crystal clear on my values and, and if anybody crosses them, I want nothing to do with them. Uh, if you bring drama into my life, I want nothing to do with it.

And it's, and it's a very freeing mentality because it's like, I, I'm to your point, like before I used to react very poorly on to certain people, to certain things. And, and like, like, why was I so mad when that person did that? Well, if you really peel it back, it's because they somehow broke one of your core values, whether you knew it or not. And that's why you reacted so poorly. So when you recognize that, then it's like, oh, okay, well now I don't have to react because I understand why I, this doesn't feel right. This, this, this customer, this person, this family member, I don't want to be around them. And that, and here's why now, and this, what we talked about, um, what's her name?

Uh, um, let them right now, Robbins, no, no Robinson. What was interesting about her. Cause I was like, okay, let them, but that's not like, uh, sometimes you can't like, okay, I don't want to, you know, my mom's going to be upset, you know, if I don't show up to, you know, dinner or whatever. Oh, I'll let them. Oh, I care about my mom. Yeah. You know what I mean? So what, but what her reframe was, it was about, let them do whatever they want to do, but then let you let me, and that that's a, that's the decision to say, my mom's going to be upset if I don't show up that, that let her be upset. That's her thing. Now, let me, do I want to allow that to happen or do I want to choose to do this because I want my mom to be happy?

I don't want, and I want to be happy, right? So it's, it's, it puts the power back on you to make the choice of doing it. Because at first when I was let them, I'm like, uh, Mel, there's a part missing here. There's a big part missing this. Like, Oh, we'll just let them do whatever the fuck they want to do. It's like, uh, no, like I need to do something about this. Cause otherwise I'd be the rudest asshole on the planet being like, eat shit, do whatever you want to do on me, you know, like, come on. So are you aligned with her mentality on that? Yeah. I love Mel. I feel like I know her. I read all her books, listened to her podcast. And I definitely like, I always go back to, I can't control what other people are going to think, what they're going to do.

All I can control is how I choose to respond to it if I do. And if I do, then I'm, then I go back, you know, it's all about self-awareness. I love, why am I, why am I upset? And it's like, cause I took the bait. Like I allowed me to go into them and their beliefs and why they did what they, I can't control that. And even when you think tie that back to sales, I remember earlier in my career, like this doctor went off on me and I was so young and I was like, oh my God, I can't, but like, but I didn't have any awareness. And I remember going for running and just the light going on and going, that wasn't me. He had a bad day. But I, I didn't have the wherewithal to even go like, screw that, you know, and we internalize it.

And I just think, especially if you're new in sales, like that's going to start stacking and stacking. Cause it's the only job that you just get no after no, after no, that if you don't push back and have some sort of filter and boundary to go, let them, I can't control what you're going to say. I can choose how I show up and I can be proud of myself, but like a hundred percent, you have to let them and then let me, I have to be okay with the way in which I respond and how I choose to respond as a choice. And I think I'm going to go back to the values piece of this, right? Because I, that's how I sleep at night. That's how, even when I make a mistake, even when I say something dumb or potentially offend somebody, right?

I know it wasn't due to, or let's put it this way. When I want to offend somebody, I'm going to offend somebody. You'll know if I'm out to get you. So if that's the case, like if I, like I am very conscious of, okay, now I'm going to offend you because you're an asshole, right? But if I, but if I'm just being me and I'm, and I'm living my core values and I upset somebody or somebody else is pissed, I'm actually a hundred percent okay with it these days because I sit there. I'm like, look, I'm not coming from a place of malice. I was coming from my values. I might've articulated them the wrong way or presented them the wrong way or whatever it was, but it wasn't because I was trying to fuck you over or any of that stuff.

It was just because this is where I was coming from. And you might've taken that the wrong way or not the way I meant it, but I'm not going to sit here and kill myself or eat myself up for all these issues. That you had got upset about me for doing something that I might not even been aware about. Yeah. And so I think that's the power of those values, right? People talk about the Simon Sinek why, like, I think that's really important, but quite frankly, I don't think you can, I don't think it's realistic to, to truly go through the why exercise until you're in your thirties, maybe ish. Like, you know what I mean? Cause you just, you haven't had enough experience to truly, I mean, some people early know exactly what they're wired, but values are something I think a kid should go through.

Yeah. And I, it's funny, I was cleaning my office and I did the Simon Sinek workshop and I have the packet there and I was in my, no, I was in my forties when I did that. Um, but, um, I was too, early forties when I finally did it. But I think the values, like a lot of, it's so, it's a word, but people don't adopt it. And I think when you just think about going through the motions and not really anchoring anything like, what do you stand for when you stand up in front of your team, in front of your customers, your prospects, like what is that true North in there that fire in the belly and the heart? And we don't know what it is. And it's probably changed. So this is an activity I would say go through every two, two years because what got you there is not enough to get you there.

And sometimes without understanding, like you said, I forget your last example, but if someone said something and it doesn't align to your core values, you're, you're annoyed, but you, now you, you have an awareness and an understanding and there's comfort and closure and letting that go going, I know why, but if you don't have, if you haven't identified your core values, you're just going around angry because you feel like you're a victim. Now you're like, I know this there's, we're not good. That's okay. Or you've crossed this in me. Okay. But then I can start looking for people like that. And I know I'm not going to align to that. So, you know, when you look at sales, that for me is the core, the foundation, because when you have an awareness of that and you embody them, there's a knowing you show up different, you show up like unstoppable and that's, that's how I, that's my superpower.

Totally. And it's funny because that, that focus, right. Is, you know, I say I'm a good, I think I'm a good leader. I'm an area coach. I'm a terrible manager type of thing. But I had somebody on my podcast. So they're like, no, you're not, you're not a bad manager. And I was like, no, you don't know me. Like I'm, I'm not very good. And she's like, she goes, let me ask you. She's like, you're how many manager jobs have you had? I'm like, I've been a manager about six or seven times. She goes, I guarantee you there's at least a handful of people that you managed that are rock stars and did everything you said and excelled at the highest level. Am I right? And when she said that, I thought back to every single management role I had.

And there was always that one or two kids who bought into everything that I was saying, didn't get offended when I, when I gave them direct feedback, followed along, paid attention and became uber successful. Like there's four or five kids that I've managed in my life that make literally 10 times more money than I ever will. And they call me up and say, thank you every once in a while. She's like, so you're not a bad manager. You just need to manage the right people. And so when she said that, even though I'm probably never going to hire another person again in my life, if I do, I'm going to go profile every single person that I thought was a rock star that ended up being a rock star that I ever managed and say, okay, I need them.

I need that mentality because that is who I shine with. It's the same thing with customers. There are certain customers that I hit a home run with. And I encourage reps to say, look, if I can do a little bit better than what you're currently doing now, we shouldn't be having this conversation. My goal in this conversation is to figure out if I can be that much better than what you're doing now. And if I am, I'm going to push pretty damn hard on you to get this thing done. If not, I'm going to be the first one to tell you to get out of here. So how do you do that? You talk a lot about helping the client in the sales process feel safe about making the decision. Help me understand that because I think the biggest challenge that most reps have right now is risk and indecision, right?

Jolt effect, all that stuff, right? Because there's just too much going on. And even though it makes all the sense in the world, they look at it and they, yeah, you're better, faster and cheaper, but the transition risk here is too high for me to make that leap because I don't want to be responsible for this. So how do you help make clients the right clients? How do you help them make them feel safe to make the decision? I think that's a great question. I think it's probably a question that most people don't think about. And that is my number one goal when I get on a call is to disarm them. I know that there's competing priorities. I know that the emotion underlying all of the 56% of indecision is fear.

And so when I lay on uncertainty, doubt, and all these harsh tactics, all I'm doing is making them hold tighter to status quo. So that's the last thing I want to do. So how do I show up being non-threatening, using non-assumptive language, letting them know I'm on your side and I'm okay. If this isn't a good fit, I'm okay. So I'm already detached from the outcome. And my goal when I get on any call or when I meet someone is that I want to leave you better than when you first got on the call. And that might be, we're not going to work together. I cracked a joke. I made you smile. I brought a memory back from when you're in high school, whatever. Or I shared an insight that you're like, you know what?

We didn't know that. We're not ready to solve it, but maybe any, that's okay. So even that itself, they can start, you see the body language start changing and they're like, oh, she's different. And that's why I just want to, I want to have a conversation. My core value is connection. So how can I connect with you? And part of that is the energy and how I show up. I'm not this crazy, you know, I'm also not 26 anymore, but I'm not talking a thousand miles an hour. Me, me, me. Let me show you what we can do. Can we get on a demo? Can we book a call? Here's my calendar. I'm not that. I'm so just calm, present. I know my strengths. I know my sweet spot. And, and I have my upfront contract. If this is not a good fit, you know, I'm okay to say, oh, you know, goodbye.

Does that work for you? Yes. So right off the bat, the reason people get panicky is salespeople have this perception that we're going to corner them and they want to get out. They want to know that there's a door or a window. So I'm saying we're not even in the room or in an open field here. You can go wherever you want at any time. If this doesn't feel right with you. So there's that psychological safety and that's disarming them. Part of that is showing up prepared, doing the homework and they say, okay, this is a good use of time, letting them know a little bit about who you are and just, you know, asking the right questions, but also not laying on fear and showing them what it's like to work with you, like that desire to help.

Because at the end of the day, they're thinking that's going to be my name on the docusign. So I don't want egg in my face because I know they just laid off three other people in my department. So how can you even instead of going, well, I want to give you a hundred licenses. Like, why don't we just, if it makes sense, get a quick win. Why don't we start with one department, try to get five of your top reps. We'll run into the program, get the metrics and see if this is a good, meaningful use of your time. The metrics we're looking for, if it's incremental, it's not worth change management because that's what we are. We are trying to get them to change. So if you're at 5% and I can bring you to a seven, it's not worth it.

Like, let's, let's move the needle significantly here. Let's bring in some stories. Let's acknowledge their feelings. Like John, I can understand you're probably feeling like this, like rest assured most people we work with and just all this thing to soften it, to allow them genuinely to feel heard and not push them somewhere that they don't want to go and they're not ready to go. You have to be that Sherpa and walk with them a little bit ahead and guiding them, but not pulling them because when you, when you're pulling, they're running the other way. Yeah. There's a, there's a couple of, I've seen this a couple of times on Instagram, right? The algorithm has me nailed where it's, you know, the, it's actually a football coach and they stand next to the, the player and they're like, Hey, all right.

Walk with me. Let's, let's do 10 steps together. Right. And they go one, two, three, four, five. Right now let's do five steps back together. And they do one, two, three, four, five. Now I'm going to go over here. Now I'm going to turn around now. Put your hands up and push. Right. And, and try to prevent me, you know, and, and, and immediately like put our hands up here right now. And the person immediately resists. Right. So they, they show that like, okay. And then they say, what did that teach us? And everybody was like, what are you talking about? It's like, see how easy it was to get that person to go from here to here. When I walked with them, I didn't tell them what we were doing. I didn't tell them where we were going.

I literally just was there walking with them. And as soon as I started pushing against them, they immediately started pushing back. So it was like, it's one of those like, oh yeah, let's walk. It's easier to walk with somebody than it is to try to push them to do anything. Yeah. So I thought that was really interesting. And, and so with them, how much, again, I think it goes back to what we had talked about in the beginning, which is there's a certain amount of things that you just need to go through. You just need to learn based on experience and age and all that shit. How do you, how do you expedite what I call the, the catch in your sales groove moment? So I use, I use the analogy, my favorite movie, my favorite sales movie of all time is not Glen Gary, Glen Ross, Wolf of Wall Street, or, you know, any of that crap.

It's Tommy boy. And I talk about, there's a moment in each sales rep's life where, where they wake up and it's just a little bit easier than it was the day before. And that day is, is when you don't know it, but it's, it's when you start, you stop pitching your solutions and you start having conversations about your solutions. You start caring, you start caring more about what the client needs than you do your commission check. And oddly enough, that's when your commission check goes to the roof. Right. And I use Tommy boy as the perfect example, right? Like he caught his sales groove, right? Helen, you look like a Helen. Let me tell you why I suck as a salesman. Right. And he goes through this whole thing and she's like, oh, wow, you're twisted.

Let me go. Oh, tell me like you. Right. And in that moment he, he, he caught a sales groove, right? Cause before that he was trying to be his dad, right? He was pitching like, oh, you stick your head up a butcher's ass, but oh, they are, uh, and didn't know. Right. And then all of a sudden he was just him. And then it just, you know, he saves the town. So is there a way in your experience to expedite that? Cause that's exactly what you're talking about here. Like pitching and, and being so like, I got to tell you all that versus just having the confidence that I've prepared the right way. And I'm here to have a conversation. I'm here to help. Can you expedite that? I mean, you probably could a little bit, but I think it comes from honestly being who you are on the inside and knowing who you are because there's, there's freedom in surrendering.

And I think, um, when you're new to sales and you're just as hyper aggressive and I was that person, the reason I know all this is cause I was that person. Like I was that bang your chest. Like I was just, I was a hunter. I was a hunter before challenger came out. I was the challenger. And then in 2011 it came out and my colleagues were like, this is you. And I'm like, not proud, but yeah, you're right. It is. But honestly, I think when you, when you know yourself and there's an authenticity, and there's a shift that happens and I know the shift that happened and it was in life, it wasn't in sales. But I remember when I was in corporate and I'm, you know, you get the car allowance and you, you get your car selectors.

And because I was always the top salesperson when they were afraid, what I found out later was they were afraid of me. When I would call head officer, like give her whatever she wants, just give it to her. It's not on the list. We'll add it. And that was such sad news to hear after, but they're like, whatever she wants. And I, and I didn't realize that I was like that, but one day I came in and I had softened and everyone's like, you're so different. Like, what is it? And there was a shift and it was in my life. If I was doing my own work and my inner work, but I let go, but there was also an awareness of who I was. And when you don't have that, what I feel is you're searching and you're just grasping at things.

And let me try this. Let me try that. But it's like, what have you tried out? And what actually feels good and right? And you're like, this lights me up. I'm leading with this. And when you have that, you almost shift your identity. You are so okay. When someone says, no, you're like, I'm like, you know, understand why, but you can push back and you're just not so reactive and you show up differently. So can you expedite it? Maybe. But even when people say, what would you tell your 25 year old self? Guess what? She wouldn't listen. So you have to kind of go through the stuff. You know, can you compress it? Maybe a little bit, but honestly, John, I think it's something else. I think it's something in life that you go through where there's an accepting, there's a surrendering, and there's a peacefulness of clarity of this is who I am.

This is what I uniquely bring to the table and being okay with what I don't and sharing even vulnerable. Like it was so hard for me to be vulnerable and to share my fears and my insecurities. And now what I realize is I was doing others a disservice by not sharing them because I wasn't being a voice or a mirror for them to share theirs. And it was holding up this. Everyone has to be perfect and buttoned up because look at her. And I'm like, underneath this, she's hanging on by very thin threads. How much harder is it for, I mean, you do a lot of work with women in sales. How much harder is it for a woman to come to that conclusion and confidence than it is a man in your experience in this profession specifically, right?

Knowing that we need outside work and knowing that the challenges that men have as far as their own perception and how bravado sometimes hides a lot of the inner issues. But do you think it's similar but just different approaches or do you think it's just like women have to hold on to it for a lot longer, that perception, so that they can get to a point in their careers where they have the confidence to do it, whereas a man can basically, you know, early days, like, fuck off. Like, I can make a bunch of mistakes because I'm going to get a bunch of other opportunities here. Do you see that? I mean, I can only speak from a woman. I am a woman, right? What I do, I do see there's definitely a difference where they do have a bit more freedom in, you know, like showing up and having more opportunities.

And I'll tell you when I noticed that I was, I got into sales at probably 24 or 25 and I was a top performer, like not, it came naturally. I worked my butt off to get there, but I remember when I went on maternity leave and I came back and I was, I felt it and maybe, and I was treated differently. And I remember being on maternity leave as much as I enjoyed bonding with my babies. I also felt, um, I, I was on the outside and I was worried for the first time that I would come back and not be seen, um, and maybe even treated differently because it's like you have a strike against you then. And, but before that they're wondering and they can't ask the question, but they're like, is she going to have kids?

When is she going to go off? And there's that time and you know, they're talking and you can feel it. And then you're at a sales meeting and you don't order a drink. You're like, oh, she's pregnant. And so there's just this, um, awkwardness almost. So I do feel we have, there's a lot, like when we show up to a meeting, the stuff we have to do before in our mind, even if we're balancing families, again, not that men don't have it, but they're different. And I remember going to a sales meeting in Montreal. I, they called me in early off, Matt Lee, there was a negotiations training. I was grateful that they called me in, but I was five months after having a baby and mommy brain was like full on.

Like, they're like, this was negotiations. But I also remember people showing up at nine, get the coffee, ready to go. I had to pump in my room. I have a baby. My clothes don't fit me. And I remember just feeling so alone and, and just like, you guys wouldn't even have any idea of what I'm going through. And I never felt safe to share it. Like only when someone posted on LinkedIn, like three or four years ago, did I share that story because it wasn't shame in it, but it was just like one of these things don't, is it like the other? And so to get to that point of even contributing to the conversation, if you're starting there, like I got to come up here and then I can add. And so, yeah, it's definitely different.

Most of my sales career, I was the only woman in the room. And I think actually, you know, going back to the values conversation, that's why I think it's so important to understand your values and look for companies that share those values, right? Because if you're a woman early in your career and, you know, there's thoughts of having children, well, then you should look for a company that's going to support that, right? Because otherwise, unfortunately, the macro is exactly that experience that you go through. And it's hard to, you know, yeah, there's a long way to go. Let's put it that way, uh, to, to allow that comfort. Because I think what you mentioned there is exactly why I have the tattoo on my arm that I do, which is, uh, it's when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

And the point of that is privileges. And I did, I grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth. Like I, I'm actually on a crusade to change the word privilege to advantaged. Because when you tell somebody like me that I was privileged, fuck you. I worked my ass off for what I got here. I earned every goddamn thing I have, but that's not privilege. Privilege is I don't have to think about how I show up at a meeting. I don't have to think about what I wear today so I don't get sexually harassed and my cleavage doesn't show. So I actually, you know, get people to look at me in the eye. I don't have to worry about when I drive down the street and a cop pulls me over, I can literally roll down the window and say, what the fuck did you pull me over for?

And have no qualms about even thinking about the danger that I, that I could be in versus potentially getting killed. That's privilege. And I just wish more people, and by the way, we all have it. It's just not white males that have it, right? We all have privilege in some way, shape or form. And I think recognizing that and, and then using it to, to, to help other people who don't have that privilege is, is part of the game here when it comes to, you know, not being as selfish as I think a lot of us seem to be these days. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, even when you share those examples, there is a double standard. Like I can't, like, there's things you have to worry about, like as a woman that you don't as a man.

And that's why I feel such a strong connection to supporting women. And just, you know, I never had, I was never treated poorly because I was the only woman in the room. I was like, you're going to hear me and my voice will be heard. So I, I used it to my advantage. But when I see so many other weak, you know, meek woman and are afraid to speak up because it's, you know, especially in the tech or engineering and it's just like, they're like, my voice doesn't matter. I'm like, yes, it does. And they want to hear it, but that's when the leader has to create space and, you know, hush the, the alphas and embrace and let other people talk. And, and when you can help them, you know, that feeling of confidence and just like, I spoke up for the first time, you know, like that's, you just see, you've changed someone's life.

And so, yeah, I think we need definitely more of it. And there's, you know, I'm part of women's sales experts, which is a group of women who do what I do and, you know, the community and the support and the collaboration there, even the accountability back to that. It's phenomenal. Like surrounding yourself with strong mentors, friends, colleagues is what's going to help change that. Yep. And we need a lot more of it. So, um, and we can keep going. I think there's a lot of, a lot to unpack here. I mean, you, you cover a lot of topics with mental health and discovery and sales and prospecting and everything. So I think we could keep this conversation going for a long time, but I sleeve a little bit to the imagination and stuff for people to follow up on you with.

So what are you working on these days? Uh, where, where can people find out more information about you and what are you working on and what are you, uh, what are you looking for, like for, to attract, if you will, as far as customers or any of that stuff? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, they can, people can connect with me, uh, my website, k2perform.com, LinkedIn. Um, I am launching a women in sales eight week bootcamp. It's for women founders. Um, and I've been coaching women founders for a long time and there's been four pillars that we're identified women founders struggle with and it's finance, technology, mindset, and sales. And so I'm coming at it from the sales point. I'm also, uh, launching a similar program eight week, but it's a bootcamp just for B2B sales reps.

Um, so that's where people can find me and I have a podcast as well. It's, uh, paused this year for now, but a lot of guests in the past, a lot of great guests, you were on it. So, uh, lots of value there, K2 sales podcast. And, um, that's, that's where I'm at. That's where you can find me. Love it. Awesome. Well, uh, Karen has been absolute pleasure. Thanks for coming on the show. And, uh, hopefully I think, like you said, I was racking my brain about before or after COVID and time is just a blur. So let's, uh, it's been at least five or six years, I think, cause it was before COVID. Yes. Uh, let's, uh, let's do this again, uh, but not wait that long. Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much, John. It was great seeing you.

Absolutely. Great seeing you too. And, uh, thank you everybody for listening. Hopefully you enjoyed it as much as I did. Like I say, at the Undo all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad your day went or how bad you think it's going, if you make somebody smile today, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me.

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