65: Scott Leese - Starting Your Career Later

Hey listeners, remember the podcast with Chris Orlob from Gong a couple of weeks ago? They teased a piece of research that they were releasing, and it just released. Executives hate to be interrogated, which is why when talking to executives, you want to ask them a handful of questions, but not too many. Head over to the gong.io blog for the full study. Good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrows, Jay Barrows Consulting, here for another Make It Happen Monday podcast. And I am super excited to have a good friend of mine, Scott Leeson, with us today to talk about personal branding, but some more stuff here. So Scott, why don't you tell everybody kind of what you're up to these days and what you're focused on with your business right now, and then we're going to back into kind of how you got here.

Sure thing. Thanks for having me on, John. Right now, I'm the Senior Vice President of Sales at Qualia. Qualia is a real estate software and going after the title insurance business. And I'm spending a lot of time right now, honestly, preparing for Surf and Sales 2019, which will be the second annual event, which I'm excited to get back to. So I'm super bummed I didn't make this year's. I'm going to really try to make next year's. Could you please explain to everybody what Surf and Sales? Because this is one of the, like, if there's all these conferences that I go to and shit like that, I'm like, yeah, this is cool. But this one, I was really pissed I couldn't make this one because this one sounds badass.

Could you explain to everybody what Surf and Sales is all about? Yeah, it's just supposed to be the opposite of a regular sales conference where you show up to, you know, the Hilton Hotel in Omaha, Nebraska. And there's a thousand people running around and vendors everywhere and you're making all these superficial connections and all this thing. You get back on the plane, you know, hungover and exhausted and you think, well, I don't know really what I got from this. So the idea I had was to take, you know, 15, 20 people away out of our comfort zone to some, you know, tropical, amazing location. We went to Costa Rica last year and it looks like we're going to go back to Costa Rica again this year.

And just put us in, you know, close proximity to each other for five, six days and, you know, learn from each other. You know, I didn't talk the whole entire time. You know, I gave two little workshops, but all the participants who came gave workshops as well. And then, you know, we had the place, three houses rented out on the beach. We had it catered. We had surf lessons every single day. So it was like we surf in the morning. We did some workshop stuff, you know, sales and leadership and coaching and all this kind of thing for the middle part of the day. And then we went and surfed again in the afternoon and had fun and, you know, just had a really great time. And, you know, people went home having fun, feeling like they learned a bunch, made really good, powerful connections with those, you know, other attendees and, you know, just trying to do something a little bit different in the sales conference world, I guess.

Love it, man. What was one thing, just out of curiosity, what was like one of the key things that you took away from those conversations just for you, for you personally? For me personally, it was just that there's a demand for the antithesis of a normal conference. People want, absolutely want a different type of experience. And they want to be able to combine, you know, work and pleasure, so to speak. So the whole, like, work part of the day and go have fun and get in with nature and surf and learn new skills and push the boundaries. Like, people want to do that kind of thing. And, you know, I thought that I had hit on something that, you know, there might be a need for. But now it's, like, really confirmed and cemented in my head.

So I'm excited to get back out there and do it again next year. Love it, man. Well, how can we actually, just before we get into the rest of this, how can people find out more about that? Surfinsales.com is the website. I'm releasing news and little clips and updates on LinkedIn and on Twitter. So stay tuned for more info there. Love it, man. So I hope, like I said, do you got the dates yet for it? We're trying to lock that down right now, but I'm thinking late February, maybe early March. Okay. So it's a little earlier this time. Yep. All right. So let me know. Block your calendar off, John. Yeah, I was going to say, let me know as soon as possible so I can go. I will, yeah. All right, man, well, let's get into this because I think, you know, one of the things that struck me, I mean, we've been hanging out.

We met through Richard, our good friend. And, you know, one of the things that struck me about you was your story of how you got to where you are right now and how you actually got into sales. And we were talking beforehand about how I'm writing a book on, hopefully, you know, a kid's book on helping getting kids get into sales because it ends up being the default profession, right? But I think there's a, there's something to be said for how you got to where you are right now. So would you mind giving a little background on, on kind of, you can't, you graduated with a psych degree, right? Yeah. Psychology and religion. Psych and religion, which I think are fantastic backgrounds for sales. But, but it wasn't like, hey, I want to be in sales when I get out of college here.

So what happened once you got out of college? Could you kind of walk people through that, the challenge that you faced and then how you got to where you are? Yeah. You know, I think like, like a lot of people who graduate with liberal arts type degrees, you know, I didn't know what I wanted to go do with the rest of my life. And so I felt like, well, I'll go to grad school because that's like a productive thing to do and I won't be a total degenerate, right? And I, you know, I'll, I'll get closer to figuring it out. So I went to grad school at Arizona State and studied learning and instructional technology. Just kind of thinking like, I'm, I'm really interested in how people learn, you know, I've got this psych background, maybe I'll, you know, teach people one day, you know, whether that's like a professor or a corporate trainer or something like that.

I didn't really know. So I came home after, uh, after school, stayed with my parents and all of a sudden started having really, really horrible, uh, health challenges. Um, a lot of GI problems, um, took a long time for people to figure out the doctors, figure out what was going on. Uh, turns out I had a couple of autoimmune diseases. Uh, chief among them was ulcerative colitis, which, uh, if you don't know what that is, it's very similar to Crohn's disease. I was a big guy, you know, I'm, I'm six to, I played four sports in high school, two sports in college, uh, you know, soccer and tennis player and weighed about 195. And in, in, in about six months, I'd gone from 195 to 145. That put a lot of stress, uh, you know, on my organs, my organs started, you know, threatening to fail and, uh, started getting just problem after.

You know, when your immune system is just that screwed up, you know, long story short, um, I spent the better part of four years in the hospital, uh, in San Francisco fighting for my life. Um, really, you know, just beyond unpleasant. I can't even describe to you. I didn't breathe fresh air for like, you know, months and months at a time. Um, you know, wasn't able to eat anything. Wasn't able to drink water. I once had to wear this little backpack looking thing. Even if I was walking around the hospital, that basically just fed me like amino acids and, and, and fluid. I wasn't even allowed to sip water. It was just too much for my, uh, you want to talk about something mentally taxing. See how long you can go without taking a sip of water or, uh, one bite of food.

It's pretty rough. Yeah. Uh, so at any rate, I, I ended up having to, uh, have my large intestine removed, uh, over a series of four, uh, pretty brutal surgeries. Um, as I started to convalesce from that, I had a, another large problem to deal with, which was the fact that I was hooked on, uh, opioids. So, you know, I'd been on pain, pain pills for four plus years, um, you know, because of all the medical problems that I was having and had to kick off of, of, of all that, which was, you know, unpleasant. Um, but here I am, I'm now 27 years old at the time. I had never had a job before in my life that didn't involve coaching or being paid to play sports, literally nothing, you know, never, never said, do you want fries with that?

Never worked at a retail store, you know, uh, so no inclination at all that I, you know, could be good at sales. Uh, what I had to do though, was I had to, in my mind, make up for lost time and sales. I knew my appeal to the competitive side of me and I understood the concept of, you know, the better you do, the more you get paid, you don't perform, you get cut. I got that from sports as well. So I thought I could make up for lost time and kind of make as much money as possible, um, doing sales and pick the startup because I didn't want to get, you know, uh, stuck at some big, huge company and not progress for four or five years. And, you know, I thought I'd get seen faster at a startup and I might have more opportunity.

So total strategic decision on my part, you know, nothing to do with, uh, you know, wanting to be a salesperson my whole life or, you know, testing it from time to time. It was just like, I'm just going to see what I can do. Can I ask you, so how did you, from a, so I love the fact that you chose it, but you said it married, you said you saw that sales married up with some of the things that you felt drove you. Right. So I've always, you know, for instance, I've had my 12 guidelines to personal success and, you know, those sorts of things that guide me. Like, did you ever sit down and say, like, after you got through that shit right there, like to say, okay, what's important to me? Like from a strategy standpoint, did you say, okay, I got to figure out something and then really map out some goals and some plans.

And then say, you know, what sales is the industry to do that. I'm kind of curious on, on digging a little bit deeper into that piece. Cause yeah. Yeah. I, I didn't at the time. Okay. And there's a lot of different reasons for that. You know, number one, uh, there was not the same amount of tools, you know, 15 years ago that there is today. Right. Right. There was, it was not as easy to get information from, you know, people in the industry like yourself, you know, and I had, I didn't have LinkedIn content coming at me every fucking day. Yeah. Right. Uh, I didn't have a network either, you know, I, I, cause I had, I went to college and then, you know, disappeared for, for four years. So I, I, I wish I could say that, yeah, you know, I did that.

And, but I, I really didn't, my, my whole mission was like, I need to make some money and I need to make, I need to make it quick and I need to get myself stable and get myself on the radar doing something. Um, and that was it, man, it wasn't any more strategic, uh, than that later on, as I, you know, got into sales more and more and started meeting more people and, you know, consuming as much info as I, as I could, then I started to learn, okay, you should probably set these goals and do things this way and whatnot. But, you know, I, I didn't have a, you know, a mentor or anybody coaching me along the way, you know, I mean, that's why I love this fucking profession, man, because low barriers.

You're going to entry other than wanting to work your ass off and figure shit out. Right. So, and the willingness to put in the effort and after what you had gone through, I got to imagine that the pain of quote unquote pain of sales was a very relative compared to what, what, what pain, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I try to teach people that are, you know, first getting into sales who are, you know, maybe a little bit of afraid of the phone and all that stuff. I mean, I was afraid of the phone at first too, but I also was like, I've already been through hopefully the hardest thing I'll ever go through in my life and I'm still here. So I really don't care if I don't get a deal today or, you know, if somebody hangs up on me or whatever, like this is, there's a lot of larger problems that I've already dealt with, you know, and I, and everybody has in their life too.

Yeah. You know? So it's like, come on, it's not that big of a deal. If you, if you don't get a sale today or, or if somebody hangs up on you or you don't know the exact perfect thing to say, like, I'm sure you've been through more shit than that before. And you're, and you're still here fighting, like, come on, believe in yourself, you know? Exactly, man. And I, I think too many people take it a little bit too seriously and are afraid to do just for, for those reasons, because they're afraid. Right. But, you know, I don't do it anymore because I've had to kind of detox a little bit here from a, from a news standpoint, but there was a very long period of time. And before the news got as insane as it is right now, there was a, there was a period of time where I watched the nightly news, not really to stay up to date on what was going on.

Although that was a nice little extra benefit. I watched it to remind myself that no matter how bad my day went, literally, I could have literally the worst day of my life. And all I have to do is flip on the news to watch somebody else who's had it a lot worse than me. Right. For a longer period of time, probably. Much longer. Right. So I love it, man. And so then let's talk about the grind, right? Cause you got in at a pretty low level in a startup company, but then you moved up pretty fast. Right. Yeah. I, uh, I was only a count executive for six or seven months. That's it. Yeah. Uh, I, it took me a little bit to figure out what the heck I was doing. And then I got really good at, at selling really quick.

And I started breaking all the records of the company. Um, and then, you know, I, in my youth and inexperience walked up to the CEO and was like, Hey, um, I don't think my sales manager knows what he's doing. And, uh, I don't advocate doing this by the way. I'm just being honest about what I did. Uh, I don't think my sales manager knows, knows what he's doing. I, you know, I've been a captain of all these sports teams my whole life. Like, what do I have to do to steal his job basically. And after I got admonished for, you know, not really politically doing that the right way, he gave me a list of all these things that he wanted me to do. And so I took my medicine and I said, okay, I'll be back when I do all these things.

So I went and did all those things and, uh, was up for a manager role. What were some of those things? Oh man. It was like, break these records, uh, get down, uh, a process if you will. So, so I can see how you sell and how you're going about it. So you can teach other, other people how to do it. Uh, you know, positive attitude, you know, uh, share like what's working for you and stuff like that. So these are, these are some of the things I can think of off, off the cuff, uh, right now. So I went and did all these things and I got up for a promotion. This is a big moment in my life. I'm up for a promotion and they give it to somebody else. They give it to a gal who was more tenured, who, um, you know, in my mind, at least didn't have the leadership qualities.

And I was, I was pissed. And I think this happens to a lot of salespeople. They, they, they do really well and they meet this inflection point where it's like, they don't get the raise they want or the title they want or whatever. And I took one interview somewhere else. Cause I remember thinking, you know, fuck this place. Like I'll go somewhere else. And I took this other interview and, uh, you know, the interview didn't go very well. I'd still didn't know what I was doing and I didn't know how to navigate it. And this guy, I'll never forget fuels me to this day. He told me he didn't see me as any kind of salesperson. He said, maybe you're some kind of silent assassin or something, but I just don't see it.

What? So yeah, I remember it to this day. I remember this day, but I, so I had to decide, like, do I leave and start over or can I get a management job with only six months of sales experience? Probably not. Or do I just dig my heels in here and make it fricking impossible for them to not promote me? So I decided to stay and, you know, sure enough, uh, that girl didn't work out. And in the two or three months that she was a manager, I just like doubled my sales record. I like, I literally like went nuts, uh, just started doing really good. And then they, they ended up giving me the role and then, you know, off I went on the, on the sales management, uh, track. So, man, so I mean that I can't tell you how many takeaways from that, that I have, which is, you know, the whole earn it factor, right?

Like that's where I was, my, my parents, I don't know how, like now that I'm a parent, I keep going out back and asking my dad and mom, like, what did you do to instill a work ethic in me? Cause I, I think that's something you can learn work ethic, but I also think there's something just inside of you that says I'm going to work my ass off to make this successful. And they, they don't have a good answer for me. So I'm like, shit, cause I want to figure out what that is so I could put it in my, you know, my daughter there. Um, but I think that I, that idea of, instead of complaining about not getting, uh, promoted or whatever it is and saying, fuck it, I'm going to go to your point, make it so it's impossible for them not to promote me.

Yeah. Right. And it's funny, you have a similar story. Like when I was at, uh, when I was at DeWalt, so my first job out of college, this, this might be a trend. I might start asking other kind of leaders, this question, because when I, I just felt something was wrong when I was there and I had my boss who was only like three or four years older than me. And we were working like 17 hours a day, seven days a week, like no joke. I'd get a call at midnight and he'd be like, and we were DeWalt. So I'd have to drive around with the Dodge Ram pickup truck to give away tools to construction workers. But we, we had all of new England. Right. So it was like all the way up to the bar Harbor, Maine, all the way down through Connecticut.

So it was just driving. I'd get a call from him at midnight saying, Hey John, I need you to be at a woodworker's warehouse in Albany, New York, uh, for a 7am opening. And I'm like, dude, that's like six hour drive. He's like, yep, but you should get my car now. Leave now. Yeah. What the fuck? And I remember calling my dad being like, dad, I know you've always told me earn it and you know, blah, blah, blah. But this seems a little excessive, like 17 hours a day, seven days a week. Like, do I, is this really like earning it? Like, uh, and he's like, no, that that's a little ridiculous. And so I, I tried to approach my boss about it. Cause the whole team was getting burnt out. And then eventually I was so good.

Cause I was the one, the best rep on the team in that territory that I was, I kept talking to him and he wouldn't do it. So I went to his boss. I did the same thing that you did. And that was pretty funny. Yeah. I was like, Hey dude, not for anything here, but if this keeps going, like, there's no way. I'm going to be able to like me and the team are probably going to leave. And what I did though, was I didn't say he needed to be fired. I just said that he needed to be, he's a great employee for the company, but probably not from a management standpoint. And so something needs to be done. And, you know, as in big business, like they usually do, they promoted me and they promoted him. Right. So it's like, that's how I solved the problem.

Right. Yeah. But it was like, there was something there that just didn't feel right, but I would have never been able to go and have that confidence to have that conversation. If I wasn't the best on the team and absolutely murdering it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't speak up until I was in a position of strength in my head, at least. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, so let's kind of dovetail into like personal brand. Right. Cause I know you've done a, like now that you've kind of worked on your own about 15 different advisory boards for companies you're killing it with the, you know, surf stuff. And, and, and also, you know, you take a real casual approach to your brand itself, as far as your style and those types of things.

So when did you start to realize how important, not just results were, but also your personal brand was to your success. And when did you consciously start thinking about it and working on it? Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. Um, a lot later to the game than, than other people, honestly. Um, my first two jobs, I had to wear a suit and tie every single day, whether I was a rep, whether I was a sales manager, whether I was, you know, the first VP of sales job. I had that my CEO wanted me to wear a suit and tie and the whole team wear a suit and tie. And I remember consciously thinking, I've got to get to a place where my input matters enough that I never have to dress like this ever again.

I need that much power or that much input or whatever. Cause I got a closet full of nice clothes that I don't want. I want to wear well. I want to dress the way I did in high school again for the rest of my life, right? Um, well, I'm sure somebody could psychoanalyze all that and, you know, go, go to town with it. But that's what I want to do. So for me, like I, I just dress the way that I dress, man. I'm not trying to impress anybody. I can't stand shaving. So, you know, I shave like once every six weeks or something like that, but you at least like groom your, I can't even be bothered, you know? So, you know, but I started to, to pick up on it a little bit because the personal branding side, because all of the sales orgs that I've built, it's for the most part been with entry-level salespeople and entry-level salespeople.

As we've touched on before, like they're often there because there's no other option in their mind, at least, right? They don't have a law degree. They're not going to be a doctor. They've tried other things and failed, or, you know, they got a music or art degree from someplace and they can't find a job, but they know how to communicate. Um, you know, and a lot of people come from screwed up backgrounds. Let's face it, that get into sales. You got alcoholics, drug addicts, people with, you know, crazy family problems and relationship situations and all that. So, but I started looking at myself as somebody who's like giving other people a chance, you know, that place that hired me, they took a flyer on this kid with no experience who, uh, just kind of must've convinced them that, you know, I was going to go all in on it.

And so I think I've consciously tried to pay that forward quite a bit. And so I have, I have a special place in my heart for people who've been through some shit, but are now at a place where they want to really change their, their life. And so that piece started becoming a little bit, a part of my brand. And, and one of the things that I did to cultivate that was just really be totally vulnerable and, and get my own story, you know, out there and talk to people about all the madness that I've had to go through and that kind of thing. Um, so that's where it first kind of started to, to develop, you know, I really didn't take it super, super seriously and try to get it towards the next level until like a year and a half, maybe two years ago.

Um, funny enough, I can't be totally positive of this, but I'm going to give you a shout out. I think, I think that I saw a message from you one day on LinkedIn a year and a half, two years ago, that said something to the effect of like, if you're not leveraging your brand, you're, you're not going to be in sales for much longer or something like that. Right. I don't know for sure if it was you, I, I, I, it might've been, it might've been somebody else out there, but for whatever reason, it like hit me like a ton of bricks this particular day. I'm sure I had seen that message before at the time I had like 3000 connections on LinkedIn and I thought that was a big deal. I was, I was doing fine with it.

Why not? But I had now been a VP of sales a half dozen times. I'd scaled organizations of 200 people in, you know, half the major startup cities in the country, done advisory work overseas, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, I need a bigger audience. That's what I need. I need a bigger audience. So I set, I set off real hard on growing my LinkedIn following, you know, I, I, in less than a year, I got to 30,000 connections. Nice. You know, started adding followers, started actually putting content out there, you know, just, I'm not an overthinker. I give our buddy Richard grief all the time because he's like, he thinks about things really deep and he's like such perfectionist about stuff. I'm not that guy.

Like I'll be, I'll be driving into work and some thought will come into my head and I'll be like, I'm going to write that. And I'll spend like three minutes typing it up and then I'll just send it off. And if somebody corrects my spelling or punctuation, I just go in and edit it later on or whatever. I just don't care. The idea comes to me and I just birth it, you know? So I started doing that and, you know, it's my story and stuff just started resonating, I guess. And I think I've got some good support, some loyal people who've worked with me over the years that kind of maybe helped get the message out. And then, you know, like you, I had people telling me to write a book and share, you know, the experience.

And I had molded this addiction model of selling over the years from my own experience and nobody teaching me how to sell, me just figuring it out. So I thought, well, let me write this like real small, you know, sub hundred page book that's, you know, not my, it's me, you know, it's me. So that's kind of how my, you know, involvement in personal branding really has steamrolled. So now I've got, you know, I've got my own consulting business and all these advisory gigs and I've branched out now and I've got surfing sales, which is totally me. It's a big deal. And you probably get this too, but, you know, I get people commenting to me like, I love what you do because you're just you. You're authentic, you know, you're not trying to give me fluff.

You know, if I ask you a question and you don't know the answer, you say, I don't know the answer. That's a great question, you know, and I give people candid feedback, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Yeah. You know, so. So, I mean, that's funny because I was going to ask you that question. Like, why, so now that you've kind of got your brand to where you are, you continue to evolve and those type of things. Like, what's your favorite part about it? Well, what's your favorite part of what you've built right now and, and, and, or the influence that you have? Like, what, what keeps you going as far as, you know, you're making a difference? I mean, I, I sometimes get the most out of the left field, sincerest messages from people in my LinkedIn network that are out there.

And I, humbling is not even the right word, truly. You know, I wrote this book kind of as just a little branding thing for me. And I had no idea really that anybody would read it, honestly, or find it interesting. And I've gotten a lot of really nice, you know, reviews or whatever you want to call it. People saying, you know, I wish I had this book when I first got started, or this has been so helpful for me. And, and then just people even commenting on, you know, some of the advice that I spit out there on LinkedIn or whatever. I mean, those are, those things keep me going, you know, knowing that I can make an impact on people. That's honestly why I still am a practitioner rather than just full-time, you know, consultant.

I keep building orgs. I keep trying to provide opportunity to people and help them get from, you know, SDR to AE, from AE to manager, from manager to director, from director to VP. You know, you'll, you'll appreciate this, you know, as a Patriots fan, like, you know, you've got the Belichick tree that has spread out, that is going to continue to keep spreading out, right? You know, not to compare myself to him, but like, I have a half dozen or so people now who, who were entry-level sales reps for me, who are VPs or heads of sales, or, you know, who was a co-founder of us, this friend of mine, she's a co-founder of a startup in Seattle. Like, that, I, that makes me feel good. You know, when I, when I, when I kick the bucket one day, you know, I want, I want people to, to show up or just say, you know, that guy helped me.

Like, yeah, that's all, that's all I want. I want as many people as possible to be able to be like, that guy, that guy helped me, you know? So those things keep me going. I hate, I hate to be morbid, right? But I think about like on my tombstone, right? I don't want to be buried, but I want to be. It's a legacy. Right? I wanted to say, I want to say like, he made a difference, right? Yeah. And, and it's funny, I didn't ask you that because, because I, you know, because I wanted to set this up. I was genuine with that question because, you know, you and me take a very similar approach to no bullshit. Hey, I am who I am and this is why. And I think that's why people gravitate towards it. But I will tell you right now, there was like two or three messages just last week where I got that email from that kid out of left field, whether it was on LinkedIn or whatever, saying, John, you know what?

I went to one of your trainings like two or three years ago. And based on that, it changed my perspective on things and I'm now doing this and I was worst and now I'm first and all that other stuff. And like, if I get one of those a month, as much as I travel 50% of the time and I'm away from my family and all that stuff and that stuff kills me, like that's the stuff why I keep getting on a plane, right? And that's what I think is so beautiful about sales, which people don't genuinely understand or at least, you know, appreciate is, you know, the mantra of sales done right, right? That's what that's what we're trying to say, because I genuinely believe that when sales is done right, it's the greatest done wrong.

It's the worst. But when sales is done right, it makes a difference for business companies, for individuals, for those type of things. Like when you fit that right solution into that right need, make a difference. And I don't think enough people have that lens on when they go out and they look at sales as a profession, look at it as a money thing and those type of things, freedom and financial, you know, da, da, da, da. But if you really pull it back, like, if you do it right, you're helping people. Yeah. Do you think that's starting to change a little bit? A little bit? I mean, there's people like you and I who are talking about that, you know, a lot more and kind of pushing that and, you know, just so much now is about adding value and everybody's talking about cadences and all that.

It's like, don't ask for anything until you've added X points of value all over the place. I feel like it's changing, you know, a little bit, maybe not fast enough, but I can remember my advisor in grad school, you know, sort of saying to me, you know, what are you hoping to do with this? And I just, my answer was, I want to help people. And he's like, well, I don't know if you're in the right, you know, profession, whatever. And, you know, I think back to even, you know, studying psychology as an undergrad, that's been so helpful to me in managing and all that. I didn't know it. You know, now it's kind of chic to be like, I got a BA in psychology and I got an MBA. I wish I would have known that.

But, you know, it turns out that I am helping people, you know, that's what I'm doing in a sense. I'm helping my team members change their life and change the life of their kids. And we're helping other businesses hopefully change the trajectory of what they're working on. And you're building up people's confidence and self-esteem, especially people who are, you know, getting into sales for the first time, right? That means the world. You give them that fight, that tenacity, don't give up. Like, these are things truly as cheesy as it might sound. But, like, we're trying to make an impact on these people that make the world a little bit of a better place. And I'm going to say this right now. If that's not your mentality for people listening right now, please do me a favor and get the fuck out of this profession.

I am not joking. I tell people, if you're just in this for a commission check, go fuck yourself. Because that's the reason why the perception of sales is the way it is, is because so many reps take so many shortcuts. And this also comes full circle into kind of the main topic that we, I know we went off on a lot of different tangents. But the idea of personal branding, and I'll kind of finish it up with this one story. So my wife's youngest brother from another father, he was like 10 years, I forget, he's like 10 years younger than us. Actually, 15 years younger than us. And he went and he got a psych degree, right? And he was a kid that was, you know, smaller, undersized, got picked on in high school, had actually had some problems with his bladder in the sense he had to have a bag.

So he didn't have a good, you know, wasn't very confident in this kid, always got picked on. But then when he got into college, he wanted to psychology because he wanted to help people. But then he found music, right? So he found, and he taught himself guitar, and now he's in, like, this thrash metal band. Like, when I say thrash, it's like straight up. That's awesome. And it's Carnivora, by the way, if anybody wants to check them out, it's Carnivora. They're on tour right now. But anyways, he got into it. And what he was trying to do, he found his passion, right? And, but he, but he, now he has to, you know, thrash metal isn't exactly the profession you make a shitload of money in, right? So he's trying to figure out a way to fund his ability to do his passion.

And he's trying all these different things. And I've tried to help him out, whatever, going in different directions. But one of the things I told him, I said, Michael, I think you, I really think you should tell your story. And this is when Snapchat first hit, like, about two and a half years ago, like, really hard. And I was like, because that's when I started getting into it. And he's like, why? I go, let me ask you this. Are you doing anything right now to use your psychology degree in any way, shape, or form? And he's like, well, no. I go, let me ask you, Michael. Say you started chronicling your journey about how excited you were and how you're trying these different things. And you talk about your failures and your success and all that other stuff.

And now at 25 years old, you do that, right? You're on your journey. What if a 16-year-old Michael started following you on Snapchat for some reason and saw, say you just got one follower, but started following you and realizing that this shit position that they're in at 16 years old and how bad they feel about their stuff, they related to you. And they said, holy shit, I might be able to, like, there's a light at the end of the tunnel here, right? If you did that for one person, would it make your four-year degree that you just spent worth it? And he's like, well, yeah. I go, then tell your fucking story, my friend. Because if you think about it that way, like, your story, you didn't know writing that book was going to resonate with so many people.

There's somebody out there that's in a situation that you were in that's going to read or see a post or whatever. As long as your focus is on adding value and not being, you know, look at me and how awesome I am, like, it's amazing what one post will do to somebody, right? Whether it was mine or not, for instance, when, you know, a couple years ago when it was like, hey, we're not going to be relative. Whether it was mine or not, you read that post and it was like a light switch. It's like, you know what, fuck it, I got to start doing this, right? Yeah. So many people that I talk to that are just getting started in their career, they, like, they feel like a loser. They feel like they've already failed because they're not making six figures yet, not doing all the, you know.

I'm like, John, you're 24. You know where I was when I was 24? I was in a fucking hospital bed with my guts splayed open. Okay. I didn't even, I never had a job until I was 27. So I'm like, you're way, you're way ahead of me. You know, I've got this, like, 26-year-old kid on my team right now who's making, you know, well north of six figures. And he's just, like, kind of frustrated that he's not getting there fast enough. I'm like, dude, you are crushing it. Do you understand? I don't even know how to explain to you how good you're doing right now. You know, I want to be a VP like you. I'm like, dude, I didn't even know what selling was yet. You know, come on. You got time. You got time still.

So, like you said, you know, hopefully that story, some of these stories resonate with people. And they're like, well, if that guy can do it, so can I. That's exactly it. Right. And that's kind of it. Which is what people should think. I don't have any, you know, special gift or special talent. It's like I just got really into it, got excited about it, poured my heart and soul into it and went nuts. You know, anybody else can do that. Yeah. Anybody else can do that. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, I think we could continue this conversation for the next six hours here, but we're going to have to cut it a little bit short. We've already gone over, which I'm happy about. So you said tell everybody about your book and then kind of how to follow you on LinkedIn.

Let's build that profile even more. But what's that book? Because I think everybody's going to get a lot of value out of that if they go check that out. Yeah. The book is called Addicted to the Process. It's available on Amazon and Kindle and paperback. I'm considering doing an audio book. I keep getting people telling me to do that. My problem, honestly, with the audio book has been time, energy, effort kind of thing. And I can't allow somebody else to tell my story. Yeah. It will feel really non-authentic and not my brand. It's certainly not my brand. But I think I'm going to get that out there soon. Message me on LinkedIn. I'm very, very diligent about responding to people on LinkedIn. I won't be able to connect with you because it won't let me have any more connections.

But I will respond, reply. I'm on Twitter. You can check out surfandsales.com, the website, for updates there and learn what the event is all about. Thanks for having me on, man. Hopefully get a chance to talk again soon and meet up again one of these days. I'll definitely shoot you the date as soon as I know it. I've got to get you down there if we can. I'll be on that one. And for everybody out there listening, Scott Lease is L-E-E-S-E, right? That's right. Yeah. So check them out on LinkedIn. We'll put the link in the Facebook feed here as well to the book. Go buy that book. Easy read. Like you and I say, under 100 pages. Nice to meet. Get another flight or something like that. And let's just keep trying to elevate the profession here and do it for the right reasons.

Right, Scott? That's right. That's right. Have a great day. Thanks so much. All right, man. You too. Later. Later.