229: Alexine Mudawar and Gabrielle Blackwell on Empowering Women in Sales

What's poppin' y'all, it's your man James, Say What Sales Buckley, and this is your weekly Make It Happen Mondays episode with your host, John Barrows. Big shout out to all of our partners, Sales Loft, Proposify, Gong, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. These tools are amazing for your clients, and please make no mistake, the tools that we use as sales professionals are for both us and our clients and prospects. Our partners are great people to work with, and as you know, that is a requirement to be a partner at JBSales. Shout out to you guys for supporting Make It Happen Mondays. We appreciate you so much. Today, we are pleased to welcome Gabrielle Blackwell and Alexine Moudawar, co-founders of Women in Sales Club.

Their focus is enabling and empowering women in the sales profession. If you guys know us here at JBSales, you know that we are huge advocates for all things equality, diversity, and inclusion. So this conversation is one that we are welcoming with open arms. So without further ado, let's kick it over to Alexine, GB, and John for this insightful conversation. Let's go. Good afternoon, everybody. It's John Barrows. Make it up on Monday. Hopefully, you had a fantastic weekend. Mine was decent, but the weather here in Boston sucks. The summer's been raining the entire time, so I'm trying to make the best out of it, doing some cool stuff internally here. But I am super excited to have this conversation with two incredible women who have co-hosted and co-founded Women in Sales Clubs.

So Alexine and Gabrielle, how are you ladies doing today? Doing well. Thank you. How are you? Doing good. Doing good. You know, trying to get through. These days, it's one of those things where you got to focus on the positives, right? Because if you really get stuck in those negatives, you can go down a rabbit hole. So you just have to have that positive mentality. I know, Gabrielle, you had some yoga this morning. So you got in your zen spot. How about you, Alexine? How are you doing? No yoga for me, but I am doing well. I was just happy to be awake before 8 a.m. I'm a night owl. So, but very excited to be here. And this is well worth the early wake up. I love it. So why don't we give a little bit of context here before we get into the topic, right?

So why don't you tell us each individually where you're coming from and then also how you got together for Women in Sales. So Gabrielle, you want to start us off? Yeah. And so the question of where we're coming from, location, history. Yeah, quick little background, you know, like, because you're in sales, you know what I mean? Like give people the little work. Yeah, yeah. Okay. This is not the radio show where it's like, oh, I'm from Schaumburg, Illinois. No, no, no. Okay. No, so I, yeah, my name is Gabrielle. I am an SDR manager at Gong. During the weekday, I've been working in sales for the past six years. I started off as an SDR, have held the seat of an AE, sales enablement manager. But most of my career has been in BDR, SDR management.

So yeah, that's a bit about me. And then, yeah, in terms of how I even got introduced to Alexine, we had been in a few webinars together, I think, overlapped in podcasts that we were a part of. And so somehow the universe kind of brought us together for real, for real, towards the beginning of this year. Nice. I love it. Alexine, how about you? Yes. So my name is Alexine Mudoir. I'm a major account executive at a company called Displayr based here in Chicago. And I've spent the last eight plus years in enterprise full cycle sales. So I'm a total prospecting, cold calling geek. I'll talk about those things all day. But yeah, I've started full cycle. I've just enjoyed the getting to know all these new prospecting strategies that are coming out and getting to know people like John through this industry.

So yeah, very passionate about sales. Love it. Love it. And what, I guess, what was, so you said you were both on webinars together. So you got connected there. What was kind of the connection point where you said we should do something together here around women in sales? What was that story? I think it all, so sorry, it all really centered around some technical difficulties on Clubhouse. Really? Yes. So I can't remember. I don't know if we were a part of the same Clubhouse room. So yeah, this is early on in the year before Women in Sales Club. We must have just been in the same Clubhouse room. And I don't know if we were like text messaging or LinkedIn messaging first. But Amber Alexine was asking me questions about Clubhouse.

And I had maybe two weeks experience on it. So I was trying to coach her up on, all right, here's the buttons. Like you can clap by pressing the mute button a few times. And then I think it was Alexine had actually shared about wanting to start a room. And we were just exploring how to do that together. So then I think there was one conversation that we were having about, it must have been like being the only woman on the sales floor. And when I started off in sales, I was one of five women. I think it was an all-women team. So I'm like, I can't identify necessarily with that experience, but I can identify with being like the only Black person on the sales floor. And so that was our first episode.

So we had this, I think, just joining thoughts, joining experiences and seeing a lot of similarities between those two experiences and being able to launch something from there. Love it. Very cool. And so I think that's a good starting point here because you talked about five, you know, you were one of five women. Alexine, you were one of, right, one. And I think a lot of people feel like, well, I'm going to take that back. I think some men feel that we've come a long way. You know what I mean? And Gabrielle, you bring up even, you know, woman of color, right? I think there's a perception that we've come a long way as far as people of color, as far as women and all this stuff. But I want to focus on the sales and the tech sales industry specifically here.

Where are we right now? Like if you would have rate on a scale of one to 10 and 10 being like completely equality across the board and, you know, the euphoric state that ideally we hope we can get to, which, you know, long way out there. Or one being like as bad as it could possibly be. Like where do you think we are on that continuum, Alexine? I feel like we're in the middle. Like I don't feel like we're as far as some people think we are. And I think about people like Lori Richardson, who's been to almost every single one of our sessions. She's been doing this work for decades. But she's still involved in our club regularly because the work isn't done. So I don't think we're past like a 5.5 in my mind.

And that isn't just for women. That's for anybody on sales teams. I just feel like we're still pretty far behind where we should be. And until kind of the where I walk around Chicago and I look at like the demographic of the folks around me and the folks in my circle, until that's kind of what sales teams also look like, I think we still have a ways to go. And, you know, and even if I look at the last few years, I still was the only woman on the sales team. So that, you know, now we're looking back eight years. That hasn't really changed that much. So that's kind of the reality. Yeah. Gabrielle, what do you think? Yeah, I had to write down some notes so that I stay focused when I talk here. I, yeah, I think best case scenario is probably right around what Alexine is sharing, about like a five.

And that to me is probably companies that are doing well relative to probably the vast majority of companies out there. I would imagine there's been a lot of progress that's been made over the past few decades. I remember being in Portland, Oregon, and I was part of this docuseries that was touching on the experiences that women were having in tech. And I was part of a panel. And so you had, at the time I was 27, we had another woman who was in her mid or late 30s. And then we had another woman who was probably in her 70s, 80s. And so I was sharing about an experience that I had. And the woman who was in her 80s turns to me and she's kind of like taken aback a bit. I'm like, okay, well, what's going on?

And she's like, honestly, I thought that we were, we would have been so much further than we are today. Because like, this is the stuff that I was dealing with 40 years ago in my career. So I think the things that I look at that keep us from being at maybe six, seven, eight, is it's not just the outright chauvinistic behaviors that we would see, such as demeaning women, objectifying them as just their bodies or their physical features. I also think about the kinds of small microaggressions that can happen, the lack of acceptance, the lack of inclusion of the styles that women might bring. So if we have an environment that is very much recognizing and rewarding and promoting a culture that is super macho, very masculine, doesn't accept the feminine side of things, those aspects such as listening, nurturing, curiosity.

And it's always very challenging and very assertive and very aggressive to the point of sometimes being obnoxious. I think you have to wonder why, why aren't there more women in sales? Why aren't there more women in leadership? And so I also started off my, when I started off as an AE, had received this article written by the Harvard Business Review that talked about how women lose their ambition relative to men right around that two year mark into their careers. And this article is also sharing how, like, yes, people are ambitious in the sense that they want to get better at their job. They also want to be recognized in their pursuit of getting better. So I know I've definitely had experiences where even as I'm getting better at my job, there's not a recognition of that.

And then I have to go, actually, is this the place for me while my counterpart who happens to be a male is the kind of person who's doing the exact same thing or less than me. And he's getting access to resources, sponsorship, promotion, opportunities, visibility, and I'm seen as difficult. So I just think about those kind of experiences. The microaggression priest is the part that I, that I always knew was there. And I, I mean, I tell this a lot, you know, I, I considered, I, I considered myself a pretty empathetic male, right? And my mom raised me right. I thought, I thought I was right. And then I had my daughter and I was like, holy shit, you know? And I, and I started looking at the world from a completely different lens of how women were marketed to how they're, you know, all these different things.

And then, um, and then it was, and I'm like, all right, cool. I'm more empathetic now. Right. But then all of a sudden, uh, that, and we talked about this before we got on here, that Grant Cardone thing and, and the whole, we need to talk. And, and that survey where we asked women, Hey, give us an example, um, or ask the question that you're afraid to ask. Uh, and it's totally anonymous because we wanted to see what questions they wanted to ask. Um, and then, but then the other one was, give us some examples of, of like, not the overt sexism. Because that, I think at that point, at this point, like when you see that, it's like, all right, get the, like some woman asked, you know, Hey John, what do I do if I have a like blatantly sexist boss?

I said, quit. I'm like, I'm sorry, you're never going to change a blatant sexist. You're just not. But it was the microaggression stuff. And it was just example after example, after example, after example of these little things. And every woman said exactly what you said, which is, you know, look, if I complained about every sexist thing that happened to me throughout the day, I'd be labeled as a complainer. But the problem is, is all these little things pile up and then I flip on something that might not seem like all that significant. And now it's, Oh, she's emotional and Oh, but they don't see the, the swell of shit that has led to me losing my mind on this seemingly insignificant comment, seemingly insignificant thing.

I mean, stuff like, um, you know, Hey, uh, Gabrielle, could you, could you take notes during our meeting here? Like, you know what I mean? Or like, I mean, even just some of the words that we use. Right. So, so how, I, how do we get better and how do we connect with men who aren't the overt sexist, but don't necessarily know that what they're doing is putting you in an uncomfortable position? We do exactly what you did, which is facilitate a conversation so that people can have exposure to these experiences. I, I do believe at my core that the majority of people are good people. Um, I, I truly believe that. And so I think there is a piece of just people not realizing and, and not to say that that's okay, that they don't realize that they're doing certain things, but until we kind of are able to bubble that up and expose them to the facts like, Hey, I don't know if you're doing this.

And I remember I gave an example, this is probably like seven years ago now. Um, but I had a minute, maybe even, uh, longer than that, but I gave an example and I was talking to one of my meal managers. I was like, I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but whenever we go to a conference room, I go and sit on one side and all the women come and sit on that side of the table. And then all the men go to the other side of the table and no, none of the guys ever come and sit next to me. And I'm like, have you ever noticed that? And he's like, no, I don't think that happened. You know, it's just like those kinds of instances. And so I think there's like little things like that, where to your point, like it, it just will kind of sit with me or the note taking ask, which no one has asked me to do in years.

Cause that would be an absolute no, but I think there's little things that kind of come up over time. I also think one of the bigger things that maybe people don't realize, and maybe this is coming from like the individual contributor lens. You get to a point, you know, especially in enterprise sales where you're starting, you know, your base is a lot higher. You're starting to make really good money. Um, there's like this piece around work, we're paying you. You should almost like be grateful to kind of have the road and like do all this. And I feel like my workload and expectations and comparison to others. And I've been told this directly too. It's like, we expect more of you because X, Y, Z, but I'm looking at a piece of paper and we have the same title, me and me and six other guys on the team.

So where did that expectation come from? And if there is that expectation, what is then the next step? Like, am I then being teed up for a leadership position? Because then I've watched those same guys on the team move into leadership roles while I stagnated and then had to leave that company and restart somewhere else. So I think there's, there's this piece around too, like this, uh, over indexing or over expectation where I very much just want to go to a team and have the same expectation of me that anybody else would have. And then be able to over-perform because when your expectation is higher, that means you're already over-performing and now you have to over, over-perform and it's a lot of pressure.

And so I think there's just a lot there, but I do think like these conversations that you facilitated are Saturday sessions. We have a lot of men that attend those sessions, men that continuously come week after week, and they're there to ask questions, to give feedback, to give ideas. Like it's very much meant to be an open forum. It's not meant to be us. And we've made it very clear, like, this is not a man bashing session. That's not the tone that we're trying to exude here. But what we do want to be able to do is give, you know, anybody exposure to some of these experiences. Because even GB years ago, if she was on a predominantly, um, uh, team that was predominantly women, then she may not even have seen some of those experiences that I had seen that first year in sales.

And so even between us, we're kind of sharing. And then she has a black woman. I can't understand some of the things she's experienced. And so I'm learning and hearing from her constantly and realizing these things. And now I know what to look out for with some of my colleagues if something happens to them. So I think these types of conversations are really healthy and really integral. Great. I love it. So there's sometimes where we like find like little things where we disagree on and it's not a, but it's not a big one. I, because all right, I've, I've heard the whole, like assume positive intent, like believe that most people are good. And I kind of do kind of don't vibe with that only because I've, I've held that thought.

And then I went into a place where it was predominantly not good people. And so the whole time. So it's not to say that that's like that everyone, like I should start being cynical, but I do try and just excite. I'm like, let me just accept people as they are. And what some, something that I think could be really beneficial, like John, you were talking, there's, of course, there's our room, the women in sales club, there's going to be the things that we grow out from there. But if you've like, if you have the content that you have, and then you have the voice that you have, and then you have the touch that you have the reach in terms of training up sales teams. Like, I would love to see it be, all right, we have men who are coming into our room, they're having, they're part of the conversations, they're learning from the conversations, but to bring that back to their workplaces, to bring that back to the vast majority.

And so, because for me, as a woman, as a woman of color, and I'll add in a couple other things, like I went through a liberal arts, super selective school as well. And so, there are times where I think I walk into places, and this is not to sound like grandiose and boastful, but I do run into folks where I think they go, oh, this is someone who's smart, and let's try and like, smack her around mentally. So, like, literally, like, let's have her know her place. Challenge her. Yeah, in an unproductive way. In an unproductive way, yeah. In an unproductive way, right? It's one thing to challenge, like, oh, hey, I want you to grow. It's another thing to challenge such as shut your mouth, right? So, what I, like, something I think is really beneficial is, well, there's me.

I have to develop signals of when I walk into a place, when I see certain things going on, like, I'm like, all right, I have to be super keen. I'm, like, going in there basically, like, am I going to be somebody's prey, essentially? So, I've had to develop that. We're having these conversations, and I think one of the benefits is I can share out, here's what I'm looking at. Here are the signals that I'm receiving, not to say that everyone's going to have that same acuteness that I do because we're not going to have the same experience, but maybe other folks will start to see the same things that I see, and therefore, when I go and I'm absolutely fed up with the experience that I'm having, I have a swell of shit.

I'm trying to be mature and be growth-minded and have that player mindset, right, and prepare a bunch before this conversation. So, instead of me having to do all this work to try and come off as very mature and politically correct, right, and the diplomat. Well-spoken. Well-spoken, unemotional, neutral, not myself, essentially. Rather than me having to do all of that work, what if there was a way for other people to develop the ability to see, oh, wow, actually, my buddy John over here. Not you, John, but, like, yeah, like, my buddy Ned over here is on some bullshit, and I can see that, and I don't have to go over to Gabrielle and have her justify and live out these microaggressions over and over again, knowing full well that I can never identify and therefore can't really support her.

So, I think there has to be a lot of work that has to be done on the male side of things, right? It's going to be conversations, but I don't think it can only live in the conversations that, like, women are having. It has to be great. Yes, like, come have conversations with us, learn, have your experiences, but also, like, challenge your butts, challenge your bros, challenge all those folks, invite them in, and that's how we can learn and grow. And you bring up an interesting point with the, like, there's also that line of ignorance without the desire, there's a desire to learn but not really learn, and let me explain. So, for instance, you know, Black Lives Matter, when that movement hit, there was a lot of, like, Morgan, we had these conversations, like, a lot of his friends would come to him and be like, what can I do to help?

It's like, don't come, like, Google it, asshole. There's a million fucking things online that you could Google about how to be an advocate for people of color and all those. Don't come to your one black friend and say, what can I, I mean, that's almost like, there's almost like an insulting, like, why am I, why, you know, do I have to be the one that you come to to just ask a blatantly generic idiot question? Even though I know the intent was positive, but the, that extra, I think that what I'm looking for is that extra step. Like, don't, don't be the lazy advocate, if you will. And, and, and I think there's a lot of lazy advocates who feel like, oh, Black Lives Matter movement, that was, that was back last year and check that box, we did all right.

Okay. You know what I mean? And, and it's the same thing with the, the Me Too movement. Like the, and you bring up another point, Gabrielle, which is the Me Too movement, which it can't be just women. Cause I'll tell you straight up, the Me Too movement pushed me away because it became a male bashing set. Like I was like all in, I was at some of the marches and stuff like that. And all of a sudden I was getting attacked just purely by being a male. And, and look, I know what was me, right? But, but it made me who really wanted to try and get that extra layer to, to pull back and say, okay, nevermind. I'm not going to stick my head out cause I don't want to get smacked here. So how do we entice the, I mean, I think we're in a world of, of headline readers and, you know, ask the easy questions, look for the silver bullet, you know, those types of things.

But how do we entice the, go educate yourself without being, you know, without being lazy about it. If you know what I mean. See where I'm coming from on that? I don't know if I made that point. Yeah, I, no, I was going, I was going through an experience as you were talking about like the Black Lives Matter movement. Cause initially even what popped up for me was the Black Lives Matter movement was way before last year. Um, yeah, so it's like, well, I know it wasn't, it wasn't to use. I just think about like the, uh, going back to even what Alexine had shared about Lori's been doing this work for as long as we've been alive. Longer, honestly, right. And we're, and we're still here. And so there's been, and, and this is probably not to say that we needed this validation, but this continues to validate the intention that Alexine and I have with the women in sales club, which is we cannot keep having these conversations by ourselves in an echo chamber.

And I think there's many, many rewards, but I think for the kind of favoring the long-term piece of things is having conversations with men such as yourself, with other male sales leaders, with other folks who have, who have reach, who have perspective. Um, for those folks to go in and educate themselves, of course, like what I forgot what the program was called, but like the, let's talk about it. Yeah. We need to talk. Yeah. Yeah. We need to talk. Right. So like actually going in, doing the work, being totally in a thousand percent. Okay. With being really uncomfortable. Um, we did a podcast recently with, um, uh, with Scott Sambucci and he had shared, well, Hey, like it's going to be really uncomfortable.

I was really nervous. And, and I was like, you know, it's really uncomfortable and really nerve wracking being the only woman on a sales floor. Yeah. Right. So I think it's like, we, we have to be okay with sharing the same, like we can, we can connect on those experiences and we can't be afraid to connect on that. Um, and to get uncomfortable and to get vulnerable. And I think it's all the things that most of the time we try and it's not just men, but I even think in this patriarchal patriarchal society that we live in, we try and suppress vulnerability. And these more feminine amorphous experiences. But if we are able to lean into that, I think there is this, this piece that's on the other side of that door, which is like, how much better can the profession of sales get?

How much better can our experience of work become how much more supportive can we be to each other and who else can we start to really invite in and welcome in to be successful in this line of work. So I think there's an opportunity to have an experience of, of being dignified in the work that we're doing. Agreed. Roxanne, did you want to comment? Yeah, I think I agree with everything GB said. I think, yeah, there's, there's a lot of work still to be done. I do truly believe that we are also leaning into that discomfort as well. And I think that's one piece that's, that's, we were talking about challenges actually yesterday of launching the club. We are starting into conversations. We're in uncharted territory too.

We just led a session on ageism. That's going to impact all of us. That doesn't, you know, just because we're in kind of the sweet spot right now doesn't mean we're, we're going to be good 15, 20 years from now. So I think like we had that conversation on ageism. We let, we facilitated a discussion on LGTBQIA plus and sales. Also uncomfortable. Like if these are conversations that we are facilitating, it doesn't mean we're, we're like speaking for them or, or we're bringing. And voices from our community that are really important that needs to be heard and should be heard. But those are really challenging conversations too. And I think that's part of what Gabrielle's talking about is like, we're even doing the work as, as women in sales, in this industry to have even more challenging conversations.

So we're kind of asking other folks to do the exact same work, even just at the level of women, but also in these same areas that we're also addressing our big, you know, lapses in our sales team. You look around our sales team, we are seeing a lot of folks in the exact same age bracket, with the exact same background, with the exact same appearance. And I think that's, that goes back to that piece. Like if we want to have different sales team, you know, if we want our sales teams in the future to look different, if we're following the data, which tells us that more diverse sales teams are more successful. And then we can't just be, the solution also isn't just a pile on a bunch of people and bring them into organizations that, to GB's earlier point, could be really detrimental and unhealthy for them.

If it's a really unsafe environment, if you hired five women into there, and it's a bunch of men sexually harassing them, was that like a, was that a win for anybody? I don't think so. Like maybe those guys, I guess. But, so I think there's that piece too, is like, not only do we need to, like there's, this is multi-layer. Like we need to attract women into this field in the first place. We need to educate people much early on, on what sales is, so that they're interested in it or realize that it's a career path, because I sure didn't. And then we need to, you know, make sure that the environments that then we're attracting people into are a safe, safe environment for them to enter. That they can be successful, that they have the exact same chance of being successful as everybody else that's on the team.

And then we need to make sure those same folks are getting promoted too, because I think there is that piece. And I felt this through my career very heavily, that where we, we tend to stagnate as women on these teams. And we will watch people around us, you know, get promoted that are doing the same work. I've had people get promoted around me where I was above them in sales and I didn't understand. I was writing my 20 page business plan every year. And I'm like, what else could I have done to align myself for a leadership role? And I think in some cases, I don't think I could have done anything. I think in some cases I had to switch the environment. So I think there's, there's a lot of stuff there, obviously, but yeah, we have a lot of work to do.

But I believe fully that we have the people, like the people are here that can help kind of bring this conversation around. And that was part of the reason like Gabrielle is really passionate and we do differ in certain ways. We differ in our experiences. We differ in the ways that we think about certain things. And I think that's very healthy. And I think what happens sometimes, especially in today's society, we, we attract ourselves to the people that are just like us. And even I, I grew up in Indiana. So I was like looking around even like probably like six or seven years ago. And I'm looking at my inner circle and I'm like, okay, like I'm, I'm, I'm seeing my friends and they all kind of look like me.

And I'm realizing we're all having the same conversations and there's never any conflict. And then, I don't know, something in me, like, um, several years ago, I was like, I need to shake things up. Like we're not having, like, I love like a healthy debate, like GB and I debate on stuff and it's not like you're wrong. You, you suck. It's like a very healthy dialogue. And sometimes she'll say something and it just clicks for me. And sometimes like I'll say something and it clicks for her. And I think that's a really beautiful piece of this. So I think we need to welcome in some of this discomfort, some of this, a healthy debate and healthy reassessing of ourselves. And stop like trying to kind of be perfect, I guess, because I think like we're perfect doesn't exist, but we can get better.

And we can do that by having some of those conversations too. So I've got a yes to everything you said. Um, I just wanted to add in this one point, because I remember there was, I was either waking up in the morning or I was going to sleep. And I was thinking about this piece that Alexina shared about, uh, us being able to have like different points of view and different perspectives on things. And they're, but still, it's very harmonious. Um, I think there is at the baseline of it all, a deep respect for each other. And so, and again, like kind of going back to what I was sharing of, um, like, yes, I think there's a lot, I thought, I think there's a lot of really good people. Right. But I think there are a lot of, I think there are a decent number of bad apples that are making it not great at all.

Um, and so I think one big thing is that my opinion and my perspective, my experience would lead me to believe that we can assume that everybody respects differences. And so as we're choosing, all right, who, like, how are we interviewing, for example, what questions are we asking? Um, who's asking those questions, right? How, how do we assess someone's openness? And I don't even want to just say tolerance because tolerance to me still like, you're like, eh, I mean, like I'll take you, but whatever. Right. Um, but like, how, like, how are we really thinking about, um, all right, as we want to, as we have these, like aspirations of bringing more diversity into sales, more women into sales, more fill in the blank into sales, like also looking at the leadership in place, which is, are these folks, people who actually respect those differences and have the ability to maintain that respect over the course of someone's career.

And not just for the season that it is where diversity, equity, and inclusion is the hot topic. How far along do you think we are when you're looking at equality? This is a sensitive topic, but one that conversation is needed around. Why aren't there more women in leadership roles? How can we learn to recognize microaggression and take actions to prevent them proactively? These are great questions to ask, and we're always willing to ask them with others that want to make the necessary changes that create solutions. All right, y'all, send me your sales wins to be highlighted on next week's episode. Send them to me at james at jbarrows.com. This week, I want to give a big congratulations to David Bonsey, Senior Sales Director at Landrum HR.

He attended our live cast and started A-B testing everything that he was doing. He signed up for On Demand and began implementing the strategies and techniques provided in the sales process. Way to go, David. Keep pressing forward, brother. We got you. Get the training that you need to be the best sales rep at your company with John, Meg, Morgan, and many others. The skills that you invest in yourself with are the ones that you carry with you throughout your career. Build the foundation. Create your winning strategy. Become a member of JBSales today at ondemand.jbarrows.com and invest in your own success. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, see, I have a, actually this morning, I have a challenge with giving everybody the benefit of the doubt.

I would like to, but I don't believe everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt. That said, I do believe there are, and I'm trying to figure out how, because there are well-intentioned, uneducated people out there who say things just because. And I'm going to use my dad as an example. My dad, you know, he passed away recently. He's 81 years old. You know, I remember growing up, like, he would use the N-word and a couple of things, but yet my sister married somebody from Africa. My first fiance was black, and I saw him evolve. You know what I mean? Because he grew up in an environment where that was okay with his friends and joking around and, you know, using slang words for, you know, not just the N-word, but other things, too, that was just okay because of his circle, like you talked about, Oxine, right?

But he evolved. And through education, like both me and my sister pushed back and, you know, and you saw him. And then it was, to me, it was, you know, when we were cleaning out his office on his desk, he had written this note in hand writing that said, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. And I thought that was so powerful that I put it right there on my arm because that is real, right? Like, and we talk about the, like, even the approach, so it's almost like this weird sensitive topic that it's, I don't know, male fragility or white fragility or whatever it is, that certain, I want to talk with both of you about, like, what's an approach or what are some examples of approaches where you've come to a seemingly well-intentioned male with an issue and they've been defensive and how that's, and has, and how have you approached it to a way where you've opened them up to realize, stop being defensive about this, stop being defensive about this, I'm not attacking you on this, I'm trying to educate, because that's where I think the balance is here.

And I say that because, I'll give you an example, and I have this post, I'm going to write it, it's called The Context of Privilege. And the idea here is, I think the word privilege is a very dangerous word. I think it should be changed to advantage. And the reason for that is because, and I'm putting myself now in my white male shoes here. When the word privilege gets thrown at somebody like me, it's an immediate, I'm not privileged, I didn't grow up rich, I wasn't given anything, I was, you know what I mean? Like, I worked my ass off for where I am right now. So that's how, so that's why the defense mechanism comes up when it says I'm privileged. Now, to me, what privilege means is, I wake up in the morning and I don't have to worry about what I'm wearing because I don't want to, because I don't have to get sexually harassed.

You know what I mean? Like, there's not a single male out there that thinks about what they wear in the morning so that they don't get sexually harassed. You know, people of color driving down the street and a cop pulls me over. I'm not worried that I'm going to get shot by a cop. I'm just not. Like, to me, that's privilege and to understand that, but there's a journey there that a lot of us have to go through to get to that point of realization of what privilege actually means, what advantage actually means. And so, if you could give me, you know, help me with some examples of somebody like me who sometimes feels attacked, who sometimes, who is all well intentioned and think I'm as empathetic as I can, but sometimes I react poorly.

Now, I self-correct and I say, oh, I reacted poorly on that, but I think there's a barrier there of an approach to somebody without them being defensive. And that's what I'm trying to understand, and do you have examples or suggestions on how women and people of color can approach seemingly well intentioned men that we should probably give the benefit of the doubt because they haven't, you know what I mean? Because they seem like good people without them being overly defensive. The challenge. Well, that's a big question, and my first inclination is I'm really tired of doing that. I know. To be very honest with you, like, I'm really tired. I'm actually trying to feel like, just like, screen myself from having, like, me one-on-one going to someone and teaching them.

I think there's, like, again, there's the Women in Sales Club, like, for the people who are aware. Not teaching. They want to come to conversations. I don't want to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I don't mean, like, teach. I think, I think teach, I mean approach. Yeah, I think, okay, so I'll give, like, you're going to, you'll be my guinea pig here. Yeah, please. So, I, because I've had, I've had this conversation so many times, and it's not necessarily in the professional world. Like, well, it's happened with a boss in the past. It's happened with just people in general, like, walking around, and we're just talking about things. And it's typically the, the white guy who grew up in, who will say, I grew up in abject poverty.

Like, what do you mean privileged? You know, they get, they get really, like, frustrated. And they're like, what do you mean I'm privileged? And so, I guess, I, like, in the past, what I would do is I would get curious about their experience. That was the first piece. So, I'm basically going to share it. It's like, here's what I'm doing. And then my request would be, all right, hey, here's what I actually think the people who are getting really frustrated or who might be triggered. Here's what I think they should do. Like, that, to me, is going to be the guidance here. So, for me, I want to get curious. Okay, tell me about your experience. Like, you're, like, in their mind, they're saying, hey, I'm not privileged because look at all of these things that I did not have.

It's this lack, right? And so, I'll ask them, okay, cool. Well, now you're in this place of now being a VP of sales. How did you get there, right? Like, who helped you? What resources did you have? Then I think as they tell me their story of things, I go, all right, so let's just imagine that there was a Black person who was in your exact same neighborhood, who started in the exact same space as you, abject poverty, all those things. Now, let's think through what their journey is. And I think there's actually, there's an experiential study they did of, like, all right, let's have a bunch of white folks in one lane, a bunch of Black folks in the other lane, and then you essentially have to go six steps forward.

I saw that. That's my favorite. Right, there's certain experiences such as, and I can't recall every single one of them, but you start to recognize, like, even if you're starting at the exact same point, there are certain things that you have access to. Sure, you can call them advantages. That's why a lot of folks, like, from diverse backgrounds are called disadvantaged. Right. Right? Unprivileged. So I think whichever word you want to use is up to you, but the experiences and the systems and the barriers to access that are inflicted towards a certain demographic of people and you being your blue-haired, white-skinned self are never going to have to deal with. And it's not just the experience of, all right, hey, like, waking up in the morning and not having to worry about X, Y, and Z or getting pulled over, but it's also thinking about, okay, well, it could also be something along the lines of, all right, based off your zip code, will your kid actually have a legitimate education?

Could their school get shut down? Are they going to have to go 40 miles away for school? Or are they actually going to go and show up to school? Are they going to have access to public transportation to be able to get to work? Like, what are their actual choices? And so if you have 20 choices, even in that same world of abject poverty, and somebody else has only five choices of abject poverty, I'm curious, what is so frustrating about having 15 more options than somebody else? Yeah, and that, well, you referenced that, and I wish everybody would watch it. It's the study where the guy, it's an open field, and they all stand on the line, and it's black, white, you name it, women, and everything.

He's like, all right, 100 bucks, the race, whoever wins gets 100 bucks, and everybody's ready to go. And he's like, hold still, before you do it, if your parents are still married, take two steps forward. If you didn't have to pay for college, take two steps forward. If you never had to worry about where a meal came from, take two steps forward. And all these things that a lot of people take for granted in a lot of ways, like step, step, step, step, step, and guess what? You know, by the end, there's three or four white dudes at the end, about five feet from the finish line, and all everybody else behind him. And he's like, all right, now go. Who do you think is going to win? Yeah, I've got, there's a story, I'll share one story.

So my, I think my grandfather's story is a perfect example of this. So my grandfather grew up outside of Philly in a, in an integrated neighborhood. He was born in 1937. But even within the neighborhood, there was like, it was all like very, very affluent white families. And in the middle of this very affluent neighborhood is this like small, dense, like help neighborhood, which is all the black folks. And so my grandfather tells me a story of how in school from kindergarten up until eighth grade, he was friends with everybody. He was all in the same classes as everyone. They had the exact same education and this exact same access to things. But as soon as they switched to high school, what ended up happening was he started to see that all of his white friends went into like how I went into all STEM fields.

And what he saw is that all the black people started to go into the more vocational programs. And he had shared, um, so even at like 13 or 14 years old, he thought that was odd because he's like, oh, I'm coming from the exact same place, exact same neighborhood, everything. Um, and when he asked his counselor about it, the counselor said, oh, no, one's going to hire a black man into those kinds of fields. So there's no point in even putting you in a STEM field to begin with. And that, so that starts at 13, 14 years old. I've had experiences like that being a millennial as well. And I thank God I have a mom who would advocate and sponsor for me. And that I went to a school that had a black principal at that time.

And so I think about those kinds of experiences, such as even being given the benefit of the doubt. Not everybody has that. When you think about that compounded over time, that starts to limit a lot of, a lot of access that people would otherwise be deserving of. Oh, I agree. Alexine, thoughts on, on the approach. Yeah. I'm thinking like, I'm actually thinking of kind of, uh, I'm going to answer, I'm going to not answer your question, but kind of answer it. So I'm thinking about, I had an instance where I did have a leader where we didn't see eye to eye a lot of the time. And he had some very specific behavioral tendencies, things like that. So I actually went, um, I, that was the, that, so I started creating these business plans.

I talk about them all the time. They're like 20 pages long. It's basically a roadmap. This is how I'm going to hit my quota for the year. So I started to look around internally and try to figure out who, if, if not this person who can advocate or coach me or mentor me, because I don't know who that person is. And so I need to find them. And so I stumble across one of our C-level executives at the time. And he's like, kind of keeps himself, whatever. And I'm just like, creepily in the kitchen. I'm like, I made a 20 page business plan. Can I show it to you? And he's like, what? And I was like, can I show you my business plan? And this guy was like, I guess. Sure. Um, so, so I, I, I show him this business plan I created, you know, I'm like really young at the time, just like fire in my eyes, fire in my belly.

And I'm like, this is all the stuff I did. And I sit down and I expect for him to be like, hell yeah, this is the coolest document I've ever seen. Like you are a rock star. And he's like, you know, he gives me like, as Gabrielle would say, he gives me like a little bit of my flowers. Like, he's like, this is cool. I haven't seen someone make something like this. He's like, and also here's all the markups I made on it. And here's what I think like you should think about. So he actually helped coach me through like how to, so I put on there for instance, and I do this every year. Like, this is the promotion I want to work towards, or this is the next title I want to work towards. And that's, I make like an executive summary.

That's the cover page. And so he's like, cool. I see you want to be an X, Y, Z role. How are you getting there? And I was like, what? I get, I gave you the document. And he's like, I don't see timeline. I don't see like steps of how you're going to get there. Who's going to be your sponsors along the way for each of those steps. So, so I think about too, like, I guess, again, I didn't really answer your question at all, but I'm more taking it from the angle of when I didn't have that resource. And if I wasn't able to coach that person, who did I go to? And so he actually helped me work through multiple promotions. I had some of my highest paying years with his guidance and he ended up mentoring me.

And so it's like a really incredible experience too, because I think we, we always think about this in the vacuum of like, I'm in sales. So let me seek my mentor inside of the sales org and just the idea of mentorship. And also as women, like we tend to seek out other women in mentorship. And we definitely don't tend to go to the C-level executives. And I think in my naivety at the time, it worked in my favor. And I realized that you do have access to these folks. You need to come prepared and really bring something to the table. But like, you do have access to those people. So I think that was a really interesting sort of life lesson. And we're still connected, but I just remember so vividly that experience of like showing him this and be him being like, all right, now we're going to go through all the tough questions and I'm going to help coach you up.

And then you're going to get this role and I'm going to be here cheering you on. And you don't even have to tell anybody we talked. I'm just going to coach you. And I was like, yes. Ooh, Alexine. I love that. I love that approach. I've actually started to do that recently. And I think a lot of that is informed by like Alexine's story. Even as you were asking the question before, John, I was thinking about like, if I as a woman can't get through to you, I'm just going to go around you. And I'm going to go and find the people who can either help me, like help me get a promotion or help me know how to like that. This is going to be my form of managing up now is actually going to your boss if I can't get through to you.

Well, and I think that's a powerful thought. And look, I talk to reps all the time about, you know, in general, I don't, regardless if you're a rep, going to your executive suite and looking for, like if you're selling to CFOs, go knock on your CFOs door and say, hey, what do CFOs do? Could you help me? And that's a telling thing. Their reaction to your approach is a telling thing about the organization you live in, right? Because if they are open, I mean, I don't know an executive out there personally who wouldn't be overly welcome. And I don't care how big the company is. If some rep who just started at my company knocks on my door and says, hey, John, you're a CEO, man. I'm trying to sell to CEOs.

What's a day in the life of a CEO look like? Could you help me understand that? And I say that just from general. You become the top on the list as far as people, because I'll be like, holy shit, this kid cares enough, right? And so if we double down on and have that be a woman going up and asking and skipping those steps of the frontline managers who might be, you know, kind of, quote, unquote, putting people in their places and those type of things and saying, screw it. I'm looking for just a general education here, but it also determines, is this a company I actually want to work for? Yes. Right, because if the reaction from that executive level is go, go do your role, go do that and don't, you know what I mean?

Then that's probably not a place that you ultimately want to build your career in. 100%. 100%. Yes. So I love that. So, because I did want to get tactical on that. And I think that is a tactical thing where it's like level up, but level up in a way, not help me, but help me understand, right? Your role, how, you know, those type of things, but don't go with ignorance either. Don't be like, oh, how'd you get to where you are in your career today? Look on LinkedIn and have some contextual questions, but coming with a very thoughtful approach of, hey, help me understand these type of things and doing it in a non, oh, I'm going over my boss's head approach here. It's because you're doing it to educate yourself on the business, on the role, on the thing, and then hopefully that leans to more mentorship, more realization, more exposure that will hopefully even the playing field a little bit more as we move.

Yeah. And guess what happens? It's one of those two where now it comes time for promotions. And now I have my CFO saying, hey, like we're, you know, just curious what happened with this promotion or why did this person get chose? You create your own executive sponsors. And I think for women in this field, we've kind of had to grow accustomed to doing that as well. So I think, um, I think that's a big piece too, is kind of owning that. And it's, it's not necessarily like, I don't know the word fair. I don't like the word fair, I guess, but it's, it's one of those things like I've just grown accustomed to, because if I'm not going to, if my direct manager, for instance, isn't going to be my support system or isn't going to be able to advocate for me for whatever reason, maybe because they don't know any better, maybe because they choose not to, then who else internally can advocate for me?

And if the answer is nothing, then as my good friend GB says, I vote with my feet and I'm getting out of there and I've done that before. And I will definitely do that again if I need to, but I think that's a big piece as, as a woman in sales. And I think one of the, I guess, one of the last things I would say here too, is this is a reason I think a lot of women in this field have also sought out like outside communities, outside mentors, because they're not finding a lot of that support system internally. So what that was, you know, that's one of the main reasons, like I started to seek out these outside communities, like I'm Amy Bullis, Scott Lease, both mentor me, you know, both of them, John, I mean, both, you know, both of them, but like very different styles.

And so there's very different advice coming, like Amy is a little bit more nurturing, but she, she has like a very swift tongue as she called it. So like, she can be really tough too. Scott, he's like great when I'm talking like money conversations, like he will just like berate me via text. And then I'm like, yeah, I do want that much money. So, um, so I have the two of those voices, but then I have all these, uh, extra communities, Thursday night sales, women in sales club. And that for me kind of like satiates my appetite for some of that outside support system. And I think not, not even just for women, just for people in general, after the last year that we had, I think that's a really important thing.

And that's why we've started to see all these communities and conversations start to really bubble up because we all are looking for something outside of our kind of direct bubble at work to, to help us and to coach us and to make us better. So, yeah. Yeah. I love it. Um, last, uh, question I have, well, I got millions of them, but, um, but let's end on this. What are some major blind spots, um, that I have? And I say that because blind spots, when I was saying earlier about how I thought I was empathetic and then I had a daughter blind spots about how we were marketed to and all that other stuff. And then, you know, I read those comments and there were blind spots of the microaggression. What other major blind spots do you see people like me have?

Um, I think, I think of a quote, actually, Scott Lee said this, I'm not going to like misquote him, but he said something around it. I guess this goes with the theme of what I said earlier, allowing women the same autonomy that you would allow for men to make mistakes in their role. And I think for myself, at least, I guess that's like one of the biggest blind spots that comes up is this, this expectation of being so much better than like we, you know, whoever is better should win out in the role. But like some person shouldn't have to be at 300 while the other person's at 100 and then watch person at 100 kind of went over. So I think just that, um, allowing women that same autonomy and specifically in leadership, in a leadership capacity, I think too, was where that, that quote came from.

Um, but I really liked that I kind of stew on that a lot because I think about that, the fact that, um, you know, if I am to make a mistake, I think about kind of the aftermath of that mistake or kind of like what I go through in that. And then sometimes I'll watch counterparts make a similar mistake and there's no conversation or there's just, it's just like, oh, you, you messed that up. And so I think just that autonomy piece is, is really key. That's, that's, that's a blind spot for, for all leaders to look out for. I agree. I think there's one more I'll add in here. Um, and I think a lot of this is influenced by being at the intersection of women of color, specifically black and being, yeah.

And women, um, is, uh, there for me, there's an experience that even if you're another black person, like you're like, you're not black, but you're not a black man. But like, there's, um, there's an experience that like, I'll have that probably nobody else that I work with is going to have. And so from this, even though, uh, someone who's in a leadership, it's a, somebody in a leadership position and you really like them, that's a, your direct report. And even if that person is really effective at working with another man, that's the same way of motivating that man might come off as abrasive offensive. And if anything triggering for me. So I've definitely run into situations where I'm like, Hey, this to me, this is, this is coming off as like disrespectful, insulting, um, patronizing, condescending.

And they're like, but you're, but you're performing though. And I go, I'm performing in spite of this person. And that's not sustainable. And I've been in situations in the past, um, where it definitely, that experience took way more away from me than it ever gave me. So I, I think there is this piece of, even as we want to welcome in more diversity into the sales. I think, I think specifically around women, I think about women of color too, is, um, is like that those kinds of folks are likely not going to respond well to the same kinds of leadership. That were the main styles of leadership, like 10, 20 years ago, which is like command and control, uh, your boss is your customer kind of thing.

And they can kind of do and say whatever they want to you. Um, so I, I think one big blind spot is also thinking through as our front lines change, what is requirement in term of leadership changes and being in demonstrating a variety, a diversity of leadership styles and motivation tactics with those kinds of employees. Um, otherwise, yeah, you risk creating what would be a toxic environment for that person. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's enough to go, Oh, Hey, well, it was just that one person that didn't work out. Cause as soon as you introduce anybody else, who's not from the normative culture, like they're going to, they're like, you're not going to, you're going to have a huge retention problem with that kind of, with that kind of talent.

So I, I see that as a really, really, really big blind spot that most leaders have is, Hey, like our organization is performing. Like, what do you have to complain about? You're hitting a hundred percent. I'm like, yeah. And I hate every single second of it. I think you're, you're spot on with the, despite, you know what I mean? You succeed despite those things, not because of those things. Like there, there is a misconception out there that, Oh, I push you hard and I, you know, tough love and that type of thing. And it's getting you to that next level. It's like, no, you're really just pissing me off and make me angry. And I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, it's almost like I, and I've had this for me, just a couple of bosses who I fucking hated.

And, and I put the chip on my shoulder of, I'm going to beat you just because, and it never works out. You know, I got fired from Staples because I got the chip on my shoulder because I was like, fuck you. I'm going to succeed despite you because all the bullshit and it had nothing to do with obviously women or people of color type of scenario. It was just big company buying me and then treat, and I don't fit in the corporate world. And there's a reason that I'm my, uh, you know, my own boss here is because I, I, I broke everything in every management group, every team I was with. Cause I just thought it was all bullshit. The way that you talk about Gabriel is as far as management styles or what you're supposed to do and how you, you know, and, and those types of things, they just don't fit.

And so that's why I actually really hope more women, not even just get into sales. I hope more women get into sales. And that's kind of why I wrote my, you know, my book with my daughter is to get more women in sales. But I hope more women become entrepreneurs because leading their own charge and, and, and carving their own path without looking for permission from other people, I think is, is the ultimate equalizer, which is part of me, why I'm a little bit encouraged about what could come out of COVID. You know what I mean? Is, is a more of a realization of what's important, uh, how to treat people right about how mental health matters in a lot of ways for, for not just, you know, people who are overtly challenged with that.

But the underpinnings of it, and I, I hope this is kind of a, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll move from 5.5, Alexine, to, to maybe, maybe six here, you know, in a, in a, in a year or so. Right. And, and, and we just keep making progress, but I appreciate you both here for coming on and having this conversation. Is there anything like anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't, and I'm sure we could talk for hours, but is there anything, any points? And then I'll, I'll ask where people can go. But, um, Gabriel, any last points that you wanted to make to the audience here? Um, things to think about what to do, any of that stuff before we wrap things up? Honestly, I've loved this conversation.

If I had like one ask, it's like, all right, as you're doing trainings, maybe have one part of this as part of it. I don't know. I don't know. Like you've, you've got to reach, you've got leaders, like everybody you want to have these conversations with. If you're, I already know, you know, Nate Vogel from Gong. I had, I had a little, I had a meeting with him yesterday. And so, yeah, yeah. So, you know, like, I, I think that there is, I think there's an opportunity to, to think through, um, I think about manager and leader development. Of course, I think about culture. And a lot of that is, is going to be shifted and changed by the way that we talk, by the way that we train, by the way that we enable, and by the ways that we hold people accountable.

Right. So, um, I, I, I'd be, if you wanted to do something awesome, you could figure out a way to weave that into your, your service delivery. I will. Absolutely. You know what? I'll, I'll chat with Morgan about it and see how, cause we're evolving our content all the time. Um, and there is, you know, I do do at the end of all my trainings, kind of a little with the book and, and that, that whole thing is about, you know, elevating the profession of sales, getting more women into sales and charities. So I'd try to touch on kind of three topics there just, but it's just right at the end. Um, I'll, I'll absolutely sit down with Morgan and talk about how, how we can, without, without it being a check the box thing and, you know, come across as, you know, holier than thou type of an approach from my perspective, but to really integrate it in a meaningful way into the content.

And to open people's eyes, I will absolutely have that conversation with them. Awesome. And you have us at your disposal. So we're happy to help any way we can. Oh yeah. I think from my side, um, I guess one of my main takeaways is seek out people with different perspectives, different lived experiences than you. Um, this friendship that I've grown and now business partnership with Gabrielle has been incredible and I've learned so much in just a short, short span of time. So I think about that on a, on a greater scale of who have I not gotten to know yet, what are their experiences and how can that then, you know, make me a better person, make me more well-rounded and also help me understand people better and understand their experiences.

So I think, um, seek out those uncomfortable conversations, uh, uncomfortable conversations, the people that are different than you, um, different perspectives. Like don't just stay with kind of the, the thing that you're used to, because there's no progress there. You're just kind of sitting in your echo chamber. So get out there and get uncomfortable. That's where the good stuff happens. Well, and growth doesn't happen unless you're uncomfortable and period. Right. I mean, I use the analogy all the time of like going to the gym, right? If you go to the gym and you come home and it doesn't hurt, it wasn't really a good gym session. You know what I mean? But if you go to the gym and you come home and your legs are all wobbly and you can barely walk up the stairs, like you built some muscle there, something happened.

So you have to get uncomfortable in order to improve, to get better, to evolve. And if we're not evolving right now, in my opinion, we're dying. You know what I mean? Like if we don't, if we don't keep moving forward here, as far as progress and those types of things, then it, like I said earlier, you know, focus on the positives versus the negatives. Because if you focus on the negatives, there's too many of them to take you down that rabbit hole. But if you just try to just get a little bit better every day and open up your mind to some new ideas or talk to somebody who has a different perspective from you, but seek to understand as opposed to chastise or argue with, I think we'd be a lot better place right now.

But we're, you know, baby steps, I guess, right? Yeah. Yeah. We're pre-towards the six now. Exactly. Hopefully the next time I talk to y'all and, you know, let's, let's circle back in about a year or so, but hopefully, hopefully we'll, we'll talk about, you know, maybe it is a six, maybe, you know, hopefully, or at least shed me at least a 5.6 instead of a 5.5. Like at least, hopefully it's just going backwards. Right. Um, awesome. Well, uh, how can people find out more about, uh, women in sales club, tell it, tell everybody where to go and how they can support it. Yeah. So we just launched a LinkedIn page. So we're trying to drive some traffic that way. Um, so it's under women in sales club.

Um, we also have our clubhouse room from two to 4 PM central time. Every Saturday, we're having different discussions, different topics, um, same name, women in sales club. And then feel free to follow Gabrielle Blackwell, um, and myself, Alexi Mudoir on LinkedIn. We'll be posting out all upcoming events too. So lots of new stuff on the horizon, lots of exciting things. John, we have some ideas for you. So stay tuned. Um, but we have to jump on that clubhouse or whatever you want. I'm happy to jump in and help out wherever. We'll bring you into some, we have ideas. So lots of new stuff on the horizon. Make sure you're staying tuned into any of these updates that we have and hope to see you all there.

Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for this conversation. It's an extremely important one that needs to keep going and, and keep getting louder. So I appreciate everything that you both do here. Um, I'm going to try to keep my blind spots to a minimum as much as I possibly can. But if you ever see a blind spot on me, please don't hesitate to reach out and tell me. Um, so anyways, uh, thank you all for listening. Hopefully this got you to think a little bit and take a little bit of a different approach, uh, and do something to help us progress, uh, in both of these areas that we discussed today. And like I always say, uh, you know, even if you're having a shitty day, uh, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Cause no matter how bad your day goes, if you made somebody smile, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that these days. So thank you all very much for listening. I'll see you on the other side. It's true. We can't be afraid to confront the issues when it comes to gender equality. The things that we let slide are the things that snowball and become so much more than they could have been when we don't have the conversations and educate others. This doesn't have to be a hateful conversation. It's a choice to change. So much greatness in this talk. And thank you so much again for joining us for it today. As always a foundation of sales, best practices is available to you at on demand.jbarrows.com where you'll find all of our training tips, podcasts, webinars, and so much more.

Join us and get the sales training that you need to hit quota and drive results for your clients and prospects. JB sales is proud to serve frontline sales reps and their teams. And we look forward to seeing you there. That URL again is on demand.jbarrows.com. Would you like to talk to John himself? Follow him today at John M. Barrows and DM him. He will respond personally and this could change everything for your growth path. See you next week when we bring you some more sales guests to help you sell better. Make it happen, everybody.