What the Best BDR Teams Are Doing Differently Right Now with Lauren Reeves

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Now let's get on with the show. Hey everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health and everything in between. We guess who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. This week, we got Lauren Reeves on the show. Lauren is a senior BDR manager at Swap Commerce, one of the fastest growing e-commerce software companies in the world right now. She's got seven years experience exclusively in the BDR and SDR space. She scaled the team at Swap from six reps to over 40 across three global offices. She grew up in Kent outside of London, studied journalism at Cardiff University, has a background in dance that took her to China at 16 years old, which is pretty cool.

And she co-hosts a podcast called Can't Take the Call Right Now, which is pretty cool. I found Lauren through her LinkedIn content and her vibes stood out to me immediately. It's one of those things where I actually don't know why she just popped onto the screen, but for me on my feed, but she's been posting consistently for a couple of years now. And she is one of the biggest champions of SDRs right now, where everybody else is just saying SDRs are done, BDRs are over, you know, AI is taking over that role. And she is the shining light that is an example of why they're not, which is why I wanted to talk to her because, you know, look, I train SDRs, BDRs all the time. I have for the vast majority of my career, but I'm not there on the floor anymore with them.

I'm not like making the calls, doing the coaching, you know, every single day. So I don't see what's really happening. So I wanted to get her perspective on this and she has some great perspective. I mean, she, a lot of the stuff that, that tried and true things that I remember and I still teach on, she's an advocate for, I mean, the phone still works when done right. You know, email hyper-personalization that she talked about. We talked about coaching the reps and hiring, which is probably the most critical. And, you know, she has the vibe check, right? Where, yeah, it's okay. They can check off all the boxes that they can do the job, but is the vibe there? And for her, she's like, I don't know if I can put my finger on it, but that's one of those things that really is critical.

So she is one of the best voices, I think right now that is championing this role and seeing results doing it. And I think that's the difference here is that so many people are talking about cold coins dead or emails dead, but they don't really show what they're doing. And, and I think it's more based on their opinion than the reality. Now, don't get me wrong. Connect rates are getting brutal. Response rates are down. But when you have the right mix of the team, the management, the vibe, the company, SDR, BDR roles still execute at a extremely high level and provide a ton of value to an organization. So this was a breath of fresh air out of all the AI doom and gloom about this role. And I really love the conversation with Lauren, what she's doing over there.

So hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Lauren Reeves, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. How are you doing today? I'm doing so well. Thank you for having me. When you messaged, I was like, I've listened to this podcast for so long. And I was like, wait a minute. Yeah, no, I'm good. It's nice and late now in the UK. We had a good day. And then we're prepping for Thursday tomorrow. So yeah, pretty good. How about you? Brilliant. Good, real good. I mean, you know, these days it's, I go from being super optimistic and like, I can conquer the world to, oh my God, we're all going to die. Like within, you know, every 30 minutes for crying out loud. So right now I'm super optimistic and feeling good.

So at this moment, things are fantastic. Take you in 12 hours. It's fine. Yeah, exactly. Who knows? But I mean, outside of all the macroeconomic stuff, that's a whole different story. So, but the micro of what you can control, I think things are going okay for now. Yeah. So one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the podcast was because, you know, by the way, just so that I'm catching up here, how long have you been posting on LinkedIn? Like how long have you been really like, like getting the voice out there for SDRs and kind of champion that cause? So I've actually, I've posted on LinkedIn pretty much since I was an SDR myself, which was over seven years ago now. I would say I had a good chunk of time when I was an SDR for about a year and a half where I post a lot of content for myself when I was an SDR, what I was seeing.

And then when I first stepped into management, I kind of went quiet because I thought, how could I share my advice when I'm new to management? I've not, I've not earned my stripes yet, basically. It's how I felt. Not that I think anyone would have thought that. I think actually people would have loved to have seen me talk about my experience, but you know how it is. You're thinking, oh my God, I'm being judged in public. We can't have that. So I would say I've consistently posted on LinkedIn now for about two years and it's been focused on BDR, helping BDRs, being a leader, my experience as a manager, et cetera. And then the video content, I really stepped up in the last like 18 months. Okay, cool.

Cause yeah, cause it's interesting. Like you, I think you popped into my feed about six months ago and, and that's where I started kind of being like, all right, you know, there's somebody out there at least championing the, the BDR role when everything else is being against it. So that's really why I wanted to talk to you because, you know, I, you know, obviously I train BDRs, I train SDRs, I've trained up my entire career and, you know, but I'm not on the ground floor anymore, making the calls, coaching them one-on-one and, you know, I have my opinions about what's going on and what needs to happen in the shift, but I wanted to really hear from you on the ground floor of what's working, what's not, and, and what's working so well for you.

Cause you guys are kicking ass over there. So, so, but before we get into any of that, Lauren, I always love to hear the, the, you know, your, your arc, if you will, and the stuff that we can't find on, on LinkedIn. And for you, you know, the dance theme that the theater and going to China and all that stuff is fascinating to me and then journalism. So walk me through kind of what made Lauren Lauren, your, your influences as a kid. Um, and, and, and I'm very curious about the Chinese going to China and dancing in front of us. So, so could you walk us through that and then we'll get into the details of the SDR stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up somewhere called Kent, which is just Southeast of London, um, from a very working class family.

My dad's an electrician. My mom helped manage some calves. Um, in fact, growing up, my mom didn't work. So it's a single income household. Um, and so growing up, I always had like an idea in my head. Okay. But I could tell they were living paycheck to paycheck, couldn't always get to go on the school trip or whatever, but they spoiled me in other ways. So I started dancing when I was two and a half years old and I loved it and I still love it. I think dance is amazing. I think any form of like expression, what kind of dance, what kind of dance? Uh, I did all of it, all of it. What's your favorite, is it? I think my favorite is like commercial because it's very emotive. Um, I wear my feelings on my face and I think with commercial dance, it's fun because you can get like proper into it, but did the whole shebang, ballet, tap, jazz, commercial, did the competitions, all of that growing up.

Um, and when I got to around 15, 16, it was that decision of, do I go to performing arts college or do I do my A-levels and then go to university? And at the time, so not that it matters as much now, but I'm, I'm not a skinny gal. I'm not by any means overweight, but I'm not skinny. And in dance, you had to be pretty skinny at that point. There was, you know, Kim Kardashian changed people's opinions of bodies. Like, but at that point that was not the case for me, had to be skinny. It was still very much that physique and that wasn't my physique. So I already had this idea that it was going to be quite difficult. Um, and I really enjoyed school. I loved reading. I still love reading. Um, and I was like, okay, what could I do at university?

That's kind of creative. I get to use my brain a bit, but it's not just an English lit degree. And I was like, I'll just do journalism. Honestly, it was just, I was just, I was just literally in at school. Like, what kind of degree can I do? I came up with it. And so I chose to go to the university path because I basically was like, okay, there's every chance that I won't get employed if I'm a dancer. And looking back with COVID, all of my performing artist friends were unemployed for the longest time, you know? So, you know, you're like, in hindsight, like, wow, like that was never the way I could have predicted. But look at the difference of my life because I made that decision. So went to university.

Um, and yeah, I then go into sales. But before that, because I know you're interested in China. So I, like I said, I've done a lot of different genres of dance and the dance school that I attended was partnered with somewhere called Fasan in the, I've pronounced that terribly, in the south of China. Um, they had like their own little school out there and their students would come to the UK. And then we would get invited to go out to China. So I got invited one year when I was 16 to go out and perform for the Chinese New Year celebrations in Fasan in China, which was so, so fun. Yeah, it was incredible, incredible. What did that teach you about just people, right? Cultures, because I mean, I think that's one of the things that, you know, once you get out of your little hometown in your area, right.

And you start to see the world and how, even, even if you can't speak the language, what were some of the things you took away from that experience that you feel shaped you today? I think one of the biggest things for me that I found so interesting was, and I've been to China twice. I went again when I was 18 to go for like a trek and some villages and things. So very different experiences. But when I went the first time, I think that is so interesting how, because I was from England and I'm part of the Western world, they, they sort of looked at us like we were like celebrities. And I literally was like, wow, blonde hair, right. It was so interesting. Whereas I feel like, because also there isn't as much diversity in China.

Most people that live in China are Chinese. And obviously in this main cities, there will be some diversity of culture because most cities do have a diversity of culture. But where I was did not have that. Like I didn't see anyone else looking like me. Like everyone was mostly Chinese. And it did remind me like, wow, like there's like so much that you don't know. And I think it's 16 that getting reminded of that is, is quite, it's like a step back. I think as an adult, you, you know that more, you can be more humble about it. But when you were like 16 to the kid, like, so yeah, you're a genius. You know, everything. Your parents are stupid and you're a genius, right? The whole, I'm going through that right now with my daughter.

You're like 30 and you're 16. It's hilarious. I look back and I'm like, God, girl. And yeah, I just, I remember just thinking like, wow, like my life is so different. And it's really common to go to boarding school in China. Most people do boarding school. And I thought that was so fascinating as I couldn't imagine being in boarding school. Like you guys literally have to stay at school every day, five days away from your parents. You know what I mean? Like crazy. Like, it just, I think it was like, it was a big, like, well, like life here is so different. What I did find really, really lovely actually about Chinese culture is they were all so happy. Everyone was so happy. And I was like, if you went into a school in the UK and you looked around, the vibe would not be happiness.

Most of them would be frowns, leaning on their elbow, like, oh, look at home. But they genuinely were so grateful to be there. And I think that that was something that was just really kind of eye opening as well. I just think they've got such a better culture around gratitude and like thankfulness about what they get and things. I just don't think we're not as ingrained. I would just take it for granted in the UK. So, and Western world generally. So yeah, it's so, so cool. Really cool experience. So journalism. What did you learn there? Like, I mean, it's about questioning, asking better questions. Like, so from a sales standpoint, I got to imagine that because right now, you know, there was a trend obviously when it was, oh, you want to be a coder and you got to be engineer and all this other stuff.

And people kind of laughed at liberal arts degrees and stuff like journalism. Like, oh, give me a break. Right. Like you just wasted four years. Now, all that stuff is coming back in vogue because IQ is kind of almost a commodity at this point. And EQ is everything. So the ability to read people, the ability to ask better questions. So what were some of the things? And just from my perspective, I kind of skipped through college. I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. You know, if I look back on it, there was, there was those foundational learnings, but I had a hard time looking at them back then. Was there something that stood out to you about journalism that, that significantly helped you when you, when you moved into your sales career?

I think what was so brilliant about my course was it really dived into the culture, cultural impacts within society, why good journalism is important, media bias, and noticing when stories or views are very construed in one way or another. And that was one thing I really loved about my degree. And there was so much around like women in the workplace, feminism, diversity. And I think stepping in to sales, there's a lot of that there too. I think what's so interesting, just like generally is that women were the secretaries. We were the ones that did the memos, et cetera. And then it transitioned and actually being a journalist was a really male profession, which was really interesting because that was seen as more intelligent and women couldn't do that.

And so there was like so much like breaking down of stereotypes and things like that. And that's what you have in sales as well. Very much still the case where it is majority men. There's not as many female leaders, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that going into my working career, having learned how to study and understand media literacy and what's sort of being presented to you definitely had a really big impact on me because I was very vocal as soon as I entered the workplace. I'm very vocal anyway, but I think that when you're new, especially at 21 entering the, you know, corporate, you know, I've worked, I worked in bars. I worked in nightclubs and I was at university because I needed money to pay my bills because otherwise I couldn't.

And so I worked my whole way through university. Then I go into a nine, five job after being used to working 8:00 PM till 7:00 AM on the, on the bar shift, like was such a difference, but it also meant that I was happy to say, oh, I don't like that. Why do we do it that way? That doesn't make sense to me. Like just out of interest. Like, why do we do that? Whereas I think a lot of people, when they're that young and they're entering the workplace, they won't ask questions. They'll just do what they're told basically. Like, oh yeah, that's just how things are. That's just how they are. And I was not like that. I feel really sorry for my first manager. I honestly look back and I think, Mark, I'm sorry for what I put you through.

Because I questioned everything. And that definitely came from my time at university. I think I learned a lot outside of my degree, not just in it. I think it was so interesting being with people that had parents that could pay for them to be at university, could give them money every month. They didn't need to work. They could get on with it. They could literally just do their degree and then go out. Because obviously we, at 18, we can drink in the UK. So everyone's pissed, basically. Yeah, exactly. Whereas I was working 36 hour weeks and doing my degree and I wasn't going out. I was the one serving them the alcohol in the bar. And I think that that taught me so much about money management, about managing my time, um, the importance of what I'm doing, why I'm doing it.

Whereas I think none of my, none of my friends didn't get that until they left university. I think they had the wake up call there. Whereas I had that at 18. So I think that also made a difference stepping into a sales career for sure. Is that something now that you're a manager, is that something, are there certain, uh, cause I always say like being a waiter or waitress, like that, that's a, that's a green flag. That's, that's something I look for because you have to adjust and it's about hard work. The harder you work, the more you get paid and you have to adapt and all that stuff. When you're looking to hire, because you went from six to 40 at, um, where you are at now. And do you look for certain characteristics that, that stand out to you outside?

Cause everybody's resume is going to be perfect these days with AI specifically. Um, so what are some of the characteristics you look for, um, that highlight, ooh, this is, this is somebody that, that fits my vibe, that fits the plan. Like, what are we doing? Yeah. I, I love it when I hear that someone's worked whilst they went to university college. Like that says a lot to me because it means that, you know, that nothing comes for free. You had to go and you had to go get, even if your parents did support you and they did give you money, but you still chose to go and get a part-time job. If that was a Saturday morning at a coffee shop for three hours, you still chose to go and do that. That is such a good sign to me because it shows you've got, there's something ticking there.

You're already on it in that sense. So I love that. Then when I'm having my conversations with people and I ask them, the first question I ever ask is, so how did you come across the BDR role? Tell me about, about how you, why are you here? What happened? And the answer to that also tells me a lot because some people will be genuine. They'll be like, I need a job. And so I started looking and I saw this role and based on what it sort of lays out, honestly, it seems like I can do it. I think that I suit this role. And I'm like, okay, why do you think that I suit the role? Tell me, did it. But then you get some people that are like, I just think that the BDR role is great. Why? Why is it great?

That doesn't, that doesn't answer my question. Like, give me more. And then my favorite is when people are like, oh yeah, like my friend does it. Okay. So what is it? So just because your friend does it, why don't you think you're good at it? Tell me about your friend. What about your friend says that that means that you're going to get this role? Tell me about that. And the answer to that tells me a lot. So I always start my interviews with that. And then as I'm digging in, one thing that I start doing on interviews is I actually give them live feedback and how they respond to that feedback says a lot to me as well. Like, okay, are they coachable? Are they open to learning? Do they, you know, want to develop?

That's all there just in that first conversation. And I'm sure a lot of managers would agree with me on this, but there's also just a vibe. And I hate saying that because it's like, you can't write that on the interview feedback. Sorry, you just didn't match my vibe. But when you're chatting to someone, I think it's the same as when you're speaking to somebody and you're like, oh, you're a bit rude. Like you can just tell there's something about them. And I think I'll be on an interview with somebody and their answers will just be like that little bit too vague or I'm not feeling enough of that oomph towards it. And you can tell that they have applied for this role because they needed a job, not because they wanted the job.

And that is that they're two different things. Everyone needs a job. We all got bills to pay. But I want you to want this job, not just have the job because you need a job. And when I feel that I'm like, no, I always say as well, I do not want to work with a dick. I say that in every interview. I go, I don't work with dicks. I work with nice people. You could be the best person I interview. And I think that your skill is going to match up with everything. But if I don't think you're going to be a nice person, you're not my team. That's so important to me as well. What are you bringing to my team? What's the culture that I think that you're going to keep creating? Because, yeah, that can ruin a team so fast, so, so fast.

Yeah, top performers specifically even. And it's funny because you bring that up, you know, the translate that I make called the give a shit factor, right? Which is, you know, when I talk about sales and, you know, Morgan Ingram, right? I tell this story a lot. You know, he was working for me and he was my first hire when I was doing what I was doing. And, you know, he was doing great. He was SDR, SDR manager, right? And then he kind of leveled off. He was doing all these cadences and they were great. And, and he came to me, he goes, John, I just, I'm not getting the results. I feel like I'm doing all the right things. I'm not getting the results. What do I need to change? And I said, Morgan, your results aren't going to change until one thing does, man.

And he's like, what? And I'm like, until you start giving a shit. Until you start giving a shit. And I don't, I mean, I know you give a shit about this job, but until you start caring about the client and stop teaching, you know, treating them like a number to hit, a cadence to send, a call, whatever. Until you start thinking of them as a human who wakes up in the morning, has to put their kid on the bus, has to drive in traffic, has to go to work, has to get their boss yelling at them, has a million different fucking priorities on their plate that are more important than your shit cold call. Until you start thinking of them that way, man, it's not going to change. And I, and the same thing with interviews.

I can get, I can sense the give a shit factor from a mile away. Is this kid a professional interviewer that's been on 10 interviews and has got the perfect answers? Or did they give a shit enough to do and ask real questions? You know, like come in prepared, not just prepared, but curious. And that to me, it's funny that you do the same thing I used to do, which is when I would, because everybody interviews perfect, right? Or they, most people, some people. Best answers, all this stuff. But then you put them in a scenario, coachable scenario. And what I would do as big, all right, whatever you're selling, what do you, what do you use to sell? Okay, cool. I'm going to go in the other room. I want you to cold call me.

And all I want you to do is get a meeting. I'm your perfect ICP. I'm your perfect ideal customer profile. And all you're trying to do is get a meeting with what you currently sell. Right? So they do it. Okay, fine. I'd come back and give them feedback, whether they're good or bad. I didn't care if it was a train wreck of a call, but if I give them feedback, I'd be like, all right, now here's the scenario. I'm now working for my company. This is who, right. And you're trying to sell my services to this, whatever. Have them make the call again. Yeah. And I didn't care if it was awesome. I just cared if they paid attention to what I told them. No, it's so true. So true. And I think what I love so much about the team that I've built here, a comparison, just like previous teams that I've managed is exactly that.

They really give a shit about what we sell and they really give a shit about the team. They all care about each other and they all want to win together and they celebrate and they love it. And every product release that comes out, everyone buzzing about it. They're like, this is amazing. There's just such an energy around being at work, being a team, working together that I've never experienced before the way I have in previous roles. And on that, also like giving a shit feeling as well. It's so interesting because I've had people start that were hired by other people. And in my first conversation with them, I'd be like, no, they were a bad hire. And I've instantly messaged and be like giving you a pre warning.

I think they're out the door in the next few months. Oh, why? Got the feeling. And I've been right about everyone. I think that if you are a leader, you need to learn your radar. You've got to find the radar because once you have it, it makes hiring and it makes letting people go so much easier because you just know it's the right decision. There's been people I've let go that I love as people. I think they're amazing. They're fun. They're brilliant to work with. Great colleague. They're no good for the role. They can't do the role. It's not for them as much as they want it to be for them because they want to make the money. They're not making the money because it's not for them. So do them the justice, let them go find something else.

Like that's actually a good service for doing. And yeah, I think that just that as a whole is just so important. Even like following into the conversation about what do I see working now? Hiring is so important into that, in that conversation, like good team, huge difference, huge difference. Makes all the difference in the world. I mean, it really does. And, and so that's why they, you know, the managers that outsource the hiring component of it to HR or somebody else, or, or just are like a cog in the wheel of, yep. Okay. I did my interview, whatever. Tell me who we're hiring. I think that's just a fool's errand. I don't care how busy you are. If you're not making time to get to know the people that are going to be on your team that you're going to be managing and making sure that not only are they good at whatever they can do, but are they, do they align with your values?

Do they check, you know, do the vibe check? Do they have a give a shit factor? Those pieces, the subjective pieces that you can only gather by meeting somebody and spending some time with them. Almost all my final interviews were at lunch. We would just go to a bar and, and we'd just like shoot the shit. And it was like, I just got to get the vibe check on you because if the vibe check is cool, we're good. But if the vibe check is not, sorry. Uh, so, so with, with your first, cause your first, um, was it, uh, tip, how do you pronounce that? That must've been a brutal cold call. Um, so say it. So what was, what made you choose that company? Like what was your criteria? Cause you, you've obviously picked a winner here with swap, right?

I mean, there, there's something about what you guys are doing outside of being great at being an SDR and having a cool vibe. This company is pretty bad-ass and it's done some, it's doing some super cool shit. And it's always easy, a little bit easier, obviously to sell something that's cool as shit and hit the market at the right time right now. So let's put that caveat over here. But you know, what were you looking for? A lot of kids out of school, they just look, to your point, they're just looking for a job and, and, and there's like, I, whatever. Okay, fine. I'm just looking for a job. Was there something about that company that, that you said, I want to work there or were you kind of a typical kid looking for interviews, open opportunities?

How did you, how did that, how did you find this? Yeah. So by the time I actually interviewed at Palty, I'd been in SDR for three years, which in SDR land is a long time. Wait, so what were you before that then? I was at a few places. Um, I was, uh, I was, my first SDR role was somewhere called query click, which wasn't actually a SaaS solution. It was like a paid ad agency. Very strange role. Um, and that's where I have my brilliant manager, Mark, poor guy. Um, and I loved working there. The people there were brilliant, but it wasn't a SaaS. It wasn't a SaaS solution. They were like creating something, but it wasn't actually ready for market yet. And so I was like, okay, I need to move into another role.

So moved into a different company, which was influencer marketing. So this was back in 20, beginning of 20, uh, no end of 2020 was when I joined the influence marketing. So like that's when it was just transitioning. Like it was just really becoming something, but it wasn't quite there yet. The company I were ahead of their time. Unfortunately, that she did go bust in the end. I think they just had an idea that maybe if they'd created it in like 2021, they might've seen a whole different type of uptick, but unfortunately they were just a little bit, a couple of years too early. So I left there and I went to somewhere, uh, that was called originally our tandem and it was HR tech and I was a lone SDR.

It was me and my lovely AE. And I was just ringing HR people, fancy, you know, giving good employee experience. Um, and it was about reviews and actually having like a good review process. So obviously everyone gets there by yearly or yearly reviews and it's really bad process that it does. That's what the tech was. It was amazing. I loved it because it really allowed you to give good feedback, which is, I think one thing that a lot of people miss, they don't get good feedback. So love selling that solution. It was brilliant. And then they got acquired. Okay. And in an acquisition, it goes one of two ways. It's amazing or it's not great. And unfortunately it wasn't great for me. Yeah. Usually it's the other side.

Yeah. So I, at this point had been a BDR SDR for three years and I'd known in about in the last year, I wanted to go into management. I decided like, okay, I don't want to be an AE. I just looked at that role and honestly, nothing about it appeals to me. I don't get it. I don't get you lot that love it. I think it's an awful role. Um, that's exaggeration. I just, I love, I love people. I love coaching. I love saying to somebody, give that a go. They do it, they win. That really fuels me. And obviously there's elements of that as an AE, but like, that's not really the job. The job is, you know, selling and I just knew, I just knew I wouldn't like it. I was self-aware enough to know that. So decided, okay, it's, I want to go into management.

And that was not an opportunity for me at all, um, at my place once it'd been acquired. And so I started looking and I kind of knew there was a chance that I'd probably have to be an SDR again, because a lot of places won't hire you fresh as a manager, if you've not done it before, because it's a risk, right? Which is fair enough. I got so lucky. The whole management is a whole, management is a whole different ballgame, right? Teaching people how to do, that's why it's always horrible when I see companies promote like their best, whatever to be the manager. I'm like, uh, usually the best of whatever it is, is going to be a terrible manager because they're good for, for subjective reasons, for, for just innate reasons that cannot be transferred in a lot of ways.

You want, I always look for the B B plus rep to be the manager, the, the one who can create a player. Right. Same here. Like I was BB plus right. Yeah. Same here. Yeah. I will completely always, I was never an A player. I was never the person that was smashing my target 200%. Like I did what I needed to do because I was doing a lot of stuff outside of work. So I was posting on LinkedIn. I was a part of SDRs of London. I was doing some mentoring to some newer SDRs. And I was loving that. That's where I was like, I was doing all my passion stuff there. And I basically met who had become my manager through the community SDRs of London. And I actually was interviewing for a different role that was like a team lead manager style role.

And I'd messaged her because she was a manager and I went, Hey, I've got this interview. I would just really love it if you gave her once over on my case study because you're in the role. So you, you know, can help me make sure I'm on the right track. She was like, yeah, cool. Like, no problem. Like, let's take a look. Went through it. She's like, yeah, great. Like, good luck. I was like, thanks. She went, oh, by the way, like, feel free to say no, but I'm actually hiring it to Palti. Like, are you interested? And I was like, sure. May as well. Why not? And did this whole into the whole interview process, which at the time was a manager interview process, but I was told it was a senior SDR process, but I was like, it's fine.

If I've got to go like stay to go up, that's cool. Like it's about long-term career. And then got offered the job. And then about three weeks before I was meant to start, she rang me and was like, you're joining as a manager, by the way. And I was like, what? Honestly, like crazy, crazy. And so I joined, I started as a manager and yeah, like, love it. Love it so much. But those first six months were definitely the most terrifying six months of my entire life though. I was going to say what, like, it's a shift, right? Especially brand new. Don't have a lot of guidance. I'm guessing they probably didn't have a manager training program in the organization to teach you how to be a manager. Um, were you, were you a player coach or were you a manager?

Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jbarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2. If you've already gone through my training before, you can also sign up for my newsletter on jbarrows.com where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there, some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do.

So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review or follow me on the newsletter. It would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. Just a manager. So I've only ever been a manager. I've never been a player coach, um, which is the right way as someone that's a manager. I literally cannot imagine people that are player coaches. Like, I don't know how you're doing it. That is like, you cannot be doing your job properly. Like, I feel so sorry for you if that's your case. Um, because I don't have time as a manager, let alone if I had a KPI in my head as well, that there was a call, like, but, but yeah, so yeah, I first six months were terrifying, uh, really struggled to take feedback on because it felt really personal.

Um, which is one of the biggest lessons when I first went into management was learning how to take on feedback because it's different feedback as a manager. Like you've got someone in your team being like, oh, I didn't like the way you did that. And it's like, oh, but I did that to help you. Why did, why would you mean you didn't like it? I was trying to help you. And it's kind of learning that everyone responds to coaching differently. Like the way you approach some people isn't how you'd approach everyone. You could have the same structure, but you have to adapt it. So yeah, that first like six months of management was, was such a, such a journey. And the reason I chose to party was, it was the opposite of what I'd had before.

So they were quite established. They were at this point, series F, like it was, you know, very far down. Um, you know, I've been around for 10, 11 years, um, knew what they were selling. They were growing in London. So it had a startup vibe, but then it had all of the security of a large business. So it was just quite safe basically. And I'd always been in these really small startups, me, one other person really scrappy. And I, it was the, honestly, the perfect environment for, for learning. Actually, I got, I did get so lucky. I have to say, I know that people make their own luck, but that was luck. Like I, you know, who'd have thought one text about a whole different role would lead me to where I am.

So, so yeah. And then was there for 18 months. Yeah. A year and a half. Um, and then they started going really into that big, that big size. They're like, now they're a business. And that's when the, oh, I can't just create a sequence anymore. I can't just do a sniff. And then you're like, oh, I'm finding that quite difficult. Actually, I'd really quite like to sort of just try things and see if it worked. And that's where I got lucky again. So swap's obviously a rocket ship right now with what you guys are doing. Um, six to 40 scaled. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's talk now about what's working because there's a lot that's not, and there's a lot of SDRs right now that are seeing conversion ratios go down, uh, you know, conversations go away, their metrics are getting crushed.

And, and I think this we've indoctrinated, I feel bad to a certain degree because I think over the years we've, we've gotten away from coaching. We've gotten away from what I would consider the art of sales. And we've taught too much on the process. We've taught too much on the, the tech stack, right. And not a way to have a conversation. And now we're seeing the results of that. Cause we turned a lot of these, unfortunately SDRs and BDRs into robots. And now quite frankly, they're getting replaced by robots. So with the advent of AI and how quote unquote good it is, because I used to make fun of like personalization at scale, like shut the fuck up. Just because you changed the name, the title in the industry doesn't mean it's gotten impersonalized.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. But now he is getting pretty damn good at the personalization, picking up these trigger events. So what are you, I want to talk about your, your approach to coaching, but I want to get tactical right now on what, what is working? What's your approach to adjusting and being agile in this environment? I know you said something about like, you pick what your CEO's priority is for six months months. And you like kind of hyper-focus on that with a whole team around it with messaging and LinkedIn and everything else, but it's, things are so dynamic right now and they're changing so rapidly. What, what structure are you, let's start there. What structure do you have right now to test and see what is working and, and make adjustments so that you don't just keep, you know, doing the same thing over and over again?

Yeah. So the, the way that my reps get their, their accounts is they don't find their own accounts. They're spoiled and they get given accounts. So every quarter, which was switching to every six months, they get a new book of business, but they get to lock accounts they had in the previous quarter that either were really good conversations or they really want to keep, but it's a limit. They're only allowed to lock a certain amount. They lock those accounts. They get a new fresh free book of business, which is done by RevOps. So RevOps go and they use all of their tools to scrape and do it. I wish I could tell you what they've built. Don't have the answer to that. Clay and all the wonderful things.

Yeah, they've got a lot of things happening, but they go and they pull these accounts for us and the BDRs will have them. And then they have a quick period where they have to go through them, dispute anything that doesn't look like it's actually a good account because it's still AI, still makes mistakes. And then that's their book of business. And that's all they work for three months. So my reps are also on costly targets, which very rare for BDRs. Most BDRs and SCRs are monthly. And I love it because it really allows them to fail because they're not stressed because EG take April, right? So in the UK, we had a bank holiday and it was the Easter bank holiday. So we had the Friday and the Monday off.

It is the 15th of April and they've not had a single full working week yet because of the way that it's just fallen for the month. So because they have quarterly targets, it hasn't mattered that it's been a bit of a slower start, which is good for me. It's great for them, great for them. So that's the first thing they do. I honestly think if you're a monthly business and something's not working, genuinely like go and build a case study about switching to quarterly. If the A is a quarterly, why can't your reps be quarterly? Yeah. I've always professed that you're putting too much pressure, too much pressure in short term. And that makes reps kind of do some shady shit. You know what I mean? Like BDRs don't respond well to feeling like they don't have enough time and feeling like they're under a lot of duress because you have to remember most of these people are under 25.

Right. Like if we would take the average age of an SDR and BDR, they're probably 22, 23. You know, most of the time they're not in their late 20s or 30s because it's seen as an entry-level role, which it's not. But anyway. Well, let's talk about that for a second because when you tell kids, I always say like, I lost everything in 2023. Like I went from 6 million and 20 employees to zero overnight. And I've always sold, you know, but I, you know, hardcore selling hadn't done in a while, put my hat back on, went to work, cold call, email, LinkedIn, partnerships, everything. You can look back just February that year. I did 47 meetings in February and 70 meetings in Q1 and effectively forced myself back into existence.

And I tell reps this all the time. I go, look, if I didn't have the skill that we're learning right now and I wasn't a master at it, I wouldn't be here right now. And if you master this skill, you'll never go hungry. And as an AE, I don't understand the mentality of an AE who like is expecting leads to come to them and just close and they don't have to prospect. I tell reps all the time, I'm like, if you're, if, if I was a manager, which thankfully I'm not these days, cause I would get fired in a second. But if I was, and I had an AE sit in front of me and say, well, John, the reason I didn't, you know, hit my target is because I didn't get enough meetings for my SDR. I think before that phrase got out of their mouth, I'd fire them because why would you want to depend on somebody else for your success?

So the skill that SDRs and the muscle that they build. So how do you get your team to understand that and not rush through that process to get to be a real sales rep? Like, is there, is that an expectation you set up front? Is that what you do to coach them along the way and be like, be patient. This is not something you're going to immediately jump to or try to skip through. How do you deal with that? Cause it's so rampant right now with reps being like, oh, I just can't wait to be an AE or just like, I'm just doing the bare minimum here so I can get to the next level. It's like, God, slow down. You're gonna have a 60 year career, a 50 year career, right? Stop rushing. It's so true. I, I say it from the, from the start, anyone who knows me knows that I believe that a good BDR SDR is in seat for at least 18 months.

At least. I think that you should be at SDR BDR for two years because what you build in that role, exactly as you're saying, shouldn't leave. It should go into the rest of your sales career. And the best BDR and AE relationships are the ones where the AE is working alongside the BDR and multi-threading with them. They're the pairs that are booking the most meetings and having the most success because they're working together and the AE is happy to pick up the phone. It's happy to multi-thread. They want to be another voice involved. They're like, Hey, like, what do you need from me? Like where, which accounts quiet? Like, or which account have you like reached out to loads and different voice would help.

That is perfect. The AEs that sit back, like what normally got promoted too quickly because so, because they didn't, they didn't get there enough. And two, like, they're lazy. Like you're not a good salesperson because you're right. If something bad was to happen, what would they do? Because their first reaction would be to pick up the phone. It would be blame. And that's what I stamp out with my BDRs immediately. One, don't ask me for a promotion before a year. Don't even, don't even blink about it. It ain't happening. Like it's a policy. When I joined the business, I said to my VP, I was like, no promotions before a year. Don't care how good you are. You could join this business and you'd have been an SDR for two years.

Just left to sit in your seat for a year. You've got to prove to me you have consistency because I don't want up and down. I want steady. I want you to show me that you can do this job long-term because everyone can have a good quarter. Not everyone can have consistent good quarters. Like that's a good sales rep. So say that upfront. And then two, it's very much a case of like, I don't do excuses. I do solutions. Like, don't tell me what the problem is. Tell me how you're trying to solve it. Come to me and be like, Hey Lauren, like I've tried this, this and this. It's not working. I don't know what to do now. Great. Now I help you. But it's when people are like, Oh Lauren, that's not working.

Did you check all the resources that are there that exist? Because like these questions are asked all the time. Probably not. Go do that first. Then come back to me. Like have some self-reliance. Like learn, like realize you can go and find the answer. That you, I think looking through the notes, you had said, you had said something that I'm, I'm a big believer in, like know your numbers, like your conversion ratios and that type of thing as a rep. How do you teach them to know that? Because most reps take their $50 a day. Okay, boss, I got to go do that. But I'm always like, know your equation so you can manage up, right? Because then you become a manager's best friend. And the reason I say that is as a manager, it's kind of hard sometimes when you're sitting in front of a rep and you not, you don't know why they're not, you know, why they're struggling.

So you tend to give your opinion of what they should try and they're going to go try that. It's not going to work because they're not you. And then next week you're going to give them another one and they're going to try that. It's not gonna work. And you're going to get frustrated. Whereas if they came to you and said, Hey, boss, I've been looking at my conversion ratios, I mean, every time I get to talk to somebody who is kind of fits our profile, my conversion to a S2, you know, is off the charts, right? But I just my convert, like, I got a 1% connect rate on my phone stuff here. Like literally, I have to make 100 phone calls to even get one person on the phone. If I could we work on that, or I'm great at getting through gatekeepers.

But once I get to somebody who actually is meaningful, like I tend to stumble, could you help me with that? Now you're my best friend because I like, so how do you teach them the science of sales to understand those metrics so that they can own their own development in a lot of ways? I think it starts with the manager. And I think that's where a lot of reps unfortunately are failed. Because if you don't have a leader that will supply you with the tools of how to learn that, then, you know, not every person is smart enough to go and find the answer themselves, unfortunately, like, there's some people that are very good self starters, but not everyone is, and people do need to be shown and how to do it.

And I think, for me, I've got my dashboard, I've got every report on there, they see all the activity, they see the core conversions, they see how the most average answers, like most like disposition, sorry, that they keep coming up. They see where everyone's at the target, they don't hide that, everyone knows. They see their conversion rate from meeting booked to qualified, qualified to close one. They've got all of that on the dashboard ready to go. Like, I just, it's provided for them, they don't need to look at it. And then you get tools that allow for easy things. So we use Nooks for our power dialing and our parallel dialing. And within there, you can literally go and you can search, like, what's the most common objection that I'm getting at the moment.

And it tells them and then they can go and they can look into it. And I think that if you teach a rep to make data led decisions from the offset, then it's very easy for them to like, become ingrained in that approach. Like, if they know, okay, like, I need to come to Lauren being like, yeah, like, I'm not getting enough pickups. Like, then I, then I show me that, prove it to me, give the data. Because one thing I also say about BDRs is they're very good at having biased decisions. They, they love to come to a conclusion. And they love to make decisions based on what they think and feel as well. For example, like the amount of reps that I'll be like, okay, what are your top 10 accounts? They'll be like, oh, it's this one, this one.

Why did you pick them? Oh, well, like that one's a really cool company. Okay, but will they buy us? Like, look at all of our customers, every single one. Do we have any customers that look like them? No. Okay, so what makes you think you're going to be the one to completely change the trajectory of this business and get that booked in? You might do. But do you think he's going to close one? Like, do you think you're giving an opportunity to your AE? Or are you just booking a meeting? Because they're, that's, that's two different things as well. And I think you have, they don't, they don't know what they don't know. And I think it's telling them things like that. Like, build your top 10 based on what we know is a close one opportunity in our business.

That's how you should build your top 10. Not just because you like the brand or it's a cool name or it's big, because that doesn't mean that your AE is going to be able to close it. Like, that's just, that's just bias. And BDRs love that. So I think start, start from there. Start as a leader. And if you don't have a manager, because not everyone does, or they're managed by an AE, so like an AE is not actually a manager. They don't actually know what they're talking about. Um, go and go and like, find this, go and ask for it. Hey, how can I get my conversions? I don't know how to build the report. Hey, like, what do I do to like, go and ask questions, be that person, be annoying. Because honestly, all that's doing is that point of managing up.

It's showing the people up here that you care. So even if they're not actually giving you the answer because they're too busy, they're going to go, Oh, that was so interesting. Like Lauren actually asked me for that. Like, that's, that's really, that's really cool that she did that. She's obviously thinking quite long-term here. So I think start from there and then the culture kind of becomes quite embedded. Um, at least that's what I've tried to do. Let's still wrap the day, obviously. Yeah, of course. So what's working right now? What do you see work right now? I mean, obviously email is, is, you know, people saying it's a dumpster fire. I say, well, not really, because I still like really personalized, relevant and timely stuff still stands out to me.

Um, you know, the garbage doesn't. So what are you finding is, is kind of right now? Uh, what, where are you seeing results? Yeah. It's in that hyper personalized quality over quantity when it comes to email for sure. Um, the, the emails that my reps are sending, there's not many, they're not bashing out 500 plus emails a week. They're probably sending 250, 300, because the emails are personalized. They've gone in and they are writing something that actually will be relevant to the person that they're reaching out to. We do a lot of persona based messaging. So, okay, they're in for us. One of our main job targets is econ. So they'll be like, okay, like, what does an econ person care about? Like, what do they actually give a shit about?

Okay. They care about customer conversion. They care about the experience on the website. Okay. So when you're writing your message, it needs to be in the point of view of what the econ person is going to care about, not about what we like in our products. It's classic old school sales. That's not gone anywhere. Tell me the pain that they're probably experiencing. Talk about what other people are doing and then say, by the way, we actually help you fix this. Want to chat? Is this something that's on your radar? Something you're exploring this year, you know, open-ended call to action. Don't start whacking your meeting LinkedIn straight away. No one cares. Like, no one wants to meet with you and they don't even know who you are yet.

Like, it's that consultative, like, storytelling messaging. And I think what's so funny now is you know when something's AI. Everyone knows it now. I think this time last year, people still didn't quite cotton on to what AI email was. I think you can still get away with it. You can tell AI. You can tell it in a LinkedIn post and the comments in an email. You can tell if your mates text you back and say, you're like, why are you using ChatGPT for that? Exactly. Come on. It's so obvious. Like, nothing makes me like cruel more when a rep sends me an email. Hey, can I get some feedback on this? And I read it and I'm like, why are you asking me to give ChatGPT feedback? I don't want to give ChatGPT feedback.

I want to give you feedback. Stop. Like, I think AI is fantastic for writing a sequence, putting a lot of depth into it, you know, going in a little bit too much detail, probably over sharing, you know, more than 150 words, et cetera. And then going, please take what I've put and make it more concise. Then it's your tone, your language, the way you speak, but concise, shorter, more punchier. Perfect. That is what AI is fantastic for. I hate it when people go in and they get it to write the entire sequence, and they just add the odd bit in there. No, it doesn't work anymore. That's the opposite of what I see working. And then the phone. The phone doesn't go out of fashion. I have noticed a drop in connect rates.

In fact, I was literally looking at this from Q1. So our connect rate from Q1 was 8%, which had gone down from, I think it was 12% in Q4. So we had a drop off, but our meeting rate went up by 2%. So we've actually gone up every quarter on meeting rate whilst our connect rates been dropping. So what that's telling me is that, okay, we're not having as many conversations, but when we do, they're good conversations. So, okay, get them on the phone. You've got a good chance of converting that now. That's really great. So now it's just getting them on the phone. That I think is the problem with the time. There's just pinging left, right and center. I get average five cold calls a day. I'm in back to back meetings all the time.

I'm a manager. So I don't not answer because I don't want to talk to you because I very proactively say that I will answer a cold call if I can. But I just can't answer half the time. Most of the time you're calling me in the middle of my work day. I'm in a meeting. Why are you not calling me in my lunch break? I don't get any cold calls between 12 to one. What's that about? That's probably like the guaranteed time of me being able to pick up and no one calls me because they're on lunch. Like the reps that are going to book a meeting are going to cold call them. And I think on the phone point, what's not working is those generic cold call openers. Hey, have you got 30 seconds? That's not working as much anymore.

The one I hate so much as a sales leader is, Hey, um, can I take 30 seconds? I know that you probably hate cold calls. Yeah. Well, this is a manager who is proactive on LinkedIn, talking about cold calling and you think I'm going to hate cold calls. And I'm quite mean. I do literally say, I go, did you do any research on me at all? No. And they're like, Oh yeah. Yeah. And I like, well, I think if you had, you'd have known that the one thing I do not hate is cold calls. So I think you need to maybe like look a little bit deeper into your prospect before you cold call them. Sorry, sorry. But yeah, I think what openers, what openers are working for you now? Um, going in with a bit of research at the start.

So it'd be like, but how do you, how do you like literally, cause I break it down by the intro, the reason for your call, the call, like, so that intro, that five seconds, hello, do you go straight into, Hey, this is John Barrows, or JB sales. And I'm calling because I saw something on your website. Or do you do the pattern interrupt or do you kind of permission based sell? Like what's, what's the flow of that first? Hello. Yeah. I actually let them all do a little bit differently because I think it's really important for the rep to do what feels comfortable because that's what makes the start of a cold call better. Um, but a lot of my reps do, Hey, how are you? Okay. Which most people hate.

Love it. Whenever I say that they're like, Oh, why would you do that? But it works for them. Again, I always say, if it works for you, do it. Right. I, you know, and it's also regional. And this is where like intros as I, as I train intros and cold calling, I'm like, please take this from a U S perspective here. Cause this is what works and doesn't. Cause I, you know, I, I sold the vast majority of my career. I sold into Boston and New York, the Northeast of the United States. And when I used to say, Hey, how you doing today? If I, if I didn't get hung up on, I'd be like, fine, you know, fine. What? And it'd be like, I'm sorry, didn't bother you. I'm sorry. Right. Cause cause nobody, and I didn't actually, my problem with, Hey, how you doing today was I realized I didn't give a shit because I wouldn't even, sometimes I wouldn't even wait for the response.

I'd be like, Hey, how you doing today? I was wondering if you could point me in the right, you know, something like that. So it was like, it was actually disingenuous for me, but, but different regions, different, you know, works in different areas. Yeah. Whereas I think us Brits, we just, we're always like, yeah, I'm good. Thank you. How are you? And you hear the tone, the tone will be like, who are you? But cause that's just so British. But what we then always do is go into that sort of like value prop bit. So it'd be like, look, the reason I gave, I've given you a call today, appreciate it's out of the blue, was that I noticed that on your website, you're just curious, like how come you guys are doing that today?

Like what, what's the reason? So like always ending them with the question and what I've noticed doesn't really work. And some of my reps still do it. And I'm really trying to stamp it out is like, Hey, it's Lauren calling from swap commerce. How are you? Yeah. Sorry. Calling from where? Every time, every time, because they don't know who we are. And then you go swap commerce. And obviously they're like, swap. They're like, what, what are you talking about? It's no sense to them because they're like, why are you saying swap? Why are you swapping? I don't get it. And it happens every time. And then they spend the first 20 seconds of the cold call being like, yeah, it's swap. No, stop, stop doing that.

You're giving me PTSD. Cause I, that's when I was making 400 Koga, like back in the day, like the company was thrive networks, T H R I V E. So I'd be like, hi, this is John Barrow's with thrive networks. How are you doing today? They'd be like, drive, thrive. I'd be like, no, thrive. T H R I V. And to your point, like now I'm just like, Oh yeah. And then it's ruined it. You've lost them because then they're just like, Oh great. It's the cold call. The wall of resistance is straight up. They definitely don't want to talk to you anymore. Cause they're like brilliant. And others say, like, it doesn't work. Like go, go straight in. I don't care where you're calling from. They care why you're calling.

I think it only works if you have got a household name that you're calling from. If you're calling from Salesforce, everyone knows Salesforce. That's a different situation. Like if you're working for a big player, most of us aren't, or we feel like we're big players, but we're still getting there. You know, I think, yeah, that's, so that's also something that's not working that I'm trying to even early days at Salesforce, by the way, when Salesforce, wasn't really a household name. When I was training them, they would call and say, hi, this is John from Salesforce. And people literally say, um, I already have a sales force. Don't I, what, like, what is who are like? And so even then, but now obviously household name, I think a lot of people, so that's why I don't mind this, this one where it's like, Hey, this is John Barrows from JB sales.

Are you familiar with us? That one, because you get an answer either way. Right. You could be like, well, oh yeah. Oh, well you probably know me for the prospecting stuff. Do you know, I also do negotiation. Right. Or no, I have no idea. Well, real quick, the reason I'm calling is I noticed. Right. So that intro though is an interesting one for the team to, I always split test and try different ones for different people to figure out what works for you. And that's exactly it. I think that every, every rep sounds different and sounds natural. Like I've got someone who's from New Zealand and she does not understand British tone of voice. It's fantastic. Some will be like quite, they'll be in that like British, like, why are you talking to me?

And she's just like, and like, she keeps them on the phone and she always has a really good call. Because they're like, wow, this person keeps talking to me because she's just not clued in on the fact that they're being rude to her. I want to be listening to her cold calls. And I'm like, did you not realize that they wanted you to like get off the phone? And she's like, no. And I'm like, that is a superpower. And I love that view. That is fantastic. I call that the, you know, Finding Nemo, you know, that movie, right? Oh yeah. You know, Dory, right? Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming. I have some friends who like, don't let anything bother them. They just kind of keep going with the car.

And eventually they break the person down to the point where they're just like, fuck, I got to talk to this person because they're either just so clueless or so happy. Yeah. I think one thing that we do, sorry, that I think is so unique and I don't know, I haven't seen it much is LinkedIn social selling is true. Yeah. I was going to ask you about that. So, because in, and let's, let's talk about, because the, there's very little short-term benefit to personal brand building. And that's why so many people don't do it. And quite frankly, it takes a long fucking time to, to really, like, it takes a lot of two comments, three comments, four likes to get to a point where it's like, oh, I'm starting to see some traction here.

So how do you justify social selling to a SDR who is, is just trying to hit their number and thinking that, you know, if I post who gives a shit and, and also what do you coach them on what to post? Because most of them have this imposter syndrome. Like what, who, who am I to say anything? And you said something earlier about your management experience that I think that, that you were like, same thing. Who am I? I've never managed before, but people would have loved to hear the journey. So could you talk to me about why an SDR 22 doesn't know shit should be posting on LinkedIn and what that perspective is, and then what you think they should be posting. Yeah. So when I first joined the business, there was a few of them that were naturally posting on LinkedIn.

They like started doing it. They were doing some fun videos and I joined. And I think one of the things that attracted my VP to me was the fact that I had a personal brand. I think he liked that. He thought, great, I've got some people on the team that we've hired that are already a bit interested in that. They're going to get a manager that already does that. So that's, that's quite a nice synergy. So I joined. And the first thing I say to my VP is like, okay, like you want them to post more on LinkedIn. I want them to post more on LinkedIn. What do salespeople respond to? Money. We have to incentivize this. So they're incentivized. They get paid. We pay them. So the incentive is if you post 20 videos on LinkedIn in a quarter, you get an additional 2000 pounds and in US dollars, that's like 3,300.

Yeah. Top on your paycheck. That makes a difference. So my VP is in the UK, again, eight grand a year to post on LinkedIn, basically. Okay. So now what do you post? What do they post? Because it can't just be swap and look how awesome we are. And here's our new product release, which is what so many fall into, right? Like, oh, look at how great our company is. Nobody gives a shit about how great your company is. Such a great question. So the way that we do it is 14 of your posts have to be related to the company in some way. Okay. And that's, that's very broad. So that can be interviewing your colleagues about like, how's like, what's working for you right now? Like, what do you love right now?

We've seen the like jokey TikTok trends where it's been like, tell me who's like got the best fashion sense. Oh, John, go to John. John, who's got that. Right. Because it's about creating a moment. So it's the same as like, it is on normal social media. You want people to watch it and have a feeling about it. They're like, oh, this is fun. Like, this is cool. So things like that. Then when it comes to talking about the product, it's not about sitting down in front of the camera with your mic being like our latest product has this feature in this feature. You are literally doing an outbound email via video. So you're like, you know, I've been chatting to loads of people recently who really, you know, they've really experienced this problem and this problem.

Um, you know, one thing that we do at swap is we fix that. So they're talking about pain in all their videos. And then on top of that, it is things like, what have you learned this week past? Like, you know, what's like a learning you're having? Are you doing a marathon? We love a day in the life. Like our reps love a day in the life. Come to swap because not only is that good for personal brand, it's good for employee brand. It shows the vibe like, and it's so funny because they all get, they get the odd hate comment like, oh, it looks like you do nothing at work. And then I come in and I go, actually, as their manager, I can tell you they do loads of work. I'm like, go look at my LinkedIn if you want.

I do three videos a week, mate. So I think it's breaking it up into sections. And I think, you know, this is some of the posts as well. It's there's work content, there's development content, there's personal content. That's how I break up my sections of my content, like come up with ideas. So that's what I teach them. That's what they get taught. And then I let them have creative license with it, basically. And they just, they just go out and they do it. And I think I actually, I bring it up in the interview process. I go, oh, have you looked on LinkedIn by any chance? And you can either see the panic set in their eyes or you can see them go, oh yeah, yeah. Like you guys did other videos, right?

And I go, yes. What do you think of the videos? Oh yeah. Like I saw on your LinkedIn. I go, great. Did you go and look at any of the BDR's LinkedIn? And then again, I wait and I see if they say yes. And I go, okay, like anyone in particular that you really liked, I go, but I, you know, go catch me a little bit. Um, most of the people that I've hired have all gone in and they can name, they can go, yep. I saw this person's content, like saw this person's content. And I go, what did you think? What do you think about that? Like, how did it make you feel? Oh, like, I thought it's really fun. I thought it's really cool. Would you do it? And I'm like, be honest with me. Would you do it? Yep. And I can tell if they're genuine when they say yes or not, you get the vibe.

You're like, okay, like they're actually saying yes, or they're just saying it because they want the job. But I think that's something that if you want people to do personal branding, you want to post about it, you've got to, you've got to bring it into the culture and you're right. There's, it's long-term gain. You know, we didn't start seeing meetings fly in because of it in the first, I would say probably like six months, but last year, easily, like, I wish I could give an accurate percentage, but like, there is a good chunk of our ops that came because of personal, because of personal brand. People would say like, oh yeah, like I've seen like some of your colleagues, like on LinkedIn, that's like videos about your products.

We've had a really, really big, pretty good household brand message. One of the links, like one of the reps being like, Hey, I've been following your content for ages on LinkedIn. It sounds like, um, you can help us. Can we, can we have a meeting? And they're massive. They were massive. And we were like, oh my God, like, this is insane. All from posting a day in the life. Like, why is it relevant? Because it shows the humanity. It shows that you're not just salesperson. You're a real person that works this company. There's value behind what you're saying. People love working here. And I think that when you want to work with a solution, you want to know that the people like that solution too.

And I think that for every person that posts, you can tell they love our solution. Anyone that works here, like you can get that energy from it, which I think is, is so nice. So it's, that's fantastic. And that does go back to the caveat that I put on this, on this, of like you work for a kick-ass company that's got, sounds like it's got leadership aligned as well with that. It's not like an old school CMO who's like, no, you can't post that, you know, marketing is right. You've got to have a line. Yeah. It's so important. Yeah. I think you need buy-in, got to have buy-in for leadership. And I think that's, you know, if I was a rep right now, I'd be looking for that. I'd be looking for, okay, you as a manager, great, but how does executive leadership feel about posting on social?

Like, what's the CMO's, you know, perspective on this? It's so, because everyone's going on about AI, right? AI here, like AI is taking over, like, yeah, cool. Bye. It's not going anywhere. Great. No one cares. But who's becoming our new leaders? Yeah. Millennials and Gen Z. Where have they come from? The internet. The internet is important to them. They love it. They love being able to have fun with it. They love creating city videos. Like, it means something to them. So if you alienate that from them in their work environment, that's not going to go down well. I think we're going to, and I think this whole attitude about like, Gen Z are lazy. Gen Z don't care. Well, I've got a whole team of Gen Z.

And I can tell you, it's not, it's the polar opposite. My Gen Z's, they care. They want to make money. They want to be good. They want to succeed, but they want to do it in a fun way. They want to have fun at work. They want to be creative. They want to feel like they can learn and grow and make mistakes. And that's in all industries. I don't think that's just because we're in tech where like, there is a bit more like fluidity in it. I think that you're probably having the same thing in very old school, traditional industries like banking. Think about the amount of people now that go on social media and do videos and like what investing actually is, how to actually manage your money. Like people want to learn this stuff and they care.

So if you are a leader and you're not thinking about how you can embrace social media content into your, you know, younger workforces day to day, like you're missing a trick because that's going to make them feel really valued for sure. And I think that's the, that's to me as a good leader versus not like somebody who recognizes that the way that worked for them is not necessarily the way it's going to work for you. Like, look, I'm 50, right? It, when I got into, when I got into sales, it was, give me my territory, give me my quota and please get the fuck out of my way. I don't need the, I don't need the fun shit. I don't need the foosball stuff. I don't need to be feel like I'm getting invested in.

I just need to go and make money. And I think there's so many kind of senior leadership now that still have that old school mentality of this is, oh, you know, you have to do these things. It's like, dude, just level up right now. Like, just understand that this is a totally new world. And if you can't adapt to these kids coming up and meet them where they are, you're never going to evolve. As an organization, you're probably going to fail more often than not. So it sounds like you've aligned, you've got a pretty cool crew that is aligned from the top down and a good product and a good mentality across the board. So Lauren, this has been great talking to you. I really appreciate it. And yeah, I've loved it.

Thank you so much for having me. Where can people learn more about the team, about you? I mean, obviously you're all on social, you know, social all over the place, but if people were listening, get on LinkedIn, you'll find me. So yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, Lauren Reeves. I also have a little podcast as well, where I chat about my experience with another BDR manager. I love it. It's called, it's called, it can't take your call right now, right? Yeah. Can't take your call right now. Yeah. Which I think it was his sister that came up with that. Well, I couldn't think of a name and his sister was like, anyway, so there's that. I've got a TikTok with hardly any followers, which is just Lauren Reeves again.

So if you want to add me on there, crack on, that'd be lovely. So yeah, that's where you'll find me, but definitely LinkedIn. That's where I'm definitely most proactive. Perfect. Well, Lauren, thank you again for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And everybody, hopefully you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And like I said on all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today because no matter how bad your day's going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much and I will see you on the other side.