Mike Weinberg: First Time Sales Manager

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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Today's conversation is with Mike Weinberg. Mike is a consultant, coach, speaker, and best-selling author of The First Time Manager Sales. Mike and I have known each other over the years since we play in a lot of the same circles, but we've never actually met. And it didn't take long for us to figure out that we share a very similar philosophy around sales and sales manager. During this conversation, we focused on the core messages of the book and what it takes to be a great sales manager, specifically a first-time sales manager.

Nobody really tells you what it's going to be like when you go from an individual contributor to being a frontline manager, and there are very few resources out there to help you figure it out. We dive into the mentality, pitfalls, tactics, and the overall approach it takes to be a successful manager in sales and have a lot of fun with our shared experiences along the way. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Mike Weinberg, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How are you doing today? I'm doing great, John. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Good to see you too. This is one of those, I think, known for a long time, but never connected, actually.

So we both obviously are in the same spaces from training, sales, coaching, all that fun stuff. So I've seen what you've been doing with the books and always been an admirer by far. But I'm glad to have this conversation with you today. So thanks for coming on board. Yeah, it's feelings mutual. I've been a fan from afar for about five years, and you didn't know this until the pre-show conversation, but you're my advocate for Boston sports. So I can see when you're freaking out when the Bruins or the Celtics are on television, it's not going well. I always know where to turn on Instagram to kind of get the real scoop from what people are feeling. So, yeah. Yeah. So that's, I appreciate it. Yeah.

Cause I'm a Boston true and through, but it's like, for instance, like this, this Patriots debacle that we're all going through right now, it's just an absolute nightmare. And, you know, you hear it on Boston sports all the time, but I'm right there with, unfortunately with everybody, I love Bill Belichick and I will be a fan and I just wish he would hang it up because the game is obviously passed him by and he's just not at, I actually don't think, and this actually goes to coaching. We can transition to the conversation about coaching and management because I honestly think that, that he doesn't know how to deal with this new generation of, of players, because historically you had people that just did their job, right?

Like you came in, you grinded, like do exactly what I tell you to do. And we're going to be successful doing that. This new generation is just not like that, right? Like they don't have the respect for what he had created, you know, history. He's not winning anymore. So people aren't paying an attention to him and all these kids coming into the, to the NFL are, they have their own personal brand. So it's less about the team anymore. And it's much more about my personal brand, which I can understand, right? NFL, not for long. If I was coming into league two, I'd be wanting to do my thing. So the transition right now, and that's what we'll get into with management is really interesting to watch based on Belichick and what's happening with the Patriots.

You know, I never made that connection. It's funny when you even use the phrase, he was used to people that did their job. That's the expression he's known for, right? I mean, I've seen the meme, the poster, do your job, do your freaking job and everything works. And yeah, it's, it's, it's a giant mystery to me exactly what's happened there, but it certainly could be the generational disconnect. It's weird to see someone who is that successful. And I don't, you know, you could talk about what percent of it was Brady or not. And you know, what makes a great sales manager, great talent goes, goes a long way. Right. And I just need to say this because I live in St. Louis. I'm a closet Boston sports fan because of some relationships with the Celtics.

And I enjoy that, but I cannot go to the Patriots because back to the Super Bowl. And that's where the whole Brady Belichick era started. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not in misery with you as your Patriots are collapsing. I'll just leave it at that. No, I trust me. I, I accept all the shit because for me, and we'll get into it right after this, but for me, when people give me shit, I'm like, look, I was, I had 20 years of the best football anybody's ever watched in the prime of my football watching career. So like back in the 2000, like early two thousands, I went to the, I went to the snowball game, the tuck rule game. I was at that game. And then on the bookend of it, I was at the Seattle Superbowl when the interception, I was 20 rows back on the goal line.

And I saw that interception happen. So those two bookends of that incredible run at, look, I don't care what happens on Sunday at this point, I'll throw my three games to glory on. I'll put my old Teddy Bruschi Jersey and I'll grab my Sam Adams beer and I will just sit there and watch that all day. Yeah. All right. Like, well, look, let's get, we're going to talk about management with the new book that you got going out first time sales managers, but let's, let's back up a little bit. I always love to talk about kind of your origin story. So yes, we'll, we'll get into kind of from a business standpoint where you came from, but if you don't mind backing up as far as like growing up and, and, you know, parenting that influence, cause I really love to understand where people's kind of bug about sales came up, bug about entrepreneurship came up and, and nature, nurture all that stuff.

So if you could back us up. Yeah, that's fun. I don't get asked that too often, but my, my, I grew up in the home of my dad who was a sales manager. And then later, like a big time New York city sales executive with big companies like Revlon. And I did not want to go into sales because I thought sales, which is, you know, it's funny now looking at what we're doing, um, was like, oh, you drive a company car and you stack nail polish displays and sell new line extensions or perfumes into drugstores, which is what my dad's salespeople did. And I'm like, that's not for me. I'm a business guy. You know, I was president of the business fraternity in college. And like, I'm smart, like I'm not going to do that stuff.

And I, I hated my first job, uh, at a college, it was in a retail development program to be like, you know, some retail executive. I hated it. And I ended up getting a job at slim fast foods when it was the fastest growing company in the world when Tommy Lasorda was on TV. And, uh, I worked directly for the owner of that company as his assistant. And it was like getting a real life MBA, traveling around, doing all this stuff. And the CEO owner of the company was the best sales guy ever. And he would go, I would get in the jet with him. We would fly to Bentonville, Arkansas, pick up the local sales manager in the region and go call a Walmart. And then that night, get in the plane and fly up to Minneapolis and go call on target.

And watching this guy sell changed my mind about whether I wanted to be in sales or not, because he showed me sales is about relationship. It's about solving problems. The real salespeople are consultants. They understand the customer's business. They're not pitching anything. They're not pushing. They're not manipulating. They're asking questions. They're building relationships. They're solving problems. They're bringing value. And I'm like, oh, that's what sales is? I just somehow, I didn't pick that up growing up and not no fault of my dad. He's been an incredible mentor to me through my whole career, but I just had the wrong view of it. So that's, I didn't want to be in sales. I used to be kind of a joke, you know, in my family.

Now, once I got into this business in particular, and then I, with that company, I was with SlimFast and opportunity came to move to the Midwest and handle the Walmart business. So I took it because I got tired of the crazy travel and I moved to St. Louis and in those days, you didn't move to Arkansas because nobody lived in Medinville. Today, it's gorgeous down there. And for about a year, I spent doing this sales job where it was basically consumer packaged goods into retail. And I figured out pretty quickly that that wasn't exactly what I wanted to do. I'm more risk-oriented and I don't mind conflict. And I wanted the upside of commission sales. And I ended up pivoting out of that into businesses where I was a sales hunter.

And I had a lot of success as a hunter. I think I had the natural DNA and I was, you know, not afraid of conflict. And I was willing to push. But I also had that mentoring between my dad and this guy that owns SlimFast about what does it look like to sell to executives and be a value creator, not a product pitcher. And that served me really well when you combine that mentality with the willingness to pick up the phone and initiate contact and interrupt people and not be apologetic and know that, you know, sales is a numbers game, but it's also a quality and connection game. And very quickly, I started having success as a hunter and then I started making money and I moved into progressively cooler jobs and realized, hmm, I probably have something here that's valuable.

My own little framework for hunting is very effective. And I started to realize not everybody could hunt. And there were a lot of account babysitters and, you know, people that were okay when demand came to them, but they weren't necessarily proactive. And that, that's what kind of got me going down the path and realizing I like sales and I love the idea of being a proactive new business development person because that's where the money was so, Hey, I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, filling the funnel and driving to close. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific skills and different tech like ChatGPT and how to leverage it in the sales process.

And it gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done you get all of this for $420 a year as an individual or $5,000 for teams. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to www.jbarrows.com and click on the individual or team membership and use code podcast, you'll get 20% off. Let's make this happen together. Love it, man. Yeah, that's, I think that it's rare that the hunter mentality, that's why, you know, these days with SDRs and such, like I, I, I cringe a little bit at the people who look at it as a quote unquote stepping stone so that they just need to get through it so they can become an AE, right? And we've gotten this mentality now that, oh, I'm an AE now.

I don't have to hunt. And I think that is about as bad as a mentality as you can get, because I just don't fundamentally understand, you know, why you would rely on somebody else for your success. Right. Like, and I'll tell you right now, like my ability to hunt saved my ass in Q1 this year, because I mean, we had, you know, 95% of our customers were SaaS and it, and literally the SaaS industry fell apart in Q1. And I had to go back to work. I mean, I've always sold and, you know, whatever, but like going back to like hardcore, like prospecting, cold calling, networking, like I had to put that hat back on. And I ended up generating like 49 meetings in February and 70 meetings in Q1. And it saved me and what I was putting together here.

And if I didn't have that skill, I'd be dead in the water. I would have had to go find a job with somebody, which- I mean, isn't that crazy? Think about how much better of a trainer, coach, consultant, because you're living and breathing and doing what you're teaching, right? And, and I, I see, so my business isn't, isn't as tech heavy as yours. So I have clients that are still thriving from the supply chain shortages from COVID where they're trying to manage, but it's, it's the few clients, I have a couple of clients in the tech space and I've never seen the brakes slammed harder, you know? And it's, I mean, from travel, I mean, there were big tech companies talking about cutting cell phone expenses.

I'm like, what? I mean, they, they lost their minds and they, you know, they got over cocky during COVID and it's, it's amazing to see how that's playing out right now. So, yeah, it's frightening because we got like, and we got lazy, you know what I mean? Like, and I'll put myself in that bucket. Like money was free, grow at all costs, all there, right? Everything was good. And you kind of take your eye off the ball because you get comfortable with what's going on. And I think a lot of people, and as we transition to the conversation about management, a lot of people kind of forgot about the fundamentals, right? We, we over-engineered the sales process. We put way too much tech to it. You know, it was go, go, go, go, go.

And if you were sick, I know there's a part in your new book about accountability. And how, if you're not holding people accountable, you're actually doing them a disservice. And we didn't have, hold these kids accountable. Like we, we, like a 60% button seat was, was better than a 0% button seat. So screw it. Let's go. Right. And, and, and I want to kind of get into your expertise with this as it relates to feedback. I think we're in a dangerous world right now because a lot of reps, because they didn't grow up getting very direct and good feedback. They got praised a little bit too much when they were kids. Now they actually don't even like feedback. I mean, there's been a couple of times where I've been giving like what I thought was genuine, just direct feedback to a couple of people.

And when I tell you physically, Mike, like they're, they're, they're doing one of these like, and I know podcasts can't listen to it, but it's like, they're cringing when I'm giving them the feedback. And I've literally had to stop feedback sessions and be like, are you, are you okay? Like, are you physically okay? Oh no, no, no, no. I'm definitely, I'm like, no, you're not like, they're like, oh, I love feedback. I'm like, no, you don't. I'm literally watching it on your face. And so there's now this, this fear I've found from a lot of managers to give feedback, real feedback, because they're afraid that they're going to get ratted out to HR. What you just said is bordering on crazy land, right?

I mean, it's, and that's the reality that we're living in, in a, in a lot of places here. Here, I'm going to go a couple of places with you here. One is taking everybody back to the, to the reminder that sales is about results and numbers are unemotional, right? So it's, it's, it's the wake up call, particularly for people that have chosen to be in sales. The reason they let us sellers make more money is because there's risk and because we're paid for performance. We're not paid to do work. We're not paid for activity. We shouldn't be tracking hours. It's about production. So the fact that we have to be careful in this world, having a legitimate, I'll call it accountability conversation where we're sliding the sales report, the scorecard under someone's nose and then reviewing their pipeline with them, or we're giving them coaching.

And I'll say this, this is why these two chapters are back to back in the book. I think we have two really big levers and you agree with this because you talk about this all the time. We have two really big levers as, as sales leaders. One is accountability and the other one is coaching. So the way I say it is our number one job is to make sure that they do their job. But our number two job, which is just as important as making sure they get better at doing their job. And if what you're saying is true in a lot of environments where we have to be so careful that we're not necessarily having a data-based rational conversation about results because someone might be offended, or we can't talk to them about sales skills or deal coaching or push hard on questions or give feedback after a sales call because that's, you know, it creates this environment though.

What can you do? Right? Because, and I'm curious for your take on this. I want to ask you a question. I get frustrated when I hear people in general in the media or, or executives broad brush the entire generation and say, well, they're all like this because you and I both see this in our claims. There are the top producers and there are still hungry, accountable, non-complacent people that want to be coached and they want to be challenged. They're not insecure. So I, I, I, how do you deal with that where the, the, the popular thing as well, they're all wimpy and they're all about themselves when there are also people in there that we see that really have the DNA and the, and the makeup of a star.

Like, how do you differentiate there? Yeah. So I think that, I mean, I will say like, if you want to generalize a lot of things, I'm seeing a generalized trend towards a lack of accountability, a lack, you know, right. But you're spot on. And I think this is why we, and, and this is again, part of your book, we have to be so hyper-focused on, on hiring right now and hiring the right type of person because we didn't really pay too much attention to hiring for the past 10 years, at least in the tech and the SaaS, what we just hired anybody and everybody that could fill a seat. And if you had a little bit of experience and you're okay on the phones and you can do the job, you got the job now, you know, really looking for, and I, and I remember this a long time ago, you know, it was funny, my first company, um, you know, we got it to like 50 people, right.

I was the fourth person on board, it was Thrive Networks. And, and I remember like around like the 50th person, like I felt this, this lack of passion, right. Cause when we were five people, everybody was all in and everybody's 20 people like, let's fucking go. Right. 34. And then it was almost like that 51st person was like, they just, they just were there for a job. And it frustrated me as a young 23, 24 year old quote unquote leader. And I remember vividly, I went to Jack Welch. So Jack, Jack Welch had this kind of seminar in Boston where he just does Q and a, and there was about a thousand people there and you could ask him a question, right. It's just pure Q and a. And I asked him, I said, Jack, you talked a lot about passion and all that other stuff.

I go, you know, 50 people, it feels like that 51st person just doesn't have the same passion. And I asked the dumb question that I now know is dumb, which is, Hey, how do you instill your passion on somebody else? And he goes, geez, you're looking at it all wrong. You can't. He goes, he's like, there's no way you can instill your passion. You have to hire for that. And literally that moment changed my entire perspective on hiring because now I don't care. I couldn't care less about your, your background is your skills and your, you know, if you came from the industry or anything like that, I look for passion, drive, grit, the coachability, things that I can't teach, right. I can teach skill.

I can teach all these other things. I can't teach drive. I can't teach passion. And so I think, I think if I were to, if I were to generalize, I would say that I am a little bit concerned about this overall generation when it comes to work ethic. I am going to put that blanket because I think on average, we're seeing a lot more, but it's also because there's a lot more options for people to do. And so if they don't like something, they're going to go find something else. But I think when it comes down to it, obviously it's all about the individual and about making sure you have the right individuals on that bus that can be coached, that can be trained, that don't do take development, that are open to feedback.

Yeah. So let me ask you this on this topic. And you're more in touch with this generation and more in touch in tech than I am, but this is what drives me crazy. In the, in the world we've been in the last, whatever decade or so, where we need to create safer places and we need to be a little more careful in terms of how we lead people. What I've seen creep in in sales hiring is we now have HR people creating job descriptions and creating, you know, screening for sales candidates where they're looking for this uber nice collaborative team player. And I get that we don't want the prima donna and we don't want the asshole and we don't want some cocky jerk that's all about himself, period, new paragraph, having said that comma.

I want sales killers more than I want collaborators. And I feel like we've gotten a little bit lost on remembering who the tip of the spear is. And even go, go to the SDR world. These people are in the battle every day, getting the shit kicked out of them because that's part of the game. And the one who is more resilient and could make it a game and doesn't take it personally and understands why they're doing it because they keep their eye on the prize and they're not conflict averse and they are competitive and they do watch the scorecard and they're willing to, you know, when someone, when you're prospecting and you get that initial no. And to me, that's just like a pause. Like, okay, well, I hear you, but let's visit anyway, or let's get together because you're going to get a lot of value.

Let's set this up like I'm not running and turning tail when someone gives me a rejection. I'm going to dive in because that's what assertive sales hunters do. Do you see this mushy weirdness that I'm running to where the HR people are trying to hire that, you know, everyone hold hands and saying kumbaya. And I'm like, I get, we want to be nice, but that's not the attribute I'm looking for in a sales hunter. Well, it's tough. So, so yes. And, um, I think the sale is changing the, or, and obviously, you know, let's put a huge caveat on this. It depends on what you sell and all this other stuff, right? Whatever. Um, and who you sell to, but I think sales is shifting quite a bit in the sense that it used to be the, the, the hard driver activity driven, go, go, go get people into the funnel, be really aggressive and go, and, and you can make that happen.

And I still think there's room for that without question, but the tolerance for the client these days of the experience of the sales experience, I was, there's a Gartner report that I've, I keep talking about where they just came out with it on average, the average of boomers, millennials, and Gen Xers. And they said on average, 43% of people, B2B buyers want a rep free experience. They do not want a sales rep involved in the sales process. Now that that's the bad news. The good news is, is that, uh, of those 20 of, of the 43% that didn't want a sales rep involved, they had a 23% higher regret rate in whatever they bought. So they regretted more of what they bought. So it's obviously that there's room for us, but I think that the team environment selling is actually coming, coming, starting to evolve a little bit more.

So you're starting to see, instead of a segmented, cause look, let's be honest, the, the predictable revenue model is a disaster for, from a client standpoint, nobody wants to be handed off five times before they actually talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about. It's inherently frustrating to be qualified six times over. Right. And so there's a, there's a backlash to that. Right. So now we're moving, you're seeing more pod oriented stuff, account-based marketing with pods and there's handoffs that are more associated. So I think that leans more towards, you have to be more consultative. You have to be more team oriented. Right. But there's still, I do agree. There still needs to be that tip of the spear.

It's how do you balance that tip of the spear with the values that are right for not being a douche and being that go-getter that, that goes against. Cause I think a lot of times that's in conflict, right? It's rare to find somebody who's like, fuck it, I'm going hardcore at this. Oh, and I'm a pretty good guy and I can work with everybody else. Like it's, it's rare to find that combo. Cause it, cause it is this tension and, and I kind of separate it between when we're prospecting. And then once we get the opportunity started where I go back from, from, I'm a dog on a bone trying to get the meeting. Now I'm like this chillax consultative. Let's see if we're fit. But, but I, I resonate with what you're saying because the buyers are frustrated because everyone's coming across either like an amateur or like a vendor or a pitch man or a pitch woman.

I'm not seeing, and everyone's talking about it, but I'm not seeing good consultative selling. I'm not seeing dialogue. Again, you, you just put a post up recently in the last week or so on LinkedIn talking about demos and timing and discovery in the right way. And I'm like, yes, preach. Because the re part of my feeling of what, where you quoted that Gartner stat is because sales leaders aren't coaching. Let's go back to where we started, right? They're not coaching and mentoring. So people sell like amateurs show up and throw up, spray and pray demo first, click, click, click, hoping we hit on something, but there's nothing to tie it to because there was no discovery prior to the meeting or even in the meeting.

So we end up with these people that look like vendor pitch men, you know, just circus animals doing a demo as opposed to someone who actually cares, who's authentic, who maybe did a little work on the front end and tells a relevant story. Right. So that's where I'm like, ah, but I think you, I think you can be assertive and not be a wuss when it comes to hunting and yet still be super consultative and not like adversarial when we're selling. Right. Like I'm curious for your take on that. No, I totally agree. I just think it's such a rare bird these days and we, our systems don't set them up for success or set them up to be able to do that. Tell me what you mean by that with the system, that's with the systems.

So the hiring process, the onboarding process, like most onboarding still to this day is product centric. We give the, we, we teach reps everything about the product and the nuances of the product and the details and the value propositions and all that other stuff. And we don't actually, and look, I'm all for making sure a rep can run through the slide deck, right? Just so they can get badges and they're certified. So I understand how you can present this. But then very soon thereafter, if they don't make it their own, if they can't figure out how to adjust whatever that quote unquote pitch is to their style and be adjust, you know, and adjust, but too many of them don't get the coaching. So they just keep running through the, the, the route script or the route presentation, because guess what?

That's what they got badged for. And that's that, that's unfortunately from a coaching standpoint, that's what they're being held accountable for. Did you hit every slide? Were you able to go, if they said, Hey, did you, did you bring them to B or did you go to C type of thing? And that's what they're being looked at. And so there's no like, it's, it's, there's no like thought about the transition to be a normal fucking human being after you take the script, which is what makes you attractive as a salesperson when you're a normal human being. Yeah. So here's, here's my frustration and question. I almost feel like I'm interviewing you now, but I want your take. Like it's, this is so cool. If the two most important things a sales leader could do is hold people accountable and coach when coaching takes a lot of forms, right?

Whether it's pre-call, in-call, post-call, deal strategy, skills, whatever. But what I notice is the first thing, because most sales, part of the problem is not the manager. It's the freaking C-suite. And part of my mission, John, and I, this is where I'm, I'm literally angry. And I mean, I've like righteously pissed off. I think so many sales managers are working 60, 70, eight hours, 80 hours a week processing 236 emails a day because the idiots above them have lost sight of what the sales manager's job is. So they're buried in all this crap and particularly post-COVID where they're dragged into virtual meeting after virtual meeting, sit on the product meeting, sit on this meeting, come here, come this.

And then they give them these assignments. And then the freaking CFO sends them, no, I'm pissed off. The CFO sends them a spreadsheet and says, I need forecast updates. And you're like, aren't we using the CRM? Like now I got to do double work. So the freaking manager doesn't get to lead, doesn't get to coach, doesn't get in the field, doesn't ride shotgun on virtual meetings, isn't sitting in the sales bullpen, if there is one anymore, because everyone's working virtually. So the coaching is the first thing that gets canceled. And some of it is the fault of the executives who don't understand if your manager's not working alongside the people or not doing pipeline reviews or not prepping with someone for a sales call or debriefing after.

How are the people going to get better? It's like this vicious cycle. They're not. They're not. It's the 10% that can get better because they're going to take it upon themselves to do their own stuff, right? So I think it comes back to the debate though on, you know, you had said earlier about the results, right? Like sales should be a pretty objective profession. I mean, you either hit the numbers or you don't. But I think the numbers have been so unrealistic over the past 10 years as far as growth metrics that a manager looks at it and says, well, what's my number one job? At least from what I'm being told, well, I got to hit the number. My team has to hit the number. So that's my, that's ultimately my number one job because my team doesn't hit the number.

I'm getting fired. Right? So therefore, how can I drive that short term result? Well, I do what I do because I'm a, I was usually, if I'm a manager, I'm usually the, I was usually the best rep on the team. And because of that, I got promoted to be the manager, not because I was actually had the skills to be a manager, just because I was one of the best reps. And usually the best rep is an artist, not a scientist. They, they just do what they do and they can. And so now you're telling that person who's just naturally gifted, naturally driven to then try to translate that to a bunch of people who are not naturally driven and not naturally, you know, have that ability and they don't know how to do it.

So what do they know how to do? They know how to deal chase. They know how to jump into a deal, help close it, help with their rep and that, and they're hoping that the rep is paying attention to that, to absorb it. So they're kind of, and that's what is just how, and it's a vicious cycle. Right. They're doing instead of leading or coaching. And I, I call that the hero syndrome. It's chapter five in the book. And it's, it's a problem of epidemic proportion, particularly in tech companies, because the manager feels the pressure to hit the number and they weren't necessarily mentored well, how to be a leader. They were just the top producer. So, I mean, this is part of why I wrote this book. The transition from individual contributor to leader is massive and no one tells you this.

The only thing similar is the word sales, sales manager, sales person, everything else is opposite. You go from winning on your own to having to win through your people. You go from being responsible for one to being responsible for many. You go from being incredibly selfish and focused. And like, you know, when I was a top hunter, I put on my door or my chair, DND on the cell phone, S-E-L-L, leave me the hell alone. You know, when you're a manager, you don't have that right. Your people need you. You have to have the door open. So that, that's that massive pivot. But what's happening is they end up doing instead of leading, coaching, or holding people accountable because exactly what you said, the pressure to hit the number, or sometimes it's ego, or sometimes it's control freakishness, whatever the cause.

But it's setting up this non-sustainable, non-scalable method of being a manager where you're getting the couple hundred emails a day. You got to sit on all this corporate stuff because they're making you do that. So you're not developing your people. So every deal you have to over-insert yourself in because you don't trust the person. So you're doing the prep. You're, you're leading the presentation. You may be writing the proposal. You're doing the negotiating. That's not scalable. You're not multiplying yourself. And the result, forget the fact that it hurts the culture. It's killing the manager. Oh, what does your home life look like? Like, you know. All right. Taking a quick break here to highlight some of the other incredible podcasts on the HubSpot Podcast Network.

You have to check out the Science of Scaling podcast hosted by Mark Roberge. Mark is the founding CRO of HubSpot, a senior lecturer at Harvard Business School, co-founder of Stage 2 Capital, and actually a good friend. He's even been on the Make It Happen Monday podcast a few times. Each week, Mark sits down with some of the most successful sales leaders in the tech industry to learn the secrets, strategies, and tactics to scale their company's growth. One of my favorite episodes is one of the more recent ones around the diligence of marketing and sales leadership roles with Sidney Sloan and Adam Arons of Drata. Sidney's actually another good friend of mine and has a pollen of insights into the CMO role.

This episode is jam-packed with insights on sales and marketing alignment, evaluating potential members of your leadership team, go-to-market alignment, and much more. Listen to the Science of Scaling wherever you get your podcasts. The stress level on managers right now is off the charts. And so let's start with this, though. What are those characteristics, right? Because there's characteristics of being a top sales rep and being a top manager are, like you said, are different because it's just a different role. But historically, it's like you've made the numbers, you've done the job. What are the things that you look for? And like, say you have a team right now and you're looking for a manager within a group of 10 reps, right?

And they're all varying degrees. Some are better than others as far as their numbers are concerned. Some are jackasses. Some are, but like for you as a, like an executive leader looking down, if you were to pick the rep of those 10, what would be the characteristics you would look for outside of results? Let's assume that they're either consistently hitting them or, you know, every once in a while they miss, but they're not throwing eggs. Then they're not blasting it out of that. They're not the number one rep, but they're hitting their numbers, give or take. What are the characteristics you look for to make that transition a good one? That's such a good question. I think some of it has to do with leadership attributes, but at the first level, the first thing I'm looking for is someone who understands how to subdue their own ego.

Because I would argue that an oversized ego is a pretty good thing for an individual contributor. I want you to have a little swagger and cockiness and rub off, you know, and be a little Teflon like when you get people to criticize you, like big ego works in sales. As long as you're not pissing off your customers, you're not ridiculously cocky. It doesn't work at all when you're in the management role, the manager that wants the credit and the limelight and to be on the stage and to be taking credit for the results and get all the glory that gets old really, really fast. So if I'm trying to pick the leader of a team, I want someone who actually can express to me, they get their thrills by seeing someone else succeed.

They don't have to be the one on the stage. They could be the one behind the stage clapping quietly, knowing that they coached them, they whispered in their ear, they challenged them, they held them accountable, but someone else is going up on stage to get the trophy. And if there's a way to find out who, you know, gets their jollies, like whose boat gets floated, when they see other people win, and there's like a little bit of a servant sacrificial leadership bone in the person who really wants to see other people do better than themselves. And that along with, you know, there's a fancy word, but followership, someone who has those natural attributes that people are drawn to them or will run through walls for them because they demonstrate that they care and they're there to support.

And, you know, one of the, one of the things I talk about in the book is you got to get to know your salespeople well enough that you can treat them differently. It's okay to discriminate, you know, not based on race or gender, right? Or religion or age. You discriminate based on performance and on style. And if you know, some people get, you know, their jollies and get really motivated when you treat them this way, then do it. And if you have someone who's really, really good, you might bend some rules for them. There's nothing wrong with that. They've earned it because they're, they're, they're performed at a certain level. So back to your question, it's followership and it's the ability to show some humility and get excited about winning through others.

If we could identify who that person is, because you don't necessarily need the biggest sales nerd trainer, technically competent manager, because the heart is as important as the skill and holding people accountable and giving them some feedback and pushing on them. That doesn't require being a sales trainer expert, nor does it require being the most driven, you know, kick-ass number one producer. And I, you know, on this topic, and I'm curious for your take on this, I am regularly having conversations with top producing salespeople, asking them to rethink whether they really want to go into management or not. Is it their ego that's driving it? Or is it because it's not necessarily more fun and you might not make more money?

So it's, I'm always on the side of the salesperson, like, are you sure you want to do that? You want all the politics? You want all the admin? You want all that burden? Or you want to just go have some fun and make some money? Because that's what you've been good at. Right. So. And I think that's not what enough leadership does in general, is like literally mapping out what management really is. Not, not just because that's the next step in your career. Because I think so many people just go through the motions of what they're supposed to do next. Oh, well, I'm a top performing rep. I'm supposed to be a manager. Then I'm supposed to be a VP of sales. Then I'm supposed to be an executive. Right.

And you got to back up and say, is this something that you really want? Right. And I, and I don't think enough of it. It's almost like now, have you read Jolt Effect actually recently? So Jolt Effect is a good one. And I, and I, yeah, and I'll make the correlation here with you, which is de-risking the situation. So Jolt Effect is the same group that, uh, uh, corporate executive board who wrote, you know, challenger sale, challenger customer, all that. And Jolt is something interesting. They got me thinking about the, the idea that, you know, everybody talks about how no decision is our biggest competitor, right? People are no decision, but it's really not no decision. It's indecision because there's so many options out there that people are afraid to make the wrong choice.

So our job is to de-risk it for them. So for instance, you know, I used to say, you know, we're all good at reverse engineering a sales process, right? Oh, you want to go live date on January 1st? Well, there's two weeks to do this, two weeks to do that, dah, dah, dah. So if you want to go live, like then we got to sign this week. Right. And then there's the, so, okay, cool. Now you have that date. Um, but then there's the, how do you get rid of no decision? Well, you ask the question, well, Hey, just out of curiosity, what if we don't go live on January 1st? Like what's the impact of the business, right? That's trying to understand what no decision is. But what Jolt Effect got me woken up is, um, what if you make the wrong decision?

Like, what if you choose wrong here? What does that look like? Because, and it's counterintuitive because in sales, we've all been taught to paint the beautiful outcome picture and then back into it. Right. Well, let me, let me paint this picture of how beautiful your life can be with my solution once. And then let me show you how to get there. Right. Because you're painting this euphoric state, you're trying to show that vision, but now nobody believes that vision. Right. So now you actually start, what I've started to do is literally start asking, Hey, Mike, so literally like what happens if you choose wrong here? Say you choose the wrong sales trainer and it's a dud and it, whatever, like, what does that mean for you?

You personally, what does that mean for the business? And that's where it's like this open therapy session. And, and a lot of people are scared because they're, they're scared to like get the person thinking about worst case scenario, but they're thinking about it anyway. So let's bring it up to the, let's bring it up to the surface. As it relates to reps, I would do the same thing. I'll be like, Hey, management, this is what management is. It is not pretty. You're going to get way more responsibility. You're going to have to do way more shit. You're not going to get any credit. It's all about everybody else. Not about you. You're probably not going to pay it. You know, so let me map out this bag of shit that you're about to get into here.

Are you cool with that? And if I can basically, if, if like I am, it's almost like I disqualify more than I qualify now with clients, like once you fit the mold, I then start asking all the questions why you shouldn't do business with me. I start leaning in on the stuff with management of like, look, let me literally tell you all the shitty things that you are about to face. And if you're cool with that, now let's make this trip. But if you are not cool with that, do not jump into this field. Stay an individual contributor. I love everything about that. I love the analogy for this particular situation. And I'm also just thinking as a salesperson, you know, when you come across like that, you're selling from such an abundance mentality, you know, you're, you're communicating.

I don't need this. And I want to make sure that you know what you're getting into with me here. And it's like this human, normal connection, like real people being honest with each other, which is just really attractive compared to the, the glitzy hyped pitch. It's all going to be perfect. Right, right. It's like, this is more reality. Yeah. Yeah. It takes guts though. It takes a salesperson who understands themselves and is, is willing to go there. A lot of times when I ask salespeople, why don't you do better discovery? Why don't you ask these harder questions? And they really, they get honest, they go, because I don't know what's going to happen in that conversation. I'm more comfortable going back to my demo or my pitch because I know what to do there.

If I ask a question and they tell me about some crazy thing they have going on, then I'm in a conversation. And I'm like, exactly. That's the idea. But if you're, you don't have business acumen or you're, you know, you haven't been mentored well, it gets an, it's an uncomfortable feeling for the, the younger or less mature seller to be in that, in that role. Oh, without question. And I do think that's, that's actually one of the things I keep telling, you know, teams, if you want to improve your results, one thing that you can do is forget about techniques here or any of that stuff. Just go improve your business acumen. Literally go learn how to speak the language of business. You know, talk to the personas that you're selling to.

One of the, one of the things I tell most of my clients to do is in a euphoric state, if you're going to create a, kick off a campaign to a certain, like say you're putting together a cadence to a certain persona, CIOs in healthcare, right? Well, before you do that, do 30 minutes, have the reps all get together, right? And everybody Google CIOs, healthcare priorities, challenges, 2023, whatever. Then ideally go get a couple of customers who are that role, who are that persona and have them sit on a zoom session and have the reps ask them questions. What's a day in a life look like, you know, uh, what were you doing before using our solution and what are you doing now? Like forget our marketing speak.

What's the value you get from our solution, right? And so now they're seeing the person, not the persona, they're seeing the person that is using their solution. So now when they create messaging, it's a lot more genuine. It's coming from the actual source. And when they, holy shit, absolutely, potentially get somebody on the phone, they can actually have a real conversation based on something they just talked about. This other CRO just told me she's dealing with this situation. I, John, a hundred percent, I want to put an exclamation mark. Sometimes when I do a sales story workshop, I ask them to go call three of your favorite customers and have them remind you why they bought from you. What were they facing?

How have you improved their life? What did you save them from? Because they're going to give you more compelling language than you would dare say on your own. So that's, that is a best practice for building case studies, you know, use cases, or even just getting compelling language to use when you're prospecting or in your presentations, get the customer to tell you. I love that. All day, every day. I want to go back to coaching real quick. Cause I, I, we started going down this path even early on with Belichick and I, this is the thing that confuses me. How little time managers actually spend proactively working with their people, you know, not just chasing a big deal. They're working with someone who's new or someone who's struggling, but like going in their calendar and planning out, working through their roster of sellers from top to bottom field work or sitting in virtual sessions, you know, working alongside, because you can't replicate that somewhere else.

Sales training, it doesn't make up for, you know, training someone or leading a good team meeting doesn't make up for you working one-on-one or watching someone. And I told this story in the book that I'm, I'm kind of a newer, passionate golfer. It started over COVID when we were all locked down and I have this incredible golf coach who, the only reason that I even have a relationship with him is because we went to the same church. I'm not qualified to be his student, but he's number one instructor in Missouri. And he gave me some lessons and I got kind of better, but then like, I don't know, six months later, he called me up and he goes, we haven't hung out in forever. Let's go play nine holes of golf.

And I'm like, you want to play golf with me? And then I, the whole experience, and I tell the story in the chapter of the book on coaching, I was dual processing this incredible reality that I was playing golf with this world-class golf coach. And I was kind of like the sales person who was a little nervous, but also excited that the incredible sales leader was coming with me in the field. And at the same time, I was benefiting as the golf student watching this guy, but I take people through the details of how he prepped me for the round and watching me warm up and then thinking through strategy and then just whispering a couple of times on the course, not too much. And then after we went out and had dinner and he started like painting a picture of what I could become and giving me some critique.

And I was like, this is the greatest thing ever. And my takeaway from that whole experience was this question I asked, and I did a blog post on it. And that's why I made such a big deal about it in the book. If sales managers would do for their people, what my golf coach did for me in a couple of freaking hours, just working alongside, watching with me, challenging with me, asking me questions. I went out the next day after he played nine holes and I played 18 holes with a buddy. I broke my personal record by four strokes. And I'm telling you, the only reason is because I was asking smarter questions. I prepared differently. I thought differently. And I had this incredible vision in my head of the golfer I was becoming because my coach told me that.

And I think, could you imagine if managers would do that level of prep when we work with our people or that much debriefing after, not just bless them and envision them, but also give them some good critique. Wouldn't a bunch of that stick for the next time they were out selling by themselves? And I just want to plead with managers, like get in your calendar. I know your company's burying you and all kinds of other nonsense, but if you're not working with your people and you're not watching them and you're not giving them feedback or helping them prep, how are they going to get better? And you know, you can hire us to train your people and that's great, but that's not necessarily the answer.

So I just, I, I'm pleading with managers to please, you've got two levers. You can hold them accountable, but then you've got to help them get better. And I'm also, so, and with that, I think it's also important, not only just to do the ride alongs and, and kind of get on their calendars, but also to a certain degree lead by example. And when I say that, you know, the story that I have on this is when I was, you know, I had just sold my company to Staples, right? And I was a big man on campus. And, and so now I'm at Basho, right? The training organization that I joined and I'm just a little trainer, right? I'm not on the executive team anymore, whatever. And I remember vividly, I'm sitting there, we did Friday afternoon call blitzes, right?

And I fucking hated them. Like I absolutely hated Friday afternoon call blitzes because I'd rather be golfing and whatever, right? So I wasn't, I was shooting the shit with a guy next to me on the cube and I was talking, right? And my, my manager comes in and he goes, Hey Barrows, you know, how many cold calls you make today? Like he was calling me out, right? Now this is a fireball offense. I, I, I absolutely should have been fired for saying this, but you know, me being an asshole that I am, I turned to him and I was like, I don't know how many, how many cold calls you made today? And he was like, and I, you know, I totally embarrassed him in front of it because it was in the bullpen and everybody heard it.

So again, that he should have pulled me right into his office and been like, you must, you go out there and fucking apologize to me or else you're fired right now. Like he should have done that, but he was a pussy. So whatever. Um, but anyways, he, he, he was like, he's like, well, I show, you know, I closed a million dollars this year. I go, no, no, that wasn't my question. My question was how many cold calls you made. And the reason I said it is because he had never showed me how to make a cold call. I had never seen him make a cold call. I had never, and he was barking down orders at me and I sat there and now, now that was me being a jackass, right? But I was trying to make a point. Now, the bigger point is that the following week I'm sitting there in my cube and his office was right behind me, right?

He had his door open. He had his headset on and he was making cold calls. And Mike, when I tell you he was one of the best cold callers I had ever heard in my fucking life, I was like, holy shit. I immediately put my headset on and I immediately went to work because I was like, fine, like, okay, like, wow, he can actually do this. You know what I mean? And you had said earlier, as far as a trainer is concerned, like me putting my hat back on and going back into training, I think the reason I'm an effective trainer is because I'm in the shit with everybody. I'm making those calls. I'm negotiating my own deals. So when I train, it's not because I read it in a book or I put it on a PowerPoint slide.

It's because I literally am living with it. And if you right now specifically with everything that's going on in sales and how much we're in this transition world, if you are not in the game, if you were trying to teach me something that you learned 10 years ago that you were trying to apply in today's environment, but you haven't tested it out or you haven't been in the game, it's going to be real, real hard for me to actually pay attention to you. Brutal. Absolutely. It's even why with my clients, sometimes I still get in the car and go pop in a sales call to watch what's happening because I can contextualize what I'm talking about with the sales team. If you're not doing it, if you're not doing it, you're screwed.

And some of my most painful experiences, I think people like me, my followers, because I'm transparent. When I lose a big deal, I go public with it. I lost this giant deal. And I said, here's where I didn't follow sales process. I knew there was this other senior executive from out of the country and I never pursued him. And my people kept telling me it's all good. I mean, there's one deal I told the story. I went out and spent $10,000 on two business class tickets to go over to the UK. I was going to turn this business trip into an anniversary trip with my wife. I was so confident I was getting the deal. My people were whispering in my ear. I went and bought the tickets figuring, well, I'm at least going to get reimbursed for mine.

I didn't get the deal. And it was because, you know, I wanted to blame them. But at the end of the day, after two days of being pissed off, I said, you know what? I knew there was this other executive and I never pursued him. And it's my freaking fault. And that's when you're in the game, you know, when you're teaching is so much more credible because we're in it. So let me ask you, I mean, with the advent of Gong and all these recording talks, like there's a certain point where that's kind of like a ride along. So what is your perspective on a ride along ride along where you're in the bullpen with and when we talk about ride alongs, that could be actual, an actual physical ride along or sitting next to somebody in a car, right?

They're sitting next to somebody at their desk. And so now we got Gong. So it's kind of like a ride along. I get to listen to it. I get to understand. I can do coaching that way. So what's your take on like active listening in the moment versus listening in a Gong call and providing feedback? I've never been asked this question and I love it. I'm going to give a couple different perspectives. I'm a fan of in-person, right? So if it's an inside salesperson, I love the idea of sitting with them or sitting with them in a conference room or however you're doing. So you're in the moment. But I think that the tools and use the example of Gong is great. But here's what I don't see managers doing who do have that tool.

I see them sending emails, like giving some feedback or being critical. What I would love to see a manager do is invite the sales rep in for a half hour coaching session and play a few excerpts from the recording and say, hey, let's talk about how this played out. Tell me how we got here and where did you end up and were you nervous here or what? Let's talk this through. I'm hearing this. Okay. Now that we've talked about it, what other options could we have done? Like instead of just using the recording against them, which is how I kind of see if you used it constructively as if you were in the meeting with them and having a good debrief after. So I think our best practice would be listening in together and then unpacking it together.

But I think if you have great tools, I'm not a tools expert, but you got to take advantage of them. But you have to humanize it. It's kind of the same thing me saying, you know, I don't care how sophisticated your sales process is and how many, you know, 18 stages you have in your CRM. I can't manage or lead you with my head in the screen. At some point I have to interact and ask you questions or watch you work so I can effectively be a coach because too many, and I told this story in the book, it's, it's, you know, you're a big baseball fan. It was the Dodgers. And I don't, I can't stand the Dodgers, even though I have lots of friends that are Dodger fans. When they won that illegitimate 2020 world series after the 60 game season.

So I don't think that even counts. That's from my friend, Larry Levine and other freaking, you know, Dodger fans. That was that episode where the, the, the Tampa Bay's manager went to the mound and pulled, uh, Blake Snell out of the game when he was like shutting down the Dodgers. But the analytics said after he goes through the lineup twice, yank him. And he went to the mound and Joe Buck and everybody else freaked out. And I mean, the only people happy to see that guy taken out of the game were the Dodgers because they, he shut them down and then they bring in the bullpen who blew the game. And it was this, I use that as a story of, you can't just manage by the spreadsheet. The analytics may said to take him out, but everyone who was watching, like this guy's electric tonight.

And they ended up losing the world series because they made this decision based on analytics instead of watching what was happening. And that's, I just, I just, I use that as an example to say leaders have to watch their people work. You're sometimes I say it like this. Salespeople are humans and they win by influencing other humans. You cannot just lead or manage or coach them through a spreadsheet or a screen. You have to watch the interaction. They're not drones. Like they're humans with emotions and you got to spend time and that's, I'll leave it there. So yeah. And that, that's kind of that science art, right? I mean, you can, I, I personally believe that sales is, should be a little bit more of a science than an art because the science lays the foundation, the objectivity and all that other stuff, the structure.

But the art is the individual attention. The art is, you know, that, that X factor that you have to look for, that, that you have to pull out of people by coaching, right? Because in, you know, my outlet, let's go baseball, stay there. It's like, it's like Billy Bean in the, in the A's, right? They, Sabermetric, they, they literally scienced out the entire fucking game and they got almost to the world series with that approach with a bunch of ragtags and, and no money, right? And great for them. But they never really got, they never got it, right? So what happened? Well, the Red Sox, the Red Sox took Billy Bean's system and then they added David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez. You cannot explain David Ortiz.

You can't. He is clutch. And there is no explanation for when that man stands up in the biggest moment in histories and crushes a grand slam. You just can't explain that. And there's something about that, that natural innate ability and that art form that is necessary from a coaching standpoint to pull out of people as opposed to over-analyzing and over-sciencing the entire process. So good. And just for the record, I was at game four of 2004 when you broke the curse of the Bampino. I was here in St. Louis and I was hugging the Red Sox fans. You were all crying because they've, you know, had been to however many thousands of years since you won a world. So I was at that game. Also, you were at the St.

Louis one. I was at St. Louis where you won in four games. You swept us. So, yes. That was a foregone conclusion. But so my claim to fame on that one is I actually wasn't at game four of the Red Sox Yankees because I gave away my fucking ticket. When they were down 3-0? They were down 3-0. They got beat something like 16-4 the game before. And I vividly remember the bar that I was in. I was like, you know what? I am not going to be at Fenway when we get swept by the Yankees. Fuck this shit. I held up my ticket for game four. And I was like, you know what? Who wants it? And quite frankly, nobody wanted it. I had to give it to a friend who gave it to a friend, right? And then I had game four up on, right?

And I was just, you know, doing housework or whatever it is. I'm watching the game. It's the end of, you know, it's bottom of the ninth. And I'm like, there's no fucking way they're going to win this game, right? And Dave Roberts steals the base. And no joke, Mike, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. And I was like, oh no. And I felt, I was like, all right, fine. They won one game, you know, but, and that game literally ended up being the greatest game in Red Sox fucking history. It's a great story. It's a great story. I feel, I say I did my part. I feel like I'm that important in the universe. If I was there, they would have lost, right? Too funny. It's a great story. Now this is a fun conversation, John.

Yeah. Like I think you and I could obviously talk for days about this. The book, First Time Sales Manager, I think a lot of people, whether you're a sales manager or not, I think you should take a look at this to understand what it's really all about. So, so if there's one, if there is one takeaway, right? Cause there's all these different things that are in the book that I, we didn't get to. What's the biggest kind of actionable takeaway that you would say, if you are a frontline manager right now, how can I figure this shit out? So I don't fall into the traps that so many people have and get the downward pressure and everything else. Is there one thing that you would say, do at least start focusing on this or do this more?

Yeah. It's the reminder that you've got to win through your people, not on your own. And if you come to grips with that truth that you win through them, not on your own, that will help you prioritize your calendar to get those two high impact activities on there, sitting down, holding them accountable. And then the coaching where you're proactively developing them, because that's going to move the needle on both the culture, accountability wise, high performance and results in terms of coaching, make them do better. And all the busyness and all the stuff the company wants you to do is nice. But at the end of the year, if your team doesn't make its number, John said you might get fired and no one's going to give you a pass because you went to all the meetings and checked all the boxes and you were a good corporate soldier sitting in all those virtual sessions, they're going to look at your team's number.

So you got to be laser focused on results and pipeline and remember you win through your people. And if you don't master that, you're never going to enjoy the job and you're never going to have any quality of life because you'll work 80 hours a week. So that's the bottom line there. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, I'm one of those, you know what I mean? That fell into that trap. I was working 89 hours a week and taking on all the responsibility because, you know, and I just, because I was a player coach, I didn't have quote unquote time to coach because I had to close deals and it never worked out. And I remember hiring and fired six reps in my early career. And I was just like, you know, my, unfortunately my management style early on my career was keep up.

It was literally keep up. It's if you pay attention, I will teach you everything, but you got to follow along and you got to pay attention to what I'm doing right now because I don't have time to slow down and actually do this. And obviously that's not exactly the best way to, to approach the growth and scale to use, to your point earlier of, of a really, really good functioning, well-functioning team that drives results on a consistent basis. That's really good. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. This is a total treat. Yeah. It was a fun conversation. Like where, where can people find out my, I mean, obviously there's a Amazon, right? First time sales manager anywhere else. First time manager, first time manager sales.

Yeah. First time manager sales and it's on Amazon. Lots of reviews already there. You can check those out. You can find me at mikeweinberg.com, W E I N B E R G. And on the socials, it's Mike underscore Weinberg. So that's where they can check it out. Perfect. Well, appreciate you coming on, man. Let's let, let's have another conversation sometime here soon. Cause I look forward to it and good luck to your Celtics this season. Yeah. We'll see. They got to crack through that nut. They got to get there. I think this is the year they do it. I think this is the year too. Okay. All right. So everybody, thanks for joining. Hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the end of all these, look, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Cause no matter how bad your day goes or how bad you think it went, you go out there and make somebody smile and you know, you had a good day. So thank you all very much. And I'll see you on the other side. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough. Now to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also check out my new website, jbarrows.com. Well, you'll find even more ways to engage. There's a ton of free content and you can also get trained from me directly as an individual or for your team.

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