228: Debra Roberts on Effective Communication and Conflict Resolution in Sales

So this podcast you're about to listen to here, Deborah Roberts, who runs the relationship protocol and also the communication protocol and teaches and works with organizations and individuals on how to improve their communication skills. You're going to love what we talked about. We went all over the map on this one, but we talked about conflict and how to approach conflict. We talked about, you know, the triggers and how people react and why people react certain ways and some very, very tactical things that we can do to open up communication, build trust in a very short period of time and really just, you know, giving people the benefit of the doubt these days, which I think we need a lot more of.

So I hope you enjoy this episode. It was a really thoughtful one from my perspective and hopefully it got you to think too. Thanks. What's popping, y'all? It's your man, James Say What Sales Buckley. And big shout out to all of our partners, Sales Loft, Proposify, Salesforce, Sales Cloud, Gong, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. One of the first checkboxes that we have to check off before you become a JB sales partner is that you have to be good people to work with. These companies are full of fantastic people that are driven to serve. So be sure you're checking them out and looking into what they can do for you. Let's get talking. Here's Deborah and JB. Good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrels.

Make it up on Monday. Hopefully you had a fantastic weekend. This is coming out of the 4th. I know you should never timestamp podcasts, but whatever. I don't care. The 4th was nice, but it was crappy weather here in Boston. We made the best out of it. Got out on the boat on Monday, though, which was nice. Not my boat, a friend's boat. It's always good to have a friend with a boat. But back this week, it's a slower week this week, which I'm excited about to get a bunch of stuff done. And I'm also excited to have this conversation because Deborah Roberts is a communication specialist. And I think now more than ever, we have to figure out how to communicate more effectively, especially in sales.

But I think everybody and with where we are, we're going to talk macro economical stuff here as far as why everybody's yelling at each other right now. And we're going to boil that down to sales and how we can leverage this, build trust faster and everything else. Because she's created a couple of things. One is the relationship protocol, but also the communication protocol. So we're going to dive into those. But Deborah, say hi to everybody and give us a little background on where you're coming from these days. Hello, everybody. I am so happy to be here. I am Deborah Roberts. I am a conversation expert. That's the title that I've given myself. I created the Relationship Protocol Communication Model.

And I've also developed online courses for businesses and for personal use called the Communication Protocol. My background is that I have, let's say, more than 25 years as a clinical social worker, as a business consultant. And also, I have trauma training. So I'm also an expert in the field of trauma. And so you can tell that I've had many, many years of field experience with all sorts of challenging relationships. And the thing for me that always came to the forefront was that communication shapes the quality of our relationships. And I deal very much with practical things. I'm the person who you come to when your business is floundering, when you have people that can't talk to each other.

I'm the one who gets you back at the table. Everything from that to lawyers calling me and saying, this company is going to dissolve if these people don't start talking. And within one meeting, I at least get them talking. Or I'm the person who you have to sit with your mother-in-law and your hands are sweaty because you just don't know how to respond. Everything from that to – because it's universal, practical stuff that I teach. So I'm happy to be here and talk about anything that you want to talk about. Yeah. I mean, communication is so critical. External communication, internal communication. I mean, I remember my first startup, Thrive Networks. If I could go back and figure out how we could have communicated better internally, the amount of drama that we dealt with, like, that was just so unnecessary as far as, you know, infighting and all these different things.

I mean, honestly, I think I spent legitimately 50% of my time dealing with internal issues of people just miscommunicating with each other. And so I've seen it tear companies apart. I've also seen it where communication is wide open and it has accelerated companies so well. And I think that's where the focal point is going to be here because with the stress that's happening to everybody right now, right? And let's blow this up a little bit because I feel like we're yelling at each other right now. Not you and I, obviously. But I think in our society, you know, we've gone into these echo chambers where everybody has so dug in with their opinions of whatever it is. And I'm not going to get political on this.

But, I mean, obviously that's the easy example here. But let's talk at first about how do you approach somebody, because I think this is a bigger topic for me, like, how do you approach somebody that fundamentally disagrees with you or you fundamentally disagree with? Because I've tried and I've failed so hard at trying to understand someone else's perspective and trying to be empathetic, trying to share with them my views and why they're my views. But they're not willing to open up to me or, you know, give any room for a conversation about this. So, first and foremost, let's talk there and then let's bring it very directly into sales. But is it even worth getting into a conversation, an argument or whatever with somebody who you were just so fundamentally different from?

You had to start with the hard one. The biggest one. Most people work up to that question. No, no, no. I'm going to start off strong on this one. Right, get from the get-go. Well, because I think it's important. Totally. And I've, one more piece of context here is I don't want to give up on trying to communicate with certain people, but unfortunately for me, I have. I've given up trying to communicate with certain types of people because it's just not worth it. So, help me figure out, help me personally figure out why I shouldn't be giving up and what I can do to get these people to, you know, maybe open up a little bit to me and have a more trusting relationship. I love this question, by the way, because it really is so, it's personal to me, it's relevant to our society today.

It is a much bigger question. I think that we all have a responsibility to know how to be an effective communicator. I just do. I'm not biased. I think we lead a higher quality life when we know how to bring up a topic, navigate a conversation, resolve a conflict. And the things that I teach, which you'll hear in a moment, it's easy stuff. I don't even use four-syllable words, I don't think. I mean, it's really, everybody can do it. That being said, when you're talking with someone who you can tell has a fundamental difference in their belief system, you have to test the waters a little bit. You stay kind, you can't disagree in a way, obviously, that's intentionally looking to dig at them or tell them how dumb they are.

You have to be respectful, but I think in so doing, you get to see how they respond to you. If you feel like you're hitting a wall, which I've been in this situation as well, that's why I'm saying it, I can conjure up an image very clearly. I think you still test it, and you stop what you're doing, and you comment on what's going on between you. This is a little bit of what I teach about how to deal with a conflict. You stop talking about the content, and you start talking about the energy and the shift that's happening between you, so you can say something to the effect of, I really want to have a great conversation with you about this. I know this is a hard topic. It feels like you can't really hear where I'm coming from, and if we're going to continue this, I kind of need you to do that.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. To me, after I put it out there in a kind but clear and kind of a no bullshit way, which I knew you'd want me to say, just to get it out of the way, but by doing that really clearly, you are telling this person, I want to hear what you have to say. I don't agree with you, but I'll respect it, but I'm going to ask you to do the same for me. If they can't, then no, you cannot have a constructive conversation with someone who is unwilling to put themselves, not even in the other person's shoes, but listen in a respectful way. And I think, and so now let's go super tactical here, because I think that's the macro on kind of where we are in a society.

But look, you know, let's take it to sales reps here, and we were talking right before we get jumped on here about how we're still in a numbers world, right, where, you know, you got to make your dials, you got to do your thing, you got to hit your quota, right? And there's this overwhelming pressure there. So say you're a sales rep, and your manager is sitting there pushing down, like, make 50 dials, make 100 dials, or whatever it is, okay, and you know in your heart and soul that you following up with all this is, I don't want to say a waste of your time, but you, like, dialing for dollars and stuff like that. And you want to focus on quality for the betterment of yourself, but also for the betterment of the company, because you think that you have something, a different approach or whatever.

Like, how would you even approach a manager who is pushing down the numbers, and if you made 45 dials instead of 50, you're getting smacked? Like, what would you even do as a sales rep to approach a manager if you're feeling those fundamental differences right there? Whenever you're approaching anyone who has the potential to be a challenging type of person or conversation, the best way to approach them is not from a defensive posture or from a blaming posture or a weak position, but to approach them from the perspective of giving them the benefit of the doubt that they want to hear what you have to say and that they want to have a positive outcome during the conversation. Benefit of the doubt is huge in how I teach and a lot of what I talk about, because I think what you want to be able to say to the manager is, I appreciate where you're coming from.

So you always start by kind of joining them. I appreciate where you're coming from, and you know I work hard. So I'm acknowledging you, but I'm asking you to acknowledge me. Can I try it my way, or this is what I propose and for these reasons? And see if you can get any leeway from them. Sometimes it's the guy in the middle there who really becomes the problem, and everything gets kind of stuck because he or she, they are not able to be open to anything more than numbers game, because that's how they think. They have more of a black and white mentality. So again, it goes kind of back to the first answer that I gave you, test the waters respectfully without jeopardizing your job, but saying what you would like to see happen.

Will they give you a chance maybe to try it your way for a week and see if you can develop relationships that you know will be long-term relationships, that ultimately the value of that customer's ROI is going to be much bigger than the 60 or 80 phone calls you're going to make and not get much return. Yeah, and I think it falls in line with my thought process here, but what are your thoughts about before that happening, doing your side hustle and coming with data? So for instance, what I love that. Okay, because I recommend reps, you know, everybody talks about having a side hustle or whatever. I'm like, make your side hustle how you want to work in your existing environment, right? So make your 50 dials a day, do whatever you want to do, but then from like five o'clock to six o'clock at night, do deep research on 10 accounts and go and then come to your boss with data that says, hey, boss, first of all, like, you know, appreciate what your, the pressure you're being under.

So hopefully you appreciate me, you know what I'm doing. I did a little split test here. I know you're asking for 50 and I did that and these are my conversion ratios, but I also did it this way. And this is what my conversion ratios are, you know, I'd like to do more of this because the output of what we're both trying to accomplish is why. So can we do that, right? I love that. If you have the chutzpah, you know, to do that and you're able to take time to really think about what's the outcome that I want to achieve here and how can I best accomplish that? What do I need to prove to this person who probably is getting pressure from above and or a black and white thinker? And so in that situation, you have to be able to respect where they're coming from.

But if you can provide an alternative that is backed with data, I think that's awesome. Well, and you brought, you know, you brought up another word and there's a couple of phrases I want to keep in on here, but you brought up one about feelings. And I think this is a tough one. I think you talking about your feelings to me as a, this is why I kind of, I know people make decisions based on their feelings and they back it up with facts. That's always true. It's always been true. It always will be true. But if I had a rep sitting in front of me saying, I feel like I should be, you know, I shouldn't be doing this or I feel like this. Quite honestly, I don't give a shit how you feel until you prove it one way or the other.

Right. Right. So, but, but also feeling is a powerful negotiation tool because you can't control how I feel. Right. Like whatever you did made me feel a certain way. So, how do you break through the feeling versus facts and which ones do you leverage and how? I know it's probably a more complex question than I, than I'm thinking in my head, but you see where I'm going with it? I do. I mean, in a way, I almost want more context clues of the kind of conversation, but I think in general, you have to always know who's on the other side of the interaction. You have to know who are you talking to and what do they respond to? Are they a numbers person? Are they a thinking, more cognitive person? Are they going to respond to something that's more personal on a feeling tone?

If you know who you're talking to, that's the best way to start the conversation and to relate to them in a way. But I think you can bring it back to what works for you. As long as you do it in a way that doesn't sound like, I don't like the word weak, but I think when you talk about feelings, it can be seen in a whole different context. So, you do have to know who's on the other side of the interaction. If they aren't the kind of person that's going to be respectful of that, I wouldn't go with that angle at all. I don't think it's safe. And I think you put yourself in a position where they could see you in a less than, so to speak, role. Well, and that's what I think, and you know, obviously far better than I do on this when it comes to women in the workforce, right?

I think there's, you know, I did a we need to talk webinar when I'm trying to get the bro culture out of what we're doing here. And, and the, the, what was evident to me when we were looking for feedback from people about what challenges you faced with right now, what are some questions you want to ask? It was this, you know, it kind of came to like, well, all these little things make me feel like, so it was never the overtly sexist thing. Like, you know, the overtly sexist thing is the overtly sexist thing and whatever, quit, you know, quit and go find another job because you're never going to change a blatant sexist. Okay. But it was all the little stuff, right? The jokes, the, you know, bitch versus that, you know what I mean?

Like, like just using certain words. Yeah, culture. And, and it, and it creates this feeling in, in, at least from what I heard for, you know, in these conversations that I'm not respected here. But for the most part, they were saying, if I came and complained about every little thing that made me feel crappy, I would, I would A, be labeled as a complainer and B, it, oh, you're emotional. Oh, you know what I mean? So, so what about that framework there as far as, and let's be very specific, women in a male dominated workforce who have all these things that are making them feel unappreciated, making them feel lesser than their male counterparts. Like, how do you approach that with a non-overtly sexist manager who thinks that everything's fine?

I think you have to approach it delicately. I do think it's a very sensitive topic, and it's a hot topic. It's one that you have to know who you're talking to whenever you're having any type of conversation like that. You have to prepare for the conversation. You have to know what are the takeaways that you want the person you're speaking to to have. Whenever I'm talking to leaders, CEO groups, for any conversation, I will say to them, go in there, giving them the benefit of the doubt that they want to have a good outcome too, that they want to get along with you. But then, be prepared. Know what you're going to say. And how do you want the, maybe like this or not, but how do you want the other person who you're speaking with to feel?

Do you want them to connect with what you're saying? Do you want them to know you're serious? Do you want them to know, you know, this is not acceptable? What level do you want to speak on? Because there's a lot of options there. There's one to just say, hey, this is going on, wanted to call it to your attention. From there, we move to, if it doesn't change, I'm filing a lawsuit. What are you trying to say? What do you want their takeaways to be? So I think you have to be very clear about what's happening for you, how serious it is, or if it's simply, and I don't use the word loosely because I take this seriously as well. But if it's, they're annoying, or it's bordering on disrespect, or they're just a bunch of goofy guys, it's different than, you know, they're whistling when I walk by and they're being, it's an unprofessional environment that's unacceptable.

So decide the level that you are comfortable explaining and prepare. And in that situation, because it's a sensitive one, I would rehearse and let someone hear what you're about to say and see if they get the impression that you're hoping to accomplish. Gotcha. Because the way you kick off that conversation means everything, right? It means everything. I mean, literally, how you even set the stage for the conversation. Do you send them a meeting invitation, or do you just slack them and say, hey, Debra, can we talk later on this afternoon? Like, anytime I get the, can we talk, like, with no context, email or text, like, I'm like, oh, crap, what's coming? They're going to quit. Something bad is happening.

So how would, let's go tactical here. How do you say you're feeling unappreciated at work for whatever reason? You're doing your job. You're hitting your number. So that's not an issue. How would you even send the email or what would, like, what would you say to facilitate the conversation that you know needs to happen? And then is it, is it a formal structure, sit down type of thing, or is it a less formal grab lunch? And I know it depends on the severity of the conversation, but what would you even say to, to, to reach out? Say you were on my team and you felt uncomfortable with some of the stuff that I was doing. How would you reach out to me after you're doing all your prep to kind of think through how you want this meeting to go and all that other stuff?

How would you even approach me so I don't automatically have red flags and I come in with, like, defense mode before you even start talking? Well, there's many ways, obviously, you can approach and it depends on the company and how people typically interact with each other. Are we in the same space? Are we using Slack? Are we emailing, texting? But the key is to kind of set your intention up front. So, hey, John, would love to have a conversation with you. I've been concerned about a couple of things that are going on, but I think we can have a really good conversation about it. Can you make time to talk to me? I want you to know that it's a serious conversation. It probably would be worded better than what I just said, but you get the gist of it, that I want to talk to you.

And I want to give you a little bit of a clue of what I want to talk about, and I know we can come up with a positive outcome, positive solution. So now you know I want to talk to you, but we're in this together kind of a thing. That's a much better approach. And in general, when you're about to have a conversation with someone that's sensitive or important, always state your intentions up front because that sets their mind at ease. I want to get along with you. I really don't want to argue about this. Say something positive. I appreciate you making time to talk to me. I know the effort you're making, you know, if you're about to let someone go or you want to give them some critical feedback, start with the positives.

I know you've been showing up. I know this job means a lot to you, but we need to talk about X because you want to engage them. And I think that's where I always fall down is a preparation for conversations like that just because it's, you know, that feel, and I'm going to bring it personally for me. Like my wife, a lot of times, like we'll get in arguments and it'll be the little nitpicky things. And we had to go to therapy early on in our career because we're in our relationship because, and thankfully, um, the, you know, I haven't done a ton of therapy, but the therapist helped us label what the problem was. And the problem was escalation. Like, I'm not a very combative person, but when you come at me, I react and I go over you and then you come over me and then all of a sudden we're screaming at each other.

But one of the things that I'm going to use the flip side, women, all these little things, like for me, a lot of times when I explode on something, it's because all these little things have built up. And then when I explode and we'll give me some examples, I have a terrible memory. So my question here is, I got two of them for you. One is, is it good to potentially write down all these little things that are annoying, it's examples of, right, as you go. And then use that as, as data, if you will, to approach. So as part of your conversation to say, Debra, you know, I've been really, uh, I appreciate your time, you know, the intro and all that other stuff. Um, you know, I've been feeling a little frustrated recently because what's happening at work and how, you know, a lot of these little things are, are building up to feed into this bigger thing.

And I'd like to share with you some examples that usually go unnoticed. Like, is that too much as me coming with a list of all the, all the little examples here, is that threatening or is that helpful? I think it's super helpful. Okay. I wouldn't go in with, um, a laundry list of, you know, reading 30 things off of a list, but I would have them all written down because technically you also should be documenting them. If it is something that is potentially crossing a line, but you go in and give two or three examples, quick, brief, bullet points. Examples that illustrate what's going on. And you can say, I actually have more examples, but I, this is not me keeping track for any other reason than it is concerning.

Again, I'm in this, I'm committed to this company. I'm not going anywhere. I enjoy working here, whatever it is. I love this organization. I'm close with the people. However, these circumstances are either not acceptable, concerning, worrisome, annoying. Pick your word. Yeah. And I think that the word choice is actually really important as well. I mean, like how you state that this is why communication is so important. And I wish more people would, would take communication courses, right? Mine, take mine. Right. I mean, even with, even with like Toastmasters and those types of things where it just kind of gives you a sense of the words that you use, the weak words and whatever it might be. So you can become a better communicator.

Unfortunately, mine, I just kind of evolved over time. And I think I'm an okay communicator, but I could absolutely get better by understanding, you know, somebody else's perspective a little bit more by using a phrase that, that is less combative than my typical approach. So, you know, when you were talking before about the, I call it ratcheting up with your wife when things, one thing happens and it just keeps, you can see my hands going up and up and up. The key is what I mentioned before, you stop talking about what's happening. I mean, what you're, what the, whatever the topic is, because we can disagree and bicker. I'm really good at it, by the way. I'm a really good bicker. Nobody does this perfectly well, by the way.

I, you know, I'm a really good communicator, but I stink in certain areas. And, you know, I'm, I don't like conflict. I'm, I call myself a fly girl. I'm out of there. Like, it really gets intense. Thank goodness. It's not often. However, when there's something that's happening, that's conflicted where it's not going well, you have some options. You stop the action and you say, you know what? Can we just call this a misfire? Or I, this is not going, we are just misunderstanding each other. Can we table this and start over? Sometimes that's the simplest thing you can do. Or you can say, please give me the benefit of the doubt that what you think I said, in my mind, I didn't say that. I understand that's what you heard.

Or I understand you thought I was picking up the laundry. Or I understand the project, you know, you wanted on Tuesday. I thought you said Wednesday. Can we call it, can we both give each other the benefit of the doubt that neither one of us made this mistake intentionally? And can we move on? But when you throw in the word benefit of the doubt, sometimes right there, you cut right to the chase and the BS gets put aside. And we agree to disagree because I don't trust my intentions. I didn't do it on purpose. I do this with teams. Corporations, they have huge teams that, that, that are constantly in conflict because they have different agendas for when their timing is. So they're scheduling for different things.

And if they don't talk to each other, nothing works. I had a meeting with 200 people on the line talking to the different teams saying, do you know that when you do this, that impacts them? Listen to what's going on on their end. And now what can you do to turn towards and explain what you need from them? And what it came, what the, what it came down to was now when there's a problem, instead of getting ticked and going crazy and really, as you can imagine, then really not working well together. Now they give each other the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't done intentionally. You have a whole different community going on in your organization when people are trusting other people's intentions versus not believing that they're doing things for the right reasons.

You know, it's tough to keep pressing to build a strong relationship when we disagree. John and Debra are digging into some things that we all struggle with. Communication, staying kind and being respectful and understanding how they're responding to you. It's all part of effective communicating internally and externally. This is very interesting. All right, guys, send me your sales wins. I want to hear them at james at jbarrows.com so that you can be highlighted on next week's episode. This week, we want to tip our hat to Rajan Upadhyay, who attended a JB Sales webinar on staying motivated. Rajan won an annual membership to JB Sales On Demand and has recently become certified in filling the funnel and driving to close.

Congratulations, Rajan. Keep going, buddy. World-class training can be accessed easily with JB Sales. We're after people that invest in themselves, people that want to take their own destiny into their hands. You guys are our people, so join us on the dark side. Learn more about becoming a member at ondemand.jbarrows.com. Let's keep communicating effectively and get back to Debra and JB. I want to circle back to that benefit of the doubt thing, but I want to dive a little bit forward. You said something, and I was going to actually ask you what you think of that phrase, which is agree to disagree. Because I've used that quite a bit, but it's usually when I'm just done with the conversation. I can tell that this person is not going to see my point of view.

It's pointless to argue it. It's usually kind of a mid to low priority issue. If it's a heavy issue and you say agree to disagree, and it impacts me personally or my job, we are, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are going to get to the bottom of this type of scenario. But is agree to disagree a good phrase to use, or is that a cop-out in a lot of ways? It depends on the conversation. It can be a cop-out for sure. I think when it's an important conversation, to your point, we need to be more thoughtful. And when we say that, we are saying we're hitting the pause button now. It doesn't mean we're not going to come back to it. Or we can also say, let's take a break, both think about it, and then come back to the table, or as a group, come back to the table, and try to think of what you heard other people say to see if you can open your mind a little bit.

We have to listen to each other with curiosity, and that's what we don't always do. I call that turning towards a situation. We demonstrate our commitment to the company, to whomever we're communicating with, and we care about how they feel, which means we listen when they're talking to us. And when things aren't going well, if I'm starting to get annoyed because this is going on too long and we're not getting anywhere, before I reach my boiling point, before I say we agree to disagree, I might say, is there another way we can approach this? Because it feels like we're not going to get anywhere doing it this way. So maybe change the tactic a little bit. Yeah, and I think you said something important.

You hit the pause button, right? I mean, I wish I actually have inventions, little dumb things, and I got all these stuff for sales reps from Reminders, and I get things for myself. And I almost want to make an egg timer that's called the five-minute clock anytime or an app that plugs into your phone, that connects to your email, so it alerts you. Like, if you get a threat, you know, if you get an email that you're not happy with or whatever, and you fire off your email. Don't. Well, exactly, right? So what I want is, I want to, because I know that of myself, I know I don't react well when I hit, you know, and I forced myself to pause, but I almost want, like, a little applet that plugs into my outreach that sends it, or Outlook that sends it, but then five minutes later pings me and says, you sure, and it actually doesn't send it, you sure you actually want to send this, John?

Because a lot of times, something I am so passionate about or so angry about, for whatever reason right now, I wake up tomorrow and I'm like, what the fuck was I angry about for? Like, ah, whatever, who cares? So how do you, how do you force the pause button to react? Because I am not good at that. I'm a high D, well, on the disc scale, I'm a high D, I'm very aggressive. When you ask me a question, I usually answer it on almost immediately, and when you conflict with me, I actually enjoy arguing, I enjoy skillful discussion. Right, me too. Because that's, right, that's just, that's my nature. Skillful discussion is different than arguing. Yes, true, true, skillful discussion. But that's the way I learn, right?

And I'm the first one to back down when you make a better point. So help me out with that. Like, what's the pause button? What are some effective tactics that we can all use as a pause button before we react to something where we're in a live conversation like this or an email or anything else? I can't wait to get skillful. Okay. So, first of all, I use that expression all the time, hit the pause button. I say stop the action, hit the pause button, because I do believe that when you're in the middle of something, if you're not sure where it's going, you can feel yourself getting flustered, the best thing you can do before you open your mouth is keep it closed, hit the pause button, and take a breath.

And number one, think, this might not be the best time for me to respond. It could be a face-to-face conversation. It doesn't have to be the email that you got where, you know, you just want to slam back at them. So the first thing is know what happens to you when you're in that state. So if I'm really self-aware and I do something, I call it checking in with yourself. To me, a lot of what I teach also is self-awareness. When I wrote my book, self-awareness is like chapter eight. I wrote it a number of years ago when I created my course, self-awareness is chapter one, is lesson one. Because if you're not aware of yourself and you don't understand what are your hot topics, what sets you off, and why does it set you off, and what to do when you're set off, which I can talk about in a sec also.

I have a whole proprietary system, a really quick thing of how to get out of being triggered. But that's what you're saying. We almost have an irrational reaction to something, and we're ready to, you know, shoot from the hip. Dangerous. So know what kinds of things trigger you. If you know that when you feel like someone's blaming you for something, or they're attacking you for something, or they're criticizing you, because we all react to, or they're ignoring you, we all react differently to different triggers. And we all have very personal reasons for those reactions. So learn about yourself. Become an expert about yourself. When you're doing your emails, and you're just sitting at your computer, and something comes across, and you get ticked fast, you know that you're ticked.

It's your job to make that connection in that moment. And it's quick, but the more you practice this of checking in with yourself, that's what it's called, how am I doing? So you check in with yourself. How am I doing? Am I hungry? Am I angry? Am I lonely? Am I tired? Which are, by the way, from Alcoholics Anonymous. Those are what they ask you to think about, because they want you to stay on track. But what I add to that is, am I stressed? Am I overwhelmed? Am I caught off guard by something? Because that's a big one, too. And so what do I need to do? Okay, that really angered me. I can't respond. I'm not going to be my best self. I'm not going to show up in the best way if I'm super upset.

So I have to know I'm upset and I have to take that break and hit that pause button and think, number one, what do I want to say to get the response that I want? Number two, can I give this person the benefit of the doubt? Here it comes again. Maybe they didn't mean it the way I'm taking it. I mean, and as that relates, you know, at least the tactic that I've tried to use and it's relevant to sales is, you know, layering questions. Because in objections, there's plenty of data out there that suggests, you know, average reps, when given an objection, they immediately jump on the objection and try to answer because they're being defensive about it. Whereas the best reps, take a couple of seconds, think about it a little bit, ask a layering question.

Hey, could you help me understand where's this coming from? Like, where did you hear that about me? So in what I'm doing there is I'm, I'm qualifying your concern or whatever you came to me with. But while I do that, you're rephrasing and hopefully that rephrase is actually the real reason. But I'm also calming down a little bit because instead of answering you, I asked a question to clarify so I can get my shit together so I don't lose it on you for a very specific, you know, and go into the escalation phase. So first of all, that's one of the strategies that I teach, that if you're having a conversation with someone and you can feel yourself getting defensive, ask a question because it buys you more time to think about what you want to say and it gives you an opportunity to calm down.

You couldn't have said it better. That's exactly the best technique to use. I was referring to it more if you've already reached the point where you are not just getting defensive, but you can feel yourself like, you know, I'm going to slam this person, you know, not a good situation. I mean, look, just look at social, right? I mean, you know, there's a quick little example. Some, somebody posted on Twitter, uh, somebody I don't know, I'm not even connected to. And it said, that's it. Um, the, the winner is the winner of the number one troll on the internet is John Barrows. And I'm like, troll. I'm like, are you a what? And so I was about to light this guy up on Twitter. And just cause I went, all of a sudden I went into his history and his background and started peeling all this other stuff, but it was interesting.

And the reason I did a little bit of homework beforehand, it was weird because a lot of what he puts out there is similar to stuff that I would, I agree with. Right. He put out a cup and I'm like, Oh, usually when I see something like that, it's somebody who is like completely the opposite of me. And I can read through their posts and be like, man, this person's a douche. But I took the extra two seconds to do that. And I, then I DM'd him and I said, Hey dude, Hey dude, you know, I have no idea who you are. You know, any reason why you're calling me the number one troll on the internet right now? Cause I, I never, I don't troll anybody. I'm like, I literally post content, whatever. And he came back.

I am so sorry. It was the wrong tag. You were not the person I was talking about. I'm like, Oh, thank God. And I was slacking my team cause I, I took a screenshot and I sent it to Slack. I'm like, does anybody know this guy? Like who the fuck is this? Right. And, and then while I was doing that, I get his email, his direct, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm like, Oh, thank God. Cause I could have potentially made myself look like a raging asshole by lesson. Right. I was like, Ooh, dodged a bullet on that one. Cause I've reacted poorly in a lot of, in, in, in a lot of times, especially on social, right? Are you finding that social is making us less tolerant of, and, and also, but you, is that really a question?

Well, yes or no. Yes or no. No. Well, it is because the, the age old question is, you know, is the internet making us worse or is it just exposing us for who we are? And that, that is a real debate, right? You know, is, is, are we all freaked out now? Like, you know, when I was growing up, um, my parents would let me run around all over the town, 10 years old. I'd be riding my bike everywhere. Now I wouldn't let my daughter go down the street without, you know, she's 10 years old, but is it because in my head I've seen so many other examples. And back then there was no news on that type of crazy shit. So parents were, you know what I mean? So there's how to, how do you, how do you break that cycle?

I think there's a combination of things though, with what you just said. I do think that a while back, most places were not as, um, I don't want to say scary. I mean, times have changed in many respects and things have gone on and having 24 hour news is different and knowing what's happening and that, um, people that are rude to each other can be anonymous. There's a lot of brazen people who, that's why I said, are you really asking the question? That's more of what I was referring to that. There's a whole population of people that are very brazen and awful now who, who have been given a voice that we wouldn't want them to have a voice. And in past years, they wouldn't. So I do think it is different now.

I think there's in many ways, it's positive. I'm not trying to, um, dispute the value of the internet, but I do think that social for that reason. I didn't want to be on social, to be honest, when I started this business, I didn't either. Oh, well, there you go. I went kicking and screaming into it. Me too. Me too. And part of it was, I'm a private person. And part of it was that whole thing. I'm not, I mean, I'm tougher now, but in the beginning I was definitely thin skinned. And when I, you know, I would put something out and hope someone liked it. And if, you know, I would read the comments and, oh, and I think who cares at this point, it's a different story, but, um, I do think that giving voice and anonymity to people who can say whatever they want to say, and there's no repercussion doesn't feel fair sometimes.

No, it definitely doesn't. And, and I think this is where, you know, you keep bringing a benefit of the doubt. I really do believe we've lost that. I believe we've lost the, uh, ability in many cases to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, right. And, and realize that they're not coming. And I actually talk about this when it comes to, you know, when we were talking about women in sales and, and the, you know, the me too movement. Right. And I was having a conversation with these women about how, you know, I, I, I wanted all in on this, but I was, I felt like I was being attacked. Right. And all these different things. And, and, and the communication of it was, it just, I, I felt like I, just because I was a man, I wasn't being given the benefit of the doubt that when I say something stupid that I probably shouldn't have said, but I didn't know any better otherwise.

Cause that's the way I grew up. I'll give you an example. I just learned this weekend, literally this weekend that, you know, how these words, you know, sometimes mean things and oh my God, we find out the origin of them. It's like, oh, we can't use that anymore. And some of them I'm kind of like, really, are you fucking serious? But master bedroom. Oh, I just heard that too. Master bedroom. It was the slave master. That's the reason that you're in my master bedrooms are called master bedrooms is because of slave masters. And as soon as it hit, I was like, oh my God. Right. But I feel like there we're in a situation now where if I was in a group of people and I said, master bedroom, not having any idea, like, cause that's just what it's been called my entire life.

And, and, and somebody just shreds me for, for using that phrase, not giving me any benefit of the doubt. Why aren't we giving people benefit of the doubt anymore? Why aren't we opening up ourselves to allow for that? I think there's not a lot of patience. Things are fast. People move quickly. And, um, I think the real estate industry has been turned on its head, quite frankly, with, with a lot of those, uh, phrases and terms that have to be different now. Um, everybody is much more serious about things. They're much more reactive. My hope, and I genuinely mean this when the whole pandemic hit, um, and watching the shifts, I think that what I do is needed so much more now. And you'll, you'll get a kick out of this in the beginning.

Um, when I've been out in the world, I didn't mention very much that I have a clinical background or a trauma training. I just mentioned that I did business consulting because they said, don't let the business community know that you have this consulting background or this clinical background, you know, it's just not mental health. They don't want, don't put it in your, because there was this, um, you know, it just, they didn't see it together. Since the pandemic, everyone is saying to me, no, no, no. So we know that you understand the, the, the deeper context in which things happen and you've had that experience. So I do think that we're coming to the other side. I do believe the business community is coming to the other side of recognizing that relationships are important and communication is important that having a remote workforce now that doesn't want to come back into work or whatever, uh, people leaving their jobs because they aren't getting accommodated the way that they want to.

Things are changing hybrid companies. They have to have conversations and, and fast conversations and figure out a way to do it respectfully. So I think you start by saying, we are transparent. We're going to let you know what's going on. You have to create that element of trust from the get-go of a conversation so that you can use words like benefit of the doubt, trust our intentions. We're committed to you. We're committed to your happiness. I wrote an article for Inc, um, about, um, a woman named Mandy Ellison, who always says, I'm a crummy communicator. I'm going to, I'm imperfect. She, she does, um, have some difficulty communicating and she tells you up front, I'm going to screw up and, but you're going to love me anyway, you know, and it's a great article and it speaks to what you're saying there.

It's about patience. And if you know that now you're going to give her the benefit of the doubt that she wasn't saying something to be hurtful or critical, you like, you almost put a, uh, I call it the preemptive strike on a lot of ways from an objection hands. And like, look, I'm probably going to say things that are inappropriate. I just asked that you give me the benefit of the doubt. And, and if I need to be educated, I need to be educated. Right. That's right. So the, um, and I, and I think setting that stage and, and talking about your own vulnerabilities is one of the easiest ways to get people to trust you, which is what I want to kind of to end, end this, uh, podcast on. And I think we could go probably hours on it, but one of the topics that, that, um, you know, you talk about is how to, how to get somebody to trust you as fast.

Right. So you just talked about we're in a, we in a streamline, everything's go, go, go, go, go. And now in this virtual world, as sales reps, we used to have the ability, or most of us used to have the ability to go to the office, sit down with you, Debra, sit in your office, make some comments about your kids on your, you know, blah, blah, blah, and develop that rapport. Now that has been stripped away from us. Now the rapport we have to condense, we, it's still extremely important, right? But, but we have to condense it and kind of get to the point. So how do you, and this is very relevant to sales reps, making a cold call, right? I trust on a cold call. I think we can table that, but first actual sit down conversation about your business.

The goal there in that qualification stage is the deal lives and dies in that qualification stage. You ask the right questions, you uncover the right needs, right? And, and so you have to figure out a way to get the client to trust you as fast as possible so that they can open up about what their issues are and be transparent so you can then create a solution. So what are some tactics or some ideas that you can share with us that talk about how to build trust quickly in a situation like that? So I wrote an article called how to get someone to like you in under five minutes. And because being liked, we all want to be liked. And sales is ostensibly about connecting, liking, trusting. How you do that is you lean into the conversation and you connect with their experience.

Everybody wants to know in that, you want that person to believe that they are the most important person to you in that moment. You connect with them. If they're complaining, if they're unhappy, if there's a pain point that they're, explore it with them. You want to connect with what's happening to them. Be curious and open to what they're saying. And if they say something that doesn't sit well with you, you feel that they are blaming you for something or they're unhappy with you, own your part. I don't want you to feel that way. I apologize that we didn't take care of you in the way that you felt or I wasn't able to get here as soon as you wanted me to. Is there some way I can make it up to you?

If I connect with you, one of the biggest things that I talk about in the relationship protocol model is the more important the relationship is to you, the more important it is that you connect with the other person's experience. And when we connect with the other person's experience right there, then they feel connected to us because they feel appreciated. They feel like they matter. Everybody wants to matter. They're not going to purchase anything from you if they don't feel that they matter to you or they will, but they're not coming back. It's interesting because, you know, that's that's empathy, right? It's like actually putting yourself in somebody else's shoes and where they're coming from.

And owning your part. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. And owning your part of that equation. And I think that's the tough part is, is, you know, in our space, you know, you got an SDR who makes a bunch of cold calls, gets a, you know, somebody to say yes to a meeting a week later, AE gets on the phone, you know, and, and it's a lot of times it's a combative conversation because the person's like, A, I don't really remember why I'm here. B, tell me what you got. See, I'm not going to tell you what, you know, reps always, I love this rep start with, well, John, tell me about your priorities for 2021. Oh, sure. Let me share with you all my priorities as a business leader to a 23 year old kid here. I'm like, come on.

Right. So, so the trust, I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with, let's go back to the prep work, right? Is how you like the, the, the research that you did before you got into that meeting, 100% understanding of the personality that you're, you know, look at them on social and are they aggressive? Are they, you know, do they come into people? And so you have kind of a framework. And then I love what you said, because internal versus external, I think it's the same thing, right? Externally, I'm going to set goals of what I want to get out of the, the meeting. I want to kind of have agenda of how I want to see this go internal, same thing with, with dealing with conflict, right? That's right.

It's the same exact thing, doing your research and sitting in front of that person and connecting with them. When you connect with someone and it's sincere, it's not, you know, BS, you're not in there just saying things for the sake of saying it, but you're letting them know, you're listening to them. You want to hear what they have to say, but you have to go in prepared. You can't go in cold with no information about who you're talking with. Yeah. And I think that's a big problem is that people go, and that's why people are labeled as complainers, right? Or is because they come in with how they feel about something, but no data to back it up, no insights, no real solution. They're just kind of annoyed and angry, right?

And then that's going to be even worse because I'm going to be annoyed and angry at you for not helping me understand where we can fix this. And what was, I'd love your perspective on this. There was a counselor, a therapist who worked with a buddy of mine and, and, and his wife who are arguing all the time. They just argued, argued, argued. It was one of those awkward, like never wanted to go over their house because they always started and, and what the, what the therapist said to them, she's, she said, look, I want you for one week to remove the words feel and think from your arguments. You cannot say you, this is how I feel about something, or I thought you did, you know, you couldn't use those words.

And what she was doing was she was saying, look, talk about what's causing those feelings. And that's what it did. It forced them to, and they had the, you know, safe word or whatever you want to call it. And when somebody would say, I feel like you don't listen to me. The other person had the ability to say, okay, there's nothing I can do about how you feel about that. What caused you to feel this way? Cause, and that's, I think the, the big frustration, I think men, women too, is I want to fix, I'm a fixer, right? I'm going to fix things. So I'm going to come up with a solution. Right. And, and there's a lot of feelings that I have a hard time dealing with. Cause I'm like, I can't do anything about how you feel right now.

I'm sorry. And that never goes well. Like, I'm sorry. Like, you know what I mean? Like when you say it up here, right. But I think that's a, that's a dynamic there that is, is a challenging one, especially for people who react quickly on certain things as well. Right. When I'm talking about, um, understanding why we react to things, I, I suggest that you look at the facts. So what are the facts of the situation and what do I need to do to just address the facts and have an appropriate reaction to the facts that I know? The rest of it is a story that we're telling ourself. When you're talking about how you made me feel, there's a piece of like a story, emotional level. It's not necessarily about the facts.

So if I stop and I look at the facts that helps to ground us to be able to have a more productive conversation oftentimes. And this is me recalling back when I was at that Thrive Networks and we were, you know, spent half of our time wasted just arguing with each other. We brought in a consultant and, and, and what he, he said, look, people argue for one of four reasons, uh, facts, methods, goals, or values. So what you need to do is figure out which one of those pillars is the argument. Are, do you agree on the facts of the facts of the situation? And do you agree on that? Okay, good. Do you agree that the goal, you know, uh, of, of what we're trying to accomplish, a positive outcome? Um, and it's usually around the method, right?

The method, the approach, those type of things. So personality types come in. Definitely. Yeah. Very cool. So, um, I think that's, what else do you want to, we'll talk about how you can get more in touch, but what, what other kind of things didn't we touch on, uh, that you think are super important from a communication standpoint? So one of the things that a lot of people talk to me about are conflicts. And when there is, when you're having a conversation with someone and it's not going well, what do you do? And I don't think we talked about that, right? We kind of, I kind of touched around it, but it's really, it's an important skill set to have, and it's a pretty easy one, the way that I teach it.

So if you and I are having a conversation and all of a sudden it's heating up, I stopped the action and I comment on what's going on between us. I stopped talking about the topic and I say to you, what just happened? But calmly, what's, wait a minute, either something like what's going on here? Let's take a break and think about this before we continue. Or I can say, look, I want to get along with you. I don't want to fight with you about this. Can we try it again? Or you, you go first. Well, whatever we say next, but the key is not to stay with the content. When we are disagreeing with each other or bickering, or when it's intense, we always stay with the content. We're still, no, I didn't say that.

Yes, you did. You didn't say thank you. Yes, I, you know, whatever it was, it's always, there's a disagreement about circumstance or whatever, even the facts. It doesn't matter what the facts are in that moment. When we're going back and forth, it's about what's happening between us. So comment on what you're observing. This is getting intense. I don't think either one of us want to go there. Let's take a break. Or I'll listen to what you have to say first. Again, however you decide you want to continue or take a break, that's okay. But the way it stops is by commenting on what's happening between you and then taking responsibility. Hey, if I, if I made you feel stupid, that wasn't my intention.

I'm sorry. Even if I did say everything the person's saying that I said, and I didn't do it on purpose, or I think they're being controlling or ridiculous, it doesn't matter. I don't want to do anything to intentionally hurt them. So if I unintentionally hurt them or unintentionally said something that was mean or not nice, I own it. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that to hurt your feelings, to make you angry, to ruin the project. That wasn't my intention. Let's see what we can do now. When we stop, talk about what's happening and own our part, then they can give us the benefit of the doubt that we mean what we say. We put it in a nice little bow and we move on. That's how you move. You finish one part of the conversation and then you can say, okay, now you tell me what you wanted to say.

So that's, that's a mouthful. No, I love it. And I think, and the one last thing I would add to everyone out there, and I wish more people did this, was you talk about owning it, right? Owning your part of the equation. When you react poorly, you know, it's like you almost have to come back with some humility and say, look, I'm sorry I reacted that way. Can, you know, can we take a step back? And there was a great example of it about three weeks ago. And again, not getting political here, but Biden, you know, Biden after his meeting with Putin, came out and talked to the press. And I don't know if you noticed, but there was one, there was one where he was walking out and one CNN reporter had said like, so how can you call this a success?

You know, blah, blah, blah. And he snapped at her. And he was like, if you don't understand that, then you don't understand, you know, how, how the, how this world works, whatever. Fast forward, he's about to get on the plane. Before he gets on the plane, he comes over to the news group and says, hey, look, first of all, I just want to apologize to that woman. I shouldn't have reacted that way. And a bunch of people gave him shit for that. And I was like, that is one of the best presidential things I've ever seen for crying out loud. Like he owned his poor reaction to that scenario. And by the way, nobody blamed him. Like I didn't blame him for his reaction to that. Right. Cause it was a tough question and he thought he'd already answered it.

But for him to do that, I think showed a lot of humility and I hope built a lot of trust with the news core and whoever he was there with. Yes, exactly. That is actually step three of my model of the relationship protocol where I'll never do anything to intentionally hurt you. So when I do, I own it. And the reason for that, you are, you're the perfect person to fill in the blanks here for me because that is how you build trust. That one interaction can change the trajectory of an interaction and it can change your relationship. It can strengthen a relationship with a customer, with your manager. When you go and you own your part clearly, directly, but in a thoughtful way, not a wussy way, but you say the facts of what you need to say.

You can get your point across and get so much further with someone. They're going to, it is humbling, but they're going to respect you so much more. Yeah, I mean, I think that's ultimately what I wish people take away from this is when you make a mistake going up to it, when, you know, when you get caught doing something like it always blows me away to, you know, I'm not a PR spokesperson here or a specialist in any way, shape or form. But there are a billion examples of when you do something wrong and you try to hide it versus do something wrong. No matter, literally, no matter how bad it is. And you just come out and be like, my bad. I'm sorry. I should be like, we, we are a very reactive society, but I still believe we are a very forgiving society.

After the reaction calms down a little bit, right? I agree. I think we are too. And I think I'll add one last thing. I think if something's important to you, learn how to communicate about it because we all should be able to communicate what we want and need with ease. And if we can't, then we're not going to get our needs met. It's a very simple fact. If you want to have a positive quality of life and healthier relationships and a great working environment, you have to know how to talk to each other. And it's just not that complicated. I'm going to give one more. I got one more thing that I'll throw out there for the audience, but also for your feedback. What I've found is a great way to get people to open up or diffuse a situation or ask a hard question without and try to prevent a harsh reaction is the why.

So when you ask a question, I always say this to reps, the easiest way you know if you have a good question is pretend like the person that you're asking that question flips it back on you and says, why the hell do you need to know that? So you have a good reason for your question. So if I asked you, Debra, can I sit down and talk with you? I'm feeling a little frustrated here. And the reason I want to talk to you is because I don't want to feel frustrated. The reason I'm asking you this question is because, so before they even answer, I'm telling them the reason why I'm asking that question or bringing up that point. And you can almost feel them relax to be like, oh, okay. Yeah. All right. Well, that's the reason you're asking.

Well, let me tell you why I feel that way or I did that thing or whatever it might be. Is that an effective technique from your perspective? Of course. I love that because you're stating your intentions up front. You're telling them that's exact. And that's what I say. Also, you're easing their mind. You can see their shoulders go down and then take that, you know, release the breath that they've been holding on. You're telling them why they want to have, why you want to have the conversation with them. And if they're talking to you and you're all confused and you're not sure what to say and you can feel yourself getting confused or defensive and you have to ask a question, a great way to start it is help me understand.

I'm not following you. Help me understand what you're trying to say. It's non-threatening. It's not blaming. It's sincere. Help me understand. I use it all the freaking time because it's to the point, but it gives me a moment to think about what I want to say and it lets the person explain further, you know, what point they wanted to get to. Awesome. Awesome, Debra. I love the conversation here and hopefully everybody got some good nuggets out of this to get them to think a little bit. But Debra, where can people find out more information? I know you've got the relationship protocol. You've got the relationship, the communication protocol. So where do you want people to go? What do you want people to know?

So I'm on LinkedIn, Debra Roberts, and my website is therelationshipprotocol.com. I have a course. It's a 10-week lesson, 10-lesson course for businesses. It's transformational communication for internal and external support and a personal version of that. And there's some free downloads that are great downloads also on the website. Or there's one called tell me what to say about the three most common reasons why people avoid conversations and how to have them. Love it. Awesome. Well, thank you, Debra, for coming on. I really appreciate it. And for everybody else out there listening, thanks for listening, as always. And like I always say at the end of all these, look, even if you're having a shitty day, go out there and make somebody smile.

Because if you had a, even no matter how bad your day went, if you made somebody smile, you know you had a good day. And the world needs a lot more of that these days. All right, y'all, there's a ton of great takeaways for frontline individual contributors and leaders and managers here. Taking communication courses could make an enormous impact in the way that you communicate with others, whether it's internally or externally. The way that sales communicates to their prospects is so crucial. Learn how to effectively communicate as a sales professional with us at ondemand.jbarrows.com. From effective sales email messaging to cold calling best practices to great openers, we've got you covered.

Communication is a huge focus in the content at JBSales. So become a member today. That URL again is ondemand.jbarrows.com. Would you like to talk to John Barrows himself? Well, you can follow him on Instagram at at John M Barrows. That's at John M as in Michael Barrows and DM him directly. He will respond personally and it could change everything for you. So we'll see you next week. Thanks again for joining us. We're going to bring you someone new next week that's going to help you sell better. Make it happen, guys. Thank you.