When “Business as Usual” Isn’t Normal Anymore with Devin Reed

Hey, real quick before we get into the conversation. Look, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while now, you know I don't have sponsors. And it's mainly because I know most people, including myself, skip right through them and I just don't want to annoy my audience with 10 minutes of sponsor spots every single week. However, it also means I don't get paid to do this. So the way I help fund my ability to provide free content and really interesting conversations like the one you're about to hear is through my sales training and coaching services. So if you've gotten value out of some of these conversations on this podcast and you're looking to level up your sales game, do me a favor and go to jbarrows.com and check out the training tab on the top nav bar.

I have training for teens or individuals and you can even get an individual training module focused on a specific skill that you're looking to address like objection handling, negotiations and much more. If you're an individual, you can also use discount code podcast for 20% off the membership. Look, sales is evolving faster than ever right now, especially with AI. And we all need to level up or risk becoming irrelevant. Whether you're an executive looking to train your entire team or you're an individual rep looking to level up, I promise I can help you get to where you want to go in 2026. Send me an email to schedule a call or sign up to my membership today and let's make it happen together.

Now let's get on with the show. All that I did was solidify my identity is I refuse to be someone who did nothing. And my intention there is to inspire someone or to just not make them scared like they can do it too. Like you can go have this conversation in your friend group. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays. We talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And today's was a little bit different. This one's with Devin Reed. He's been on the podcast before. A good friend of mine. We've grown pretty close over the years. Definitely share a lot of the same values.

And he had posted something, oh, I don't know, about a week or so ago on his newsletter. And then he posted it on LinkedIn about not being quiet anymore, about how fucked up things are right now in our world and how everybody's kind of acting, especially on LinkedIn, acting like things are normal when they are most obviously not. And I've been struggling with what to say, how to say it, because I don't want to, I don't want to get into a divisive conversation. I don't want to get, you know, yelling at people because that never changes anybody's mind. So I felt like this was a better way of expressing where I am emotionally with what's going on in this world right now and having a conversation out loud with Devin, who I think is going through the same thing.

And so this conversation was really about his journey of getting off the sidelines and doing what he can, in his opinion, to make change and me trying to figure out my voice right now and how to leverage the platform and how to leverage, you know, what I've been privileged with without causing more divisiveness. And so if you've been kind of feeling odd about obviously what's going on right now and not knowing what to do or say, hopefully this conversation gives you a little bit of courage to stand up and try to make a difference, even if it's the smallest little thing to help people out. So hopefully you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Devin Reed, welcome back to the Make It Happen Monday podcast.

My friend, how in the world are you? I'm good. And I think of all the podcasts I've been on, I've been on a couple twice. I think this is my, maybe my third time actually on the show. I think it's your third time at least, yeah. Every time I get invited back, I'm like, I must be doing something right with JB. He's bringing me back every once in a while. And it's never an expected reason. You know, it's not like we see each other and you're like, let's get back on the pod. I, you know, we just happened to reconnect. So I'm good, man. I'm grateful to be back. And this one, this one's a different one, right? Because we were talking right before we pushed, we went recording on this one. And you had posted something a few weeks back that really kind of hit me because, uh, I've been thinking the same stuff and not really knowing how to approach it or articulate it.

And I think that baby step that you took to kind of start saying things out loud, give me a little bit of confidence to say, okay, I think I got to come off the sidelines here a little bit. And, um, and like I said, I'm not a hundred percent sure where this conversation is going to go, but like, like I always tell my audience, I use this as a bit of an open therapy session sometimes. And, uh, I think since you and I, I think have very similar values and type of thing, I wanted to see if we could have this conversation out loud. So I appreciate you coming on board with this. I love it. Absolutely. I mean, first thing was a post and a newsletter and then, uh, now a podcast. So I think, you know, babies, like people like baby steps, baby steps, like it does happen.

If you just take the little one, the next one comes, the next one comes. And so, you know, to frame it, and I think people probably already get a sense of what we're talking about here is just how uncomfortable, um, both of us are, the whole world is right now. The United States is right now with what's going on. And what I don't want to make this is a political conversation. I don't want this to be an us about them and, you know, fuck this side or whatever it is. I mean, I think most people know where you and I stand as far as politically or which way we lean. But I think that the challenge that I'm having right now, it's, it's not, it's not right versus left. It's, it's ideologies. It's, it's the, it's values.

It's it. And they seem so far off right now that everybody's angry in the social worlds, splitting us apart worse than ever. But there's a, there's a point of like, you know, you can either join the quote unquote fight, but what are you fighting at this point? And how do you fight it and what do you say? And, and do you risk, you know, alienating a massive part of your population who, for somebody who, who like you and I have pretty large platforms, you know, I know you have, and I have kind of stayed away from the political side of the house or mentioning anything like that. And I don't know if it's the Michael Jordan quote of, you know, Republicans buy shoes too. So fuck it. Right. But I've always just been like, look, I don't want that smoke.

I don't want that noise. I just want to stay focused on, on what I'm trying to add to the audience here. But there is a certain point where, you know, it has gotten to the point where I just feel so uncomfortable with what's going on that I feel like I, I, I need to do or say something that, that to your point, like other people are feeling it. You know, you had mentioned before coming on that, uh, you and I say the thing in the room that most people are thinking, but are, are afraid to say, and you've said it. And so I wanted to bring you on here to have this conversation. So could you kind of walk me through kind of what got you to that original post that you put out? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man.

So, uh, for just quick context, I live in San Diego, California. It's important geographically because, uh, we are, my house is, so I'm in North County. So I'm like 20 miles from the border, but like San Diego downtown is like nine, 10 miles. I don't know. I just moved here a couple of years ago. So forgive my fact checking, but we live close to the border. And, uh, my wife is Indian and, uh, you know, she, uh, she has been confused, uh, by many people for many, uh, different, uh, ethnicities, including Mexican people thinking she's Mexican. So, you know, as you just look around the country and the type of people that ice is targeting and the mistakes that are happening, right. It's not just one group of people that is specifically being targeted is I would say I'm air quoting a one group of people, but really it's very broad with a lot of mishandling.

I'm leaving, you know, we can, I'll let people fill in the blanks. And I'm, again, I'm not taking sides with any, any group. Um, and so basically I'm just giving that context. So, um, a couple of weeks ago, I'm, I'm doing my weekly social media coaching. I had a social media coach and he's like, I have to ask you a, you know, the uncomfortable question. And he's like, I noticed you haven't been active on LinkedIn. And I was like, also a big build by the way, for like the LinkedIn question, like, you know, kind of had me a little more spooked there on like something important. Um, but he's like, yeah, you haven't been active on LinkedIn lately. And, uh, you know, your growth is slow and really what he's doing is holding me accountable to the stuff we say on other calls.

I'm like, I want to get going and yada, yada, grow fast. And, um, you know, in the moment, uh, you know, I, I lied to him, JB, I lied. And I was like, oh, I've been, you know, I've been focused on the business. I've been making money and, uh, you know, business good. And so I've been focusing on other stuff and I'll get back online. I'll get back online soon. A couple hours later, uh, went to go get ice cream with my girls and, uh, you know, Friday after school, Friday ritual. And I had realized like, I didn't just lie to Colin, my coach. I lied to myself in that moment. And it, that doesn't sit well with me. And that's something we share is like our action, when our actions and our identity are mismatched, that, that brings a lot of tension internally.

Um, and so I was like, oh, okay, well, why did I, why did I lie? Why did I not feel comfortable saying the real deal? And I realized like, I just wasn't comfortable and I wasn't confident. And I was candidly scared of what would happen if I did say what was really on my mind. And so I'm sitting there with my two girls, you know, they're, they're, they're by racial, they pass as white. So you probably wouldn't know it. Uh, my wife is, you know, very, very, very Indian. I say like, he's first gen, not probably not going to confuse. And I'm like, man, I do everything in my life to protect these people and to make sure we can afford ice cream on Fridays. But I won't post on LinkedIn. Like I won't say the thing to help.

Like, I don't know. That doesn't sit right with me. And so, uh, right then and there while they're, you know, chomping on gummy bears or whatever they put in their ice cream. I'm just like, I typed it on my phone and I typed up, it was like three sentences, something super quick. And it started with, uh, what someone else had actually asked me earlier that week, which was like, you know, Hey bro, you good. And I was like, nah, bro, I'm not good. And that was the hook right there. And, and then I, you know, I showed it to my wife and she's like, just post it. Like, you got to say what you got to say. And so I posted it and, um, kind of just went back to my, you know, went back to my weekend. I didn't really check it till later.

It started to do well on a Friday night, but who knows, woke up the next morning, had taken off overnight. So I'm like, okay, I'm getting ready to write my newsletter. It were send it rather. Cause I'd already written it. And it was about strategic goals for the year that I, you know, very timely. So I had just had just set that same feeling like, Oh, you lying again. You lying. That's the voice. Like that tone is the voice in my head by you lying right now, bro. Come on. Like when you're talking to your best friend, like, come on, you're going to do that. And so I went for like a walk and I was like, all right, why do I feel this way? And what would I say instead? Like, what would be the non lie?

I wrote, I said that on my phone, you know, shaped it real quick, wrote it up and, and, and shipped it. Uh, went back to my weekend as I tend to do came back. I had more responses to that newsletter than any newsletter I'd written in three years, four years. And that post, uh, the Friday post also had gone like, you know, viral for LinkedIn. And then I had taken the newsletter posted like a version of that on LinkedIn as well. So it's like a followup, right? So like Friday was like, I'm scared. Saturday is like, here's why kind of more context. And my DMS blew up like with, you know, people just thanking me for saying it. And a lot of comments, I know only one, only one donkey of all the, of all the stuff, you know, people were saying, which is an amazing ratio that I was talking about.

Yeah. And so like that, I know it's a long story and kind of a lot of monologue, but like that was where I was at. And so, um, it started with me lying to myself and then finally saying one thing and saying another thing and saying another thing. And then you reached out and was like, Hey, you want to talk about on a podcast? I'm like, this is my journey right here. I don't know what's happening after me and JB talk. I'm not planning. I'm not an activist. My identity has not changed in that way. All that I did was solidify my identity is I refuse to be someone who did nothing, but right. And it's not going to be when you die. People like, Oh, what on your tombstone? What are they going to say?

Bro, that's, I hope that's 50 years from now. What are they going to say in five years from now, 10 years from now when we're all at a big, you know, family dinner group setting. And we're looking back on this time. I'm not going to be the guy that was like, I didn't do shit. I just made money and I chilled like, and there's no, not if that's you. And that's where you're at now. Maybe in a year, this will make sense. Maybe you hate me now, but like personally for my identity, there's no way that I'm gonna have a biracial family and just sit on the sidelines. Yeah. And I think that's the challenge. You, you put a lens in of like, what were you, what did you look at? Like, are you scared or what, what were the things that you were saying of why you didn't post?

Yeah. So I was like, you know, why would, like you were saying like, why, you know, if we're the first one to say it, why is someone else, why is this other person hasn't said anything yet? Um, and it's either cause you're unaffected, right? Like this just does not affect me. So I'm not saying like, I don't even notice maybe, or why would I talk about that? I'm not, you know, and then it's like, or you are affected, but you are uncomfortable. You're scared. You don't know what to say. Now, and something, there's a blend there, but there's kind of, you can might, if I said that just now, you might've just self-identified one of those things. And I think that's kind of where you have to, you know, you're probably falling somewhere in there.

Um, and I think you probably have to, you know, if you're unaffected, it's very low likelihood. You're going to take a high risk on a politicized racial, uh, topic in front of a group, uh, in front of your, uh, work setting, which is basically LinkedIn, right? Like I get that. I'm not asking anyone to like, go become an activist. And I'm not like, if someone came up, some people did after this, they're like, Oh, man, you'd be like an activist now. And I'm like, ah, I don't know. I don't know about that, but I do know I'm doing something and that's enough for me, you know? And like, and other people said the same thing. And like you, like, Hey, I've been thinking about it. Can we talk? What do you think about this?

And I'm like, you, all my advice has always been, if that feels true to you and you can handle the potential consequences, then that's what you should do. Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jbarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2. If you've already gone through my training before, you can also sign up for my newsletter on jbarrows.com where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there, some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do.

So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review or follow me on the newsletter, it would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. Yeah. And that, that to me is like, I, my thing is, is like, I've, I've always wanted to spread positivity, right? I've always wanted to spread value and knowledge and lift people up. And my challenge has been, you know, as a, as who I am in like a white male. I mean, I got, I literally have a tattooed on my arm. It says, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Like that is like, I, I understand the privilege that I have. So theoretically, if I shut off the news, I wouldn't be affected at all.

You know what I mean? My wife's white, my daughter's white, um, you know, and we, and we well off, I started with good parents and all that fun stuff. I mean, the amount of privilege that I have is, is off the charts. I recognize it too, but the challenge has always been for me, like, how do I, how do I stay positive and add to like moving forward without getting so fucking pissed off about what's happening and what I see that crosses every single fiber of my being? Cause I'm a fuck you. I mean, you know, man, like, yeah, I'm like a fuck you. Like when I, when I see something wrong, I'm usually like eat a fat one, you know, let's, I'm going to fucking tackle this head on. But this one, I like this, the divisiveness of the conversation, like you almost even can't get past the, the initial reaction to something because your initial reaction is leads to somebody else's initial reaction.

And then all of a sudden it escalates to this, this yelling and screaming. And that just detracts that like detracts our audiences, right? So if we got into yelling fests with other people on social or posting like stuff about this, and it just turned into this, like, well, you're, you know, cause it's inevitably going to, in a lot of ways, if you take that approach, well then even the followers that like you are going to kind of start, stop engaging cause they just don't want part of that smoke. And so I think that's the part where I'm, I'm trying to articulate a way to stay focused on values without labels and, and, but the values are so different right now, seemingly that, that I don't know how to reconcile that.

I don't know how to get through. Cause I always said, if you, if you and I have shared values, right, then we could probably, you know, we'll argue the debate, whatever, but we'll ultimately come to a, a, a, I think a mutual decision, right? It's like, Hey, we might agree to disagree, whatever, but it'll be cordial. But if you and I have different core values, right? Fundamentally, then we're just going to argue with each other. And I, I've had such a hard time connecting with people that don't share my values that that's why I think I have been, I don't want to say I've been sitting on the sideline. I, cause I've been doing a lot on the backend, like personally to, you know, do stuff that isn't, but isn't my platform.

Right. And that's the part where you start hearing all these people. Like if you're on social and you have a platform, you need to use it to speak out against all this shit that's happening right now. And, and I feel that, but I also feel like if I did that, it would drastically change the vibe that I'm trying to put out there. And I actually think might potentially even do more harm than good. Like, where are you on that, that, that line of doing more harm with good by, by facilitating the conversation? It's a great, it's a great point. I think too, is when people think of, uh, doing something becomes activism, becomes protesting, becomes those get violent. Like that's what we're seeing on social media and the news a lot.

So I think there's this, like, you know, we, we, that's like almost as like snapchat. Snap recall of like, this is that what is like, why does that have to be the lane? I've told my wife multiple times. There's a great chance. I never go to a physical protest because I'm the sole breadwinner. There's I'm the male in the family. Like if I, God forbid something happens to me is me being at that protest really the best way to use Devin Reed and this quote unquote fight, or there are other things that I can do. And the thing you said too, is like, you know, the, the pressure, I don't, I don't buy for a second that anyone can tell you how to protest or how to use your voice or how to use your resources.

I don't believe in that. Would I have liked Michael Jordan to say some things at certain times? Of course. Did I buy Jordan's anyway? Show did. Show did. Now you could argue, oh, you like him a little less. You like him. Who, like who cares? I bet Michael Jordan doesn't care. He made his decision. He's good with it. It, it, it, it aligned with his identity at the time. Right. So I think it's also like people maybe are sometimes desperate or they don't have that platform. So they're just like, well, you're better off than me and I'm doing more than you and you should be doing the thing that I can see. But did they ask you first? Hey, Hey JB, man, I saw, man, I've been following you for four years and I haven't seen you say anything.

Just curious where you at with all this. And then you follow up with, well, I've been doing this in real life and this in real life and that in real life. You just haven't seen it. That's a different conversation. Right. And that is a conversation, not a judgment and a projection. Exactly. It's actually funny you bring that up because I forget what I had posted something. It was a while back. I had posted something about some, some cause I believed in and a right, you know, versus wrong scenario, at least from my perspective. And somebody hit me in my DMS of like, John, you know, you know, you talk about all this other stuff, but you haven't said anything about Ukraine and I, you have to do a post on Ukraine.

And I was like, whoa, dude, first of all, you don't know me. So you have no fucking idea what I've done for Ukraine or how I've donated or the things that I've, I've supported for Ukraine. And so don't bring that to me in any way, shape or form, because now you just piss me off saying, fuck you. And you're, you know what I mean? Now you actually make me less likely to support Ukraine. If you're yelling at me about not supporting Ukraine, when, when you have no idea what I've done so far. And he came back and he was super apologetic, you know, and I, I was, I was like, look, I appreciate it. And I got, I respect everything that's happening over there. And I, and I really, I can't empathize cause I, I don't know, but man, I can sympathize, but let me share with you.

Like, don't come at me like that. Cause I've done a whole shitload of things here that you've never seen. And I think that's the scrutiny that we get, right. Is for people who are paying attention. It's like, wait a minute, you're not saying anything, but also I would hope the benefit of the doubt that you and I both get for, for doing and kind of following our values over the years and sharing them, maybe not as directly, but indirectly with how we care about people, you know, pay it forward, those types of things. And I think that's probably why you only got one or two trolls in there, you know, commenting shit. And I think that's the same with me. Like I rarely get people jumping on and talking shit because I think I've lived my life out loud and authentically.

And people realize like, okay, you want to pick this fight, man. I got nothing to hide. It's just, where are we going to take this conversation? And is it going to be constructive versus just you spewing your hate or, or opinion about, you know, lack of my support? Well, and that's why you're, you, uh, to your question of like, kind of how are you handling like the expectation or the pressure is like, I do, uh, you know, I'm a, I love behavioral psychology. I love understanding what makes people think differently and, and, and change their behavior. And I've learned, uh, at a very young age, you know, shame and guilt are terrible ways to motivate somebody. And then you'll be like, well, there's, I've experienced or there's data that shows it works really, really well the first time.

Cause it's just fear. But when you leave, when fear leaves the room, does that person's behavior change? No, they go right back. And if anything, to your point, they're going to go the other direction. Cause you're going to avoid shame and avoid guilt and avoid fear. So when you're saying like, well, how do I handle it? Like, yeah, I get mad too. I watch things and I'm like, God, I get fired. I get, I get mad. I do. But taking that anger in moving, let's just say to like social media or any, any thing I'm going to say is like, that's not going to be a resonant with people. No one wants the angry guy. No one wants to be yelled at. Um, and it's not going to motivate any actual change. So the approach I've taken to this is like my hands, my hands are like, I don't, I'm not that guy.

I'm not an activist. I'm not pretending to have any answers, but I will share with you what I'm thinking and feeling right now. And if you identify with that, great. Let's, you know, you'll probably enjoy what's next. And if you don't, it's hopefully it's a respectful, like tip of the hat and I'm going to keep going on. So my thing has just been like, all right, if I'm, what am I really trying to do? What am I trying to do? I'm not trying to change the world. I'm not, I'm not, I don't wake up everybody trying to change the world. I don't do that. That's not me. I'm not that visionary perhaps, right? Maybe not ambitious enough, but I think it's really, really weird. We're acting like it's business as usual.

I agree. That's why, that's why I'm so uncomfortable right now. Cause it is so fucked up. I mean, forget about left, right, or any of these, this, this, this touches everything. Like now that we know like the Epstein file shit that our world is run by fucking cannibals and pedophiles and all sorts of fucking like real shit that, like we all kind of ha ha ha before, but now we're seeing like in writing, this shit is happening. Like I cannot wrap, I can wrap my head around. Unfortunately, I can wrap my head around racism. You know what I mean? I can wrap my head around, you know, right versus left. I can wrap my head around like a lot, but I can not my friend wrap my head around the depravity, the depravity, how bad it actually is right now.

And to your point, walking around like, yeah, okay, it is what it is. It's like, it's like when alien, remember like a few, like about a year ago or something like that. They testified to Congress and yeah, aliens, like people like in the government sat in front of Congress and was like, yeah, a hundred percent. They're aliens. I've seen them. They're non-life or, you know, non-human and we have their ships and everybody was like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, wait a minute. I do remember that. Back like 30 years ago, you, somebody said that the whole fucking world would have exploded that we have aliens. Now it's, things are so fucked up that we know for a fact that there are aliens and people are like, eh, yeah, we've been desensitized like crazy, crazy desensitized, desensitized.

Totally. The other thing too, though, is to your point of like, I can, I can fathom, like, you know, understand fathom like racism, but like you, you have experienced it first or secondhand. You've seen it, seen it. I have too. So it's not shocking. The other things you mentioned from the Epstein files are, are atrocities that you would only, you would feel even weird thinking about. You'd feel uncomfortable talking about, like, of course, no one would do that because it's so out of the realm of possibility. So it's easier and again, safer, right? Like where do our brains go? We want to be safe and we want to be like nurtured, right? So like our brains isn't going to like hang out there, right?

We don't want to. So it makes sense. Unfortunately, you know, I don't know. Fortunately, unfortunately, it makes, it makes a lot of sense. And so kind of going back to like, well, what, what's going to resonate, like yelling at how crazy Epstein files are is not really going to change anything. If anything, that might be what was the desired outcome of releasing the amount of files that they did. Was it, you know, call it a distraction or whatever. There's something interesting called the, uh, I saw this gal, I think she was a lawyer. I say think cause it was on Instagram. You never know what anyone is on Instagram. Uh, which she called it, I think, uh, the reptilian theory. Have you heard? Oh yeah.

How there's reptiles living among us and they're just in different one, different one. Yeah. From what she was referencing. Uh, but also when I've heard as well, um, is like basically when there's like a court case with like some sort of, um, we'll just call it like maybe, uh, of, of, of, of crazy, like, um, kind of the word is like appropriately that could be published, like, uh, sexual or violent crime. That's like horrendous. Okay. They trickle out the information very intentionally, like the prosecutor, the defense, uh, defense and the, uh, judge, because the jury cannot handle all that information. Their brains, their reptilian brains will be triggered and you, and you do two things. You either like it, like what we're talking about, you get like angry and you're mad and make a good decision that way.

Or you do the other thing. A lot of people have done myself included after the Epstein files, which is you withdraw. You're like, I can't handle, ah, what cannibal, what? No, no, no, no. So when you're thinking of like, we're trying to get to the truth and understand what happened in the situation in the courtroom, you have to put out that information very distinctly and deliberately. So you don't overwhelm that person. It's not to protect the, uh, defendant. It's to protect the jury and their brain. So I'm like, man, cause that's the reptilian brain that that's the part of the reptilian theory. So I think of, I try to think of that in the same way. Now, when, once I heard that of like, oh, I'm getting all fired up or, or I'm, I'm, I'm withdrawing.

Was this intentional? Does someone want me to do one of these two things? And then if we tie it back to like doing something or saying something, getting angry is not really an answer. It's not really going to solve anything. I'm going to get anybody better. It's going to waste my energy at the very, the very least it's going to do is just burn all my energy and withdrawing and being like, well, my business is good and LinkedIn seems fine. So I guess I won't do anything. If you're, if you're on the, if you're, you know, if you, if you're trying to do negativity in the world and what we're talking about here, that's a great two responses that they would love for us to have. Get super pissed and do nothing or say and do nothing.

So we have to find that middle lane of like, what's right for you. There's no judgment and don't worry about labels. Like I'm not, bro. I don't, people call me like, well, no one's called me a Republican probably, but democratic. Yeah. You Democrat. I'm like, nah, I don't identify as that, you know, are you liberal? I'm like, I said, liberal once. And my buddy's like, what do you mean? And then we talked about what I feel. And he's like, oh, so you're libertarian. That's better. I'm like, bro, I don't care at all for what label you put me on. I just believe in like, you know, do, do what you want to do as long as it doesn't cause harm to other people or your community. And if you do something that causes harm, then you need to be accountable.

Whatever that makes me, you can call that whatever you want, but I don't feel like I fit into any of these bubbles right now because like, yeah, people, I don't know, man. It's just like, we're getting too much us versus them and angry at each other when it's like, just slow down. And what do you actually think? What do you actually believe? What do you want to go do? And that's the thing that challenged was the challenge with about the label factor, right? When you're labeled as something, it automatically puts you in that bucket. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's nuances here. So I like, I had this, uh, I won't bring up his name, but, um, cause I don't want to put him on blast here, but there's a colleague in our space, um, who's hardcore on the other side.

Right. Right. He's hardcore. Right. And, and there's still a level of respect there from a sales standpoint, because there's like, I like his approach and all this other stuff. Um, but you know, a few years back, we kind of got into it and I purposely went down to his place to hang out, uh, because I was like, can I, can I spend a, you know, a couple of days with just a, uh, like for instance, in this case, a Trump supporter. And can I like, can we come to a, cause we have a common, you know, common language here on some, on something that we both believe it. And, uh, you know, he started talking about some stuff and then he starts in on me. He's like, you, you know, all you liberals. And I go, can we please just take the word all out of that fucking equation and go like line by line with these things.

I go, let's, let's start with guns. Okay. I'm like, I got two shotguns and three handguns in my house. The amount of ammo that I have in my house is literally uncomfortable. I'm like, do you, and I'm a liberal mass hole, like full blue state, you name it. Do you think I want your fucking guns? Like, do you think I want to take away your guns? And he's like, well, no. I go, on the other hand, do you think somebody should maybe have to go get a license to use one instead of just taking a quick little stupid test? And maybe if they get a bigger gun, do you think they should have to take a bigger test with wait a little bit longer? He's like, well, yeah, that makes it. I go, okay. You know what I mean?

And it's like, so it's like, we're all like couple of shades off of whatever the topic is, but it's, but it's like, if you don't believe in, you know, abortion, then you think then basically you should kill all babies, right? Or like, you know, every mother should die. It's like, there's no, there's no nuance in the all you. No. And that's, and I think is, and it was funny because I took every topic that he started throwing at me and I was like, cool, let's, let's, let's rip it apart. And every single one of them, I was, I was literally able to come to like one to two layers away from each other on the topic. I go, so, and I think that's the problem is that we're all labeling everybody as, oh, you're this.

So therefore everything negative about what I think of that thing is you. And, and it's just so hard to identity politics is I think what's, what's killed this is because now people are identifying as, and that then it gets to the cult scenario. You know what I mean? Like if you, if your identity is tied up in whatever these things are, that's happening, you're the, I mean, I've read some psychology on this and everything else. Like you're not going to change until, and you brought this up, it directly impacts you. And I don't mean your wife, your daughter. I literally mean you personally. That is the only time I've seen somebody wake up from the cult scenario and, and either side, by the way, where it's just like, oh my God, that thing happened to me.

And now I'm, and it's so hard to, to, to, to like, how are you approaching this conversation? I know you, you know, you're starting to talk about it out loud, you know, on your newsletter and that type of thing. But are you actively engaging in conversations with people on, on who don't share your views these days to, to try to still gain some perspective? Or are you just avoiding that? Cause I'm going to be open and honest, man. I've been avoiding it for a long time now. And I feel like I need to come back to trying a little bit. I'm on the verge of reaching back out to some of the people that I haven't talked to in a while and been like, Hey, can we reconnect here? And are you still on this train?

And I don't know if I should, I don't know if that's going to help. I think this is like going like, what, what would the intention be? I think, I think, uh, there's something brought up. Uh, I think we, do you read, uh, read or listen to, in my case, uh, Matthew McConaughey's Greenlights. Greenlights is my favorite book. Awesome book. If you haven't, if listener. Listen to it. Do you think JV and Devin are good on the mic? Go listen to, listen to Matthew McConaughey. I probably listened to it three or four times. Um, and, uh, the reason I bring it up is there's just one point. I won't tell the whole, whole thing, but it was basically like, two guys are arguing, uh, about different things. I think in that case it was actually like, um, like a show women cover their heads, uh, they're somewhere in Africa.

And he was like, listens to both sides. And he was like, Oh, I agree with this guy. And both guys like snapped on him and was like, it's not about right or wrong. It's about, do you understand the other guy's point of view? And so I was like, that's really, really good. Because when you're trying to win a fight, you're trying to win an argument, you're trying to win a fight. So what good is that done? Like how often do you really change? Like who was really so persuasive? You're going to change someone's mind? Like get off your high horse. It's not going to happen. It's not, but you can plant the seed. But again, go back to how would you plant the seed for future change? Not with guilt, not with shame, not with anger.

It's just like true understanding. So to your question, like, yeah, there's definitely people in my family who I have chosen to distance myself from because I didn't think the energy dispersed would be worth it. Maybe the stakes were a little low. It was a little early and all this stuff. It'll phase, you know, it's a phase. It will pass. Not fast enough for me if it's going to. And so now you kind of said, like, how are you thinking about this stuff? Like there's people in my current community, in my family community, like close by who voted for Trump that I disagree with. And, you know, there was clashes at first. And then I was kind of the one like, hey, let's just not for a while so we can all play poker and hang out.

We play poker together a lot. So I'm like, we just like not ruin poker night, you know, because we just still have the, but you know what I mean? It's like, but I'm like, it cannot be, we cannot let this be an all or nothing thing with our family all the time, right? Like I'm sure there's certain, you know, there's flavors and types and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you got to distance yourself with Uncle Bob, do that. But like, for the most part, I don't think it has to be an all or nothing thing. So to your point, if a topic comes up or if I kind of bring one up, I am, I am intentionally isolating a topic because, you know, when you start to debate, you can win one thing. And what's the other person do?

They're like, well, that doesn't justify this other thing. And then, and it's like you, you zigzagging because you won your point, but I don't want that. So if it starts to happen, I'll just like, oh, you know, you're right, man. Like, you know, I'll just like diffuse and just like, I don't like kind of unsubscribe. I'm not really like trying to do too much there. Like, again, I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I'm also, I'm trying to go into it like, man, it's been a couple of years and this thing's growing. It's not going away. So there must be something intriguing and compelling to people who are buying into this philosophy. Maybe I can just, maybe I can understand it a little bit more today.

Even if I go into it knowing like, well, definitely not going to change my mind. Like I know what we're talking about today, or maybe I should even be more open-minded. Like maybe they'll adjust my mind. If they're not going to change it completely, can I understand better? You know what I mean? So I'm just, I'm doing that because I don't think, I think there's too, people's guard is too high. It's too emotional topics. And to your point, everyone's kind of, a lot of people are going into it. Like if you only saw it from my point of view, you would understand. It's like, no shit. That's the world. Like that's literally everyone all the time is like, if you, and it's also one of our weaknesses as human beings is like, we're actually very unable to do that.

So it's like, you both like, I can't really see it through your lens, but you're trying to, you know, it's like, but I'm going to convince you to see it through mine. So yeah, I, my, my thing has been, uh, Hey, can we just like going back to my thing is like, and I didn't, I didn't make it up. It's like, it's not business as usual. So can we just start there and just be like, it is weird, isn't it? Isn't it odd? And then people are just talking about how it's odd. We don't have to solve anything that day. Like, let's just acknowledge it's really weird. It's okay to be uncomfortable. It's okay to be scared. And it's okay to talk to each other about that. That's my win for the, that's my win for the next couple of months.

Probably is just having conversations because guess what? When you have that conversation and it's healthy and constructive, they're going to lead to their friend group and their family group. And they're going to have more healthy, constructive conversations. And it can spread to your point. Like we can, we can, that is literally spreading positivity. And yeah, so that's how I'm thinking about it. I like it, man. And it's interesting. Somebody, I forget who it was, but they talked about, you know, don't ask why, like, why do you believe in what you believe in? Cause then it gets very defensive and it's like, well, cause you know, but you ask him like, Hey, how'd you come to that conclusion?

Like how versus why? Like, walk me through how you got to believe this, right? And the steps or the proof points or whatever it might be. And then if you understand somebody's journey of how they got to where they were, then you can have a little bit more empathy for, for that. Because, you know, as an example, I think there are a lot of households on both sides that literally leave one news channel on 24 hours a day in the back. You know what I mean? And if you grew up 20 years ago and all those stations, you know, some leaned a little right, some leaned, you know, let's take Fox, MSN and CNN, right? CNN and MSN obviously leaned left early days and Fox leaned right, right? But then all of a sudden they both started doing this, like going hard one way and both ways.

And it's almost like the boiling frog analogy where the frog doesn't know it's boiling until it's too late. Cause, cause it gets, you know, further and further and further and further, but you're not recognizing it. Cause it's not this big leap to like, what the fuck was, you know, whoa, wait a minute. Like, so, so because it's the boiling frog syndrome, it's like, I can genuinely see if you only get your media from one stream and your social feed obviously only feeds you what is going to enrage you and support your minds unless you proactively go and look for other side. If that's the case and they've been defunding education and they've been defunding all these things, like it's a systemic thing that's happening.

So I still don't understand why you believe what you do because it's so far off from my values. But I, I do understand how you got to believing what you do, which makes me have more empathy for you. I just hope it's not pity because, cause that's where I'm like, I'm like, I feel bad for people that are uneducated and are, you know, fed the stream of consciousness that they don't even really understand because they haven't been exposed or privileged. Like I have to be exposed to different types of education, different points of view and all that other stuff. So I'm borderlining on the, and that's my problem is like, I don't want to come across as pity. I don't want to be like, Oh, you stupid fuck.

Like, that's why you believe in what you do. I want to genuinely say, look, I genuinely understand how you got here. I just wish you, I wish there was a way to open the lens here for both of us so we can see that. I think one, one way to think about it that's helped me is like, if you, if you got here, you can get out. So just because you adopted, um, an ideology, a mental framework, whatever, like you can unadopt it and you can adopt something different. So I think that's the hopeful side for me. Like I don't view anyone who disagrees with me any way, shape or form or agrees with me in any way, shape or form, like locked in. They're never going to change. I know there's some people that probably jumped to the top of your mind.

Like, well, those guys are never going to change, but you don't know. Like that person wasn't born that way. Thinking that stuff, someone somehow, and you know, over time they got exposed to it and now they believe what they believe. Um, it's funny you bring that up about the news thing. Cause I don't, I haven't watched it. I don't watch it. I don't, I didn't even have cable for a few years. Um, and so when I, this is super naive, but it'll lighten the mood a little bit. Um, I didn't know news stations were bias. Your boy just thought news was news. I thought it was negative. Like, you know, it used to be a bias. Okay. So that was maybe my exposure. Like as a kid, my mom and you know, they watched the, they watched the news.

I was like, I was, you know, it's the weather. It's someone got shot, whatever. It's just the news. It's news. It's shit that happened. Shit that happened. Uh, and then didn't watch the news for a long time. And then as all this political stuff is happening, people like, Oh, Fox news, you watch Fox news. And I'm like, Oh, I guess Fox news sucks. I don't know. They'd be like, well, CNN, you watch CNN. And I'm like, I watch none of this. So I flipped them for literally for educational purposes. I'm like, I'm going to watch 30 minutes of Fox news. And I went, Oh, I get it now. Not, not why not judge. Just, I see how you got there. If you're watching this, I'd get there to give, give me Devin Reed right now, 30 minutes of Fox news every day for a year.

I bet you I change. Give me 30 minutes of CNN. And I, by the way, I did the same thing. I went to CNN. I'm like, well, hold on. So they don't like Fox news. Well, let's see what the Fox news people don't like. They don't like CNN. Watch that. I'm like, get it. I get it too. Different flavor of how I think the delivery is a little different, but it ain't really that different. Same shit, different flavor. And so I'm like, Oh, I'm, I'm getting it. And now I'm like, I'm like pondering off the screen. Like, so y'all over here, you don't like them. They don't like you, but you're both watching news stations. That's kind of adding to this and this is all you're kind of doing is just this. And then you go on social media and it's just those same people talking about the same show on social media.

Yeah, I kind of get how we got here, John. Like it's, it's not super confusing and you have to be diligent and vigilant on what you consume and your level of critical thinking to escape those, you know, uh, hamster wheels and to form your own opinion and to decide, Hey, it's okay. Hey, if maybe I kind of agree with a little bit of this and a lot of that and vice versa or none of this. And, you know, like that's okay. You don't have to fit into one of these bubbles. You don't have to subscribe to one of these news outlets. No, I think that, and that's just, you know, it's one of those things where if you stay curious and you're willing to kind of go that extra layer, right? So like one of the things I'm doing, talking about protesting, those types of things is I'm, I'm on the, um, Scott, uh, what's his name?

Who's the unsubscribed Galloway Galloway. Yeah. That's the man. That's my, one of my idol. I don't have idols as a grown man. That guy's fantastic. Right. And so like I've, I've canceled Amazon. I've can't, cause there's just certain companies. I just, and that's my protest, right? It might seem like a little, but financially, like to your point, like going out and, you know, doing a protest. Okay. That's one thing. And that I'm not going to knock anybody who does it. Cause I genuinely appreciate everybody who does take the time, especially out in the cold and all those sort of things, but I can protest my way. And, and that's what I've been trying to do here is, is find ways to be true to myself, not, not kind of jump in with every foot and, and fight every fight.

Because again, my, my mental health, you know, I do have to protect that. Um, but I also got to pick my battles of, of the fights that I put my weight behind because I want to, I want to make it worth it when it, when it is. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of this journey that I'm, that I'm trying to, to figure out. And I appreciate you having this conversation out loud with me, cause it's part of, I think both of our journeys. And I'm curious from you, like, where, where are you going from here with this? Are you just like this type of thing or are you going to be more, more, um, proactive or more thoughtful or more, you know, like, how are you going to, how are you going to kind of move forward from here?

I think the first thing you started with too, is like, what values, you know, what values? And I think this, this, um, this whole thing and this whole experience in this conversation included has only served to remind me of my identity and who I am. And what it's given us is an opportunity to remind yourself and to show others who are you, what do you do when there's pressure really? Cause it's easy when there's no pressure, you can say, um, I would have stood up, I would have punched that guy, I would have done that. Like now let's see, let's see now. So I'm like, all right, there's an opportunity here. Um, it's validating. And now it's like, all right, what are you going to do though? You did, you did one step dev.

That's good. But like one step doesn't, is not, is not it. So like having this conversation with you, hopefully it's something that can go live and, you know, help people. And, you know, I can repurpose it into other content as well. Cause I'm like, cool. I did my thinking out loud with John. I'm going to share that. It's not about frameworks and how shit I've done and learned. It's like, I'm doing it now. Here it is. I don't know. So, um, the thing, uh, back to the value was like, I'm not being quiet, absolutely not being quiet. If it comes up, I'm saying something. And if it doesn't come up, I'm saying something. Sometimes that's in person. Sometimes that's on my platforms. Right. So that's taking different shape.

And my intention there is to inspire someone or to just not make them scared. Like they can do it too. Like you can go have this conversation in your friend group. Um, the other thing I was talking about with my wife, I was like, if I was really going to do one thing physically in the real world, I'm like, dude, I don't know what to do if ice comes to your door. I don't know what my rights are anymore. Shit's changing. So I was like, I saw some online that like, you can, you can go like make flyers and put flyers out in neighborhoods that might be affected sooner than later. Like I got to go South. Like, man, imagine if one flyer taught one person what to do or not do. And they got off, you know, like they didn't get arrested or they didn't get detained.

Like I'll never know, but I don't care. That's enough for me. Um, and then the other thing is, um, for folks may be curious, it's called, uh, the Scott Galloway thing is a resistant unsubscribe. Um, that's next on my, like, what am I going to do and say? So, um, yeah, I got net. Sorry, man. I watched cat Williams last night. That might be my last Netflix thing for a while. Uh, there was like an NBA, there was like an NBA, an ABA for NBA fans. There's the ABA thing on Amazon prime. I'm like, man, I guess I'm waiting on this one. I got to cut prime. So actually, have you heard of, I know we got to get a tie it up here, but do you, have you heard of super box? No, no, I have. Is this my next, is this my backup plan?

Go to super box. It's 250 bucks flat. And it gets every series, every movie, every channel, every live station. You just can't, it just doesn't have DVR. So you can't rewind. I don't have DVR. But you can get literally, I can get your news in San Diego if I wanted to. Oh, I have something similar. Yeah. Yeah. I got something like that. Like, uh, I have Indian in-laws, so they want like Indian news. So we got something like that, but I'm going to check out super box. Got to make sure they support our, our ideologies and the right things. But, uh, that's true. I do got to look at that point. The point real quick with the resistant unsubscribe was like, uh, it's boycotting, but like in the digital era in a way, like, you know, before it was like, you didn't need this diner because there were races.

Like now it's like, well, we got different business, business leaders and we can affect them differently. So that's on that's to do. And then I want to put, uh, the really cool part that I think Scott did well is like, yes, do the unsubscribe, but you got to post it. Like you got to show your receipt literally to other people. Like this is happening. And the momentum he's got has been just even, I know he's just, I'm a fan. So I almost fan boy, but I'm like his, his progress on that thing in three days, he was on CNN in like five days. And he had like over a hundred thousand emails of people who like tagging him and like subscribe, like maybe subscribing to him despite the title. You know what I mean?

So I'm like, cool, that's it. So it's those, like, I say little things, meaning like there's no master plan. It's just like, let's do one thing. How's that look? How's that feel? What impact did it have? All right. Do we want, you know, and just keep, keep doing something like that's, that's it. Don't be quiet. Don't sideline yourself. And at the end of the day, don't be in the group that did nothing. No. And that's, I think the final analogy I'll make is it's kind of like your health, right? Like a lot. I mean, I'm getting up there, right? I just crossed 50 and it's like, you take your body for granted for so long until it forces you not to. And then you, then you have a heart attack and you, and it's like, oh shit, now I got to wake up.

And, and I just, I want people to kind of start addressing this before they have to, right? Because it's, you know, it's going to affect you one way or the other, whether you like it or not, whether it's a friend, a family member or something like that is going to happen. And if you sat on the sideline, cause you didn't think it was your problem and all of a sudden it hits you, you're going to feel pretty shitty about yourself for not at least trying something to make this world a better place. So Devin, man, I appreciate you coming on, man. I had no, I had no kind of plans or questions, you know, other than like, like talking out loud here about this. Cause I'm, I've been struggling with it and trying to figure it out.

And I appreciate you taking that step that got me into the game here a little bit more than I have been. See, man, it's already working. Someone's going to hear this. They're going to do the same thing. You're going to go, someone's gonna buy you on their podcast. So, Hey man, let's just keep going, man. So, you know, I appreciate you and I'm always around. Likewise, brother. Where can people find out? The reader? Yeah. Despite me talking about me not active on LinkedIn, I am usually. So LinkedIn's good or the reader.co. Reader has two E's. It's .co, not .com. .com is too expensive. Awesome. Well, I appreciate it as always. And everybody, hopefully you enjoyed the conversation. Maybe sparked a few ideas in your head about how you can get into the game here and just start helping uplift people as opposed to tear people down.

And like I said, little things, and David said it too, the little things matter. And that's why I always end this podcast with go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile, you know you had a good day. And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey, thanks again for listening to the show and for all your support throughout the years. This is one last reminder to check out my training programs at jbarrows.com or leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2 if you've already gone through my training or sign up for my newsletter.

Any of those will help ensure I can continue to bring you free content and great conversations like the ones you just heard without having to annoy you with sponsors. Again, let's make it happen in 2026 together.