Amy Volas on How to Live a Proactive Life VS a Reactive Life

Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a real positive impact on the world around us. And there's nobody I know better who makes a more positive impact than my good friend Amy Bolas. Amy is the founder and CEO of Avenue Talent Partners, and she has had multiple startups, multiple exits. She's sold over 100 million in revenue in her career, and she's really experienced all of it. It takes a very unique approach to recruiting and helping companies find the right talent that we get into today. But we started at a bigger level because I'm personally on a new journey right now to redefine my why and get clarity on it.

And so I talk about Amy, about her personal why, how she figured it out, the values that she lives, and what happened at 40 years old that made this shift for her to stop living a reactive life and being much more purposeful and proactive moving forward. And so we talk about decision-making and how she looks at decision-making as far as her career is concerned, and obviously thinking about the stuff that she likes to do, but also more importantly, what she doesn't like to do, which bled into my conversation about energy management versus time management. And she has a very interesting approach. Apparently, she's been journaling her entire life. Talk about this chest that she has in her house that I really want to get my hands on because apparently since she's been 10 years old, she's been journaling and she's kept every one of them, but the way she uses journaling to reflect on and help her make decisions is fascinating to me.

And I think I'm actually going to start to adopt it. And we talk about a bunch of other things, but really the ultimate piece here is about owning your career and again, being purposeful and meaningful with what you do. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did and get a lot out of it. She talks some very tactical things you can do here to make a difference in your own life. All right, let's make it happen. What's happening, Make It Happen family? Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Proposify, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes.

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Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. All right, Amy Bolas, how have you been? John Barrows, I've been really well. I've missed you. How have you been? I've been good. I'm better now. It's been an interesting couple of years here for me, I think for everybody. I'm finally feeling like I got a good idea of what's next for me. But, you know, I can't complain. I constantly remind myself how fortunate I am to be where I am doing what I'm doing and with the people like you and having these conversations. So I cannot complain at the end of the day. But it's great to see you. I mean, when was the last time we talked?

You've been on this podcast a couple of times. I mean, it was a couple of years ago, but it was before COVID, right? We, the last time we did this, it was right when COVID broke because we were talking about if you've lost your job, what do you need to think about? How do you stand out? So that was, let's call it like Q1-ish, Q2-ish of 2020. So, I mean, it's about time you asked me back. You can't go too long without having me. Come on, John. Of course not. No, two years, like try to at least bring you back every two years. And I wanted to take a different angle with this one, similar but different, you know, really interested in your perspective. And for everybody who doesn't know, look up Amy.

I mean, she's the go-to when it comes to career and recruiting and everything else. And really, I think because of that, you have your finger on the pulse a lot more than most as far as what's really happening out there. So I wanted to start with one question and then we'll get into other stuff. But is the great resignation real or is that just something that's, because, and the reason I ask is there's a lot of hype and buzz around it, but I think about the, you know, the single mom with three kids who works not in SAS, there's no great resignation happening there. You know what I mean? Like those people can't just, oh, I got my values and I, you know, this COVID has made me wake up and I realized I want to go do something better with my life.

It's like, that doesn't, so is it from your perspective, is it, is it real? Is it really happening right now? Or is it just something that we all think is happening? I think like any big statement that somebody makes that then it becomes real for those that jump on that bandwagon. And I think, I think it's real in certain respects and I think it's absolutely nonsense in others. And that's the thing that I'm really trying to tell people to consider is what is happening in your world? What is happening in your company? What is happening in your marketplace? What is happening in your segment? When it comes to tech sales, I think what happened with COVID and what we're seeing now is the fact that you've got a lot of people that stuck around because they were afraid they were going to leave anyway before COVID happened.

So it just sort of happened in a vacuum. Oh, and by the way, these numbers, they're big because the market is super frothy right now. So with so much aggressiveness when it comes to needing to keep up with market demands and hiring and people, there's more money floating around in venture capital than there ever has been. The second you get money, you and I both know this. What's the first thing that you have to do? You have to go higher. So it's like, there's all this stuff that's happening where I think people make these big statements. Yes. 15 million people resigned from, it was like a very short amount of time. I can't remember all the stats. This was McKinsey's data. So anybody can go Google that.

It was 15 million people and it was in a very short amount of time. But you have to think, what is that? The more troubling thing that I think about is, so we've lost women in the marketplace, for example. And why is that? And I don't love the rhetoric around, well, everybody should just be remote. Well, no. Do you know how many moms I talk to that are remote? They've lost childcare because of COVID. Every other week, the daycare center is shut down. They don't have a nanny. They don't have backup resources. Family doesn't live close by. Friends are quarantining. And now they have to work, plus be head of household. If they're a single parent, good luck to you. Oh, and they've got kids that refuse to take a nap or don't feel well or whatever the case is, and they're supposed to be working.

And it's like, wait a second. So I call BS on a lot of these big statements of like, remote is where it's at. The great resignation is a real thing. It's like, these are all real things that are happening. But what, in my mind, the bigger topic is, are you understanding what's going on? What's going on in your own backyard? And how are you showing up in that moment for your business versus trying to be like everybody else when you grow up? Yeah. I think there's just such a, you know, I had this whole keynote that I want to do is just like, hey, stop doing what you're supposed to do, which is everybody kind of follows in line. And like we talked about book and prep for this call. It's like the predictable revenue model.

It's like everybody, every SaaS company follows the predictable revenue model of segmenting every role and all that. Why? Because, well, Salesforce did it and they were super successful doing it. So we should be doing it. And by the way, I'm a huge benefactor of that because people will call me up and say, hey, John, we know you train Salesforce. Come over here and train us. I'm like, well, wait a minute. Do you need this type of training? Is this the right fit for what you're trying? I don't know, but we're doing the same thing Salesforce is. So come in here. I'm like, ah, and I look at, you know, and we take a step back. I ask them some questions and I'm like, no, this training actually isn't going to be effective for where you are right now in your business.

So I think you're right. And which leads me to my next kind of question. And I think it's a bigger one is how have you looked at your career when it comes to making decisions? And for instance, let's start with your why, for instance, Simon Sinek, your why? Like, why do you do what you do? Have you ever sat down and nailed that down as far as like gone through the exercise of your why or do you know it? And then I want to back into that as far as how it's helped you, A, how it's evolved and B, how it's helped you make decisions in your career. So can we start with your why and how you've, you know, if you have one, how you developed it and then back into it? Yeah. So yes, I do have one. Yes, I am a huge Simon Sinek fan.

Yes, if you could see the books on the shelves in the back, they are dog-eared and underlined and tattered and torn because I've read them many times. The thing about the why is I had no idea what mine was until I was 40 years old. I'm now 47. So it's not like you always know it. But what's interesting is, is once I nailed it, when I look back in the rear view mirror and how did I make decisions? I didn't always make the right decisions. I didn't always have a methodology. I didn't always do it strategically or thoughtfully or intentionally. I flew by the seat of my pants at times and that came back and it bit me. And it's why I'm so outspoken. That's part of my why is I use my voice. I created my company.

The things that I do, whether it's Thursday night sales or it's showing up on podcasts is I've learned a thing or two. I've mastered a thing or two. I've messed up way more than a thing or two. And in the work that I do and the really lovely honor I have, like every week with 150 plus people that are talking about their problems in sales and in their careers at every level. And even founders join us and marketers and CS. And it's amazing to me to see the common themes. And oh, by the way, I was that chick too. And so it's interesting to me is that's part of my why is paying what I've learned forward and watching how that materializes and then getting better as a result to iterate on my own stuff.

And so early, the common thread for me with my why is it's always been and always will be about people for me. Fun fact, when I was growing up, I'm a huge James Bond fan. We cannot talk about the last movie. I will start crying. I'm still upset about it. I'm like, do not, not do this to me, Daniel Craig. Anyway, I thought I wanted to be a spy. And I went to school for criminal justice. I know, I know, I know, right? How old were you when you thought you wanted to be a spy? You're not talking like when you were five. You're talking like... I started that dream like I got bitten by the James Bond bug in fourth grade through college. Like seriously, I thought I was going to be the woman from the Matrix in like a trench coat with slick back hair to one of the Bond girls.

Like I had this whole vision in my mind of who I was going to be. And then it dawned on me. If I were detained and I were under surveillance and somebody threatened like my family's life, I would sing like a canary. Like it would be, there would be a problem there. And you can't have a fulfilled life with a lot of meaningful relationships because you're keeping country safe and doing these things. And I'm one that, like, that's my fuel. As one of my coaches has said to me, if zero is you're mute, you cannot use words. You don't know how to use them. You don't want to use them. It just doesn't occur to you. And 10 is like you're Oprah on the book signing circuit. She's like, you're like a 15.

Like you're off the chart of needing to be around people and communicating. And that was the thing. So after college, I was like, wait, I don't want to go to law school. Like that's going to be a no for me. And I don't want to be in the police force. I just want to like go straight to like special agent status. And there's no way. And fun fact, I got a tattoo. You can't have a tattoo because you can't have any remarkable thing about you. So I'm like, what? So that bad decision on when I was 18 years old in my freshman year of college and getting that tattoo. So that's going to work again. So all these things, just the universe was telling me like, wait. And it was that moment that I think so many people go through after college.

And nobody, universities are just starting to kind of flirt with this concept. Practical education for like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And actually, John, I saw a posting or I forgot what it was. Something recently where you were helping your niece or your family member. Like, should you go to college? Yes or no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The calculator. Yeah. Yes. And I was like, good, because it's not for everybody. And I'm not going to poo-poo education. But like for a sales career, I've known so many people that have advanced degrees that can't have any sort of business conversation. And I've known people that have no formal education and just shine so bright and are wicked smart.

So it's just interesting to me. But I think for me, what happened was I didn't have that support. And it was like, well, now you're an adult and make decisions. And you're shell-shocked. And you're like, wait, what? What do you mean? And so I remember feeling really sad and feeling very lost. And it was that intersection of like, I'm not in high school anymore. I'm not in college anymore. I went to college in a different state altogether. And none of my people are here. And I felt alone. And I felt like at loss. Like, I don't know what to do. And so nobody, the whole like therapy, coaching, mentoring, social media didn't exist. None of this stuff. So it's like I had to figure it out. And as much as that was hard, I'm really grateful that I had to figure it out.

And so the big common theme for me of decision-making is it's mostly about what I don't want to do that helps me understand what I do want to do. That's been very, very helpful for me. And so I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer. I knew I didn't want to be a police officer. I knew, and not that those aren't good jobs or great jobs, just not for me. And so what started materializing for me is, well, I feel a lot of energy when I'm around people. And how can I help people? And what can I actually do with people? And how could I make people my living? And funnily enough, which is so weird, one of my very, very first roles was being a tech recruiter. Like, could you imagine me as a tech recruiter?

Like, there's no way. But somehow I was. And that's also then when I was thrown into the deep end of getting into enterprise sales. But I didn't have a choice. That's the thing is, so this sounded cool. I can put people in jobs, and I can talk to them, and I can help them. And that gave me a big charge. But then it also turned me off of looking at people in the staffing. The word staffing is a dirty word to me. In the staffing industry, it was like pushing people, like cattle prodding, and just gross. And if you can see, I've got like a grimace on my face. I'm not happy about that. It makes me cringe. And so I found this company that gave me this opportunity. I loved them. The company taught me a really valuable lesson early on.

You put all your eggs in one basket. They didn't have a pipeline. 9-11 hit. Recession happened. I survived a bunch of layoffs. And I sat down with the founder, and he was like, look, we love you. There's nothing to recruit for. You want a role? You got to sell. And the rest, I was forced into it, right? Because I didn't want to leave. So I didn't even make a decision. I guess I did make a decision. I made a decision to stay. But I didn't think about it. I just was like, wait, I want to be with Gary and these people that still to this day are some of my best friends. I want to do this. But there was no rhyme or reason. And then I've done all the things that I tell people not to do. I've chased the shiny objects called money, called somebody was messing with my commission plan.

And I'm upset about that. And I dominated in a quarter. And you know what's going to happen the next quarter of what they've already told me is they're going to change the way that they pay me. And they're going to expect 4x more from me. And so I'm mad about it. And guess what? I get a call from a recruiter that day. And that opportunity turns into something. And all of a sudden, I've got three opportunities. I'm not even thinking about it. I'm just emotionally going through it. And then I end up taking a role that was not good for me with a 50k bump in my base. So it wasn't like peanuts. It was a big bump. And on the first day, I called my husband crying. And that's where the scorecard came from.

Because I vowed to myself I would never do it. So I'm in a long, drawn out, in the weeds with you, John. And I'm sure you're going to cut out a lot of that. But in my mind, how I make decisions is from what I don't want to do, what I screwed up that really hurt me, and remembering what I do best and what I do like doing at the same time. And so then at 40 years old, when I've got a whole career behind me, it was this no longer satisfies me. I'm sick of being a pawn in a startup game of, we'll take care of you. And then when we get to a certain level, because I'm a builder, like early, early stage, that was my jam. And then when you do what you say you're going to do, oh, and then we get our funding.

Now we screw you around. And I was sick of that rollercoaster ride. I love that intersection, but it's not forever. And I was sick of it. I was fatigued by it. And if I'm going to make everybody else all this money, why not do it for myself? And so then the why of, well, why am I doing this? Why do I love this? Why was I glutton for punishment there? What was all the good stuff? So I'm going through my own scorecard methodology out loud right now. It was like those things. And by the way, what do I hate? You know what I hate? I hate really icky recruiting. As a sales leader, I made bad decisions recruiting. Being in other companies that were scaling quickly, bad decisions in hiring, especially for sales.

And getting that wrong and seeing firsthand what that looks like. Oh, and by the way, selling products and services my entire career in the HR tech space, I learned a lot about what works well and what doesn't work well. I have tribal knowledge and expertise that most people don't. Oh, and by the way, I've also sold over $100 million in revenue. I kind of know some stuff. Wait a second. I actually have a methodology. I could actually charge some money for this. And I could actually disrupt something to show people that you don't have to compromise people to still be wildly successful. And to bring it back full circle that people are still the thing the bots haven't taken over. So that's like, notice how I just went through this whole long drawn out of the thing.

That's what's up here. That's my psychosis. No, and I love it. And I'd love to unpack some of that. And I'm curious, you know, 40. I've had this conversation before that, you know, whether you believe in the 10,000 hours thing or whatever, there is a point where it's almost like in your 20s, you know, you're always looking up, right? Because you don't know what you don't know. And you're looking at people who are more senior than you. And you're like, well, you might kind of try to fake it till you make it. You might have false confidence that you're better than you are or whatever. But still, you're looking up, right? And in your 30s, you're kind of like, okay, I kind of got this. Like, especially if you stay in an industry for a period of time, you're like, okay, I think I know what I'm talking about.

But you're still kind of holding on to your 20s because you still think you're cool. But you're still looking up to the gray beards up there being like, oh, man, you know, you're still. So there's still a little bit of an imposter syndrome. At 40, and I noticed a very distinct shift in the conversations at 40 years old because I started talking to people who were far less experienced than me. And when I would just talk like breathing about a certain topic that was so basic in my mind that it was, you know, I've forgotten more about sales than most people know in their 20s. All of a sudden, these people with less experience were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What did you just say there?

And I'd pause and be like, what are you talking about? Like, that's like table stakes. Like, that's a basic fundamental piece of this job, right? And to know that it wasn't, it was like this. It dawned on me. I'm like, wait a minute here. I, to your point, I got some experience. I've made more than my fair share of mistakes, and my whole why is a little bit of it, and I'm trying to hone in on it now, which is why I'm curious kind of how you got there and the pieces of it. But same thing, pay it forward. And to help anybody skip a few steps, not all of them, we all got to take the lumps. Like, same point to you is I, thankfully, I'm glad I had to do it the hard way. I'm glad I got my ass kicked for a significant period of time and failed multiple times to get to where I am because I have some decent perspective.

But the hope is, is that, you know, the people that we connect with here, that they can skip a couple of steps, right? Maybe not make as many mistakes, right? It's kind of like, you know, with my daughter now, it's hard. It's that balance of I know what she's about to do is going to not end up right. So how do I coach her to that? Do I let her experience that or do I tell her? And then I told you so scenario, right? So it's this nice little balance. But I'm wondering for you, what happened at 40? I mean, you were very specific with that number. Was there an event? Was there a, was there an epiphany that happened at that, like at that stage where you were like, wait a minute, I now get it. And I'm now being more purposeful with my decisions as opposed to what sounded like you were very reactive in your decisions previously.

I'm going to try to keep this succinct and not go too far off the path because there were a lot of things that happened, right? So, and I've talked about this with my therapist ad nauseum. At 40, whether you are a male or a female, you now know what half of your life looks like lived. You just do, like you've done it. And you can quantify it because you lived it. It's not a concept. It's, it's a practice. And you realize, whoa, that went fast. And then you have this realization of, if I'm lucky, I might have 40-ish, maybe some more, maybe some less years left. And what does that mean? And that hit me like a ton of bricks. At the same time, I was doing great work. We had gotten a huge round of funding and things change, right?

And it wasn't like people were nefarious and out to get me. It was just the stuff that happens when you get a lot of money and there are highly technical founders and there isn't necessarily an understanding of sales and the things and all of that. And lots of big changes. And two big changes in particular came down my street. And I will never forget, I lost sleep for three nights. Like I could, I was in a tizz, John. Like literally couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, was tormented. And my husband's watching me go through this. And he's like, I've had enough. I've seen you go through this before and this is the worst time. And I'm afraid that it's just going to continue to get worse. What are you doing?

Because for me, the one thing that I know, and I've known this my entire life, and luckily I have a therapist that I've had in my life for 12 years that knows me, that calls me on my nonsense. And she's like, for you, it's not just work. It means so much more. It's like in every fiber of my being, it's not just how I get paid. It matters to me on a deeper level. And when you care like that and you pour yourself into something and you do more than you're ever asked for, and then it's like, well, not only are we going to increase what we expect of you, we're going to reduce what we pay you by 60% and act like we're giving you a bum. Well, I'm not dumb, right? I know what that means. And I feel betrayed because that wasn't the deal that we made on the way in.

And I thought it was very clear by that. And so I'm going through this thing. At the same time, at 40, my husband and I picked up where we had always lived and moved to a place that we didn't know anybody. We were making big changes because of that. How do we architect the rest of our lives? And it needs to matter on a different level. So these changes were happening. And ultimately, for me, it was, why will I do this again to myself? This is not working. I'm living Einstein's definition of insanity. Also, by the way, I had started a company in 2008. And I got my rear end handed right back at me in a horrifically painful way. Not exactly an awesome time to start a company. No, we did it in the summer and everything was great.

And then all of a sudden, it's an election year. And all the things that were tied to that election year were tied to the business model that we had. And the fun fact is I had to leave because we were bootstrapped. I'm a bootstrap gal. And I know you appreciate that. My business partner, who was my former boss, who was a mentor, who was a dear person in my life. He was living in a sister's casita. No overhead. Here I am, married, big house, big expenses. And I had to make a decision. He stuck around for two and a half more years, didn't sell one thing, stayed with the business. That business is now evaluated at $250 million and I'm so proud of him. And people are like, are you mad that you didn't stay?

I'm like, no, I'm not mad. Because on the way out, as I was upset that I had to go, I knew I needed to go. And at the time, as I think back, I probably shouldn't have gone back to the business because I also realized we did it once before. The second time wasn't the same as the first time and my heart wasn't in it. I'd been bitten by a different bug. And so even in that horrible moment of having to disappoint him, myself, my husband, all the things, the financial implications of all of that and failure. Oh, and I had to go eat crow and go back and work at Yahoo after I'd already left. That sucked. Right. Thank you, Yahoo, for bringing me back. I appreciate that was a gift. But eating crow with your ego, not fun.

What's up, everybody? I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes, and our guests consistently bring the heat. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday. And you can do so by gaining access to all of JBSales' content. All of their training, tips, techniques, tactics, and takeaways can be yours for $1 a day. $365 for the year gets you annual access to everything, including our private Slack channel for members only, which you get access to all of us directly 100% of the time, 24 hours a day. And then at the same time, you're going to get access to our biweekly Ask Me Anything sessions, where you can bring real deals to the table and get the help that you need where you need it.

This is very, very important. Sales reps that invest in themselves are often found at the tops of their leaderboards. Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL, one more time, is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guest for this week. I always say this, and I'd say this figuratively, but I really do think, literally, I think everybody needs to be literally punched in the face once in their life. Because you don't know how you're going to react. And I'll give you a quick analogy, and I mean this physically, but then it's happened to me in my business, is when I was a kid, right? I mean, I was a pretty decent size. I hit six foot pretty early, so I was a big kid.

And, you know, I was never a bully. I was always, like, cool with everybody else, but I always felt like I could kind of handle myself, right? I got in a fight one time, and I honestly, somebody punched me so hard in the face, and I fell down. And the emotions that go through that in that moment tell you exactly who you are. Because my first emotion was to cry like a baby. I mean, like, I'm a 16-year-old, you know, boy slash man, and I'm thinking, I got my, and I, and I literally, my first reaction was to sob like a child and call my mom, right? And that lasted about five seconds, and then immediately rage came over to me and said, wait a minute, no way, I've never been punched in my face before, you're not going to punch me, you're not going to knock me out.

And I immediately got back up and got back in the fight and got punched again and got knocked out, but that's a different story. But it shows you your character, and it's the same thing with business, right? If you don't get punched in the face, I mean, I'm not in that you and I are both in the self-starter, like we don't take funding, but it's funny to me how, like, one of the first questions that the VCs ask founders is, tell me about the last time you failed. And if there isn't a failure there, they don't give you money. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not going to fail with our money. We want to see you fail before that you have some perspective here. So whoever the sucker is that's going to give you that first round, good luck, right?

I just kind of did things. I'm an evolutionist. I'm not a stick a stake in the ground and go for it because this is my life's purpose. I'm more of a, all right, let's see how things go. And I got a direction I'm going, but I'm always open for opportunity. So life has kind of been, I've been fortunate. I don't want to say lucky because I do believe you make your own luck. I am very fortunate and very privileged for what I have been allowed the opportunity for, but I've worked my ass off to get here. That said, leaders, founders, people at different stages of their careers, what can you share with them or what do you share with them to find that out proactively? As opposed to how I think you and I have come to it reactively.

Is there a way you can do this earlier in your career or do you need 20 years of business experience, 40 years old, looking back 40 years and saying, holy shit, that went fast. Now I know, no, I don't, I don't think, I think experiences is, is certainly powerful, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. I think it's that we don't listen to ourselves because quite honestly, John, if I think back to that moment, that was really painful, where that was a sucker punch. It was a punch in the face. It was a kick in the gut. It was a kick in the buns. It was run over by a Mack truck, like all the things at once. And then humbling because I had to eat crow. That's hard to do. I also knew the second that I signed the Yahoo offer and I knew I was going to go back the first thing subconsciously.

And I didn't realize it until about a year ago. And I was like, I knew, I remember saying to myself, if you're going to do this again, I knew I was bitten by starting up something on my own for my own self, for my own. But I had to learn lessons. I had to recover. I had to recoup. So I think why I go back to that moment and why I bring this up to answer your question is I find most people are not in tune with themselves. They get caught up in what they should do, what especially and this is a gift for you and I when we came up, we didn't have social media. We didn't have all access to ridiculous rhetoric. That means nothing that's actually harmful. So like everyone's playbook or you can buy this course.

These are merely people that don't want to work for somebody else that have figured out a way of systemizing whatever they've learned. And just because they have a big social following does not mean that it's applicable to you. Maybe one of those chapters is applicable to you, but not the whole kit and caboodle and it can hurt you. And so that's that's the playbook. In my opinion, John, is we're not in tune with ourselves. We either want validation externally. We want a dopamine hit on LinkedIn that our stupid, horrible idea is crowdsourced by a bunch of other people that don't have any experience or expertise or competency that are just making you feel good about yourself. And it's that flywheel that you're perpetuating of bad decision making.

So my whole thing is and I this was my saving grace for everything and I have them all. And oh, my God, if I die, you have got not if when you've got to come to my house, John, you've got to. I'll tell you after this where it's stored. I have a chest full of every single diary, every single journal, every single everything in a chest. You need to burn it like you need to burn. You need to come. You need to burn it. I thought you were going to say you need to publish it. No, no, no, no. This goes back to like the pre-high school days of puberty and like, no, no. Oh, I would. No, I'm not burning that. If you're giving keys to your house, I am publishing every one of those. Don't you dare let me into that chest.

I mean, literally, like these are the things that you don't talk about when you get married, like all of your thing, you know, like all of the things, all the stupid shenanigans through my entire life. And that is my secret is and I've written about it. I've shared my methodology every single day. I journal and I have a system for this. And what I do is you're not allowed to look back. So then I take a highlighter after three to four weeks. That's my time period. And I look for the themes. And when we listen to ourselves, what's going on, what we like, what we don't like, because on the fly, if I coach you, if I'm your coach today and I say, John, you know, let's figure out your why. What do you like?

What don't you like? You're you're in the moment and you're like, oh, like it's like you just freeze for a second and you're not thinking thoughtfully. But when you give yourself the gift of looking back after you've truly just put pen to paper and you're asking yourself questions and you're not looking back and it's fresh every day of what's top of mind for you. You then get to see, is it that it's just a crappy quarter and you shouldn't leave because the grass isn't greener on the other side. You still need to water it where you are. Is it that you're just going through something? Is it that you've got external things that you've got to solve for that if you do, you're still okay? Or is it that moment for me where it's like I have had enough.

Now, the other thing to that is here's my journal. Right. Then I also have a scorecard. These are things that I've done in my life. Like this is not just like, oh, I created a system that I can sell to people. And by the way, I don't even sell this stuff. But on the flip side, it's then who I surround myself with. And I will tell you, John, the unfollow, the block, the mute, the www.getoutofmyfeed.com. I've been on a tear with that. I don't care how popular the person is. I don't want that rhetoric. So I'm fiercely protective over what I surround myself with and whom. So I don't want yes people, but I also don't want like jerks either. I have this kind of like sort of advisory group, as it were.

Of people that will shoot me straight, will kick me in the rear end, will point out blind spots to me, and they have carte blanche. And I think people are very intimidated by me because I'm very, very articulate in when I am thinking about things. And if I'm passionate about it, it sounds like I'm yelling when I'm not. So for anybody listening to this, I'm not mad at you. I'm just passionate about this. We're talking about my life. Yeah, it's the same thing with me. I always feel I'm like, I'm super passionate about it. And people are like, dude, calm down. I'm like, no, no, no. This is just how I communicate. I'm not mad. I'm like, I'm just fired up about this. Yeah, it's a good thing. You don't want it when I'm you, right?

Like nothing good is going to happen if that happens. But then having that insight and saying, these are the three things. So like I do this with my own therapist. Like these are the three things that happened from the last time that we talked. Here are the two things that you told me to do. I tried it. One of them sucked. One of them was awesome. Now what? And now I'm doing the actual work for myself, by myself, to myself, that helps myself versus being like, I read this book because somebody told me that it changed their life. I've read a lot of books that people have recommended and they did nothing for me. Literally. I've read them. That's why I don't like reading books. There's nine times out of 10, I get halfway through.

I'm like, this is a waste of my time. Can you just give me the Cliff Notes version of this? Like, what was the outcome? Great. Thanks. So, so it's, let me kind of dive into this as far as gut versus like strategy, right? And, and the difference between the two and how you leverage them. It sounds to me that journaling is a really interesting way to trust your gut, but not in the moment. So let me, let me rephrase that maybe by writing down everything that is literally happening to you and how you're feeling that moment. And then looking back on that, that is your gut. Your gut is telling you in the day that's happening, like, this is how I'm feeling right now. And then as you look for themes, you can start to trust that gut on, on decisions moving forward.

So I guess how do you balance the, my gut tells me, you said you went back to Yahoo, but as soon as you signed that, like in your gut, you were like, I'm going to do this again. I know I'm going to do this again. But sometimes, I mean, a lot of people, there's something there's about intuition. There's something about us as human beings, about the universe and all that other stuff that there's that, that's why that gut is there. But a lot of times it's not right. Um, so how do you, how do you follow your gut and maybe back it up with facts or how do you make decisions as it relates to facts and gut? Well, now you just got me geeked out because I do Reiki too. And it's funny that the parallels between what happens in Reiki and what happens in cognitive therapy, that they're the same.

So intuition and gut and all those things. Um, when I should preface this, when I'm journaling, yes, I allow myself to have some free form of like dear Amy and just writing a letter to myself of like all the nonsense that flies through my head. But I have a very particular system where I ask myself the same five questions every day. And those questions are what do I want to do today? So I start in the morning, like, what is it that I actually want to do? And that's very tactical, John. It's not just how my, how I feel. It's the stuff I got to get done. And then it's, then I come back at the end of the day. What did I do? What kicked my butt? What am I really, really proud of? And what did I leave behind?

Cause as an entrepreneur and a business owner, you know, this 24 hours in a day, dude, you've got other things going on, right? You have to, you have to say, I wish, I wish I was an octopus and I had like eight arms, you know, but like, but we're not. And it is, and here we are. It's the deprioritization of things. That's especially interesting to me. It either means I hate it. I don't want to do it. It's bigger than me and I need help. I don't know what I'm doing. So it's scary to me. So I won't do it. So see how it's not like how Amy feels. It's what in the world is actually happening every day. Because if I go back and I'm just like, I was supposed to do this big project and it made me feel overwhelmed.

What project? What was it? So like, see how it's, it's, I'm getting specific. So it's not just my gut. So you are tapping into what I am really, really interested in learning more about and on this journey for, and I think this will ultimately be my keynote that I come out with is the whole concept of energy management versus time management and the things that, and I've come up with this quadrant, right? Where it's, you know, what are your goals and priorities, right? And, and top is they help me achieve my goals. Bottom is they don't. Okay. Then there's energy. What gives me energy and what does not. And if you go through this exercise and you say, put everything in a bucket, right? So everything that's in the, gives you energy and helps you achieve your goals, go all in on, do as much as you possibly can.

Cause you love doing it and it's going to help you get to where you want to go. The stuff that does not help you, does not give you energy, but helps you achieve your goals, admin stuff, project work that you don't like doing compartmentalize as much as you can and, and, you know, segment. So it's like, I'm doing this for an hour. I'm just going to do this gross or eat the frog. People say I do the grossest thing in the morning and then get the rest of this stuff, right? The stuff that does not help you achieve your goals, but, uh, gives you energy. That's like hobbies. That's travel. That's for me, art and that type of thing. But the stuff that takes energy away and does not help you achieve your goals, cut that stuff and throw it away immediately.

And I mean that, and you said this people, technology, uh, ideas, activities, whatever it is, family. I'm sorry. There are certain family that just suck energy away from me in every way, shape and form. I'm not going to disassociate with them. I'm just not going to proactively engage with them. And so this concept of energy management, because that way I, I, I, I mean, I'll, I'll stay up and I'm sure you'll do the same thing. I'll, I'll stay up until two o'clock in the morning doing something because I like doing it because it gives me energy. And people like, oh man, you're still working at two o'clock in the morning at 46 years old with your own. I'm like, yeah, you know why? Cause it's not work for me.

I've loved doing this. Now there's other times where I'm like, oh God, I don't want to do this, but I have to get it done because okay. That's a different story. So how much do you, I mean, it sounds like you're very into the spiritual and the, and the connection with the kind of the universe, if you will. Right. Um, how much of that do you buy into as far as, uh, you know, how the universe gives us direction and, and I'll ask it in this way, how much of this do you think is actually free will versus what's happening because the universe is talking to us in a way and directing us in certain and pushing us in certain directions. Oh my gosh. Getting real. I mean, look at us today. Do I get stoned?

We can have a, we can take it to a whole nother level. What is happening? Uh, no, you know, the funny thing is, I don't, I don't know if I have the answer for that, but I've been on this Reiki journey for the last three years and it has changed my life and it is the best thing that I do because seriously, the things that come up there are the things. So there are different ways to do Reiki for me, my Reiki master. Um, we don't say one word to each other for an hour and a half. I am there. Not one word is spoken, not one word, 0.0 words. And then as soon as we're done, I always ask her and I feel things I'm not visual, but I feel things. So like all of a sudden I'll feel sick to my stomach for like 30 seconds and she'll be like, yeah, so I was working on this.

How, how did you feel? And I'm like, like I was going to barf and she's like, and here's what I'm getting. And the last Reiki session, I do it every other week. The last Reiki session that I had, there was a thing that happened, um, that was really profound for me and the way I was describing it. So when we're done, then we talk about what, what we were going through. And it's crazy to see, I always make her say first, I'm like, what'd you get? That's the very first thing that I asked her, like, what did you get? And she's like, why don't you ever tell me? I'm like, because I'm not sure if I still believe it. So you got to tell me what you got, you know? So it's like, but it's crazy because she was, she was sharing some things with me and I said to her for the first time, I feel like I was in tune with that.

And I've never been able to do that before. And I was telling myself as you were doing this. And she was like, what I want you to work on is instead of telling yourself, listen to yourself. And I was like, like, it was this, I mean, like every, like, like every goose bump is up and I'm like, yes, we don't listen to ourselves. We tell ourselves based on whatever else is happening. And I'm like, yeah. And for the first time I listened to myself, John, in that way, like literally it's going to like, every hair is up on the back of my neck. So do I think, I mean, I think that, I think we are here to learn lessons literally and figuratively and whether or not we decide to learn that lesson now or not, we're going to learn it.

The universe is going to make sure that we learn it. So yes, is some of that hard decisions? Sure. And some of it, it's going to happen anyway. And I do, do believe that. And I'm sure there's going to be somebody listening to this, rolling their eyes, being like going to troll me now for being a weirdo. I don't care. Cause you know what, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what is happening. And especially at Thursday night sales where so many people come and they're looking for guidance and they just are lost. Funny how, when I share some of this stuff, every time I say, here's my complete system to how I journal and the questions that I ask, let me know how it works. And they do it.

And they're like, oh my gosh, I figured it out. And I'll give you a story. When you start listening to the wrong people, a girl from Thursday night sales asked for some time. She's struggling three weeks ago. She was great. She was happy in her role. This is a horrible form of leadership, by the way. So any leaders of listening to this do not ever do this. Leader leaves, leaves in like a horrible way, burning all the bridges on the way out. And on the way out, he pulls her aside and he says, I'm not even acting as your boss right now because I'm no longer your boss because I'm leaving. I'm actually being your friend. You need to leave this company now. And she was like, well, why? And he's like, I can't tell you.

How dare you make your nonsense my issue when I'm totally good? I'm thriving. So now you know what happened? Got into her head. Now she's not happy. Now she's interviewing. She has three other offers. More money. What does she do? And I said, you were fine three weeks ago. And you made somebody else's narrative your reality. You actually have a really good opportunity. You have a founder that wants to hear you. You have a founder giving you an opportunity in a way that these other roles don't. Why would you let that jerk dictate your reality, pontificating what they're going through to you? That is horrible. So this is what I mean by, and to your point, it could be family. It could be social.

It could be a book. It could be an article. It could be whatever it is. It could be friends. There's a really important thing. A friend for a reason, a friend for a season, a friend for a lifetime. There's a reason why that old adage of you carry only a handful of people as you get older that you can really rely upon. Because life is seasonal, and the things and the people and the stuff that we surround ourselves with, it absolutely influences us. So that gut thing that we tend to mute, that is important because half the time when somebody gets themselves in trouble, they knew that they were already doing it. They just shut it down because somebody else told them it was okay. Yeah, I love that.

I mean, it's so funny. You know, my daughter, 11 years old, and she's having issues with her friends at school, and I'm trying to put her in perspective, and I'm like, sweetheart, I just want to give you a sense. Like, the friends that you have now are definitely, there's some of them that'll stay around, but there's others that you won't remember in 10 years, 15 years. College, there's not a single person that I stay in touch with from college. Not one. Not one. Guess what? My friends are all kids from high school, kids that I grew up with who know my core values, who know me no matter where I go. You know, I could not see him for 10 years, and I'll come back, and, you know, I'll die for you, you'll die for me type of stuff.

So you realize, you know, it's funny how we transition to quantity quality in our lives in general, right? Like, we do quantity, a lot of stuff, and then we start to figure things out, and then we start to get really, really focused on what makes us whole, what drives us, you know? And last thing I'll mention is this passion piece, you know, about finding, you know, I think one of the worst pieces of advice anybody has ever given to a kid coming out of college, is following your passion. I honestly think that's a terrible, terrible piece of advice, because you don't know what you're passionate about. I mean, if somebody said, find your passion, or I'm sorry, follow your passion, John, I'd be a stoner on the street, painting, you know, characters of people.

Like, you know what I mean? Like living in a tent. Like, find it, though, right? Find it. And then follow it. And I think there is a little bit of experience there. There's a little bit of just doing the job for a period of time that gets you there. But I think, you know, the point of our conversation here is there are things that you can do to be more purposeful. And I think that's what I'm trying to do right now is stop just kind of doing and be much more purposeful with where I'm going. Because I had a life, I mean, you know, dad passed about a year and a half ago. And that really shook me. That changed a lot of things as far as my job, my company, you know, what was important to me. And, you know, to be fair, for the past year and a half, two years, I've been kind of unsure of where I'm going next and what I'm doing next.

But, which is why I'm putting so much work right now into the why, my values, and those type of things to really make sure that I know what it is and I can be clear with it. I know my why. I can explain my why in a paragraph or two. I want to know exactly what my why is and then nail down those values and then live them moving forward here. Because otherwise, I'm just going to keep floundering. And so I think, you know, it sounds like you hit it at 40. I'm probably 46, 47 before I can start to really be purposeful here. But I'm looking forward to that next journey. And I appreciate your insights here because it's definitely has helped. Well, and it's never too late. And I will say there is something about there.

You don't in your own life, there's no skipping your own line. Right. So you can learn some lessons that we've learned to avoid them. But there's something about paying your dues. You said it. Find, take the experience. Find what your passion is. Unless, of course, like you grew up and out of the womb, you're like, I want to be a doctor. Your first toy was a stethoscope. And that, you know, like, great. Cool. Then you are, you are very clear on that. And that's amazing. But that's not the majority. And I think through the things that you do, look for those common themes of the stuff that lights up your soul. And the stuff that, that really makes you feel dead inside. And I will say at 47 years old and you at 46 years old, you and I both know this.

And especially with, I have not lost a parent yet. And I'm so sorry. I wish every time it comes up, like, I just want to crawl through the screen and give you the biggest hug. But when you start losing people and you have aging parents and family members, you are then very much reminded of how finite this life is and that it needs to matter on a deeper level. And so it's all of those things of the stuff you like, the stuff you don't like, and that energy thing of, like, wasting energy on things that just don't matter. It's like, if somebody trolls me on a post or there's something like that, it's like, I don't know you, you don't know me, I don't care. If you disagree with me, okay, okay, sure.

Awesome. But I really hope that out of all the things that we talked about, this is totally not what I was expecting today. And I'm so here for what we talked about, but that people have the confidence to actually listen to themselves instead of looking for validation from everybody else. The second that the wind blows and it gets hard, all of those people that you admired that you thought had your back, they don't. This is the point on that, and I know you know this one too, is because Simon Sinek, he said his whole infinite game, if you looked into this, like, I love that concept of the infinite game. Like, if you play a finite game, like a sporting event, you're trying to beat the other person, right?

I'm trying to beat you, there's a start, there's an end, and I win, you lose. And that is, okay, fine. But the infinite game is, you're just trying to stay in the game. So you just, which is life, right? You're just trying to stay in the game. So now it doesn't matter what you do today. It doesn't matter what my quote unquote competition does this week, this month, this year, the next five years, because I'm in this for the long run. And I think that infinite game, once you give up on comparing yourself to other people, caring about what other people actually think of you, understanding your core values and that you are a good person and you are trying and you're not trying to screw anybody over.

And look, if you are the other type of person, I don't know what to tell you. But once you have that confidence, you know, just you can live a much more meaningful and purposeful life and enjoy it as opposed to being stressed out by all the stuff that really ultimately just doesn't matter at the end of the day. I mean, I don't, have you ever read, by the way, real quick, have you ever read this book, 4,000 Weeks? No. Okay, I got recommended. So it's 4,000, Tim Ferriss actually recommended, it's called 4,000 Weeks, Time Management for Mortals. And you know why it's called 4,000 Weeks? Because that's, and you brought, this is full circle in our conversation. At 40 years old, you're halfway through.

At 80, at 80, that's 4,000 weeks that you have, that you've lived, right? So we all have, give or take 4,000 weeks. What are you going to do with every single one of them? And so it talks more about energy management versus time management, you know, doing things that are purposeful. And so I'm really excited to, it's by Oliver Berkman. I'm really excited to dive into this. Well, and it goes back to, it's the, the infinite game. I love that. Anything that Simon Sinek has read, said, done, I'm reading it. But it's also, I had a separate conversation on a different podcast and this guy, like I had this realization of part of what's made me, me, and I don't rely on decks or features or any of that stuff.

And I never have. I grew up in services. That was like the first thing. But the second thing was, he said, he's like, here's the deal. I've always thought about it as building a pipeline for a lifetime. And I'm like, and so it's like that scarcity versus abundance mindset, the infinite mindset, the understanding that if you're going to do something, it is a big, small world. And it needs to, like, all the gimmicks, all the ick, all the growth, like it just, if there is really 4,000 weeks, which now I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to have to process that. It's like, what are you, what are you doing? And it's funny because a lot of the time I get invited onto a podcast and I'm like, what are we going to talk about?

And people are like, just come on and talk. And it's like, you and I do that because I've got that trust with you. But if I don't, what's the point? Like, what am I going to do? So I just think it's like the stopping of the asking. If you don't know your why, then start asking yourself this. So what? So what? Why do I do this? Why do I not do this? So what? Why does it matter? And that starts kind of crystallizing some of these things because I just see so many people floundering that are lost and they don't know. And so they're going to these places where the advice is just super self-serving and it's the stuff that doesn't work. But because it pops, because it has a million followers or whatever the deal is, it's like, but that's not awesome necessarily for you.

So these are choices. These are big choices. They become bigger as time goes on. And I didn't know we were going to get so damn deep today, John, but here we are. This is why I like picking a topic and letting them see where it goes. Because, you know, I just, you know, I've committed to one thing going back to energy management and time management. The one thing I've committed to this year, there's no question about it, is only talking to and surrounding myself with people who give me energy, who are positive influences. And I think there's a lot of choices on my life as opposed to the naysayers, the negatives, the people who are always bitching and complaining. You can find those a dime a dozen.

It's the people that have a good outlook on life, not overly rosy. I'm not trying to sit here and say, like, we don't have problems. Everybody does. But, you know, giving energy and positive influences are two criteria that I am sticking by as far as the conversations I have. And, Amy, obviously, you fill both of those buckets all the way full and more. So thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Right back at you, John. Thank you. I mean, it's always a treat. I just appreciate that we know each other and that we can actually keep it real in earnest, whether our camera's on or off. This is just how we roll. And so this is a gift. And I appreciate you. And thank you for the front row seat, too.

Seeing you do some work. I mean, like, welcome to the club. My hotline's on. My hotline is on. I'm here for this. I am actively working as we speak. And I'm working it out in front of everybody, hopefully in front of everybody else so they can maybe pick some stuff up along the way that might help them, too. So it's a journey for the rest of us and myself included. You're not alone. It's all good. Amy, any place you want to point people to the podcast? Is it the Thursday Night Sales? Talk to me a little bit about where you want people to meet up with you. It's all of the above. I'm on LinkedIn, starting conversations that I hope are thought-provoking like this to matter, not just to do some stupid nonsense.

It's Thursday Night Sales. I have a podcast as well. So, I mean, look, I'm not hard to find. For those of you listening, it's VOLAS. Look her up on LinkedIn. She's all over the place, spreading positivity and knowledge across the board. So, Amy, always love talking to you. Let's make it so it's not another year and a half for us to have this conversation again. And we can have it off of because, like you said, I think regardless of whether the microphone's on or not, I love talking to you. So let's keep it a little bit more frequent, all right? Thank you. Right back at you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, everybody. And look, thank you so much for listening. And as I always say, no matter how bad your day is going, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Because if you made somebody smile today, you know you had a good day. The world means a lot more of that. So thank you all very much for listening, and I'll see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads, and I can't thank you enough. To keep the momentum going, if you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it. In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM, and I will get right back to you, I promise.

And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year, and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses. I'll be delivering live training the first and second week of every single month with our two marquee courses, filling the funnel and driving a close to anybody who wants to join, and it includes membership in our on-demand platform with weekly AMAs. So you can go to jbarrows.com slash open to check out the details. Thanks again, and have a great day.