Ambition, Ego & The Real Cost of Success with Roderick Jefferson

Hey, real quick before we get into the conversation. Look, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while now, you know I don't have sponsors. And it's mainly because I know most people, including myself, skip right through them and I just don't want to annoy my audience with 10 minutes of sponsor spots every single week. However, it also means I don't get paid to do this. So the way I help fund my ability to provide free content and really interesting conversations like the one you're about to hear is through my sales training and coaching services. So if you've gotten value out of some of these conversations on this podcast and you're looking to level up your sales game, do me a favor and go to jbarrows.com and check out the training tab on the top nav bar.

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Now let's get on with the show. The stroke saved my life. The stroke saved friendships and relationships and the stroke saved my marriage because I was so far down the road that I didn't even see how bad I was because it had become the norm, quote unquote. The quality of life kept diminishing and the further I moved up the chain, now I'm thankful and blessed that I got to have those times and do all the things and all that. But no, I wouldn't have changed because I was more focused on what I did than who I was. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen. Monday is where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us.

And you are getting my good friend Roderick Jefferson on this one. He's been on the podcast multiple times. He's one of my best friends. He's also family. You hear us talking about that a lot and he's, you know, we've had him on recently, probably back in October and to talk about his book, Stroke of Success. And a lot of that was about a perspective shift and how it forced him to get out of the hustle culture and reassess a lot of different things that he was doing. This time we got a lot more tactical and because I wanted to talk to him about the reality of this shift. And, you know, for those of us who aren't, you know, who are still in the grind, you know, in our 20s and 30s and 40s, you know, is it realistic to, you know, downshift and have a different perspective on life and, or are there things that we can do to make sure that we don't be, aren't forced to have a different perspective like he was with his stroke?

So this was, you know, he has some great answers on perspective, but reality and some tactical things that he's done. And we also talked about, you know, again, the reality of where we are at different stages of life. And I think that's an important perspective here. So I thought this was just a, again, just a fun conversation with a good friend of mine. And hopefully this will give you some perspective and some tactics that you can use to identify some of the things that we talk about in this podcast about yourself and try to take some the ego out of it and realize that ambition is one thing, but ego is a different one. And that driver needs to be addressed. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

Let's make it happen. All right. Roderick Jefferson, my brother from another mother, my friend. How are you doing, man? How are you doing? Man, I'm great. Anytime that I can hang out with my brother, it's a great day. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And I appreciate you jumping on, man, because we talked not so long ago. I think the last time I was back in October or something like that. So it's been a few months. So new year, new crazy shit going on. You got the book out. It's cracking. It's Amazon bestseller now, right? That it is. Yeah. Killing it. I got my 10 copies right here that I'm about to do a post on to give away to people who are stuck in this and in the hustle culture. That's what we're going to dive into.

So, you know, for context here, for the listeners, you know, if you haven't heard some of my conversation with Roderick, first of all, we go way back early days of Salesforce and just grinding and both just all in, right? Roderick wrote the original book of, what is it, Sales Enablement 3.0? Like, which one was it? 3.0. I happen to have one of these just laying around. So literally. It's a little worn and tattered, but it still works. Literally wrote the book on sales enablement. But the more recent book was Stroke of Success. No, I'm sorry. Yeah, Stroke of Success. Yeah, Stroke of Success. There it is. And it was because, you know, you had a pretty massive stroke, 2% chance of living. Really, really shook you, obviously, as it would have anybody.

And the fact that you're still here is unbelievable. And so we talked last time about perspective, right? And changing kind of our perspective on a lot of things when shit like that happens to you. Yeah. I want to dive a little bit more into this one on the reality. of that perspective, right? Because we were talking right before we got on this show, like where, you know, you hear a lot of people who are super rich, you know, they end up saying, well, you know, money doesn't matter. It's like, fuck you. Money doesn't matter. Like when you were broke ass at 25, 30 years old, trying to feed your whatever or your family, money mattered. And so don't you dare tell me that money doesn't matter now that you don't have it.

And I want to dive into that with you right now, because there's this, oh, you know, hustle culture, you know, we really need to slow down and all that stuff. But, you know, I just turned 50, right? You're up there, right? So I'm about to turn 60 next month. Right. And so, and we've hustled their entire time and let's put us in our position where we are in our careers. And so I want to unpack this a little bit about kind of your perspective on the reality of telling people to slow down a little bit and not have to get to the final point where you got where it was forced on you. Because that's, I don't think it's realistic to say, okay, stop it with the hustle, you know, enjoy your life, especially if you're 30 and you got that drive.

But I also don't want to over index this and get people to the point where shit happens like it did to you. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, what specifically changed for you in your day to day, like knowing hustle, right? Like go, go, go, go, go. What does your calendar look like these days? Yeah. It's an interesting thing to, I want to go back for a second and go back to the future if you can. You said something that made a whole lot of sense to me. I don't expect people in their 20s and 30s to slow down on the hustle culture. It's what you do. It's a matter now of how do you put boundaries around it and also how do you put parameters. And so let me be clear on this one. I call it age and stage, right?

At this age and stage right now, I'm not going to work to kill myself anymore. But at the same time, it's because I still need to feed my family. But equally as important is I need to feed my soul. And so to answer your question, what's changed is, oh, God, a ton of stuff has changed. The first is every day after I do my meditation, do my morning prayer, I come into my office. Like most of us will come into your home office. I've got a whiteboard right there in front of me. And I do this before I look at email. Because if you look at email, everything is firefighting. This is what I'm trying to do is now get to fire prevention. I write up four things on that whiteboard every single day. Three of those things, I'm not going to turn my laptop off until I do those three things, no matter how crazy it gets throughout the day.

And the fourth one is one thing just for me. Sometimes I'll go sit out in the backyard in my bocce ball court, and I'll just watch the hummingbirds put the sun on my face here in California. Some days it's a long walk to just get some fresh air. Sometimes it's barbecue in Baskin Robbins. And I'm keeping it a buck, right? Now, here's the difference. Before, it was kind of like that fourth one was kind of like when you're on a diet and you have cheat days. Yeah, yeah. I don't believe in cheat days anymore. Okay. I don't need cheat days because every day I'm putting something on just for me. Okay. The other thing is I don't feel like it's selfish anymore. Whether you're an entrepreneur and you've got your own company or you're in corporate, they make you feel like you're selfish for doing something that matters for you.

Let's keep in mind they're here to make a profit, not friends, right? So, I put something on there. Like I said, it could be ice cream today. It could be just chili. It could be, you know what? I'm not going to work past 12 o'clock because I'm watching NCAA hoop because it's March Madness. Okay. But there's also another piece. Every single day I put breaks in my day because since the stroke, me changing hats from this conversation to this one doesn't play well. I know I can't do three, four back-to-back meetings anymore because my brain's not built that way. But what I can do is two, take a break, take lunch, two more, take a break. Or if I've got projects going on, I do it. The other thing that has been a game changer, and you and I know about this one because we've talked about it.

I used to blank out Wednesdays for admin work. I blank out Fridays for admin now. So, I get a three-day weekend every – I don't know why it took me that long. I never said I was the smartest, but I know I'm not the dumbest either. So, I block out Fridays. And then at four o'clock every Friday, my two-year-old granddaughter comes over. And it goes back to something else you and I talk about all the time, and that is never forget your why. Why do you do this? You and I are – come from the same club, provide and protect, right? Yep. But there has to be a third piece now, provide, protect, and feed of your soul. I'm almost 60. I'm at a different age and stage than most. Now, if I'm 30, does that mean I'm doing all that?

Probably not. No. God, I hope you don't have grandkids. And you're 26. But I digress. But what I'm doing now is I'm putting self-care into every single day of life because I know more than most. You know because you were there with me. We all say you're not guaranteed tomorrow. I had a day where I didn't have it tomorrow. I don't want to have to get to that point. Now, if you are in your 20s and your 30s, let me talk to you directly. Push, push, push. But make sure that you take some time, whether it's on the weekends, at night. For me, after 7 o'clock, off the phone. Because you've got to let your brain recycle. I know. We all get that dopamine hit from being on social media, and that's kind of why it was created, right?

Of course. But if you're watching the news, especially right now with all the crazy things, right? If you're on your phone and on social media, if you're working throughout the day, when do you ever actually have a chance to recharge your batteries? I'm not saying you're going to get 8, 9, 10 hours of sleep. That's unrealistic. Your body's not built like that, by the way. But what you can do is make sure that you take some time, whether it's you hit meditation. For me, laugh if you want to. I go get my mani-pedis. Yes, I do. And I go get my massages consistently. Because I know for that hour or that 90 minutes, and I've got the same person she knows, I didn't come here for conversation. I came to relax.

So she doesn't talk to me. She does what she does back there, and she gets it going. And after that, now I'm back to the real world. I think that's realistic. Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jbarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2 if you've already gone through my training before. You can also sign up for my newsletter on jbarrows.com, where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there, some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across, and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do.

So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review, or follow me on the newsletter, it would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. And I think that's the thing. It's like, you know, the whole work hard, play hard, right? I mean, I've unfortunately or fortunately, whatever way you want to look at that, I've lived my life by that. Like, Kim and I still party pretty hard, right? It's okay. Go hard while you can, bro. Well, that's the thing. At some point, your liver ain't gonna like it. Well, no, man. Yeah. Remember I'm at it. No, I'm not sure I felt that bad now. No, I stopped drinking. Yeah, but it's that, it's, you do have to, you know, kind of have that balance.

But that's the thing with me. It's like, and that's the part that really, I think I struggle with giving advice around, which is, you know, the whole work-life balance piece. Because I've stopped believing in that a long time ago, because my perspective on that is when you say you're looking for a work-life balance, that means you work and then you live. And to me, that's pretty depressing because, you know, we sleep about a third of our lives. We work at least a third of our lives. That means you're really, with that mentality, you really only live in about a third of your life. And that to me is a little sad. So, you know, that's why I always say you got to love what you do because then it's not work-life.

You know, it's like you're just living, right? Work-life balance is unrealistic. But the problem is, is that you and I have found, I think, a track and a profession and what we do that we are passionate about, that we do love. And so we work until 7, 8, 9, 10 o'clock at night, sometimes 11 o'clock at night. It ain't feeling like work because I like doing it, right? Yeah. I think of that, you know, 28, 25, 26, 27-year-old kid who's just kind of working at a company that is just getting a paycheck so that they can pay their rent. You know, maybe somebody's got a couple of kids that they're trying to support, whatever, at an early age. And I'm trying to figure out how to not be the, hey, money doesn't matter type of person to that person to say, you know, and is there a, is there a, is that from your perspective, have you seen a necessity, if you will, like literally you, it's almost like severance.

You know, the show severance where they literally rip their brain out for the time that they're at work so they don't even think about it. And then when they come in there, is that, I mean, that's the reality for most people. How do you, how do you combat that? And, and because that's a different kind of stress. It is. It is. And look, we've both been there coming up, right? We had young kids, we had bills to pay, we had debt. And that's where I say, and I go back to age and stage. There's a time where you're just going to have to do that because that's just part of being a grownup, right? But if you're still doing it at 50, 60, that means you didn't prepare when you were 20, 30. Right. It may not be that you're putting away a grand a week.

Sure. Put away what you can. And if there's nothing you can, know that this is temporary. Yeah. There are parts and there are times in life where you've got to work to live and there's times where you've got to live to work. Yep. Right. And it really comes down to what am I doing while I'm in that hustle culture, while I'm in that live to work, right? Or work to live, wherever you are. At some point you go, I've got to start building for the other one. Yeah. That's the thing. Right now. It's having that bifocal, right? I think that's the problem that so many people is like they wake up one day and they're 50 and they realize, holy shit, I haven't, you know, I've basically worked my whole life and I haven't even thought about it otherwise.

Right. It's kind of like, you know, I always give Kim credit because, you know, for me, I probably wouldn't go on vacation, like up until recently, I probably wouldn't take vacation because I'm just like, I'm just like, go, go, go, go, go, go. And Kim's like, no, we got it. We got to take a vacation. I'm like, oh yeah, shit. Right. If she wasn't forcing the vacation stuff, I could go two, three, four years without taking a vacation and then burn the shit out. Right. So I think there is that need to slow down. And, but to your point, I think stages, like you look at, I look at your twenties, I'm like, in your twenties, try everything, fail at everything. Cause you got better than you're expected to do dumb shit.

Exactly. But, and work your ass off. Right. And your hump. Right. Work, work, play hard type of thing. But then your thirties, you kind of pick a lane, hopefully where you're like, okay, I'm pretty good. You got your 10,000 hours in a little bit. That's where you like, and in your forties, if you haven't really picked a lane in your forties, you're kind of fucked because at that point, you need to kind of reevaluate things at that point. Cause you know, if you, if you haven't picked your head up by that point and realize like, Hey, I'm on a track to something, whatever it is. If you don't know what you want to be when you grow up at 40, newsflash, it's a little late. Or at least know what you're good at.

You know what I mean? I think that's, that's a piece of it. Like, I don't know whether I even know what I want to be when I grow up type of thing, but, but I know what I'm, I know what I'm good at and I know what I love doing too. Yeah. And so you, you hit something else and, and the whiteboard I was talking about earlier has three different lanes to it. And this is how I figured out what my service offerings were going to be for my consulting company. Okay. One lane is what am I really good at? Yep. The middle lane is what do I love doing? And then between those two, the third column is what will I get paid well for? Yeah. Isn't that Ikigai or whatever it is? Yeah, Ikigai. Yeah, it's a very, very similar mentality.

And it's real because when I did that and when you stand back and look at it, it's so obvious. Things just start sliding into that, that third lane, right? But go into it with some flexibility because to your point, who you are is not who you're going to be at 30 and 40. No. But as long as it's progressive, right? It's like the kid. I, I started out, I was a computer science major. Then I changed it to physical therapy and I finished at radio and television broadcast because from the person I was as a freshman and they had nothing to do with each other. I just knew that Fortran and COBOL was not my thing. Right? But by the time I was a junior, I went, wait a minute. It found me. And I always tell my mentees and I told my kids and everyone else that I mentor, you're going to have 10 to 12 jobs in your life.

Your career is going to find you. And it's probably not going to look like what you think it's going to be. No. And it's even more so right now. We were talking about this the other day. If I'm a parent and I'm sending a kid off for four years on one track, that kid's screwed because their job and their passion and their career may not even exist yet. But if you're getting baby steps along your way towards that and you're doing things outside of the class or outside of being an entrepreneur and that's the other thing. Stay up on tech. But from the perspective of IQ plus EQ plus AI, right? Use what you see going on, but then always have that mind in the back of your head. That question in the back of your head, how can I automate this?

How can I make this easier? Because at the end of the day, while technology is wonderful, the best thing in my mind about AI, it buys back time for me. Yep. It gives me time. Unless you're hooking and you're in there constantly playing. This is what my problem is, is, you know, I got to keep reminding myself just because I can doesn't mean I should, right? Because now what's happened to me is like, I had all these like, oh man, I can do this so much more efficiently. I can do this. What else could I do? What else could I do? What else could I do? And now I'm like, it's never enough. Yeah, now I'm busier than I have been because I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep. I'm like, oh shit, now I'm doing too much, right?

So I think there's that balance. And I, I think that- But wait, do you remember, John, the word I said earlier? Parameters. Yeah. Because too much of anything is a bad thing. Yes, I agree. I don't want my favorite dessert every day. I don't, I love a good steak or some good ribs. I don't want that every day. We have to approach AI the same way. And put parameters around it. Because it's very easy to get into rabbit holes and you can be in there forever. So what, what parameters are you putting on these days, right? Because, because again, it's addictive. It's just like, it's just like social media. It's just like all this stuff. It's like, I go down rabbit holes with AI quite a bit. So how are you controlling kind of your usage of it versus getting sucked into it?

Yeah. Well, again, something else you and I were talking about recently. I have now created enough content where I could go two years without creating podcasts. I don't need carousels. I don't need graphics. The issue is that's my safe space. That's right. That's my creative space. I go to Canva and I just go crazy, right? So what I've said is I put it into two baskets. Is this fun and marketing or is this biz dev? And where I'm at right now, if it's not biz dev, then I don't have time to put time to do it. There you go. Okay. And I have other folks in my circle and we have accountability partners and we talk weekly. And it's not like, well, what percentage of your week? But it was, would you get done for biz dev this week versus going out and creating blogs or putting marketing and those kinds of things out?

Having accountability partner really helps. That's one. That's something, unfortunately, I've avoided my life. I like accountability to me is I don't like it. I don't like it. It's too much where you've given into the machine. I know you, John. No, I know. I know. Trust me. It's, it's, it's, I know it's my biggest weakness is, is holding myself accountable and holding others accountable. That's why I'm not a good manager. And so, you know, that, that's been an uncomfortable one for me to try to deal with. That's one. The other thing that I've started doing is I could be just like all of us. We could be on trying new tools all the time. Yeah. One tool a month, not a week, not a day. One tool a month.

Can I dabble? And if I can't figure out how to take that thing and make it biz dev, or if I realize that it's a cool tool, but it's really not doing more than what I'm doing right now. Okay. Let it go. Don't hold on to it. It's like when, when we used to be managers, fire early. Yeah. Right. That's what I do with AI. Fire early. Are you sure? I mean, I like Megan. So Megan, my COO, right? She like the theme this year, I told her, I go, Megan, I need you to ask me every time I come up with an idea or something. I need you to just say, John, are you sure? Like, does it really need to do this? Like, does it align with what we're trying to accomplish here from a goal standpoint? Like that. And cause I need that.

I, so she's my, I guess she's my accountability, right? She's your accountability part. That's exactly. Cause like, then you won't want it, you know, but I'll like every meeting that we have every Monday. I'll be like, okay, I'm working on this, that, and she'll just stop me and be like, you sure? Like, do you, do we need to be doing that? It sounds like a good idea, but is that going to drive revenue? Is that going to help us do this? And it's like, no, it's not. Okay. Nevermind. I love that. Is it a cool tool or is it going to drive? Yeah. And sometimes it's okay to go play with the cool tool. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I agree. I agree with that. So we talked the last time about ego addiction.

Okay. What's the difference from your perspective between ambition and ego addiction? Oh, great question. Ambition is how am I going to get bigger, faster, stronger, a better leader, more efficient, more effective so that I can help others, whether it be companies or individual ego. How can I learn a new tool so I can go show everybody that I am a pioneer or I am the smartest person in that room, big difference. One is about me. The other is about giving. And I don't know if you've seen, but my new hashtag is give to give. And it's my reminder, give to give, because we're both at a point now where let's be honest, realistically, we can probably help a lot more people that can help us right now.

Oh, yeah. As mentors, et cetera, right? Especially in our industry. Absolutely. In our industries. Absolutely. Yeah. So we're not brand building. No. Either of us. No. We're not trying to get exposure because we don't need that. No. We're not trying to be noticed and seen or become a thought leader. No. So it's very easy now. Again, go back to age and stage. Right. This stage of life is about two things for me. It's about helping others to be bigger, faster, stronger, better. And it's about building legacy based on empathy. Not my position anymore. So building legacy based on empathy. Let's talk to me about that. Okay. So my legacy, and I was talking to Debra the other day, and I said, when I do die, whenever that is, two weeks, two months, 2,800 years, whenever it is.

So here's the single rule. First of all, no funeral. Let's make a celebration. Right. Yeah, exactly. So past that, the only rule was nobody can talk about my books, keynotes. Nobody can talk about enablement. Nobody can talk about anything except for one thing. I want people to tell stories on how they felt because we interacted. So now I'm approaching life the way that I did, and I learned this from my editor on my first book. She said, I want you to write with your ego, and then we're going to edit with your heart. And I was like, ooh, ooh, that is fire. I like that. Because the ego is going to say, I'm going to give you everything that I've known for the last 800 years. That heart says, what am I giving you that's going to make you even better than I was?

Yeah, and that's, you know, it's funny you say that because the, so Kim turned 50, right? And we kind of agreed not to do anything big for each other. And, but I'm not, you know, I'm not going to not get a present for a 50th birthday, right? So what I did was- Because if you did that, you'd hear about that forever. Yeah, of course. So what I did was I reached out to every one of her friends from high school, college, all the ones I knew, family, and everybody. And I said, just write down, like physically write down on a notepad, your favorite story of Kim. Like pick one, I don't care. Because she's just full of stories. Like she always makes an impression on people's lives, right? And it's usually a fun one.

It's usually, you know, it's got some lunacy to it. And I had everybody write, you know, a paragraph or a story. And then I had them take a picture of it. And then I put it into a book. And it's 50 years of stories for her. And, you know, when my dad passed, you know, my, I wish my family, my, I wish his side of the family was, was open to it. Because all I wanted to hear was stories. Yeah. All I wanted to hear was stories. I'm like, can we just sit around and instead of just crying and, oh, like, I'm like, could y'all just tell me some stories that I haven't heard before? You know what I mean? Of him growing up, of something I don't know about him. Just let's, let's let something funny. Like I'd much rather remember the stories and, and, and that happiness than, then be, you know, I'm going to be sad.

No question about it. But I don't want to be sitting around y'all and be sad about this. And the same thing on my end, like to your point, like I don't have a funeral for me, right? Like go out and have a party, take my favorite playlist, put it on and just start telling funny ass stories. Right. Smoke some weed, have a good time. You know what I mean? And, and, and let's chill because to your point, you know, like, and you, we've all heard it, right? Like nobody remembers facts and figures. They may, they remember how you made them feel. How you made them feel. Absolutely. And I think that's, so that's your, that's your lead with empathy, right? That's your, that's that piece of it, which I love, man.

So, um, if you remove ego though, cause ego drives a lot. Absolutely. A lot of these kind of, I've always been a little bit bums that, you know, I think we've had this conversation before where it's like, you got these super quote unquote successful people. And I put success in quotes, they all seem to be assholes. You know what I mean? Like they just seem to be fucking assholes. And don't get me wrong. There's plenty of people like Richard Branson kind of gives me a little bit of hope. You know what I mean? Benioff before his dumb ass talking about, you know, ice, you know, now I think he's a douche. Um, but, uh, there were some, right. But do you lose your edge when you lose the ego or, or do you gain it?

Normally I would answer your question. I want to answer that question with a question to you and pose it back to you, brother. Yeah. What's your definition of success? There you go. Right. That's why I said, put quotes in marks. Yeah. So do you lose the edge if you do at what cost? Cause there's a cost for everything. If you're going to lose that ego, what are you going to lose? And I would venture to say that from the people that I know that are ultra rich, millionaires, billionaires, the small percentage of them that are really good people were really good people when they were broke. Money didn't really change them. Money didn't really change them. It changed the experience and changed their quality of life, but it did not fundamentally change.

Change. And that's why it's such a small percentage. What are the signs from your perspective of somebody who has crossed that line from like drive and ambition to ego? Like, is it, is it, is it, is it that self-centered, like I'm doing this for me? Like it, but in, is there signs that somebody like me, right? Cause I, I, I think I'm doing this for, you know, helping other people and I've always had this give, give mentality of like, Hey, whatever, but doesn't hurt that. I got 450,000 followers that I, that I get kudos all the time that people say, Hey John, we love what you're doing. You know what I mean? Like there's a massive ego piece to this. And we had talked last time about, you know, I remember, you know, we, this was in the last conversation, right?

When, when my, um, my business coach was sitting down and after my dad passed, I was going through the values thing. And I put family on the list and I was like, of course, family is top. And he's like, isn't it always? And he's like, Nope. You know, if you want family, you got to live it. You got to ask yourself. And it, and that's when it hit me like a brick that I was like, man, I'd have not been doing this for my family. You know, I've been doing this cause I'm really good at this shit and there's something about it. So what are the warning signs? Cause I, that was a wake up call for me. That was like a smack in the face, but I, it took, you know, I was 45 years old. I took a business coach to put that mirror up on me in that process to go through for me to go, fuck man.

Like I was in stage again, John, but how, how is that ego? Like how, how, what are the warning signs? Cause I, I, to me, I convinced myself that I was doing it for, not for me, you know, for, for other people. And I was helping and all that, you know, the 10% of the people, the life bulb goes off. I changed their life, you know, that type of shit. Like, Oh, look at, you know, look at how great I'm doing for other people. Like, like, but it was pretty egocentric if I really would appeal back that onion. So what are some of the warning signs that, that you are doing this for ego purposes, not driving ambition? Um, I got three things. One, if your why doesn't agree with you, that you're doing it for your why, right?

And let me be clear about that. For me, my why was almost my family. But when I was on corporate jets and helicopters and I'm flying around and I'm having lunch with President Obama, that wasn't for my family. It sounded good, right? And I had convinced myself because they were living a great life. So my question is, again, are you living to work? Are you working to live? Because ego will have you work nonstop and not worry about anybody else around you, your family, your friends, your circle, right? The second thing is, when you introduce yourself, does it include your company and your title in your intro? Hi, I'm so and so. I'm the XXX of this company. If so, that's ego. Yeah. When I introduce now.

Hi, I'm Rod. I'm not even Roderick. Roderick is, is, is the formal me. I'm just Rod now, right? I'm not RJ. None of that nonsense. No title. You won't know what I do unless you ask me. That's the other piece. You'll never know what I do. If you see me out and about, you know, right? In our circles, I think people kind of know us. But new people I meet, I sit on a plane next to somebody. First thing they're going to learn about me is, I'm a grandpa. It has nothing to do with work at all. Right? And then the third thing, and this is the big one. You may love yourself, but do you like yourself? Ego will have you love yourself. I love myself a little too much. Right? But I passed mirrors and I couldn't look at a mirror because I didn't like myself.

If you can say you love and you like yourself, you're in the right direction. And above all, here's an umbrella. No fluff, no BS. You got to be honest with yourself. Yeah. I think that's really hard for a lot of people, though. Absolutely it is. You know, being honest, like, you know, we put in a lot of barriers to be honest with ourselves. I created a whole character so I didn't have to be honest. RJ was a character, remember? Yep. So what, let me ask you this. Let me flip it around. What did it cost you? What did your definition of success early, before the stroke and when you were in the hustle, what did it cost you that you can't get back? And I had teams later in life when I became VPS and I had teams that couldn't stand me.

I had never had that earlier in my career. My calling card was always that I knew everybody on the team. I knew their kids. I knew their birthdays. All of that. I send texts for birthdays, all that stuff. I stopped doing that later because I became what I thought an executive was supposed to be. So it cost me relationship. It also cost me respect because I was doing things sometimes that I knew was the wrong thing to do. But ego was like, yeah, and? And now in hindsight, I look back and it's almost like you got to go through a 12-step program, you know, for narcotics or for alcohol. You have to make those amends to people. And you got to be prepared for a lot of doors to be closed in your face.

But because you've changed, that doesn't change the memories that you had and the way you made people feel at that time. And just because you're on a different page and you're ready to forgive, they may not be. And so you've got to expect that to happen. So if you could run it back. Would you trade anything for the success up until the stroke, right? So where you were, if you could kind of go back and change, what would those things be? And understanding that the hustle and the grind got you to the level that you wanted to be and the brand and all the stuff that we just talked about, we don't have to worry about anymore. What would you trade for that success? Again, let's go back to the future.

My goal in corporate was always to be a director. I didn't even know what it meant. I just knew it was a different level of respect and decent money. I would have stopped at senior director. I would have never become a VP. I would have never become an SVP. Really? And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Because I was the best version of me at senior director. After that, I was a character of who I thought I was supposed to be. And I didn't work nearly as hard at senior director as I did at VP or SVP because it came with the territory. Yeah, there was a lot of cool perks. But I started missing football games, graduations, dance recital. And then I got to a point where I was like, everybody around me is doing it.

So it's just what, it just comes with the territory. No, it isn't. That's a choice. It is. Because at that point, at that level, you literally have control of your travel schedule. Yeah. I went when I knew that I should be home. Yeah. Because I wanted the experience or the photo op or being seen and being heard. All things that, that and seven bucks will get you a latte. None of that really mattered. I talked to my kids. My kids are older, as you know. And I asked them, did you have a good life growing up? Did I, you know, provide a good life? And they said, you provided a great life, Dad. But we could have lived without the vacations, the cars, the clothes, the, you know, celebrities and all that around us.

If you would have been home more. That's hard to hear. That is a titanium dart right in the center of your heart to hear your kids say, what we missed out on was our parents being at this. Our friend's parents were there. One of my daughter's friends literally thought that I worked in the CIA because kids are young. She couldn't tell her friend what I did because she didn't understand it, right? She's like, your dad flies in and then he's gone and he's on all these jets and he knows all these celebrities. The dad's in the CIA. And she was like, and Jeff went, I don't think so. For your child to have to wonder what you do. And that's what you're doing to provide for them. My kids were in deep into their 20s before they could explain to any of their friends what I actually did.

So at the end of the day, how important was it really? It really wasn't. No. So do you think, do you think you would have changed if you didn't have the stroke? No. No. I'm on it. The stroke saved my life. The stroke saved friendships and relationships. And the stroke saved my marriage. Because I was so far down the road that I didn't even see how bad I was because it had become the norm, quote unquote. I didn't have a reason to change. We're living a great life, living in the right neighborhood, driving great cars, having vacations. But the quality of life kept diminishing. And the further I moved up the chain, I'm thankful and blessed that I got to have those times. Right? And do all the things and all that.

But no, I wouldn't have changed because I was more focused on what I did than who I was during that entire period. And that's going back to your point of people introducing themselves as their title, as the company they work for. It's like, no, no, no. That's why most other countries, when you go to an event, like, I mean, here in the States, the first thing, you want to say, oh, what do you do? First thing, what do you do? Like, and that is, like, how people judge, how people evaluate. And it's easy, obviously. It's the easy thing to say. But almost every other country, like, when you go and you go to an event and you meet people, that is one of the last things they ask. That's why I love Europe so much.

Because they are focused on connecting. America is connected on. We're focused on connections. Yeah. And that, and I just realized, you know, we just went. So we went to Barcelona, Amsterdam, Switzerland, and what's the other, Nice, and Monaco. And, you know, all through Europe, looking for schools for Charlotte. And it's just, the lifestyle is just so much different with their perspective on, I mean, my uncle lives in Switzerland. And, man, you wake up every morning. And I don't know if you saw my newsletter this week. Oh, yeah. Like, that image, like, that's what he wakes up to every fucking day. But that's his definition of success. Oh, I'm like, man. Yeah. And I think that is what I'm starting to come to the realization of, of, like, you know, there's a certain point where enough is enough, right?

And as far as money and those type of things, and, and, and, and, and again, I think this comes with age and perspective and, and all that stuff. And so I feel blessed to be at this age with where I'm at right now. And I don't want to come across as money doesn't matter, you know, don't work as hard, like, to a 25-year-old kid, because I think that you should, right? But you should, you know. That's the time to do it. You know what I've learned now, lately, in conversations like this, because I think a lot of us are having these conversations in our personal circles. And something came out of my mouth, and I don't even know where it came from, but it hit me after it came out of my head. So clearly it was something that was real.

And I said, I don't want more. I want better. I want better friendships. I want better relationships. I want better time on the couch. I'm more, I want better time with my family, better vacation. I could care less about more. My uncle, my uncle used to say, nephew, have you ever seen a hearse with a U-Haul behind it? See, we all laugh when you hear it, right? Yeah. But it's the reality that all this stuff that we're amassing, and we know you can't take it. And none of it really matters at the end of the day. Let's go back to what we said earlier. It's about how you made people feel. Because the one thing you don't own, as much as people would like to think they do as influencers and all of that on social media, you don't own your own brand anymore.

Brand is what happens when everybody is watching, but nobody's talking to you about it. That's brand. It's what people say when you walk out to our room, right? Absolutely. Let's finish up on this, because I've been exploring this one for a while, and I don't know what the right answer to this is. You brought up why, knowing your why and living your why and making sure that's the line. Again, that's one of those, I think, core values. I've been talking to Charlotte about core values since she was six, because I think values are something that you can start to hone in on pretty damn early, or you should early in your life. And by the way, you and Kim have done a fantastic job with my niece. Thanks, bro.

Yeah, she's everything. So she's my why, ultimately. Absolutely. But I do think values are early, or frequent. Why is an interesting one? Because I think you need perspective to understand why. So if we go back to the buckets of 20s, 30s, and 40s. 20s, I don't think it's appropriate to think of your why, because you haven't experienced enough shit. Unless you have a child early, you don't have a why. You are the why in your 20s. And so like your 30s, maybe, because you maybe have a kid and that type of stuff. 40s, you have perspective, because you've got... So when do you think it's, whether it doesn't have to be an age, but when should somebody say, you know what, I need to sit down and go through this why exercise?

Is there a point where it's too early, too late? Like, where do you see that fitting in? I think it's mid to late 30s. Mid to late 30s. I really do. It's that 36 to 40 age, because that's where you've gotten to a point where you're comfortable with yourself. You, unless you're a psychopath, you can be honest with yourself. Yeah. You know what your strengths and your shortcomings are. You've been to a couple of picnics and rodeos. And you know what you don't like, which is equally as important as what you do like. Yep. And then that's when you start putting it into execution in that, that latter part of your 30s going into your early 40s. Because if you're doing, you're doing that exercise at 50-ish, a little late.

A little late. Unless you hit the lottery, that's different. That's different. But again, going back to it, like, hopefully hitting the lottery won't change who you are. It shouldn't change you, in all seriousness. Right. Might change your zip code, but it shouldn't change who you are. I'd probably do a couple of really dumb things with the first couple mil. But after that, then it's going to settle down and go, wait a minute. I've got this, this, this, and this. I've got to stack this up for the kids, for the grand, all that. And that's the other thing. If you don't blow that first couple mil, you'll be blowing it faster than you know for the rest of your life. No, trust me. Like I always said, I'm going to throw a banger-ass party.

Everybody's going to know. Oh, yes. Banger-ass party. And then after that, I'm going to take care of everybody around me who needs to be taken care of. And then after that, I'm going to, you won't see me again, so. Mine is, I may not tell anybody that I won the lotto. But there'll be signs. There will be signs. There will definitely be signs. Yes. Awesome, man. Well, look, I always love these conversations. And thanks for coming on, man. Because I just, I think I always, you know, I always look for perspective in myself, right? But I need perspective from others. And you've been there. You've been doing a little bit longer than me. And, you know, kind of been in the game. And so me learning from you and watching your journey and has been inspiring across the board with what you've dealt with and how you've dealt with it even before your stroke.

You know what I mean? Black man in the SaaS world, 0.1% of fucking, you know, chief diversity shit where, you know, logos and stuff like that don't matter. So watching you fight like you have with the integrity that you've had along the way has been inspiring. And then, you know, the 2% shit, man, I can't even wrap my head around that. So I feel blessed to have you in my life. I feel blessed to call you a friend and a brother. And I appreciate everything about you, man. And you know what? It may feel to the listeners like it's a love fest. It is. And it is. Because I know JB and I know John. And John is my brother. And I will tell this. All those things that you just said that I've gone through, you've been side by side with me.

At the mountain highs, peak, at the lowest of valleys, you've been there. And through our relationship, I have changed my definition of what friend and family mean. And I mean chosen family. We could have worked together forever. We could have made money for each other forever. But there was something that made us click. And from that, I can say what I'm about to say now. I would not be the man, the father, the husband, the grandpa, et cetera, that I am without John Barrows. You are not just a friend. You are. When I call you my brother, I mean that. And all right, I'll put a little bit out there, but not too much. I don't go to Boston without going to your house. Of course not. I don't see my niece without coming to see you.

Whether you're scooping me up from the airport or I'm taking an Uber out to you, I'm not going to be in your area code or zip code without seeing you. Because I'd have to deal with Charlie and Kim. I know that already. Yep. Yep. But in all seriousness, I'm coming out there in May, and I'm counting down time to get out there so that we can get together, sit down, break bread, hang out, and you know what? Just be something that really resonates with me, family. Because everybody on your team ain't on your squad. Yeah, that's true. That is 100% true. And unfortunately, I have learned that lesson a little bit too hard over the past few years. Haven't we both? Yeah. And so, awesome, man. Well, look, I can't wait for you to come out here so we can hang out and chill out and just sit in the backyard.

Hopefully the weather's nice. And I can't wait to see what else you can do here moving forward here. And likewise, man. Keep doing what you're doing the way you're doing it because the world needs more of it, especially right now. Yeah, both of us, man. So, thanks, brother. Love you. Love you, too. And everybody, like you hear me always say at the end of this, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, make somebody smile and you know you had a good day. And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So, thank you all very much and I will see you on the other side. Hey, thanks again for listening to the show and for all your support throughout the years.

This is one last reminder to check out my training programs at jbarrows.com or leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2 if you've already gone through my training or sign up for my newsletter. Any of those will help ensure I can continue to bring you free content and great conversations like the ones you just heard without having to annoy you with sponsors. Again, let's make it happen in 2026 together.