224: Scott Gillum on Personality-Based Marketing as The Next Level of ABM

What's poppin' y'all, it's your man James, Say What Sales Buckley, and this is your weekly dose of Make It Happen Mondays with your host, John Barrows. Big shout out to our partners, Sales Loft, Proposify, Gong, Vidyard, Chili Piper, and Demo Desk. These are all amazing products to work with, with positive team members that you can trust. They're all customer-centric and addicted to solving problems to a point where it is an unhealthy obsession for what they do. Be sure you connect with these incredible sponsors of Make It Happen Mondays. A JB Sales membership not only gives you access to world-class training and other resources, but it will soon provide access to us directly. Training content and education is great, but after the last 18 months, it's that one-to-one attention and that engagement that you're all after, we're going to deliver it.

JB Sales will soon include weekly Ask Me Anything sessions and quarterly one-on-one coaching sessions that are 100% about you, our audience. So sign up today to become a member at on-demand.jbarrows.com, and I look forward to our first conversation. Today, we welcome Scott Gillum, CEO and founder of Carbon Design, a network of products and services providers that constantly add value to your business growth plans and resources. John and Scott are talking challenger as a sales model, the downturned economy, and what makes a good salesperson, and what makes a good buyer. This is going to be a great conversation that tons of salespeople need to hear, but buyers should as well. Let's get things going with a few other sensitive subjects that people tend to avoid these days.

Take it away, JB. Good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrow. This is making it happen Monday. Hopefully, you had a fantastic weekend. I had a pretty good one. The weather's getting better here in Boston. I'm just looking forward to the summer. So, and actually on that note, I am really looking forward to this conversation because I have been trying to figure out, right? We talk a lot about personas and personalities. And when I came across Crystal Nose a little while ago, I was blown away because my mom was a career counselor and I've had a Myers-Briggs since I was about five years old. I've had a disc profile since I was about 10. And this gentleman, Scott Gillum, CEO and founder of Carbon Design, has way more insights in this than I do.

And I am excited to have this conversation. So, Scott, thanks for coming on, man. How are you doing? Thank you. Thank you, John. I appreciate you having me on this morning and I'm going to try to figure out what part of the disc you are as we have this conversation. I think it'll be pretty obvious pretty quick. So, Scott, just for some context here, give people a little background on yourself, where you're coming from and definitely tap into that corporate executive board stuff because I think the audience, most of my audience probably knows corporate executive board and challenger sale and everything else. But give us a little background here. Yeah. So, first thing to know is I grew up in sales.

First 10 years of my life, I was carrying a bag. I worked in pharmaceuticals and I worked in healthcare. And then the next 10 years, I worked in management consulting and selling consulting services to sales and marketers and B2B. Grew up in that area. We did go-to-market strategy, distribution strategy, kind of like the economists for sales folks. So, we worked with really big companies to figure out how to increase their profits. And my particular specialty was not a good one. And I shifted field sales to inside sales. We built inside sales organizations for Xerox, NCR, ADP. I was mentioning to a friend the other day, like I had to go into Xerox and tell them that they had to cut 800 field sales guys.

And that was an unpleasant conversation. What year, just out of curiosity, what year was that? Early 2000s, Rick Thoman had come into IBM support and McCaulvey. Yeah, McCaulvey. He came in from IBM and made some promises to Wall Street. And our analysts did the work and said, you're not going to make it. You got to get that cost of sale down. And this is what we have to do. I was right after my tenure, by the way. So, I graduated in 98. My first job was DeWalt for about a year and a half. And then in 2000, I joined Xerox. And in 2001, I left. I was only there for about a year and a half in Boston. It was the first year they had taken the sales training from Rochester and made it local. We were still doing, you know, face-to-face and everything else.

But that also is when everything started to kind of fall apart for them as well. They had all these shady accounting practices going where they were putting copiers in Mexico and still having them on lease and all that shit. So, you were probably, that was an interesting use case and case study for you. Yeah. So, from there, I had always worked with numbers. So, I was always very data-driven, research-driven. And then I ended up in advertising. I started an office for a private equity roll-up in B2B. And that company became known as Gyro, which was acquired for Dentsuits now, the world's largest B2B agency. And one of my first clients, my last client when I left consulting was Corporate Executive Board, CEDB.

And my first client as an agency guy was CED, Corporate Executive Board. And this is a funny story, how I got the phone call. So, I just opened up an office in Arlington, Virginia. They were right down the street, literally right down the street. I could walk to their office. I got a phone call and say, hey, we need some help. And I said, hey, tell me a little bit more what's going on. And I said, we've gone 400 rounds trying to define our value proposition. And we're kind of stuck. What? 400 rounds? And I laughed, right? And I said, no, really, how many rounds have you gone? And they said, no, we're serious. It's been 400 rounds. What? And their agency quit on them. So, I said, yeah, I think I might be able to help you.

And we wrestled it to the ground. It lasted for maybe six months. And they changed it again. Why not just make a decision and try it out and see if it fails and then try it again? Like, that's analysis paralysis in a lot of ways, right? Come on. It's kind of typical of being a really smart organization. They are a very smart organization with a lot of really smart people. And they all thought they knew what it was. What was really interesting, the way we solved this problem was, I'm like, I'm up against the wall here. I've got really smart people. And it's going to be very difficult to get consensus out of this group. That's why they can't agree. That's why they're going 400 rounds, right? So, I'm like, you have to have something that you put out on how do you write corporate value propositions.

So, I dug into their database. I found a publication that they put out with instructions on how do you write corporate value propositions. And I said, we're going to use this. You produced it. So, now I had to have everybody consensus because they put it out, right, as authority. So, we used that. And what was really interesting, it came down to the problem was, this is a discipline on market leaders, is that you can either be operationally excellent, you can be product-driven, or you can be customer excellence. And so, you have these three things. This is what he defines as an operating model, right? You can only have one, but you can minor in a second. And when we went over and interviewed the heads of the nine different divisions at that time, which are aligned against functional leaders, it came back almost evenly split, three, three, three.

We're a product leadership organization. We're customer intimate. We're operationally effective. And that was the problem. So, we finally got him on the same page and we went from there. But from that initial engagement, we then became the digital agency of record. And then that led to a relationship when they were writing the Challenger customer. I was going to say, did that lead to the Challenger customer, basically, because they were solving their own problem with consensus? No, but they almost didn't name the book the Challenger customer. And they almost named it something else. And they're like, it's crazy, you guys. Why would you give up on that franchise? Yeah, on that brand, yeah. So, when they were writing the book, they were looking for client examples to prove out some of the research that they had found.

And they reached out to me to see if I could provide some client examples. I did that. And then I started working with Pat Spinner. So, Matt Dixon, Brad Adamson, authors of the Challenger sale, also co-authors on the Challenger customer. And then Pat Spinner and another gentleman, Nick Nomen. So, Pat and I started working on understanding how to commercialize the research. So, Challenger sale, they didn't think about the long tail coming out of that book, which is all the trend. Lost the revenues, built a couple of companies off of that. You know, there are competitors now. So, we looked at the research and how could we commercialize that. And then we developed the Challenger marketing process, which we do.

And we've built some products off of that. And then we had this concept around mobilizers. And if you've ever read the book, I would encourage you to read this book. Here's why. Absolutely. The Challenger sale is about what makes a good salesperson, right? The Challenger customer is what makes a good buyer. Super important to understand that not only you need a good salesperson involved in getting the buying process to the end, the buying journey. You need a good customer, a good buyer to get it to the end. Didn't they almost admit that they whiffed on Challenger sale, like, up front? Because they said, look, yes, but we miss the fact that you can be as big of a challenger as you want. But if the client is not in a position to buy or if there's too much political situation where somebody is just not willing to go through that process, it doesn't matter how much of a challenger you are.

You're going to fail, right? Isn't that – wasn't that kind of the impotence of it? Now, I think the research behind this is when we had the downturn in the economy, 2006, 2007, whatever it was, there was research going on that said, okay, in a downturn in the economy, what makes a good salesperson? And their initial concept would be – or was, it would be a relationship manager, right? Someone's really taking care of the customer and making sure they're – and they found that wasn't the case. It was actually the people who were challenging their – hence the term, right? Their customers. But here's why it works and it is actually very good is it's insight-led, right? And so when you're insight-led – and this relates to how we do challenger marketing is you have to break mindset.

So if you live your life as a sales and marketing person thinking that no one wants to talk to you, you're probably better off. Right. That's true. It will make your life easier. No one wants to read what you're writing. No one wants to respond to your email. And no one wants to take your call. Nobody cares about us. Right. Go from there, right? So you've got to give that audience a reason to listen to you. And that's what it does. If you do it well, and that's the other problem, it's like the ABM. Just because you have the ABM program doesn't mean it's good. Exactly. Most of them aren't, right? And same thing with challenger. I got myself in a little bit of trouble a while back because I got up on stage in front of a couple thousand people at a conference.

And it was when challenger sale was hot. And I said, could you all do me a favor and stop teaching 22-year-old kids how to be a challenger here? Because my perception was you were given a shotgun to a kid and not showing, you know what I mean, with not the strength to be able to use it because they weren't industry experts. They weren't insight-led. They were these kids coming out of college. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I love challenger sale. I love the mindset of it. I love the whole approach to it. But you do have to have some, you know, knowledge and expertise to be able to pull it off, right? Right. That's why marketing has to step up. You're exactly right. If you have this, and this is going to happen with a lot of tools that are coming out now that allow you to get greater insights on people.

And that's going to be dangerous. In fact, when the first time I saw a couple of those tools, you mentioned Crystal Modes. I'm like, this is the worst thing we can put in the hands of people who don't know how to use it. And it really, same thing with challenger sales, same thing with challenger. You have to make the material that goes to that person to use. And you have to train them on how to use it properly, or it will be a disaster. You can't arm people who don't understand how to do this, especially if they're just up against numbers. They're playing a numbers game. You don't spend the time to do the research to understand how to communicate this to an audience on the other side that really doesn't want to talk to you.

And I think that's my ultimate frustration here is, you know, and I say this just when it comes to research on accounts before you make a look, if it was up to me, we'd all have a half an hour hour to do research on every single account we reached out to before we made a phone call. But we got this downward pressure from private equity, from venture capital, from the market saying, no, you got to hit your monthly numbers here. So, therefore, we're in this world where everybody understands, ABM is a perfect example. ABM, everybody understands quality is the answer, right? Personalization, quality, the experience. But yet we're being hammered on numbers right now to do, do, go, go, go, go, go.

So, it's this weird transition where I feel like we're teaching the machines how to do our job because the reps are still sending out cadences, making, you know, all these different things. And all it's doing is teaching the machines how to get better and better and better. And I do believe there is this shift that's going to happen where a massive amount of what sales reps do is just, I don't think it's going to go away. I think it's going to fold up under marketing and operations, like SDRs right now. I firmly believe that SDRs and BDRs are going to roll right up under marketing and operations, be a salaried position, and they're going to use tools and technology and not engage. And they're going to flip over to inside sales reps who run full cycle sales again.

Totally agree. Yeah, and you see it in some areas. I'm not, I thought you were going to say you're going to see them go away, which I think they will go away. Well, go away is a relative term, right? Like, I think they're, I think the skill sets are going to be different. First of all, kids are coming out of school with different skill sets anyways. They're all analytical anyways. They like playing with all the toys and stuff like that. So, you know, the role, I don't, I think the description of the role and having it be the feeder system for sales is going to go away. I think the need for that type of person to look at the information and gather the insights and be able to figure out, I think is still going to be there.

So, you know, it'll be less, but it's just like any other profession with AI, right? I mean, doctors, for instance, you know, AI is going to give the top doctor all the insights to be able to communicate with the person. Same thing with lawyers, like might not need all that staff anymore because AI is going to give us the insight. So the actual big time lawyer. So I think the minions, if you will, are going to get hurt a lot, but it's just going to be a shift. Yeah. Here's the, here's the additional problem is scale is the enemy of good. And as, as we build more on top of the more tax stack, the harder it is going to be to get away from buying the game. Yeah. And there, and there's two ways to make your number more or better and better is conversion rate.

And for whatever reason, people will not pull that lever on conversion. Well, because it's easy. There are so many levers on conversion that can be pulled. Because more is easier. You know, I mean, I think I read through one of your posts or somebody that you were tagged in where they talked about when COVID hit, you know, what did everybody do? Like Mark numbers went through the floor. So, so activity went through the roof and the HubSpot blog, right. That showed that disparity of, wow, you know, phone, phone calls went through the roof and nobody picked up email. So people just kept throwing more fuel on this fire because it's easy. And Scott, this is where I feel like, um, I, I feel like we're in this transition.

I'm a Gen X or 45 years old. I, I grew up, we grew up in a numbers world where it was like, hit, hit the list. Here's your sale. Right. Here's your list. Go, go, go, go. Same thing. Yeah. So now we're the leaders, we're the managers right now. Right. And I think, again, everybody fundamentally understands quality is the answer, but it's hard to coach towards quality. It's hard to coach towards those conversion ratios. You know, it's really easy to coach to, did you make 50 dials today? Did you get, you know, did you get your 10 meetings this month? That's easy. And so it's a laziness factor in a lot of ways, but it's also from downward pressure from the executive board. It is ridiculous. It really is.

It's a, it's an antiquity. It's an antiquated way of thinking. Honest to God. It really is. Is it going to, do you see it stopping? You know, I, I don't know. And here's, here's the really interesting thing is that this numbers mentality, which has been in sales forever, right? It's prepped its way over into marketing. Yeah. And so marketing does things that it shouldn't be doing right now. We're trying to use marketing to sell to senior executives, to C-suite. You can't do that. And a lot of time I spend with marketers saying, that's not your job. That's not what you're supposed to do. And people have somehow forgot that this is like, they're all caught up in the numbers, the pressure around number, number, number, number, number.

Now we're just, we've had clients drop, you know, millions of dollars in media without really doing a good job of figuring out the strategy just because they had the money and they needed to go. Yeah. And, and there's also a me too factor here. It's like, I'm doing it because everybody else is doing it type of thing. And I'm a huge benefactor of that. Like I, you know, I trained Salesforce, right? So a lot of these SaaS companies just know, because I trained Salesforce, they're like, oh, you've come in and train us. I'm like, wait a minute. You don't, you're not ready for this. Like you're not structurally set to be able to, to be able to get the most out of this training. And why do you need this training?

Well, Salesforce, and we want to grow like them. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Same thing with these events. Like all these marketing events are like almost insulting the amount of money right now when people went remote and started doing these like, you know, trade shows, remote trade shows. Now the amount of money that was spent on some of these that I know, and I'm not going to call anybody out, but I'm like, oh my God. And mind you, they like, they get celebrities, they pay for the speakers and you know, all this other stuff. And when I talk to you in my world, like a hundred thousand, $200,000 to throw one event, which to me is bananas, right? We on our team, little 10 person JB sales team with a decent reach, we put out a few posts and we get, you know, a thousand, 2000 people to show up to a webinar and we do it for free.

And it's like, where are, why is there such a me too factor? Is it because they have to show to the board that they're doing something? Yeah. It's, it's ridiculous. I mean, if you think, if you think about, and this is what makes me crazy. And this is me like Don Quixote going, chasing windmills is why do we tolerate failure? If you, if you flip the numbers around in marketing, a 5% response rate is a 95% failure rate. That's how we ought to be talking to get things to change. Right. Even if you get a great response rate of 10% or you get a conversion rate of 10%, right? You're still 90% failure. And you know what? We do stupid things. And at least this, and for whatever reason we can't help ourselves.

And I'll give you an example. We target the C-suite, right? From a marketing standpoint. Well, we've shown through our work in personality and based marketing that 30% of your audience will not respond because that is not in their personality type. They will not put them on the list. Doesn't care. Not going to get it. The second part is there's a whole, another group of C-level people that won't get involved because it's not their job. They're not at the beginning of the buying process. So they're not going to pay attention to anything. They don't respond to marketing channels, right? They are peer to peer driven. That is their number one information source. And it will always remain that way.

Right. And third is you don't have a C-level issue that they need to solve. Right. So why are you targeting? Right. But we still do that. Right. And the reason that happens is sales guys influence sales organization, influencing marketing because they look at who signs the deal. That's your job. You can figure out how you're going to work up the organization to get the signature. And I wrote this post two weeks ago, it was in the drum. We have a database of 10,000, over 10,000 now that we've collected from our clients across three industries. They're looking at who's responding to marketing material, whether it's webinars, downloading podcasts, downloading white papers, any material. We pulled them out of lead nurturing campaigns, looked at 60% of the titles, director level.

That's who responds. And you know why? Because they're motivated to do that. It's their job. They have the pain. Typically, if you're selling a tech solution, they're the ones that are users. They have the pain, right? Two, they're motivated from a career perspective. Bringing new ideas into the organization looks good in front of their bosses. So they're actively seeking that. And there's 10 times as many of them out there actively seeking information than any other group. But we don't target them. That's not an audience to target. That's a door opener. And here's the other important thing about that level is buyer's journey doesn't start unless you have a motivated audience to move it. And they're motivated.

They either have pain or they want recognition. Yeah. And I think when talking, you know, sales, you know, I think COVID changed a lot of things in a lot of ways, too, because, you know, the traditional thought process and sales, same thing, right? Top down. Go after the C-level executive with some sort of message, get referred down and then do your thing. And then now you have the executive. But what happened was, and I explained this and I've experienced it. And even as my own, you know, CEO, my own little company here, like during good times, like when the economy is going well and everybody's making money, executives are willing to make somewhat, I would say, unpopular decisions, right? Like not necessarily get everybody's consensus because, look, I'm looking three, four or five years out.

I see a vision here. You might not see it because you don't have the insights that I do into the business as an employee. So, look, I'm going to make some decisions. You might not like it, but suck it up, right? That's when things are going good. When things are going bad and down economies, executives do not want to make unpopular decisions. And so what they look for is the consensus, right? So the actual bottom up approach is a far more effective approach by learning and talking to the individuals who have the pain, collecting that information as opposed to guessing about it, collecting it from the people who are feeling it, and then creating an actual solution that you go up to the executive with and say, hey, we've been talking to 15, 20, 30 of your employees, and this is what they're telling us.

And we have a solution. So, and then the executive turns back to the employees and say, is this something you really need? Yeah, we do. Okay. Consensus, bye. See you later. So it's actually shifted quite a bit with COVID. Same thing with marketing, it sounds like. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you want to improve your list, take 30%, you know, improvement, take all the C-level people you have. And here's the second mistake related to that, especially as it relates to marketing. We create these role-based personas and there's no person in it, right? So we had a client, we did a campaign, they were targeting the CIO, CTO suite, and we ran the numbers. And this, by the way, is the numbers for U.S. And this is a clue for everyone who's listening.

There are four different personality types that are resonant sitting in a CIO, CTO suite. And they all have various different preferences, motivations, and behaviors. It's like, yeah, we write content one way, we write one persona, and we don't recognize there's four distinct personality types. And this is the way it breaks down in the U.S. There are using DISC, okay? Hopefully the audience is familiar with that, right? Awesome, yeah, yeah. So here's the most important, well, I'll tell you the combination. And this is the interesting thing is, there's one thing to understand personality types. And this is why these tools are becoming dangerous. You can understand someone's personality type, and you can get it right at a very high, accurate level now.

It's the combination of personality types together that's more important. But let me go back to who sits in our world in North America. It's roughly 30% to 35% are influencers. And these are audiences that are actively seeking information. And I'll talk about why they're important, but then what the problem is with them. The next one is 30, 35% is dominant. These are the two most important folks in the buyer's journey, and I'll tell you why in a second. And then we've got the conscientious, which is around 10%, 15%. And then we have the skeptics, 10%, 15% as well, right? When you go to Asia, that skews the other way. You have more skeptics, the conscientious in Asia, which is really interesting.

In fact, I found the first purely rational buyer in South Korea I've ever seen. We take deals apart and look who's involved, and then we personally profile them, and then we watch from work. This woman came in. She was a pure rational buyer. And we also can look at how audiences are consuming content across the sales process. So this is a 15-month journey, right? So we're watching who's hitting the content, what their titles are. We see here she's an executive director level. Profiles is conscientious. 100% rational buyer. All data-driven, research-driven. She took the deal from $350 down to $150. Because she's risk-adverse, right? So she's much more oriented on the risk spectrum than she is on the reward spectrum.

That'll happen to you when you get one of those personalities. So back to the combinations. Influencers are out there, and influencers are oftentimes high-level audiences. They will hit your content. We took a part of a lead nurturing program for a client. They had this C-level person hitting their content. He turtled on them, right? Showed up, gone. Came back three months, hit it again. Gone. Hit it again. So we did a profile. I'm like, this is an influencer. Here's the problem. C-level influencer won't do anything with your information. They don't have time. They're just scanning the landscape. That's what they do, right? In order to move it, you've got to get a dominant involved. He's got to get connected to the dominant.

Go into the account. Let's pull lanes out. Let's profile it. And see if we can't match those two together. That's the good combination. And dominance drives your buying process. If you want the buyer's journey to go, you need dominance involved. And they're at VP level. They love to own things. This is how you find them. They love to own things. They love to own teams. They love to own budget. They like to be successful. They like to see success. They're very career-oriented and driven in their success. So, it's a problem is that they're typically heads down and they're not scanning for new solutions, new providers. Someone has to bring that to them. But once they get a hold of it and it matches what they want to do, they'll run like crazy on it.

Yeah, it's interesting because I'm a high D, low I, right? Based on that description, I might consider myself a high I, low or D because I definitely scan for newer, cooler shit. And then when I find it, I don't necessarily love owning it. I find it and then give it to somebody and say, go get this done and let me know what I need to do to help you get that done. High D, low I, right? That's high behavior. But if you look at my desk profile, it says high D, low I. So, I mean, there's a combination of both there. Yeah. So, how do, because you talked about personas, right? And I talk a lot about personas. You got CIOs and I try to at least break it down into like CIOs in healthcare versus CIOs in manufacturing.

But it's more about what their priorities are, not necessarily what their personality is, right? Because most kids, I mean, business acumen is one of the biggest sorely lacking skills in sales in general. We're finally getting to a point where sales is actually an educated profession. You know, I think there's like now 70 or something colleges now that you can actually get a degree in sales. Thank God. Right. Exactly. But, you know, the business acumen piece of it is just knowing how to engage from a business standpoint is so lacking. And I know this because when I ask sales reps who sell technical solutions to technical people, I'll say, hey, all right, y'all business acumen. You think you got it?

Yeah, cool. Well, what's the difference between a CTO and a CIO? Crickets, right? Most of them have no idea. But so there's that level of, okay, I understand the role. All right, y'all, tools, disk profiles, insights, and how salespeople use them. This is one of those back and forths where people in their cars are listening, shaking their heads yes, going, I feel you. The role of SDR has been a hot topic for some time, but it's amazing to me how John and Scott both see it changing in different ways. I like how Scott said, the more we focus on scale, the less we focus on better. That one really hit home for me. All right, y'all, share your stories with me. I need to hear them. You can send them to me directly at james at jbarrows.com to be highlighted on next week's episode.

This week, we're giving a big round of applause to Colt Doyle, student at Oregon State University, who recently became certified in filling the funnel via JBSales On Demand. With this structure and process in place, Colt, you're going to be a top performer in no time. Congratulations, my friend. Welcome to the family. Colt's certification can also be on your LinkedIn profile as a member of JBSales On Demand. Gain access to our flagship prospecting program, Filling the Funnel, or the rest of our courses, like Driving to Clothes and Driving Results with Customer Success, Personal Branding, and of course, the Personas Masterclass with Ashley Early. You'll find that all the skills and best practices are at your fingertips at ondemand.jbarrows.com today.

I'll see you there. Let's throw it back to Scott and JB to keep this stellar conversation rolling. I've talked a lot about above and below the power line, okay? And there's two types of people above or below, specifically below the power line. There's people who are on their way up and there are people who will always be, right? So there are people who are just comfortable in their spot. They like doing their job. They don't want to cause any waves. They just want to get paid for doing a decent job and they're never going to move anything. But there's those other people that are literally on their way up and will eventually be above the power line. Those are the people that I look for. And those, to me, sound like the drivers or the influencers here in this equation.

Yeah. They're the director levels that profile as influencer dominance. Absolutely. Yeah. Are those the ones we should be targeting as sales professionals? If you want to get things started, yeah. It's started. So that's a good point. Like, started versus finished. But if you want to get things moving, you should be focusing on that kind of lower tier. Not the executive, but kind of that director level who is a driver. And without a tool like Crystal Knows, without a tool like, you know, Watson or whatever it is, what are some things that you could suggest that reps look for when scoping out an account? So I got an account. It's one of my tier ones. I'm figuring out my strategy on how to get in here.

I got LinkedIn. I can look at the titles and whatever it is. But what is that stuff that I should be looking for to identify those people? All right. So this is the first thing that they need to think about. How do I capture this information? Right. The first three steps in the buyer's journey is all conducted without any action with a person or a rep or teller. Right. It's all digital. Yep. Okay. And that digital journey, I'm looking to do three things. Collecting information, defining my need, and mitigating my risk. How do I not make a bad decision? And there's a lot of really great work that Hank Barnes has done in Gardner on this. You really should see that. So we already know because there's risk involved, and especially if it's a bigger transaction, there's an emotional buyer.

If there's an emotional buyer, then we have to figure out their motivations and behaviors. And we have no metrics, no way of capturing any type of emotional lever on a prospect. Our whole systems are built to measure rational elements. Is it a decision maker? Is it a budget holder? Is it? You take it apart. You use ban. You teach excelling. They're all measuring rational factors. Again, it's like measuring the numbers. So the first thing you need to do is figure out how to capture why this buyer is motivated to take action. And then also look at the organization. What is the organization's motivation? Because here's one of the, you know, 50% of our deals die going through the buying process.

It's because the organization's changed, is mine, and what its priority is. So you need to really understand where the additional initiatives are going on inside the organization, and how motivated are they to solve those over mine, right? So start capturing that information, and then start capturing what is the motivation of this individual to move forward or advocate for my brand or advocate for my solution because it's emotionally driven. They connect to you. If they connect to you, there's great research that CEB did years ago. If you connect to a buyer and a personal owner, they're twice as likely to advocate for your brand, and they're twice as likely to pay a higher premium for your product.

They won't take you apart at the very end. So that's the things that think about what I'm not capturing today. Then what I'm looking at is what are they looking at, right? So go into Salesforce, get access, and hopefully you're integrated into whatever marketing automation platform, and you can see what their consumption behavior is. This is the most important factor. It's not downloads. It is not what they're consuming. It's what they're sharing. And if your organization's not tracking what is being shared, you are missing what's happening inside of the organization. See, I love that. And I think there's the shortcut version of that. And my assumption is most of the clients that I work with don't have the tools, right?

I hope that they do and they have all their everything's right. But I always go like cheapest, freest way of doing something. LinkedIn is a perfect example. The first thing that I'll do is I will go on what they post, but then what they're liking, right? What are they liking, what are they, and that gives me a sense of where's this person's head at? Like, oh, there's a whole bunch of, you know, LGBTs, you know, cute stuff this month. All right. So this person is, you know, has that mindset. And so, all right, I need to connect with them in a slightly different way, which makes us, and this is where I believe that I think sales reps need to become mini marketers in today's world, right? We need to lay the groundwork here as far as what our persona is and what our personality is, right?

So we can attract the ones that have a similar one, but also lay that groundwork so that there's the impression game where they see us, they hear us, right? So it's almost like before me even calling you, Scott, before me even sending one email to you, I'm going to spend an entire month stalking the shit out of you on social and engaging with you on social, but not selling in any way, shape, or form so that I can make that connection so that when that phone call comes, I'm more familiar to you. The most important question that you have to be ready to answer, and this is when you can make the outreach, is why would this person listen to me? Yeah. Not what? Because we'll spend all day talking about what we have, right?

Why would they listen to me? And then if you can answer that question, then you probably have a pretty good understanding of what's gone inside the organization, what's happening in that industry, what role this person plays inside the organization. Yeah. Do you know my mentor, Jeff Hoffman, by any chance? No, I don't. Oh, you got to. You and Jeff have to talk. I got to introduce you to, because he's, first of all, he's huge into NLP. He's huge into all these different things as well. And he's the guy who created Basho Sales Training, which I then started, worked for, and then effectively took over in a lot of ways. But he, you know, he talks a lot about that. And one of the things, you bring it up, the email approach that he came up with that has now been bastardized by a billion people is called the why you, why you now.

And the whole idea is, like, you go on research, you find it, you know, you do some research, you find a trigger, you send it up to an executive, whatever. But it was funny. I trained it for years. And I always thought why you, why you now is just a hard acronym. You know, it's like something hard to say, whatever. But he explained it to you. He goes, no, no, no. Those are the two questions that you need to answer if you expect somebody to respond to you. Why am I reaching out to you versus you versus you versus you? And why am I reaching out to you right now versus last week versus next month? And if you can genuinely answer those two questions, you should expect a pretty decent conversion ratio.

Well, here's the other way to get to that. And this is a problem that is commonly made. When you do your research, don't do research about how that audience thinks about you. And that's a mistake that's done all the time with marketing. When they go out and actually do customer research or they do any kind of market research is, how do you think about us? How do you think about our brand? How do you think about our products, right? And a lot of times, this is why organizations can't come up with effective, differentiated messaging because they don't look outside of that. That's the problem. You have to look outside of that. And the way you do it is you look at that audience and you look at what they think about.

How do they think about their customers? How do they think about their competitors? How do they think about the changes in the industry, right? And what are they missing? Because they have a certain mindset, especially if you're dealing with someone at a senior level, if they've been in an organization for 10 years, they have a locked-in mindset, right? And because of that, they have gaps because they have biased thinking, right? So you're trying to figure out what are those gaps. So I'll give you an example of work we did with the CEB guys when we were doing a pilot on Challenger Marketing about how to shift minds. And the Challenger Marketing approach works like this. It's called A-Gap-B. Mindset A is the existing mindset about how they think about their business, right?

Which I was just describing. The gaps are, what are they missing? And these are things that they're missing because they're biased, right? They're missing it because it's new information they weren't aware of. Or it's underappreciated or undervalued. And you just have to elevate, right? And when you do that, you start to break that mindset. When you use it, you do it with research and data. Research and data, do your homework, get it right, right? Then you rebuild the mindset up. And you rebuild that mindset up by providing them new information. And when you do that, you lead them to your product and solution. You don't lead with your product and solution. You lead them to it. It's storytelling.

And they go from you buying to them buying, right? For you selling to them buying. And that's what happens. And if you're able to do that, you're shifting the conversation. Now you're seeing is providing value. And so to give you an example of that, built 66 years ago, when gas is not a growth business anymore, right? It is a shrinking business in the U.S. Hope so. I do too. Realized that this was going to become a steel share business to empty out refineries. So in the past, all they cared about, empty out the refinery, sell gas anywhere, really didn't care about the retail look and feel. They got it out of that business a long time ago. Independent people can fly whatever flag they want outside.

Shell, Chevron, Phillips doesn't make a difference. Until gas started shrinking in the United States. Gas sales started shrinking in the United States. Gas station owners had this mindset that was locked in place for 50, 60 years. Ever since, you know, cars probably wheeled out. It's location and lowest price of gas. Be on the corner, have the lowest price, you have a successful business. Except that doesn't matter anymore. Because you don't make any money on the service bays anymore. It's all amenity driven. You shut your bays down, you put in food and drink, right? And there's a lot of research. So we had to break this mindset of this audience that they really need to care about the customer experience because that was actually what was driving convenience store growth.

And gas stations were up against that now. So we had to go through a program of changing that mindset and breaking it down. And we use research and data that said people are only 10% of the population is true price buyers. In that day, we'll go out of the way to buy price. 40% are value buyers. They want something else, right? So we had to go through, use a bunch of research and data to shift that mindset. And we ended up leading down the path to teaching them about customer experience. So it wasn't about them negotiating with sales right now about price. It was about how can you help me improve the customer experience at my location? And they provided a bunch of tools for them to be able to do that.

Why isn't that more obvious to more people when it comes to the customer experience? Like Dave Cansell, who's the CEO over at Drift, he and I had a really, really good conversation on the podcast. And I believe what he says is, everything is commoditized except for the experience. And we know that in our personal lives, you know what I mean? We know what brands we gravitate towards and which ones we avoid, right? Most of the time, it's because we connect with that brand. We had a good experience with that brand. I mean, I got this terrible experience with like Spirit Airlines, right? Like one of the worst airlines I've ever come across in my entire life. I'll never, ever, ever fly them. And please, anybody listen to this podcast, never fly Spirit Airlines, okay?

But like Spirit Airlines, like airlines are airlines. They all have planes. They all have staff. They all have, you know, they all go pretty much the same places, whatever it is. But the experience on Spirit versus something like a JetBlue. Now, I know the U.S. compared to, you know, other countries is way better than the experience is way better than other countries. But just let's use JetBlue in its spirit. I would gladly spend almost twice as much money to go on JetBlue purely because of the experience. Like I feel better on that plane. And why with Glassdoor, with all the review sites out there, with all that? Why isn't it so much more obvious to so many companies that the experience matters?

It's a super good point. And I think coming out of COVID is going to be even more important. I think when we start thinking about bringing people back into offices, and you already see, it was last week we had record quit rates. That's amazing, right? People just aren't going to tolerate the things that they did, not only from brands, but also from where they work. Traffic. Right. Their own experiences that relates to work and life. And so I think that's going to be, coming out, it's going to be really important. It's one of the reasons why I founded Carbon Design in 2017. It was a brown, the fact, I was curious about why people weren't engaged in work anymore. And I was like, well, what's going on?

There's got to be something that's happening. And Daniel, if you've read Daniel King's book, Drive, which is fantastic, I highly recommend that book. He names three things that are important to get engagement. I mean, he gives the answer away, which is mastery, autonomy, purpose. If you can have those three things in the work environment, you'll have happy employees. And we found the company off of that and really built a model that allows people to have a life-work balance. They work whenever they want, however they want, wherever they want. We don't care. It's all output to them. And that's what we really care about. Back to your point about the experience. This is another thing that's really important to understand when you're selling to someone.

They're not just buying you. They're buying into you. And so they want to know that you're thinking about them. They treat brands like personal relationships. There's a lot of really cool research about what happened with Volkswagen when they got the emissions scandal. And owners took it deeply personally. Like, that was an offense to them personally. And that's very true. That's how our brains see brands is the same part recognizes it as a face of a friend. Yeah. Oh, there's no question. I mean, there's, I can't tell you how many brands that I've stopped. Like, at first I was like, oh, I love this brand for everything. And then they did something, you know, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Like, okay, that, that does not, that doesn't align with my values or whatever it is. And it broke the trust factor with that brand. And I never turned back. And I guess the, I also want to, I mean, we're in such a fragile world right now with relationships, right? Where you get 10 attaboys and one fuck up screws it all up, right? So are we really, have we, are we in a situation right now where it is that sensitive, where you screw up once and you're pretty much screwed? Or can you build up enough brand equity where if you screw up once or twice, you'll, they'll give you a chance? Yeah, I think it's kind of the age old thing. It's a, it's how you handle screwing up. Yeah. It saves or kills a relationship.

Yeah. Right. We're all human. It's been a very tough ride for the last year and a half, two years. And I think people are inclined to give you a break as long as you own it. And you, you know, you got to own it and you got to really own it. Not, not fake own it. Like, oh, I went to therapy and I, you know, I do charity work now. Like, I don't know if you saw recently the CNN guy who got caught. So he got, you know, he got caught doing some inappropriate things on zoom and it wasn't his fault. And then he comes back and he has this wicked, awkward interview with, and she's like, so you were caught on video and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, yeah, you know, the last seven months have been really, you know, the worst seven months of my life.

I've gone to therapy. I've thought through things. And as he's saying this, I'm like, what the fuck therapy, dude, you got caught jerking off. Like who gives a shit? I would have, I would have been like, look, you're look, we all do it. I got caught on camera. My bad. Right. Like, but now he's going to food banks and shit. I'm like, dude, just stop it. Like that, that, that actually made it worse for me when he came out and said that type of crap, because that was what the PR company probably told him he had to do. The best day in the best day in your life is a salesperson. And I still remember, I was 34 years old and I was really honest with a customer and I thought, that's it. I'm going to end the relationship.

I've lost the account, but I was, and it was the first time just, I think, cause it stuck with me. I'm like, I'm going to choose to be honest over, try to appease a client and save an account because I need the numbers, right? When the day you make that decision is the best day of your life and it frees you as a salesperson to be able to be better than you've ever been is when you can just not care whether or not you're going to make that number because of the relationship. You are completely honest and you lay it out there. And it always comes back around. You know, I got, I got four personal guidelines to success. And one of them is what goes around comes around because I can't tell you how many times in my career I've seen it happen where I don't know if it was 34, but around the same time I made a conscious decision to stop qualifying people and to start actually disqualifying them.

I would ask all the questions of why, why we weren't a good fit. And I would be brutally honest about where we really were not good. I'm like, look, we do a lot of stuff here, but this is where we shine. Okay. So my job is to figure out if where I shine matches up to what you need. Here's the areas. But if you're talking to me about this stuff, we're okay there, but we're not, that's not our specialty. Actually, I would go talk to so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And people would almost be like, well, wait a minute, you don't want my business? I go, no, I really do want your business. I just don't want your business and provide mediocre service or a mediocre result because my reputation at the end of the day is way more important than that commission that I'm going to get from this deal.

And inevitably, they thank you, appreciate whatever recommendation you can give them. And almost a year or two years later, whenever they're ready for that sweet spot, they come back to you and say, now we're ready. Now can we do it? I have one customer who's reached out to me three times. All right, John, I think this is the time. Like, I think we're in a position now. And every time I'm like, she's like, son of a bitch. She's like, I swear, one of these days we're going to find, we're going to be in a position where we can use your shit, man. And I'm like, I love you and thank you so much, but it's like three times she's come back to me and I've said no, even though I could have done something, but I've said no.

And she's referred people to me. She keeps coming back to me. She's like, it's this weird thing. But I think there does take a little bit of that. You got to learn it. You got to experience it. You got to get to a certain point in your career where you can push back to executives and tell them to hold on, right? Yeah. I think if you're a young salesperson and just coming out of school, the most important thing for you to have is credibility. Yeah. Right. Don't give it away. Don't try to answer a question you don't know the answer to. Don't just turn it around and ask them a question. Don't give away your credibility because that's all you really have at that time. And at that age, do your homework.

Do your homework. Forrester came out years ago with really good research. And I'm glad you pointed it out earlier that when they looked at sales reps in tech, how well they were doing from a customer's perspective, they knew the industry, they knew their products well. They didn't know the person's role inside the organization. So as a young salesperson, get to understand to your point you made earlier, what is their role inside the organization other than maybe making a decision on whatever you want to sell? And the beautiful thing is, it's really not that hard to figure out. I mean, there's tons of data and research and you can read job descriptions. But guess what? Almost every single company that every single sales rep works at has the exact persona that they're selling to in their company.

So if I'm trying to sell to a CIO, if I really am trying to sell to a CIO at that level, I guarantee your company has a CIO. And guess what? I almost guarantee that the CIO in your company, if you approached them and said, hey, Scott, you know, I'm a brand new sales rep here in your company. I'm trying to sell to people like you. Could you just, you know, spend a half an hour with me? Maybe I'll grab lunch or something like that. Just give me some perspective on what a CIO deals with on a day-to-day basis. Like, not that I can read, but real world shit, man. I almost promise you that that executive is going to look at you in a completely different light. They'll be more than happy to help you and educate you on this because they show that you actually give a shit about helping their business succeed.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And use your connections, right? If they're alumni of the university graduated, like, that's a great thing. Find a way to connect to them that makes it, you know, there's something in it for them. Like, people want to do good things. I realized, and you probably did, when you start a business, you realize that people want to help you. And it's great. And you have a much bigger network than you realize that you need to tap into it. You need also to contribute to it as well. Well, and you also need to respect it. Like, what drives me nuts is the kids who, you know, reach out. Hey, John, I want to pick your brain about sales. Kiss my ass. I'm not going to pick, you know, pick me.

My brain on sales is literally out there on the internet. Every video, every blog post I've done, I mean, you can literally pick my brain on the internet anytime you want. If you want to do your homework, like, I love it when people say, like, hey, John, could you just tell me how you got to where you are in your career in sales? I'm like, go fucking read LinkedIn, jackass. And I hang up on them because I give them that punch in the face that they need earlier in their careers because I got it. But if you come to me and say, hey, John, you know, I've been looking through your career, man, and I noticed your progression. I'm really impressed with what you're doing here. And I noticed you actually worked at Xerox for a period of time there.

And what strikes me is that a lot of sales executives have copier backgrounds. And I was wondering if I could just talk to you about how Xerox has influenced your career. I will have that conversation all day long. I like somebody who shows respect that they've done some homework and they have thoughtful, genuine questions to me. I will spend as much time as I have with that person. The best sales pitch I got last year was a Loom video where the rep, have you ever used Loom? Loom, the video. It records, it's a screen. Oh, like Vidyard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Not Loom, but yeah, Vidyard. Yeah, he was using Loom. He went through my LinkedIn bio and he was talking about parts of it. And he's like, I'd love to learn more about this.

And he sent me the link to the video and I watched it. And I gave him a shout out. I'm like, dude, well done. Well done. And that was the only one I got. I mean, I literally put it on LinkedIn, his video, his company and him and said, follow this. This is a great approach. I was the only one I ever got. Yeah. And it's amazing. And that's the thing. It's like I preach about like personalization and doing videos and being thoughtful, right? And I almost feel like a broken record. It's like, all right, who doesn't know this at this point? But the fraction of people that actually do it are still so minute. It's painful, right? I mean, LinkedIn video, everybody knows that LinkedIn's video has been out for two years at this point, right?

We've been talking about it for two years. The amount of LinkedIn videos that I get in my, and I get about 200 in-mails a week at least minimum, like usually 200 to 300 in-mails a week. I get maybe one video a week, maybe. And if, and usually it's a kind of canned crappy one, you know, with the whiteboard saying, hey, John and you, thanks for opening up my video type of thing. But the ones that are actually personalized and show a little bit of thought, like if I might not need their service, but I'll usually get back to them and be like, hey, thanks for the video. I really appreciate the personalization here. We're not in the market for that. But here's, you know, something. Or go talk to this person or whatever.

Yeah. Well, you know, your question you asked a while ago, because we're kind of getting towards the end here, is that you can get a lot of information on LinkedIn about a person. Not only professionally, but as a person. If they're sharing a lot of information, they're most likely an influencer. If you can't find them on LinkedIn, they're mostly a dominant. For some strange reason, that's what happens with dominance. They don't, they're so heads down, especially if they have any, own any process or if they're like Six Sigma or anything, they don't show up and, I don't know why, they don't have LinkedIn profiles. Anyway. Well, because I think they don't want to be bothered by that extra stuff.

You know what I mean? They're, they're so hyper-focused on getting their shit done that being on LinkedIn and responding to emails and posting and sharing is, is, is outside of their focus. Yeah. And that's why I would absolutely see where most dominance, you know, are either, you know, have a LinkedIn profile, but are not very active at all, or just don't have one at all or have gotten off of it in a lot of ways. Awesome, Scott. Well, look, we could, we could keep this conversation. I like the, the, the, the personality stuff I think is, I think let's, let's reconnect here and, you know, six months to a year at least. I mean, we'll stay in touch, but I definitely want to see where this, this personality marketing is going, right?

Cause you, you call it personality based marketing, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's the next level of ABM. I mean, it's a smarter part of ABM, which brings you down into the area where you should be thinking about it. You don't sell to a person, right? Or you sell to a person, you don't sell to a person, you don't sell to a persona, right? And if you sell to a person or persons more like it, you need to understand how they interact with each other. And you can understand that. And that's what drives things forward. It kills them off. It's a combination of people. One quick question to finish it off. And I think this will tease the next conversation. Are we ever going to get to the point where technology understands the person better than us?

So, and when I say this, like artificial intelligence, right? Like in taking the sales rep out of the equation completely because artificial intelligence knows us so well and can read every social imprint that we have and be so targeted that it, and I mean this in B2B sales, not B2C, right? B2C is already done. Amazon, like, knows exactly who I am. Google knows exactly who I am. Google knows me better than me, right? But in B2B sales, do you think we're going to get to a point where the human component of it from a sales standpoint is removed? Yes and no. And I said that Howard's sales summit a couple years ago got a lot of trouble. I think it will take out – I've always said if you want to be really effective as an organization, let your prospects, audience, buyers, customers have what they want.

Understand how they want to go through a buyer's journey and give that to them. Don't interrupt it. Don't sidetrack it. Don't you try to force your process on the way that they want to buy. I think machines will allow us to do that. It will allow the customer to drive the process, which is what they want and which actually is what happens. Much better than a human will. I do think for complex consider purchases, you'll have a human intervention later in the sales process because there's a risk factor that machines can't mediate. I want to throw the chip, right? I want to talk to the expert. I want to talk to – it'll probably be an SME. So it'll probably be like a product specialist or an engineer somewhere along the line.

Customer success. You'll still be a human, but don't just be moved further up into the sales process or the buyer's journey. It'll be much further along. I'll finish with this. That's what Gary Vee – so Gary Vaynerchuk, right? I went to his 4D session and I asked him – because this was four years ago, five years ago when I saw this AI email that was almost better than I could have written. And I asked him, I go, Gary, where does that put us? He goes, don't be afraid of it. He goes, be the last mile. Yeah. And I believe that. Until robots start buying from robots. Like, that's when we're screwed. Like, I'm more worried – I'm more worried – forget about the robots coming to sell. I'm more worried about the buying robots.

You know what I mean? Who can put an AI bot across the entire organization, see where the holes are, understand the vendors that predict that, put out an RFP, have them respond, and then, you know, go through that. Then we're screwed. Then the sales reps are screwed. But that last mile factor of, you know, let the machines do all the work, but when it comes to the human connection piece, use that intel to then be that last mile to make that connection with the person. So if you do that, you're going to survive. And this is the last part that connects to this and why we can say this. In North America and in Europe, maybe not in Asia, it's in B2B sales. And I did a lot of work with Fortune and Forbes on research on this.

Buyers make emotional purchase decisions that they then later rationalize, right? So they use all the rational reasons, but the actual purchase decision is emotional. As long as it's emotional, I want another human involved. I want one in a machine. Yeah. Yeah. So Asia is going to be an interesting use case for that to see if the rational buys from the rational. Because you're right. Like, when rational hits rational, humans don't need to be involved. Don't need to be involved. But when emotions are there, when drivers are there, when feelings, like I want to feel something about this brand, I want to be connected to it, then we've still got a chance here. So look, tell people where to go find more information about what you guys are doing over there at Carbon Design and how they can connect with you.

Yeah. So come visit us at, we're at carbondesign.co. And we are putting up this week, in fact, may have it right now, a whole new learning center around what we call carbon quadrants, which is all personality-based marketing. And so it explains different personality types, how they interact. There's a bunch of information to download if you want to get up to speed on understanding how do we sell the people and understand their motivations and behaviors, which is incredible. Love it. And Scott, it's G-I-L-L-U-M, right? That's you on LinkedIn? Yeah. Hit me up on LinkedIn. You know, I'm happy to have a conversation if you pitch me, right? There you go, right? That's the key, right? If you pitch me, right?

So, and look, this is like, this is one of those things where, you know, listening to this podcast, if somebody's interested in talking to you, listen to this podcast, pull out some of these things and make that reference on a video thing. I mean, that's the easiest way I've ever come across of connecting with somebody, being like, hey, I heard you on so-and-so's podcast where you talked about this. It blew my mind. I'd love to chat with you about that. Easiest way to get a connection here. Absolutely. Yeah. Happy to help. All right. Thanks, John. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining. And look, everybody, thanks for listening as always. And hopefully this one got you to think a little bit more than the other ones in a lot of ways of where things are going and where we need to, as sales professionals, elevate to.

Hopefully you're not going through the motions, right? My audience knows that, you know, the ones who go through the motions are the ones that are going to get smoked, right? So be level up, understand personas, but personalities. And start learning the psychology around selling versus just the numbers around selling. Awesome. And just to finish it up, like I always say, look, even if you're having a shitty day today, go out there and make somebody smile. Because if you make somebody smile, you know you had a great day in the world. Needs a lot more of that, ladies and gentlemen. So thank you all for listening. And I'll see you on the other side. Natural language processing. Why you, why you now and what you should be focused on when you're doing research, as well as the information that you can find out about someone on their LinkedIn profile.

Man, there's just so many valuable nuggets inside this conversation. The follow-up to this is sure to be a smash. So be on the lookout for that. Attention sales professionals. Are you tired of coming into your office and sending the same dull, boring, unattractive emails, but expecting a different result? Well, we've got you covered. Your annual membership to JB Sales is going to change everything, from the research done to the messaging structure, all the way down to your cold call openers and transitions. A JB membership is a game changer for the professional that's looking to invest in themselves. Stop waiting for something to fall into your lap and get out there and prospect for yourself.

You need help? We've got you covered. Join us today at ondemand.jbarrows.com. Also, follow us on Instagram at jbsalestraining, all one word, for daily tips, techniques, and strategies. And join us for our weekly webinars to get the sales skills that you need from our team of A-plus guests that come with the fire to deliver just for you. Our people, our family. Learn more at jbarrows.com in the blog and events section and sign up for our webinars today. We'll see you next week when we bring you another guest to help you sell better. Make it happen, everybody. We'll see you next week when we bring you another guest to help you.