9: Stop Doing What You're Supposed To Be Doing

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Make It Happen Mondays. This is Jay Barrow, John Barrows of Jay Barrow's Consulting. Appreciate y'all joining me here today. It's a fantastic day here in Boston. Weather's about 75 degrees. Spring is here. Opened up the backyard yesterday, which was awesome. Yeah, and just in an overall good mood. So just wanted to kind of make sure that we're moving in the right direction here. Last week had a awesome... Hold on a second. Let me just make sure I'm casting here. Are we on? Just want to make sure that... Yeah, I'm sorry. Last week had an awesome session with Morgan. And hopefully you joined in on that one. That kid's doing some very cool things. And hopefully him and I are going to be doing some more things together here, moving up here soon.

So keep an eye on that. But today's Make It Happen Monday is going to be about just stop doing what you're supposed to do. That's the theme of this. I wanted to chime in on this because I get a lot of reps asking me about, hey, John, what should I do about that? What should I do about this? And they're getting directions from their managers. They're getting directions from their careers or whatever. And so I wanted to chime in a little bit on this, a few learning lessons that I've had in my career, in my life. And just share a couple of stories. And then obviously open it up for questions. There's a few questions that you guys asked based on the last session. So I'll address those. And then obviously chime in anytime here and ask questions.

I'll jump into them. So the whole theme of stop doing what you're supposed to do hit me in two ways or two stories, one personal, one professional. And really, it was about as I went through my career and went through my life, I was kind of going through the motions and, you know, just doing what I thought I was supposed to do. So as an example, the first one was more of a personal one where, you know, I'd say my freshman year in college, I ended up meeting this girl and just sticking with her for seven years and then moving back up to Boston, moved her to Boston. And I knew the relationship wasn't right, but I was supposed to, you know, I was doing what I was supposed to do. Like after you're with somebody for seven years, what do you do, right?

You, you get engaged and you get married, then you get a house and you buy, then you, you know, buy a car and a house and then you have a kid, right? All that stuff that you're supposed to do. Even though I knew it was wrong, I was going through that because I didn't really think any other way. Now, thankfully, she's the one who actually broke it off on us. And I was heartbroken, but I, you know, I'd say about two days after that, it felt like the weight of the world lifted off my shoulders. And then I went out there and was able to find my wife now, who I am absolutely in love with and now have the actual family and lifestyle that I want when it's right. Right. So that was one on the personal side of just being woken up, even though I knew it was wrong, you know, somebody else had to make that decision for me.

And I don't want that to happen again in my personal life. On the professional side, you know, it was when I started my first company, you know, joined a company that my buddy started. And when we got through and, you know, seven years, start up, grind and doing everything I was supposed to do, um, or at least working my ass off and trying to. And then I got, we got acquired by Staples and, you know, I was just going through when I had my head down, I was grinding, I was doing everything that, that again, I thought I was supposed to do based on what they were telling me. And again, I knew it was wrong. Something was wrong that, that, that didn't feel right to me. And I didn't have the confidence or I guess the knowledge to speak up and say anything about it.

So eventually they fired me again, they made the decision for me. And again, at first I was like, Oh, what am I supposed to do here? Like I, you know, this is what I bled this company for seven years. I had no plan B. I didn't even think about anything else. And, and now all of a sudden I woke up and I had to find a job. Now for me, thankfully there was a transition period there where they gave me, you know, severance and a few other things, but you know, I woke up again, maybe this took, this time it maybe took a week, but when I woke up a week later and again, it was like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders and I was out to go, you know, spread my wings and go do what I wanted to do.

Not what I was supposed to do. Right. And a learning lesson from that one too, this actually ties into some of the closing techniques that I, that I talk about in my trainings. I train on negotiation, objection, and closing as well as prospecting. And one of the closing techniques is called the, it's called the walk away. Actually, I'm sorry. It's called the doorknob close or the Columbo close, which is effectively after you've lost a deal, you, you know, you go back to the client and say, Hey, what was the real reason that I lost that deal? And the reason you do that is to learn. Now the sleazy sales way of applying that is once they tell you, you jump right back into it and say, Oh, I'm sorry.

I didn't realize, you know, we can do that. Right. That's, I think that's the douchey sales rep way of doing that. But I usually do that approach trying to, trying to learn from my own personal and professional development. And I do this with lost deals as well. So for instance, when I lose a deal that I really thought that I was going to win, um, I'll go back to the client and I'll say, Hey, you know what, just for my own personal professional development here, could you help me understand what really happened? And I'd say probably one out of five will give me some insights there that are better than the deal I would have won anyways. Right. Cause I'll learn and apply that moving forward. Um, and I use that when I law, when I got fired from Staples.

So this guy, Jay Baitler, quick story on this one, um, when they were acquiring us, so Ron Sargent is a guy who ran all of worldwide Staples. Jay Baitler was the guy who ran the $12 billion part of their organization on the contract side, which purchased us. And when they were going through the interviews, um, it's a, before the acquisition, they had to meet with all the management team and we were super young. I'd say we were 27, 28 years old, something like that. So we had a consultant come in and talk to us about the process and what was going to happen. And he gave us some tips on what they probably should, we're going to ask and what we should probably say. And so, you know, for me, a lot of it didn't feel right, but everybody was like, John, please just follow the script, man.

Just do what you're supposed to do here. Don't fuck this up because they know I'm pretty unfiltered and I could, might've said something that screwed the whole deal up. And I wasn't a majority shareholder. So I was like, all right, I'll kind of do what I'm told here. And so then Jay interviewed us one by one and I sat there and he interviewed. And so, so what do you think about the acquisition? And I was, I was about as fake as it could get, you know, and I'm pretty bad at being fake. I'm a terrible liar because I'm just about as transparent as it gets. So, so I was like, Oh, this is going to be fantastic. I'm super excited. And even though I had a ton of concerns about the whole culture and selling value and all these different things, but I played my role.

Right. So then fast forward, Jay met with my CEO and my CEO was like, so what'd you think of the management team? He's like, Oh, you got a great management team. You know, everybody's really solid. There's one person I have a little bit of concern about and it's John. And my CEO was floored. He was like, what? He's like, out of anybody I thought you would have had a, you know, would have loved, it would have been John. You know, he's our culture. He's like, I'm the one who stood up at the beginning of every month and gave the rah, rah speech. You know, I read a raving fan culture and everything. Right. I mean, I was one of, I was like the fifth person on board. So he was like, wow. And Jay was like, yeah.

And so Jim, my CEO defended me and it's a noise, the right guy, whatever. But that started a negative perception from Jay of me from the start, even though I didn't even really know it. And then they acquired us and we were going through it. And the whole time I was just like, man, you know, something's off about me and Jay. I just want to go grab a beer with this guy. Cause I think I felt like that meeting wasn't right. And I felt like he had a bad perception of me. And I felt like if I had, I had just grabbed a beer with this guy, we'd be able to see more, excuse me, more eye to eye. But Jim always was protecting me. Like, well, what he thought was protecting me. He was like, no, John, you know, let me deal with that.

You go just execute and, and we'll take care of it. Cause he was afraid again, that I would go talk to Jay, say something stupid or, you know, again, not have my filter on and get fired. And so, you know, I went through the hole for about six months, uh, about a year, almost a year into this. And eventually, um, they ended up, again, they ended up firing me. And after I came to grips with it and, um, after I was done, I ended up reaching back out to Jay doing again, the doorknob slash Columbo close and said, Hey Jay, you know, now that we're done, you know, I'm, I, Hey, I'm not, I'm not groveling for my job back here or anything like that. You know, I just, would you be open to just a one hour meeting where I can, you know, I could just talk to you for my own personal and professional development and, and see what, you know, what really happens.

Um, and he was, he was more than accommodating. He came back to me. He was like, absolutely, John, you know, come on in here, schedule some time with my assistant and go, right. So I scheduled time. I actually prepared for the meeting. I came up with 10 questions for him based on, you know, again, very thoughtful things that I, I just wanted to learn about myself. We sat there. And when I tell you that was the best hour in business I've ever spent, I'm not exaggerating. We spent, first of all, he came, he was like, John, get in here. He's like, you know what, one of my, he's like, I am so impressed with your, uh, just the fact that you reached out to me looking for this feedback. He's like, one of my favorite things to do is mentor leaders and organizations and that type of stuff.

So the hour is yours, my friend, you ask me whatever you want to ask. And I said, look, Jay, I got 10 questions here. You could be as open and honest as you want to be. You don't have to answer some of them if you don't want. Um, but you know, I'd really appreciate your insights. And he said, okay, cool. I'll answer them all. And he answered every single one of them. And one of the questions I asked him was, Hey, Jay, would you have been open to a meeting like this? You know, like where it was open dialogue, whatever, when I was at Thrive. And he goes, well, yeah, of course I would have. Why wouldn't I have? I said, well, Jay, you know, I was under the impression, at least I was told that, you know, I really couldn't talk to you really open and frank because there there's a risk there.

And like, you might've fired me. And, and then that would have, you know, upset my team and the whole company and all this other stuff. So that's why I was kind of on the impression that I wasn't really allowed to talk to you. And he said something to me, which has stuck to me this day. And he said, John, what was the, what's the risk? What's the risk? I was like, well, what do you mean? I'll get fired and, you know, and my company and I'd let down the people that I was working more, you know, working with and everything else. I said, okay, well, let me ask you this. He goes, say, say you came to me. So you went over your CEO's head. You came to me, you had this conversation and I absolutely shredded you.

And I ratted you out to your CEO and all that other stuff. And it was, I was really pissed off at it. He's like, would you have wanted to work for me? I was like, well, no, absolutely not. It's like, so you would have figured out a lot earlier that you didn't want to work for me. Right. And you probably would have made better plans. Yeah, that's probably he's like, so you wouldn't have gone through that year of pain that you just went through. Did you, would you have? I'm like, well, no, he goes, okay. Other, other approach. Say you come to me and we have a really good conversation just like this. And he's like, do you think we would have probably had a much better working relationship and you would have enjoyed your time here at Staples a lot more?

I'm like, well, obviously he goes, then I'm going to ask you again, what was the risk? And that stuck with me to this day. It's like, what's the risk, right? I think, you know, one of my guiding principles, if you go back on them, you can go, you can Google them and they're on my LinkedIn page, you know, um, 12 guiding principles to life to success and life business and, and sales. Um, one of them is it used to be always have a plan B. I disagree with that. I don't think you need a plan B. What I think you need to be is, is totally cool with, um, the worst case scenario. You got to be absolute, like whenever you make a decision about something, this is kind of how I guide my life these days is whenever I make a decision to invest in something, to do something, whatever it is, I asked myself, okay, what's the absolute worst case scenario on this one, right?

Well, the absolute worst case scenario is whatever, as long as I'm okay with that, then I go ahead and I make that decision. And that's what I learned from, from Jay. And also from my former fiance is again, stop going through the motions, stop doing what you're supposed to do. You know, take that risk, as long as it's for the right reasons, you should be able to hold your head up high. And as long as you're okay with the worst case scenario. And I say this to a lot of you who are out there asking me questions about John, what do I do with my life? You know, my business, my career, my job, I'm frustrated, whatever it is. I think a lot of it has to do with sitting down and saying, you know, okay, what do I want to do?

What was the right thing that I got to do what I'm supposed to do for a little while to make sure that like I'm, I'm crossing those T's and dotting those eyes. But once I do that and it's still not working or it still doesn't feel right, like what's the next thing? What, what else could I be doing here to, to change things up a little bit? And so I want you to walk away with a lot of people say, okay, make $50 a day. You know, I think we're in a tough spot right now with sales, especially inside sales, because I think we're in this middle ground of being told, Hey, we got to do quality and account-based sales and account-based marketing and all that other stuff. And you got to be hyper-focused and send customized emails, but yet we still got to make $50 a day.

We still got to make a hundred dollars a day or whatever it is. So I think a lot of sales reps are in this middle ground of, well, okay, I get that. I want to do really quality stuff, but I'm being told I have to hit my KPIs. And if I don't do this, I'm going to get dinged. So my, here's an example, stop doing what you're supposed to do. Do that, do that for a week, right? Hit those numbers and then track every little component of it, right? How many calls did you make? How many emails did you send out? How many responses did you get? That type of thing. And then spend a week not doing that. Spend a week being hyper-focused, doing homework, writing thoughtful emails, coming up with contact strategies that are, that are tailored to the people that you're reaching out to, right?

Those types of things. And, and compare the results. If the results are better than, than like, say the thoughtful, your, your conversion ratio is a lot higher here. So say you sent out 50 emails, right? For instance, a day. So say 250 in that week and you got 10 meetings or let's call it five meetings. Cause that's probably more realistic. Okay. So you got five meetings, but then you've spent a week making, sending 50, very thoughtful, 50 total. And you got five meetings, right? You can bring that back to your boss and say, Hey boss, I've been looking at, you know, I under, I totally appreciate, I want me, I'm trying to hit these KPIs that you're asking this week though. I spent some time doing a little bit of a different approach.

here and look at the results. What do you want me to do? Right? Any manager that's worth their salt is going to say, Hey, if you, if you can show me results using your approach and it's a better approach and keep doing that, right? Any manager worth their salt. If they're not, that's where you start kind of looking around and saying, okay, am I really at the right place? Am I really with the right manager? Okay. So put the premise of, of if I'm doing the right things for the right reasons, for the benefit of myself, but also the benefit of my company that I'm working for and the benefit of the customers do what you do, what's the right thing to do, not what you're supposed to do, do what you think is the right thing to do and try to justify it for the right reasons.

All right. And just stop going through the motions. I think that's the one thing that I keep trying to work with kids on. And when I'm doing training is just, you know, a lot of us are just going through the motions, you know, we're showing up every day and we're making our dials, we're sending our emails or whatever it is. And, you know, and it's, first of all, that's a boring ass career, man. That's a boring ass job. That's a boring ass thing. And you get burnt out real fast. So, but if you put some thought into it, if you think every day, what do I want to learn today? What do I want to want to figure out today? That's where it starts to become real interesting. And that's why you hear me talk a lot about, you know, in the past about split testing, everything you do, you know what I mean?

Come in and say, what do I want to figure out today? What's the challenge I'm having? And let me come up with two different approaches to that and try it 10 times this way, 10 times that way. See which yields a better response. You start doing that every day, you start getting better so much faster and you start learning things so much, so much more efficiently. All right. And then you have a sign, then you have an equation that you can apply as you become manager and all that other stuff. So just, um, stop doing what you're supposed to do. I mean, do, do what you're supposed to do, but, but when it feels wrong or it doesn't feel right, or you keep going through the motions, try something different and, and, and try to break out of that mold of kind of going through the process of, okay, I've got to do two years doing this and two years doing that and two years doing this and to, you know, or I have to go through this and then I have to be big business and try to start up, do something different, be a consultant.

Why not? Especially if in your twenties, try fucking everything out. You know, I kind of follow the Gary V, uh, train of thought here in your twenties, literally try every fucking thing you could possibly imagine, make as many mistakes as you can because you don't have any responsibilities. You usually don't have any mistakes. You know, you can still go, you know, sleep on your buddy's couch if you want to, if you screw things up. So in your thirties, just really start to solidify where you want to be. And then in your forties, if you haven't figured it out by then, you're kind of screwed. So anyways, I just want to point that out. It's been on my mind because a lot of you've been asking me questions about John.

What about this? My boss hasn't asked me to do that. And my company is doing this and whatever it is, just be okay with worst case scenario, do it for the right reasons and stop just doing what you think you're supposed to do both personally and professionally. I promise you, you know, the day that somebody else makes that decision for you and you realize that it was the right decision. So again, you did, they walk, you know, they break up in a relationship or they fire you from a job when you knew it wasn't right, but they did the, they made the decision for you. They're going to make the decision. Eventually, if it doesn't feel right, they're going to make that decision for you anyways. But the day you wake up, when that happens to you, you realize shit, you know what, that was probably the best thing that ever happened to me.

You're going to understand what I'm talking about here. So anyways, I'm going to flip this back over to questions. I know Allie had a question here. While you're in the field, what was your biggest, most rewarding deal you ever closed? Can you speak to how it, how you get it done? Yeah. So this one, I have a few of them. I think a more recent one was I got Salesforce locked into a two-year commit on my online portal, which was great. That took a lot of digging and clawing and negotiating with both procurement and leveraging my champion. I think one of the big things about procurement and getting deals done is, and what I've really started to understand a lot more is how important champions are in your deals.

And when I say champion, there's, there's, you know, a lot of people talk about champions and, and, you know, I don't think they really define them really well enough. A champion isn't somebody that's just willing to talk to you or you have a good conversation with. A champion is somebody, you know, my characteristics champions, two, two characteristics here. One is they can steal budget. Um, they don't have to be the budget holder. They don't have to be the person that says, yes, I am the budget, you know, who's signing off on this budget, but they can steal it. They can go in and, uh, and take it if they need to. So they're effectively, they're sitting in the room when the decision's made.

And, um, and they can say, no, no, no, we need to go here as opposed to here. The other is they agree to be your champion. You actually have that conversation with them where you can say, Hey, you know, are you going to be my champion? Are you going to help me make this deal happen? That type of thing. Because my experience is really only two reasons, uh, two, two answers to that question. One is yes, John, absolutely. We're going to work together and make this happen. The other is anything other than that. If you hesitate, when I say, Hey, you're going to help me work, you know, make this happen, whatever. Um, and they hesitate, they're not your champion. You got to figure out something else to do there to get them to be your champion.

All right. So, so I had a champion at Salesforce and, you know, I've been working together with him, knew the value of what was going on, mapped out this whole plan. And then we had to restructure. We had to, we kind of had to look at things and say, okay, now we got to do an open license agreement for my portal and all this other stuff. And, you know, I wanted to at least a two-year commit here because we were doing an open license, which meant that everybody could take my training in a week. And if they wanted to cancel the contract, they could. And what am I going to do against Salesforce? Right. So worked a while with this guy, got him, built him as my champion. And then when procurement came up, he was the one who made that happen on the backend for me.

And, um, and he actually even sent me an email saying, Hey, you're welcome. I was like, thank you very much. Um, the one that I would say where I was really in the field, and this was back at thrive networks. Um, and this is all about patients, you know, our average deal size. When I was, when I was selling at thrive, we sold outsourced it services and it was, um, it was our average deal size was about $3,500 a month. That's what you had to spend with us on a monthly basis for us to manage your infrastructure. So service workstations, backup security, and this was before cloud was sexy and whatever. There was this one account. It was a, it was a pharmaceutical company here in Boston. And I came across and they were using one of our biggest competitors and spending a whole boatload of money with this, with this company.

And so I met their, their main decision maker guy. And he was like, you know, I ended up, I forget how I got in there to tell you the truth. I really don't remember. I think it was either, you know, typical cold calling or whatever. And I got in front of this guy and he was open to the conversation. And I went in and met with him and I told him what we had to offer. He's like, this is all great, John. I really appreciate it. But we're working with XYZ company and you know, I'm totally cool with where they are right now. But what he said to me was, he goes, look, I'm, I just want to let you know, I'm a three strikes and you're out type of guy. Okay. He's like, as a vendor, he's like, you screw up once.

No problem. When everybody screws up once, right? You screw up twice, you're on notice. He's like, but then you screw up three times. It's not even a conversation. It's I'm moving on to another vendor. He goes, so John, just stay in touch with me. And just realize that one day you're going to get, you might get a call from me and saying, Hey, you're up, batter up type of thing. I was like, all right, great. I was like, how could I stay in touch with you? And this is, I asked him, and this is something that you could ask your clients too, as a little nugget to walk away from this with is, Hey, what's the best way to communicate with you moving forward here? And how do I stay in touch with you without being annoyed?

Right. Because a lot of people just, you know, the whole, you know, my feelings on touch base and check-in and that type of shit. Um, and he was like, well, you know, he was like, if you ever come across this type of information or if something ever changes on your end, or you're coming out with a new service or something like that, you know, just feel free to share that stuff with me and whatever. I said, okay, cool. So now I was at Thrive for seven years. Okay. Um, I ended up, this deal took three years, three years to make happen, but all three, they were always on my list. I put them on my whiteboard as that big white whale that I wanted. Right. And I put him and I followed him and, uh, and I would share information every once in a while, not, not ridiculous.

I would, you know, check in without touching base or checking in, sharing some new insights, giving them some, um, uh, updated information on our company. Like he had asked for those types of things. And I remember vividly, I was walking down, I was on Boylson street in, uh, in Boston, walking down after a meeting with another client and he calls me up. He goes, Hey John, strike three, you're up. And I was like, what? And it was three years later, by the way, he's like, yep, you're up. And I was like, shit. He's like, when can you meet? I'm like, I can meet right now if you want me to. So I remember going over to his office, um, meeting up with him. He's like, all right, map this out. And it ended up being $50,000 a month.

Well, it started at $25,000 a month. And then it very quickly, uh, uh, increased to 50 G's a month. And it was by far the biggest deal that we had ever brought into our company. And I think that one has a lot, had a lot to do with, you know, takeaways there is patience, um, uh, not being annoying, making sure that you're staying on top of it, asking what the client wants and staying in touch with them, but, but never pushing too hard. And that's why you'll always hear me say, you know, the biggest, um, biggest solution to every other problem at every other stage of the sales process, you know, negotiations, discounting, all that stuff. The biggest solution to all of it is a big fat pipeline.

You know, when you have a big fat pipeline, you can, you can be patient like that. You don't have to push. So I know a lot of us out there are being, you know, transitioning territories every year or so. So it's really hard to kind of take that long-term view there. But I will say for me, um, one of my other guiding principles that I talk about is I live my life by the rule of what, what goes around, comes around, right? The more you put into it and you might not get that huge deal that you've been thinking about, but another one might come, another one will probably come in when you move territories, when you move roles or anything like that. So those are my two favorite deals. You know, one more recent that really had to do with a champion, uh, another one that was, um, a lot more long, you know, earlier in my career, but, um, was, uh, was really based on patience and, and profiling that account and staying in touch with them in a very thoughtful way without being annoying.

So thanks for the question, Ali. Um, Connor, you got a question here. Outsourced IT sales. What worked most when you were meeting with customers and they were happy with their current MSP? Yeah, that one's a tough one, man. I mean, the whole, Hey, devil, I know is better than the devil. I know. I don't. Um, I think this, uh, again, it has a lot to do with bringing new ideas to the table for them. A lot of what I found is a lot of IT sales, um, MSP specifically would get pretty lazy with, um, helping their clients think differently. And I, you know, if you, if you pay attention to some of my Facebook live stuff and some of the content that I put out there, I really do believe that, you know, back in my day, Connor, you know, when I was, this was, you know, 15 years ago when I was selling IT services, it was kind of the approach that we were taking, which was proactive outsourced IT support was actually kind of new.

I mean, most up until that point, you know, most IT services were very project oriented. It's like, Hey, you know, buy a block of hours or something like that. And we turned it into, Hey, monthly maintenance, you pay us X amount of dollars a month. We'll maintain your systems so they don't blow up. So you don't have to do projects. Right. So that was kind of new. So it was a new approach, which was, which got a lot of people thinking, right? Now, you know, there's a million solutions out there and, you know, any solutions about a Google search away. So it's not really about the, um, I don't think it's about like all the, like how awesome you guys are, because a lot of things, you know, apples, I mean, maybe there's some differences with the tools you use or your approach or something like that.

I think it's about bringing the new ideas to the table and say, Hey, have you thought about this? And what about that? And here's some different things here. And this is where, this is where I think we can differentiate ourselves. And I'll give you a quick story on this one as it relates to, um, uh, financial, financial advisors and stuff like that. Um, I had a, I had a guy about 15, uh, 10, 12 years ago I've been working with at this point who has been selling me my life insurance. Okay. So a while ago I said, you know what's important life insurance, just in case, whatever, I get in touch with this kid and he's about my age. And so over the years early on in my twenties, you know, he, he belonged to one of the golf courses here in Massachusetts that I didn't have the money for back then.

And he would take me out every single year to, uh, or, you know, Hey John, let's go hit the links. I was, and early on, I was happy to, right. And what we would do is we talk about how much money I was making, you know, then we'd hack around for, you know, whatever, three, four hours. And then he'd ask me for referrals and I'd say no. And, and that happened year over year over year. And then I had my daughter. All right. And when I had my daughter, things changed obviously very drastically. And I was very goal oriented now. And I, you know, I started to look about my, you know, not just my future, but her future and my wife's future as well. But now time became the value to me. Right. And so eventually he called me up again, you know, a couple of years into that.

He said, Hey John, you want to go hit the links this year? And I'm like, you know, why? He's like, I don't know. Touch base. Check in. See how you're doing, man. I'm like, you know, can I ask you, is this pretty much the holiday is going to work? Is it you guys, you and I are going to catch up for the first 15, 20 minutes. I'm going to tell you money I'm making tell you, you know, you're going to tell me how much more life insurance I need to buy. And then we're going to go hack around for about a, you know, three and a half, four hours. And then I'm going to ask for referrals. I'm going to tell you, I don't have any, is that pretty much how the day is going to go? And he's like, well, uh, yeah, I, I guess I was like, let me ask you, are you more important than my, my daughter?

The answer to that one's no. Right. And so, you know, my point to him was like, look, no longer is this golfing thing. And this aligns with challenger sale, by the way, if you guys are paying attention to that challenger sale talks about how the relationship sale is dying. I don't think the relationship sale is dying. I think the relationship sale sale has just changed drastically instead of, you know, going out to dinner, you know, golf and that type of crap. Now it's about adding value. That's how you develop relationships. So after that conversation with him, what he started doing was every year he started sharing with me these things and ideas about what I could be doing with my money and stuff that he couldn't even do.

Okay. Because he, again, all he did was life insurance at the time. Then fast, you know, fast forward a little bit. Now I have a financial advisor that has all my money, right. And my mutual funds, my 401k and all these different things. And, and so, you know, but every year here was okay, let's review every year at the end of the year. How much, you know, what are we doing? And really ultimately all that ended up, all that conversation ended up being was, Hey, um, have we made money or we lost money this year? That's pretty much all it ended up being. And so eventually this kid was adding so much value. And this year was a yearly thing. And, you know, I, again, don't get me wrong. I was getting value out of this relationship, but I was getting more value out of this one.

And so eventually this kid moved into a position to a new company where he could do all the financial service stuff. And I said, you know what? I ended up taking my, my retirement assets from this company and putting it over here because he added value. And he got me to think. And so that's my point to corner here is, is those questions, you know, those things that other MSPs, Hey, we're happy with them. Talk about where they're going in the future. Talk about new ideas, things that you're doing to help bring better ideas and stuff that they could maybe even go back to their existing providers with and say, Hey, can we do this? Because the more you do that, the more people start to look at you differently.

Um, you know, last story here is the same thing with LinkedIn, you know, think about LinkedIn. Their number one competitor is LinkedIn. And all these kids are like, well, how do we get these people to buy? And, you know, these, you know, the upgraded packages and everything like that. And I asked them, I said, look, you know, instead of pushing on them every single time, but you got to buy this, you got to buy this, you got to buy this. Let me ask you, if you looked at my LinkedIn profile here, my LinkedIn website, would you be able to find three or four things that you, I could be doing right now that would improve my profile, my views or whatever it is. And they're like, Oh yeah, absolutely.

All of the, all of the reps of that. I said, cool. Then tell me about those, share those with me, right? Hey, John, I was on your profile the other day. And I noticed if you just did X, Y, and Z, you'd be able to boost your, you know, exposure by this and attract a lot more things or whatever it is. And just share that information with me thoughtfully. And eventually you get me to look at you differently than just a sales rep. So kind of, you know, that'd be a, what I would tell you is, is first of all, get a big pipeline. So you can do that. And then just ask them questions about what they're doing right now to make sure that, you know, they're in a good spot and share new ideas with them that they might not have thought about of what things they could be doing or what strategies they could be putting in place.

And, and again, ask them after that meeting, Hey, it doesn't look like we're a good fit here and be totally cool with that too. By the way, I walk into situations being like, Hey, look, I'm trying to qualify you in as much as I'm trying to qualify you out. Like we don't need good. We don't need bad customers. We don't need bad relationships here. So, so I want to make sure what I'm trying to find out is if we can really move the dial for you, if we can't really move the dial for you, you know, if we can get to that much better than it's not worth making the switch just because of the aggravation. But if we can move the dial, if we can really make that difference, that's where I'm going to talk to you about this.

So let me ask you a few questions here. And if it's pretty apparent that we can make a difference, I'll let you know. If it's not, I'll also let you know. And if it's not, I'm just going to say, Hey, what's the best way to communicate with you moving forward here? What are some of the things I might be able to share with you that you're interested in right now that you maybe could even bring back to your existing provider and see what happens there. And then jot those things down, put them in your CRM and then follow those things on social and share them when you can. All right. Um, I'm going to, there's one more, I know we're a little bit over, but I'll go into this. Uh, cause, uh, so, Hey, uh, Ahmed talked about last time.

He said about understanding the buying process of a customer. Um, that one is, you got to understand, I mean, it's really understanding that the buying process is very fluid these days. Okay. It goes, it starts, it stops. It goes from this person to that person, this person, one of the best, um, things that I've gone through in my training. And this is what I train on is literally it's the whole gives and gets thing, right? The gives are what people ask of you. And then the gets are the things that you want from them. The gives that's their buying process effectively, you know, so map out all the things that clients ask of you. They want information. They want discounts. They want proposals.

They want, you know, there's a procurement process in place there. Uh, they want trials. They want proof of concept. They want, you know, multiple people, you know, all those different things. And then map those out, just brainstorm that and map those out early to late. You know, what comes early on in the sales process, what comes late on in the sales process. Hopefully you've been through the sales process enough with enough of your clients where you can kind of understand all the pieces that are involved in that and literally, so literally just brainstorm them out and then start early late and then see if that marries up to the next time to say, okay, what's happening next one and see if they skip through that process.

Because for instance, references, a lot of people ask for references real early on. That's a sign that they're either kidding. They don't really care. They're just filling your column fodder or they're ready to make a decision and that you're, you're coming in really, really late in the sales process. So, so I would just map that out and do a simple little whiteboard session with your team about what are all the things that your clients ask of you and then prioritize them early to late. And that'll give you a good sense. And then, you know, make sure that you're asking the client along the way, not only for instance, what's the buying processes and who's involved, but also what's the procurement process.

You know, what's, what's the legal process here? So we don't get kicked in the teeth when that happens. And then you start to kind of marry it up with your selling process and kind of see where they are. All right. But, um, but try to map that out. It makes it pretty easy when you, when you actually make it objective. Okay. Anyways, thanks for your questions today. I really appreciate it. I know we're a little bit over time here, but, um, keep asking questions. Keep hitting me up on Facebook, on, um, on Snapchat, John M is in Michael Barrows. Um, you know, I'm also doing some fun stuff, like I said, on, on Facebook live, help spread the word here. And I'm, I'm trying to continue to try to share out as much content as possibly can.

So keep on the lookout here in the near future, though. There's going to be some, uh, some interesting things going on with Jay Barrows that, uh, we're going to have some fun with. So, oh, and tonight, if you want to follow me on Snapchat, I'm going to the, uh, dead mouse concert. So that should be fun. Anyways, make it a great day. Everybody have a great week. All right. And, and again, try to make somebody smile today. Right. Um, whether it's a prospect or somebody in the office or anything like that, try to spend some good vibes out there. There's too much negative shit going on these days. And, uh, it's world, uh, we all could use a little smile. All right. All right, everybody have a great one.

Bye. Thank you.