Microsoft VP Exposes the Truth About Scaling Teams with Jason Wild

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Now let's get on with the show. Don't worry about AI taking your job. Worry about a clueless boss laying you off because he or she thinks that AI can do your job. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. So this week I got to sit down with Jason Wilde. Now Jason is a partner at Paradox Strategies, former global VP of Microsoft during the OpenAI partnership announcement. And before that, he built and scaled Ignite at Salesforce from about 10 people to 250 across 16 countries. He's also the co-author of a new book with Harvard Business School professor Linda Hill called Genius at Scale, How Great Leaders Drive Innovation, published by Harvard Business Review Press.

Now here's the thing that grabbed me right out of the gate. Jason was a child actor growing up in Chicago. He co-starred in movies with Mr. T, I pity the fool, Jane Fonda, Chris Christopherson. And by 15 years old, he had been professionally rejected over 300 times, even losing one of his screen tests of River Phoenix. And what he took from that experience, the thick skin, the appreciation for storytelling, the understanding that the best actors don't come across as actors, just like the best salespeople don't sound like they're selling. That thread ran through this entire conversation. We got into the culture of innovation at IBM versus Salesforce. And this concept he calls the ABCs of innovation, the architect who builds the culture, the bridger who is the unsung hero making partnerships work across boundaries, and the catalyst who ignites the movements.

And what really fired me up was his take on AI. He said, stop calling it a tool because calling it a tool limits it before it even starts. He talked about how the Western world has this really pessimistic, zero-sum view of AI taking our jobs. But if you go to India or South America, they see it as the industrial revolution finally arriving for everybody. He even told this story about a farmer in rural India who can't read or write and used AI voice to apply for a government program. And people in the room were literally crying because they'd been waiting their whole lives for that moment. I think you're going to get a lot out of this one. Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen.

Jason Wild, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How are you doing today? Doing wonderful, John. Thanks for having me. How are you? Doing all right, man. A little hot in New York, you were talking about earlier. It's like all of a sudden it turned 70, 70. I'm in Boston. So yesterday it was freezing and then all of a sudden it turned to be 75 degrees outside, which is spring in New England, right? Or spring in the Northeast. We'll take what we can get. I know I grew up in Chicago and we would go out in T-shirts if it was above 40. It's that one day in either March or April where all of a sudden it hits 50 or 60 degrees and everybody's like, it's spring break and everybody takes off.

And then everybody gets sick because it goes back down to freezing after a few days. So I love Mark Twain and he's got so many great quotes. One of them about Chicago was there's two seasons in Chicago, winter and 4th of July. And I think it took me into my 20s to fully appreciate that quote of, yeah, when it's Siberia, it's time to enjoy it. Yeah, exactly. So awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to this conversation because I think it's a timely one specifically on, you know, the innovation track and corporations. And I'll tell you right now, you're catching me at a very interesting time because I just made the switch. And I know you were there for the Microsoft OpenAI merger and partnership.

Or not merger, but partnership. But, you know, I switched from OpenAI and I was all in on ChatTPT for a while because it blew my mind a couple of years back when I saw it. But then I made the switch to Claude and this weekend I spent working with co-work. And it blew my mind, like what it can do. And I am excited for myself because I'm a solopreneur. I mean, I have one person on my team, Megan and I. I've built a brand for the past 40 years or 30 years. You know, I've got a lot of assets and content and I can be nimble. The problem is, is I don't think I'm ever going to hire another person ever again in my life. I'm never going to hire another agency ever again in my life based on what I just saw I can do.

And so the challenge right now that we have is the innovation is moving so fast that these organizations are tripping over themselves. And I think your framework for innovation and how to cultivate it within is critical right now if companies have a chance at surviving, quite frankly, because I think white collar workers are in a lot of trouble. So with that as the topic, let's back up. I always like to kind of get some perspective here on where you're coming from. And one of the things I noticed that you're, are you originally from Switzerland? Or is that where you just went to school? Like, because there was some background, but I couldn't figure out anything before that. So is that where you grew up?

No, no. I'm, I'm a, I'm a Chicagoan born and raised in Chicago. And I've been blessed because I've had different roles that have taken me around the world. So I've led projects, workshops on the ground in 40 countries, including Switzerland. At one point I did work with a company called Agon Zender, which is focused on executive search, more placement, and they're headquartered in Switzerland. Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jaybarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2 if you've already gone through my training before.

You can also sign up for my newsletter on jaybarrows.com, where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there, some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across, and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do. So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review, or follow me on the newsletter, it would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. How'd you get there, right? So like what was your degree in business administration? Actually, back up even further than that. Where'd you get your influences?

Parents, grow up, Chicago, kind of where'd you get that bug of business? And then major, and then that first job dove right into high-level executive search with high-level executives, which was a bunch of got you some really cool experience here. So walk me through that path right there. Yeah, for sure. So the story actually starts, I was a child actor, and it was not my idea to be a child actor. I had the classic stage mom. My brother and I were in local theater, eventually commercials, movies. So by the time I was 14 years old, John, I had co-starred in movies with Mr. T, Jane Fonda. No way. Chris Christopherson. Yeah, some of the 70s and 80s A-list. And at the same time, I think probably by the time I was 15 years old, I had been rejected professionally, not counting my school rejection, at least three or a few times.

Oh my God. So I'm not sure I would put my own kids through something like that, but I developed a really thick skin, which years later would come in very handy in the world of business and corporate life. And so not to take up too much time, but my mom, her dream was to be an actress. She actually was cast to be in the first generation of The Mouse to Tears. With the men from the cello. Yes, my grandparents, her parents had survived the Depression. And so when they learned that, yeah, congratulations, you got the job. But what's the catch? You have to move to L.A. My grandfather, unfortunately, crushed that little girl's dreams. Oh, bummer. So when you're young, you know, you wait, you keep receipts, you have kids, and then, you know, you take those kids on that dream.

And I'm glad we did it because, you know, I'll bounce around a little bit. But, you know, once I got into my 40s and I had been leading global teams and I got over my own imposter syndrome that I think we all have, you know, in different ways. You know, I would have people come up to me much younger and say, hey, Jason, I want to do what you do. What did you do? And for the first part of my career, I just would never talk about that because I felt like I failed. It was irrelevant. It was another lifetime, a different career. But I always felt that, you know, also I was kind of different than your typical business person in my own way. Right. And so I started to embrace that and, you know, realize when you think about it, the best actors don't come across as actors.

Best salespeople don't sound like they're selling. Best chief technology officers don't really focus on technology. So there's a really interesting yin-yang there. There's also, you know, I appreciated the power of great storytelling. I think it's one of the things that we hear a lot in the business world and get good at storytelling. And I think at a very early age, I appreciated that where, you know, you fast forward and you're at some conference and somebody's up on stage and they're talking about a topic and literally it was like putting you to sleep. And somebody else talking about like the same thing, right, gets the hair on the back of your neck to stand up. And, you know, sure, there's an art to that, but there's also a science if you really want to get good at captivating an audience and understanding what might move them.

And, you know, saying one thing in a different tone or semantics to one group, but you may be saying the same thing in a very different way to another group. So I think I was blessed at an early age to really appreciate the power of communication. And so did that for a while. We moved out to L.A. for a year. So my mom felt like she could check that on the bucket list. I actually lost three or four screen tests to River Phoenix, older brother of Joaquin Phoenix. So stand by me. I did the final screen test with Rob Reiner in his office. Rest in peace on the Stanford lot. Super creative, most disorganized office I've ever seen. So I was in this environment early on. It was also like extreme creativity.

Like one of the memories I remember was we were filming a movie with Jane Fonda. It was a very depressing movie being filmed in Gary, Indiana in the middle of winter at a steel mill. I'm 12 or 13 years old. Costume designer like walks in and says, OK, hey, we've got to get you ready for this scene and wear winter clothes. I'll be back in five minutes. So hairdresser does her job and says, oh, yeah. And everybody gets an army cut. I guess that's that's the time. And the costume dresser comes back in. It's like, what did you just do? Right. It's winter. They have to wear winter hats. You didn't have to touch there. So like 12 years old, I learned the like left hand, not talking to right hand. And the other thing that I learned was, you know, maybe Steven Spielberg gets the Oscar.

But to really create a movie, a movie that moves people and stays with you almost in a timeless way, it literally takes a village of different people to come together. And so, you know, as you fast forward, I, you know, we went back to Chicago. We got very close. I graduated from high school. I actually started working with a law firm, mostly to pay my way through college. And I always loved learning and debate, spent several years with a bunch of lawyers in Chicago and realized it wasn't really for me. I like ideas. I like being in the bleeding edge. So it wasn't any more complicated, you know, John, than the realization that business leads, law follows. So, and I had traveled a little bit.

So my dream job within about five minutes of thought, not exaggerating, was international business machines, IBM. Unfortunately, I had no relevant experience. So I went to get my MBA and came out of MBA. IBM was still not interested in me. So I joined a boutique consulting firm to start to practice and develop the left side of my brain, right, developing a bunch of data, being in a war room, analyzing with a microscope, a thousand different ways to try to come up with some groundbreaking insight, which is a big part of consulting. And that was great. And then had an opportunity to join IBM, thought I'd be there for two years in the middle of like the crisis of 2001, ended up spending, gosh, almost 13 years there.

It was life-changing. Started kind of consulting with regulated utilities in the Chicago office and ended up being asked to lead a global innovation team to basically work with IBM's most strategic clients on super complex, sometimes technical problems, but usually societal business challenges, where it was all about bringing the best of IBM into these conversations. So just amazing geniuses and people that I got to learn from and be around, but also learned a lot in terms of innovation inside of IBM because IBM is arguably the most customer-centric organization I've ever been a part of. Wow, really? They've not always had the right, the best products in terms of what the market wants, but the genuine passion for trying to help clients.

It's in IBM's DNA. And so to start your career there in a place that like demands customer-centricity, I think it's been a big part of a little bit of the success that I had. And so I was recruited by Salesforce. I got to a point at IBM where, you know, I enjoyed what we were doing. It took me around the world to almost 40 countries, you know, working with the mayor of Rio de Janeiro to get ready for the Olympics and World Cup, to, you know, NATO generals on non-battlefield, non-classified supply chain integration to what's the next killer app for Disney. And it was really like a dream job. But I also found that we were accepting like 20, 10% success rates and, you know, the sweat equity, just the time and energy that you pour into these projects to then say, hey, hopefully one out of six, this works.

It just never made sense to me. So I wanted to join an organization that had the same level of ambition, but where the probability of success of going from whiteboard to reality was at least maybe 40 or 50%. That's what led me to Salesforce. I joined Salesforce in 2013 when it had 6,000 employees. It's about the time I started training them, by the way. Yeah, it had 70,000 employees. So just incredible growth. Two years at Microsoft. And in the middle of this, writing a book. A book that took 10 years to write. And so, yeah, now we're having this conversation. So, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. So I want to kind of look at Salesforce is kind of, that's around the time I started training, because I think I trained every single sales rep at Salesforce between 2010 to 2018.

And it was on that rocket ship. So you were in Ignite, right? It was the, that was the, you were there to build Ignite internally? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I joined, there were about 10 people. It was founded by what would become the future CMO of Salesforce. And then, yeah, eventually he gave me the keys and it kind of grew, scaled it to be about 250 people globally. So you were innovating within a company that was innovating, especially at the time. So talk to me, I'm curious about the cultures of innovation between IBM and Salesforce, right? Because Salesforce was, let's go as fast as we possibly can. Let's break as much as we can. No software. You know what I mean? The cloud was relatively new.

Nobody knew it was, whereas IBM is a little bit more of the traditional, right? Like, you know, brick and mortar even at that point and, you know, on-prem stuff. So what was the difference between, I guess, what did you take from both of those? Like what was kind of your big takeaway of the culture that they created at IBM compared to the culture? And what helped kind of build you to the next level based on those learnings? Yeah, no, it's a great question. And, you know, I've thought about it a little bit over the years, but this is going to be, you know, very unfiltered. You know, and I think that there are pros and cons with both of them. I think first with IBM. I think IBM is the only organization in big tech that I've ever worked for or worked with that got as close as humanly possible as you can to delivering on consultative selling at scale.

Really, people are not just giving lip service, but there's the training, there's the support, there's the incentive system and expectation that really you're going to subscribe to the philosophy of what I call the Zen of selling. Focus on really deep, hairy, complex problems, map the solutions to those, and you end up selling more than when you try to sell. So I think IBM. Quick question. How long was IBM's onboarding for those reps? Like from a training standpoint, because that, and the reason I ask this is because I grew up, like my first real job, I mean, it was DeWalt, but that was different. But my first real sales job was, was Xerox. And they had their eight week sales training program.

You went through it. Then you were an apprentice and you learned all the aspects of the business before being put in territory. So it wasn't like your three month, you know, three week ramp or whatever it was. Now go out there and sell. They taught you everything about the business. So by the time I was in territory, I was a, I was a business professional. I wasn't a sales rep, hawking copiers. So talk to me because, because Salesforce, I know what their onboarding was. There was like, okay, here's, you got a seat. Let's go. Right. So what was the IBM approach that cultivated that? Yeah. IBM was a little bit more deliberate. And, you know, with IBM, you have to kind of split it between the product side and the services side.

There's just different philosophies, even though the value proposition, you know, is expected to come together. So on the services side, it's more of a, we're going to put you out there, learn by doing, we're hiring you because of your expertise, regardless of the level. And there are elements of, you know, the IBM way that gets sprinkled in to that, but they really want you out there with clients as quickly as possible on the services side. And the product side, to your point, I think it's a part of the legacy of IBM that I wish many more large American companies. You know, I mentioned I have kids. My oldest graduated from the University of Illinois. There was, of course, the anxiety about him landing a job.

It took some time. But he's working for a European company. And part of it, you know, I had mixed feelings because I know many European companies and they take a long view and they have more developed leadership development programs, generally speaking. And, you know, so IBM is still one of those exceptions. Now, obviously, I left a few years ago. I still have many friends. But the product side, it is, you know, really important and deliberate where it's almost like this philosophy of slow down to be able to speed up that, you know, they challenge this notion of get them out there immediately so that you can really understand the fit and make the tough calls decisively. And, you know, as much as you can and intervene and try to see if you can get these people there or not sort of thing.

But also balancing that with, hey, we got to be proactive and make sure that we're investing in these people and some of the foundational capabilities that really make, you know, I think, you know, IBM, a company that just celebrated a few years ago its 100th anniversary. And, you know, to say that for a tech company, I think it's pretty amazing because I think at its core, IBM appreciates the products and services come and go. And it's really all about relationships. And I don't think that IBM would ever say it this way. But, you know, IBM is good at creating a culture where people are designing relationships. And those relationships have good stickiness. So, you know, after I left IBM, you know, which publicly traded company, obviously the need to balance lighting up the scoreboard and contributing, you know, to the quarterly numbers, but also planning for the long term.

And then I joined Salesforce, right, you know, a company with a monthly subscription business model. Just when I think it can't get any nuttier, you go from a quarterly to a monthly cadence, which, you know, our team was largely, you know, protected and buffered from that because we were really brought in to be a counterbalance. And I think it was a bit of the genius of Mark Benioff, right, because, you know, Mark started as an A.E., an account executive, an A.E. at Oracle. It's very well documented. He was very close to Larry. Larry mentored him. You know, so Mark, having been an account executive, you know, always has believed in the account executive as the quarterback, needs to be in the middle.

But he also, I think, realized that there were some limitations to that model. And, you know, look at the timing, you know, Salesforce was founded in 1999. Ignite was founded in 2013, right? Obviously, Salesforce was really focused on, you know, being a pioneer in cloud computing, you know, giving world-class CRM tools and platform, you know, that enterprise clients can afford, but to everybody else. Without the server, without the server and, right, the whole story is obvious. And that growth was great for the first 10 to 15 years. And then the realization of now we need to enter enterprise. And as Mark was starting to get into these, you know, intergalactic conversations about the future, I think he realized that he couldn't just hand this over to the traditional salesperson.

And that was why Ignite started was, okay, have a conversation that's a board CXO level, almost where, you know, you think you're talking to McKinsey or maybe IDEO or BCG. But then at the end, we're hoping that they decide to run their entire business on the Salesforce platform. And so within about six months of joining, right, I still have very much like the IBM playbook in my mind, but a very different product set. And what was interesting when I joined in 2013, growth markets to IBM were Uganda and Peru, right? When you have legacy products, growth markets, you know, for Salesforce were in New York City and Washington, D.C. because of the disruptive product, right? And I think the thing that I realized really, really quickly about Salesforce is many organizations talk about culture, right, and have posters.

But as I said, IBM changed my life, right? We relocated to the East Coast. It took me around the world. And I've learned a lot. But it was really more career changing. Salesforce, in a way, was truly life changing. It was the first time that I really felt like I was a part of an organization that, at least when I was there, that was really purpose centric in everything that it did. And it's like if you've ever been to Japan, right, and you spent some time there, you start to think it's like every square inch, right, every detail is someone's responsibility. And it's almost like that same philosophy in Salesforce and don't take anything for granted. Like Dreamforce, the big annual conference.

We're not going to start with, you know, the model and incrementally improve it. We're going to start with a blank sheet of paper. We're going to do something, you know, that gets people to say, wow, that's different. I want to be a part of that. FOMO, et cetera. So being a part of that inside of Salesforce, I think, is just amazing to see and experience. And the one thing that I think was really lasting was this thing called the V2MOM. Have you heard of the V2MOM? I don't think so. Okay. It's okay. Most people haven't. So it's an acronym for vision, values, methods, obstacles, and metrics. Okay. Yep. So basically it is a corporate document that is about aligning the entire organization in two or three pages maximum on the whole plan for the company.

But it's done in a way where the first time that we did this at Salesforce, I was sitting in a room with 300 other senior executives at our company kickoff. And it's revealed by our chairman and CEO as a draft and invites all of us in the room. And then the rest of the company streaming online to say, hey, give us your input, prioritization, what's missing. And the first time I saw it, I was just like, it was a lot for me to digest. Because is this real? Is this like signaling collaboration? But we already have what the answer is. Right, right. And we took a break. I'm like going to the restroom. And Mark literally was like, hey, come over here. You're the IBM guy, right? And I'm like first conversation with him, like, oh, boy.

And he's like, would the CEO of IBM ever do this? And I wanted to be very direct and say something that probably would get me in trouble. Like, no, Mark, no. Not even close. And it was a softer, like, no, it's really impressive, just the level of transparency. Because I had never observed anything like that in an organization that was bigger than, like, 50, 100 people. But the power of it was really, John, of just the repetition, doing it every year, every individual inside of the company, no matter your job, your seniority is expected to do it. And it's transparent. So before a meeting, I can look up somebody's V2 model and see the metrics that they care about and how they're tracking. So it sounds like a really simple, small thing, but it changed the level of productivity to a whole other level.

Because you look at any typical meeting, you spend the first half of it dancing around the handbag, trying to understand what do you care about, right? Are we speaking the same language? But now you have all of that, and you can internalize it and really jump to what do we want to do and why and align to what they care about. So do you think that there's an improvement in meeting productivity and team collaboration? Absolutely, there is. So I think there's a lot to learn from both of those organizations. And it was interesting. If you look at kind of the arrival of AI, there were some, not everybody, who were kind of dismissing IBM. And just like last month, the valuation of IBM, I think, was at par with Accenture and ServiceNow combined.

No way. And so don't give up on an idea. Not that you are. But I think the thing with AI that makes this different is it's very invisible. And so the more invisible it is, the more risk. And the more difficult it is for us to, I think, really understand it. And the pace. I think that's the problem that I see right now is that things are just moving so fast that, you know, you could innovate today and be like, oh, my God, look what I built. And then literally next week, it's now irrelevant. Like, I'm looking at the mid-market right now being like, I don't know how some of these companies are going to, most of these companies are going to survive. Because it's great, I think, for individuals, right?

Because I can build my world around what I want. I think it's great for the big companies like the Microsofts and like all of them because now, you know, I'm living in Claude. You know what I mean? I'm not going to Apollo. I'm not going to Salesforce anymore. I'm just going into Claude Cowork and saying, do this, and it'll go do it for me. So the middle market, and that's where I want to come to because I think all of this, you know, all your learnings over the years of an exposure to some really cool, innovative companies and structures led you to kind of what you wrote in your book about the framework that you have. And you talk, in your article last month, you wrote that innovations fail to scale, not because the ideas are bad, but because the partnerships meant to deliver them break down.

And you call the leader who fixes that a bridger. So could you walk through the ABC structure here for innovation? And then let's figure out how to apply it in today's world because it's so fast right now. I think there's almost analysis paralysis. People don't know how to innovate, what they should innovate. To your point, like there's, you know, hey, maybe one out of five of these ideas might, you know, land. But who knows, these days it's one out of 20 ideas and it might last for a month and then that month later. So walk me through the structure and how you came up with it. And then let's peel back each one of those roles and let's talk about how we apply it today. Yeah, no, sounds great.

So believe it or not, when we started writing this book, it was almost 10 years ago. And yeah, and when my co-author, Linda Hill, who was the chair of the leadership program at Harvard Business School, invited me to write this book, you know, the first thought I had was like kind of Gilligan's Island. You're like, oh yeah, it'd be a two-year, maybe three-year tour and we'll have a book. And, you know, I didn't factor for COVID and the level of quality that a Harvard Business School professor expects, which of course quality has always been my business plan as well. And so believe it or not, 10 years later and thousands of hours, but every minute worth it. And so when we set out to write this book, of course, like many other authors, we wanted to write a book that's timeless.

Who doesn't? And it's interesting, you know, with the arrival of AI, you know, we've been on our own roller coaster from, oh my God, will people read books ever again? To, you know, friends of mine, you know, sharing, hey, Jason, I'm writing my own AI book. It's like, oh, good luck. Hopefully it's still useful by the time it's published. It will be. You know, it's a good thing. And, you know, so there's been kind of a range of emotions. And so, you know, many business books, you know, are kind of lots of theory and frameworks and maybe that's okay, but they can be dry. We didn't want to write that book. You know, there are other books that are really interesting, but they're not really based on data.

So we didn't want to write that book either. And I, you know, I've been really blessed. It's not like I just want to write a book to write a book. But as a practitioner, right, going around the world, trying to help people that are talented, who I want to help, I just saw time and again, many of them just approaching it the wrong way. And before we get into the ABCs, and I'll describe how we kind of serendipitously, you know, bumped into that. You know, the first thing that we discovered was this myth of the lone genius, right? This idea that innovation is all about the Steve Jobs, who sees the world differently. And it's about like building followership of here's the destination, get in the car.

It's going to be bumpy, but it's going to be fun and rewarding, and let's go. And that the reality is, is that great organizations actually are good at creating environments where the best ideas surface, not the ideas of the people with the loudest voice or the biggest title. And so the first thing that, you know, we kind of learned was, you know, what we're really studying and we're talking about with these exceptional leaders is, is more wayfinding than it is pathfinding. If you look at traditional leadership, you really could describe it as pathfinding, right? This is the destination. It's the job of the leader of a business unit, of a startup, a CEO, whatever the context, right? To remove the barriers and inhibitors and get there.

But when the, to your point, when the world is literally like shifting underneath our feet by like 10 feet every week, every week, it doesn't really work. We don't have that luxury anymore. So that's why we're talking about wayfinding. And it's uncomfortable for a lot of leaders, especially the Fortune 100 leaders, who have to look decisive and confident and have an answer to every single question. And to your point, the reality is, because it's not just AI, but we also have quantum. We also have 5G. We have robotics, which to me is related to AI, but we haven't even really dipped our toe into the robotics side. And the thing is, these are all feeding off of each other. Individually, in and of themselves, they could be a catalyst enough of a true industrial revolution.

But we have multiple ones, and they're feeding off of each other. So I think it's creating another level of uncertainty. So as we were studying these leaders kind of bottom up, you know, some patterns started to surface. And these patterns were around what are the different mindsets and behaviors of these leaders. And we also heard a lot around, like, the importance of the fundamentals and the basics matter, and that leadership has become overcomplicated. I know that she's been kind of canceled a little bit, but Ellen DeGeneres had this great quote many years ago. She said, I left Facebook at the time to join Twitter, because who needs friends when you can have followers? Right. And she said that tongue-in-cheek.

Right. When you think about it, it's more convenient for many senior leaders to build followership than to do the hard work of creating the environment and the conditions where, you know, the ecosystem, let alone the organization, is predictably generating ideas. So we started to identify these patterns, and through the basics, we came up with this thing that we call the ABCs, A for architect, B for bridger, C for catalyst. So the architect is really, you know, a senior executive, but not always a senior executive. So each chapter of the book is a story of different leader or leaders. Most of the architects are CEOs, very senior executives, but not all of them. Some of them are middle managers.

And in a nutshell, the architects, you know, arguably have the most important job. And what they're trying to do is to create the culture where people are willing and able to want to innovate. And it sounds very simple, but you can't mandate innovation, nor can you delegate co-creating the future. Innovation just doesn't happen. It has to be led. So how do you create those conditions where there's shared purpose, the rules of engagement, there's psychological safety, where people feel like they can challenge the status quo and not be penalized or put in corporate jail for doing? So the architects really create that foundation and build community. And really, if you look at Linda's last book, Collective Genius, that was published about 12 years ago, it was largely about, you know, how these architects do this inside of their own organization.

But as the world was changing, we realized that it's like, yes, that's important, but it's not enough. And, you know, for different reasons, you also need the role of bridger. Well, hold on. What's the foundation, though? Like, what is the foundation to create innovation, right? Because you hit on a point that I think is real and I've been talking about. I think the top-down decision-making these days is a fool's errand, right? Especially in the world of AI, because by the time, let's just use basic examples, right? Say I, as a leader, identify a problem that I have in my organization. Okay. Well, now I got to go evaluate the vendors that can solve that problem. And then I got to go through that process and then choose one and then implement and then train everybody.

You're nine to 12 months out of any significant implementation of any software solution, whatever it is, right? And I can't tell you what's going to happen nine days from now, forget about nine months from now. So that's why I think, you know, Jolt Effect and those books are talking about the indecision problem right now because it's just moving so fast. So it's almost like cultivating the bottom-up approach to innovation. But how do you lay that framework or that foundation to allow for that outside of the interview process and getting the right people on the bus and all that stuff? What does it look like? Yeah, there's many things you can do. And, you know, let me give you a couple of examples.

So I think number one is the importance of language. So one of the architects in the book, you know, was new to Pfizer and before COVID and Project Lightspeed happened, began some of the transformational work of their clinical supply chain group. And one of the things he realized was there was a lot of fatigue, fatigue about many things, but change fatigue. So it sounds very simple. But he, like, banned the word change. And if you think about it at, like, a deep psychological level, it's like, more change. We went through the change program last year, another change program. Oh, my God. And instead, he said, let's evolve. And it's about evolution. Right. Sounds very, very simple. But the point is, who doesn't want to keep up with the Joneses?

Who doesn't want to be better at whatever they do? And if you don't have that attitude and mindset, then implicitly find another job somewhere else. I think another thing was he introduced the idea of a straight talk coin. He found a little bit to your point that some organizations are too nice to each other. Yeah. Right. And, you know, it's great that, like, people are nice to each other. But sometimes you need to have the really difficult, necessary conversations. Put the emotions aside. Bring data. And say, okay, hey, this is not about, like, pointing blame and who's at fault. We're really figuring out how we're going to get out of this moment and learn from it so it hopefully doesn't happen ever again.

So he realized that when and where he was interjecting in the meetings was changing the dynamics of how his team was working together. So he would stop talking until the end. He gave everyone a coin. And when they would put the coin on the table, it meant something, that someone had something very important to say. And over time, like, meetings that were, like, another meeting for the sake of a meeting became, like, sacred spaces to openly talk about needed change. So, you know, a few other things are, I think too many organizations and leaders focus on outcomes and measuring outcomes. And, yeah, measure some outcomes, but also focus on, like, learning and creating an environment where people are learning really, really quickly.

I think the other thing that people do is culture is one of those things that it's interesting. John, you talk about it. It's so intangible. You can literally, like, put people asleep. But then logically, you think about it, you know, you can copy products and services. You can buy and poach talent. Like, culture is the one thing that you can uniquely make yours. And years ago, I was at some Singularity University event in a ballroom in Silicon Valley, innovation guy up on stage with the microphone. And he asked for a show of hands of, like, I want to see who feels like they work for a company where they really believe in the purpose. And I put my hand up. At the time, I was working for Salesforce.

If you ask me now what's some of the things that would happen, I'm not sure I would put my hand up. Yeah. Then, you can go there if you want. No. I bought into it as well, and I thought it was sincere. But I look around, and there's, like, two other people. The innovation guy on the stage, I think he was shocked. I think he's used to, like, no one raising their hands. He's like, give this man a microphone. And he's like, where do you work? Well, Salesforce. And he's like, oh, yeah, sure. Because of the intentionality of, like, creating shared purpose. So, I think that's one of the most simple things. I could say, yeah, purpose, then what? Yeah. But so many people focus on the ideas and execution, measuring things, but the clarity of purpose is just not there.

That, to me, I've always said that if you don't, if you can't share a vision and show people how they align with that vision, you'll never get them to do more than their job. Period. Yes. But if you show the vision of where we're trying to go and be transparent and honest and open about it. That's why I even coached leaders. Like, if you're starting a business and you know you want to sell the sucker in two to three years, tell everybody in the company that you're trying to sell this in two or three years and incentivize them to do it. Don't pretend like you're not. Because it's just like parents who are having a bad relationship. They don't think that the kid can pick up on it. You know what I mean?

It's like the kid picks up on every fucking thing that parents, the interactions, the sly look, like they feel it. And so do employees. If they don't feel like they're genuinely part of something bigger than themselves, they will never do anything more than what their job description says. Yes. I think you're absolutely right. And I saw it. I mean, I saw it pragmatically when, you know, we were hiring people at Microsoft and Salesforce. So level of talent, and there was one, I mean, she could have worked really literally anywhere. It's like, why aren't you working in Nassar, Goldman Sachs? And I felt humbled and privileged. And her answer was, I mean, stay with me to this day, which was, I just, I think Salesforce gets it.

And I want to be a part of something that I think hopefully will have a chain of, you know, an impact on the world. And so I use that as an example because there's organizations who have, like, no purpose and think they do. There are organizations who have articulated and shared that purpose. They have clarity of purpose, but it's not shared and there's no buy-in. And then I think ultimately Nirvana is where it's truly shared, a shared purpose. And it really is institutionalized down into the operating model of, you know, no one's going to get angry or irritated if I bring some of my own personal passion to this movement that we're trying to ignite collectively. Well, you got to have passion across the board, right?

One way or the other. So got to apply it. You know, that's why I always hire for passion, because if you have it, I can't teach it. I can't teach passion. I can't teach drive. I can teach all the other crap. So let's move on to the bridger. So what's the bridger all about? Because you're A, B, right? So the architect, the person that kind of sets the vision and the foundation and that type of stuff. Then there's the bridger to what's that role? Yeah, bridger to me is the unsung hero of innovation, right? Architects, you know, a lot of risk, a lot of pressure, but they're also in the spotlight. You can use really CXOs, a lot of authority, a lot of power. We'll get to the catalysts. Catalysts, you know, are about igniting movements that hopefully change the way that we live and work.

But bridgers are doing a lot of the important work outside of the spotlight. Bridgers show up in different ways in organizations through different titles. But ultimately, bridges are really good at building partnership. And the realization was that innovation doesn't really stall in ideation. We don't live in a world with idea problems. We live in a world with execution problems. And that's not really like technical execution. It's really about, like, integrating people. Yeah. Yeah, and integrating people. So bridges are really good at building partnerships with uncommon vendors and getting people to kind of broaden their horizons beyond the same partners that we always work with. They're really good at, like, translation, business and technology, outside and inside, marketing and sales.

So they tend to be the polyglots of the organization and are really good at efficiently getting people on the same page without erring into consensus building. Because consensus building, to me, is one of the greatest enemies of innovation. Not even innovation, like changing people. Anything. Right? I mean, I've got a lot to learn, but I've never seen anything that's great that's the result of consensus building. At best, it's, like, average. And it's, like, who the hell wants to be a part of a project that's average, right? So the bridges are really good at kind of these organizational partnerships. And the problem is, is you can almost draw a line these days between the organizations who we believe get it or investing in this capability that shows up in different ways for deployed engineers, one of the hottest jobs in tech, rev ops, chief of staff, right?

And these roles that are really sitting at kind of around boundaries, which, if you realize it, it's where, like, these great ideas have always stalled and, for different reasons, incentive system or not invented here, or we've got something else that's a priority. So the bridges are, like, masters at integration and building these social partnerships. So we have different stories, you know, in the book. But one of my favorite stories is Nicole Jones, who was the head of innovation at Delta Airlines and created their innovation incubator lab called The Hangar. So you can imagine what it's like to try to create something like that in a highly risk-averse, regulated airline that thinks that they have, like, two things to do.

Sell seats in a plane and get those people from A to B. It's like innovation is where, like, careers go to die. So she was masterful at generously sharing credit and never talking about her own team, like, mapping out, like, where the partnerships will matter depending on different scenarios. So she was building the relationships before they were needed in a time of urgency and really good at, like, trust building in low-trust environments. And I think that's what bridges are great at. Okay, awesome. Well, let's finish on this because there's a catalyst. I want to leave people to read some of the book, too. So how should we be, with all that you know about innovation and structuring it internally and everything else, how should we be looking at it right now?

Because it just feels like things, like, innovation is smacking us in the face all day long. And even if you want, like, I consider myself not, like, bleeding edge or anything like that, but I tend to push the envelope. I'm a high D, I keep trying them, you know, and breaking things and whatever. But I'm almost shell-shocked right now because I'm seeing so much innovation come at me, whether I like it or not. It's in my face every day with a new Instagram post, a new article that's coming out, a new app that launches within an app that I'm using. And I'm like, oh, my God. So how should we be even approaching innovation right now? Is there, like, a slow-down-to-speed-up approach on AI? Yeah, I mean, there's so many different things.

I think, you know, first on AI, since you end there, I've stopped saying AI tools. And I'm not the first person to kind of come to that conclusion. I felt, you know, validated that Jensen Huang and GTC last week was also with, like, Disney robots walking that stage talking about AI is more infrastructure. Because I think when people call it a tool, it's, you know, it's predetermining its capabilities and limiting it right out of the gate. And we're just at the beginning, to your point, of scratching the surface of what this can do. So what's my advice, you know, around the topic of innovation? One of the things that I'm really blessed, you know, to do is to travel the world. And the thing about traveling the world is, right, you learn that people see things differently and have different points of view.

One of the things that's really interesting is, in the West, we have a largely pessimistic view, right, of, is this going to take away from me very zero-sum? When and how is it going to take my job? Define the game versus the infinite game, yeah. Yeah, I don't get a lot from LinkedIn these days. But a little bit of a recycled echo chamber. But you never know. And somebody, and I wish I could remember their name, had like the quote of the month, which was, don't worry about AI taking your job. Worry about a clueless boss laying you off because he or she thinks that AI can do your job. And I think that that's closer to reality than it really taking your job. Now, in Asia, in South America, what's very interesting, and of course, there are geopolitical, sociological factors in this, but genuinely, they're much more optimistic.

And they look at AI as, wow, everyone is going to be able to have access to the best doctor in the world. That's amazing. Why wouldn't that be great? Forever, the history of humanity has been a story of Peter Drucker, acquire knowledge, then apply that knowledge to create and capture value. Well, now knowledge is free. And the real value creation is in the creativity of how you start to apply endless knowledge and execution capabilities. Well, in these environments, in the developing world of frugal innovation and the gig economy, they've been living in this kind of dynamic for as long as they can remember. So now it's like, wow, the surface area that we can impact and the probability of success in their point of view is much, much greater.

So let me tell you like a really, really quick story, and then I'll come to the takeaway. So I saw a demo recently, and it was, you know, lots of things are, you know, that are amazing or happening around the world, including in India, a place that I've had a chance to visit like at least 25 times. So the demo I saw, and literally like a couple of people were going to cry in the middle of a tech demo. So what is it? It's, you know, a farmer in rural India. He's intelligent, but he's illiterate, can't read or write. He hears of some, like, government program and, like, conveys in his local dialect through a version of ChatGPT. Hey, I've heard of this program. I want to see if I'm eligible. Comes back, voice conversation, in the local dialect and says, looks like you're eligible.

You have to go to this portal, fill out a couple of documents. You'll get, you know, a bank check in the next number of weeks. And this is when it gets good. The farmer says, I don't know what a portal is. I'm not going anywhere. Just do it for me. So, you know, the bot comes back, asks a couple more questions. Voila, does it. Okay? So it's like, oh, yeah, no big deal. Until you look behind the scenes. So how did this happen? Some guy in India heard about the government of India democratizing a bunch of documents, just making them available to the public. So he was also, you know, trying to find people working in translation. He comes across a guy in California working on some API, you know, integration tool, you know, speech to text, text to speech of pretty much any language in the world.

They meet up, they scaffold and daisy chain the translation engine to his specialized small language model focused on these government documents. A month later, two guys changed the life of a farmer in India. And why were these people crying? Because they grew up in India and they were saying their entire life and the generations before them, they've been waiting for the industrial revolution to arrive in rural India. And now here it is. So I think a lot of it really starts with your attitude and your perspective. The other side of this is get good at problem solving. The world will always have problems. We may not know what those problems are, but what is creative problem solving? It's also design thinking.

And design thinking was kind of flushed down the toilet a bit because of jargon and design had its moments. But you strip away kind of the labeling at its core. It's about fast learning, rapid experimentation, getting out in the world, finding problems that people care about, right? And coming up with a solution to address those. So that's my invitation is whether I'm meeting with the CEO or my kid's local school, get great at problem solving. I think that's a great place, Dan, because I keep telling sales reps, like I think we've lost when you talk about science and art, right? I think, unfortunately, the sales force model, the predictable revenue model, over-scienced sales. And we've got to get back to the art and, you know, the segmentation of roles and everybody has their process and you've got to go through this.

It's like, no. Sales at its essence is being a problem solver. I tell people, if you think sales is about convincing somebody of something, you are doing it wrong. Sales is about helping people solve problems or achieve goals. And that's it. And if you have that mentality, you can, and by the way, sometimes that problem isn't something you can solve. So you can bring in somebody else that can solve it. But be the problem solver. And I think that is the innovation, right? Because the best innovation, you watch Shark Tank, you can watch all that stuff. All the best innovations or products or services come from somebody having that problem. Like, I have this problem. I'm trying to fix this for myself because it's annoying.

And, hey, maybe a few other people have this problem. And holy smokes, looks like they do. Let's see if we can maybe sell this to a few people and help a few people out. So, Jason, I love the conversation, man. I think we should end it there and leave people with some more resources for them to go check out the book, check out the articles, check out what you're doing. So tell everybody where they can find out more information about Jason Wild and all the work you're doing right now. Yeah, I appreciate that. So the book is Genius at Scale, How Great Leaders Drive Innovation. It's the lead title by Harvard Business Review Press. You can find it at geniusatscale.com. Your favorite local retailer, Barnes & Noble, Amazon.

Also available in Portuguese and Chinese if you speak those languages. There you go. We want to ignite our own movement. So we would love to hear back from people and what resonates. We think it's a good moment to write a love letter to a different style of leadership. So look forward to hearing back from you and your community. Love it. Awesome, Jason. Well, thank you so much for joining me, man. I really enjoyed the conversation. My pleasure. Enjoyed it too. Likewise. And everybody, hopefully you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day.

And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. If you're in sales right now, you're feeling it. Something's off. Quotas harder to hit. Buyers aren't picking up their phone. And the playbook that worked two years ago doesn't work anymore. And every week, there's a new AI tool that promises to do your job for you. Now, look, here's the truth. We are in the middle of the biggest shift this profession has ever seen. The old model is absolutely broken, and everybody knows it. Spray and pray outreach, volume over value, activity metrics that reward busy work instead of outcomes. That era is over. And the new model? Nobody hasn't figured out yet.

We're all in this transition together. The people who are going to come out ahead are the ones who stop pretending like things are fine, accept the game has changed, and start building the skills to compete in what's coming next. That's why I built this channel. My name is John Barrows. I've spent over 15 years training sales teams at companies like Salesforce, LinkedIn, Google, Amazon, Slack, Okta, and hundreds of other companies. Before that, I was making $400 a week as an SDR. And I also built a company from nothing and took it all the way through acquisition. And then I started JBSales because I kept seeing the same problem go unsolved. Here's what I know after all of that. The fundamentals of selling have never changed.

How you prospect, how you run discovery, how you build a business case, how you negotiate, even how you close. That's the foundation. And over the last 10 years, especially in tech sales, we've gotten away from that. We've leaned on tools. We've leaned on inbound. We've leaned on a market that was so hot, it covered up a lot of bad habits. Those days are gone. The market has corrected. And what we're left with is a generation of sellers who have never had to do the hard stuff because they didn't have to. And now they have to. And so do you. So here's my approach. Let's get back to the fundamentals. Learn the why behind every sales motion so you actually understand what you're doing and can adapt when things change.

And then layer AI on top of it to handle the repetitive time-consumer work so you can spend your time on the thing that actually wins deals, the human connection. Look, AI is not replacing salespeople. Well, it's replacing lazy salespeople. And also salespeople who use AI are replacing salespeople who don't. And the ones who combine the real fundamentals with AI are going to be unstoppable. That's what this channel gives you. Every week, I post tactical, no-fluff sales content you can use on your very next call. Tips on prospecting, cold calling, objection handling, discovery, closing. Stuff that works today, not theory from a textbook. I also host the Make It Happen Monday podcast right here on this channel.

Every week, I sit down with the top sales leaders, authors, and operators in the industry. And we talk about what's actually working, what's changing, and where this profession is headed. If you want to stay ahead of what's moving in sales and AI, that podcast is your cheat code. Everything on this channel is free. Subscribe, and you'll get better at sales, period. If you want to go deeper, I got three ways to work with me. JBSales Pro is the membership I built for individual reps who are serious about leveling up. On-demand training, live sessions, frameworks, and a community of sellers who give a shit about getting better. The link is in the description. For reps who want hands-on coaching, my JBSales Elite program is where I work with you directly to sharpen your skills and accelerate your career.

And for companies going through this transition, my JBSales Direct gets me to work directly with your sales organization to get them back to those fundamentals and learn how to leverage AI across the entire sales process. One more thing. I send a weekly newsletter where I break down what I'm seeing in sales, share what's working, and give you something actionable every single week. Sign up. It's free. And the link's in the description. Look, here's the bottom line. The reps who are going to thrive through this transition are the ones who commit to getting better every single day. 1% better. That's all it takes. Start here, subscribe, and let's make it happen.