42: Learning from Your Losses

Thanks for listening to the Make It Happen podcast. Make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you enjoyed the show, let me know by leaving a review or sharing your favorite episode with your team. Good morning, everybody. This is John Barrows with Make It Happen Mondays on a brutal Monday morning here. For me, as a New England Patriots fan, we took a hard loss. Hopefully, everybody was entertained by that awesome game yesterday, but we took a loss on that. And I'm actually interested. This was a very timely Make It Happen Monday because I'm here with Ryan Sorley from Double Check, who does win-loss analysis. And so I thought this was a very timely thing. We set this up last week.

Ryan and I connected. And I said, hey, win or lose, this is a good time to connect to talk about this. I know probably most of my fans are reveling or the non-Patriots fans are reveling in my anguish right now. But Ryan, thanks for coming on board here. I really appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me. It was brutal. Being from Boston as well, it was sad to watch. I was flying down to Florida. So I was watching the game on a screen about this big. And it was just as painful as if it was on a big screen. But a few key plays could have changed the outcome, as it always does. But unfortunately, for us, it went to Philly. Yeah. And like we were talking about beforehand, man, just to get it out of the way, as brutal of his loss as it was, I didn't take it nearly as hard as I usually do.

Because we have been obviously pretty spoiled here in Massachusetts, in the New England area for a while now. And I feel really good for Philly, even as obnoxious as their fans are. I feel good for them for getting their first Super Bowl. So congrats to Philly. They play. I'm not going to take anything away from that game. That was an incredible game that they played. Play calling, execution, everything. And I think it just really leads to our conversation, Ryan. And talk to me a little bit about, because you used to work. Give me a little bit about your background, or the audience a little bit about your background. Because I know there's Gartner. But the reason you started DoubleCheck and what you guys are doing right now, I think, would be really interesting.

And then we'll lead into the conversation about those win-loss analysis. Yeah, great. So I spent about 15 years in the research space, most recently with Gartner, prior to that, Forrester, other companies like that. And my role was a salesperson. And then over the years, moved up to a sales VP. So I led a team of salespeople who were constantly out there selling Gartner services. And during that time, we worked with the end users of organizations, people who are buying technology. So the people that you're selling to today, your audience is selling to today. And what we found was that people were coming to us looking for advice on which vendor to go with. And we were providing that advice. And then the buyers would come back to us.

And they would just complain about them, how the salespeople weren't listening to them. The product sucked. The pricing was crazy. And unfortunately, with our setup between nondisclosure agreements on the buyer's side and nondisclosure agreements on the seller's side, we couldn't then go back to the vendors and tell them how to fix the problems that the buyers had brought to us. So I decided there was an opportunity there. I stepped out. And that was about four years ago. And as a group, we're about 15 people. Now we bridge that gap. So we conduct interviews and analysis with buyers who have recently made the decision to work with our clients or work with their competitors. And we provide them with deal sheets.

So as it relates to the game yesterday, it's kind of like the replay of the whole entire game where everybody can kind of look at it, figure out what they did well, figure out where they dropped the ball, no pun intended, but where they could improve upon the next time to be more effective in the field. I love it. Yeah. And I mean, just to rub more salt on this one, you know, let's keep this analogy going. Like, you know, if you're, you know, if you're Bill Belichick, so, so there's two people, well, everybody I think is looking at, you know, from a team standpoint is looking at what, you know, yesterday, I don't know if they all, I assume for the Patriots, they literally immediately get back into the game game room and start looking at, and, you know, Tom Brady is already looking at film here, but, you know, some, some other teams might take a breather and say, okay, that, that sucks.

You know, let me come back to that in a month right now, but talk to a, talk to me about from a team perspective, like who's looking at what right now, like Tom Brady versus Bill Belichick versus Robert Kraft. Because I want to make those analogies from the organization standpoint of, you know, the CEO, the VP of sales, and then the sales rep here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so clearly Tom Brady's looking at himself, right? He's the first thing he's doing is he's scrutinizing what he did. So as it relates to a win loss analysis report, it would be Tom reading through the report and looking back at what happened, you know, things that maybe he noticed because he, based on his, his placement in the field, but maybe things he didn't notice that were going on.

Maybe there, there was somebody out there. Gronk was wide open and he threw it, uh, to somebody else and, and, you know, lost an opportunity to score a touchdown. So, so that's what he's doing. He's looking at what he could have done differently or, or better. Um, Belichick, he's looking at kind of the whole team, right? He's looking at all the players, uh, offense, defense, and he's looking at how his strategy was executed is what he's training the team to do. Well, are they, are they actually doing it? Um, what plays may have made the difference between winning and losing the game? You know, those, those tipping points in the game. Um, and then craft, you know, he's looking at, you know, what changes they may have to make, what acquisitions they may have to make.

Do they have to invest in new players? Like, like a company would need to invest in new products. Do they need to get a deeper dive into the competition? Like company would need to build better battle cards or really understand how they compete out in the marketplace. So it kind of trickles all the way up in each player, which would be like the salespeople in this case, right? They all want to know how they can improve on an individual basis. So that individual, um, view of how they did in the game is really important to them. But yeah, then it trickles all the way up to the money man to figure out where they should be spending to improve their chances of winning next year. Yeah. And do they have the right people on the bus?

I think that was the kind of the big thing that I looked at last year with the, were the off season of the past. Like, you know, they made all these moves and they stacked up, they won the Superbowl last year. And it looked like they made all these incredible moves that was going to put them to 18 and Oh, this year. And all that other crazy. And then they came out of the gate and they got punched right in the mouth, like three, four times like, Whoa, wait a minute. So that was obviously, you know, the wrong perception there. But, um, you know, and then the coach along the way manipulated those pieces to put them in the position to be where they were. Right. But I think it, I love the, the bill Belichick do your job mentality.

Right. Which is, you know, he puts the game plan in place and now you go execute. Right. And, you know, and if we talk about that as it relates to sales, um, you know, what should a rep we'd be looking at? So, so let's, let's forget about the football stuff for hopefully for a while now. Um, but, but, but as a rep right now, you know, I've always learned way more from my losses than my, than my wins. Right. And, and one of the things that I always do, and I train on these techniques, right. Closing techniques, right. It's not about like, you know, stuff something down your throat, but there's one close out there called, uh, the, the doorknob close or, or some people call it the, uh, Columbo close, which is after you lose a deal, you know, that's when the, the client, you know, when the client tells you, sorry, we've gone in a different direction, that was the hard part.

Right. So they, they came out there and they said, Hey, sorry, we've got it. And so now their guard's down a little bit and you as a rep can come back in and say, Hey, just for my own like personal and professional development here, could you help me understand what really happened here? Cause they're usually going to tell you, Oh, you were too expensive or whatever that's, you know, for very surface level deal. But then when their guards down, you come in and, you know, sometimes they open up a little bit and I, and I say probably one out of five, um, will tell me some really good stuff that actually was more valuable than I ever learned that I over would have got from winning the deal. Right.

So help me understand like, what should a rep, what outside of a client giving them feedback and maybe we can talk a little bit about what questions should they be asking to help uncover that. But from their perspective, like what should a rep be looking at as far as a deal is concerned to say, how can I learn from this? Well, I think, I think it does actually tie right back to the questions and how they ask the questions, but sales performance is just one piece. And if we're talking about sales performance, what we hear from buyers is they're looking to rate salespeople on a number of different areas. The first is how authentic they were, believe it or not. They want to know that the salesperson was honest with them, was straightforward, that they trusted the salesperson.

Empathy is another one. They want to know that the salesperson wasn't just trying to close a deal. It wasn't a transaction based approach to bring on new clients, but they took the time to really step into the shoes of the buyer and understand their situation and feel for them. Right. So that's, that's another area. Communication is really big and communication may have to do with things like how responsive was the sales rep, but it may have to do with how clear and concise they were. Did the communications align well to the questions that I was asking? Was there, was there a listening that was going on? So there's a number of different buckets that align to how the, the buyer views the salesperson.

Then there's all this other stuff around product fit, you know, how the solution was presented. Pricing model does kind of tuck in there, but it's usually not the reason why somebody's choosing one company over another. There's also competition. So we can move into the questions a bit, if you'd like, John. Well, actually, yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to talk about those, but let me ask you like, what is, cause that, cause if you were to bucket, like pricing product fit and then sales rep, empathy and all those things that you do, what's the, have you, do you see a consistent reason why reps lose deals? Is it, is it because the empathy and they didn't care or is it because of the product fit or is it because of the pricing?

Like, is there one that you, out of all the analysis that you've done where you're like, yeah, this one's actually higher weighted in most cases than these? Yeah. So I'll kind of answer, answer that question in three parts. The first is we have, I have plenty of examples of companies who chose a provider in spite of the salesperson, right? So the salesperson is getting recognized. Hey, great job. You know, you're the number one rep this quarter. You close the biggest deal may have nothing to do with the sales rep. In fact, the sales rep could have been a total pain in the ass during the process. They could have been constantly, you know, going after the person, calling them on the weekends, calling their boss, doing all the wrong things.

But maybe that buyer had a previous relationship with that company. Maybe they have a best friend who really believes strongly in the solution. So I think there is understanding how the sales rep, you know, played or didn't play into the ultimate decision. On the flip side of that, as you would imagine, we hear plenty of stories about how our client salesperson was the best salesperson. They were most professional responsive, but it wasn't a good solution fit. So no matter how much that particular client, or sorry, salesperson pushed that solution, listened to the needs of their client, it just wasn't a fit at the end of the day. So the third piece of that is looking at how they rank things, right?

So most of our organizations that we work with, sales is a factor to not choose somebody. If the salesperson is too aggressive, if they're not listening, if they're perceived as transactional, the buyer will believe that their pre-sales experience reflects what their client experience is going to be like, and they'll run the other way, unless the solution is just that good. So if you're in a highly competitive marketplace where you have a great marketing automation tool, but there's 10 other great marketing automation tools out there, and you're competing neck and neck with these every day, you really have to try hard to be authentic, responsive, have strong communication skills, connect with that buyer up front to give yourself a little bit of a...

Ryan, are you there? Ryan, we hung up a little bit. All right. Looks like Ryan, we're having a little bit of technical difficulty there, but I'm going to kind of chime in here on some of the things that he was saying while he gets unfrozen here. It's actually interesting. I've always believed that you can differentiate yourself purely based on the way that you manage the sales process. So a lot of our products and services are being commoditized, and I don't care what industry that we're in. Some are more commoditized than others, but in the mind of the consumer, it's commoditized. And so we can keep fighting the value fight, which I think is obviously very fair and very important to do. But I think that the way you manage the sales process and how you engage and how Ryan said as far as from a communication standpoint, what expectations do you set?

How do you walk people through the process and not just always be trying to close them, but also empathizing with them, helping them understand what your product really does really well and really doesn't do not so well. Too many sales reps try to pretend like every aspect of their product or solution is the best thing ever, right? When it's just obviously not. And I'll use sales training as a perfect example. You talk to most rank and file sales trainers, and they will tell you, hey, oh, yeah, no, we do great prospecting all the way through to closing. We're the leading provider of in all these areas. It's just not true. I mean, for me, for instance, my training, the stuff that I got from Basho and now have evolved since then, is very focused on prospecting.

It's a home run with prospecting to anybody, right? As long as it's not transactional sale. But then also, oh, there's Ryan. Hey, what's up, Ryan? Are you there? Sorry about that. Spotting a network here. No, no worries. Let me just finish this point. Where my training is, I was just saying how, you know, sales reps going to your point of empathizing and really not pushing on the whole product and service. But most sales reps think that their entire product and service is the best, right? They'll say, oh, no, no, no, it solves every single problem when it's just not true, right? And with sales training, my stuff fits really, really well with prospecting to like mid-market and enterprise and also great from a negotiation standpoint for mid-market, but not like major complex selling, right?

Not those type of things. It's just not my strong point. And so I gain way more credibility by telling a client, hey, look, this is where I fit. And this is where I hit a home run. And this is where I don't. And if you're looking for areas in these, you know, if you're looking for solutions in these areas, I'd probably go talk to Miller Hyman and whoever and whoever. And nine times out of 10, by taking that approach, almost like trying to qualify them out as much as I'm trying to qualify them in, that tends to like bring people towards me to say, oh, well, wait a minute, like, okay, but I'd still like to work with you because I just like your approach better than those other sales reps who've been trying to cram down my throat.

So that's, I was just kind of riffing off of what you said there. Well, it's a good point. And a lot of the data that we get back shows that those salespeople who understand their competitors better, do better. They get higher scores. Those salespeople who understand the business that they're selling to and can have a discussion about it, get higher scores and those who understand the industry as well. So we see that scores drop off quite a bit overall when we're asking about things like professionalism, communication, those are high scores, passion, empathy gets up there as well. When you get to the knowledge areas, things tend to just drop. So any salesperson who spends a little bit of extra time, like the YU, YU Now stuff, to understand who it is that they're selling to, that they've gone through the website, they've gone through Glassdoor, they have gone to the LinkedIn profile, they have stuff that they can use if they need to, really differentiates people.

And it's something that most salespeople should be doing today. But for some reason, they're just not spending the time and they're losing the connection with the buyer. Well, and that's what blows me away, because I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, it doesn't take that much, right? It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. It drives me because, you know, look, I'm not a Rhodes Scholar here, right? I went to a state school, you know, I drank my way through four years of college. But, you know, just by popping on somebody's website for less than five minutes before a meeting and looking at their news and events and, you know, and instead of using like when, you know, most people do the rapport building crap at the beginning of a meeting, oh, the weather and the game, you know, that type of crap, where my rapport building is, hey, you know, in preparation for our meeting today, I just noticed that you guys just launched this or just had that award or whatever it is.

I want to say congratulations on that before we get going. Just that alone, you could tell shifts. Like, I'm sure you've been there, Brian, where in the beginning of a meeting, somebody says, wow, you've done your homework. Yeah, I had it just, I'm at a meeting with new people at a client company right now in their office. And we had that same thing just happen at the beginning of the meeting today. So, yeah. And you feel the shift in that. It changes the dialogue immediately from a sales rep pitching a solution to a client who's just kind of, yeah, yeah, what do you got? Send me some information at the end of it to, oh, okay, wow, this is actually a human being who's actually done some homework here, come prepared, and is ready to have a legitimate business conversation.

And it's sad to me how unexpected that is from a client standpoint. Isn't it? It's sad. And even beyond looking at business-related stuff, I mean, there's a lot of stuff you could find out about somebody. And there are all these connection points you could make. You know, you might find that somebody just ran the Boston Marathon, and when you Googled their name, you know, they came up. No, I ran the Boston Marathon. So, you can drop that in at some point in the discussion to say, oh, I'm training for the, oh, you do, you know, and all of a sudden, boom, you're a differentiated salesperson because you have that connection with them. It's really easy, and it's kind of fun to look for that stuff as well.

I agree. So, let's use that as the transition from the questions, right? Because I think, I don't care how good any of us get in sales or how experienced any of us get in sales, I think the number one skill that we can all get better at is asking better questions, you know, with context around them. So, say a rep loses a deal, you know, because we can talk all we want about the questions they should have asked throughout the deal. But say that rep loses the deal, and they're trying to figure out why, and the client does happen to give them that doorknob close where they're like, all right, I'll give you 10 minutes here to give you, what are some of the things outside of why we lose the deal?

You know, what are some of the things that reps should or could be asking either themselves or the clients to gain some better understanding of so they can improve moving forward? Yeah. So, I think the key, I'll set it up by saying that you have to reach into your soul to open yourself up to be extremely vulnerable when you're asking the question. You don't want to go in there with kind of a cocky, you know, line of questioning, like, why didn't you choose me? Or what could I have done differently or better? Those are kind of generic. So, you have to really be vulnerable when you're asking the questions. And you might say, we find that framing them in a certain way to create a safe environment is really helpful.

And if I'm a salesperson and I'm talking to the buyer, I might say something like, if you were my boss tomorrow, just put yourself in my boss's shoes and I was coming to you for two or three nuggets that you think could help me be more effective out there in the field, in my next sales process, what would those be? So, you know, you're asking for help. You're sincerely asking for help. You're creating an environment for them, a headspace for them to say, well, I want to help this person out. They're depending on me to point them in the right direction. Those are the types of questions that typically get really honest responses. And it could be around your own personal experience. You could also, you know, go down the path of, you know, if you were the head of product development, where would you invest in the solution?

But from a sales perspective, you have to be open, vulnerable. You have to kind of get, sit down and look up at them and say, you know, help me be better. And they will, they'll provide you with advice. Nobody wants to call somebody's baby ugly, but if you, if you put it in the right terms, they'll, they'll, they'll let you have it. They really will. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I think the, my biggest learning lesson that I've ever gotten in sale in business in general is when I, I use the walk or the, uh, the, the doorknob clothes, uh, when I got fired from Staples. Like I, you know, I remember my, my little company thrive networks, you know, we sold it off to this $20 billion organization. And the guy who was acquiring us had a really bad perception of me starting off when he was doing the interview and it didn't get any better.

And eventually, and it was a brutal year of me going through this mainly because it started so negatively and, and he ended up firing me. And I remember afterwards being devastated because I, you know, I was seven years into this company. I'd started it, you know, blood blue, if you come in and after I kind of took a deep breath and realized, I was like, I got to figure out what, like what really happened. And, and I reached out to him and I said, Hey, Jay, and this guy, Jay Baitler, who is a guy who runs a 12 bill or ran a $12 billion part of Staples, like way higher than I'll ever get in my career. You know, he, um, he was like, you know, I reached out and I was like, Jake, you know, would you mind just give me like an hour of your time so I can understand what really happened here.

And he was the main guy that fired me and he, I don't, I couldn't imagine how, like how open he was to providing that feedback and not in it. Like, yeah, yeah. Let me tell you why you suck thing. Like when I showed up at his office, he, he seriously was like, John Barrows, get in here. He goes, can I tell you before you even get started here with whatever you're going to ask me, the fact that you just reached out to me for your own personal and professional development tells me more than I knew about you in the year that I was working with you. Yeah. And he's like, you have a, you have an hours of my time, hour of my time. He's like, my favorite thing to do is, is, is develop and cultivate new leadership.

He's like, so you have an hour of your time and I will tell you whatever you want to know. And I sat down, I said, Jay, look, I got 10 questions for you. Cause I came prepared. I didn't want to just be like, what happened? You know, I had 10 questions about specific things. And I said, look, I'm going to ask you these 10 questions. You can be as open with me as you want to be. You don't have to be open if you don't want. And, you know, but I'd really appreciate it. And he's like, I will be as open with you as, as you want. And he provided, he gave me more insight into that hour that has led to future success in my career than I would have ever gotten reading any book, going to an MBA. And, and fast forward, Jack Welsh.

So Jack Welsh management Institute and GE Jack Welsh. I was going for a job with him for, to help him online MBA program, get off the ground. And he literally, uh, he was looking for a reference and I gave Jay as the reference, the guy who fired me from Staples. And that's what got me that gig with Jack. Well, that's awesome. Yeah. So I, you know, I really encourage reps out there to, to really, you know, especially the deals like, look, if you, if you lost a deal, that was kind of like a 50, 51, whatever, you know, and you kind of understand why you lost it, but those ones that you really sunk your teeth into and were like, God damn it. You know, why did I lose that? I think the, the, the approach coming back to that client is, is important and actually very tactical here, right?

Do you recommend after you lose a deal? Is there a timeline? Do you, do you, do you ask right then when you get the no, is it email? Is it phone? Like what's the best approach here? So, so I, I guess I'm going to, I'm going to broaden this. A little bit, because I think it, it should be done whether you win or lose for the reason I mentioned earlier, you know, you, you may have closed the deal. It doesn't mean you won the deal. You know, you could have completely done a terrible job in the mind of the buyer, but as soon as the, the contract is signed, or as soon as they've told you that, that you no longer are being considered. That's the point to kind of tee it up a little bit and say, listen, I really want to understand how we, um, I want, I want to take this as a learning opportunity.

I really want to get feedback from you on, on how I, how you think I could have done what I could have done differently or better. And let's set up some time, you know, next week, if you have a half an hour and if you've spent enough time, if you've committed to them, if you've given them, um, your time during the selling process and you've earned it, they'll, they'll give it to you. Uh, so I, I, uh, I would suggest immediately that the one thing that I would mention here is that a lot of buyers are reluctant to get on those post-mortem calls because they have a fear that the salesperson is going to either be emotional or they're going to try to resell them. So when you're asking for the feedback session, make sure that they understand that this has nothing, you know, you're, you're done with them.

If it's a loss, congratulations on your decision. Have a nice day. We wish you the best of luck. This is, has nothing to do, um, with the sales process, uh, and trying to resell, uh, their, your solution to them. And there's no place for emotion in these discussions and there's no place to, to disagree with them, right? You're there to listen, you're there to take it and you're there to thank them at the end and then change, uh, for the better move on and close your next deal. I think that's super important to let them know that. Right. Because, you know, there's, you're right. Like there's like, ah, I don't want to talk to this because, because that's actually the dirt bag way, that closing technique that I was mentioning, the, the doorknob closed, the dirt bag sales rep, old school sales rep way is, Hey, what's the real reason?

And whenever they tell you, you flip it back around on them. It's, Oh, Oh, I didn't realize. And that's just sleazy and gross. So take that off the table. And I would actually, to your point in the email, in the call, say, Hey, look, uh, regardless of whatever your feedback is, I'm not going to try to resell you on whatever this is. And I promise you, I will not take any of this personally, um, or, you know, or try to debate with you. I'm really just trying to learn for myself. And I think if you take that, again, that empathetic approach, if you will, to letting them know that, look, I know this is going to be awkward for you. Um, but I, you know, I really would appreciate it. That tends to open up the door a lot.

Yeah. And you know, that helps you as an individual salesperson, but if you can collect that data across the sales team over time, you start to see trends and it might be that, Hey, you and your peers aren't really doing the upfront work that you need to, to really understand the buyer, um, or you're not taking the right approach to, to allotting value to need. So, so there's a lot of great insight that can be collected and, and, um, ultimately budget can be found to invest in, in sales trainings, like your training or other product areas. So, so being able to not only take that and, but share it with others is, is an important part of the process. Well, that leads, that leads to an interesting kind of the, the bigger picture stuff here is like, cause I got to assume that, that sales process, at least having a process is really important to be able to run a, a win loss analysis that means anything, right?

Cause there's, if there's no consistency with it, how can you look back on it? So how important, or at least what pieces of the sales process need to be in place for you guys, for instance, to be successful in any type of, uh, comparison of data points of win loss stuff. So, um, with, with win loss programs, whether it's ours or, or another is, you know, the collecting the data that has, is tied to an advanced sales cycle is important, right? So you want somebody who's not just been a window shopper, had a quick call with you and then moved on, but you want somebody who has spoken to you. There's some sort of value alignment discussion. Um, there's a, uh, maybe a, a, a proof of concept or demo.

There's some sort of client reference call that took place. There's pricing that was shared. Uh, so there's a lot of things that take place in any sales process and being able to get people who went through most of that, to be able to comment on each step is that much more, um, impactful because you might have lost a deal. You might find out because your sales engineer was awful, right? And maybe you knew that they didn't do that well, but maybe you didn't know that that was the play that killed the game. Right. And, and that was the deciding point for the buyer to go in a different direction. Um, so yeah, any more advanced sales cycle is, is, and that includes wins as well. Right. So they're the most advanced sales cycles.

If you did follow the steps in your, in your process. Very cool. Cool, man. Well, I know we're coming up on the hour here and I appreciate you taking the time, but let me just make sure I summarize some of the key takeaways here is, you know, depending on the transactional nature of your sale, right? The more commoditized it is, the more the sales, sales rep matters and how they manage the sales process, uh, empathy and putting yourself in the customer's shoes and not trying to close them on everything. And walking away sometimes is, is puts you in a much better position. Um, you know, a process you got to have at least one, so you can do some comparison notes there. And as a sales rep, you know, really being thoughtful and reaching out to the people that you've won or you've lost and telling them, you know, that for your own personal professional development is, is a way to, to really leapfrog from a, from a result standpoint.

So you can learn from it. Anything else that, that the audience should be paying attention to this stuff? I think I heard it, heard it in there, but, but having kind of consistency to the question. So, so if you're going to do this, um, have the same five questions for each salesperson on your team, allow, allow them to, to be flexible and go in their own direction, but try to frame up the, the feedback process in such a way that you can collect data and look for those trends. If everybody's asking different questions, it's really hard to do. Love it. Oh man. Well, how, uh, how can the audience find a little bit more about you guys and, uh, and you know, what should, what should they be looking out for, for, you know, cause I know you, you, based on where you're coming from, I know you guys put out a lot of, a ton of stuff out there, valuable information.

Um, so how can people find out more about you, Ryan? Yeah, you can check us out at doublecheckresearch.com. Uh, you can hit me up on LinkedIn, Ryan Sorley, and yeah, happy to chat, answer any questions people have. And thank you so much for the opportunity. I, uh, you know, in the presence of greatness here with John, so thanks for, um, thanks for allowing me to, to participate. No problem, man. I, I, you know, I've gotten where I am with my career by failing way more times and I've succeeded. So, uh, so we all, yeah, exactly. And so hopefully, uh, I'm now going to now stick my head into the sand and not pay any attention to ESPN or Facebook or anything like that, because, uh, I don't need to do the win loss analysis on the Patriots.

They lost and we're on to next year. So, um, but anyways, Ryan, keep knocking it out of the park out there. I really appreciate your time and everybody else out there making a great week and make it happen. All right. Thank y'all very much. Thanks, Sean. All right. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.