223: Robbie Crabtree on Persuasive Speaking in Sales from a Trial Lawyer

What's poppin' y'all, it's your man James Say What Sales Buckley, and this is your weekly dose of Make It Happen Mondays with your host, John Barrows. Big shout out to all our partners, SalesLoft, Proposify, Gong, Vidyard, Chili Piper, Intro Hive, and Salesforce Sales Cloud. JBSales is a game changer for you, the seller. So join us on the dark side and invest in yourself to become a member today and access all our courses, trainings, tips, and techniques that immediately impact your pipeline and results. Become a member today at ondemand.jbarrows.com. Today, we welcome Robbie Crabtree. As a former attorney, Robbie got comfortable speaking in front of crowds. He's worked both sides of the attorney fence, so persuasive speaking is literally what he's been trained to do.

We speak to buyers. Can you imagine convincing jurors? Big difference. Now, Robbie spends his time working to help visionary leaders become great speakers through his company, Performative Speaking. So, court is now in session. Let's give it to Judge Barrows and let Robbie make his opening statements. Make it happen. Good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrows. Make it happen Monday. Hopefully, you had a fantastic weekend. Mine was cool. I went to an Indian wedding for the first time, which was pretty much one of the coolest weddings I've ever been to. And then got to do some cool stuff. Went to a Bruins game, even though they lost. So, I was a little pissed off about that. But we're back in game here, and I am very interested to talk to our guest today for multiple reasons.

One is because this podcast got rescheduled. We're going to dive into that. But also, just because of his background and where he's coming from and how it applies to sales. So, Robbie Crabtree, Performance Speaking founder, how are you, my friend? I'm great, John. Super excited to be here. Love that Indian wedding bit. I bet that's a lot of fun. I can't wait to hear more about that. But just excited to be here and talk with you today. Yeah, it was a really interesting experience. I've been to a ton of weddings before, but I've never been to an Indian wedding. And it was a last-minute thing. My neighbor is Indian. And they had been having this, I guess it's like a week-long thing where they just party all week.

And then they, you know, comes with the ceremony and then the reception. And they invited us kind of last minute. They were like, oh, we haven't seen you all week. So, could you come? We were like, ah, screw it. We ain't got to do anything on Saturday night. My wife and I, or my wife and her friend went and got these, I guess they're called saris or soris, soris, which is kind of their dresses. So, they went and actually got those. Thankfully, my neighbor, my friend and I did not go get the Indian garb for males because we have some Indian friends and we asked like, hey, and they're like, no, don't do that. Most Indian guys are going to be wearing suits. So, thank God, because we were going to go get all dressed up in that and we would have been the only ones there looking like that and probably offended a lot of people.

But when I tell you that party started and didn't end until like four o'clock in the morning and they were on the dance floor the entire time, it was absolutely bananas. So, if you ever get a chance to go to one, go to one because they're a blast. That's amazing. That's, I think, the beautiful part about the world opening back up again, right, is having experiences like that. It's just, it's so nice to hear things like that. And I bet it was an absolute wonderful time. Yeah, it was super fun. On the flip side of that, on not so wonderful time, before we get into kind of the background of the lawyer, you got to tell, you got to tell the audience here what happened last week. Because we had this scheduled last week for you to come on and I get this email.

Hey, John, maybe can we push this back maybe an hour or so? Because something happened right outside my hotel. So, you want to give us like a brief little background there and then we'll dive into the topic today. Sure. So, you know, I sent that email because I'm a big fan of the quote by Mike Tyson, where he says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Love it. Yeah. As we get into kind of my background, it will make more sense because it's really kind of the philosophy I've always lived with. But I felt like I've been punched in the mouth because the night before at 1137, I woke up and I immediately started hearing this popping noise. And I go, oh, those are gunshots and those gunshots are close.

And it went through the normal progression where it's like gunshots, silence, screams, sirens. But the sirens were so far away. And about three minutes later, it ended up pop, pop, pop, where there were multiple guns firing at the same time. And again, very close. I knew his handguns and like, I just, I didn't know what's going on because I'm in Miami. I'm down at South beach. I'm traveling there. I'm just hanging out because I knew people down there. And here I'm in a hotel. I can't get any information and just gunshots. So it ended up where it was, you know, a crime scene, essentially like surround my entire hotel was just surrounded with crime scene tape. I went out onto my balcony the next morning.

I looked down and there's show casings littered like right underneath my, my window and balcony. And so we also lost power at the hotel. So like, not only could I not get out of the hotel, I didn't have power. And that's why I was like, John, can we just like push this back an hour? Like there was a 40 shot shootout that happened like right below me last night. And, uh, the police aren't letting me leave. So it was a wild experience, but always go with me. No one luckily died in the, in the shootout. There were some injuries, but, uh, it was definitely some flashbacks to a past life that I've been a part of. Jesus, that is fucking bananas. I, and you don't know how you're going to react in those situations either.

Right? Like when you hear that, do you hide, do you look, do you do something about it? Like those are, it's, you always, you hear the fight or flight stuff, right? And it's one of those things where you hope in the moment that something like that happens to you, that, that you do the right thing, whatever that right thing is at that moment. And I think at that moment, it sounds like the right thing to do is just duck and cover and get the fuck away from the window. Right? Yeah. It's you, you hear it and you immediately go into that moment of like, you know, I've got options. What, like, what's the best one. And you're trying to make that quick decision of like, what do I do in this situation?

And, you know, honestly, I think I was fortunate in my position that my background basically had trained me in like what I need to do in that situation. So I felt pretty, pretty calm in the face of chaos, even though like it was absolute chaos that was going on. That's fucking crazy. So, so we'll, so let's transition that to your background and say, cause give the audience a little, little taste of where you're coming from on this and why that was so relevant for what, for where you are right now. Yeah. So I'm a trial lawyer and, uh, over, over the past seven years of my career, I tried 102 jury trials and that was murders, capital murders and child abuse cases. So with either prosecutor or the defendant.

So I did both, I did the first hundred as a prosecutor and the last two as a defense attorney. And it was that world. Like, I mean, I just watched videos. I saw videos. I would go out and work with, you know, ATF, DEA. So like, I knew the sounds, I knew like the training, I understood what I was looking for and listening to. So in that world, luckily in that moment, I kind of, I just went back to my training, right. And it was kind of like, Hey, I know what happens if, if basically, you know, things are going down and you need to get the hell away and stay safe. So that's kind of, kind of what helped, but, uh, that background of, of jury trials and all my friends in law enforcement train me well.

That is bananas, man. So, so let's talk, cause, cause now you're performative speaking, right? So you founded performative speaking, what, back in 2018? Yeah. So what, what, first of all, I'm curious, did you always want to be a lawyer when you were a kid? And then after you got into the lawyer, what made the switch between being a lawyer to a speaking coach effectively? Yeah. So really what it comes down to is that I always want to be a lawyer. The answer is no. I always wanted to be a professional baseball player, but guess what? It wasn't good enough to do that. And then you go to college and you figure out, I've got to do something with my life. What am I good at? I'm good at debating. I'm good at putting pieces together.

I'm good at talking. So let's go find out how the rules work, who writes the rules and then start using them. So that was what led me to law school and ultimately to becoming a trial lawyer. And what happened there, John, in all honesty, is I realized if I became a trial lawyer, there aren't many of them. And if I could hit a hundred jury trials, I would put myself in basically the top 1% of 1% of the U S which is a skill that can leverage. Like we can move that outside of the legal world and say, I can help other people with this. And I always had that in mind when I was in law school. Like I can, I can turn this into something. If we go to 2018, the reason I made that transition was one, I was coaching the national mock trial team at SMU law school during that time and teaching persuasive speaking.

So there started to be this signal of like, oh, the skills I've learned as a trial lawyer actually resonate with students. And then it started resonating with entrepreneurs and founders and salespeople who are coming to me and saying, Robbie, can you help me with this world? Because I saw you in trial and I want to be like that. And that's what led to, to this kind of change. And then the truth is what kind of happens as a trial lawyer, you have this decision to make. You either become desensitized to everything so you can live in that world. And I said, that's not, that's not how I want to live my life. Or you stay and keep feeling, but you let that world kind of eat you. And all you see is evil everywhere.

And I said, that's not the world I want to live in either. So I said, being a lawyer is all about minimizing risk. And I said, that's not a fun world to live in. I want to find a way to maximize rewards. And I said, the way to do that is to get out of this legal world and work with founders, salespeople, entrepreneurs who are trying to do really interesting things and move and deliver value to other people instead of just trying to prevent the nightmare. I love that, man. Yeah. And I, I, I always think about that, you know, lawyers and you literally, I mean, to your point, you either get desensitized to it and you're just numb to it or you let it eat you. And eventually it's got to tear you apart.

It's the same thing with, you know, I was thinking about the same thing with like news anchors and stuff like that. It's like, how can you constantly every day we'd be reporting on this shit that's happening or every day seeing the worst of humanity? I like, you, you just got to be a different type of person to be able to handle that. And I mean, unless I'm wrong. I mean, I agree with you. And I think it's just, you get to a point where you, you have to make that decision of, of how you want to live your life long-term. And I think for seven years, I was, was thrilled to do it. Like love that work. It was honestly like, it is dark and, and brutal and like stressful, but it's also really impactful.

And honestly, like, this is kind of the piece that not everyone would agree with, but like it is, it was fun to me. Like you're playing, you're using game theory and human psychology and storytelling and sales and persuasion. Like basically you're in this lab environment doing all these really high leverage kind of skills in truly life or death situations. Like the last case I tried was as a defense attorney. It was a murder case where I was saying he acted in self-defense. It was on video and killing his brother. And I was trying to defend him and get him to go home to his family and be found not guilty. Wow. Yeah. I mean, so it's, it's like fun. And then you layer on that, like, these are real world consequences here for these people.

Like they're either going to go in jail for the rest of their lives or whatever it's going to be. So it's, you know, it kind of puts things into perspective when it comes to sales. It's like, if I don't lose this, if I lose this deal, oh, fucking well, I mean, at least I'm going home and I'm still sleeping at night. Yeah. I mean, it is, it's the nice thing, right? Like, I think if we started looking at it that way, yeah. Sales, making money, doing these things are important. But at the end of the day, like we all get to go home. We have families, we have friends, and we're still going to get to go home to those people. And that's kind of the beautiful part. And that trial lawyer, part of me, like that, that last case, luckily I did win that case and he was found not guilty of that murder and got to go home to his family.

But I mean, I've never felt such just like weight on my shoulders of like this man who I think should be going home could go to prison for the rest of his life, which is what the prosecutors wanted. If I fail, like if I don't sell my jury that I'm right, don't persuade them. Like it's somebody else's life who's ruined and not just his, his family's too. So it's, it's heavy, but, but sales, sales are heavy too. Like it's just a different heavy. It's yeah. Again, it's all relative, right? I mean, the, what I'm interested in, we'll get into this, but I'm interested in, you know, you're learning lessons from being a lawyer to sales. And I'm curious when it comes to a jury, uh, beginning, middle end, like what's the most is, is like to set the stage, to let people know what's coming or the content that's in the middle of it or the closing.

Do you put equal weighting on all three of those when you go in, uh, or do you, there's one more important than the other? So I think if you screw up the beginning, you don't have a chance anyways. So like, if we're going to say like, what's the most important part, the beginning, because you can, you can lose it all right there. So that's like discovery. That's like discovery and sales, right? Like if you fuck up the discovery, if you don't do the right discovery, the rest of the sales damn near impossible, or you're just basically going to play a discount game or anything like that. So it sounds like it's similar where you got to do, well, in your case, the presentation of the, of the story, if you will, the arc.

And then, but on the sales side of the house, it's like that first interaction, that first impression, that first conversation. If you don't get the right information or make that right impression, the rest of it's almost irrelevant. A hundred percent. Like, I mean, this is why when I talk about speaking, like the hook I say is your most important thing, because that's the moment you get people to listen to you. And, you know, from, from this idea of, of sales, right. Too, it's not just like, like the prospecting. Yeah. Like you've got to nail that you've got to do the discovery and the research and nail that. And then that first interaction, like that's where we got to start understanding these principles of like persuasion, how we set the stage.

And one of my favorite ones I would always use is this promise principle, right? It's, it's what Cialdini calls consistency, that consistency principle. And in a jury selection, I essentially make every person on that jury who could potentially be on my, my panel of 12 deciding the case, give me a promise and say, when I prove that this person is guilty, or when I prove that they're not guilty, that you will find them guilty or not guilty. And I make every person say yes to me, because then you're setting up that, that finish and that closing, when you bring it back to me and say, look, each of you 12 made a promise to me that when I did this thing, you would, you would follow suit and I did it.

Now it's your turn to say true to your word. And so like, it's really this chess game that you're basically playing early on and setting it up. So you can then get to the reveal and the content. And at the end to get that. Yes. Are you familiar with Sandler? Sandler sales training? No, I'm not. Sorry, John. So no, the reason I bring it up is because that's like, they, there, there's this tactic that they have, which is called the upfront contract, right? Which it sounds like exactly what this is. And the, the, the way it works is, you know, Hey Robbie, you know, thanks for your time today. Here's a few things I want to make sure that we hit on today during our call. What else do you want to make sure that we cover?

Great. Hey, if we cover those things, Robbie, usually the next step is to bring your executive in and those type of things. So let me ask you, if we were to address all those things that you just brought up, would you feel comfortable then taking the next steps with us? So you actually say that before you do anything, you get the client to commit to that. And then basically the close is pretty much closes itself. Cause then at the end you're like, Hey, did we address all those things? Okay. Now the next step is, so it's actually an easier way to set up the close and, and kind of tie it back together to say, this is what you told me you wanted to hear and you, and you heard it. So now we have, we pretty much have to move forward here and you committed to that.

So that's a similar concept there. I like it. Uh, you brought up Cialdini. So Cialdini, it sounds like Cialdini and, uh, and our good friend, um, Chris Voss are two of your, uh, two of your favorites. It sounds like, right. I mean, it's hard to, to live in the world of persuasion and, and, and not be like a Cialdini fan, right? Like you've, you've got to study, you've got to understand this stuff. And I think he does it so well. And honestly, I'll tell you this, like early on, like, and I bet most salespeople are probably the same way early on is, is we think we just like have it. We think people are just going to like, listen to us and we don't study, we don't master that craft. And I thought the same thing.

And it was like my eighth jury trial when I, when I lost and I overheard the jury actually tell the defendant something. And they said, we know you were guilty. You know, you were guilty, but we felt and believed you when you said you, you felt sorry. And we wanted to give you a second chance. And like that changed kind of my entire perspective where I was like, oh, so being right. Isn't enough. Like giving logic and reason is enough. That's what led me down this path to study it. Right. And that, and then you get to Chris Voss and like negotiation and tactical empathy and all these ideas, very similar to the world I lived in as a trial lawyer with negotiation, these, what I call tactical discussions.

And I think we've got to study these other people, like learn from the best, embrace them, curate the things that make sense to you, and then use them in the most, you know, ethical sales way possible. Like these, I think principles sometimes get a bad rap because they can be seen as like manipulating or coercing, but they're not like their persuasion. That's what the world is. We live in the age of persuasion. Let's embrace them. And I think that's a, I think that's the key there is manipulation versus influence. And that's why I love why he wrote the book influence, not manipulation. Cause you can manipulate, I mean, if you get really good at it, you can, and you can use those powers for evil, if you will.

Um, but if you use them for the right way, we need to influence because I tell people all the time, look, the prospect doesn't always know what they need. You know what I mean? They always, they, they haven't made this decision before. If they did, they've made it maybe once or twice, right? You help them make it every day. So, so you need to get a, you know, find ways of opening up their eyes in a certain, to a certain degree and getting them in some cases to feel something versus the facts. I mean, it couldn't be more obvious with where we are in our kind of macroeconomic situation that facts really don't fucking matter at all anymore. Like they literally have, I mean, you could put a laundry list of facts up on a wall and people are going to say, nope, those aren't true.

And it's like, no, there's actual data here that says it, but, but it's because they have this deep seated emotion or, or connection to something that they can't let go. So, so talk to me about some of that because, uh, you know, I want to take this in the realm of, of, of sales, but I do also want to dive in a little bit towards that dug in, you know, and I don't care what side, let's talk politics for two seconds here. I don't care what side, but it seems like right now, and I'm going to relate to this to sales, but that when you're dug in on a belief system, for whatever reason, your parents, uh, the society, what you've been, what news articles you read and what news mediums you come to when you and I are coming from two completely different perspectives, Robbie, and I am dug in with this deep belief system that has nothing to do with facts.

How do you peel that layer onion back to, to start getting to a real conversation where we can come to some type of middle ground here? You know, I'll, I'll, first off, start it. Yeah. Some people, it's just not going to be possible. Like let's first like just acknowledge that some people aren't going to now for the ones that can though. I think we always need to open with something that's agreeable when we're talking to them. Like, let's show that we're not about to just like go after each other. We're going to say, look, John, I agree with you on this, this, and this, like, we're not here to say that we disagree on everything. Like, in fact, I think we share a lot of the same opinions. We just have this one that we kind of, you know, are on different pages with, and I'd love to kind of explore that.

And then I think what we're doing is when we're talking about an issue, sometimes we attack the person and sometimes we attack that it's your opinion or your stance. Change that to the stance. The stance I hear you talking about here is this. Now, by simply changing that you're to the stance, it is no longer their personal identity. We can't get people to change if they feel like they're under attack. So we've got to do everything to essentially create the most welcoming environment possible when it comes to this persuasion and speaking to people in this way. So we do it by that. And we do it a lot by showing them we're listening. It seems like you're saying this to me or what I hear from you is this.

And what you're going to start getting them to do is saying, yeah, that's right. And as any salesperson knows, as soon as someone starts saying that's right, or yes, and starts nodding with you, now you've got some room to start moving. And so now you're starting to frame the issue, frame the conversation in a way that takes it the direction you want to, but the other person is saying that's right. And I agree with you. So how does that compare to Chris Voss is hunting for the no, right? So there's getting to yes, where you get kind of these yeses and you pre, you know, and all of a sudden, and in sales, you know, the theory is you're preconditioned somebody to say yes at the end. But in a lot of ways, there's buyer's remorse there because you're getting me to say to yes to all these kind of like obvious, but no bullshit, you know, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Okay. But then, uh, uh, versus Chris, where he says, no, you want to embrace the no first because now I feel more confident. So how do you apply that in that scenario? So I do want to get no's too, because I want to, and this is where we're going to say, you know, the, the stance that I'm taking on this is this thing. And, and what, what is kind of your, your response to that? And they're going to say, I don't agree with that for this is in this reason. Now we've started to frame what is our core, like what's our core difference. And we can start talking about that. Okay. And I think we want to acknowledge that. Okay. I hear you say that, John, like, I appreciate that perspective and really just want to explore that a little bit deeper with you.

Right. And this idea that like, Hey, I appreciate that perspective. And I want to explore, explore is an easy way to be like, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just trying to have this conversation. How do we get to a middle ground? We make it a conversation, not a debate, not an argument, not a, who's going to win, who's going to be right. It's, Hey, let's really like explore this, this topic together and see where we end up. And you know what, one easy way for you as the speaker to open the other person up is to show them that you're willing to change your stance a little bit as they're talking. Maybe they say a point and you're like, ah, that's a really good point. Like I agree with you right there.

And I hadn't thought about it before. Now they're opening up where you can start leading them down to agreeing with you. Because if we go back to these principles, reciprocity is once we give something to somebody, they want to give it back to us. So now we're starting to move closer to that middle ground. So do you have to, do you come into our, so this is interesting from a lawyer standpoint, because you have to go into with the, with the, you know, belief that your client is not guilty, right? So let's use that as a premise, but it almost feels like you in sales, cause it's not as consequential, if you will, that you might have to go in with the belief that maybe your solution isn't the best one, right?

Cause if you go in with the, I have the right solution before doing any discovery or anything like that, you're not leaving room for that conversation. Whereas you almost have, cause I've made a switch a long time ago in my career to, instead of qualifying people, I've started, I've actually disqualified. I look for disqualification. I look for all the reasons why you shouldn't do business with me. And, and that builds a shitload of credibility because I'll just be like, actually, you know what, Robbie, this isn't where we're, we're actually not good there. And what you're telling me right now, it doesn't feel like we're a perfect fit. And it's almost like this reverse psychology where somebody comes at me, but I have to come in with the mentality that I'm not the right fit for everybody.

So I can't have that stake in the ground. Is that the mentality we should have in sales? And then I'd love to explore that with you to talk about how that applies from being a lawyer, where you have to be definitive about the fact that, you know, your client, well, you're trying to prove that your client is, is not guilty. Yeah. So I think it, in terms of the sales perspective, it's totally right. I think the approach is we're trying to see and make sure that person's a good fit to work with us to, for our product, for our service, whatever it may be. And what you're looking for are reasons that they're not so that you can tell them you're just not, you're not at the right point. Maybe you are earning enough.

Maybe you're too junior in your career. Maybe the solution that you need actually, like, we could give you 60%, but there's actually one I know that's going to give you a hundred percent. For instance, I do this a lot where I talk to people and they're not at the level that they need me yet. Right. They're just trying to reduce like, ums and uhs and likes and simple things like that. Go to Toastmasters. Yeah. And I go, well, or even like, go get an app like Ori that will basically work through that for you. It's a whole lot less expensive. It's going to do exactly what you want. Like that's a better fit for you. And I can't tell you how many people I have sent to like other programs or other services and been like, you don't need me.

I'm not the right fit. And that gets you a ton of credibility. And that is the approach we should be taking is essentially like, I'm going to go in saying like, I know I have a great solution, but I don't know that it is the solution for you. And that's what we're going to like, well, you need that confidence of like, I can deliver value, but I've got to make sure that that value is delivered to you and you're the right person. So in terms of being a lawyer, even when you're going in to say somebody is not guilty, you're not oftentimes going in and saying this person didn't do it. You're testing the waters and trying to find reasons why what the other side is saying isn't, isn't correct. Right?

Like you're trying to essentially find like, where is it that I can say, no, they just didn't, they didn't meet this part of the case. They didn't prove that he had the intent to do this. And in fact, that's essentially what, what I attacked. I didn't attack the entire thing. I, in that murder trial, I just told you, I didn't say that he was not guilty because he didn't kill his brother. Like I said, his intent was different. And that's what I was arguing. And then what I was doing. So how was I trying to get the information out there to start saying like, this is why he's not guilty, even though he killed his brother. And it was talking to police officers on the stand about how long they get to give a statement after they, a police officer involved shooting.

It was setting up hypotheticals about like, you know, what they would have done in a situation. If a, somebody was acting in the way that this, you know, the victim in this case had acted. And what you're doing is you're getting a lot of these pieces in place so that you can then say, look at all these things that show like guilty is not the right fit here. Maybe you don't love the, not guilty, but guilty isn't the right fit. So I can tell you that's not the one that you're going with. Gotcha. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I can see the parallels here of, of searching for that common ground. I mean, again, beyond a reasonable doubt, right? That's, that's the whole thing there. So you have at least to lean on that and that's what you're kind of going in with the mentality around and where, where sales, I think it, it was a very distinct shift for me to, to start thinking about disqualifying versus qualifying.

And it was weird how it shifted the whole paradigm for me selling because, you know, pipeline and all that other stuff, obviously you're a lot more desperate when you don't have it, but when you know, you're good and you know, you're good for the right people. And then you try to find that fit, you know, I bet you, I don't, you probably don't know the percentage, like I don't, but I bet you there's a strong percentage of those people that you did refer to whatever other service it was that have eventually come back to you when they are at the right level. Right. A hundred percent. Like, I mean, I'm working with, with one right now and we met back in March and I was like, you're just, you're not ready yet.

And I'll like, if you want to come back, I'll tell you when you are, but I, and they were ready to sign up and ready to pay and do all this sort of stuff. And it was no, no, no. You're like, you're not there. I'm not taking your money to work with you because this isn't the right fit. And like you said, even it's really interesting when you do this, this model and you tell somebody, Hey, it's not the right time. They actually oftentimes work harder. Yeah. They try to convince you now. Yeah. Are trial lawyers really the new standard for persuasive speaking? It's crazy to think that that's true, but it makes total sense. If you think about how we play our respective roles as salespeople, it takes a special speaker to convince jurors to take action in a short period of time.

Also we impact businesses, but lawyers are literally impacting people's life and death situations. This conversation is super meta, but the perspective is so key. I want to hear from you, our listeners. So if you have a sales win that you'd like to share or a tough loss that you learned a lesson from, I need you to share that story with me. You can send it to James at jbarrows.com to be highlighted on next week's episode of make it happen Mondays with John Barrows today. I want to give a huge shout out to our friends at glow Fox. They've recently become JB sales members and are getting ready to change the game for their sales team. Welcome to the family glow Fox. James Murphy and I go way back.

We've had a couple of dinners together and the man truly understands what it is to grow and develop your skillsets. We go back a long way and it's a pleasure to do these live Q and a sessions with teams like glow Fox that sign up to be members of JB sales on demand. We talked about cold calling emails, trajectory, and much, much more. Are you ready to sign up and become a member of JB sales to get your team onto our training? Learn how to become a member today at on demand.jbarrows.com. Let's get the closing arguments in with Robbie and see where the verdict lands. It's like that walk away close, that psychology around the, uh, you know what? It doesn't look like, right? Whoa, wait a minute.

You don't want my business. No, no, no. And I always say this to people. It's like, no, I want your business. I just don't need it. And so it, and I don't, and in today's world with as many reviews that are out there and G2 crowd and you know, you name it, like the one me doing average work is, is actually a bad thing for both of us. Like I'll give you something that you, that will solve your needs and you'll probably like it in some way, shape or form, but it's not going to be a holy shit experience. And I can't afford to not give you a holy shit experience for the amount of money I'm charging you right now, because if you give me a three-star review out of five, all of a sudden I get knocked off the top list from a G2 crowd standpoint.

And now all of a sudden nobody's paying attention anymore, that type of stuff. So talk to me a little bit. I want to get some tactical stuff here and I'm going to be selfish on this one for my, let's talk about speaking. Right. Uh, you know, I used to, before COVID go all over the place to crowds and, you know, stand up and do keynotes and stuff like that. And, and what I've always struggled with is to your point, that hook, right? Like that, that, that intro, like, uh, Seth Godin, he almost always walks in telling a story. He just, he just, you know, as, as I was coming into, he doesn't even say hello to everybody. He doesn't say, hi, I'm Seth Godin. I mean, obviously I think my, everybody who's there knows who Seth Godin is, but he'll, he'll just, you know, as I was coming in today, blah, blah, blah.

And he kind of draws you right in. And I've tried to do that before and it, you know, it kind of landed, it didn't. And so I've played around with different ways outside of just kind of quick little background. Here we go. And then let's dive into it. What are some ways that from a speaker standpoint, so let's table sales for a second here. And now you're the CEO, you're an entrepreneur, you're whatever you're speaking in front of a crew or let's bring it to sales. And you're a sales rep now sitting in front of a boardroom of 10 executives that you now have to impress. What's the, what's a framework we can think about for an intro to get them like, Oh shit, I should pay attention to the rest of this as opposed to pick up my iPhone and start playing with it.

Yeah. I mean, the first piece is always think about like who your audience is. That that's the main thing, right? We've got to figure out where they're at and where we want them to take, like where we want to take them. And then we build that bridge. Right. And that hook is so important. So whether you're in a sales room and giving a presentation or up on a keynote stage, there's a couple of ways that you can hook people pretty easily. I think you, you mentioned one, John is walking in and just telling that story, but that's not everyone's strength. Some people are great at just walking and telling that story right away. I am not like, I am a fan of just going directly into it. I don't think we need an intro.

I don't think we need a bio. In fact, I think that actually comes after your hook. If you want to go into it, you essentially set up the cliffhanger, but how do we start it? There's a couple of ways that I love for both situations you brought up. One is asking a question that is going to relate to the person you're talking to. But when you ask that question, you need to be confident enough to ask it and let it sit to make them actually think about it. What happens on a lot of hooks when somebody starts with a question is they say the question, just like rush to the next point. When you ask a question, everyone is going to understand it's a question. They are supposed to answer it. You have to give them time to answer it in their head so they can start doing the work for you to prepare for why is John asking me this question?

What is he about to do for me? The next one is imagine language. Anytime that you start by saying imagine and then set the scene, that person is going to imagine exactly what you're talking about. Now, we all know when it comes to sales, people move into sales because they can see what the future looks like if they purchase this thing. Their life gets better because they have this. So if we can start setting that imagine, you can do imagine as what happens if they don't do something. You can also do imagine language as to what happens if they do something. Now, generally speaking, what happens if they don't is a more powerful persuasion tactic than is what you'll get if you do. But that's an easy way to do it as well.

The other one, like you said, could be a story and it might be a personal story, John, but it can also be a story from the perspective of somebody that is like their client is somebody like them that allows them to feel like they're in the story because it's either somebody directly applicable to what they care about or it's them themselves. And so that's another great way. The fourth one I'll give and that will kind of be the last one is to use some sort of what I call an Easter egg. And an Easter egg is just like you would see in like a Marvel movie or movies where it's a call, like it's a call out. It's a reference to something else. So I love opening with things like what's not going to change in the next 10 years, right?

That is a call out. You could do, you know, the only way, like we can't connect the dots when we're looking forward. We can only connect the dots when we're looking backwards. That's Steve Jobs, right? We can start to do these pieces that are call outs. So if your audience is in that world is going to immediately start being like, I've heard this before, like this is speaking to me in some way. So Easter eggs are really nice. It can be a quote. It could be like a little antidote. It could be something along those lines that resonates with your audience because you've done your research. Again, this goes back to that preparation, that opening, you know that their hero is Steve Jobs. So you're going to use a Steve Jobs, think differently, right?

And all of a sudden they're bought in because you're like, this guy is speaking to me, to the things that I like. I love it. Yeah. Cause I, cause that to me is, I think you're right. The, I, you know, the, the, the middle, it's almost, you know, speech one-on-one, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, then tell them what you told them. But it's almost like that middle is if, if you were to pick the three pieces, the beginning and the end are the most important. What's in the middle is kind of interesting, but it's, it's how you set it and how you let the, how you leave it so that how do they feel when they're walking away and what are they're going to remember? So let's talk about that.

Like, how do you say you do a half hour, 45 hour long presentation in front of a group of people. And you've talked a lot about, you know, technical details of your product and solution and all this different stuff, but what's the, you always want to leave them feeling good, right? But feeling good and remembering something that'll help you stand out versus everybody else. How do you make that impact? So when we think about even a 30 minute speech, so it could be a five minute speech, it could be a 30, it could be an hour. I don't care. You need to figure out what your, what I call it, your theme is. It is your one central idea to your entire talk. If we think about it in speaking terms, it would be like Martin Luther King's, I have a dream.

I can say, I have a dream and you know exactly what talk I'm referencing. You know exactly what the purpose was behind that talk. You may not know another sentence, another word in that entire speech, but you remember, I have a dream and what it stood for. When you're delivering a big talk or even a small talk, if you can, you want your theme to be so memorable that they remember it when they leave. They remember how you made them feel with that finish or what I call a dismount. And they remember the one central idea. And that one central idea needs to make you stand out. That needs to be the thing that is intriguing to them that they just can't stop thinking about. It is one of like, that is where I probably spend honestly the most time.

Anytime I deliver a talk is what is my theme and how can I make that the most memorable. And this means you need to be coming up with something that is catchy in some way. So think of like a tagline, think of rhyming, think of rule of three, think of these pieces that are going to make it essentially stand out. And then this is where delivery plays such an important role too, because how we deliver our talk, we can create music with the way we speak. And if we create what I call musicality as a speaker, that's using dynamics and different ranges, building cadence and rhythm into your talk. It essentially triggers a different part of your brain where it triggers the creative part and allows people to remember more of your talk because of the way you deliver it.

If we think about it right in music, you can remember music lyrics years after you've last heard the song. Because of that musicality, it triggers our creative side of our brain. As speakers too often, we think I just need to deliver the message, but you don't. You need to deliver the feeling. The message will be remembered if you hit that feeling. Gotcha. Do you subscribe to summarizing? So there's the exit of how you make them feel, but then there's the summarizing, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them what you told, you know, and then tell them what you told them type of thing. Do you believe in the, hey, we just had a 30 minute conversation. Let me boil this down to you for like the three main components before.

Is that part of the, the, the end of what you want them to feel? Or is that a preamble to how you want to make them feel? So that'd be a preamble that I would consider part of repetition, right? Part of that rhetorical device that we use when we're, when we're in this oratory moment. And that is so that they can remember and you distill it down to the main takeaways. Now, this also comes back to a concept I love, which I call looping, right? And you've, you've, other people have certainly heard this where you open a loop and you leave it there and then you close it at the end. By doing that, essentially, when you close a loop that you started very early on and you close it towards the end, it makes the audience remember what you said at the beginning, because they, they see that time and they're like, Oh, like, I remember John talked about this at the beginning and now it all makes sense to me.

And it becomes very sticky to them because you've basically demonstrated that this entire talk had a structure and a plan in place. And it makes them realize that you were in complete control the entire time. And it plays into kind of this repetition as well. And so just all these pieces come in and then you deliver that big dismount, that big finish that makes them feel some way when they leave and they remember your theme and remember kind of like how great your delivery was. Yeah. And I think I've, I've kind of subconsciously done that with my, my training presentations. It's funny because it's a long arc, right? It used to be a full day of eight hours of me starting here and then ending, but now it's cut up into three, two hour chunks.

And I start with this death of the average sales rep and the science versus the art of sales and all this other stuff, and then go through and I'm talking science and all these different things and how to elevate. And at the end, even visually, I show the same slide, the death of the average sales rep slide and how it, you know, how science can help us evolve. And it, and it feels like it wraps it kind of all together there. Um, and I'm, I'm curious, like, you know, from a sales presentation, cause I think a lot of people out there right now, you know, they, they freak out when they're about to present to executives. They, they, they really do. They, it's like, Oh my God, I, you know, I've done my discovery.

I have this information. I have the three to four people in the room that I know I need to impress here. And a lot of them go into the show up and throw up or just kind of conversation, but then there's no structure to it. And without structure, executives will take it wherever they want. And so like, is there like a format you give to executives, entrepreneurs, people like that, that says, Hey, if you have, if you're doing a pitch for funding or something like that, here's the structure that you need to follow, do this, do this, do this, have your theme, but then make sure this, this, this are hit when you do that. Yeah, for sure. So I'll break down kind of two frameworks that work within each other.

So there's like my more broad framework that I call the performative speaking framework. That's like what I focus everything through. And it's essentially a five, five-part framework. You go through what's your goal. And the goal is not the outcome. It's a step before the outcome, right? Is the sale. The goal is like, what are they going to leave thinking that hopefully will get them to that outcome. Step two is what, like, what emotion do you want them to feel? And we're going to define that. Then we're going to go into what I call the three tactical parts of this framework. And it's what's your hook, what's your theme and what's your dismount. Once we have that framework done, now we go into what I would call like the three, like the three Ps for a pitch.

You're going to open with your hook. Then the first P is going to be your purpose. That's your problem solution. What's going on there. Then you're going to go into the passion, why you care, why your company cares, and why you're the right fit to not only solve it now, but to continue solving it going forward. And then the last bit is the potential, what it looks like going forward for that person. Not just like, Hey, we've got this problem and solution that we can fix. It's the potential of where this leads to them to grow towards or why you as the person trying to get funding potentially, why you're going to continue to grow. Like how do you become a 10 X company instead of where you are right now?

These, these are the routes. We're going to be able to expand into this, this, and this area that allows us to grow. And then at the end, we hit with our dismount and that's where we get out. So it's really kind of that, that process and you play within both these frameworks and keeps you focused. And that theme that we talked about is your North star. And when you're talking about structure, this is why that theme and that dismount are so important. Your theme is your North star that you just continue to look towards. When an executive tries to get you off track, look to your North star, bring it back, bring it back. And then your dismount tells you where you want to end. So with your North star as your guide and your dismount as your end, you know how to get home.

That's kind of the beauty and having that structure in place. Yeah. That, I mean, I love it because there's the other, you know, the structure versus script. And I've seen too many people try to literally memorize their presentation or whatever it is, especially when it comes to keynotes. And I've seen some horror shows when that happens, right? Where they, I mean, I, I'm not going to call anybody out, but there's this one where they were up on stage and it was a huge conference and halfway, not even like, I think it was like the fifth sentence. You watched their brain stop. Like you could tell that they had memorized their intro, their body language and how they were going to walk up on stage and all this other stuff.

And all of a sudden it was, I mean, I've, cause I've been there before. So I know the look and I know the feeling. And I was like, holy shit. And then they backed up a little bit. They're like, sorry, sorry. You know, it was a late night last night. Ha ha ha. But then they went right back into that sentence and slammed into the exact same wall. And it was one of the most awkward things. I think, you know, when you want to just crawl under your seat and be like, Oh my God, like I wanted to jump up on stage and be like, Hey everybody, what's going on? So anyways, and just kind of take the distraction off. But where is that line between structure and script and memorizing? Cause I think a lot of people think that, Hey, let me just, you know, practice, practice, practice.

Let me get this script down so I can just say it in my sleep. But there's a danger to that. So I personally am not a huge fan of scripts. I think we should be using frameworks. I think we should essentially have outlines that we know. And then what, what I like to think of it. And I don't know why this works in my brain, but I essentially think of it as buckets that just are like around my talk. And I've got like bucket one is kind of this topic with like a few, maybe key phrases that I think that I know will land with people. And essentially what I'm doing is each bucket is like that. And as I'm delivering my talk, I'm also reading my audience. So I have, obviously my opening hook is prepared.

That's going to be delivered. And then I generally have kind of like a normal opening that I'll go through past that. And then I'm reading my audience. Do I go bucket one to bucket two to bucket three? Maybe. Or maybe I go bucket one. I'm like, you know what? I don't need bucket two anymore because this audience clearly gets, they don't need the background. So I'm just going to go straight to bucket three and start going through it. But if I had a memorized script, I can't do that because the problem with memorization is you have to go start to finish. It's actually one of the easiest ways to tell if someone is telling a true story that they live themselves is they have to be able to like jump in and out of it at different points and tell it to you.

As a child abuse prosecutor, one of the ways I would tell if a child was telling a true story or something they made up is can I start and stop them at different points and get them to be able to seamlessly tell it? Just like you said, the person up on stage, they couldn't just go back into that flow because they had to go back and then restart. If you're memorizing, what we want to have again is that outline and then have a comfort with extemporaneous speaking, which is prepared, but without notes. And that's ultimately what we're trying to achieve with frameworks, with this guidance, with kind of this theme and dismount. So it kind of keeps you true. And it's nothing wrong with writing out your talk.

In fact, I think that's valuable. Write it out, but don't memorize it. Just do that practice so you can refine and make sure it's really tight and clear and it's going to make sure it's going to be the point that you want. Last, well, probably last question. How do you handle your emotions, portraying your emotions to the audience? Do you, like, if you're very nervous, are you a fan of calling out whatever your experience to make you relatable? Or, you know, because, you know, you fuck up halfway through a presentation, something like that, you start sweating, the computer doesn't go. Like, how do you deal with those variables of either the, I screwed up and I'm freaking out, or the combative person that tries to throw you off of your presentation?

Like, I know those are kind of two separate ones, but any thoughts on, on how to, how to address that or how to, how to work with that? Sure. So first off, I will say, I don't think, I think nerves are, are a misnomer. I think we feel energy and we determine whether we call that nerves or we call that excitement. If you call it nerves, guess what? You're nervous. If you call it excitement, guess what? You're excited. If we think about it, like a basketball player who has two seconds left on the clock, there's going to be like three players on the court that want nothing to do with it because they're like, I'm nervous. There's going to be two that are like, I want the ball. Let me be the hero.

They're excited. It's the exact same situation. It's just, we're calling it different things like that. So I think that's the first piece to remember is what we call it is what it manifests itself as. But then when it comes to these situations, like I would never call out to an audience, like, Hey, I'm so nervous, or this is my first time because that signals to them, you're not credible. And unfortunately the reality is audiences take confidence to equal competence. And so if you're getting up there and being like, I'm so nervous or like, I've never done this before. Guess what? You're not a confident person up there. And now your competency is in question to them. So what are they going to be looking for the entire talk?

They're going to be looking for times you mess up that we want to own that. We're just like, we've done this a thousand times. I'm super comfortable. And when things go wrong, and this goes back to that quote that I said earlier, everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the mouth. Every trial I was in, something always went wrong. A witness didn't show. They said something crazy. My technology didn't work. A juror did something weird. The judge made a wrong call. Like it didn't matter. But what you do is even in those instances where you screw up, let's say your presentation messes up. You just play it off. We all know how technology is these days, y'all. Let's just keep going. And you just move right through it because it makes you look, you actually get credit by looking like a seasoned pro, just like it happens.

We're just going to keep charging forward. I don't like, nothing's going to stop me. But that means you've got to be prepared for that. And part of this is that mindset of knowing. And this is what I tell anybody that I work with. You're going to get punched in the mouth. It is going to happen. When it does, just realize, take the blow, absorb it, and then keep moving forward because you can. And that's actually what I think is the difference between somebody who's confident and somebody who's cocky. Confidence is when you've actually been knocked down and realize you can get up and keep moving forward because you've been in those situations. You've gone through it and you create that growth.

And so to me, you play it off in that way, but you never expose, I'm so nervous or like the world is going off around me. You just sit in that chaos and that storm and you feel it and you act like the captain of the ship so that you can continue to steer it. I think that a lot of that is leadership, right? I think there was, was it U547 or something? There's a great movie with Matthew McConaughey and the, the, it's the submarines and the captain, you know, or whatever they call him on a submarine dies or gets killed or whatever. And Matthew McConaughey is the second in command and his whole crew looks at him and he says, what do we, and they said, what do we do? And he goes, I don't know. You know what I mean?

Like, and he's, and he's freaking out and everybody kind of like, you see everybody just unravel because in that moment, even though he had no fucking idea what to do, he should have been like, I'm going to, you know, whatever it is, like he should have instilled the confidence in that crew because it pretty much fell apart after that when he told them, I don't know what the fuck's going to do here. Right. And it was a terrible leadership example versus other leaders. Now you don't want to, do you believe in the, cause I know Gary Vaynerchuk doesn't, uh, and I'm curious from your perspective, I think this works in golf, but I don't, and I used to subscribe to this, but do you believe in the fake it till you make it type of thing in that scenario?

So I don't believe you're, you're faking it. I just think you're not calling attention to maybe the like internal feelings that you have, right? Like if, if I'm feeling like, if this is my first time, I don't think that anybody needs, like, I don't need to call that fact out. I'm not going to get up there and say, I've done this a thousand times. Right. And I think this goes to this idea of like too many, too many people will call out these weaknesses that nobody else would even know. Right. That doesn't mean you're making up strengths. That just means you're, you're not sharing that part. That's going to destroy your credibility. Yeah. So is it fake it till you make it? No, you're being true to yourself.

You're just not calling out some of these things. That's going to charge yourself. Like if you're talking to a bunch of executives and you're like, sorry, all this is like the first time I've ever been in a room with so many like high powered individuals, those high powered individuals no longer trust you. Right. Because they're like, oh, this is the first time he's been here. Like, this isn't somebody I'm going to listen to. Now you're done. But if you just act like you, no, don't get in there and say, I've done this a thousand times, but act like you have just stay confident and just stay comfortable in that moment and realize they can't see inside of you. Like they don't know how you're feeling.

They don't know how you're thinking. So what they just see is your external appearance. So let's make sure externally we're presenting confidently that we're in control, that this is just another day at the office, that we're delivering value to them. And we know that we have something to offer. I love it. Awesome. Well, Robbie, we're, we're about up on time here. What's anything we miss? Anything, any big points that you wanted to make sure that we hit on before we get out of here? You know, I think, I think the biggest thing, one thing I love to talk to a little bit is I think a lot of people in sales and in speaking, just feel the sense of imposter syndrome. And I think, you know, I always want to talk on this because I really do think if you're feeling imposter syndrome, you're doing something right.

It's a signal that you're growing. And if you're not feeling it, you're not pushing yourself enough. So keep going. It's funny you bring that up. I actually just, uh, I did an Instagram post on a podcast that I did a while back and I said, there's a hidden gem on this one. And I want you, you know, anybody who figures it out, uh, I'll send a t-shirt to, and it was the imposter syndrome because I feel that I felt that my entire life, you know, I'm a, I'm a state school kid. I drank my way through four years of college, you know, and I, I know I'm not the smartest kid in the room, but that's, but every time I get in the room with the smart kids after about like 15, 20 minutes, I'm like, wait a minute, you're just as fucked up as I am.

And, and you know, you're just smart in a different way than I am. And I, and it was funny because this one, you know, I was interviewing the chief, you know, I don't want to say the title cause it'll give it away, but like the, the biggest of the big of a huge company. And I didn't really, I didn't realize it before the podcast. Cause I just got on, I didn't do any prep and I was like, Oh, and all of a sudden I looked at the title like two minutes beforehand. And I was like, Oh my God, I'm about to meet with the CXO of X fucking huge company. Holy shit. And you know, but it was funny because within 10 minutes of the conversation, I'm like, ah, all right, we all put our pants, you know what?

And it did just this constant reminder that you deserve to be there. And I think that's that confidence versus ego thing that, that there's that fine line that a lot of people that a lot of people, uh, kind of run on quite a bit. Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree with that completely. I think that's, that's the beauty is we're all people. We all deserve to be in that room. Uh, the only one, like the only time you don't belong is when you tell yourself you don't belong because then that's going to be the result. Yeah, exactly. I tell kids who are worried about calling CEOs, CFOs or whatever it is. I go, look next time you're at the store. Okay. Turn around in whatever line you're in, turn around, turn around.

And I guarantee you that person that's two, three people behind you in line with their kids pulling their shirt off and they're all mad and they're disheveled. And also, I almost guarantee you there's some huge executive. It's some big company that's making a boatload of cash. And they're felt they're doing the same shit. You're, or the, you go to a party and you see somebody pass out drunk. There's a possibility that that person is quote unquote successful in some way, shape or form. So don't worry about having that conversation with them. We all put our pants on the same way. So awesome, Robbie. Well, look, I love the conversation here. I'm glad you're okay. Uh, from last week. So moving forward there, uh, what do you want people to learn more about where you want people to go for performative speaking and everything else?

And how can they get in touch with you? Yeah. If you want to get in touch with me, email is the easiest way. Robbie at Robbie crab.com. Anyone's welcome to reach out to me there. You can also check out my website. It's Robbie crab tree.com. I write on there about sales, speaking, all these sorts of things, uh, has information about performative speaking as well in terms of how you can learn more there. And then Twitter and Instagram are great ways to follow me and LinkedIn. So Twitter is at Robbie crab, Instagram and LinkedIn is at the Robbie crab. Awesome. Awesome. Robbie. Well, thank you again for coming on, man. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much on this is fantastic. And, uh, love, love chatting with you today.

Yeah. And I, I might actually, uh, hit you up for, for some, from tips on my end, as far as getting if, and when I get back out into the public speaking, I, I, you know, I'll be, I'll be honest. I don't think that, uh, you know, this whole COVID thing and get me off of an airplane has been a blessing. So my desire to go back on the road and do keynotes and all that other stuff is not high, but I know it's coming. So I might have to, uh, pick your brain here a little bit when I get back into that mode. So, uh, I'll, I'll keep your email handy. Sounds amazing. I'm looking forward to it. Awesome. All right, everybody. Well, hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Got you some nuggets out of here, some things to think about.

Um, and just like I say, every time go out there and make somebody happy today. Cause even if you had a shitty day, if you made somebody happy, made somebody smile, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that these days. So get out there and make it happen. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate it. All right, y'all. That's a wrap for this episode of make it happen. Mondays all rise. The honorable judge relevance presiding. Uh, I understand that we've reached a verdict. We, the jury find the conversation to be highly valuable and recommend the accused Robbie Crabtree continue to teach salespeople to speak persuasively and with tact and confidence. JB really hit a high note here with Robbie, and we hope that you see the lines drawn that connect persuasive speaking to sales as clearly as we can see them.

Your membership to JB sales will include weekly live, ask me anything sessions, and now quarterly one-on-one coaching as well. This is a new change and we look forward to bringing it to you, our audience, the folks that get the most value out of the content that we create. If you don't want to hope for success and you want a plan, let's get you started, get access to all our training courses, tips, and tactics today, and get the kind of help that you need at on-demand.jbarrows.com. JB sales is now live on Instagram. Follow us today at JB sales training, all one word where you'll get daily tips, sales strategies, and much, much more. Follow us to get personal with us. Let's go. This page is amazing.

So much fun. Also, be sure to subscribe to Morgan J. Ingram's One Up Formula on Spotify and iTunes today. This is where leaders are going now to share how they got where they are and where growth and development came from in their lives and sharing it with you, Morgan, and the audience that follows Morgan. You guys have been like a cult following. It's really getting crazy. Mindset matters. So learn from Morgan and all of his star guests as they tell all and help you get to the next level. The One Up Formula is the bomb. Be sure you're subscribing to that. We'll see you next week, everybody, when we bring you another stellar guest that's here to help you sell better. Make it happen.