Rupal Patel: From CIA to CEO - Leadership and Self-Discovery

I'm not going to make my values a sort of a thought exercise. Again, the way I look at my values is what have I done? Like, what are my actions saying that I value? And then I get to claim those as my values. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Now, today's guest is Rupal Patel. She's an ex-CIA, two-time CEO, international speaker, crisis leadership expert, was named one of the most influential women of 2023. Oh, and she's the author of a brand new best-selling book called From CIA to CEO, The Unconventional Lessons for Thinking Bigger, Leading Better, and Being Bolder.

This was such an interesting conversation. She talked about how her background as a quiet introvert who got picked on a lot as a kid and racism and everything else, and how that ended up becoming her superpower, and that her weirdness is actually what eventually got her a job in the CIA, where she was dropped into war zones and had to brief military generals on various intel and strategies, which is absolutely bananas to me. So as the conversation unfolded, we talked about self-awareness and how confidence is driven by competence, and how both of us have a disdain for the whole fake it till you make it. She also talked about leveraging the power of non-conforming. So I had to get her perspective on knowing the rules before you break them.

We've all heard a lot of people are breaking the rules. Well, you kind of have to know them before you break them. So as a non-conformist, you know, what's your structure? And that's, again, how do we provide structure that allows for the right type of non-conformity, if you will. And from there, we dove into things like values, goal-setting, and living an absolute life versus a relative life. This conversation was packed full of advice, lessons, and ideas we can all use to become better, more authentic leaders in our own way. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Rupal Patel, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. How are you? I'm ready to make it happen.

I love it. You are definitely somebody who's made it happen over the years. As I was doing my homework on your journey here, which is pretty cool, CIA to CEO. But even before that, we've got a lot of stuff that I want to talk about as far as what you've learned about leadership and the CIA. But as always on all the podcasts that I do here, I always want to know your origin story. Like, where did you get the itch? How did you become you? Parents, what did they do? I know you grew up in New York, and then you went to some college. You know, we could talk about that stuff. But I always just want to know, like, where did Rupal come from? Wow, that's an existential question. So, yeah, where did I come from?

I guess, sort of relevant to our conversation, I think the best place to start is that I was always, perhaps surprisingly to many who know me now, lived a very rich inner world. So I wasn't very outgoing. I wasn't very sociable for most of my early life in particular. I was really, really shy and really just not comfortable in crowds. And so it always felt like I was more comfortable being a wallflower than anything else. And I think that that level, some of it was just sort of painful self-consciousness and not really self-awareness, but self-consciousness. And also just never really feeling like I fit in anywhere. And so what I think that did for me, you know, if I can sort of give meaning in retrospect, is it made me just really observant.

I think I am perhaps by nature, a very observant human being, but when you're not part of the crowd, when you're not part of like, you know, what the action is that's going on and you're just sort of around you, it really made me just very observant about like, well, what is happening, right? Like I'm not in it, but I can see like, these are the dynamics over there and that's what's happening over here. And it just gave me, I guess, a training in a way of just paying attention to what's happening around me when everybody else is making a lot of noise and, you know, sort of trying to get attention. For me, it was like, okay, well, what are the underlying dynamics here, right? And is it safe for me to sort of dip my toe in or is it not?

Or, you know, what are the angles that are being played out? And I know that sounds very sophisticated when I was like five and six years old, sort of in a corner at a party that was probably not that deep, but I think that's where some of it comes from because even now, you know, when I'm, and this is even before the CIA, when I'm out and about in crowds or in groups or even just at restaurants, like it's not that I'm eavesdropping on other conversations, but I have a very, very astute sort of situational awareness. And it's not just the situation like interpersonally with the people that I'm with, but also like what's happening around me, the dynamics, the shifts and the energy and the patterns and that and the people and, and just sort of paying attention in that way.

That's always just been like a hum in the background. And so I guess, and again, some of this, it's hard to know what led to what, but what that led me to pursue when I was making concrete choices and conscious choices were areas of, I guess, careers, really, even again, sort of where there was an element of curiosity, observation, paying attention, making connections and all of that. But it was not the CIA initially that sort of drew me. I was basically, you know, I studied as an undergrad at Columbia and I studied political science and then I went and got a master's at Chicago and I had assumed all along that I was going to actually join the foreign service. And I had spent a summer in Oman when I was an undergrad working at our embassy in Muscat and I loved it.

I thought this is it for me, the life of an expat, the life of a diplomat, you know, this is ticking all the right boxes. So when I was in grad school and the CIA recruited me, it was as much a surprise to me as it was to anybody else that I was even on their radar and much less that there was space for someone like me at a place like the agency. I love that. And so did you get the proverbial touch, you know, tap on the shoulder like, hey, you're coming with us type of thing? Kind of. It was a little bit less aggressive than that and it was face on, but yeah, I was approached and I could see the person approaching me and they just said, hey, look, this is who we are. Are you interested in having a chat?

And I just thought, I mean, yes, right? You never really expect that to happen. Yeah. And I thought, well, I mean, this is an invitation I can't say no to. I mean, I could have said no, but there's a lot of mythology around the CIA as well about like, you know, can you really ever leave? And can you ever say no, you can and you can, but I didn't want to. So yeah, I went and had that initial conversation and, you know, sort of took it from there. Well, there you go. So you, so when you were back, you know, I think you're in your TED talk, you talked about your mom, you know, and this is the reason I'm bringing this one up is because I just dropped my daughter off for her first day at high school, right?

So 13 years old and, you know, she's 13 year old girl, you know, just trying to figure out her life, you know, way in life, embarrassed by her parents, the whole thing. And, you know, when you say that you were an introvert, your mom told you just be you, right? And at the age you were like, what are you talking about? Like, this isn't working for me. Like, like I need to be somebody else. And it didn't really dawn on you until later on in life that you being you is actually what got you to the CIA, right? You didn't, you weren't faking it. And because you were a nerd and you're in your own words and a little bit of an introvert, very perceptive. How did you navigate that from a social standpoint?

I mean, were you always quiet and reserved all the way through? And then you, you, you understood your superpower weirdness. And I guess, where did it kind of click that this was a good thing and open you up? Not until well after high school, really. So I think the way I experienced it, and I touched about it, you know, briefly in the TED talk is it always felt like a burden, right? That I was an outsider. And some of that is, I think, just I have, okay, like I said, I was incredibly self-conscious, but some of that was, of course, imposed upon me, right? Like people made me feel like an outsider by the way they treated me, by the things they said to me. And so there was a lot of this, just, again, a very sort of not aggressive in most cases, but there was a pretty steady stream of just blatant racism, right?

That I encountered growing up. And so that always sort of played into, well, okay, well, I already don't feel like I fit in. And then P.S. These people are telling me I don't fit in. So it's reinforcing that, that insecurity anyway. And so I think for me, it took a lot of, I mean, just a bit of age and a bit of perspective and life experience for me to finally be able to shift, but from seeing it as a burden and as like, oh, I don't belong, I don't belong into actually, as you know, as I say now, as it being a superpower, but that I, to be honest, it probably didn't happen until I was in my twenties, you know, and like I said, sort of was able to go off on my own, to leave certain contexts behind that were a bit more hostile, to be a part of different worlds and experience different people and different countries and things like that.

And then just start to find my own feet and see where, you know, where I felt most comfortable and where I wanted to be, as opposed to where I had to be, which was, you know, as a child, effectively your school is, is not forced to be there, but there are only so many options right in front of you. And so when I was able to make my own choices and be in certain communities or in certain rooms, then it was when I started to see, well, actually, and the fact that I don't look like these people, excuse me, or don't have the same background or same experiences or any of these other cultural references, whatever it is, sometimes it's relevant and useful. Sometimes it's not. And, you know, and sort of figuring out when being different is an asset and when maybe it's less of an asset, but less of a, but it's never really as big of a, of a burden as I think I so often felt.

But yes, I mean, that perspective didn't really shift until, like I said, I was in my twenties. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close to cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done.

And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to jbarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. So is that what you would consider where, when you became self-aware and or confident, right? Because you talk about self-awareness versus self-conscious. But you also talk about confidence comes with competence, right? So with your, you know, again, introverted, all those things, like when did the true self-awareness come? And then, and when did you kind of double down on competence being like, look, I might not be the most competent, but I'm going to study, I'm going to go get my master's, whatever it might be so that I can at least feel confident in myself and my knowledge.

Was that a conscious thing on your end when that happened? I think it's interesting because I was always, that was the one sort of area of confidence was always academic, right? For me, because like I said, I was, you know, a self-proclaimed nerd and I always did really, really well in school. That was probably one of the few areas in which I was always confident from a relatively young age. But it didn't really shift into, again, a level of self-awareness or I think, to be honest, more important, self-acceptance until much later. So even after sort of, you know, I started to find my feet and be a bit more comfortable, I don't think I really truly stepped into my own, like fully, if I'm honest about it, probably until my late thirties, you know?

And again, some of that is, is life, it's experience, it's perspective, it's doing the work of like, oh, well, you know, what are some of the hangups I have about myself? What is some of the baggage that I've picked up from other people and internalized? And is any of that true? And, you know, that kind of stuff. But you have, for me, I was always so busy doing, right? So busy, like pursuing the next thing or trying the next thing or, or, you know, pushing myself to prove myself in another way that it, it wasn't until I gave myself that time in my, and space, like I said, probably in my late thirties that I was able to really explore, like, kind of that, that big existential question of like, who am I?

What's important to me? You know, what are my values? And am I sort of living in alignment with the stuff that's important to me? Or am I living somebody else's message, somebody else's goals and ambitions, et cetera. And that I think is something that many people, maybe even most people sort of paper over for so much of their lives, you know? And so, yeah, I mean, the honest truth about it is like, sort of that, that, like I said, that level of self-awareness and self-acceptance came much, much later in life. Yeah. I think it's, it's, and to your point, not enough people actually even get to that level, right? Because they're, they're so busy just going through the motions, doing what they're supposed to do.

But I'm right there with you. Like, I don't, I actually think that one of the worst pieces of advice you could ever give a kid is, you know, follow your passion, right? Because they have no idea what their passion is. And you don't really, I mean, I didn't, same as you, I didn't really figure it out until I was into my, well into my thirties. And I, and I look at it and say, you know, in your twenties, you're always looking up, right? Cause you're like, you don't know what you don't know. So you're like always, okay, I don't know what, in your thirties, like early thirties, you're like, okay, I think I know what I'm talking about, you know, but I'm still looking up a little bit. I'm holding onto my twenties a little bit more.

And now I'm 48. So now it was funny because I think around 40 years old, I being in the same industry and being doing what I'm doing and everything else, it's almost like the stuff that you talk about, you know, the 20 somethings I'll look at you like, Oh my God, that's genius. And you're like, wait a minute that, that. And you just kind of, you feel like you arrived like, okay, I think, I think I know what I'm talking about here. Like, Holy crap. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think some of it also, oh, sorry. No, no, go ahead. I'm always going to say some of what also happened for me is as I went, and I think some of it is just time, right? That some, some level of awareness and wisdom does just have to come with age.

There's no way to accelerate that process because along that process of aging and getting older, you're just living more life, right? You're having more touch points and having more experiences. And some of what happened to me as well is, you know, in the many different things that I've done and the different things that I've studied formally and informally, people I've met, et cetera, I've realized that everybody is going through the same stuff. Some people are hiding a bit better. Some people aren't trying to hide it at all. Some people are masking it with behaviors that are totally dysfunctional or whatever, but you know, I've been in rooms with some very senior high flyers, you know, CEOs, senators, presidents, like leaders of any stripe and, and country.

And so many of those people are carrying some baggage of, I don't belong here, or, you know, I feel like an outsider, or I can't be who I am, or I have to hide certain aspects of who I am. And I think that for me kind of made me feel less like a freak, right? Like a weirdo, because of all of a sudden, everybody's going through this. If everybody feels that in some way, then I am not unique in that, that feeling. And so it sort of made it, yeah, it made it normal, right? Because all of a sudden, everybody, you see other people doing it and going through it, et cetera. And then also you realize again, with time, perspective, age, et cetera, because I'm also in my forties, that actually so much of the stuff that we carry, we care about really, really doesn't matter.

And what I am still practicing on a daily basis with inconsistent results is something that I talk about in my book is this idea of living an absolute life versus a relative life, right? Of, of finding ways to measure myself in ways that are important to me, as opposed to measuring myself against other people. And that is a practice. It's not something anyone I don't think can master. Maybe if you're like a Zen monk or a Buddhist monk, maybe you do. But for me, it's not like a one and done. Oh, like I can check this skill off my list. It's like, no, every day in some way, I'm having to refocus and work at that practice of living an absolute versus a relative life. And that I think is part of what has come with that experience, age, perspective, self-awareness, et cetera.

Then again, I don't know if I could have forced on myself in my twenties without, you know, having lived a little bit more. I think a lot of the, like the older you get, right? The more you look back and be like, man, what I cared about back then. And that's the hardest part, transitioning that to younger people, because you're like, unfortunately they have to go through that too. You know, they have to make their mistakes just like, you know, my 13 year old daughter. Um, it, it is funny. You say that's like, you know, when you're a kid, you think, oh man, I can't, I can't wait to be an adult because adults got it figured out. And then when you become an adult at a certain point, like, wait a minute, nobody here has figured it out.

We're all literally making it up as we go. And everybody's got issues. It makes it a lot more. Okay. Wait, this is, oh, get to your point. Normal. Um, do you still get, um, and I would call it, uh, you know, the proverbial imposter syndrome? I don't think I've ever had imposter syndrome. And I know there are people who probably sort of want to sort of slip my rope for saying that a lot because it's like, what, how have you not felt this thing? I, John, I, I hope this isn't going to, uh, well, it'll come out the way it comes out, but I'm saying this with sort of honesty and, and with the right intent is I think so much of what's happened in and around imposter syndrome is that we talk about it so much that we've made it more real than I think it is because the way I view imposter syndrome is not the way that it's been talked about, which is like, oh, I don't belong here.

And like, people are going to find me out. It's something a lot simpler than that. It's like you often or not you won. People often talk about feeling the sense of imposter syndrome when they're in a new environment, a stretching environment, maybe uncomfortable environment, but all that should be communicating to you is that you are growing, you are learning, you are stretching, not that you are an imposter, not that you don't belong. And so often that whole other sort of paranoia about like, oh, but people are going to find me out because, you know, I don't belong. Well, then don't be somebody you're not. Right. I think that's the other thing that it can be so simple. And, and I've been, like I said, in rooms with like four star generals and presidents and people like, oh gosh, you know, how did you deal with the imposter syndrome?

Because I'm not trying to be them. I'm not trying to go in and be like, oh, well, I'm just as an accomplished military commander. I'm just as an accomplished, you know, politician and legislator. No, I am coming in with my perspectives, my insights that are valuable in this area. I know my sort of the boundaries of my expertise. I'm not going to talk out of school and say, okay, well, I'm, you know, yeah, well, here's a, here's a new military tactic that you should try because that's not who I am. That's not what I know. I know what I know. I'm always expanding what I know and trying to, to continually work at what I know, but I'm not going to try to out commander, the commander or out Senator, the Senator, right.

Or even try to meet them where they're at. For me, it's about knowing what value you are bringing to that conversation, to that table, to that room, and then forgetting about the rest, right. Even now when I'm, you know, working with companies and executives and boards and CEOs and things, I'm not trying to tell them how to run a retail business or provide a specific insights on that. That's, that's not what I know. That's what they know, right. My expertise is different. My expertise is on the fundamentals of leadership and the things that we're talking about here. It's not about the mechanics or the tactics. And so again, for me, with imposter syndrome, anybody can take that same approach of like, well, what, instead of obsessing over how you don't belong and how you are, uh, an outsider, they're not bringing you into that room out of charity, right?

They're not like taking pity on you. So instead shift the focus on what is the value you are bringing? Because they have asked you to be there for a reason, even in organizations, right? You were hired for a reason. It's not like someone was like, Oh, this poor old person, let's just throw a job at them out of, you know, sort of our goodness, right? And keep paying them. You have a value to add. So focus on what that value is, maybe add to that value, whether you need to, you know, upscale or retreat, whatever it is, right? Get smarter on something. Fundamentally, that's not being an imposter. So I think for me, this whole idea around imposter syndrome, it's just become, and again, this is sort of a bigger commentary.

It's just another way that like we've found to pathologize normal life, right? Like that's just normal life, feeling out of your comfort zone from time to time, feeling stretched, feeling like, you know, uncertain, but that's not a syndrome, right? That's just something you have to grapple with and everybody has to manage in some way. And so that's, that's my view on imposter syndrome. And it's not to say that people don't feel it, that it's, you know, whatever, but I think we've made it a bigger deal than I think it is. And we can reframe that conversation in ways that are less paralyzing and just a bit more in, in ways that people can actually do something about, right? You don't need a therapist.

You don't need a coach. You don't need like extra things. You just need to reframe the way you're entering this specific context in which you feel like an imposter. And you can do that very simply by focusing on your value, know what you're there to do and not pretending like you know more or are more than you are. And that's awesome. I think that reframe hit me a while ago because I always felt it, but I didn't, you know, and I, but again, until it started being labeled as imposter syndrome, I just was like, okay, it just means I haven't been here before. And I think that's where, when I was talking to somebody, very similar approach where they said, look, the reason you feel quote unquote imposter syndrome is because you're reaching another level.

It means you're growing. So that's a good thing. So again, to your point of reframing it, instead of a negative, like, oh my God, I've never been here and I shouldn't be here. It's wait, I've gotten to this level. I've never been here. This is exciting to figure out. So that is just the same thing. And I'm sure you've seen, you know, the difference between excitement and being nervous. Yes. The same physiological, you know, the same thing is happening in your body is just your brain reframing it to I'm excited versus I'm nervous. Same exact internal things going on. Right. You said it. Exactly that. Exactly that. And I think also the other thing that maybe the last thing I say about imposter syndrome is that, you know, that other part of it is again, not pretending to be more than you are because there's so much pressure to, um, to keep up.

Right. And into in professional context to like, you know, to, to, to, to perform in certain ways. And I don't mean like, you know, actual like work related performance, but actually the performance of pretending, right. And, and, and putting on airs and then see, and, and seeming superior in the hierarchy and all of that stuff. And again, for me, it's like, you don't have to pretend to be more or no more. And, and if you don't know something, it's totally legitimate and valuable to acknowledge and even admit if you're, if you need to admit it, right. Don't make stuff up just to fill the silence. It's very okay to just be like, I don't know, but this is what I'm doing to figure it out. Or I don't know, but I will ask the people who do and come back to you or whatever it is.

But being able to also say, I don't know what confidence is a huge way of just, of, of, of switching the whole script on and in and around those times that you feel like an imposter, because there's no way any single individual can know all of the things at all of the times about all of the things. And so if there are limits to your capacity or your knowledge or what you can contribute in a certain context, then say that, right. You don't have to brandish your like ignorance. Like it's, you know, an amazing thing, but also you don't have to make stuff up just to put like, to make yourself feel like you, you know, or it's okay for you to be in that conversation or in that room. So say, I don't know, but I will find out is, is totally legit.

Absolutely. That's why I've always hated the fake it till you make it mentality, right? Me too. Right. Cause first of all, it's, it's the word fake in general is just bad, right? It's like, I don't want to fake anything because people can smell right through that. I don't care how good you are at faking it. It comes through that, that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. And that's the worst case scenario is when you lose that credibility, but when you pretend versus actually knowing, or to your point, admitting, you don't know and figuring it out. Exactly. Let's talk about this. Cause you, um, you talk a lot about leveraging the power of non, not conforming, right. And the CIA is, is, is evolving now.

It used to be, you know, only men. And then, you know, when only art Ivy league people, and, you know, smart, and then they start finding people like you and really blowing up the whole, you know, perceived of what is supposed to be. I'm curious on your thoughts right now of structure versus, um, non-conformance, because what I'm noticing and a little bit of context here, I had posted something a while back called, um, stop doing what you're supposed to do. Right. And the whole idea was for me, I was, there was two instances in my life where I was just going along doing what I was supposed to do or what society was supposed to do. I, I, my first, um, girlfriend was my freshman year in college, seven years.

I knew the relationship wasn't right, but Hey, what do you do when you're with somebody for seven years, you get married and then you buy a house and then you have a kid. Thankfully she broke it off with me. Right. And, and I'm couldn't be happier, you know, now that I met my wife and everything else, same thing with job. Right. I was, I got, we got bought by staples and I was grinding and doing what I was supposed to do. And then they fired me cause I wasn't the right fit. And so I wrote this post, like, stop doing what you're supposed to do, do what you want to do, you know, get creative that are not. But what my question is, is a millennial hit me back and said, John, that's all well and good.

But as a, you know, for you guys, there was a for a structure to follow. So there was some certain comfort within that structure because you went to school, you got your degree, you did this, you got the job and yeah, you could break out, but it was, there was a comfort in knowing now there's no structure. Like we can do whatever we want to do. And I'm kind of feeling lost. And so I think we're in this, this transition point right now. I mean, you see it with religion fall, you know, that, that structure starting to fall apart and there are good components and bad components of it, obviously, but it almost feels like there's an unraveling going on right now with traditional structure, which is great for a lot of reasons.

But I also think it's a challenge for some. So talk to me about how the CIA helped you evolve without just letting you do whatever the hell you want to do, but gave you some structure so you could play within that. Cause I think that's where we are right now. And I'd love your perspective. Yeah. So for me, and this is partly the agency, just partly my own then sort of like having figured it out through lifing. Um, but for me, it's about the, the structure should be the what, right? The, this is what I, this is like what I'm going for in the big picture of my life. Like this is the, the things that I value or that I care about. And then the, the sort of the, the freestyling can be in the how and in the when, because, you know, so for example, in the case of this millennial, right.

And I talk a lot about this through actual tangible exercises in my book where I say, look, you know, we all get the shoulds, we all get the supposed tos. And even, you know, millennials are getting like, Oh, well you should have a portfolio career. You should have like, so there's almost like a structure to the lack of structure, right? Like, you know, you're saying, Oh, you shouldn't have a structure, but your structure should be a non-structure structure. Like it's, it's, it's kind of ironic in that way. Right. And we all get all of these shoulds about what people, my age or my, from my country or my gender or my social class or whatever should be doing. And, and to some extent, those can be signposts and they are useful signposts, but only as and when they align with your own values and your own sense of ambition, your own sense of what you want to contribute to.

And that is something that neither you nor I can answer for somebody else. That is a, I need to sit down with myself and either do the exercises that I have in the book or just reflect on, you know, what do I actually care about? Right. And for me, the answer to that question has always been from the youngest age was to make a positive impact in the world, in what part of the world, in which way. And that was totally unknown. But for me, the big thing, the what was, I want to make a positive impact. And then the how that's happened has taken many, many different forms. You know, I've been a math and English teacher. I've been a CIA officer. I've been, I am, you know, the founder of two organizations.

I'm a mentor. I'm a coach. I'm a parent. Like the how has taken many, many forms. If I was overly focused on like, well, it has to be this and I have to go and start a, you know, a nonprofit or whatever else. It would have changed. Well, for me, it would have stripped a lot of the richness from my life and also a lot of the fun from my life. Right. So the figuring out the, the how is sort of the experimentation is that I'm going to try this and see how it fits and if it works great, but if not, can I tweak it or are there things that I can do to sort of shift things in a different direction? But for me, it really is like, you need that North star and that North star cannot be like, oh, well, somebody's decided it or somebody's telling you that this is how it's supposed to look.

That has to come from you. And there will be seeds, no matter how young you are, of what that looks like in your lived experience. Right. And again, I, and I'm talking about sort of my book a lot because this it's very, very relevant to this question is again, taking that time out because by the time you are ready to enter the workforce, right. In your twenties or whatever it is, you have lived 20 ish years of your life that have are rich with data, right. Are rich with choices that you have made with areas of life that you have felt really full and alive and fulfilled in. And also the opposite, right. Parts of your life where you felt really numb or dulled or uninspired or whatever. And then the work requires you to see what those patterns are, right.

It's not going to say, okay, we'll go and, you know, go play professional football since you've always loved playing football. It might be, well, join a high performance competitive team, right. And then what that high performance competitive team can look like can be in marketing. It could be in finance. It could be in nonprofits. It could be in lots of different ways, but that's when the experimentation comes into play. So it's again, that defining of the what, and then reading the clues from your life is what takes some time, some efforts and self-awareness and self-analysis, right. Not just making it up, looking at what is the, like the data of your actual lived experience telling you. And then you start seeing how you're going to make that real.

And for me, when I was doing this for myself, what kept coming up again and again and again and again is I love problem solving. I love analysis and I love connecting with people. So anything I did have to have those three things, right. The big picture was like having a positive impact, but those specific elements had to have those three of the problem solving, the people and the, and the analysis and everything I've done since then has followed that pattern. Not because I was trying to force it, but because in areas where I wasn't able to naturally walk into this perfect sort of combination, I was able to make certain choices or like sort of make certain changes in my career or what I was doing or my responsibilities or my roles so that I could do more of that stuff.

Not a hundred percent of the time, not even 80% of the time sometimes, but do more of it than what was handed to me. So some of it is also about taking a much more active role in what that choice looks like. It doesn't mean that you have to jump into your dream career that you even have to know what that dream career looks like, but just do something, right. Because you will only learn by doing so choose something, you know, make an informed decision with the best information that you have available at that time. And then when you're in that environment, if something's not working, see if you can tweak it, see if you can change it, see if you can shift it in a, move it in a direction that you want to go, even in a place like the CIA that is very structured in some ways, you know, it's, it's a, it's a bureaucracy and there are certain job functions that you have to do certain titles that require you to do certain things.

I was still even within that able to serve the bigger picture mission and, and serve those, those goals in ways that nobody told me to do, right. You have to be willing to be proactive, to show some initiative, to make some suggestions about how you can do things that will serve the bigger mission or the bigger, you know, organizational goals. And that is all about experimenting. So I say, yeah, decide the what, the how, and the why is where you have to experiment. And that for me is probably the best way I have found both through my own experience and working with others of, of marrying that structure. And then that flexibility. I like it. How does that relate to goal setting from your perspective?

Right. Cause you, you look at, you know, smart goals, specific measurable, tangible, realistic, and timely, which are, I think very tactical. It's like, okay, I can, I feel good about doing those. And then there's the big hairy goal of like, you know, kind of dumb goals, if you will, of like big, really thinking big picture. But when you say, you know, you want to make a positive impact, right? Like that is, that is kind of an overarching, you want to ultimately be able to, and I'm, I'm the same with you, like the plus minus on sports, you know how they, when somebody's on the field versus when they're off, I really, at the end of the day, I want my graves to say he was a plus, not a minus. Like that really, as long as I can leave this place a little bit better than I found it, I'm in good shape.

But how do you, how do you marry kind of like, okay, there's my why, if you will, of what I want to do with goal setting and, and getting there versus, and versus pivoting, right? So, cause this is all kind of, a lot of people like, I got to set these goals and I got to do a hyper-focus no matter what I'm going there, but then stuff comes up and it doesn't really allow me to adjust because I've been so focused on this. So where are you at on goal setting? So for me, goal setting is probably a bit of a, well, not probably, it is a dynamic process. It's, it's, you set, again, you set a certain intention or a goal or whatever it looks like. And then as you work towards it, that's when you decide if it needs to pivot or if it, if it, or if you can keep, you know, keep it the same, because you, again, you don't know until you start doing the doing, if it's something that you want to be doing, or if it's giving you what you thought you were going to get from it, or if it's in any way fulfilling or meaningful or whatever.

And if it is, that's great. And if it's not, maybe sometimes that's just because not everything's going to be fun and happy and fulfilling at all times, or maybe it's because you chose the wrong goal, but you don't know, again, nobody can answer that for you. You have to sort of, you use your own intuition to decide that without constantly sort of ping ponging between things, but also you need to just try certain things. And so for me, for example, I always tried to make the best informed goals that I possibly can. Right. And that's where that, that dynamic comes in from. So for me, one of my big life schools was always to publish a book. Another one was to do a TED talk. And those were, you know, in some sort of way, a lot in the service of the bigger picture goal of having a positive impact of, you know, sort of helping people, inspiring people, whatever.

But I didn't know until I started doing the doing, if I actually wanted to do that, right. Or if it was something that I could sustain. And, and, and I think the sustainability is another part of, you know, depending on how big or small the goal, you know, people say, Oh, I want to be an entrepreneur. Oh, I want to, you know, sort of become an ultra marathoner. Yeah, that's cool. But do you also want the lifestyle that comes with making those choices? Because too many people aren't willing to make the trade-offs required to pursue that goal. And so it's being very clear about anytime I, excuse me, I set a goal for myself. It's being very, very, I make sure I'm very clear on, well, what is this going to require me to say no to?

What is this going to require me to give up? What is this going to require me to sacrifice? Because there is no way I can do this big, important thing and maintain everything as usual that has been happening in my life up to this point, right? So that's where you have to decide what it's worth to you to achieve this goal. And is it the goal itself that you care about? Or is it, you know, the process? Is it the training? Is it the daily writing? Is it the practice? Is it who, you know, for some people it's, it is, you know what? No, I just want to be able to say that I've, I've become, you know, an entrepreneur. I just want to be able to say that I've done a triathlon and that's great. But again, for me, that what I found that works best for me is, and I will be able to sustain for the longest amount of time is if I also get something from the process of training, of, of writing, of whatever else, right?

Because at the end of the day, you can work your ass off trying to become an entrepreneur or a successful entrepreneur and you won't be successful, right? You can work your butt off to, to write a book and it might sell two copies. Like there's no way you can game the outcome. So you also have to decide is the goal something that you will be happy, not happy, that you are, you are going to commit to and invest in consistently kind of regardless of what the outcome is. Not totally oblivious of like, oh, that's okay. I'll just let myself go bankrupt and, you know, I'll, you know, sort of, you know, end up becoming home. It's like, that's not obviously what we're going for here. But the reality is, there's going to, there's no way that, that like beautiful golden moment that everyone is expecting and assuming is going to happen will necessarily happen.

So choose your goals carefully as well, you know, and don't, and, and again, that's where you have to start doing some of the doing in order to realize if this is a sustainable goal, if it's a goal that really means something to you, or if it's another one of those supposed to's and those should's that you've picked up from someone else, right? Oh, well, everybody around me is doing, you know, training for the Ironman. So I should too. Or, you know, so many of my friends that are starting their own side hustle. So I should too. Like, again, that's not how you approach goals in here, right? Like you have to play around with it. You have to see, but again, you use the data of your life and to see what has been important to you and what those ambitions are.

And some of it, you might just have to make it up, right? Like some of you just be like, you know, I think this might be something that I want to achieve. And then you start working towards it and see how it fits and see how it feels and see if it's something that's like energizing, even when it's the most mind numbing and tedious, or if it's something that you're like, Oh my God, if I have to do this, like, I'm just, I'm not going to be able to keep going. Right. So it's not, yeah, it is. It's just very, very dynamic, but I would say if nothing else to keep it very simple. I mean, I've said many things right here, but another thing that I think just to keep it simple as you sort of, cause many people are practiced at the, you know, at goal setting and they just sort of, you know, pick up like a new year's resolution list from somewhere else or some Instagram, you know, influencer for me, it's always been about something very concrete is if I, for example, as many people do, we'll set a goal for a year.

The way I do my goal setting at the beginning of any calendar year is I say, if you know, when December 31st comes around, what are the three and no more than three? Cause that's the other problem with goal setting. People put like a laundry list of 75 different things and they're like, Oh, well I suck at life because I didn't achieve all of them. Well, no, nobody can write like three is probably the maximum number of things that any one human being can sort of set in a goal or an ambition around and actually sort of realistically achieve. And so I say by December 31st, if I have done nothing other than these three things, what will make me feel the most satisfied, the most like glad that like, Oh wow, I did that.

And just, and accomplished, right? Because there is a positive momentum that builds up when you prove to yourself, you can set a goal, no matter how big or small, but set a goal and then achieve it. It creates this positive feedback loop. Okay. Oh, now I'm excited for next time. What are my next three? What are my next three? As opposed to what happens to most people here are my 75 goals. I've not accomplished any of them. I suck at life. I'm going to try again for the same 75 next year and then continue to suck. Like it creates a negative feedback loop. So what I would say to keep it very tangible and tight is choose three things that will make you feel really good about the year that's passed.

Focus on those three, ignore everything else. And that's where discipline comes in and then create that positive feedback loop. And yes, make them smart, right? Like all of the specific achievable, all that stuff, but also make them as big or as small as you need them to be, right? That doesn't have to, this is why I kind of hate the whole thing of like 10 X-ing everything or a hundred X-ing everything, because it creates this unrealistic expectation that if it isn't massive, then it doesn't count. If it isn't this huge, like before and after transformation, then you may as well not bother. That's not, that's not how life works, right? And again, it creates this negative feedback cycle of like, oh, well, I tried to a hundred X my life and then I fell flat.

Of course you did. Most people will, right? The majority of people will. That's not useful to you. I think some of it is also creating a momentum, creating a pattern where you prove to yourself, you can achieve the things that you set out to achieve, and then you can make them bigger as you go, right? But it starts small and work your way up. And that for me has been really, really, really, really valuable. That's awesome. Do you, is there something that you look at, cause the, again, going back to the, the, some things I'm seeing out there right now that I'm concerned with, right? One is the lack of structure so that people don't know what to do. Another one is, is, you know, giving up too soon on something and not going through the process to develop the grit.

And, and the example in my world, you know, from a sales standpoint is, you know, I spent five years, my first, my first job in sales effectively, you know, I spent five years on the phones getting my ass handed to me and it sucked. You know what I mean? This was before email was bigger thing. And so, you know, I'm making 50, 60, a hundred aisles a day, getting the shit kicked out of me. And, and, but again, going back to that structure, like I kind of had to do it. Right. So I was like, you know what? All right. I got to grind through this to get to the next level, to get there. So I didn't have a ton of other options or at least perceived. I didn't have a lot of, cause entrepreneurship wasn't huge back, you know, 25 years ago, whatever.

Now that there are so many options for kids to do side hustles and generate income. My, my fear is that there's a lack of patience to go through the process, to even learn whether you're good at it or not. And if you can get through it or not. So I guess, how do you, how do you coach people on staying, like staying the course because you know, it's the right thing to do. Cause it's going to get to that next level versus you're actually on the wrong course. You're, you know, because you know, this, you stop beating the shit out of yourself for this because it's actually not for you, but you know, you know, but you don't want to quit on anything. Right. So how do you, what's that indicator for you that you're down the wrong path and need to shift versus I'm down the right path.

It just sucks. And I need to power through it. Whenever that happens, I always get advice. And I think that's really the only way for, um, anyone to know, is this just, I, again, I'm uniquely cursed or uniquely suck at this thing, or am I doing something wrong or, you know, what needs, is it, you know, is it a problem with the process or a problem with the, with, with the person? Right. And I think for me, the only useful way of getting that insight is by talking to a few other people who have done the same thing, who have been successful at it and also who are aligned sort of with your values, right? Because there are many ways to be successful in any field, but you want to do it in a way that sits right with you in a way that you're going to feel good about who you are at the end of the day, when you're sort of, you know, going to bed with yourself.

And so for me, it's like, I, we all lose perspective when we're, when we're grinding and we're trying and we're, you know, trying to figure things out as we go. So the only way to know whether you're doing it right or not is to ask other people. And sometimes, you know, other people will have their own perspectives or whatever, but if nothing else, it just helps you get some of that perspective because they have done the thing that you want to do successfully, right? So don't talk to your peers who are still grinding at the same level, who are still trying to figure it out. Go to somebody who at least a couple of steps ahead of you, who has a proven track record, who's, you know, shown that they're a really capable salesperson and not just a one trick pony or like did it one year, but who's consistently doing good work and consistently getting results.

Those are the people that you want to seek advice from. Those are the people that you want to be mentored by. Those are the people that you're going to want to have sort of guiding you to say, okay, well, yeah, you know what, John, keep going because actually this is just a numbers game, right? You just got to, you got to bust through and just keep doing the dirty work of the, of the calls to, until you get that first, yes, you need that somebody else to tell you that, or you need them to tell you actually, you know what, John, email marketing is the way to go now. Instead of focusing on phone calls, you know, start working on your email list and blah, blah, whatever it looks like. But you want to make sure that the people you're getting that advice from are qualified to give it to you.

And then you can decide, okay, is this a pivot that I want to make? Is this something that sits right with me? Am I willing to put in that work of making those thousand calls or that email campaign or whatever? And if not, then that's on you, right? That's, you are the one who's saying, well, actually I don't have what it takes, right? I'm not the one, I'm not willing to persist. I'm going to just give up when things get harder, whatever it is. Or you can say, okay, well, I need to shift. And then you experiment, right? It's not, it's never going to be like, all of a sudden you tried something new and everything is going to fall into place. You can run a small experiment and just see what the difference is, right?

Don't ever take anybody else's advice, whole cloth and be like, oh, okay, well that's the gospel. I have to do exactly this and exactly that way. No, right? Because nobody has it all figured out, but take their insights, take their advice from the, again, they're qualified. They have the experience, et cetera. They've proven their chops, but then filter it through your own good judgment. And you can say, okay, well, this is what they've told me. This is what I think rings true. This is what I'm going to try. These are some of the things that I'm going to just leave to one side for now. You don't have to, you know, again, they're not there to like give you a step-by-step, but you have to be grown up enough to know whether or not this is something that you're willing to suffer through.

Because again, it's that whole thing, no pain, no gain, right? There's this crazy notion. And I think this is something that is relatively newish, just socially and culturally, this idea of like the disconnect between the effort and the outcome, right? Like anybody can be an overnight success. Anybody can be an influencer, even though they have no background or experience in anything, right? You just need a bazillion followers and to put out great content. Like there's so much noise around what it means to, to succeed. And the reality is, is that yes, maybe you become an overnight success, but, but, but that does not happen to be honest, if ever, or an often enough for the odds to be in your favor.

So you have to be willing to graft at something. You decide what that something is, and then you just get the advice as and when you hit that wall. Yeah. I think it's spot on as far as the perception reality, you know, nine times out of 10, that quote unquote overnight success put in 10, 20 years of grinding through to get to that point. You just heard about them when they became wildly successful, but you, you know, you didn't see that, as you said, the 10 and 20 years that it took for them to get to that point, you know, and there's, you know, Amazon, Starbucks, like all of these companies, Apple, right? So many of the companies that are now global giants, they were nothings for a good 10 to 15 years before they really started seeing 10 to 15 years, right?

Most people are not willing to put in 10 to 15 years of grinding because they're just sick of it. They want instant results. But if you want to be Jeff Bezos, you have to be willing to suck it up for the first 16 years of your company's life where things are just sort of plodding along and breaking even, right? And then you get the breakthrough. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but at least go in assuming that it will take a lot longer than you are willing to accept because it always does, right? And most people are willing to accept not very long. So no, they're going to have to suffer through it a lot longer than you might expect. But again, don't suffer stupidly and get the advice and the insight from others who have done it.

Love it. Last question before we need to wrap it up. You've talked a lot about values, right? And knowing yours, did you, when did you consciously think of your values and did you go through the value exercise at a certain point? Or were you always pretty clear on what they were? Well, that's a very good question. Um, I, I don't think I ever really, well, I definitely never did any sort of, um, external exercises around values. I've often been, you know, pretty thoughtful about what it is that I care about, what I want to do, et cetera. But I think for me, I've decided that I'm not going to use, I'm not going to make my values a sort of a thought exercise. Again, the way I look at my values is what have I done?

Like, what are my actions saying that I value? And then I get to claim those as my values. So I don't get to say, Oh, well, like, you know, I value like, um, you know, I don't know, environmentalism or whatever. And then I don't recycle, right? I don't get to make that claim and have that disconnect between what I say I care about and what I actually do. So instead of it being like, these are my values, and then I'm just going to pretend like there's an alignment. I say, well, what has my life shown me that I value? And then I will claim those, you know, out loud as being my values. And so far, what I think my life and my actions and my daily behaviors have said that I value is, is, is, is fairness, is integrity, is family, community, honesty, but I'm not going to make it some theoretical thing.

So yeah, I, so I guess to answer your question more directly, I haven't really, yeah, I haven't done any exercises that I've been like, Oh, well this, I've just been like, you know what, what is my behavior telling me that I care about? And then I will, I will claim that. And if I don't like what my behavior is saying, then I will change my behavior before I claim that I value that thing. And, and that is, for me has been the hard part, right? I, for, in my head, I always tell myself that I value my, my wellbeing, like my physical and whatever stuff. But aside from, you know, eating pretty well and moving kind of, there are many, many hypocrisies in the way that I sort of value my wellbeing.

Right. And so I'm not going to claim that one just yet. I'm making progress and I know it is something that I would like to claim. So I'm going to work and continue to work at doing the right things, but until I'm consistently showing up for that value, I'm not going to claim it. Okay. Awesome. Well, Rupa, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you coming on here. And so tell people you get the book from CIA to CEO, unconventional life lessons for thinking bigger, leading better and being bolder. So, and I know you do keynotes and all sorts of speaking and sessions. So tell people where they can find out more information about the book, about you and everything else. And then we'll wrap it up.

Perfect. Best place about me is my website, rupalypatel.com. So Y is my middle initial. So rupalypatel.com. And then the best place to find about my book is also the website, ciaticeo.com. Absolutely love it. Well, thank you again so much for coming on Rupa. I really appreciate it. This has been fun. It's been really good. Thank you so much for having me, John. Absolutely. And everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Like I say, at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad your day went or how bad you think it's going, you make somebody smile and you know, you had a good day. The world needs a lot more of that right now.

So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day, just like you go to jbarrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today.

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