78: Mental Health and Self Care with Tim Clarke

Hey, good afternoon, everybody. This is John Barrows with Make It Happen Monday. Hopefully you all had a fantastic weekend. I'm here with a special guest today, Tim Clark, a good friend of mine who I've been working with over at Salesforce for a few years now. Tim, you want to say hi to everybody? Yeah, hi. Great to be on the show. I've watched so many different podcasts, so I'm really grateful to be here. I appreciate you being on here because a lot of times we talk on Make It Happen Monday about very specific tactics and techniques and those type of things that sales reps can use to be more effective. I think a big thing about this podcast that people appreciate is the real factor. It's not fluff.

It's not overly promoted with all these sponsors and shit like that. There's some stuff that has been happening recently that I think has led to hopefully a bigger benefit to people other than very specific tactics and techniques. It's having this conversation about difficult things. One of the things that, for those who've been following this, we did the, hey, we need a talk webinar with Trish Bertuzzi, Lori, and Casey about the bro culture in sales because I just felt like the bro culture was creeping back into sales and we need to do something about it. That sparked a conversation with you and I about another topic that I think is extraordinarily important to talk about, which is mental health and the issues that all of us face, the stresses that we all face on a day-to-day basis and how everybody always seems like on social and hey, things are going great, but man, when you pull back the covers, we're all dealing with some heavy shit here.

What I'd love to talk with you about, Tim, is your journey because we worked together at Salesforce, quotable when you're pushing that out there. Then all of a sudden, I was following you on Facebook and all of a sudden, you were traveling. I was like, oh, cool. Good for Tim. He's doing, but then all of a sudden, like, holy shit, look at all these places he's going. Then it went a little bit longer than a usual vacation goes. Then we bumped into each other at Dreamforce. You brought this topic up and I thought it was super important. Could you share with our audience here your journey and what happened to you? Then I think we can kind of talk about some things that I think need to be talked about right now.

Would you mind sharing what your journey was and how you got to where you are right now? Yeah, definitely. For those of you that I haven't met or don't know, I run product marketing, Salesforce CPQ, and billing at Salesforce. I've been at Salesforce for seven years. I've certainly seen some significant growth in the company. I've worked for Salesforce both in England and Europe before moving to San Francisco. Since graduating out of college in 2007, I spent nine years in enterprise sales. I've had a really, really good career. I've always been going to club. I've always been maxing out on my bonus. I've been really lucky to be successful through a lot of hard work. I joined Salesforce in 2012.

Then in 2013, I lost my dad suddenly. Now, at the age of 11, my parents split up. I had to make a decision at 11. Who did I want to live with? My mom and my dad. You could only imagine. I grew up with my dad. He was my rock. He was everything to me. And for those in sales that I worked with earlier on in my career, I always talked about how I just wanted to make him proud. And so you can only imagine when, you know, I'm out Friday night with some friends in London having fun. Then I get the call to say he's had a stroke. And I go to hospital and he's in a coma. So I didn't get to say goodbye. And then a few days later, he passes. And it was really interesting how I handled it because I got the call at 8.30am on a Tuesday that he passed.

And I continued to work. I worked for another six, seven hours that day. I was forced to take time off. But really, I just continued working from home. I even worked by his bed, you know, whilst he was in his coma. Because the only thing that I knew was work. I thought, well, work is good. And as long as I've got that, then everything is going to be okay. What I really struggled with is, I'm a clever guy. And I was trying to understand grief, understand how can I move forwards? How can I process this? And so I worked with a non-profit in England who helps kids with grief. I did so much fundraising, volunteering, therapy. But I just couldn't, I couldn't click. I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't get it.

And it got to the point where the middle of last year in 2017, where I just had a complete break. You know, I was suffering majorly from depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction. And all of these things combined, I was no longer able to sustain this very successful, on the face of it, looking great brand that I had. And, you know, so from one moment, I'm on stage at one of our main events, keynoting to a thousand people. But actually, behind the scenes, like, I'm just dying. Whether it's through killing myself with things that I was doing, through to just not wanting to be around anymore, just suicidal. So I had this break in the middle of last year. And it was a breakdown in front of work colleagues, people that reported into me, as well as my management.

And that really started my journey over the last year of actually starting to take care of myself, recognizing that it's okay. It's okay to take some time out. And I actually took over six months out to really work on myself. And it's still an ongoing process. And this is, you know, this is the first time I've ever spoken openly about it. Even if I look at some of my colleagues here, you know, I was here one day and gone the next. And that's because there's so much, I believe, so much stigma associated with, you know, many of the different challenges that I described. And so I, you know, I have many worries right now, like, is this going to have an impact on my career in the future? What are people going to think about me?

But I really feel so strongly that I want to speak up about this, that I want to share my story, same as when you had James on the other day. This is really important. And I guarantee you, there will be such a high percentage of people that are watching this that will be able to relate to one of those things that I said. But where do they go? You know, companies have standard, you know, therapy or whatever offerings, but there's no faces to it. And that's really where I'm focused right now. And that's what motivates me to talk about this with you today. Yeah. And I mean, first of all, thanks for coming on and sharing, because I don't, it's not, I've never been through what you just described or anything close to it.

Thank God on my, on my ends. But I think the, I talking about it and, and, and letting, like you said, putting a face to it. Right. And that's why, you know, even, you know, people who listen to the podcast, um, you know, we're doing this on video too, so that it's not an avatar. It's not a, it's not something that's like my voice is hidden because I'm ashamed of this. This is something that, that you've been able to figure your way through. Thank God, you know what I mean? And you didn't let the depression and everything else really, you know, do what it could have done and what it does to so many people. Um, you know, I see the burnout factor in sales so strong, especially in the tech space, you know, where everything it's a, it's a go, go, go monthly quotas, hit your numbers.

You know, a lot of that actually was that bro culture thing that I was trying to address, which is, you know, we need to slow down a little bit and, and, and care about our customers and not just as numbers. But I also think, you know, we push our customers away, but I think companies do a lot of work to push employees away and don't really give them that outlet to have that conversation because we all deal with it in different ways. I mean, I was, I've been blessed to, you know, and who knows, right. But I've been blessed with, I probably can take a little bit more on my shoulders from a weight standpoint and a stress standpoint than some for whatever reason. I mean, but my out is I smoke a shitload of weed.

You know what I mean? Like I literally smoke weed all the time. And one of the big reasons I do that is so that I can click my brain into a different world, you know what I mean? Or into a different zone and get out of the go, go, go, go, go all the time. I need something to physically almost turn my brain off or turn it into a different mode so I can cope. Cause if I was constantly what, you know, running a company, you know, doing my own thing, traveling all over the world and didn't have an outlet, who knows how much it would build up into your point pop, right? Some people deal with drugs, some people deal with alcohol, some people deal with it in different ways, but we're all dealing with it.

What was the, what do you think was it that brought to that tipping point of you breaking down in front of your, in front of your colleagues and such? Was there, was it just, did it all pile up and you were ignoring it? Because it sounds like you were searching, you were searching for ways to deal and cope, but then all of a sudden it snapped. Was there, can you look back at that and say, you know, what got you to that point and what was it so that other people can maybe see the signs of that type of thing? Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing that I can recognize now, particularly when you talk about, you know, trying to get into a different zone, um, to me, my experience is that's me running away from my emotions.

Um, I remember the last time that I cried about my dad until recent therapy was in the hospital. Um, and at that point I just froze, I froze all my emotions. I didn't know how to feel anything. So even when, let's say, go back to that keynote I reference, I get compliments. I don't know what to do with it. I lock up. Um, I get a promotion. I just broke down crying because I didn't feel that I deserved it. Um, and one of the things that there's probably been the most scary in my journey is that I need to face these emotions that, um, as much as from a logical perspective, I know that my dad is not around, but on a unconscious emotional level, I know I still have not processed it and that's going to be a work in progress.

Right. Um, I think, you know, to answer your question specifically, probably two things. Um, one, I had unhealthy coping mechanisms. So I was, you know, turning to, uh, drugs, alcohol, um, shopping, eating, you know, all these, uh, different outlets and, um, they were becoming more and more excessive. You know, the point that it was starting to impact my work. Um, and I was still trying to hold it all together. I was also in a relationship, which, um, we had some very high highs together, not in the drug sense, but just emotionally, uh, as well as some very low lows. And, um, and it was a bit of a rollercoaster. And if you think about for someone like me who had frozen on my emotions, then all of a sudden I meet someone where I'm experiencing love, I'm experiencing pain.

Um, and I don't know what to do with it. And previously, you know, if you look at alcohol and drugs for some people at certain times that there's that fun aspect in it. Uh, but for me personally, there was that tipping point where it was no longer a social fun activity. Um, it became a coping mechanism and, and even for a period of time, it worked as a coping mechanism because I was able to ignore everything that was going on. I was really able to continue to excel at work. Uh, but I would say the middle of last year, that's when stuff stopped working. And one of the telltale signs for me was I used to just work around the clock and, and you remember this, you'd get emails from me at whatever time.

And, you know, one of my managers at another company made a joke that if they didn't get a response from me within five minutes, they thought something was wrong. Um, and yeah, and, and what I noticed last year was I stopped working at home and this wasn't a decision. I didn't proactively go, Hey, I've got some strong boundaries and I'm just going to work in the office. I lost the motivation. I did not. Um, I, I turned up at work, I did my work and then I went and that, that was a massive change for me. Um, you know, if I look at this company, Salesforce, I'm so passionate about the company and I'm so passionate about the work that we do both business wise and from a philanthropic perspective.

And so looking back now, I lost that passion and that's when I knew something was, was really wrong. Can I ask you, cause I think this is, this is important, right? Because, you know, people talk about the work-life balance. Okay. And my philosophy on this has always been, I think it's kind of bullshit. Um, because what you're telling me by the work-life balance is that you work and then you live. Right. And to me, you work at least a third of your life. You, you sleep a third of your life. And so you really only live a third of your life. And so my whole philosophy has been, if you don't love what you do, you know, then yeah, you're searching for nine to five when's Friday coming that type of thing.

So you can enjoy your life. Whereas if you loved your job and you were truly passionate about your job, then work and life is, is interchangeable if you will. But there's obviously a danger to that, right? Because Salesforce is a, is an incredible company, very philanthropic. You know, you got the one, one, one, all that other stuff, just all the vibes are there, right? All positive in a lot of ways, but it's a very hardcore culture as far as work, work hard, play hard type of scenario. And so even if you are passionate about what you do, like you said, you know, there's still a point where you, you overwork it. You know what I mean? Where, where you have to pay attention to this stuff. So I think that the people who are miserable in their jobs and working their asses off and dealing with this stuff, I can see that compounding very quickly.

What are the signs? I mean, it, is it, was it for you that you, you stopped being passionate about the company and you started just showing up and going through the motions? Um, and, and what should, what should, I guess, what should people look for? Like people that love their job, they works, they work so hard because they are so passionate about what they do. Are there warning signs that you should look for? Because it's like, yeah, I love, so, oh, this is no big deal. I'm staying up until two o'clock in the morning. It's because I love what I do. But that's always, that's obviously there's some unhealthy things about that. You know, is there any thoughts you have on, on how to identify the fact that even though you love your job, you can still burn out on it?

Yeah. And, and, and, you know, you and me were talking about this the other day, uh, like with Gary Vaynerchuk, you know, both of you and me have worked with him and, um, he really emphasizes that point, like do what you love. And if you're trying to be an entrepreneur and working all these hours, but you hate it, like you're in the wrong job. And I think a lot of the time people misinterpret his message, um, because he certainly has a very hardworking, um, mentality, but that's because he loves what he does. And, you know, he, he takes his time for himself and he takes time for his family. Um, to answer your question, I did not have the mental capacity. It wasn't about losing passion for Salesforce.

I had, I had no capacity in my head to do anything. Um, and so for me, I completely agree with what you're saying around work life. Um, but for me, my health comes first now, uh, above anything else, because if I don't put my health first, I won't be able to work, I won't be able to live life. Um, and I, you know, I was down at the university of Texas in Dallas and I really shared this point with the students. They were asking me, you know, what are the top things that you would recommend as we, as we go into business? And my number one thing was to really take care of your health. And when I'm saying health, that's physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Um, you know, if we look at, uh, so many, uh, so many C-level executives, um, really employ medic, uh, meditation, um, as part of their daily practices, um, for me personally, you know, different support groups, particularly men's groups that, um, uh, deal with grief, uh, we, we talk about the, the kind of the stereotypes, males, females, like in your last webinar.

Um, the stereotype of a male is that we're the knight in shining armor on the white horse and we, we don't fall off and we don't feel emotion. And so for me, it's so powerful sitting in with other men's groups who, who share some of the traumas that they've been through, whether it's, you know, being a victim of sexual abuse, um, through the drug addiction, through to losing someone really closely to them. And so what I've really found is that in taking time for myself and taking care of myself, I'm actually creating more time, uh, in my life to actually live life. Yeah. I think that, so I don't know if it's an age thing cause you're what, 33, 34 or something like that. Yeah. So at 42, you know, I, I was really ignoring my health for years and I, and I just said, Hey, look, I, you know, I'm young enough, I'm healthy enough.

So screw it. I'm just going all in. And then around 40, I kind of realized if I don't start taking care of myself, I'm not going to be here to enjoy all the stuff that I'm working for. Right. Cause, cause my priorities changed when my daughter, when I had my daughter and it just gave me a whole new perspective on things about what's important, what, what am I working for and, and how I need to spend the non-working hours of my life, if you will. Um, but still have passion for what I do to show her a good role model. Right. Um, but I think it's, you know, something I realized I wanted to take it. I wanted to start being more proactive about my house. So it didn't force me to, to pay attention to it.

I have way too many friends who, you know, just went all in for the longest period of time. And then all of a sudden got punched square in the face with a real health issue. You know what I mean? Like, you know, a stroke or, you know, a heart attack or something like that, where, cause eventually your body does say, all right, asshole, fuck off. Like if you're not going to slow down, I'm going to slow down for you. Um, and I, go ahead. Yeah. I was gonna say like last year, uh, I lost my hearing in my left ear. I, I found a tumor in my middle ear. And so I had two major surgeries last year to remove that. It destroyed all three of my hearing bones and my eardrum. Um, and so you look at the 10 hours of being under that's, uh, there's all sorts of research, um, between anesthesia and depression.

Um, I, yeah, completely relate to that. And then for me earlier on this year, um, I overdosed and nearly had a stroke. Um, so the age of 32, I'm lying in a hospital bed, my blood pressure's up in the one nineties, um, you know, through, through a cocktail of different things. And what a shame, you know, like, like, I know I have so much to offer to this world, but I was so lost in my disease that I just wanted out. I just didn't want to deal with shit anymore. No, and you look at it dull to pain. I mean, and we all make excuses, you know what I mean? I think that's the thing that I've realized about myself is that I can, I can justify anything. You know what I mean? I can justify, Oh, let me just do that little extra bump of, you know, Coke or something like that just because I'm just trying to stay awake or something, you know what I mean?

Where, you know, I had a realization recently and it kind of similar to perception reality, right? Cause, cause Facebook, you know, you see what happens on Facebook, but you don't see every single, you know, we all miss a certain feed or something that happens. So recently a friend of mine who I hadn't, you know, a good friend of mine who I hadn't talked to in over a year, we caught up over, over drinks and we were talking, I was like, Oh, you know, I've seen you on Facebook. It looks like you're having fun. Right. Cause she's posting pictures of herself on a boat and stuff like that. And she kind of looked at me sideways, like what? And I was just like, Hey, you know, I, you know, I don't, I'm not following everything, but I know.

And she was like, Oh, you didn't, you didn't hear. And her, her son passed away because he was, and he wasn't a drug addict or anything like that, but you know, he enjoyed Coke every once in a while. And he went after it was his birthday when the day after his, and his, so he was with his mom and his brother and all that other stuff. And the day after his birthday, he was at his apartment with a friend who brought a bag that was laced with fentanyl and literally with one, and you know, he probably hadn't done Coke in a month with one bump died immediately at 35 years old, 34 years old, you know what I mean? And I was just like, and so she had gone on her kind of hiatus for a year trying to cope with her, but I mean, loss of a child, like, are you kidding me?

And so, you know, I, that was a little bit of a wake up call for me. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not a, I'm not a heavy drug user in any way. I mean, we, we can argue whether that's drugs or not, but, um, you know, what I enjoy the occasional, whatever. And that to me was just like, Holy shit. Like to your point, how selfish could I be? I do feel like I have a lot to offer, you know, what's, you know, there's more to offer. Let's put it that way. And the selfish factor of doing something just because not thinking it through the impact that that could have on the other, you know, people that I'm supposed to be, you know, uh, trying to influence as far as my daughter and my wife, it's just, it's too important.

Right. Yeah. And if, you know, many of us will be familiar with the, uh, opiate epidemic that we have in the U S and probably globally right now. Um, I encourage people just to Google cocaine epidemic because that's coming, um, in Columbia. They've never, ever, ever planted so many, uh, coca plants. Um, and there's a significant increase in the amount of cocaine that's laced with fentanyl coming into the country. Um, you think about the amount of hands that go through from the point of Columbia, uh, which I think, uh, uh, produces 92% of cocaine globally, um, through to getting it into that little baggie, who knows what's going to be in it. And it's, and it's tough, you know, I used to be able to go through that phase of, I have a little bit of fun, et cetera, but then there became a turning point because I hadn't dealt with my emotions underlying.

Um, I then latched onto something and I was able to, um, to use that as, as that, um, coping mechanism. And it just, it just crushed me. You know, I really focus on the word crushed. If we think of, you know, young people that are coming out, um, of college going into SDR, BDR roles, the sheer pressure that there is to, to crush their numbers, to crush their quota, but actually it's them that's being crushed. It's if you have these underlying challenges, or maybe you don't have them now, but maybe most of us, uh, who have relationships with our birth parents, uh, or even adopted parents, we're going to lose them at some point in time. Um, and, and that can crush you. And so I'm really focused on this concept of uncrushing, you know, how we can actually help you obviously be successful in business, but making sure that you don't let your health get crushed.

Yeah. Yeah. To your point of Google, Google the cocaine epidemic, you know, there was something, you know, um, oh, what's his name? Uh, hell's kitchen. Um, uh, yeah, Gordon Ramsey. So there's a, I don't know if you've seen this. Uh, there's a video that he does where he goes and sees where cocaine is originally from and how it gets made. And he goes to Columbia and he goes to the cocoa plants are, but then the process that if you ever want to stop, by the way, if anybody's listening to this right now and you want to stop doing coke and you think that, you know, you, you know, you have a problem, but you don't want to admit it to anybody, go watch this video because it will scare you straight as far as why you should never do it.

Because the process, they like, they soak the leaves in battery acid. Then they grind them in like some acidic thing, like everything that they did. Then they pour gasoline to siphon out the stuff, like the amount of chemicals that go into extracting it. Like you'll look at that. It's kind of like, you know, when you look at McDonald's of how like a burger is made and you're like, Oh crap, you know, I don't want to make that, you know, or sausages and stuff like that. Um, it's a, it's a powerful, uh, video that he put together. And, you know, and I, and I think that, you know, I pick on coke because, you know, a dream force, for instance, I would say a solid portion, a solid percentage of the people that were out and about go, go, go all the time were, were heavy cocaine was being used all through dream force.

I just know for a fact, you know, based on people I know too. And I think that's a, that's one of those, um, chic drugs that it doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal. It's more glorified than anything else. And, and the issues that it causes, because it goes down that downward spiral, right. Of okay. A little bit. And out of any drug that I've ever come across, that's the one that hooks into your brain a lot. You know, that's the quote unquote casual drug, if you will, that hooks into you and doesn't let go as far as you're, you're thinking about it. Your brain wants it and those type of things. Um, and I, I, I've got to check the stats, but, um, the numbers of first time users and the numbers of overdoses, uh, well, over a million, um, in the last year alone, like they're significantly increasing.

And I also just want to call out like there is nothing wrong with being a drug addict in recovery, uh, or an alcoholic in recovery. And, uh, I really noticed this, particularly when, um, you probably remember the Demi Lovato overdose earlier this year. And, uh, she, she's been a massive advocate for speaking out about her sobriety. Um, and there is so much medical research that essentially shows that addiction is a disease. It's the same as, uh, effectively saying that you've got stage four cancer. This is something that is either, uh, genetically passed. Um, or in my case, it's not in, I have no history of addiction, but it's something that I've developed and it's something I'm going to have to live with for the rest of my life.

And the only answer that medical teams have found is things like Alcoholics Anonymous and the various 12 step programs. There is no medical solution to this. Um, and so I just want to voice that, uh, that anyone that's watching this, who, who, who is struggling with this, there is, there is a way forwards and, but, but it's not, you can't do it alone. And I, cause I've tried, I really tried to use myself well so much. Um, but I, I can't do it alone. And only at the point that I reached out for help and said, I couldn't do this alone. Um, whether it's a human, whether it's a higher power, uh, you know, really working on that spirituality only at that point was I truly able to start, uh, facing my emotions and going through as opposed to running away or going around.

So let's talk about that. How do you ask? I want to talk about two things. One is how do you ask for help? Um, like where can you go to feel comfortable? Because I think to your point, there's a stigma and a lot of people, you know, are, you know, HR, that type of thing. Like they don't know how they're going to be reacted to, to your point earlier, when you kick this off, it's like, you don't know how this is going to affect your career. And I think a lot of, you know, young people in their careers or even older people in their careers worry about saying something about this. Right. So I want to tackle that for a second, but then also the other side of it, which is for, for, for those of us that might not be stressed out going through shit, those types of things, what to look for in people that are right.

So that, so that we can advocate for them. And, and also what could I have said to you, for instance, you know what I mean? Like if, if I knew your dad passed and I knew, you know, and that obviously is not a, not cool for anybody. I don't care if you liked your dad or you hated your dad, you know, that's a bad, that that's a tough thing to deal with. What could I have said? You know what I mean? Cause I think a lot of people just kind of like, they don't know what to say when somebody, they know somebody is going through such a tough issue. So is there a way that first of all, to identify it, but then how to approach somebody? Cause you can't force somebody to get help, right? They have to want it.

So let's talk about both. I know that kind of went across a lot of stuff there. Let's talk about how to ask for help. Yeah. So first of all, many companies, so number one, particularly in the U S you cannot be discriminated against for, um, against this. Now I know that's easy to say, uh, and whether you are not going to be discriminated, like there's so many different scenarios. Um, many organizations, they have a third party support. Um, so it's a support company that is, or support service that's offered by your company. Um, and then there's, uh, this thing called HIPAA in the U S. Um, so none of your data, none of your information, nothing you're sharing can be shared with your employer.

So if I look at my personal, uh, time off early this year, which was a medical leave of absence, um, none of the data, nothing that was going on with me was communicated to my company. What was communicated was I'm sick and I'm getting help. Now I've obviously made a massive decision to be vocal about this today and about what my journey is. And I have a lot of fear about that, but I feel so strongly that I, I want to speak up about this and I hope it doesn't impact my career, but I, there's just people dying all around us and, and, and it's a massive issue. So, so number one, I would say in terms of support, obviously look at what your HR employee success teams offer. Number two, um, just go to Alcoholics Anonymous.

Uh, there is a phone number there and just replace the word alcohol with anything, whether it's, uh, marijuana, cocaine, um, heroin, sex, food, there are the anonymous 12 step programs. Uh, there's something for everyone and they can, with this hotline number, they can help you, um, you know, with your, with your local meeting. Um, and then the other area that, um, uh, I'm really working on, this is something that we're going to be launching in the new year, uh, is a community focused on this challenge. And so, um, there's three of us that are working on this, Lindsey Boggs, Tammy McQueen, and myself, uh, we're putting together a microsite, a community, um, a dedicated place where we will be able to communicate, whether it's one-on-one, if you want to do it privately, uh, whether you want to do it in this group setting, if you want to share your story and we're working right now with many faces and names that, you know, your audience would be familiar with.

Um, they're going to be sharing their stories as well. Um, and then finally, you know, just offering my own support. So my cell phone number 415-640-2943, uh, my email address, tclark, T-C-L-A-R-K-E at salesforce.com. Uh, and I'm more than happy to, uh, listen, um, or obviously guide. Now to answer your second part of the question about how you can support someone else, I just finished, uh, an eight week self-compassion course, something, um, that is offered in San Francisco twice a year. Um, and one of the tools there that, um, we practiced was compassionate listening. And it's something really to practice on just listening, not saying anything, don't try and fix, don't try and jump in. Um, there's this kind of the saying in the room, it's like, don't pass the Kleenex because when you're passing that tissue, you're kind of saying, Hey, I'm uncomfortable with your crying.

Can you, can you stop? Um, so just practice listening. And, and that's obviously, you know, something we practice in sales day in, day out, uh, rather than just trying to push you listen. Um, and then from that point there, I would say, try and share from your own experience. So for me, I don't try and give advice or try and fix things, but if I can relate, they say in the rooms, uh, look for the similarities, not the differences and, you know, use this, see if you can relate to them. And if you can't, I'm sure, you know, as someone who can. So, so a nuance to that though, because is the, the, you know, I make fun of the, the one upper, right. The person that's like, Oh yeah, your problem is this and check out mine, you know?

And, and so I, I worry a little bit about relating to people and say, Oh yeah, I've gone through something similar. Right. How would you like with your father passing, you know, somebody else's father passed, um, how would you, I, you know, the, you know, I'm trying to like the danger there of coming in and saying, Oh, I understand. Cause I've been through it before, which is empathy. And Hey, I, you know, I want to show you, I care versus giving me my opinion. I totally agree with that. But also there's also kind of like, dude, let me grief about my problem. You know what I mean? Like I like, like, how do you, how do you balance that of, of relating versus, versus just listening to your point?

One of the things I struggle with any, uh, anytime someone knew about my dad is they go, sorry for your loss. And I'm like, fuck, can you just like, and I know it's just someone being polite, but in my mind, I'm like, that doesn't help me. And it's just kind of creating some awkwardness here. So what I've learned is number one, there's nothing I can say. There is nothing I can say to help that person. But one thing I can do is offer a hug. Um, there is, there's so much research on the importance of, uh, of human touch or physical contact. You know, particularly if you're having an anxiety attack or stressful moment, just placing your hand on your heart and breathing, just feeling that, uh, that touch, even giving yourself a hug, as silly as that may sound, it works.

Um, and so what I would personally do is I would give a hug, as assuming obviously they are open to that respecting people's boundaries. Um, and then secondly, just say, if, and when you want to talk, I'm here and I'm ready to listen. And I just want you to know that I'm, I'm here for you. Um, and there really is putting the onus on that individual, uh, if they want to speak up, if, and when they're ready, uh, they know that they have someone to talk to. And, and that's really going back to my, my last answer about the community that that's really what the three of us are trying to do is we want to set up this community to say, Hey, we're here. We we've, we've suffered from addiction, from grief, um, from suicidal ideations.

And so if you want to talk and you don't necessarily want to go to one of these support services offered by your company, or maybe do both, you know, we, this is certainly not replacing, um, medical professional advice, um, but just, you know, we're, we're here to listen. Um, that's the key thing is, is, uh, compassionate listening is, is there something. So I think that's, uh, that because you don't know what people are going through, right. Um, both at work at home, um, how proactive should you be at, at engaging with people that, they, you, you kind of get a sense something's going on, you know what I mean? You kind of get a sense. Cause we all have that. You, you, sometimes you see that shift in somebody's personality, you see them, you know, start acting differently or whatever it is, or kind of take, take a step back from where they usually were, I guess as a, as, as, as, as a bystander, if you will, how proactive should somebody in the workspace be a boss, a friend, uh, just even a colleague who might not know you all that well, you know, is it, are, is it their place to, to approach or is it, are, is it their place to pay attention and, and look for any type of warning signs, I guess.

I've had several friends who committed suicide and I think back to what if I'd done something different? What if I'd asked them? What if I'd, I put a lot on myself and it's a really tough question because I know certainly for me in my hardest times, I didn't want to speak to anybody. So I would separate it out into two buckets. I think one as a manager, um, you know, there are certain obligations you need to make sure that your employee is performing. Um, and if they're not performing, you need to dig into why they're not performing. Um, and then that's where there's a number of different tools open to you in terms of offering your employee support, whether it's time off, whether it's a medical leave, um, whether it's just saying again that you're there to listen.

Um, and I think it's, it's the same from a friend point of view as well is absolutely keep your eyes open for these warning signs. Um, and then just check in with them, just check in and see how they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. I think to your point, you know, when my, when my friend, uh, uh, uh, we were having that drink, my, my reaction, there's nothing you can say to a mother that lost her child. There's literally nothing you can say. And the hug was just my gut reaction. Cause I, cause that was it, you know what I mean? And, and, um, I think people discount how far a nice gesture can go. Um, one of the things I always try to say, you know, at the end of the, you know, the podcast is like, try to make somebody smile today.

Cause you never know that person that is in that world of hurt spot. Right. But might not be showing it. You show a little bit of compassion, a little bit of empathy, a little bit of just being a good person. And that could be the thing that, that stops them from going over the edge might not stop them from being where they are, but might stop them from going over the edge. Yeah. I love like walking my dog and just people smiling at him. Uh, the, the one thing I will say is I think there's two trains of thought on the concept of fake it till you make it. Um, I'm a big believer in not faking it. Um, if you don't feel like smiling today, if you feel that you're sad today, feel that sit with that emotion because that is what I did not do.

I had a mask on for five years and it nearly killed me. And so the most important thing is to be connected with your emotions. And I guarantee you that right now, I truly believe that I'm one of the best employees that anyone could hire because I'm in touch with myself. I know what is going on with myself. I know how much I can put into work. Um, and I know that I have healthy coping mechanisms and it's very rare that people get time off to be inward facing, um, uh, whether it's addiction or depression or whatever, just to actually look at your shit in your life. And for me personally, it goes all the way back to childhood. Um, so just, just feel what you're feeling because I stopped doing that and I forgot how to feel and it's still something I struggle with now.

Um, and so one of the kind of tools that I use, uh, is number one is just naming that emotion. So, oh, I'm, I'm feeling sad right now. Um, number two is locating that emotion. Where do you feel it, uh, physically? So perhaps it's in your heart, uh, in your stomach, in your head. Um, and then number three is it's called soften, soothe and allow. And that's really just showing compassion to those, uh, to that emotion that you're feeling. And so that's rather than trying to suppress it, push it away, uh, or ignore it. Um, you're really sitting with that emotion and recognizing that it is happening. Um, and just also just looking at the interconnectedness of humans. Like when we look at suffering, we're all going through this and that's why we're talking about this today.

And so just knowing that everything we're talking about, there is at least one other person in the world that is feeling this. And sometimes that can reduce the amount of pain that that individual feels. Yeah. I think the, the letting it sit and recognizing it is, is so important. You know, I, I, I've tried to start to get into meditation and just, and one of the things I use, I don't know if you've heard about it, but probably the headspace, you know, that the app headspace. And what's interesting to me is it kind of walks you through how to meditate. And one of the things that really calls out is don't try to force the silence. Just be, you know, if you hear a car, if you hear a car in the background, listen to the car, you know what I mean?

Like if you hear a bird outside, don't be mad at the bird because like, shut up. I'm trying to meditate here. Like, like let it sink in. And I think that's a lot to do with people just dealing with the stress and anxiety. It's just, you know, the more you try to avoid it, the worse it gets. As you say, with meditation, there's nothing to get. I think about it with like, like a river and all the different leaves that are sitting on the river. They're just all my different thoughts. One of the other great apps, which actually started off as a book is by Dan Harris. It's called 10% Happier. He's, you know, one of the main news anchors in New York City. And he really talks about his personal journey with meditation.

He didn't like the kind of some of the bullshit that comes out of people like Deepak Chopra and this Nirvana that they have. He's very realistic and he's struggled with meditating. And he has a newborn kid. He has a wife. He's had marital issues. He's struggled with cocaine. And he just talks about, hey, this is how much meditation I do in a day, but it's two minutes here, five minutes there, seven minutes there. So that's another great app that you can, you can check out. And also just remembering that meditation doesn't have to be just sitting down, doing nothing. It could be mindful eating. So take your lunch, don't sit at your desk, put your phone away and just eat. It could be mindful walking as you're walking down the street, just feeling each footstep and just having gratitude for the fact that your feet and your legs have carried you through so much and they're giving you so much of this power.

And then finally, just looking around you, pick five things that are in the room. Maybe it's a flower, maybe it's a color on a wall and just show some gratitude and appreciation for that because that's bringing you into the now. That's bringing you into the present. And for me personally, I struggled because I was either living in the past or living in the future. And the only moment we have is now. And I was fucking up my now because I wasn't in the now. It's the exercise that I've said this before. One of the, I don't know where I picked it up, but a good friend of mine was going through some really, you know, bad times. And a lot of times, momentum's a bitch, right? Because when things are going negative, they seem to keep going negative, right?

When things are going positive. And so, you know, I'm not a huge Tony Robbins fan, but the whole change your state is, it's real, right? And so what I asked her to do, I said, you know, shoot, everything was negative. And I said, Hey, do me a favor. I want you to take a, and I gave her a notebook and I'm like, I want you to take this notebook and I want you to write down every positive thing that happens to you today. And by the way, I don't care how small it might be. Somebody opened the door for you. Somebody, you know, you hit a green light on your way to work. You've got a text from a friend you hadn't heard from, whatever it was, just write it down. And I want you to come back at the end of the day and we'll talk about it, right?

And so she did. And she came back at the end of the day and we got together and I was like, how was your day? She's like, John, this was the best day I've had. And I can't tell you how long. I was like, why? She's like, I never realized how many positive things happened to me on a day to day basis. And, and, and, and no, she said like today was just a super positive day for whatever reason, all these positive things happened to me. And I said, did they happen to you just today? Or was it that you were finally looking for them? Yeah. And, and, and that's, that was her aha moment. She's like, I had such a negative view that I was only looking at negative things and none of the positive things.

You know, I say to people, I don't watch the news much anymore because it just really, especially right now, pisses me off. But, but I used to watch the news for a very specific reason was to remind myself that no matter how bad my day is, I could legitimately have the worst day of my life. And it's not a fraction of how bad some people have it. Yeah. Yeah. I, I completely agree. And to think about to that point there, like do a daily gratitude list, list five things that you're grateful for. Try and keep it unique from the day before and then share it with someone. Um, again, like we're, the big purpose of doing this is, is to get people talking, um, to avoid all these untold, unanswered, um, uh, stories and questions and really to unite people.

Um, and you know, you and me talked about this really, like one of the main goals here is as people watch this, um, I know we want to have a further discussion perhaps in the new year with Lindsay and Tammy. Um, and so we really want to gather in like people's questions, you know, what, what areas should we go deeper on? Um, you know, we've got people like us who are very willing to be open, to be vulnerable, um, and to share our stories. And so now I guess we're putting the onus on the audience here watching this of what are your experiences and what do you want to hear more about? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the, is, is, you know, would love to get the conversation out in the open, but there are still some people that are not going to be comfortable, you know, being like on a video talking about our problems, but let's give them a forum to at least ask the question so we can talk about it.

Uh, and I hope that this kind of leads to a similar scenario where, you know, we can have a, an open dialogue and get a bunch of people engaged, um, and, and, and answer those questions. A lot of people are having a hard time dealing with to hopefully save, you know, I always say that like, if you can do one thing to, to change one person's perspective, you know, there's not much better you can do in life than, than to help somebody out. Right. Ultimately, no matter how much money you make or any of that stuff, it's, you know, if you can genuinely change somebody's life for the better, um, you know, that's what I believe we're here for. Right. So, yeah. I completely agree. And, uh, I really appreciate the opportunity to, to share this stuff today.

And as I said, I have a lot of fear, but I, I, um, I hope like to your point there, if this has just helped one person, um, then I've achieved my goal. I, I just feel so strongly and so passionately about this. Um, there's just so much suffering and there are so many people with so much potential, so much that they can do in the world and they can get caught up down dangerous paths. And so, you know, hopefully this, this is the start of a journey to change that. Yeah. And I, again, I applaud you for, for sort of speaking so openly about it, because I know it's not easy. Um, and I know there, there is kind of that fear of how people will take it, but you know, at the end of the day, if you surround yourself with the right people and are working for the right company, I mean, I, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to work for a company that judged me because I had issues, you know what I mean?

Or judge me because I was open up all my problems. Um, you know, if, if I usually say if they fire you or for whatever reason or something like that, that's probably for the best, you know what I mean? As shitty as it might have been in the short term, it's usually a better long-term play anyways. Yeah. So, um, so Tim, where you said you're starting a community, um, uh, where can people go? I mean, I know you gave your your phone number and your email address. Um, is there, is there a place where, as you see this community, you want people to go check out to, to keep this conversation going? Yeah. And so it's, it's very much in, uh, uh, building stage right now, but, um, the community is going to be called Uncrushed and that really focuses on again, the crushing aspect that I thought about earlier on.

You're trying to crush your business, you're getting crushed yourself. And the fact that there are so many untold, unanswered stories, and really this community is going to, uh, you, uh, unite. Um, so we had the domain, uh, uncrushed.org. Uh, we'll be building out a community where we're going to link to that. Um, and yeah, watch that space as it's built out over the next couple of months and we're really going to launch it in January. Um, so in the interim, you know, reach out to me, uh, reach out to you and we'll get the right people connected. Awesome. And, and we'll, you know, we should, uh, follow up after this cause we're doing, I told you the sales done right. Right. So we're starting that community too, based on the, the, um, we need to talk webinar that we did.

And, you know, there's going to be a channel for culture and those types of things. So we should kind of figure out a way to, to, you know, have these two things amplify each other. Um, yeah, about this afterwards. All right, everybody. Well, uh, Tim, again, thank you so much, man. Um, and, and as a friend, I'm glad, uh, you got through and, and you're getting through, you know, to your point, it's not a, it's not an end, it's not an end zone, right? There's no end to the journey. Uh, it's a constant, uh, evolution, I guess, if you will. So, um, um, um, hopefully, uh, this was, this is going to help, like you said, a few people, if nothing else, and keep this conversation going in the right way.

So I really appreciate you coming on board here, man. Cheers. Thanks, bro. All right. Cheers. All right, everybody. Make it a great day. And like I said, make somebody smile today. All right. Have a great one. Cheers. Bye. Bye. Bye.