Myths vs. Science of Selling with Dr. Lorenzo Bizzi

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So I'm super excited to be partnering with them to give you an exclusive offer to get Otter.ai for sales today for free. Go to otter.ai, that's O-T-T-E-R dot A-I forward slash JBSales to get your free offer and start saving time and selling more effectively today. There's a beautiful quote by Einstein, and he used to say that universities don't understand what actual learning means. And he said, teaching is not about feeding people concepts, but it's about making people hungry for them. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us.

Ooh, today's conversation was a good one. This guest is someone who is taking a sledgehammer to conventional sales wisdom and backing it up with real data, which I always find interesting. Dr. Lorenzo Buszi is a professor of strategic management at Cal State Fullerton, a globally published researcher, and the author of a new book called Myths vs. Science of Selling. It's not just another sales book. This is a research-backed takedown of some of the most popular and misleading advice out there in sales today, which is always fascinating to me because, you know, being in this industry and, you know, being trained on some of this stuff early in my career and just remember being like, hey, that doesn't really make a lot of sense and it doesn't work and I don't know why this is so popular and then peeling back the layers of why that is and starting to really expose some of the trainers that I've taken information from in the past and just because it sounds good doesn't mean you should actually use it.

But we talked about why being liked by customers doesn't necessarily lead to more deals, why emotional empathy can actually hurt your performance and we talked about different types of empathy and which one's more important and why active listening isn't enough unless you're helping the buyer better understand their own problems. He kind of bridges that gap between academia and real world, which I really respect because most academics are academics and I've always had a problem with academics because of that and the real world application of it. So anyways, I think you're going to find this conversation fascinating and this is one of the books I skimmed through, I pulled out some key topics from it and I think I'm actually going to read this one.

Y'all know I'm not much of a reader, but this is one of going to be ones that I put on my list. So hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Lorenzo Busi, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How are you doing today? Perfect. How are you, John? I am doing well. I am doing well. Actually, where are you calling in from? Are you in Italy right now or? No, I'm in Los Angeles. Oh, you're in Los Angeles. Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. Perfect. But you grew up in Italy, right? That's correct. I was born and raised there and then I just went to Canada. I stayed six years there and then I moved to California. Love it. All right. So we're going to get into that, but I've been looking forward to this conversation because I've been skimming through your book here and the whole world of real world versus academics versus sales skills and tips and techniques and all the fun stuff that I'm living in and have a lot of questions about.

So I'm really interested in the research that you found in the real world application of it. So we're going to get into all that fun stuff. But Lorenzo, before we do that, I always love to know your origin story, my friend. So before, you know, we can all read LinkedIn as far as your work history, but talk to me about growing up in Italy. Talk to me about kind of your influences, your parents and what made you, you, right? And, and where'd you kind of get that itch to go off on your own, do coaching, all that fun stuff. So talk to us a little bit about growing up. So I was born in this little town in Italy. It's actually famous. It's called it in Europe, is known as a party town of, of Europe.

So I grew up in a very nice environment, very enjoyed by the beach. That's why I'm here in California. Cause I also enjoy the beach. And then I went to Milan for my university. I studied business in Milan and that's where I fell in love with academia. But the reason I fell in love with university is because in Milan, the university, where I came from, which is called Bocconi is a different university in the sense that, um, professors are also very involved with, with businesses. So they constantly help businesses. They're in board of directors. They go on television. Sometimes they're famous. So when I approached university, I saw it with a different angle compared to what generally people see universities.

And I was immediately involved in beautiful projects in which you would work for the government of Italy. So I would be, I would go to Rome to interview politicians, journalists, and to understand the practical side of research. So I was never a pure researcher in the sense that I like just the test models and find the statistics and support of hypotheses. And as I was always talking with managers or with any form of practitioners, the real question of how can we apply what we learn in research, the real situations, that's really what got my attention. So fortunately, this very high nurturing environment that I had in Milan, which is a city I love, created my passion for being a bridge, being a bridge between the world of academia, the world of the university and the world of practice, the world of the field.

And to me, that's very important because I do believe that professors spend a lot of time finding very meaningful evidence, interesting findings, but at the same time, they could be dry. So sometimes when it comes to the application of practice, it looks abstract. It does not really look something that can be applied to daily situations. And this is where the idea of writing my book came in, the attempt to try to make a bridge between the academic world, interesting but dry at the same time, and the practical world, the world that really understand what the problems are and is able to build relationships with the customers and seize the challenges of the customers. That to me is fascinating.

And if I am able to build a stronger bridge, that's where I'm at. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB Sales Membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that will be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done.

And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to JBarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code PODCAST at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. I love it. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I wish I would listen to you. I wish I would have gone to college in Milan then. Because I had the typical US experience where I would go to college and, you know, even at a young age, I would look at some of these professors and be like, okay, that again, that sounds interesting. But practically, I don't think that makes a lot of sense, right? Because I've been in business, quote unquote, for my entire life. You know, I was a waiter, I was, you know, in sales in some way, shape or form my entire career.

And every time I would learn something or hear about something and then try to apply it in the real world, it would never, it would never pin out. I mean, marketing was a perfect example. That was my degree. I got my BS in marketing. And when I got out into the real world, I realized like literally nothing that I learned in college was applicable to what I was being asked to do in the day-to-day job. And so I remember asking one, you know, MIT professor, actually, this was relatively recently. And I was very curious about what they were teaching. And, you know, afterwards, I said, wow, that's really fascinating. I'm like, just out of curiosity, like, what kind of careers do people have? Like, if they take your course, what do they do with it?

Like, what's their career path with this course? And he couldn't answer the question. He literally couldn't, well, you know, and he just kind of reverted back to what he was teaching. I'm like, so you don't even know what you're teaching and how it applies in the real world for these kids to actually get a job. And that just fundamentally bothers me. And that's what the U.S. education system, I think, is in a lot of trouble because it's not teaching them real world application. It's putting these kids in massive debt to go get a job that probably won't even be available in a few years for crying out loud with AI. Yeah, that's where I see John and the power of sales. I, myself, teach strategic management in the university.

And I've been also training CEOs, board of directors at different levels. And I like what I teach. I think it's beautiful the way in which it stimulates the minds of the students. But I teach strategic management. So I teach students how to analyze mergers and acquisitions or diversifications, vertical integration strategy. Clearly, it's not when they graduate that they're going to have any ownership of these decisions. It still, I believe, is important because it stimulates their curiosity. It stimulates their minds. And it makes them ask good questions. And it makes them love business, which is really what we want. But you're right. There tends to be a disconnect. And this is where sales becomes very useful because I believe that both sales and accounting are probably the two types of jobs in which universities can try to build a stronger bridge with practice.

And you can help them understand, really, how do you navigate a sales conversation, what can work best. And, see, it's interesting because even if I teach strategy, John, I see that B2B sales is applied strategy. So every time you have a conversation with someone in the B2B context, you really have to explain not just the benefits of your products, but see how the products or solution integrates with the problems of the company, eventually resulting in reinforcing their competitive advantage or their profitability. So, really, sales is applied strategy at the B2B level. And this is where it becomes fascinating because you can really try to see how you can have a conversation and explain to your buyers how the products and services eventually improve the profitability of the business.

Well, and I think also what you talked about there, too, is the business acumen side of the house, right? And we'll get into the tactics and kind of the misnomers of certain things that we'll get into. But I tell reps all the time, if you want to improve your sales right now, tips, techniques, whatever, you know, fine. Improve your business acumen. Improve your ability to have a business conversation about why it matters. Who cares? Where's that? So, if you can have that, which is why I think the education component of the mergers and acquisitions and understanding, and I'll give you a perfect example here. You know, we talk about trigger events here in sales, right? Where you got to find a trigger event to be relevant and personalized when you reach out to somebody, right?

And one of them is mergers and acquisitions. And so, a lot of, I mean, average sales reps don't even look for that. They send out their blast template emails, whatever. Slightly above average reps will find that trigger event and then make a connection. Hey, Lorenzo, I saw you just went through a merger. I'd love to talk to you about how we can help you do this, right? But they don't understand the phases of a merger. They don't understand the timing of what's happening at the different stages. And so, their messaging is almost always off. And so, understanding that helps them have more context for the message that they're going to deliver. Absolutely. You see, this is fantastic because a lot of recommendations that we hear for sales are about how you look credible.

What can you say? What is the script? What can you say so that you have an appearance of being a credible person? What about actually being credible? And to be actually credible, you need to understand what you're talking about. Not just have words that somehow create an impression that you're credible, an impression that you understand. No, you actually have to understand. So, you don't have to portray expertise. You have to have the expertise. And this is one that really is going to make the difference. Because when you have the conversation, the person you're talking to realizes you're not just following a script. So, exactly as you were saying, John, all these beautiful little tactics of say this, say that, they partially work.

They might eventually improve your closing rate by, I don't know, 3% to 5%. But expertise, real expertise, which is understanding business, this is what can create a connection. This is what can create a communication. And they want to see that you're actually an expert person that makes them understand better their problems. And this is where you establish a connection. So, I think I know your answer to this one, but I'm going to ask it anyways. What's your impression or perception of fake it till you make it? Right? Where, like, that whole thing of, like, to your point, the perception of, you know, being credible. It's like, oh, no, no, no, I get it. Versus the vulnerability of not knowing.

And right now, the gap between the two, because, and one more piece of context to this, I think the days of, historically, sales reps, if you ask me a question, the credible thing to do, if I don't know is, hey, Lorenzo, I don't know that. But I'm going to go figure that out for you, okay? That was valid before the, definitely before the internet, but, and maybe before AI. But now with AI, I don't think that lands because I, as a buyer, can get that answer almost immediately. So, for you as a sales rep to say, I don't know, let me get back to you, is not exactly the great answer. But faking it until you make it doesn't work either. So, where are you on that line of, especially younger sales reps, right?

I think older sales reps who have contacts can figure this out. But the younger ones who don't have the business acumen, who don't have the understanding of the organization, how do you, how do you toe that line? So, that's a beautiful question. I think there is a trade-off, John. On the one side, what does faking until you make it means? So, you insist, insist until you convince yourself that maybe you're credible, even if you're not a credible person. Now, there is an issue that is important and that we also study in research, which is the concept of sales self-efficacy. The idea that people have confidence, all right? So, the fake it until you make it, as a positive side, which is that it helps build confidence.

And the buyers can sniff your confidence. So, if you are uncertain and that shows uncertainty, that is a very major problem when you're doing the sales conversation. I'm going to give you an example. See, people always say that, say, you have to be an extrovert in sales, right? And it is not true. Introverts sell very well. As a matter of fact, there's six types of extroversion. But one of them really matters to sales. And that is called assertive extroversion. And it's the fact that a lot of times introverts take a little bit more time to think before they talk. And this is perceived as lack of confidence. Okay? And this is bad. Because if you're talking to a buyer, they sniff it out immediately.

What do you have? Do I have confidence? So, the fake it until you make it as a positive side, which is that it helps build confidence. And you talk with people, with buyers, expressing more confidence. Then you get more attention. Okay? That's a good side. The bad side is the learning. The fact that you said you need to embrace your vulnerabilities. Because your vulnerabilities are what allow you to ask constant questions. And allowing you to ask constant questions is really what makes you constantly learn. And beat AI. Otherwise, it's not going to work out exactly as you say. So, there are pros and cons. And we have to be able to find a perfect ground to empower the benefits. While at the same time, constantly embrace a learning orientation.

It all can work if we keep the confidence. But at the same time, exactly as you said, embrace our vulnerabilities and constantly ask ourselves questions so that we can keep on learning. Because you know what AI is going to do? It's going to make value of information depreciate extremely fast. So, unless we constantly learn, constantly, for example, see, look at your podcast and constantly ask questions. That is the key for us to stay ahead. Otherwise, it's not going to work out. Well, it's also, I think curiosity brought it up a couple of times is one of the key just characteristics I think we all need to have. Because I keep saying this and probably people are sick of me saying it on the podcast.

But my fear is we've gone from a search engine to an answer engine. And for somebody who's curious and who has business acumen, it's a superpower because it's like, tell me more about this. Where did this come from? Give me a different perspective here, right? But for the vast majority of our population who are just lazy as shit, they're going to take that answer, copy and paste it, and say it or do it. And I think I'm like terrified about the learning component of this when used the wrong way for AI. But on the flip side, used the right way, I think it actually could be such a superpower even for the younger generation. I'll give you a quick example. If I'm now sitting in this conversation with you and you're a potential client of mine, hopefully my company has already kind of created their own internal AI bot that has a lot of the answers to it.

And so when you ask me a question, instead of me pretending I don't know or getting some overlay on my screen to pretend like I'm the smart kid, I'm just going to be like, hey, you know what, Lorenzo? That's a great question. I don't know about that. Let's open up our internal GPT here and figure that out. And like literally sharing together that as opposed to pretending like I know the answer, but using your critical thought to say, okay, that's almost right. But here's how I think it might apply to you. And that to me is the beautiful thing for people who are genuinely curious enough to try to figure this stuff out. Yeah, you said the right words, genuinely curious. A lot of times you hear these recommendations and sales, again, ask questions that show curiosity.

So you have scripts to show curiosity, but you don't show curiosity with scripted questions. You show curiosity by really digging into the problems and really showing that you're genuinely interested in understanding the situation because business conversations are primarily fascinating. So if I am talking with a seller and that seller shows that it's kind of really cool to figure out what your problem is and to figure out if there can be a bridge between my solution and your problem. It really is fun. So if people go there with this attitude, it works with this genuine curiosity. As another important thing I'd like to say, when we look at evidence, are the most effective sellers those who, for instance, care to be better than others or those who care to be better than their former selves?

And the answer is the latter. So the salespeople that are constantly motivated to improve, to get better than they were before, to better understand the problems, they tend to perform better than those who just wants to be better than the fellow sellers. That's what's working out. Are you a Simon Sinek fan? Uh, yes. So that's the whole concept of infinite game, right? His book, Infinite Game, which is the finite game versus the infinite game. The finite game is there's a winner and a loser, there's a beginning and an end, and I'm trying to beat you, right? The infinite game is you're just trying to stay in the game. And I've always had the mentality, I remember early in my career, I was so fixated on beating my competition, right?

I was just, oh, I was so, I had to beat my competition because I wanted to win. And what I realized, thankfully, at a relatively early age is that when I, I would lose deals because I was trying to beat my, and what was happening was I was focusing on more than beating my, competition than selling to the clients. Yes. And so I stopped caring about my competition. Everybody who says to me is like, well, John, who's your competition? I'm like, me, period. If I lose a deal, it's because either I wasn't good enough or I wasn't the right fit. And so I either have to get better myself at my skills and everything else, or I need to find clients who are a better fit for what I have. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

I mean, it's a wonderful example. You forget, like, who's your competition? Me. I even forget what the others are saying, and I try to concentrate on myself. And then you focus more on the clients, like you said. The less you focus on the other people, on the competition of the other sellers, the better you focus on the client. But you know that a lot of times organizations, then they pit you one against the other. It's normal to try to create this internal competition in the belief that internal competition raises the level of the game for everyone. And it doesn't always work. But sometimes even the compensation systems themselves, they encourage this. They encourage competition. So that's why you need to have an internal system that somehow pushes you to deliver better.

So let's go back to curiosity, because I've asked this a lot on my podcast, and I think you're probably one of the better persons to ask the question, too, because you've researched it. You know, and again, I want to hone in on genuine curiosity. I've asked the question, is it nature or nurture? Is it like, are you born genuinely curious or can you become genuinely curious and learn to be curious? My general sense is I think you are born naturally curious. Like, I think truly curious people are born curious. Like, for me, I don't learn through education. I don't learn by reading manuals. I don't learn by going to class. I learn by this. Like, this is the main reason I started my podcast was because I learned by talking to people who are smarter than me.

And I know I'm not smart enough, but I'm genuinely curious to figure out the answer. So I'm trying to get to it. But can you teach genuine curiosity? I absolutely believe, yes. But I do also believe in, John, we were talking about the limitations of academia and the university system. There's a beautiful quote by Einstein. And he used to say that universities don't understand what actual learning means. And he said, teaching is not about feeding people concepts, but it's about making people hungry for them. And that is the most important thing. We don't have to go there and tell people what to do. That's the mistake. So, see, for example, if you mind, I go back to the idea of the book. In the book, the whole point is not to tell what is right or wrong.

It's the idea of stimulating the reader by showing two opposite points of view. This is what research shows. And this is what practice says. They are different. What do you think? And then you're asking the reader to think. So, if you tell people what to do, of course, they're not going to nurture their curiosity. But if you stimulate them with different points of view, then they're more likely to embrace it. Any recommendation is their recommendation. And that is when it becomes effective. So, I truly believe as an educator that you can nurture enormously the curiosity. But the mistake people do is that they believe education is feeding people concepts. I tell you what you have to do. I give you frameworks.

No, that's not the real thing. You have to make people hungry for the concepts. You have to make them stimulating points of view, different points of view. And then you ask and you trigger their brain by asking them who's likely to be right. And then they're forced to think. And human beings love to think, while human beings don't love to be told what they have to do. So, if I have to tell you what you have to do, it's not going to work out. But if I make you think, that's intrinsically rewarding. And that intrinsic reward is what nurtures your passion for curiosity. So, make people think. Make people love to think. And they will naturally become curious. That's absolutely true. And I think that, so I take this similar track to it, which is, you're never going to be curious about something unless you're interested in it.

So, I can't get you to be curious, but I can get you to be interested in it. And that's what, you see this all the time where kids, like my daughter right now is in high school. And, you know, she doesn't know what she doesn't know with all the different, you know, studies out there or classes or courses that she could take. And all of a sudden, she gets into chemistry, right? And her teacher is just, lights her up and gets her like, oh my God, this is interesting. Like, how does this work? And now she's curious and now she wants to learn more. And I think that's the key is like, if I can get you interested. And it's almost, you say it in the book a couple of times, you know, if I can make it your idea as opposed to mine.

It's like, you ever seen the movie Inception with us? Like, I love that movie, right? And it's going deep in the subconscious to get that, to make it your idea, not mine. And that's why, you know, I'm sure you're aware of Challenger Sale, right? I never really bought into Challenger Sale because the arrogance of it and the way it was delivered, at least, of like, hey, effectively, I'm smarter than you. You know, there's the lead with insights, whatever. But hey, you know, I make this decision hundreds of times a year. You make it once a year. So my application of Challenger Sale is always just to ask you questions to get you to the point where you're like, huh, that's a – because I tell reps, if you can ask a question to somebody and get them to pause for a second and go, huh, that's interesting.

I wonder why you asked. You know what I mean? And get them to think, like, you added value to their life. And it's beautiful. And then still, you still relate it to the point that genuine curiosity comes from interest. And that brings the original question of, so do you control interest of people are born with natural interests? In part, people are born with natural interests. But this is where having important mentors, important figures in your life can enormously shape your interest. Because if I go to my students and I tell them, are you interested in sales? A lot of them get scared. It says, no, do I have to sell products or something? But what if you rephrase it as you discussed it before?

So what if you say that selling is about, as inception, bringing an idea inside the mind of a person? Now, isn't that a fascinating thing? Isn't that a fascinating, the idea that you can have conversations with folks and help them understand better their own problems? Isn't that beautiful? So the way in which you frame itself, any profession, as a function of the, see the coaches, the mentors, the people that you encounter in your life, completely changes your perspective. I see my students, they start my class, they hate business because they see it dry. And I try to show them that, no, it can really be stimulating. The fact that you can help people figure out how to do better things, why isn't that cool?

That is objectively cool. And if you learn how to frame it well, I think that you can raise interests on a lot of things. There's a perception reality of sales, right? I mean, the perception because the movies and all the other stuff out there. But I always tell people that, look, if you're trying to convince someone in sales, you're doing it wrong. Sales is about helping people solve problems and achieve goals. That's it. And so if that's interesting to you, then it should be interesting to you to figure out this profession. And by the way, we're all in sales because we all sell ourselves every day. So you better figure it out and get that negative perception out of the way. So let's get into the book because there are some, I'm very curious on a few things, right?

You start with the popularity problem, which is just rampant in the sales training world, which is something that sounds really good. And people still do it, but it doesn't work. And nobody pays attention to it. And a perfect example with me was, you know, when I joined my previous sales training company, there was some stuff like how to make a cold call, how to do that, right? And the framework was interesting to me. It was different. Like you didn't even say your name first. So if I was cold calling you, Lorenzo, I'd be like, hey, Lorenzo, thanks for taking my call real quick. The reason I'm calling is I was on your website and I was doing some research on you. And I noticed this and it would just like come bull rush right in, right?

And I was like, huh, that's, that's a little odd, you know? Okay. So I tried it and I tried it a hundred, literally a hundred times because I'm like now training this. I got to know, apparently it's good, right? It didn't work for me. Right. So I kept getting interrupted. I'm sorry. Who is this? What do you want? Years later, I talked to my mentor who came up with it and he tells the story of how, of why he like that approach worked for him. But it was literally in one instance, it was one scenario that he used it and then built a whole curriculum around it. And I think that is just endemic of our entire industry. It's like some idiot like me says something, what the hell, whatever it is. And it, holy shit, is like a magic unlock box.

And then I do it maybe two or three more times to validate it. And now it's all of a sudden a training module. So what are some of the kind of historical popular things that are out there that you think that you found that people are still using that just fundamentally don't work? I'd like to say an important thing that you said before because I think it's essential to understand the reason for the book that I wrote. The idea of the popularity and the idea, something extremely beautiful that you said, a concept that worked for one person in a specific situation suddenly does not work for many other people in different situations. But you see, the real idea is that nowadays to produce content has become so easy that in order to get attention, people, gurus, influencers, even authors of books, they have to exaggerate concepts.

So if something works for them, they don't tell you, well, this might increase your sales by 5%. They all tell you this is the secret for absolute stardom, success, and glory. And this is where there is a gap between what research shows and what a lot of popular tactics say. This is the reason. And I kind of understand it. You see, John, in this world in which everybody competes for your attention, what is the only way for you to get attention? Just be sensational. Exaggerate the claims. A lot of times those claims are actually true, but they have a very little impact. They don't have the impact that is claimed to be the most amazing and glorious things that is supposed to happen. That is not true.

So this is why I believe it's important to compare. In the end, when we talk about research, it's nothing but data on thousands and thousands of salespeople combined together. They have done a certain action. Does it work? Does it not work? In the different contexts. This is it. Also because a famous person sometimes might do the opposite of what other people should do, and it still works. If you look at, you know, Elon Musk, if you look at, you know, Steve Jobs, it used to do the very opposite of what people say in leadership you have to do. But it was Steve Jobs. It works if you're a genius, but try to see if someone like me does that. It doesn't work. So a lot of times gurus are not representative of the general population, and this is why there can be a difference, a gap between the myths and the actual science of selling.

But then you ask me to bring an example of something that is popular and that is not entirely what research shows. I'm going to bring the example of the idea that you need to be liked by your buyer. So the concept that buyers don't really buy the products, they buy you, so they need to like you. Okay, this is true. This is absolutely true. But what does liking mean? So when you dig into the liking, you find a lot of interesting tactics such as, you know, showing that you're agreeable, showing that you like their interests, even if you completely hate their interests. So a lot of these cute things that you're sociable, you're warm, you're a nice person, they don't work, or at least they work to get more attention from the buyer.

True. Okay. And attention is beautiful in the earlier part of the sales conversation. But when it comes to closing, it's completely irrelevant. Because if you think about it, if I give you more attention, if your product is good, then I buy. But if I give you more attention and the product is bad, then I see it. So I understand that the product is bad and I'm actually less likely to buy. So being liked and all these cute things in which you have to show laugh when they're laughing, compliment them all the time. This gets your attention, which is good at the beginning of the sales conversation, but it does not get you to close. So what really is the liking that influences? The liking that matters is you show that you're organized.

You show that you're mindful of their time. You show that you're not wasting their time. You're direct, straight to the point, and you lower their uncertainty as they perceive it around the product. This is what gets you to close. Well, so two parts of that. Well, one is I always say I don't care about being liked. I care about being trusted. I want them to trust me because there's plenty of people that I like, but I don't necessarily trust for my business or anything like that. And there's people that I trust that I wouldn't exactly have a beer with. And so I'd rather trust you in business than necessarily – now, I can't hate you. I can't think that you are – loathe you. Like, that's a piece of it.

So you have to be like a bull. But to me, like is more about trust. But you brought up something as far as being direct, being respectful of their time. How much does the psychology of the personality of the person you're selling to come into play there? And the reason I bring that up is, you know, disc profiles, Myers-Briggs, all these different things, different personality profiles obviously connect with different personality profiles. And I always say, you know, I'm John Burroughs from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm about as direct and in your face as it gets when it comes to selling. But if I don't adjust my style to the person that I am selling to, like if I'm going down here in the south of the United States and I go down to Georgia or, you know, something like that.

And I take my very direct, you know, respect your time. Here's an agenda. Here's what we talk. Like those people will just be like, oh, no. So how do you balance that approach, right, respecting the time and all those other things with the personality of the person you're selling to? And how important is that from a sales standpoint? Absolutely true. So the key here is to learn to read the personality of the people you talk to. So there's not one best approach for selling, but learn to understand their personality and respond to that. For example, should you disclose personal information? Should you talk about your personal life with a buyer? Yes or no? If they start and they are talking about it, then the answer is yes.

But you don't initiate yourself and you don't go personal if you don't see that they respond positively to that. So you can test it a little bit, warm it up and see how they respond to this and see if they are people that want to build rapport. Some people really like that. Some people say maybe you don't know what happens. It's not just personality per se, but it could be maybe they hate their job and they just want to talk to someone and feel that there's humans behind transactions. So you test it. Maybe with a little question you see and you need to learn how to read their answer. If their answer is just like, oh, yeah, good. I'm having a good time. And then you know that they're pushing back so that they know they may be transactional people.

Some people like to be transactional and some people like to be personable. The key for the sellers is to read their personality and to be able to ask a few questions and see how they respond. It's also important to see not just the personality, but their feelings the moment you talk with them. They're moved. OK, for example, I'm going to go. This is interesting. A lot of times we hear, should you use exaggerated adjectives when you're in sales? Oh, this is the greatest opportunity ever. Or should you be more like, you know, calm? You know, this is a good opportunity, but this is not the best thing of your life. So should you use exaggerated adjectives or should you be more modest? The answer is it depends on the mood of the buyer.

If the buyer is actually in a good mood, that could fit well with the use of loaded adjectives. But if the buyer is in a neutral mood or definitely the buyer looks in a bad mood, then forget about exaggerations. They really don't work out. So and reading the mood is something that you can be trained to see. So both reading personality and reading mood is something that you can learn to do and you always have to adjust your sales conversation to both the personality and the mood of the persons you're talking to. Yeah, I think I mean, exactly how I approach things when I when I start conversations, I always do my homework to make sure that I have a thoughtful question that shows I've done my homework on the business.

Right. And I and a lot of times I won't even let them guess. I'll be like, hey, Lorenzo, you know, as I was preparing for our conversation today, I was doing and I noticed this. I was kind of curious. How are you? Right. And I ask a very open ended question that should solicit a rather not a lengthy response, but not a yes or no answer. And literally their answer to that question dictates the path that I take with them. Right. Because if they're just like, yeah, yeah, it's no big deal. Whatever. OK, cool. We are here in business. Here's a few things I want to talk about. You still have 30 minutes. Fantastic. Let's go. Right. Versus. Oh, and they go on about this whole thing. It's like, OK, this person now I can slow down a little bit and I can engage with them a little bit.

But that that does take a little bit of experience, I think, to learn that stuff. Right. Absolutely. Awesome. All right. Let's talk about this one, man. The one trait that actually predicts sales success. So there's a personality trait that gets ignored and you talk about it a lot. And I think it's conscientiousness. Yes. Can we talk a little bit about, first of all, what is it and why is it ignored? And then how do you look for it? Yeah. So conscientiousness is exactly what we were talking about, the ability of being organized and the ability to appear organized, to set the goals, to see which activities lead to results and to help the client understand very clearly what has to be done and be mindful of their time.

So you're very organized. If I can find another word for conscientiousness, it's organized. Why is it overlooked? Because most of the times when we look at the personality traits that are discussed in sales, they're all the social traits. All right. They're all the social traits. And how do you interact with the others? How do you like the others? And actually, conscientiousness is very individual. Very inside of you is how you are able to not waste time, not be distracted. And not a big deal. It's always the structure of the place. Conscientiousness is not distracted. It understands how activities lead to results. It understands how goal setting is important. You have to strive to achieve results.

So this is the part that buyers can like because if they see that you're organized, you want to do business with people that are organized. And I think a beautiful thing about conscientiousness is that more than any personality trait, the other personality trait, it shows professionalism. And that is a beautiful thing. You want to have to do business with folks that are professional. It doesn't mean that they still have to be nice. They can still be warm if they want. But the number one thing, they have to be professional individuals. And how do I gauge professionalism? Whether you are organized. Because if you're organized, then the sales conversation is also more conducive. It's not a waste of your time.

But it really goes straight to what we have to do. It really goes to the point of what really matters. So show them that you're organized. And be that. That is, by the way, also important for you, regardless of the moments in which you're interacting with the buyers. It is also important for your ability to see how to organize better your time and not waste it. How much do you have to spend on prospecting? Which activities are likely to lead to the better results? So organization is at the basis of creating personal accountability. And then if you create personal accountability, that's primarily what allows you to improve and constantly learn and get better. So help me unpack this one a little bit then.

My mentor, so I'll give you a quick example on organization, right? You know, using agendas to guide conversations, obviously, right? You know, not a detailed one, but, you know, a couple of flow. Like, here's a few things I want to make sure that we cover. And then one of the things I always do is I send a summary email, right? And it's like after this conversation, I'll say, hey, Lorenzo, you know, thank you so much for your time. Next steps and action items. I'm going to go, I'm going to briefly summarize what I was able to key highlights here and send it over. Could you give me a favor and email me back to let me know if it's all accurate and if I missed anything. And what that does is that just does their job for them because they probably didn't take notes, right?

So I, and to me, it's one of the best indicators of me holding you accountable, like all these fun things. But my mentor who I would consider an artist in sales, and I, and I actually consider very few percentage of the sales population as those pure artists. And when I mean that, I mean like not in the sleazy way, but I mean legitimately just knows what questions to ask, know where to spend their time, knows how to, you know, and get, it's like it's, you watch like Picasso doing what he does. And, and, and he talks a lot about social equivalents here. And, and his perception is like popularity, like I'm more, you might be smarter than me, but I'm more popular than you. And he doesn't want to put himself as a social contract lower than the person he's dealing with.

And his perception is doing those type of admin-y type things, you know, you know, sending summary emails, you know, following up with people, those type of things are lowering your social status compared to the person, right? You're putting yourself, hey, I'm basically begging for your business, or I really want your business, so I'm going to do all these things versus you and I are peers, we're going to figure this out together. And, you know, whether you, you know, and, and, you know, it's your choice, not mine type of thing. So where are you on the social equivalents versus a lot of the organizational things that are typically a little bit more lower in stature, if you will? Yeah. No, I think this is a fantastic point.

I completely agree that the social equivalents is essential. And a lot of times a major mistake that sellers do is that they put themselves at the lower level. You are the client, you are the king, and I do whatever, whatever, whatever you want, because you're supposed to like it. But it's not true. People want to do business with people that are the same level. So you have to treat them at the same level. I completely agree. But I do believe still that what you're doing, so reaching out to them and maybe sending an email, of course, we can find a way to craft the email in a better way. That does not necessarily mean that you're putting yourself at a lower level because you're still trying to collaborate with them and you're still trying to find a way to help them.

Because what is essential, and this is, I think, is beautiful, of putting yourself at the same level. Instead of seeing it, showing it, that I am the salesperson, you are the buyer, so I'm lower than you. How about we are at the same level and I am trying to convince, to help you bring the argument of my product to your bosses? You see, that a sales conversation is primarily, you know, you have 10 people involved. So what you have to consider is, how can I help you bring the argument of these products to the committee, to your bosses, so that we can have a conversation and I can convince you to buy the product? And you know why this is great? This is great because, and I believe this is a powerful point, you shouldn't consider that you are just selling a product to a buyer.

You are selling an opportunity for influence of the buyer as an individual inside the organization. When you help them understand better their problems, they take that and they go to their bosses, showing that they better understand the problems. This gives them an enormous visibility inside the company. Organizations don't exist. There's just people that are all of their individual goals and their individual needs. Now, instead of putting yourself at the lower level, you put it in yourself at the same level and you make them understand that the conversation is going to give them visibility inside the organization. Now you're giving me advantages because maybe you can get my influence increase inside the organization.

Now I see you as a peer. You help me understand better my problem. That's great. See, another important thing and a major mistake that I see a lot of times, the idea of understanding problems. Most of the salespeople believe that they understand the buyer's problem, but you ask the same questions to buyers and they say absolutely no. And the reason is because the majority of the recommendations on understanding buyer's problems focus on active listening. You nod, you agree, you give validation, you repeat what they're saying, you paraphrase. That's not understanding the problem. You really have to dig in there and help the client see the causes of the problem. You don't have to look smarter than them.

You have to make them feel smarter so that then they will bring the point inside the organization and they will get more influence. And everybody will want to do business with you. I love that. All right, let's finish up on this one because I'm curious, you know, the empathy. You know, the double-edged sword you talk about in the book. I always say the number one thing I think you need to be successful in sales is a belief in what you do. If you do not believe that what you do makes a genuine difference for the right person, then you're just a jackass sales rep, right? And so, therefore, you have to care. And that's the other thing. It's like, I can't get you to care. But once you care, I will give you everything until you get to the point where you're in.

So, let's talk about that. Because empathy, again, it's one of those conscientiousness, empathy. These are things that are hard to identify. They're hard to teach. But talk to us about that double-edged sword of what empathy, caring too much, especially for younger sales professionals. Yeah. So, there's two points in here. I like to separate. The concept of empathy and the concept of caring could actually be two different things, okay? So, the concept of empathy, at least the way in which we explain it in class, is either effective empathy, in which you're able to feel what the other person feels, or cognitive empathy, in which you understand what the other person feels. This is regardless of how much you care for them, huh?

So, it's interesting that one of them has a positive impact on sales, while the other has a negative impact on sales. And it's effective empathy, curiously and oddly enough, the one that has a negative impact. If you feel what the other people feel, that's actually not good. But if you understand what other people feel, that's great. So, feeling what other people feel is dangerous. Why? Because, for example, if they get frustrated, you get frustrated back. See, empathy is also that if they are angry, you get angry back. So, you are feeling the same things that they feel. It's related to mirror neurons in your brain. And that's not really awesome. Even if they're very happy, you're also happy.

High-level emotions might bias the decision-making, and it's not good. But cognitive empathy, so understanding what other people feel, that is fantastic. And the reason is because words can be deceiving. People can always, and buyers do that all the time. Oh, yeah, I'm very interested. Sure, so I'll follow up with you after. And then they disappear. So, words can be deceiving. But if you can actually feel, sorry, feel, you understand their feelings, then you can better see how the conversation is going. And then there's the issue of caring. Now, when it comes to caring, first, just saying that you care means nothing. You have to prove that you care. So, you have to put effort. Okay? This is a beautiful thing.

But then it can lead to some problems for sales professionals in the earlier stages of their career, which is that if they care too much, they spend too much effort in the later parts of the sales conversation. So, if I spend too much time caring for you because it's not enough to tell that you care, that becomes a problem because you're not really effectively organizing your time. So, this is less of a problem when you become experienced, someone like you, that you can be very efficient. But at the beginning is a major mistake. And you know also why. Because think about it. This is a great paradox. The more you care for someone, the more it hurts when you get rejected. Yeah. And you know that the prospecting part is painful to be rejected.

So, if you really genuinely care, that makes it super problematic when at the beginning, as you start and you don't have experience, you get rejected by everyone. And that hurts so bad. So, that's why there are pros and cons associated with the caring aspect. It's fascinating. It is. Talk to me. Let's dig a little bit deeper on empathy. How can a sales rep develop empathy for clients? And in context, for instance, you know, I always use the example of the 22, 23-year-old kid who's selling cybersecurity to CISOs, right? So far, like some kid who probably got C grades all the way through, you know, university, knows nothing about technology, has never met a CISO in their life. And yet, now they have to have conversations with these level of people to talk about cybersecurity, something that they're not educated in, or their business gave them, you know, some onboarding training about what the speeds and feeds of their stuff does.

So, how does that rep go about developing empathy for the buyer? So, if we think empathy in terms of effective empathy, like I said before, the one you don't want, this is generally natural. So, cognitive empathy, which is understanding what other people feel, that can be learned, okay? Now, remember that when I say empathy, I say it different from caring, and I say it simply on the feeling side of the buyer and to be able to understand their feelings. And there are possibilities. People can be trained to read other person's feelings. It's not difficult, because even from the way in which we talk, from the tone in which we talk, from the nonverbal behaviors, is it possible to understand other people's feelings?

Now, hear me what's important. A lot of times, when we talk with someone, we are focused on what we're saying. In our mind, we are thinking, okay, the person is saying this, I'm already preparing my answer. So, I'm not actually wasting, not wasting time, I'm not spending time understanding what is behind the words of the person that are talking to me. So, my concentration goes already in what do I have to say to reply. This is the problem. We don't get empathy when we're constantly thinking about this script, and we're constantly, okay, this person said, A, I have to reply by B. I have to check out the book. I have to see the training. So, in my mind, you're only and entirely focused not on the person, but on yourself.

This is the big deal. You don't focus. You can understand other people's feelings if you focus really on them. But if your brain is constantly reflecting and thinking and anticipating what I have to say after, then you're focusing on yourself, and you're not focusing on them, and it makes it impossible to establish something. Very interesting. All right, Lorenzo, look, I got, I mean, we talked about listening, too much focus on the customer, the script and the trap and the process, closing technique. There was all these other things I wanted to get to. So, we're probably going to have to do a part two on this one, my friend. With enormous pleasure. To keep on, just to keep in the time slot here for the rest of the group.

But why don't we talk to me about where people can find out more information about the work you're doing. I mean, I know you're absolutely, you're one of the top professors. Where did I read that? Like, didn't you get a ridiculous award or something? Yeah, I won my best. I was a finalist for the best instructor of all the California State Universities twice. But that's, man. Congratulations, man. So, where can people find out more about your class, about your book, about all the work you're doing? Because I think this bridge between the academic side versus the reality side, I think, is such an important bridge here. And I desperately try to address that in my trainings all the time. So, I think my audience will love some more information on this.

What can I find out more? You're very kind. You're very kind, John. So, the book is this, if I'm not sure. Myth versus Science of Selling. You can find it on Amazon. It's very easy because just remember Myths, Science of Selling, and it will come out. So, that will be the easiest way to get the book. Then, see, I have my website, too. So, it's lorenzobuzzi.com. First name is last name. Here I provide, every other day, I have a new article that is nice in which I put my ideas. So, if anyone is interested in checking that out, I think it could be interesting, specifically the part on the articles in which every other day I put a thought. And sometimes it could be interesting. So, that, I guess, that's what you want.

You can check out my personal website, lorenzobuzzi.com. And then, of course, Myths versus Science of Selling, which is my book that I hope can potentially stimulate the interest of some of your audience. Love it. Awesome, my friend. Well, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. I really do appreciate it. It was an absolute pleasure for me, too, John. Thank you, Lorenzo. And everybody, hopefully, you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I said, at the end of all of these interviews and great conversations, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day.

And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So, thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now, and I can't thank you enough. Now, to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me if you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter, where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day just like you.

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