The Sales Play: Glengarry Glen Ross After Hours

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And boy, do we have a treat for you today. Talk about people who I respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. For those of you who've been following along, I brought 18 practitioners slash influencers slash good friends of mine to New York City for a full day event called the sales play where in the morning or in the afternoon we did LinkedIn where we showed our best plays. Then we did a roundtable discussion. Then we did a happy hour.

We live streamed it all. But then we all went to Glengarry Glen Ross. And afterwards, we all got together at my suite at the W and did a debrief. This was not live stream, but it was recorded. And the conversation was so rich. It was about Glengarry Glen Ross and the feedback from that. And you'll find out really quickly why I think Jeff Hoffman, who was invited to this event and is a good friend of mine and is my mentor. I tell everybody that he is the greatest sales professional I've ever come across by far. And you're going to find out why. His knowledge and his insights from this play and how they relate to today are off the charts. And we got into a lot of other really thoughtful conversations around race, around women, because the play is a very male dominant play.

And I didn't think it was going to go in this direction, but boy, am I glad that it did because it got us to all think a lot about sales and the perception and everything else. So buckle up. This is your sales MBA. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's make it happen. I just want to go like, like biggest takeaways or, or I mean, Jeff was already talking. What was your favorite part? Cause you, you know, this movie back and forth play. Yeah. Like that, that, that, that we could learn from, right? Yeah, exactly. I thought, I thought the, I thought the, I thought Bill Burr absolutely crushed it. And I think like, obviously probably typecast, obviously to put him in boss's role, but I mean, I didn't think he had the chops to like deliver those machine gun lines, especially in those scenes with, um, squiggy, which I thought was terrific.

And, uh, the thing that like, I thought the direct, if you're a fan of the movie, like I think we all are, the, I thought the way they shot Roma or the way they directed Roma, Culkin was so different than the movie, right? Cause the movie, but you know, is absolutely terrifying. He's a lion. He's just a savage destroyer of people. Like he's just, he's like a little guy, but he's just terrifying. Right. And in like, I was thinking about the scene in the first act where, um, in the play Culkin is kind of half twisted talking over to another booth. Yeah. And in the movie, Roma is spread out. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like holding core, like just a vulture. And I was like, wow, these are really cool choices.

Like they really kind of, he took a twist on it. So I just thought it was fabulous. And actually, I want to, I want to have the conversation out loud about what we were just talking about, because the about, about McCulkin and his character in today's world. Yeah. I wonder, like, I think curious what everybody's thoughts. I mean, and I'll, I'll, I'll say it straight. Cause I mean, whatever, but, um, I mean, I'm different generation. Like, I think I'm certain that in 2025, Ricky Roma's character is vilified and is a bad person, but McCulkin, McCulkin. Yeah. But like from my generation and growing up, like with all the badness of Roma and what he does, he's not a bad character. Like, like when I started in sales and like that kind of a person was someone you were like, Oh, like that was, that guy's a killer.

Like that guy can, that guy can really, can really do magic. And, and even now I'm like, ah, I mean, that's just some strong, strong closing skills. And so I, I'm sure that, that times have changed and, and that's no longer someone we go, Oh, that's how you sell. But I can't deny it. Like that's still part of how I sell. That is definitely still. And why? Because, um, the, and I was saying this, I think when we were talking, um, I've always believed that the idea that you sell to people to get them to where they want to go. I've never bought into that. Like the idea of like, where do you want to go? What do you want? What do you need? Like I've never really bought that because my thinking is someone wants something, they're going to go get it.

They don't need a salesman. They don't need a saleswoman. They can go get it. So when someone's like, I've got pain, I've got need. Well, yeah. So everyone does. So you've done nothing about it. So you're, you're coming to me in your current state. So my thinking has always been just sell them the state they're in. So if the guy walks into the gym heavy and smells like nicotine, sell them pain. Cause that's what he's in. And if the guy comes in cut and fit, sell him, sell him that because that's what he's coming in with. And it's just, and I've always like connected with that idea. And that's what the Roma character does. He's going to sell you where you are and where you are is tremendous. That's very powerful as a closer.

And when you try to sell people aspirations, I don't know, man, that's like, that's a big ego for a rep. Like I'm going to show you hope and fantasy and dreams. And like, man, I'm just a guy, man. I'm just a guy just with leads and some crappy software. I mean, like, I'm not, I'm not going to break records on this, but you come in all, all, you know, things are tough. Well, I'm going to make you feel like it's really tough. And if you come in like, I'm going to kick ass. Well, you're really going to kick ass with me. Like, I like that. That works for me. And that that's, I don't think people sell like that anymore, but it works. I mean, it's, it works. Does it so in it good? What's so interesting about that character and that monologue, the very first monologue was he was all about being present in the moment, just present.

And what you were just saying is like, well, then I'm selling to where you are today, not where you're going to be tomorrow, like where you are today. However, you're showing up catches how dismal things have gotten with his mark. Yeah. And then he, he realizes it's totally off the rails. And then he shifts gears instead of going, let's go eat. He's like, get in the chair. Yeah. He goes, let's be in here together. And he says, there are things you're going to bond in a pact with your wife. And that's a wonderful thing. And there were things that are yours. Yeah. You know, he's trying to find that place where he was. Yeah. Yeah. Because he was in a very, he was in a very solo place sitting there in that booth all by himself.

Like that's like, woof. And I know how bad it is. I get like, don't do that. That's manipulative. But it's not manipulative. This is my theory on manipulation. Like it's not manipulation. If you're driving to a plane, if you're driving to a destination that everybody wants to go to, then you're being persuasive. If it's a destination that no one is agreeing to, that's manipulation. So if everyone wants to go somewhere, I think you've got free reigns to be persuasive. I don't think that's manipulation. Like if he wants something, you driving him there is okay. If he's not sure where he wants to go, then you should be hands off. And that's a little bit of the Roma character. He was like, I feeling where you're trying to get to.

So I'm playing into that. I get that. What I'm saying to John is I think that's a dated, antiquated look. I'm self-aware enough to realize that's not how 2025 looks at the world. Okay, I get it. I'm a dinosaur with that, but that's okay. I just love how focused he was on the being present. It's all about what's going on today. I mean, even in this play, the guy ended up miserable. So I don't think it was, he wasn't persuading him to go the way he wanted necessarily. No, he's selling the misery. Yeah. So I don't think there was anything good about that. No, it's not much of a good. Well, wait, wait, wait. Because, so hold on. So there was, at the table, what was sitting in front of the guy that he sold to?

Do you remember? In the first scene? Yeah. A book? No. A Bible. A Bible. Oh, he was at a, so I think, I think there was a little, I think there was a message being told to us, like a little underlying message of like, this guy figured out that this dude could be prayed on, right? No pun intended. Because he, because he, you got it. Because he saw, he saw a man that would have, that was in a broken state. He's looking for hope. He's in, he's like deep in, he's in a bar in the Bible, right? And he's, and he, and he preyed on him. So what's the line though, that Moss says to the other guy, when he's like, why are you doing this to me? And he goes, because you listen. Because you listen. See, like, if, if you're, you can't play in the waters with the sharks and then wonder, why did I get bit?

Like, I think there's a part of that in this narrative as well. So that guy was letting the shark in the water. Well, I mean, don't, don't go over to his table. You know, say I'm busy or I don't want to talk to you. Like, I mean, it's a choice. It is a choice. A hundred percent. It's a choice. He's like, he put a gun to his head. Well, I think to your point, to your point, it's an incredible point because you're saying the principle of meeting a person where they are is powerful. And I think that that was like under the underlying tone though, was that he was fully, he was immersive in the way he was meeting this person where he was. And sinister. Like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not applauding that.

I'm not, but, but, and I, but it's, I think it's a, it's a powerful element in, in, in sales. It's a powerful element to, to be that present and to, to be like, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to meet you where you are and I'm going to really listen to you. I'm going to listen to you more than anyone's listening to you. And when people feel like they're being heard in that moment and they're being heard in where, where they are in their current state and you just guide them in the state they're in, they will buy things from you in abundance. I don't think he, I don't think he guided at all. I think what, what he did was not just manipulation. He just, well, he lied, he lied. I'm off on that.

I'm off. I'm off. But I'll say that we've all seen those Roma guys and they're the guys that are on the top of the board. Does that mean that they're the best? No, that means they close a lot, right? But there's still a cancer culturally. Yeah. There was no one good. There's no one redeeming in the show. No, there is no one redeeming. Yeah. But Jeff's point is like, is so powerful. Yeah. No one was beyond the approach. So Jeff says at the end of all that, Jeff says, I know that like it's, you know, things have changed and it's like, you do things different now, but he's also like incredibly right because so like, if we take the Bible, there are things in the Bible we don't do anymore either.

Right? Like we don't stone, well, some countries do we don't stone people for stealing bread. It depends on which version of the Bible. It depends on which version of Somalia. I mean, I think his point is powerful because I think I took away in that moment, like you're speaking to my soul because I watched, I like, I got emotional during that whole part because I could see the under, I could see all the stories they were telling in that moment. And I could see, I could see the empathy, the fake empathy. I could see that the man who was receiving feeling like, Oh, finally, someone wants to give me attention and help me. And I saw all these incredible things. And I think, see, I think to your point though, like that things are done different, that it doesn't mean that we can't still take principled ideas from the past that were good that men use and maybe women in some instances too, but more men in historically to their advantage instead of to the servitude of others.

I have a question though. I have a question. So this is, so, so this whole show is all about the one-on-one relationship. I am Roma and I'm selling to you. I'm selling to you and your wife, you and your partner. How do we, so as all of this you're talking about, how does that change in this environment where there are like 10, 12, 14 people involved in a buying decision? Like in the world of like buying in, in, in the world of enterprise, there are multiple people involved. So it's no longer, it's not just me going to you. Are there really? Yeah. You don't have the unilateral decision power. Like not one person doesn't. I'm not sure about that. Oh really? Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far.

I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that will be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like chat GPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to jbarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off.

Now let's get back to the conversation. Well, say more. Well, yeah, yeah. Do tell. I mean, I've been an enterprise sales my whole life and I've never really bought into the idea that it's a collective. You know, somebody decides. Like the CRO decides. Not necessarily title based, but somebody, somebody puts their thumb on the scale. But they're influenced by a number of other people and factors that are around. I think the word influence is overstated in our attempt to try to wrangle a sale that we don't fully always understand. I mean, it, it, smart salespeople generally don't are keen to figure out who's, who, who's in charge here. And title aside, role aside, all that aside, somebody's steering this decision.

So you're saying someone. And it's not true in most, like, just think, forget sales. Just think about your own like team dynamics. Right. Yeah. Or your own family. Do we really make decisions collectively or, or, or, or does someone ultimately drive? Jen, is that, Jen, is that, Jen, is that you at GoNimbly? Huh? Depends on, depends on the subject. Uh, there's plenty of times when I default to somebody else. And I'm like, a hundred percent. Like I'll get pinged by someone about our HR software. I don't give a fuck what HR software we use. That's a hundred percent on my people ops director. It's very hard for companies to move forward. It's still him. To move forward. If he told me we were switching, we would switch.

But was it a certain price? You'd be like, mm, I need you to like. No. Truly. Unilateral power. I trust them. If he told me that we had to switch, we would switch. So let's say like GE, I don't know, big ginormous company. LinkedIn, to what degree do they have some level of autonomy to make a decision to where I'm just one person versus there are a multitude of people? I think it's in pockets. I think it just depends. Like, what are you selling into what department and to whom? And to your point, it's like, find the person who's like, ultimately going to be like, that sounds like a good idea. It doesn't operate in a vacuum. Yeah. You'd be dealing with multiple people, but there's someone that's going to be the thumb on that.

Yeah, yeah. There's no question. There's a driver, right? Someone says, let's do it. Let's do it. There's always someone you have in close. So let's do some more takeaways from the play. I do a play comment, kind of a little bit about Macaulay Culkin's character. You mentioned he's so different from the guy in the movie, right? He's not Al Pacino. But he is himself. That's his character. That's his character on every show that he's ever done, every movie he's ever done. He's so himself. So I think there was no way that he could not be that. I don't think that man plays anything other than himself. I agree with you. His whole thing is he'll have these weird, neurotic, anxious takes. Exactly. And even Roman from Succession is manipulative and clever and conniving, but he's also that he's weird as fuck and is like quirky and strange and neurotic.

And so like, I agree with you. I was like, I didn't expect him to be like Al Pacino because it's... Yeah. But he's also... It's different. But you like it. Yeah. Like you were saying, he's unethical. And you're saying like, okay, yeah, people are not going to like this anymore because sales has changed so much and maybe don't look up. I don't know, man. I love being like, that guy rules. Yeah. I'm with you. I do like that side of it. Yeah. Did you buy though that his... Roma in the play, did you buy that he was like a ruthless salesperson? Not... I found him a little weak. I found him a little... I found him a little... He's more desperate than you want. They were all pathetic. They were all pathetic.

Yeah. That's part of the... That's part of the narrative. That's part of the narrative. And I do think especially... They're all broken. They're all broken. But I also think especially the comparison to the movie. Like you have a little bit more of the like edge and especially with Alec Baldwin's character and all the rest. I miss him. And so when you don't have this, the sum total is like everyone is sad and kind of pathetic and a little fucked up and like it's... Yeah. And it's interesting because we were all talking about this going before. We were like, dude, the movie is depressing. Oh yeah. Very sad. And then we were like, okay, they've hired all these like amazing comedians. Like, is this gonna be funny?

Yeah. And it was. And I was like, but it's funny and also so really frickin depressing. I got a question. Do you think we would even know about this movie without Alec Baldwin's scene? No. Would we know about this play? Probably right. No. Without Alec Baldwin's... No. Wouldn't be in the zeitgeist. Right? Or even if Alec Baldwin wasn't in it at all. Like because there's something so like... Iconic about that. Iconic. Yeah. I really think it is. Yeah. I had forgotten that. I didn't know. I didn't know. I had never seen the play. I learned about it because I'm at like 35. No. It was never in it in the first place. It was a play first. My first ever sales like meeting. We used to work at Coca Cola.

And that's my first sales job in field sales. And the guys were all like that. The only difference is there was no suits. Wearing the, you know, coolers putting in Coke products and all that. We used to play this as an opening thing like coffees were closed. This was engraved in the full cohort. Imagine. Imagine. Everyone. University College, whatever y'all. I'm Canadian. Whatever you're called. We're, there's 60 of us in this, in this room. And the opening thing is the Alec Baldwin saying always. By the way, by the way, I told this to a bunch of people when I was like explaining to friends that I'm like, I'm coming here. And I'd be like, do you know, have you seen the movie Glen Gary, Glen Ross?

Cause I'm talking to a lot of non salespeople. And they're like, um, I don't know. And then I'd be like, coffee is for closers. And they'd be like, oh yeah. Like, and a lot of them had never seen the movie, but they knew that. And so it's like that. It was a meme before there were memes. Oh, well, it wasn't a, it wasn't in the play. It wasn't in the play. But if you, as you walked out, you looked at all the swag. Yeah. So like not even in the play. Cause again, that's cause it's, that's how it, that's how it's known. I was waiting for that scene the whole time. There's a story behind that being added. That's a good question. I don't know. He wrote it for, so they wanted Alf Baldwin attached to the movie.

So they asked Mamet if he would write in a character for him. So the original guy wrote it. He wrote that character. And he wrote that. Oh shit. That monologue just for Alf Baldwin actually. Wow. So he figured out how to like slot that in. Yeah. To an already incredible conversation about the world of sales. And when you watch it, when you watch the play without it, it is way sadder. It's so sadder. Because you have the contrast of this very dynamic. You have no villain. You have no, you have no villain also. You hate Alec Baldwin and you just feel even that much more sad for these other sad sats. It's a different experience without it. It's a totally different experience. You're so right. It is.

I was generally looking for it. It changes the whole. What Mamet play isn't depressing. It changes the whole. It changes the whole. Every one of them is depressing. Well that's the thing. Mamet is. Mamet is dark. It's blazer. The combination of really, really rapid fire dialogue with sad depressing like themes. There's, there's almost nothing else out there that's quite like that. That changed the whole dynamic. Do you think it's a comment on men? What's that? On men? Like, I mean, this was a depressing show. There was not really a redeeming character. The cop maybe? What'd you say? the whole dynamic. Do you think it's a comment on men? What's that? On men? Like, I mean, this was a depressing show.

There was not really a redeeming character. The cop, maybe? What'd you say? No, there really is this. Yes, there was nothing feminine. There's no feminine energy. There's not a female in it. In other places there are, just not this one. No, no, no, but this one, I mean, and it was just a disparaging comment on sales, but I'm wondering what Mamet's perspective on men is. Ooh, interesting. I mean, Speed the Plow's pretty dark. They're all dark. They're all dark. About men. There wasn't a single, like, transformation story, nothing. You know, the big thing, too, and this is, I think this is another, like, symbol of happiness. No, there's no one you want to be with. That it's older is there's no antihero.

If you took, if someone wrote that story today and tried to, like, capture the same, like, darkness. I mean, well, for frickin' Wall Street, like, you have an antihero. You have someone who you're like, ooh, I feel guilty that I'm rooting for you, but I'm rooting for you, and, like, we don't have that. And I think Alec Baldwin provided, like, just a taste of that. And so, because of that, the whole thing is just, like, wall. So, going back to being impressed by that, by the character of, like, oh, he is who he is. Alec Baldwin is the one I impressed, or he is. He doesn't, he pulls no punches. He's exactly who the fuck he is. What he whisper is, like, all right, is Moss here? No, I'm going anyway.

Yeah, exactly. He kicks into gear. Like, I was like, oh, he's so good. He gives zero. What's your name? Fuck you. My name is fuck you. So, what do we think, then? What if one of these characters were a female? That would be a really interesting play. That would be a really interesting twist. What would change? Roma's narrative changes. Roma's narrative doesn't work. Roma's entire narrative doesn't work if there's a woman, there's a woman character. Why? Because he, his big drum. Wait, wait, what is a woman that he's trying to sell to? Roma's, no. Roma's drum that he beats, mostly to John, the sales manager, is that, and he looks at the board and he's like, you know, something he talks about to himself about how the loss of men, like he has this, this, this strange idea of the world of men and it's, it's a world that's faded.

It's madman. So, if there was a woman in the office, he would have a really hard time with his narrative. By the way. So, I, I, it's very interesting. I don't know. I don't know what would happen. Do you think that that is part of the reason why they brought it back now? Because you think about the conversation that is going on in America about men and the role of men and masculinity and it's like so of the moment, this concept of like men's fading glory and the bitterness and the like sadness and all of that. Like, why did, why are they doing it now? Because it feels really of the fricking moment. You're, you're, you're absolutely right. And to answer your question, where would it change as a woman?

It was clear that he could talk to John. He could manipulate John. Yeah. He could massage and, but the wife, she would have broken him. Yeah. She would have broken him. He wanted to stay as far away from her as possible because he could not. But he did close her. Yeah. Yeah. But he couldn't run shop over her. But I'd say there's a lot of women salespeople who are the same way. They can work really well with a man, but not a man. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what would it look like? I know this is a weird parallel. It would feel like it's always sunny. You would need a woman like that character. Yeah. You would need a D. Yeah. You would need someone just as terrible as the others. And a woman can totally play that.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's just a dynamic. Sure. But you have to imagine it like that, like that kind of female character. But what if she was the character with the narrative, with the man's world, and you shifted it? Yeah. Like, what if she was, what's his name? Roma? Roma. Totally. Oh, she could totally. You could write that. You could write that. But you, it was still, that whole drumbeat of the, like, you know, you know, in a room of men, you're a child. Like, there's so many lines that you'd have to just discard. I don't know. Because Roma's whole thing is about that testosterone. But you've met women that also say that stuff. Have I? I have. There are women. Oh, yeah. Female salespeople. Not that have taken the male identity that way.

I disagree. Oh, yeah. I disagree. There are women. I'm thinking. I'm thinking. And I don't necessarily think this is good. But I think that a lot of women have been putting the position of wanting to be one of the boys and needing to match that energy. But they've got to be tougher. And needing to put other women down and talk about how, you know, like, we all, like, I want to be just as masculine. And so I think that character fits. And I think the character can continue, like, that narrative. But she has to put other women down. And she has to. And that's why the whole idea of her, if it was a woman, also not being able to sell to the wife. I'm, like, 100%. For sure. Like, I know a lot of those.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering, I'm wondering, did the guys, did you guys even notice that it was all a male cast? If it was all women, you'd be like, oh, this is strange. Did you really reflect on the fact that, like, oh, it's all men's? I didn't notice at all. Oh, yes. Absolutely. I didn't notice at all. Yeah. I didn't notice until the end. I've got sisters, so, yeah. Literally until the end, I was like, oh, shit. You didn't realize it was all men. No. Hold on. Hold on. How long, ladies? How long did it take you to be like, oh, yeah, I forgot. There's no women in this thing. How long? Did I? I never forgot. Exactly. Exactly. Like, and that is a thing that, like. That's this. What does that say?

This is what my dad had written on his desk after he passed away. It says, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Yeah. Privilege isn't like I was born with a silver spoon. Privilege is when I drive down the street and I get pulled over, I don't have to worry about getting shot. We have a different experience. Privilege is I don't have to worry about what I'm wearing today so I don't get sexually harassed. Privilege is when I watched Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, the fact that it was all male had zero impact on my view of that. It didn't even register to me that there weren't women. Not that it wouldn't register me if I was watching an all-female cast. You know what I mean?

But if you ask that question, I had. When you get to a movie with all-white characters. I noticed. Exactly. It's like, you know what I mean? I walk into a stadium in Boston and it's all white. I don't even fucking blink, right? There's no white people in fiction. Yeah. There's a reason for that. You guys have taste. Yeah. That's not our hangout spot. You guys don't want to get out of it. Yeah. It would be a very interesting remake as an all-female cast. I think it would be a really interesting remake. Let's do it tonight. I think it would be just as awesome equally as amazing. Oh, my God. The Patel situation. Is that a movie too? So, yo, that's straight up from the movie. Yeah. Because I've sold to Patel's and I won, by the way.

I know. I was thinking of being like, I mean, they own a bunch of hotels. We got money to spend on this shit. We didn't have money to spend. So, so. That's amazing. I was just like, wait, they say Patel like twice. Yeah. Yeah. And then they said Shiva, Vishnu. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, dude. Watch the movie, man. And also, don't you love the intentionality of the fact that it's like, we're going to choose Indian, where it's like, that's a little safer for us to be really, really good. And I'm looking around. I'm looking around. We're not going to do it. I'm going to choose. So, hold on. I also. So, Casey. I was like this the whole time. You're like, Patel. Oh, I knew it was coming. I'm the only brown guy in this damn.

I don't know when I was playing. I was like, this is ridiculous. I need some solidarity over here. So, Casey, I think you make a good point about the timing of all of this right now. So, I'm going to flip it a bit. Just like in what's going on out today, where black men are being essentially neutered and pushed aside. Did anybody notice that the weakest character of the entire place was his boss? Yes. Right? Who absolutely had two things. He had no soul, for one. And secondly, he had absolutely no desire to try and stop what was going on. Yeah. Because he felt as though he didn't. He was powerless to be able to make any change. Hold still. Hold still. So, let's bring it back to America today.

Hold still. I need to ask this question. I need to ask this question. Do you think that was intentional? 100%. Okay. So, there wasn't... There's a token component. So, let me ask the token question. Was the token component, or do you think this was intentional to put him in that role to represent... Leadership management. No, no, no. I think it goes way deeper than just tokenism. Okay. No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like, were they intentional with that choice? Oh, very much so. Yeah. Because what it did was it went beyond him just being a token. It put him in a position where he was in a position of power, but he had absolutely no power at all. So, but this is confusing to me because there is a nuance to that that is very interesting about how they put that there to represent that.

But to the average person that doesn't have that type of insight, they just put a black man in a position of weakness. So, what's your thoughts on that? Hold on. I've been that guy. Yeah, I know. We talked about it. You know what I'm talking about. We talked about it. The chief fucking diversity officer. I'm not going to say the company, but we'll call him Big Conker. Yeah. Where I was in a position by title, by responsibility. But I literally had no power from the first day that I walked into the company. The way that they brought me in was underhanded. It was devious. They had a guy that was in my position. He didn't even know I'd been hired as his boss. And he was the guy that everybody loves.

So, when I walked in, I was the guy that was supposed to chop heads. I was supposed to come in and be the savior, if you will. I can do that right now. Okay. I didn't say savior. You can be savior for sure. And so, I noticed it right away. From the very first SLT meeting that we had, everyone talked around me. Yeah. Of course. And I went, okay, at first I thought, maybe I'm the new guy. And then two, three times in, I was like, I have been set up to fail from day one. And I think the same thing of that character. So, what he represents is someone that is a black man that's in a powerful position by title, who literally has zero power. And here's the thing I really do. If someone black was involved in that decision, I'm so curious if there's someone in the writing staff or somebody involved.

It had to be. Right? Absolutely it had to be. But this is the problem with that, though. Because we live it. No, but this is the problem with that, is that this group right here is intelligent to have this conversation, understand that representation in context. I don't think the average person does. So, unfortunately, 90% of the people that went to that show, and this is my question for you guys, like how you feel about this, is genuinely, like, this is a very thoughtful conversation about that. And the nuance of placing that there to represent what it did was, was holy shit, if that's what they fucking did. But, to the average lack of intellect, lack of curiosity person, they saw a black man in a subservient role, even who had power like you were.

So, is that a good thing or a bad thing, that it is striking this conversation, or the masses looked at it as the fucking most useless position in that entire fucking play was a black man? I think it's a great conversation because what it does is sparked. I stood up during the break, and I looked around intentionally to see what the audience looked like. And, like, with you, I'm looking around to see how many brown people were in here and who looked like me. And something hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like, this is their ICP. Yeah. And so, those are the people that they know will need to come and see this. Hold still. Can I just ask real quick on this point? How many women, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted you.

That's okay. But how many women, did you look around to see how many women were there? Yeah, I did. But I think it's a lot of couples. But couples. It was couples. This is dating where the guys were there. It was couples. Okay. It wasn't like women came to see it. This is dating where they were there. They came with their partner. Yeah. Right? And so, and with us, I looked around and I was like, we're not here because we're not their ICP for this. Black person, like, thinking about this. But I do think, like, that's art, dude. Yeah. You make great fucking art. Yeah. And you know that 90% of the people that consume what you create will not understand that. And that doesn't mean you dumb it down for them or you lessen it.

That's fair. And I also think it's, my instinct is, I don't think they look at that and they say, oh, he's the weakest guy. They look at it, oh, he's the guy with the title and he's being like, no, I won't do that for you. So I think there's a lot of people that would look at it and be like, mm, but I'm just saying, like, if we're talking about. From life experience, I got to disagree with you. Yeah, I would agree. That was intentional. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm saying the, to John's point, the dumb people that don't get the thing, I think might also not get the, how powerless he was. And that's all I, that's all I'm saying. So again, it goes back to parallel of America right now.

Yeah. Right? And that is, their audience is the lowest common denominator in their mind. Yeah. And think about where we are in America right now. But that was such an intellectual conversation. I don't know. Hold on, I'm sorry. Like, on this crowd, do you think it was the intellect was on the- The lowest common denominator is not going to Google, Google, Google, Google, Google, Google, Google. I don't think so. I think this was an intellectual, I think this was an intellectual play. I want to say something without saying something. Please, go ahead. It's not this group, that group, I'll finger quote, right? But what it is, is it's a group that they're safe to have that look, that feel. And if they take it to that next step, then like we're doing right now, we'll go forward.

What I love is that it's sparking this conversation at all. And my hope is that this is not the only room that people walked out of and they're having- That's my fear. Yeah. You started the conversation by saying, what if there was a woman there? Like, that kind of like- Twisted the whole show. Yeah. And I do think- In such a warm way. I do think they might- What if the black guy was super masculine? It would have changed everything. What if they what? What if the black guy's Roma? What if the black guy's Moss? Like, the whole thing gets- Yeah, if he's anyone else. If he's Moss, I'll tell you what happened. That would be a very different message. It would be, he's too aggressive. How about if that was a black woman?

Even in line. Oh, oh, if it was a black woman, then you know what? She would have been ostracized right away. They would have been running to HR and she would have been fired before lunch. That choice, that choice is a stirring choice. That's how I see everything. I mean, it was intentionally done. There's no question about it. Well, there's no question it's intentional, but- But the more I'm thinking about it, the more I realize how stirring that choice was. Yeah, and like I said, what I'm hoping is that it's stirring these conversations. Well, there's this- Can you say this? Yeah, that's kind of Spacey's character. Do you know this after leaving Glenn Garrick? No, I'm not talking about right now, tonight.

No, no, no. But I'm saying in conversation. It really does change anything. It's your own character having to be a black man. No, they're all probably drunk right now. I can't agree with God. We watch it in the room they're doing over there. What, the casting? No, that nobody's talking about it. I think- No, that's a lot of- I mean, I'm sure it would, but something very poignant about it, being a black man in a position of leadership- The Hispanic one is interesting. I'm masculine. I'm masculine. Completely masculine. And again, especially given what is happening- It's parallel. Yeah, it feels very, very intense. The timing of it coming back- This play is 30, 40 years old. Yeah, so why now? Why now?

I think you just hit on something. Like, I, I, and I really do think I have developed such a crazy amount of respect for Bob Odenkirk. Like, dude is a, he is so brilliant. He's so nerdy. And by the way, this was his whole thing. Like, he went to Mamet, like, decades ago and was like, someday. So, like, he was the one who's really behind all of this. Yeah, and, like, genuinely, if you do a little bit of research on him, he is so brilliant and nerdy and smart. And, like, if you've watched any of, like, Better Call Saul, like, like, it's all the, like, little layers of things. And I would very much bet that, like, everything we're saying of, like, all of the nuance, 100% intentional. And I bet, I think we're all really fucking smart in this room.

I bet there's some elements to it that we have not figured out yet. And, like, I'm excited for, like, in a week, we're going to, I'm going to get, like, a mass text from someone in this group being, like, oh, my God, I figured it out. Like, it's literally, like, the underbelly of Severin. There's so many little messages there. So, so, so, so here's one thing that I don't know that anyone has tapped in on. And that is, so, after the break-in and everything is messy, who's the only guy that was cleaning up? But that's awesome, that's in the, that's in the original. But, but what I'm saying is, in parallel to where we are right now, he, no one else picked up a piece of paper off the ground. Right, yeah.

But he had to go clean the whole place up before he could disappear off into his little office. And then he, and then he got totally disparaged for just being the office manager. Like, he got completely, yeah. That's all true to the, that's all true to the original. That's all true to the movie. It's all true to the original. But it does take a completely different, in context now. No, you're making an awesome point. It really changes a perspective with the casting. It really does. Absolutely. Here's one that I guess, based on that. I hadn't thought of any of that. By the first act, though, like, I thought I just kept getting all these small things. By the second act, what I realized was that we were watching these, these white males complain about making, being able to make.

First world problems. That's right, the first thing that came to mind, which I know that it was really, it was spot on to the movie for sure, but it took a whole different, just the whole thing spent in my head after that first act. The way they laid, every conversation was laid out in its own very unique parallel, where they all wanted something that they thought they deserved. Deserved. You get that, you get the first. Not earned, but deserved. And the first, that they're entitled to. They're entitled to, absolutely. The first scene is his entitlement speech. Yeah. Yeah. I keep referencing. I was eight months out of 12 in 1979. Yeah, I'd thought of these, like, the entitlement. I think it was 69.

It was 69. It was like so way back. So it goes way back, but he's still living on that glory. Yeah. And I do, that. And by the way, the fact that he still has a job says something. I'm going to put you on the spot. There's one, no, because I think it's interesting, and I don't know why. I'm still trying to figure it out. If we think that it's very intentional, Morgan brought up the cop was Hispanic. I'm still trying to figure that one out. Was he? Yeah. I couldn't tell from my speech. The cop was Hispanic. I don't know what the. So I'm still trying to clock, like, what was the reason behind that? You don't make random. No, no, no. Yeah, right? Everything. So then I was like. Not in that size of cast.

So then I was like. That was six people in the cast. Why an Hispanic cop? I still have not been able to understand that. What was the movie? No. No. No. That's why I was like. No, the movie was all white. It was all white. I had like a full on Miami Vice vibe going with that. I was thinking that time. I mentioned like Dexter. I was like, this feels like a Dexter guy. That's what I felt they were doing. Yeah. It was going deep. Yes. Oh my God. I felt like cute. The black one I clocked. I was like, that makes sense. He doesn't have as much of a role. That's for sure. Like it is very much. I come in the room. It's kind of muted. It's just kind of niggulous. It's like. Interesting. Yeah. But why would the Hispanic guy have to be the only true asshole by everybody?

That's what I'm saying. That's just like. What was the reason behind that? It was hated by everyone. Sure. You're wrestling hated. Yeah. He represents. Every single time. He represents authority, which they all agree they don't like. Yeah. Yeah. Like that, that, that was kind of that. That's how I read that rule. Like it was like, we all agree we hate the cops. Like we all agree we hate because they're all. And we do. They're all cheaters. And we do. Yeah. They're all, they're all cheaters. They're all liars. They're all, every one of them. Everyone's on the take. Everyone will cheat. Everyone will rob. Everyone will steal. Yeah. So for them, that, oh, we all hate that fucking guy. Like, so that, that was easy.

That was easy. Yeah. That was easy. I think what we do is we, we watch it from our own lived experience. And so each of us have our own unique, you know, vibe on it and like what we take from it, what we see from it. And that's what's so, you know, wonderful about hearing everybody's perspectives here because it's, I find it fascinating, right? Like the whole thing and, um, and understanding and again, being able to hear other people's perspectives. Cause when he was saying too, about being set up as a leader, that happens to so many women. Yeah. They have the, they have the title and they don't have the power. And so when he said that and I was like, oh, and, and just, you know, just the whole thing.

So I just really appreciate everybody's perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great way to end it. So that was fucking fantastic. Thank you, John Barras. Thank you. Thank you, John. Cheers. Thanks everybody for coming out, man. This is, uh, this is what happens when good people together. This is what happens when you bring good people together. You learn, you grow, you have cool conversations like this. You don't solve world problems, but you spread positivity and, uh, you make somebody smile. So thanks everybody. Cheers. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now.

And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day, just like you go to j barrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today. Let's all level up and make this happen together. Let's all level up and make this happen together.