Will Barron: Mastering Sales Fundamentals and Managing Fear

I don't think there's any real secrets in the sales space. There are hacks, but if you want to have long-term success in B2B sales, complex B2B sales, it's understanding the fundamentals. There's no point trying to prospect a pharma on LinkedIn when they're out on the tractor all day. If you call them, they're probably happy to have a chat with you. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And today's conversation is with Will Barrett. Now, Will and I go back a long time ago. I think I was actually on his podcast 10 years ago when he was coming up and his mission is to turn traditional sales training on its head and make things simple.

He has a hit show, Salesman.com Podcast, which is the world's most downloaded sales podcast apparently. It's been awarded the title of New and Noteworthy by Apple and gets over 700,000 downloads a month. Holy shit. And his flagship Salesman Academy training program has 10,000 students and generates a ton of revenue for them. So, um, I guess it has been about 10 years since Will and I talked and he was one of those ones coming up with a podcast and a sales podcast before most people were. And he's a student of the game. And I wanted to have this conversation with him to see how things have evolved from his perspective and where sales is going, what he's seeing out there because he definitely is there on the ground floor.

Uh, kind of like me, you know, still selling every day, but really trying to deal with real world problems, not, you know, those superficial crap, which we're both sick of seeing on LinkedIn, all these people who are influencers and spraying crap that we know doesn't work or work, you know, in a, in an easier time when money was free and now is just actually putting sales reps in a bad position. So we went through a bunch of stuff, you know, his, um, background's really interesting. It's very similar to mine, you know, uh, nondescripts, no real major pain, no real, real major trauma. So we talk about that and how you develop grit without trauma. First of all, um, then about the fundamentals and how we're skipping those fundamentals and we need to get back to them, but what do fundamentals mean in this new world of sales with AI and everything else?

Um, talked a lot about how we just need to flip to the buying process and forget about the selling process. You know, again, sales at its core is a service industry. We are here to service the client. We are here to help people solve problems and achieve goals. And if you're trying to convince people otherwise, then I think you're doing it wrong. And Will shares a very similar mentality as I do. Talked about one thing that is really peaking my interest right now, which is, you know, the bad sales techniques and trainers out there, at least the ones I think are bad and do the, do the means justify the ends, right? Like if it is a good product ultimately that is going to help somebody, uh, in some form or fashion, does it matter how sleazy you are to convince them to get that?

I think that's where a lot of sales reps these days are justifying their actions. And, uh, we dove into that and what that actually means. And then talked about his frameworks. You know, he has a book called 15 proven step-by-step frameworks or books actually called selling made simple. And it gives frameworks. And then he's also got a sales code book about 18 sales skills. So we dove into those as well. So this one's all sales all the time. Um, super interesting conversation. Hopefully it'll get you to think and start to understand again, the essence of sales and get back to what makes this profession so great. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Will Barron.

Welcome to the make it happen Monday podcast. My friend, it has been a minute. How are you? I'm good. I'm looking forward to having a chat with you, John. You, you were one of the, I think you within the first hundred episodes of people that I interviewed on my show many, many years ago. So I was trying to think of how long ago that was. How do you remember when that was? Cause I think it was like, like legit, like 10 years ago. I was, I was trying to wrap my head around it. I'll, I'll find out when you can put it in the show notes perhaps. But, um, when I was, I now I run a sales training company, sales.com first time I interviewed you, I was just doing the podcast. I had no intention to do any sales training whatsoever.

It was just how can I learn how to improve my sales skills and do it publicly so other people can learn on the back of it as well. So I'm a very grateful and humbled and honored to, uh, to be on your platform. Yeah. I'm glad you're here, man. I mean, I think that you did the same mentality as far as why I started the podcast. It was actually for my, from selfish purposes. So I could learn, right? Cause I don't really learn by reading books or going to courses or any of that stuff. I learned by talking to people who are smarter than me. And so it's really just been a, you know, an avenue for me to, to, to engage and learn. So I appreciate you coming on. And I'm, I'm really interested in kind of your story and your journey over the years, since we talked the first time, um, and kind of your perception of what's going on today in sales compared to what was, but before we get there, uh, give the audience a little bit of background here.

And when I talk about background, I don't mean just the stuff that we can learn on LinkedIn about you. Like go, go back to growing up like parents, like where'd you get the entrepreneurial itch, if you will. I mean, didn't you study chemistry or something like that? Wasn't that your degree? So, so walk me through kind of like how do you, how do you grew up where your parents had influence and then kind of get, get us through why you chose college and, and, and chemistry and then how you fell into sales just like everybody else. So give us that context. I absolutely love it. Cause I absolutely, well, I choose, I chose it as my first job at university, but we can get to that. So I purposely leaned that direction as I was falling into it.

Okay. And, but I grew up in a very wonderful yet, uh, average kind of low middle class family here in the UK. Wasn't given anything. There was no kind of a pot of cash at the end of many rainbows. Um, mom and dad were really hard. Mom was a pharmacy technician. She passed away. Now she had cancer. My dad was a, um, started off as a toolmaker in industry. Then he ran his own business on, on the back of that later on, uh, before he retired. And now he has like a handful of property, which is his pension. So very normal, which I see as sometimes it's a, for my happiness and sanity and, uh, emotional, um, kind of wellbeing. It's very much a positive thing, but from a competitive edge, it could also not be seen as a, as such a positive.

I find for the people I've interviewed on my podcast, the people who are the ultra elite, which I don't particularly aspire to be. I want to be pretty good, make a load of money in sales and then retire early as we were just talking about pre-recorded. Maybe we can get some of that. I don't think you need to be ultra elite. I think you need to just be able to get your head down and do the job. And that's what I've been wired to do. So I think most of the ultra elite people I've engaged with over the years have some kind of trauma. There was some kind of incident of some kind of issue, which led them to give the world an F you or fighting back or do something along those lines. I, um, from a, uh, happiness standpoint, I guess, didn't go for any of that.

Lovely childhood, lovely family, two brothers, a month passed away of cancer. That is what it is. My dad's still around and I'm plodding on. And I loved science at school. I inadvertently was told years later that I had an entrepreneurial streak, but I didn't realize what that was. And this was highlighted to me. We, we did a bit of traveling with scouts. Our scout troop was not like your typical scout troop. We, the only badges we had were like a thousand nights camping. We had no other badges. Um, and we went all over Europe. We went to Thailand, went all over the place and it was on the way back. And this is, this is a really vivid memory for me on the way back from Thailand. My scout leader was like, oh yeah, you're very entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial with what you get up to.

Um, and I'd bought a bunch of, uh, stuff in Thailand to just resell to my friends while I was home. And that's what brought up the conversation. But then the scout leader, his name is Alan. He brought up a bunch of situations where I'd been entrepreneurial in the past as well of, I was buying a bunch of yo-yos on the market when yo-yos was a trend, when that was cool. When I was probably like 14, 15, getting selling them at school. And I hadn't twigged that that was a career because even though my dad ran a business, it was, uh, the business was created. Essentially it was his job, but outsourced. I didn't understand that you could, and that this is really, I wish this was taught in schools.

I wish this was communicated, um, earlier on, especially in the UK. In the US, you've got a bit more of a entrepreneurial mindset in general, but in the UK, it's seen as risky. It's seen as a, um, people don't support you until you've made it in the UK. There's a bunch of cultural elements to all of this, but it was that moment that I realized that, oh, you can create something, add some value to a process, a system, a product, an individual, and they will happily pay you for that return. So I went to university, loved chemistry, worst chemistry student of all time, failed the first year, uh, then recovered slightly, did well in, uh, my dissertation, which was computational chemistry dissertation was published in the journal computational chemistry.

And from there, the only role from that was a sales role was something to do with chemistry because I couldn't, I couldn't be in a lab. I needed to be out talking to people. I needed to be doing something. And at that point, very, I very well understood the value of having cash. The, the, the idea of sales where you put in the sweat and you generate cash on the back of that, which is different to most jobs, seemed to me, I realized that in the moment, in that moment, that that was a real opportunity. So that led me to my first, uh, chemical sales role, got sacked from that within the first six months. I missed a decimal place out. I put a decimal place in the wrong place on a, uh, invoice and they honored it.

So I sold, uh, GlaxoSmithKline, 5,000 pounds, 50,000 pounds worth of platinum for, for, for 5,000 pounds. So that was, that was, that was me, uh, politely out the door, uh, kind of, uh, within that probationary period of my first sales role. Then I got into medical device sales, loved it. And that, that is when I spent the, the, me as a individual contributor, bag holding salesperson, that was where I spent my career working for the two best companies in that space. Love it. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process.

It also includes monthly workshops that'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like chat GPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to JBarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. It's funny, man. You and I got a very similar background and beliefs as far as like the ultra lead. Like I've never professed to, you know, the guy who did free fall, free climb, the guy who climbed the, I don't know if you saw the document, right?

So I remember seeing him at this, you know, drifted their, you know, sales, or no, it was like their conference or whatever. And they had him as their motivational speaker. And there's a fine line of motivational speakers. Like sometimes like, oh man, yeah, I can go conquer the world. But other times it's demotivating because you see how much effort they put in and how much they dedicated to be the best at what they do. And I looked at him after he tells the story and I'm like, there is nothing in my life. I mean, outside of my daughter, there is literally nothing in my life that I would ever dedicate that much of time and effort into. So like, it was demotivating to me because I'm like, I'm never going to be that fucking guy.

Like I look to the normal people that kind of rose through. And, and I've always said, like, I'm, I'm slightly above average at a lot of things. You know what I mean? I'm not great at everything, anything, but I'm slightly above average at a lot of things. And I do believe that if you do it, you know, right and well, you can make a great living. You just might not be the elite of the elite. And, and to your point, I've been searching when I've on this podcast quite a bit of asking people who have done that, like, do you need to face trauma and true diversity to, to have grit? And I'll, I love your perspective on this. I, I don't think you need trauma to develop grit, but I think you need trauma to maybe, you know, kickstart your ability to really be driven to be the best in a lot of ways, like really bad rock bottom type of shit.

Cause I've seen it too often, but I don't think you need to expose to, you know, not major trauma to develop grit. What are your thoughts on the grit factor of perseverance and those type of things and how, you know, how that's helped shape you? I think there are two people that end up at the, the top of the food chain with, with this kind of thing. Some people like, I'm sure if Alex was here, there'd be a, there's a more polite way of describing this. I'm just going to say what is in my head. He seems slightly broken. Like watching Free Solo, he, and not to say that someone who, I was just going to say, he seems slightly autistic. Not that someone who's autistic is broken. That's the, obviously that's not what I'm saying, but the, the, which is why I'm being careful with my words here.

But even the way that he communicates with his girlfriend in the Free Solo show, and I know a bunch of adventure, adventure photographers who spent time with him and have done work in the field with him. And he's just a psychopath. He seems very lovely and very nice. He's a psychopath. So there's, he's an outlier might be another way of looking at it. He is clearly wired differently. Was he dropped on his head as a child? Maybe. Did he go through some trauma? Maybe. Maybe he's just wired differently, which is great, right? Because you need those kinds of people. And I find him incredibly inspiring. I don't want to be climbing El Capitan with no rope. I don't want to be, I used to do a lot of bouldering and a little bit of leap climbing.

I don't want to be doing any of that with no rope. Because I don't have that gene in me or it's, it's, it's inert. It's not turned on. Well, willing to risk my life to be on the, a North Face advert, to be on the front of a climbing magazine, to do something that no one else has done. Now, he might say that you and I have just not found our thing yet. And I think that is a, a fair comment as well. Maybe something will happen to one of us. Maybe we all see something. Maybe, you know, for the past 12 months, I've been absolutely just enamored with landscape photography on a mountain photography in particular. I've, I've, I've wrapped up a bunch of work this year and turned down hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of business so that I can go and sell on a mountain in the cold and take some pictures of stuff that doesn't really, and it only goes up, it goes on the wall in here, in the house downstairs, in the hall downstairs.

Nobody cares about it. You know, I feel it's pretty good. I've got a photography coach who thinks for one year in, I'm doing exceptionally well, but nobody cares over them myself. So maybe there's, there's a thread there that in 10 years, you could, you could become more savage on those routes. But if we translate all this back to sales, you don't need to be an outlier to make hundreds of thousands, if not, you know, skirting a million dollars a year in sales. You need process, you need grit, which I think is slightly different to being a psychopath. The, the, the grit element of being able to bum in seat when you don't want to do something can have difficult conversations with people when they crop up and be able to persevere.

I think that's a learnable skill as opposed to something that you have to be born with, or you have to have trauma to, to, to, to ignite it within you. So in the context of sales, well, the kind of my rhetoric of the 1% in outliers is slightly different. Um, but yeah, in the grand scheme of things, just to, to kind of emphasize the point, I interviewed a astronaut on my podcast, super intelligent doctor. Um, then it, then he became a fire pilot in the Navy. I think then he became an astronaut, uh, a test pilot, I said to him, I was like, you sit on literally an explosion that fires you away from the planet that you were evolved to be on. And the, you know, the, the success rate is not 100%. People obviously die somewhat regularly.

If there was more spaceflight, there'd be a lot more deaths and it'd be a lot more public because it happens relatively rarely. The number of rockets being set up, um, the numbers are kind of, uh, dumbed down slightly. And he said, yes, but I trust the process and I trust the team behind it. So he, absolute outlier 1%, clearly a psychopath to sit on a rocket and be fired up into space. Um, and he, he, he spent a lot of time in the International Space Station. He turned, he communicated it from a, his, he, he took what would make outside looking in like a psychopath. And he turned it in, he dumbed that down in that NASA have the best scientists, got the best support. If anyone's going to have success in this, it's going to be me.

And so he's, he could put his belief in the team and the process, which when I said to him, I was like, why can you do that and not be nervous when people are nervous about picking up the phone and doing a cold call? And he just literally sat back and started laughing. Um, so that, that was the, the point of the tale of my podcast when I chatted with him about it of drilling down of what, what is scary and what isn't. Um, but yeah, the, uh, we're kind of going, I've got, I've got around the circles a little bit here, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's kind of complicated and it depends what context you're talking about outliers and 1% within. Yeah. And I think like you said, it's all relative, right?

Like when you do take a step back and you realize like getting hung up on a cold call is, you know, in context, it really isn't that big of a deal. Uh, but if you look at it as a learning experience and a growth mindset, that type of thing, you can start to get through it. And that's why I think a lot of people, you know, for instance, even on a small tactical standpoint, they look right now, cold calling is absolutely brutal. Nobody picks up the phone. You know, why am I even doing this? And I'm like, you're not doing it for the outcome. You're doing it for the process. You're doing it to, to learn what it takes to get through and have my new, my new conversations with people to earn the right to have a deeper conversation.

You're doing it because you're learning how to articulate a message in a way that resonates with people in a short period of time. You're doing it to see if you can just fucking do it and get through the gauntlet of what sales is, which is actually going to lead me to my next, you know, topic or point here with you is I'm curious from your perspective on, on, we're going to talk about what you've seen as far as what's changed in sales a lot, but there's, I'm with AI and all the stuff that's happening right now. I'm obviously we've gotten away from fundamentals and quite a bit when it comes to sales. I've actually, my keynote these days is age of the agile sales org. And I'm, and I'm saying that between 2010 and 2022, I'm deeming as the golden age of sales because we got away with some crazy ass shit, especially in tech, you know, blast out template emails, generic demos, discounts off there.

And we lost sight of these fundamentals. Now the predictable revenue model was, it was a way when Salesforce came out with that to segment the roles and actually grow a sales team, right? So you could kind of, instead of being a full cycle, which is what I grew up in, you, you, you start with the inbound, then you do the outbound, then you move to sales. So it actually, when done right, it's good for an organization because it helps build a sales reps skills at every level. I've never thought it was a customer centric approach in any way, shape or form, but that's a different topic. Now we're, we're automating so much of that front end of the sales process and, and moving back to, in a lot of ways, full cycle or even skipping sales altogether and going to customer success or engineers, that type of thing.

So I'm curious from your perspective, where the future sales reps are going to come from. If they don't graduate through the process of, you know, making cold calls for the first two to five years of their career, then getting given a big book of business and that type of stuff, like, where do you think we're going to develop the true sales reps of the future or how are they going to develop? Well, hopefully the process that they're developing on right now stops and the market just doesn't accept the bullshit anymore. And there's almost a fresh start back to the fundamentals. Funny, as, as before you said it, I wrote down the word fundamentals on the pad of paper in front of me. That is the thing.

We're doing all kinds of fancy automation. You probably have your finger on the pulse with the companies you work with on the automation and the AI side of things more than me. I've not seen any automation or AI that works. I will flat out say that. I've tried, I don't have any sponsors on my podcast or at sales.com anymore because I had to sack them all because none of it worked. It was all bullshit and I was sick of talking about them all. And which is, you know, for me, it was probably half a million in revenue that I just dropped over the course of two or three weekends of me going, I just don't, I don't want to talk about this stuff when I know fundamentally that sure in the, in a perfect world, some of this would work, but in the real world, people automating shit that doesn't work in the first place.

So they're trying to go from a 1% mean booking rate on a cold outreach and scale it to 10,000 emails a week, as opposed to go from 1% to 10%, where they're not actually pissing off half the total addressable market as they go across that point. At some point, that'll switch. There will absolutely be an outbound agent chatbot call tool that will work for 12, 18 months. And then people will be sick of that because everyone will be pestered on it. And there'll be some legislation comes in that stops people spamming. Because when you can, when you're spamming at the rate of a human, the market can kind of keep up and tools can be put in place. When you spam at the rate of AI and CPU cycles, the legislation will then just come in to resolve it because the whole economy will just wind down to phones ringing off the hook 24-7.

They've already done that here in the States. So the FCC already put in some rules against AI robo-dials. Now that's for US companies, unfortunately. It doesn't mean that other countries can't call into us using that technology. So thankfully that's being put in place. But I think it's, it's still, it's still curious to me. I even wonder what the future skills need to be as a sales rep. I mean, business acumen, conversational intelligence and curiosity, I think, but those are very subjective in a lot of ways. So I think what, with the, so, you know, with the growth of a sales professional and I think some fundamentals not even being necessary in some cases based on where we're going, what do you think the skills are necessary to, to train on, if you will, moving forward?

And what does that look like? Like what is, what in your vision, if you were to say, okay, I see the trajectory based on all the conversations you've had here, what do you think the, the sales rep looks like in the future? And what's their role in the sales process or in the, I'm sorry, in the buying process? Cause I forget, forget about the sales process. I think the sales process is bullshit. That's what I was going to say. You took the words out of my mouth. The, the, the shtick is how do we help the buyer make a decision one way or another? As soon as you recalibrate your entire process around that sales, salespeople become useful. They're actually a tool that a buyer wants to leverage to help solve complex problems.

And you, I was, I was, I was waiting to jump on that as soon as you finished your question and you, you, you took the shine away from me, uh, John, but that's exactly, that's all it is. Salespeople feel less gross salesy. They have less of the ick because all you're doing is helping that prospect move to the next step of their buyer's journey. They're not a good fit. No worries. And if that's a pressure for you as a salesperson, you've not got enough pipeline. If you've got enough pipeline and, and you work for a company that doesn't sell a shit product, you, you work for a company that people want to work with. Um, you know, even if they don't know who you are yet, when you have those conversations, there is some level of excitement which isn't a trick.

It's not a, it's not a hack. It's not some bullshit that some, uh, jumped up influencer on LinkedIn tells you say these three magic words in this, uh, in an innovative way. And someone's going to book a meeting with you. None of that bullshit. When you can communicate, I helped this person solve this problem in this way. You share that via outbound in some way, typically to book a meeting. Then you have a conversation with the person that's like, oh yeah, that is actually a problem. How do I resolve this? You might. And then you, you, you go back and forth and essentially consult with them and you wrap up the call with, does it make, does, is this the next step? Would it make sense to do this?

And they say, yeah. So if they say no, you go, okay, well, what would be the next step? Once we frame up a conversation like that of, we're just helping that person make a decision, then sales becomes a useful tool in the economy again. So this is interesting. Cause I literally just had this conversation last night and, uh, it was fascinating. So that usually when I get into an Uber, I just kind of put my earbuds in, I'm checking emails, whatever it is. But for whatever reason, last night I was going out to dinner. I was like, fuck it. Let's, you know, let's engage in a conversation. And this, this kid who picked me up, you know, he eventually, as we got down the road a little bit, he goes, Hey, I noticed there's a lot of solar, um, power, you know, solar on, on a lot of the houses in your neighborhood.

And I just kind of went into it. I was like, yeah, you know, we got it first. And there's kind of like a ripple effect and everybody else started doing it. And it makes sense, the incentives. And I just kind of went off on like artists and he's like, Oh yeah, you know, I work for, and he said the solar, a solar company. And I was like, Oh, great. And I started going into like how door to door sales is like the most purest form of sales. And if you're good at that, like, God bless you. You know what I mean? Cause you get literally doors slammed in your face. Right. And, um, the, the conversation evolved to his frustration about how the, the, the company that he works for celebrates the douchey sales reps and the, and the ones who are using all these techniques to convince people to do.

And sometimes sometimes not even techniques, like sometimes he's like bold face lying to them. Right. And, and he's like, and it's frustrating because my company celebrates that every month, you know, the month and I'm trying to do it the right way. I'm super transparent. I tell people what my, the margins are and how I'm getting paid. Right. And it's been working for me, but I'm never on top of the leaderboard. And this is where I'm going with this conversations. Like sometimes the question I have is to the, to the means justify the ends in the sense that if you are selling something like solar actually helps a lot of people, like it does reduce their bills. It does help them, you know, all this other stuff, uh, besides the environmental component of it, obviously.

So if you believe that something is good ultimately for the majority of people that they might not know, but you're using these sleazy techniques to get them to do it. I, I think that's how those types of sales have sleep at night. Cause they're like, look, yeah, yeah, whatever, but it's going to help them in the long run. So I don't give a shit. Whatever I got to say to get them to do it, it's going to do it. I make money there, you know, they're ultimately happy. Who cares? I personally can't sleep at night with that approach. And this kid couldn't either. And so I guess from your perspective, going back to the buying process and helping people solve problems, if you know that your solution is going to solve a problem for the most part, for the most people, do the ends justify the means to get there.

I'm here to help people make a bunch of money. I love nothing more than I jump on a group coaching call. It happened this morning. Someone just got a hundred thousand dollar bonus this quarter. I just killing it. Absolutely killing it. But if someone feels uncomfortable in the role, they're going to feel more comfortable and congruent in a different role where that isn't the situation that they find themselves in and they're going to have more success there. So I don't believe that the ends justify the means. I'm also in a very privileged position where I paid off my mortgage, a bunch of money in the bank, you know, run a successful business, blah, blah, blah, started two businesses, blah, blah, blah.

So it's very easy for me to say that if 10 years ago when I quit my sales role, started the podcast and started trying to build business, absolutely skid. So it would be unfair of me to come along on my high horse and dictate that, yes, you should only do things when it's right for the customer, you know, et cetera, other than obviously it should be somewhat moral, ethical and legal what you're doing. So with that context in place, I think the real question is that lad, if he's driving Uber and doing a sales role, should just get into a B2B sales role where his customers actually want to communicate with him as an adult and he doesn't need to do all the bullshit and he will have way more success and make a bunch more money and probably work less hours and less faffing around.

Well, let me put a comparison here for you. Let's go to what you and I do or, you know, from a sales training and that type of thing. You know, we have the Grant Cardones of the world, who is one of my least favorite people, quite frankly. I think he represents everything that's bad about selling, but I don't believe he thinks that. I do believe that he thinks that what he is teaching is helping sales reps make a bunch of money, like you said. And so therefore he's super proud of what he's doing because these reps are taking and he's seeing people do $100,000 months and those type of things. I look at, and that guy is, I mean, he's not 10x me. He's a thousandx me. He's 10,000x me. And I've been chugging away my entire career in B2B sales, trying to do it, in my opinion, the right way, but I'm nowhere near.

And so I've always wondered, and I actually asked Guy Kawasaki this when he was on the podcast recently, that do you have to be a raging asshole to reach the pinnacle of perceived success? Not, you know, we all define success in different ways, but you think of the, you know, all these different people, like Elon and all these different people who are just raging assholes, but yet they've reached this like status level. So I don't think the answer is yes, but I do question the long slog of doing it right versus skipping steps to make your millions. Depends what the goal is, right? I do not care if, so I'm not religious, it's just, I die just a pile of dirt in the ground. That's a boo-hoo for people around me.

And then they'll forget it. A generation later, no one knows who I was anyway. My book is probably still like on someone's shelf somewhere or still unbred. So that is what it is, right? So if you, so if you have a nihilistic view on the world and you think that no one else, it doesn't really matter for anyone else, then maybe you do go down that route and you make a bunch of money and you buy a yacht and you're good for me. For me, that's not how I want to live day to day. And so I can't in good conscious encourage someone else to go down that route. But have I cut corners to make money? Probably, probably not consciously. Maybe I could have, maybe, maybe if I could look back or rewind time, I would do things differently.

Um, but I, unless you're conscious of that in that moment, it's very difficult to do so. Um, so yeah, I, I, is, is what you're asking me, is there a glass ceiling for trainers who don't want to be a dickhead? Is that the question? Or anybody, quite frankly, you know what I mean? Like in business, right? So I don't think that's the case, right? So if you look at someone like Seth Godin, he seems like a really cool dude. He seems like he's making an absolute shitload of money. He's run loads of businesses. Um, he, I find his books really useful. Um, from a conceptual standpoint, it's not very practical, but from a, uh, a mind opening, uh, standpoint, I find, I, I think it's really cool. You look at, uh, Richard Branson, Richard Branson, Gary Vaynerchuk, you know, the, there's, there is probably just as many people who have done it quote unquote from your words, the right way versus people that you consider have done it the wrong way.

I think you've also got to consider the fact that Grant Cardone's audience from a sales training perspective, which he just left behind essentially now, right? It's, it's, it's just been demolished by a bunch of other sales trainers. Um, like Andy Elliott had just wiped out a bunch of his marketplace over the past few years. And Andy seems like, I've never spoken to Andy, he seems like a good dude, but he's down this similar kind of route of making grown men, take their shirts off and call them fat in front of other people, which like is kind of, kind of depending on, depending on you, if you need it to me, it would be hilarious. I, I would, I would be like, okay, maybe, maybe getting more better shape would be, uh, motivational.

To do it to the wrong person, you obviously could really upset them. Um, but yeah, I don't think there's a glass ceiling to any of that. I think people also resonate with specific personalities. So I am a lot more introverted than I am extroverted. I jump on a podcast like this. I have turned on the, the, the, the, the extrovertedness. I have to turn on that. I've probably been shouting the whole episode. I have to turn that on. Usually I'm a bit more like quiet as I speak. Um, so all that gets turned on. Whereas I think Grant Cardone is probably just Grant Cardone. And, and, and, and I know you, you've, I've seen content that you've, uh, comments you've had about him over the years. I email him once a year.

He emails me back with a bit of business advice. And he's always been very cordial with me. You, you, the next level of that is like the Jordan Belfort who I interviewed in my podcast. I couldn't publish the episode because he's just, I'm being conscious of my language again, but he, it was not an episode that my audience, they would find it hilarious. It is still on the computer. It's, it's, it may be snipped up and published at some point. I would love to see that. I've got value from it. Yeah. I would absolutely love to see that because actually one of my favorite ones is this is where I actually give Jordan Belfort a little bit more credit than Grant, because I don't know if you saw the interview between those two and Grant was like, yeah, zero, zero interest is, is it, is still interest.

And Jordan's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, that makes no sense. And so I was like, like for a shining moment, I was like, Oh, Jordan, like you kind of get it. But after that, I kept listening. You've also considered those two are marketing machines. They, I'm not doing, I don't know about yourself, John, but I'm not doing what they're doing from a marketing perspective. Not even close. I don't, also just don't give a shit. I'll make a bunch of money this year. That's more money than what I can spend reasonably. Cause as I said earlier on, my expensive tastes are driving to Scotland with me dog and going up a big hill. You know what I mean? As sad as that sounds. No, sounds great to me.

There's tens of thousands of pounds worth of camera gear all over the place. Later, as, as we speak, just, just thrown across the, the, the room as we sit in. But other than that, um, so yeah, so it depends on your aspirations. It depends on your goals. I think you can win big in business, in training, in sales by doing things the right way. I don't think that there is a, you, you, maybe you shortcut the process, but for everyone, Grant Cardone, who's had massive success. As I said, he offers me useful business advice every now and again. We, we perhaps have not dissimilar, but different, slightly different angle on, on the, the take on him as a, and I don't know him as a person, maybe he's great as a person, as a, as a, as a father, whatever it is.

Um, but the, um, for everyone, Grant Cardone, there is 40,000 red faced, angry sales managers driving around in a, uh, uh, secondhand red BMW. It would just pissed off all the time because it hasn't worked out for them. That's the truth. So let's talk about what to pay attention to then. Right. Cause there's so much noise for, and, and with the context of helping the buyer buy versus selling. Right. And cause I think there's a lot of people who are getting into sales who are in sales and they just don't know who or what to pay attention to anymore because, you know, then let's bring it to LinkedIn. You know, there's so much noise on LinkedIn right now from people who were super successful, you know, three, four, five, six, 10 years ago, um, when I'm positioning.

Yeah. But, but again, it was more circumstance in the sense that they were at the company that was a rocket ship and they used whatever tactics at that time were, were, were effective, documented them, and now are telling people to use, Hey, you know, I was the best part, you know, rep here. So you should pay attention to me. And I look at those people and I'm like, okay, are you selling in today's environment? Because today's environment is drastically different than when interest rates were two, three percent. Okay. Um, and, and I think, and this is, I, I found this out recently, by the way, um, you know, challenger sale. So, you know, jolt effect, the new book, right? So jolt effect, which I'm a huge fan of to your point, like, like Seth Godin conceptually, right?

It's indecision, not don't, no decision, all this other stuff. And they dove into it. I, however, they solve that problem. Jolt, I, you know, that's whatever. Um, but it really highlighted, Ooh, that is what's happening right now. But the thing is, is that challenger sale, the reason the jolt effect came to fruition is because challenger was looking at their own numbers using their own techniques. And they saw like an 85% drop in conversion ratios in this market using challenger sale techniques. And so they were like, Oh, we need to spit off another thing to talk about this. And so, but challenger sales people, I'm guessing they're probably still buying five to 10,000 books a month on that day on Amazon.

Right. So people are still consuming challenger sale content and probably misapplying it in a lot of ways and not seeing the results. So how do you know what to pay attention to a what's changed from your perspective, especially recently? And B what should reps be paying attention to at this point so that they don't go down a path that is leading them in a direction that is not going to help the buyer buy? What's changed is a four hour conversation that I will give the highlights for, right? And it almost doesn't matter. It's almost irrelevant when we get onto what to pay attention to and how to improve your own performance. What's changed is constantly in flux. Another four years from now, it'll be something else.

And inevitably, there's going to be some AI tool that's going to come along and genuinely disrupt things to a much deeper level than the generative AI that we have right now. So that is a constant flux. That is something that you should try and pay attention to. But when you sell with fundamentals, that then becomes less relevant. So what has changed, and you know this better than me, and you cannot take it as far better than me, having worked in the Silicon Valley and the SaaS market, and you mentioned interest rates earlier on, people are, people have the perception that there is less money. There is still tons of money about, it's just how it is being spent is being looked at at a much deeper level, and people aren't buying crap like what they used to.

Yeah, that's true. Obviously, I'm simplified in- Or unnecessary, let's put it this way, if it's not crap, unnecessary things. It's just crap. It's just crap. You look at the average company's sales stack, they're spending grand per rep a month on crap, and they won't spend 1,500 quid a month on training. It's crazy. It is absolutely crazy. Because a tool can be articulated in a, this tool will help you this way, solve this problem in this way. And that is very, that's the magic bullet. That's sexy, that's exciting. To come in and to rewire some people's brains, maybe some of the team have no zero personal accountability. They've got a good process, but they won't actually put it in place. Maybe some people like me need to be able to learn to turn on a level of extrovertedness to have more adult conversations on a call and come across more assertively.

That is more nuance. That is more, to program the human is very difficult to do via an app that is installed and is 35 quid a month per seat, right? Changing behavior is one of the hardest things to do. Yeah. Period. And when you do it, it's potentially the most impactful. If you ask a CEO what they would rather, what would be more impactful for them? Some kind of coach, mentor, trainer versus a new tool that helps them do X, Y, Z. They're going to want to work on themselves nine times a day. And so that can be scaled down to, you know, maybe not Jackie in HR who just answers emails all day. Who cares? Maybe she can be automated via AI and a tool and an app. But for a salesperson, especially in the complex sales environment where the buyer's journey is complex and there are nuances to it, then working on the person is the most important thing.

So what's changed is, as you kind of alluded to, businesses sound, feel like they have no cash. They feel like there is a recession. You know, obviously the data supports that there's been a bunch of recessions over the past three, four years. As much as every government on the planet is trying to avoid using that word, maybe the flow of money has been constricted, but there's still a ton of money moving through that pipe. So what we need to do is go back to the fundamentals and accurately articulate what would, first off, being a job, making things easier for yourself, being a job, being a role, sell a product that people actually want and need and care for. And you believe in. You could be the world's greatest salesperson, but if you're selling crap that no one actually cares about, there's no value in it being implemented, then you're just making your life hard for yourself.

So this is why I did medical advice sales. I only ever worked for the best companies in space. One, Olympus Keymed owned 49% of the market. The other, Kostolz, owned 49% of the market. And there was a bunch of smaller companies in the middle, battling over the scraps. So I knew that I would walk up to an operating room in the UK, flash my Storch badge or my Olympus badge, just walk in, which absolutely should not happen. You shouldn't be able to get access like that. But that was the power of the brands I was working for. So step one is work for a company that even if it's a startup, it's going to have the potential that when you communicate your message, your value proposition, people want to go.

What you want is the response of, I don't really want to speak to Will today. I really don't have time to speak to Will. I'm not doing the due diligence that I need to do for my job unless I just jump on a quick call. So that makes the meeting booking process a lot easier and smoother. Then you can diagnose their issues. Then you can help them, if appropriate, move down the buyer's journey. But the change is that there's a perception rightfully and wrongfully, depending on your mindset of all of this and how much accountability you want to take for your own success. But there's at least a perception, I think it's fair to say, that there's a constriction in the spending of small, medium and the enterprise.

Who you should pay attention to is less relevant now than it ever has been because there's just so much trash out there that's been regurgitated. And I see people rip off my, which I don't care about because it's always better to be the source, right? I see people rip off my content all the time. Just copy and paste, whether it be the structure. I'm sure you've been in business longer than me. You've had a generation of all this longer than what I have. I've been in business kind of nine, 10 years at this point with sales.com. You're running way beyond that, right? Yeah. I'm coming up on 48, 48. So yeah, 28, 27, six years. Yeah. Yeah. So you've, you've had two generations of salespeople come through to having been trained by you who are now regurgitating your stuff out of context on LinkedIn.

So you, the goal with the self-improvement is to have a series of numbers, benchmarks, something concrete that you're moving towards. And then it doesn't matter what I say or what, you know, for the audience, it doesn't matter what John says. It's, I try this, it moves me closer or further away from the benchmark that I'm aiming for. If it moves you closer, then you do more of it. If it moves you further away, you do less of it. So I think the, I don't think there's any real secrets in the sales space. There are hacks. There are, you can scrape this database in this way for the next month before that loophole gets closed. Some of that can be useful, but if you want to have long-term success in B2B sales, complex B2B sales, it's understanding the fundamentals of who is your ideal customer.

How do they, what platform do they want to be communicated on? There's no point trying to prospect a farmer on LinkedIn when they're out on the tractor all day. You probably, if you call them, they're probably happy to have a chat with you. And you know, there's obviously a stupid, not necessarily a stupid example, but a cliche example there. But farmers will spend half a million quid on farm gear. And maybe all you've got to do is call them. And they're probably happy to come and play with some new toys and see what you've got anyway. So if you two hide on LinkedIn, with like what most, not most, a lot of salespeople want to do right now, you've got to go to the market and the platform. You've got to go to the platform where the market is at.

Then it's more fundamentals. Like don't send a message if it's not going to the right person with the right message at the right time. You should use the acid test of, if I received this message, would I give a shit? And if you wouldn't give a shit, then you probably shouldn't send it. There's a series of kind of checks and balances that you can do across your outreach, across the entirety of the sales process. Micro-closing, you know, asking the question, would it make sense to do this? If the answer is yes, fantastic. Next step of the process, if they say no, you're okay. Well, what would it make sense to do? Allow them to coach you on how to get to that next step. The fundamentals like that, if you learn and implement them, it doesn't matter what changes happen at a macro level because business is just business.

It's just exchanging value on different platforms and difficulties in different ways. And that is exchanged via communicating these kind of simple points. Yeah, I like that. And I think that's the key, right? Is just continuously trying new approaches and new techniques. And much to my dismay or disdain, you know, a lot of the stuff that I see on LinkedIn that I know hasn't, doesn't really have any context, but is a reasonable tip in the right scenario. You know, maybe that kid who's reading that uses that and it does work for them, whether there is context to it or not, or depth to it or not, whether it's a regurgitated thing, but it helps. So I think what, what, you know, you and I are both fans of, and I want to get into some of these, that you've created is these frameworks that allow reps to test and try different approaches within the framework without it being a script.

So one of your books is Selling Made Simple, right? Which is, I think, 15 proven step-by-step frameworks to succeed in sales or whatever that tagline is. When you talk about 15 proven frameworks, are these frameworks at the various stages of the sales process or are these frameworks for 15 different frameworks for the sales process in general? And tell me which one kind of, you're a fan of these days that is, that you would lean into the most right now. So the book is set up to help you understand, it's set up to help you get in front of buyers to explain the value and then to close a deal. The first step of all that being to understand your marketplace. So unless you know who your ideal customer episode is, hopefully you can go to your sales leadership.

They've done all this research and they will tell you exactly what it is. Nine times out of 10, they can't tell you jack shit. And so you've got to do it yourself. So your first step is to understand who your buyer is. Go back through the CRM, you know, if there's been someone on your patch previously, who is the person who buys the biggest deals, the quickest, the easiest, with less faffing around? That is the person you want to spend more time with. If you don't have that data, then you start with a broader audience. And as they go through your funnel, to use this as a kind of a visual, as they go through a, you know, or we call it a traditional sales funnel, but as they go through it, the people that come out of the other end, we just put more of them back in and then we iterate again.

And then we put more of them back in, we get more granular as we go through that cycle. And that is, that's a month, if you can, depending on how many meetings you can book, obviously, but that could be a month of iterating, iteration of, however you describe it, a month of iteration to then come up, to come up with a ICP that is valid in the marketplace that you know, then that for every 100 of those people that you outreach to, you're going to book 10 meetings on the back of it. Once you've done that for one second of the market, you might do it for another sliver and another sliver, until you get to the point where you book enough meetings a quarter to satisfy all the rest of the goals. So the book and all my training is based upon that principle of understand the market, get in front of your buyers, explain the value and close the deal.

And each framework helps you with one step of that. So the second framework of the book is building the value proposition. So the end goal of the framework is I help this person solve this problem in this way. Hopefully the way is somewhat interesting or exciting. Doesn't have to be. If you're selling HR software to HR folks, it's probably not very sexy. But if you can add some kind of nuance to it, some kind of twist to it, which there is almost certainly a way to go about doing that, obviously it increases the curiosity that's built within all the outreach and the conversations you're going to have. So the framework itself will look at who are your buyers? What are their jobs? What are their pains?

And we essentially go across a diagram that we have in the book that you can draw in that leads to the products that you have, the solutions that they offer, and then the desires of the buyer. You tie them all together into what is the one thing. This is all I want for people in the prospecting. What is the one thing that when you share it with a potential customer, they go, oh, I've got to jump on a quick call with them. That is it. We're not trying to sell them anything. We're trying to convince them of anything. We're not trying to pitch them anything. It's just what's that one open loop of curiosity where they can only solve the loop, get to the final bit of the payoff of the curiosity loop by jumping on a quick call with us.

And it's not deceitful. There's no trickery. It is genuinely an email from Warren Buffett going, hey, can you jump on a quick call? I might have something to share. Like, hell yeah, I'll jump on a quick call. It's that, but obviously we're not Warren Buffett. So we need to increase curiosity. Yeah. We need to increase curiosity in other ways. So that's how the frameworks work. And that's kind of, as we go through buyer's journey, value proposition, building your prospecting list, sales cadences, call emails, all the way to upsells, demos, follow-up, closing, referrals. That's how it's all structured. So on the other one, and to kind of finish on this now, if you were to choose, because you have another book, I think it's 18 sales skills and personality trades.

If you were to choose one skill for a sales rep to focus on, right now, where we are, with context of where we are in the marketplace and everything else, what would you suggest that one skill being? It would be from the second book. So the first book is the sales process. If you follow that, you run through it, and it's free. It's on the website, over at sell.com. Just download it. It's there. If you follow that, you're going to have a baseline, almost inevitably, you're going to have a baseline level of success. You might not be the top performer. There are other variables that lead to that, right? But you're going to, and as long as your product isn't complete, as long as someone else in your organization is having success, you're going to have some success.

The second book is built upon a sales assessment that we put together four years ago. And it's constantly been iterated upon. It's constantly been refined. About 40,000 people have been through it now. We started off with 100, and I think it was 135 potential traits of high performance. And on the intro to the assessment, again, the assessment is free on the website, you can check it out, sell.com. It asks you your base salary, your OT, and what you achieved last year. So we can start to dissect which traits are kind of affiliated with people who have success and people who are not having success. And there were 15 that came out. One of them is just the ability to focus, just the ability to, I call it the caveman brain.

It's known as the, in the chimp paradox, it could be the chimp brain, it could be the reptile brain. But essentially how to turn off that part of your brain that goes, could you check my email? Or I might just see what's going on on Facebook. Or I got a real, you don't realize this, but this is what the brain's doing. I got a real dopamine spike when I went on LinkedIn and there was no notifications and there was no notifications and there's no, and now there's a notification because of someone I followed that I like on LinkedIn, made a post, I left a comment and they've responded to it. So the ability, so I'm an upper end of millennial, I'm 38, but the ability for everyone my age and younger just to be able to sit there and do the sodding work for a block of two hours, that is a differentiator.

If you can do that, you will out-compete all your peers, even if you're shit in sales, just because you'll have done more of most of the right stuff. So that for me is the big one. And that's when people come into our training program. That is one of the first things that I try and decipher. We get the assessment, I can see the results now back end, see where they are with things. But that is the first thing that I like to, the process you can learn is just to follow, tick the boxes, do that kind of stuff. But from a mindset perspective, from a personality traits perspective, that's the one thing that once you help someone get over that hurdle of being just constantly distracted, they then have a massive competitive advantage.

And that's only going to become a larger competitive advantage over time. Yeah, I agree. I was introduced to that way back when with Think and Grow Rich, right? No, I'm sorry, not Think and Grow Rich, a four-hour work week where it was like, you know, and I mean, he took it to the extreme, but when he was like, look, I got so, you know, buried with all the different things that I was doing. I put an auto responder on my email that I respond to emails and calls twice a day, once at 10 o'clock in the morning, once at four o'clock in the afternoon. If you need, you know, me before or after that, call my cell phone, nobody called his cell phone. And then, you know, he went all the way to four hours.

I'm like, yeah, okay, that's a little extreme, but it proves the point of focus and how much more efficient you can be because the brain doesn't actually, you know, the book myth of multitasking, right? Where the brain actually doesn't multitask, it just does task switching and it loses time between each one of those. Therefore, the more shit you do, the less focused you can be. So I think that's a good one because of that, mainly because of all the distractions that are coming at us now with the phone and the emails and alerts and all these different things. It's amazing from a psychology standpoint for me when I go on vacations, the one thing that gave me peace when I, because I would always like grab my phone and I would see the overdue notifications.

Fuck, there's 400 emails in my inbox right now. Like I got to at least go in and clean some of that shit up before I get home. Just turning off the alerts, literally just turning off alerts on all apps. My brain just felt so free that I was able to actually take a vacation and I was actually able to enjoy myself and not have anxiety every time I picked up my phone. So those are some good ones. I like it. Look, I don't have email on my phone. No, you don't. So two things, right? I don't have email on my phone and nobody has my number. Literally nobody. So I've had a bounty on, if you call, call me, I'll give you a thousand dollars. No questions asked, right? This has been good for 10 years. I've had the same number for 10 years.

Now at this point, someone will be able to find my number on, there'll be an invoice somewhere or something with it on. But still to this day, nobody has managed to call call me. I've had on my podcast, all the CEOs of all the big data companies, and they've all tried to like in the middle of the podcast, make a big proclamation of here's where it's done. No one's going right. It's always been trash data because it's just not out there. So the, you know, it still stands until the first person who does it, they could have, I'll begrudgingly give them the thousand dollars. That'll be the end of it. But yeah, you can't call me. If you want to communicate with me, it's email. It's not on my, I don't have email on my phone.

And so it'd be when I, whenever I log in onto the computer, which is probably once, twice a day because none, nothing that I'm doing is that time critical. It's not that urgent. So you just, you just outlined my out of office reply. My out of office reply and has been for years is, um, thanks for your email. Since I'm not an emergency room doctor, I'm guessing your email can wait until I get back. Thank you very much. And don't forget to smell the roses. That's literally every time. And almost every inevitably I get emails back from people being like, dude, thank you. Uh, you know what? It totally kind of get me to stop to realize that what is important and what isn't, right? Cause we get caught in this.

Everything's important. And really almost none of it is at the end of the day. So, so two, two things. My email responses, ultra responder is similar. It's, Hey, uh, if this is important, if this is urgent, please call my number. Then in brackets, you definitely don't have my mobile number. I'll speak to you on this date. That's my response. But then my, my, my wife is a, uh, geriatrician, a elderly medicine consultant here in the UK. She literally gets emails of, we need to speak to this family because you just had the cancer results and this period of time that we've got to communicate with them today because of this, right? Even she is told via the NHS in the UK that she shouldn't be, she shouldn't be checking her emails at night.

She shouldn't have it on, well, she can't get access to on her phone because it's all obviously secure and has to go through the, the, the VPN of the laptop that the NHS give her. But just salespeople are responding to stuff at like 11 o'clock at night to just, to what they feel, what they say is I'm getting it off my plate. I want to get that number down, but not really. It's, it's a serotonin dopamine loop that you, that's playing a game with you that you don't have to play. Just don't have it on your phone. Just put your phone to the other end of the house. If you, you know, turn it off. It should not, it's literally irrelevant. The goal is book means find people that you can help, help them.

If they're a good fit, ask for the business. If they don't, if they say no, when you're panicking, your pipeline is big enough. It's, I can't, if you, you're shaking your head as I say that, John, it is as legit, it's simple to say that more difficult to implement, but at a fundamental, so that is it. Yeah. I'm a dude, I'm right there with you. I'm a keep it simple, stupid guy. Like don't overcomplicate this shit. Somebody has a problem, figure out what it is. If you've got a solution that can solve it, have a conversation, ask some questions, be curious, call it a day. You know what I mean? Like don't try to screw anybody over at the end of the day. Like if you're, if you, if you kind of follow those guidelines, you'll be pretty successful and you have to be willing to put in the work too.

So that's, that's the part of, of the work ethic. There's, there is no hack to work ethic in my opinion. So awesome. Well, we could keep talking sales all day long, man. I'd love to dive into the other 18 sales skills and 15 other strategies, but in the interest of wrapping this up within the hour here, uh, you said you got a bunch of free resources and you're just doing some cool shit. So talk to people where they can find out more information about you, what you're doing and, uh, and how you want people to contact you. So forget about me. Everything that I do is available over at sales.com. The both books are there. The assessment is there. There's a free community there. Everything I know, and you've probably learned from you consciously and vicariously by the podcast you've done with me, John.

So I appreciate that mate over the years and the, the bits of advice you've given me, training and a business and other things, but the evidence available on sales.com head over there. If you need help implement to get any of it, we've got our academy program, but you'll, you'll, you'll know if you're a good fit for that. But for everyone else, it's all free. It's all there. Just go and grab it, gobble it up and, um, you know, go, go and from the basis of our conversation, simplify the process and go, go make a shit ton of money and live a good life. Well, and help out as many people as you can along the way. Right. Yep. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming back on, man. I really appreciate it. It was fun catching up.

Let's make sure that we don't spend another 10 years before we have another conversation on this one. All right. Cause who knows what the fuck's going to happen in 10 years. I can't even look with two years out at this point. So let's, let's try to make this a little bit more frequent if you don't mind. Perfect. Cheers, John. Awesome. Thanks. And everybody, hopefully you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I said, all the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, you go out to make somebody smile. You know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much.

And I'll see you on the other side. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day, just like you go to jbarrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today. Let's all level up and make this happen together.