Christie Hunter Arscott: Redefining Risk and Failure

Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And Christy Hunter-Ascott is without question one of those people. She's an award-winning advisor, speaker, and author of a new book coming out called Begin Boldly, How Women Can Reimagine Risk, Embrace Uncertainty, and Launch a Brilliant Career. She's also a Rhodes Scholar and has spoken to places like the World Economic Forum, Harvard Business School, Oxford, and has experienced working with corporate clients all around the world on how to create a more diverse workforce.

This conversation was fascinating to me on so many levels. We talked about things like imposter syndrome and how I actually had it in speaking with her as a Rhodes Scholar, but also how to harness it and leverage it in your career. We then dove into risk and why many women are risk adverse and how we need to reimagine it. One of my favorite quotes she said about how to change your perspective on risk and failure is to ask yourself, will this define me or refine me? Which helps you start to look at risk and failure in a more positive way. She then talked about building risk tolerance through curiosity and provides a ton of structure and templates on how to do it. And then we also talked about the myth of the work-life balance concept and how she thinks we need to focus more on time and energy management, which I completely agree with.

Christy is not only an extremely intelligent and insightful person, but she's an absolute pleasure to speak with. I could have talked to her for hours, but I needed to cut it off, which is why I am going to highly recommend you pick up her book when it comes out, because she has stories and templates and exercises that aren't just for women. They're for anyone looking to build a brilliant career and create more diversity in their lives and in their organizations. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. What's happening, make it happen family. Big shout out to our partners today. Gong, Proposify, Vidyard and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes.

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Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. All right, Christy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us here. Thanks so much for having me. Christy, I got to admit something. We're going to talk about this today as far as imposter syndrome. And I suffer from imposter syndrome, and I am suffering from it right now. For the Rhodes Scholar aspect of what you bring to the table and your journey, I am fascinated with it. And I want to start, we're going to talk about, I mean, you got a great book coming out called Begin Boldly. And I want to dive into some of those topics that you're writing about here, but the audience here, walk us through your rather unique journey to where you are today.

And I want to understand what drove you to apply to be a Rhodes Scholar. And then that shift you took, because one of the really interesting things that I read is, you know, most times when you go to a Rhodes Scholar, you know, you get to be a lawyer or whatever it is after that. And you decided to go, you know, into business, do your thing. And so could you walk us through kind of how you got here, and specifically that Rhodes Scholar, that decision there? Yeah, no problem. And don't worry, I still had imposter syndrome, still do. I mean, just to side note, before I tell you the journey, I used to tell my mom, you know, I'd be at Rhodes House in Oxford because they have this gathering space for all the Rhodes scholars.

And I'd be downstairs, you know, trying to finish my women's studies papers in this little study area. And the person next to me was running their business that was focused on AIDS research in Kenya, writing a dissertation and a book and solving X. So I constantly said, gosh, I just need to pass these exams. I think we all deal with it in different ways. But a little bit about my background. So I did my undergrad at Brown, and I did political science, but I did a lot of work around gender and inclusion and sexuality and gender constructs. And that's really for me, although my journey and interest in this started far sooner, even as a child. I felt like it really came to the fore at that time.

And it was interesting because the Rhodes Scholarship wasn't fully on my radar. But when it did come on, it's something that reminds me. I actually haven't been asked this before, John. So it's really interesting because it does relate to my book. Instead of saying, like, what's the worst that could happen? I kind of just asked myself, what's the best that could happen? And could I handle both scenarios? And even getting past your own inner critic and imposter syndrome to tell people that you're applying and get those six or seven references and have people check your essays. I mean, that for me was even a mental shift. Like, and could I get there? And so it's interesting, though, when I was applying, I really wanted to continue on this trajectory of looking at gender and women's issues.

And I was awarded it and got into the program to study women's studies. And at the time, a newspaper article came out and it was like, Christy Hunter-Arstead has won the Rhodes Scholarship. But the leading sentence was, while most Rhodes Scholars go to Oxford to study medicine or law, she's doing this. And it almost was a, it was this headline they were running with as if asking me, like, why? Why are you doing this? It's almost like a backhanded compliment, right? Exactly. But I knew that that's really what I wanted to study and focus on at the time. So it was just an interesting journey. And I recently wrote a blog post that, you know, at the time it was questioned, what are you going to do with this?

What are you going to do? And a lot of people said to me, like, gender and race issues are things that were the issues of our parents' generation, not ours. And since that time of me kind of graduating from Oxford, it's come into the fore even more how visibly broken the world is along gender and race lines and how much work we still have to do. And I wrote this post recently and I said, you know, what used to be questioned no longer needs to be qualified because I think we all know that there's a lot of work to do in this space. Well, related question. Have we made progress in your opinion? I mean, because, and I say that because I think the major things you can look at and say, okay, I mean, obviously recently we've, I think we've taken a step back in more ways than one, but you know, a lot of people who aren't paying attention could say, no, come on, it's not nearly as bad as it used to.

Like we're like that, like, so from your perspective, um, are we making slight progress? Are we, are we going backwards right now? Um, and, and right now with where we are. Hard question for me to answer without getting too emotional during these times. If I'm honest with you, I think, um, where the world is, but particularly where the U S is, um, is a very difficult thing just to even, um, talk about right now. And I would say to anyone on the line that has women on your sales teams and your organizations think about as well, potentially great employers are thinking about the psychological and emotional impact of things on their employees and having real and honest discussions around that. And that's the same thing as we've seen kind of what's been happening in the U S, um, in a much more visible way over the past few years, although it's always gone on, it's been kind of brought to the forefront of public, um, and media attention along race lines as well.

We have to think about of the impact of the fatigue of people that are underrepresented positions and just what that looks like. So that's one thing I think is really important to share. And it is hard to be great at selling anything when you're mentally and emotionally fatigued to feel like your basic rights are at risk. And so I think, um, just taking that into consideration and wellbeing for people would be a really important thing in regards to your question. Um, have we made progress? I think it's difficult because it's, there's so many different elements of what progress looks like. And there's some in careers. There's some in the business world, there's some on a basic level of autonomy over your body.

There's others, you know, in dynamics, I want to remain positive though. And I will tell you where I think we've made progress is related to my earlier comment that when I went to Oxford, I felt like I still had to justify why I was studying women's studies at this point in my life and my career and why this was worth it. And I was almost viewed as this kind of outlier. And now I think gender and race issues are much more mainstream than they were before. And for better or worse, how we got here is difficult. But if there is any silver lining, it is a much broader based awareness that this is real and tangible and impacting so many people and that awareness then brings informed action in a way I don't think we may have seen before.

So it is encouraging. I mean, I think the, the, having the conversations out loud, um, it's the same thing with mental health too, right? It's like, you know, we're starting to have the conversations out loud, whether certain people are listening or not, that's a different story. Um, but I think it's the, you know, what, what can you control and, you know, and how can you focus on the things to your point of all the chaos that's out there? Like, how can you kind of inch forward to make a difference in somebody else or give them a different perspective or give somebody else a break? You know what I mean? Like I just faced this the other day with my wife, like we were having an argument and I was, you know, and I used to travel all the time and she was home and she was trying to build her business, but she was taking care of our daughter and I was traveling and she allowed me to do that.

And now I'm home and I work from home and she's traveling more and I'm trying to do my, my, my best to, to, um, make up for what I was. Right. But I was like, I'm doing all this stuff. And she's like, are you shitting me right now? She's like, are you seriously trying to compare what you like? He's like, Oh, good for you. You make dinner. Good for you. And I'm like, and it was like one of those things where it was in the moment for me, I was very frustrated about a very specific scenario that happened that day. But then when she macroed it out for me, I was like, Oh shit. I'm like, yeah, sorry. I need that reminder every once in a while. And I think we all do is just at least hopefully being conscious of it, but also being, you know, uh, proactive about it to address it as opposed to just, it's like going back to, you know, it's no longer okay to say, well, I'm not a racist.

You know what I mean? So therefore it's like, no, you have to, you have to do something about it right now. Like you have to, if, if you really are not a racist, you need to go do something proactive to address this. You can't just sit back on the sidelines in my opinion anymore. Yeah. I mean, and we're all biased. That's just the nature. I mean, bias comes with, um, all of these bad connotations. And, but in reality, I mean, bias, there's these stats that say like, we receive 11 million bits of information every moment and we can only process 40. So we're looking for mental shortcuts and that's all it is, is a mental shortcut. But going back to you and your wife, I love that story. And actually it's good timing.

So last week, um, a new movie came out and I don't know if you've seen this, if you haven't had this individual on your show, you definitely should. Um, her name's Eve Rodsky and she wrote this book called Fair Play and it's all about, um, creating more equitable homes, um, and dynamics in terms of how we share kind of household tasks. And she talks about how we don't go to the she-fault, which is the she-fault is sort of the default, right? And so, um, her and Reese Witherspoon's company, um, Hello Sunshine and the First Lady of California, Jennifer Stiebel Newsom, um, put out this Fair Play movie, which captures a good bit of a documentary, some of the things you were just talking about with great, well-intentioned couples, just making these, you know, little mistakes.

And, and, and then they, they become patterns that we don't realize are causing, you know, women as a whole to be held back. So it's really fascinating because we have to hit this in so many levels. And that's why it was hard to answer your question of like, where are we? Because some is legal, right? And there's people working on policies and processes and legal rights, right? Then there's at home, what does gender division of roles look like? Then there's also in the workplace, what does it look like? So there's so many different facets of, uh, looking at women in the workplace and in our societies overall. I'll tell you one of my proudest moments as a, as a business owner here was one of my, um, one of my trainers, right?

She, I, we, she was from an existing customer, right? She came on board here and she was a leader there. She was a manager and everything else. But a year after coming here and working, she goes, I have to, John, I have to tell you something. It's taken me this long to detox and realize the environment that I was in because I was so indoctrinated into the patriarchal right component. She's like, even though I was a manager and a leader, I was the one taking the notes. I was the one getting coffee. I was the one consoling somebody who was, and I was, and she's like, and I came here and we have some really flat organization and everything. She's like, and I look back at what I was part of and I'm almost ashamed about like not doing it, but I was, I didn't know any better.

And she's like, now she's like, I got a voice. I can, you know, I can scream at the mountaintops. I don't have to worry about it. I'm not getting people coffee. I'm not the one taking notes. You're the one taking notes. And she's like, I just wanted to say thank you. And I was like, and it was, it was sad, but very proud at the same time. Cause I'm like, oh man, like it took you a year to detox from that. And you didn't even know it. Yeah. And those are really, I mean, the technical term for them are like micro inequities and it's looking at who gets the coffee, who's taking the notes, all of those things. You actually brought up something fascinating and that's something that I actually do sessions on with companies and work on their strategies, but isn't explicitly the micro inequities piece spoken to in my book.

But I wanted to also share a couple other things that just came to mind as you were telling that story. So one was years ago, there was this four part series. I think it was four part in the New York times. And it was by Adam Grant, who is a professor out of Wharton, organizational psychologist and Sheryl Sandberg. And the title of one of the articles was Madam CEO, will you please go get my coffee? And it talked about the division of office housework in the workplace. And then years ago, when I was working with a company, actually talking about this with their CFO and he was saying, we were looking at the micro inequity listing and we were saying like, pay attention to who's getting what roles and who's doing the office housework.

And he told this story in front of his entire company. And he said, years ago, our chief general counsel for the entire company was a woman. And this is no small job, right? I mean, she's running a global organization as a lawyer and he always asked her to take the notes. And he said, in my mind, I thought she just takes great notes and she's the lawyer. So I'm going to ask her to. And then he said, years later, she got up and gave a speech about how she hates giving notes and taking notes. And so he looked back and he really had this reflection of sometimes we don't realize these things. And one thing I do mention in my book, a workaround in terms of these things is, you know, rotating office tasks versus asking for volunteers.

Those are the kind of things that really ensure more equity versus the same people putting themselves forward. Yeah, that was actually something that came out screaming to me. We did a, I did a webinar called We Need to Talk. And it was about the bro culture in sales. And it was, there was a, there was a, I don't want to say his name. Everybody knows I hate this guy, but he was up on stage and he was in my, Grant Cardone, screw it. He, he, he was him and he was doing his thing and he was talking all this and he was literally talking to his wife. Like she was a piece of meat. Like, Oh, look at that. I own that blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And I lost it. And I did a post. I was like, guys, we need to cut the shit here on this bro culture.

And then what happened was it took off. Right. And so myself, Lori Richardson, um, Trish Bertuzzi and, and Casey Jones, we got on a webinar and we said, we need to talk, but we didn't want to preach at people. And so we did this survey and we said, Hey, it's a, it's an anonymous survey. We want you to put in here. What, what questions do you have that you're afraid to ask, right? In your, in your environment, what scenarios that are not obvious that are examples of some of this stuff. And then what are some positive things you've seen that make a difference, right? When I read through the examples, pretty much it came down to, look, if I complained about every sexist, ridiculous thing that happens throughout the day, I'd be labeled as a complainer.

But the problem is all these little micro things they build up. And then one thing that doesn't seem really all that big of a deal sets me off. And now I'm emotional now I'm, and it, and it's an emotional over some ridiculous thing, but it's because I'm about to explode for this. And I, and any sales leader that I talked to or any leader I talked to, male leader that thinks they don't have a problem. I'm like, just do me a favor. Just go read that list of examples and tell me that you don't think that happens in your organization. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So this is your, your example is fascinating because one thing is we have to realize it's not just men perpetrating this on women, it's women on women, it's within races.

So we're not saying all, you know, it's a, it's a collective issue, right? But when I have my sessions with companies, there's a listing of micro inequities and I ask them, you know, what, you know, how many times have you been on the receiving end of this? And how many times have you been on the giving end? And I get people to do a reflection, but it's little things that you would never think. It's like, you know, overlooking a calendar invite, um, and not recline it's, you know, someone writes you a long email and then you come in for a meeting and you're like, well, what did your email say? It's giving actionable feedback to people you relate to and vague to others. It's, it's, I like John, I have an affinity for John, we both like podcasts, we both like sales.

I'm going to give John some great feedback when he messes up. John's just a good guy. But Christy, I told you, we took a chance on her. My bias has been reaffirmed. So it's all of these little things. It's talking about things at the beginning of meetings that will only relate to certain people. It could be a sports game or sports team. It could be having kids and there's a lot of single, you know, childless people in the room. So this is where those kinds of things come up. And once you see that, you think, gosh, we all do this at certain times. And there's this image on the front of a book and it's, um, this, you know, pin double with all of these pins in it. And I think it's such a good example, John, because it talks to what you're saying, which is these seem insignificant when taken alone, but taken in aggregate over time, they can make the difference between you losing an employee or keeping someone engaged and active because there are these little pins every day until someone says, you know, I can't take it anymore.

Outside of like going through a program or, you know, sitting down and going through that exercise, for instance, how does somebody who doesn't think they have a problem with it and is well-intentioned, are there simple things that, that we can do? I mean, I'm a big notes guy. Like I'll put sticky pads, sticky notes all over my, to remind myself, don't like, I got, I mean, I got this tattoo, literally I have this tattooed on my arm to remind myself what privilege is. Right. So what are some things that, that all of us can do to, to, to start to open up our eyes to those mini inequity piece things? Yeah. Um, I mean, there's so many great books. I mean, I couldn't give you an articles. I could give you a whole list.

Um, there's been some great, um, pieces that are a short read in HBR, which I really appreciate because they're, um, very tactical and action-based and I'm trying to remember the one, um, it's something around great managers, but I can send it to you afterwards in case it's something that your network would appreciate, um, but one thing I really encourage leaders to do is, um, not get defensive, but take a step back and ask yourself, do my outcomes match my intentions? That one question, do my outcomes match? My intentions can transform your leadership style in your organization. Give me an example. Because in my 15 plus years of working with leaders in the inclusion space, almost all of them have great intentions.

They're generally good people that care about their people, want to build thriving organizations, want to create business results and a great culture, but their outcomes are lagging. But when you tell me you care about inclusion, but you've only had one female in your partnership for, as a professional services firm for 60 years, then there's a gap. And then the question is, why does that gap exist and how do we close it? So it's the same thing individually. Like if our outcomes around fitness or finances or anything aren't matching our intentions, then we need to isolate why and figure out how to fix it. And I view that as one of the most important questions leaders can ask themselves. What do you tell leaders that say it's just, you know, it's just too hard.

So let's use the easy examples of, yeah, I want to be a more diverse organization, but no women apply for my jobs. We don't get any people of color who apply. I mean, I post on LinkedIn. I put it on Indeed. Like we've tried to, so how do you break that mentality? Because I see that a lot. Like, hey, I can only do so much, which is untrue. You know, we can always do more, but it's a mentality of, I try, you know, I got other things going on. I got other priorities in my organization. Yes, that's important. And yes, I've told my team to make sure that we're diverse and make sure you're creative with hiring, but we just don't get the candidates, for instance. Yeah. I hear that all the time. So one of the most common things that I hear is that, and that's also because I work with financial services companies, insurance, reinsurance, tech, you know, and I've heard the same line used irrespective of industry.

And so that, to me, is always fascinating. One thing I've shown in sessions I've run with executives before is this cartoon, and it says, really great job supply here. And behind them is someone who's struggling with a disability and, you know, in a wheelchair. Someone who is a larger individual, someone who is holding their kid and attached. And then the doorway would only fit someone like you, John. And so it says, really great jobs apply here, but no one outside of that door can actually fit through that doorway. And I think that that cartoon kind of summarizes it in certain ways. So are you creating jobs and profiles and roles that are only going to attract one kind of individual? And where is the bias embedded?

So I'll work with companies thinking about, like, what is the language that is used in your job at? And that's a huge thing in sales. So sometimes the language, you can use these platforms and analysis that they go through, and they'll look at gendered words. And if it's swaying too much to a very, very male, masculine-focused job, you're less likely to get female applicants. Crush your quota, you know, like that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is you have to look at where is your reach? I mean, just saying anyone can apply. So I always say one of the biggest misconceptions is equal access equates to equal opportunity. And that's one of the biggest misconceptions that I see because just because you say anyone can apply doesn't mean that you've actually even reached those people kind of in your outreach.

So sometimes it's more targeted. And then once you get into the interview process, someone might say, well, these people applied, but they just weren't as qualified. But there are so many things that come in in the interview process where it's unintended bias. And one of my favorite examples is from some of the top U.S. orchestras in the 1970s. And you might have heard of this story. It's pretty well known at this stage. And there were about 10% female musicians in these top orchestras. And they said at the time in the 1970s, you know, how are we going to change this? And by the 1990s, most of them had 30%. And so I always ask, you know, the companies that I'm working with, I'll say, you know, why do you think this change happened?

And some people will say, well, you know, maybe they changed the makeup of the orchestra. So more people were playing harp than bass and more women play harp and all this. Anyways, the study says that what they did was put a curtain down for auditions. And let me be clear, the selection panel for the musicians, the selection panel were men and women, not just men. So this is a mixed gender panel. And in their mind, their intention, we want the best musicians for these orchestras, right? But their outcomes were lagging because there's a bias on what makes a musician, what makes a performer, what makes a top person in an orchestra. So there's also part of this study where they said when they first did it, they didn't notice a difference in the makeup.

And it was because people could hear the click the clock of women's shoes coming across behind the screen. Once they took the shoes off, they noticed the uptick. So that one simple design change. So for organizations, it might be blind resume reviews. It might be removing some indicators. So those are the things that we can think about more from an organizational perspective. So that would be fascinating to do blind interviews. Like not just blind resume reviews, right? Because I can also have the name, like that's the other thing is like name, if your name sounds a certain way versus sounding another way, right? But I think it would be because, you know, a lot of sales is body language and, you know, tonality and those type of things.

But body language is a lot. And also my biases come into play when I see who you are and what's in your background and where you live and all those different things. And so I make assumptions about you based on certain things that I see that to your point of the brain making shortcuts. So actually, I think that might be a pretty cool tactic for somebody, for sales leaders out there or leaders out there who are looking to higher diversity, you know, increased diversity is just don't turn on the camera, right? And see what happens. I'd be fascinated to see that study. Let's chat about risk here a little bit. You write about it in your book and you talk about reimagining risk. You said also that you were very risk adverse, like growing up, you were very risk adverse.

So where did that click for you that you decided to reimagine risk, right? Because I think you said somewhere, I forget what, fearing risk versus seeking risk. Right? Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about your journey of being risk adverse versus then saying, I'm going to embrace this. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I think as a child, you know, I wasn't quite as risk averse as I was kind of in my early twenties when I entered my career, but it's interesting. One thing that impacts and it's particularly impacts women and it definitely impacted me in my teen years was this fear of failure and this quest for perfection. And since the work of Carol Dweck, the world-renowned Stanford psychologist who wrote Mindset Onwards, we've seen a lot of work about young girls.

And so if Christine and John are the same age, and let's say we're, you know, preteens and you make a mistake on a test, let's say you get enough and I get enough. I'm more likely to say, I am a failure. And you are more likely to say, I failed and failure is data. What can I do to get better? And so that gender difference from a really young age is something that I think comes into play when we talk about risk-taking, that failure is not fatal. And it's the identity, the outcome identity conflation that happens more in women. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead. No, that's fine. The reason my brain is because my daughter right now is like, she's here and I'm wondering like, about society, about us, about me, about parenting, I'm desperately trying to get her to understand that failing is awesome.

Like we celebrate failure. We, we, we're like, that's how you learn. As long as you get up and you try again and you learn from it, it's not a failure period. But she's still definitely afraid to try something that she is, that she, like she goes, she does this, she'll, she'll look at something and if she thinks she can be good at it, she'll do it. And she'll do it to the point where she's like, okay, I got it. And then she thinks she's a master at it. Like she doesn't go deep on it because she doesn't want to go to that next level that takes her to push her to that next level. But if she doesn't think she's going to be good at it, she, she won't even try. And it's that fear of failure. Even though I've been preaching to her since she was even younger, it's okay.

I want you to fail. I'm going to celebrate your failures. Why, why is it from a society standpoint, outside of like parents and some of the things obviously that we do, that we have biases on that we don't even know, is there something inherent in our society that, that creates that? It's hard. Again, I'm going to say it's multifactorial because there's so many different studies on like nature and nurture and what we do. And you're done, you're doing all the right things, right? There's, um, there's a lot of work out there on growth mindset and there's these great, um, journals called, I think they're called growth mindset journals that are for girls who are younger to really help cultivate that.

I think as a society though, um, one thing that I've realized is that in many cases, women and even more so women of color face disproportionate, um, backlash for risk taking gone wrong. And so part of that, I'll, I'll give you an example. Um, but, but I think that starts younger than I've even looked at in my research. It's not a coincidence, but then we're scared to take a risk because we're facing this backlash. So a perfect example is there's been studies out of Harvard. Hannah Reilly Bowles did some work on this that looked at when women negotiate and men negotiate their salaries. Women are more likely to have the author rescinded altogether. Right. Um, so that is an example of a risk gone wrong.

And then we say, well, if women are negotiating less, why do we blame them? Right. Um, there's other things that I talk about in some of my work, which is this affinity bias. So again, we use it to confirm biases. So I'll give an example. If someone has an affinity for you and not for me, and you mess up, they're more likely to do kind of what I said before. John's a good guy. Let's give him another chance. If I mess up, it's more likely to confirm an existing bias that women just aren't cut out for sales. I told you this. So we're looking for things to confirm our existing biases. So these are some of the things that happen throughout our lives. And so I can't explain every single aspect, nature, nurture, reactions to this.

However, I know that there's a lot that goes on, but my whole focus of my book is this shouldn't detract us from taking risks. It just means we need to be more intentional and strategic when we do it. What's up, everybody? I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity. On these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heat. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday. And you can do so by gaining access to all of JB sales content. All of their training tips, techniques, tactics, and takeaways can be yours for $1 a day. $365 for the year gets you annual access to everything, including our private Slack channel for members only, which you get access to all of us directly 100% of the time, 24 hours a day.

And then at the same time, you're going to get access to our biweekly ask me anything sessions where you can bring real deals to the table and get the help that you need where you need it. This is very, very important. Sales reps that invest in themselves are often found at the tops of their leaderboards. Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL, one more time, is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guests for this week. So, because you brought up Sheryl Sandberg. So, I found this fascinating. Lean in, okay? I remember being at Dreamforce and Sheryl up on stage talking to Mark Benioff, talking about her book, Lean In.

My wife was with me. And my wife's a Sicilian, Swedish. She's fire. Like, she's, like, everything about it, right? And she's like, lean in. She's like, fuck that. She's like, stand up, right? And I remember, like, my wife having this, like, wait a minute. Forget about leaning in for a second. That's a little bit more passive than I think we should be right now. But what was really more fascinating to me was when Sheryl Sandberg almost had a mea culpa on when her husband died. And she realized, wait, going back to your point of risk, I was speaking from a white privilege, white female who had a husband who was massively supported. And that black single mom with three kids, they can't lean in because the risk factor of them getting fired is not worth them leaning in.

Yes. And so, John, you brought up a really interesting point because that is true. But I also heard something else years ago when I was working for Deloitte Consulting in the U.S. and Lean In came out. I went to this Future of Work conference and there were African-American women in the room that were pretty much like, you know, this is ridiculous. We've been leaning in our whole lives. And just telling us that the solution is leaning in is not enough. And I think it's interesting because Sheryl Sandberg, like any great leader, has refined her viewpoints and her data as we progress. And I think, though, we have to allow space and grace for people to do that. Because, again, bias is based on our own lens and our own experiences and people grow.

And so when we talk about cultivating a culture of risk for women, her putting her viewpoint into the world, me putting my viewpoint into the world, these are things that are risks and our viewpoints, if they haven't been refined in five years, we're not doing well as intellectual, thoughtful people that are trying to contribute to this world. So to Sheryl, I mean, I think that, yes, it took her getting some of this to kind of get there. But it's fascinating when we do this kind of work, it's so important to look at the intersectionality of identities and the impact that has. And let me just be clear, my book is not women take risks, be bold, and that's all you need. It is the world reacts differently to us than men.

This is particularly hard if you're from another underrepresented group. But here's some formulas and methods that are specifically calibrated to you so that we don't have to make the choice of risk and get backlash or play it safe and uphold the status quo. We can risk and risk in a really smart, intentional way and then get the support systems that we need to still build bold and brilliant careers. So let's talk about that because I've always said that I'm not like the ultimate risk taker, right? Like my buddy Chris, who works with me now, like he's the eat ramen noodles, live in mom's basement, like throw it all to the wind and try it out, see what happens, right? Well, we're 46 now, so he's not that risky.

He's got a wife and kids. But I'm definitely, especially early in my career, I'm a calculated risk taker where there has to be a couple of pieces in place, but I don't overanalyze it. I'm like, okay, I think my superpower is I have the ability to kind of assess the situation. And with very limited data points, I can usually make a pretty good decision that prevents a slight amount of risk but takes a certain amount of risk. So I don't necessarily have a formula for that, though. What are some of the structural things from a thought process standpoint on how to switch that mindset on risk and how to take calculated risks that you work with women on? Yeah, so one thing is this treating risk-taking as a ritual.

So one thing I state in my book is that we often overinflate the impact of one large risk and underestimate the impact of smaller courageous acts taken consistently over time. And so I encourage people to think about your career like an investment portfolio. And you're not just going to make one big investment and then leave it. You're going to make continual small investments over time that then will hopefully have compounding returns. We also want to diversify, right? And so I think sometimes risks are harder to do when we think they're the be-all, end-all. This is the one big, well, I hope this writing this book and putting this out into the world isn't the one big risk of my career. I hope I have a lot more after this.

So I think once you think about it like that, it becomes a little bit easier. And so I have this model where it's intentionally simple so that everyone from your daughter to your colleagues to whoever can use it. And it's risk, reward, refine, repeat. And the idea is this is a ritual, a mantra for living. You assess whether you want to take a risk. You look at the rewards. And failures are rewards, going back to what you're talking about from your daughter, as long as we have the right mindsets and methods to harness those insights to get us further. And then we also then look at refine. And I say, are we going to look at the outputs of risk-taking? And will we let that? This is the question I love.

Will we let that define us or refine us? And I always think, so I got enough. It's not going to define me. It's going to refine me. I lost my job. It's not going to define me. It's going to refine me. And how? And then how am I going to repeat? And then the cycle starts again. So looking at risk-taking is much more of, I am a risk-taker. This is part of my identity. This is an ongoing process in my life. It makes it a lot easier. And also, you talk a lot about the best thing you can do is take risks early in your career. Because that's when the risk factors are lower. You don't have a family. You don't have a house. You don't have a mortgage. And I tell this to kids coming out of school all the time.

I'm like, you're 20s. Do everything. Fail at everything. Try everything out. So in your 30s, you can kind of pick a lane and say, OK, this is what I'm good at. I mean, is it a simple mindset of just starting slow, starting with smaller risks? Or do you think that that person who's slightly risk-adverse, they did college. They did it the way they were supposed to. They got their degree in whatever it was. They're getting out there. And they're just not. They're feeling a little bit held back or whatever. Do you suggest they start by compounding those risks and doing it as an experiment? Or do you say, no, screw it. Early, take the biggest risk because you're going to see what happens. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I talk about is how taking smaller risks and starting early will push you, propel you further than a consistent choice to play it safe because you just don't learn by playing safe, right?

But there's a couple of different ways we can approach this. So if someone feels, if someone seems risk-averse, one thing I could encourage them to do is start with these more what I call micro-courageous acts, right? Micro acts of courage, which are instead of being like, OK, I'm scared of speaking. Let me get up and talk in front of 3,000. You start thinking about, you know, how often am I speaking in a meeting? And one example in my book is Lina Nair, the former CHRO of Unilever. I interviewed her in her London offices, and she's now CEO of Chanel. And she said that when she was younger, she just used to keep, you know, this little book and give herself a tick every time she spoke up in the meeting, give herself a double tick when it resonated.

These things, I have no doubt got her to where she is today. The other thing, though, John, I want to mention is that risk-taking is so scary for people because we don't have a method to approach it. And I talk about this in my book. I'm not telling you to take a paraglider when you've never been paragliding before and put on a blindfold and jump off a mountain. No, but I'm going to give you like a method to think about it. So I have this old moves method in the book, and it's really about assessing, one, what's my motivation? Because you should crystallize the motivation that matters to help you through hard times. But you also need to be able to ensure that your motivation fits the risk. So sometimes people are like, oh, I want this.

And I'm like, why? And it's one of comparison that doesn't really make sense. And then they realize it's not worth taking. But I'll pause before I get to the rest. I see you. So this is where I wanted to ask you about your why, right? Because that's the motivation, right? So the why, how early do you suggest people, individuals, go through the why exercise for themselves about why they do what they do? Because I'll be straightforward with you. I've just gone through this journey myself. Dad passed, threw me on a loop for a while, whatever, had to recenter. You know, I always felt like I knew what I was doing and whatever, but I really, it was important for me to really go through the exercise of the why.

And I'm so glad I did. And the core values as well. I'm trying to go through core values with my daughter right now, just as a very simple exercise to say, hey, look, you know, her why I think is irrelevant at 11 years old, right? You don't know. But the core values, I think, is really important. So where on somebody's career path, if you will, do you think it's important to start really thinking about why you're doing what you're doing? Because for me, it really didn't resonate until I was in my 40s. And I'm wondering if I even would have known my why when I was in my 20s. Yeah. I think, so look, I think the sooner you crystallize some why, the better. But I don't think it has to be your all-inclusive why am I working why.

So for instance, Lena Nair, when she was speaking up in a meeting, her why might have been because I want to add a underrepresented voice to this meeting about products. Or her why might have been because I want to ascend into a leadership. Or her why might have been because I want to inspire the young woman next to me. So when I talk about crystallizing a motivation that matters, it's not always your, this is what I want to do with my life. But it is, why does this one risk matter? And I think that the process of doing that will help you crystallize otherwise. And the reason why it's so important is, I mean, people ask me, so I mean, I have spoken thousands of times over my life. And I was public speaking and debating on a professional stage by the time I think I was like 13.

And people say, you know, do you still get nervous? And I said, yeah. And I said, the way I work through my inner critic when I'm getting up in front of a room of 500 or 1,000 people is I refocus on my why. And my why is that I want to equip women to build bold and brilliant careers. And I want to help leaders build organizations where women and underrepresented employees can rise and thrive. Once I focus on that, every little chatter in my head goes away. Now, that's a big, beefy why, right? But earlier in my career, it would be that, you know, I wanted to offer a point of view or my why was I think I have something valuable. So I would say it can be much smaller than this kind of broader one, even earlier on.

Brilliant. Yeah. Because I think that, you know, that gives you the confidence, right? I mean, I keep coming back to it. It's almost like your decision stack of if you know your why, you know your values, when any decision comes up, you just apply it against those and you say, does it fit that? And if it does, great. If it doesn't, whatever. Another small little tactic that I use, and I use it, this happened relatively recently in my, you know, 10, less than 10 years ago in my career was, I started asking myself on a risk, which is what's the worst case scenario? Like if I do this, literally what is the absolute worst case scenario that would happen if I do this? And as long as I'm okay with that worst case scenario, I do it.

If I'm not okay with the worst case scenario, I kind of reassess. And I'm like, okay, well, what's the percentage of the, what's the, like the potential of that worst case scenario? And then I kind of, okay, well, if it's only 10%, then maybe I'm still going to do it. Right. But it just gave me a different mindset to say, instead of like, oh my God, this is a risk. And should I do it or not? It's like, all right. Like, I'm not a brain surgeon here. I'm not like a, you know, I'm not an emergency room doctor. So if I do something like, eh, you know, what really ultimately in the big picture here, what's the worst thing that could happen? And yeah, I think that's so important because, and like I said, I've also encouraged people to flip the script and say, what's the best thing that could happen?

Because we're more likely to think about the worst case scenario. So in the method that I have the bold moves method to assess, like one is what's your motivation? One's what's the opportunity and opportunity cost? Because sometimes you have to give something up to take a risk or what will you say no to? One's what's my best case scenario, future state vision, because we're more likely to think about the worst. So that speaks to yours. But then speaking to your point, it's what's my end game plan? If this works out, how am I going to take advantage of this risk? Like, am I prepared to really step up to the plate? And if it doesn't work out, what am I going to do? So what's my end game plan? And then the last one, the S is support.

What's my support? Because no individual is an island. And I really get frustrated. I was talking about this the other day when I see all of these, you know, self-made entrepreneurs. I'm like, no one's self-made. Like part of the research that I've done around the most amazing women that have built these amazing careers, they realize no woman's an island. You're all connected and you need support. And if you are going to be bold and take risks, you need to think about what that support structure is. Who are those stakeholders you're engaging, your success advisors, and then those people that'll really be your safety net when things go well or when things go less well. I remember, you know, when Obama was president and he said, you know, if you've been successful, like you never, you didn't get there by yourself.

And the backlash was ridiculous. And he's like, he's like, you, you really think you did it. So you, the roads that you drove on, the, you, you paved those, the car that you, the car that you drove, you built that car, the, you know what I mean? Like all, and he just kind of outlined it and people were so like, ah, there's, it's like, no, you didn't. None of us, none of us are self-made in any way, shape or form. We all had to rely on people around us. I think it's the American dream. Like, you know, like I think there's this individualism in the U.S. that is so like, oh, I made it on my own. I pulled up my bootstraps. If you look at political theory and ideology from, you know, family fathers onwards, but the reality is human beings are relational beings.

And even if you didn't have a family or you were isolated or came from a worst case scenario, you may have had less of a support structure, but we all have had someone contribute to something we've done. Let's, let's finish up with this whole concept of work-life balance versus time and energy optimization. I was fascinated reading this because I always, I always kind of cringed at work, work-life balance. I personally disagree with work-life balance because to me, by having that mentality, it tells me that you, you think that you work and then you live. And in our world, you sleep about a third of your life, you, you work at about a third of your life. So that means you're only, you're telling me that you only live a third of your life to me is extremely depressing.

So I talk a lot about work-life integration, but you, you talk about time and energy optimization. Could you unpack that for us a little bit? Yeah, sure. And I agree with you work's part of life. So the fact that we've got these pictures of like work-life balance on scale, it's an elusive ideal, but it also doesn't work overall based on, okay. So ultimately what I find is particularly in the women's space, but irrespective, people always talk about like, how do you achieve work-life balance? And I think we're setting ourselves up for failure. And instead of thinking about a scale with two sides, I said, we better be thinking about like having a limited number of time dollars and wanting to think about investing them in the places that have the greatest return on investment.

So how I explain this is that like a lot of the people that I've worked with or coached will come to me and they'll say, you know, I've been working so hard this year and I didn't get the performance rating I wanted because my manager said that this is what they really cared about. And I wasn't performing in that area, but I did all of this. And I'm like, well, did you ever ask your manager what mattered to them? And if you're not, you're probably investing all of this time and energy into things that don't even matter, right? So that's like, we have a limited number of time each day. Energy is not infinite. And then we're putting it into something that will cause zero minimal returns, right?

With leaving little room to do other things. And the same at home, you know, I'll see women rushing home and feeling guilty because they're online late at night, but then they're also trying to have dinner with their family, but they're multitasking. I'm like, have you ever asked your kids and your husband, or it would be for anyone, you know, what they really care about? Maybe they just want you to be home and present on the weekend and they prefer you just to work late every night. You don't know. And so by isolating what matters most to the people that matter to you, you can optimize how you're investing your time and energy. And chances are, you're going to reduce feelings of conflict because you're going to be making smarter choices.

And it's so easy just to put all of this time into something that doesn't matter. Like one example I gave was years ago through my husband, a 30th birthday party. And I like, you know, got a party bus, friends flew in, like we had this club, we had all of this stuff going. And my husband was like, afterwards, he was like, that was great, but I would have been really fine with just a dinner with you. And I'm like, all of that time? But it happens in every area of life. And so the best person, if anyone on this podcast is interested in looking more, Stu Friedman has a book and different theories on that. He's also a value pen, but he talks a lot about doing a stakeholder assessment. And I bet you everyone here in sales, I bet you've done an assessment of all of your stakeholders or your markets or your clients or your consumers, what matters to them?

What language are we going to use? We need to do a stakeholder assessment in our lives at work and at home, what matters most and how do we align to that? And he talks all about that. I love that. And it's always about, you know, we put these weird undue pressures on ourselves to do stuff that don't matter to, and I'll bring it super tactical to sales. It's like, you know, a client will say, and I used to fall into this trap, client will say, John, send me a proposal. And I'd be like, all right, great. And I would stop everything I was doing and I would write this really, and I would probably stay up late that night to do it just so I could get it out to him. And I would put the undue pressure on myself to get it to him that day.

But I've started, you know, a long time ago, I stopped and I was like, okay, happy to get you that proposal. When do you simply ask, when do you need it by? Oh, by the end of the week's okay. Great. I just bought myself three days to do this when instead I would have. And another one that you maybe think of with your husband is my mom. So every year I would get really thoughtful gifts from my mom, okay? Every time I would travel, all my family, like I'm always thinking of, oh, she would love this and she's into this and all right, cool. So I would put these really lot of thought into a gift, right? And I would always send it to her, right? And then we'd spend some time on the phone. I'd call her on her birthday and everything else.

And, but cards to me, I don't really give a shit about cards. Like if you send me a card, I'm going to open it. I'm going to read it. I'm probably going to forget it in three seconds. I'm going to throw it right in the trash. Like I, I personally think it's a waste of time, right? I mean, unless you're going to really write a, you're personally going to write a very thoughtful note, a Hallmark card to me, I could care less about. Okay. Yeah. But so I sent my dad a present, thoughtful present. I sent my sister a thoughtful present, talked to them both on, sent my mom. And on the third one, I think it was my dad, my mom calls me. We always talk on Mondays and she goes, is everything okay? And I'm like, yeah.

Why? Why do you ask? She's like, well, you know, you, you, you, you usually so thoughtful with your cards and stuff and, and, you know, you didn't send your dad one and you didn't send me one. And I'm like, mom, I'm like, didn't you get the super thoughtful gift that I sent you? She's like, well, yeah. And I'm like, didn't we spend two hours on the phone on your birthday talking? She's like, yeah. I go, so then what the fuck? Who gives a shit about the card? And she's like, she goes, and she said, she's like, John, I'm a seven at the time. She's like, I'm a 75 year old woman. I don't need any more gifts. You and I talk on a weekly basis. I just want a card. And I was like, God, just son of, you know, cause in my mind, I hate cards.

So why would I give cards? Right. But for her, and it's, I think that's that we put all this pressure on ourselves to do things that we think are important that we might want ourselves. But by simply taking that simple step of asking what's important to you, do you care about this? When do you need this by reducing so much stress? And Oh, and by the way, then you can handle the objection. If you will, if somebody's like, well, I need it by today. It's like, well, I can't do that by today. You know what I mean? Like, I like, why do you need it by today? And then, you know, play around with that. But it's just this, this weird thing that we put this pressure on ourselves that isn't really necessary in so many different scenarios.

I'm giggling because I have the same situation in my family that cards are so important and I'm so glad that don't, doesn't care. And so my sister always jokes to me, she's like, remember the cards. So, but you're right, because I was like, why do we do this? And then I'm like, and it's not about what's important to you. It's about what's important to the other person. So as we think about sales, business, life, relationships, outside of work, inside of work, whatever it may be, one of the best tools is just the simple piece of advice, which is ask, don't assume. And most of the feelings of conflict and tension and burnout in this life is because we are focusing on what we're assuming is important to someone and we're not asking.

And so it was interesting. So one of my mentors who wrote the preface for my book is Betsy Myers, and she set up the center for women in the white house under president Clinton. She worked, she was the CEO of Obama's campaign, like women for Obama, really amazing woman. And she said this thing like clarity is just as important in personal relationships as in business. And, and so what I, that one mindset section you might've seen in the book is all around using curiosity to fuel your risk-taking because curiosity can actually just enable you to ask, not assume, and then free up time for taking bold moves and taking more risks because you don't feel as stretched. I think that that was another whole topic is of the curiosity, like you said, harness curiosity to optimize your time investment.

And that's what led to the work-life balance thing. It's, and I think, last, actually question on you for that one. Is curiosity, is genuine curiosity born or can you learn it? Nature nurture. Oh, such a good question. So there's some people that come out of the womb. I mean, I'll just tell you off the cuff. I've, I've never been asked that before. So there's some people who come out of the womb and I'm like, gosh, they're just insatiably curious. And, um, and I feel like as a child, you see them asking so many questions about the world, about people around them and everything. But I think curiosity can be cultivated as well. And I think it's because when you teach people to approach life with a spirit of inquiry and you show them all the amazing learnings that can come with that.

And then even when you do things wrong, like we were talking about, when you fail and talking to your daughter, well, why did this go wrong? What can you do better? What did it, I think it can be learned, but it really, you need to have examples. And this book is fueled with, I mean, I talked about Lena Nair and Betsy Myers. Um, I talked about my coaching client, Nim, who is the youngest, uh, chief role at Bacardi Global. And they are just the craziest, curious people I've ever met. And I walked in to interview them and they started asking me questions in all cases. And I was like, who are these amazing people? Right. Well, I think, you know what? I, I, I kind of positioned it as the give a shit factor where when you care, you become more curious and I mean this for customers, I mean this for people, I mean this for your job, I mean this for your opportunities or everything.

Like if you genuinely care, if you don't, if you're just going through the motions, you're just like, whatever, answer your question. See you later. Where do I get my raise and how much am I going to get? You know, blah, blah, blah. But if you actually give a shit, right. And I talk about this in sales all the time. If I look at you as a number or I got to hit my numbers this month or whatever it is, then I'm just going to go through my motions. I'm going to try to get you the, you know, I'm going to negotiate with him, get the price, whatever, but if I genuinely give a shit about you as a person and as a business, I'm going to start to ask questions of why you shouldn't do business with us or really curious, like, wait a minute, why are you even having this conversation with us?

Cause it doesn't look like we're a fit here and, and genuinely care. And so I think the, what I try to coach reps on is, is care first. Cause if you care, then you're going to be curious. You're going to want, if you care about your career, for instance, you're going to want to learn more. You're going to want to expand. You're going to want to grow. You're going to want to take risks. If you care about your customers, you're going to want to learn how to better service them. You're going to want to learn how to like, where you can really make a difference. And that's where that, to me, that curiosity of asking layer question after layer question after layer question can come in because you care.

So, yeah, I think that's so powerful. And I just think curiosity is at the core of sales, but I also think it's at the core of the human experience. Like it's like how we get to understand each other in the world around us. And that's why I featured it as one of like the three most critical mindsets, because curiosity just can be such a powerful tool in life and in work and in sales, as you mentioned. Awesome, Christy. Well, I think we could continue this conversation for another couple hours here, because I am extremely curious about more and more and more of the stuff that you wrote and your background and everything else and what you're doing. But we try to keep this around an hour. So with that, the book's coming out in a couple of weeks.

The ebook's out right now and the audio book's out right now. Talk to us a little bit about the launch. Yeah, the audio book's already available for purchase on Amazon. And then the Kindle and the physical book, the drop date is August 2nd. So we're almost there. So I'm really excited to get this tool in the hands of more individuals who can benefit from it. And just one thing, I mean, for your audiences, this is not, I mean, this will help how you lead women or manage. It will help how you raise your daughters. It can be a great gift for graduates, but it could also be used as a foundation for a women's program in your organization. It's written like a curriculum. So there's so many different uses for this.

So I just really wanted to stress that because I know your audience is very diverse. Yeah, and I appreciate that. And I just encourage everybody, it's called Begin Boldly. And it's Christy Hunter Ascott, A-S-C-O-T-T. Is there any way that they can get in touch with you? What's the best way to get in touch with you? Yeah, my website. So it's just my name dot com. So it's pretty easy. And it's Christy with an I-E, not a Y for those listening. And yeah, and this book is, I mean. I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. So if you just search that name, you'll find it. And I highly recommend this book for not, like you said, not just women, but men, kids in school right now. Just it gives you, one of the things I really liked about it, because I'm not a real big book reader, because I think most books are full of crap.

And they're, you know, 80% of it is filled with fluff so that you can sell it for $24.95. But your book was very tactical in a lot of ways. It was like, hey, here's the problem. But here's a solution. Here's the framework. Here's something to do. You know what I mean? So it wasn't just like, oh, this is an interesting read. Yeah, we're going to be more diverse here. It's like, no, no, no. Here's some frameworks and things you can do specifically, tactically, to help change things or to help you change your own career or help you take better risks. So I genuinely appreciate that. Yeah, it definitely is. Like, that was the focus at the beginning. I say it's light on anecdotes and, you know, big on action.

And it's focused around challenge, solution, and then exercises. So it's written almost like an actionable curriculum versus a book. So I'm glad you heard that. Yeah, great job. So thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, Christy. Yeah, great. Thanks, John. And good luck raising a bold daughter. Trust me, every day she challenges me. And I'm trying to challenge her back the right ways. But she's going to run the world one of these days. Look, everybody, thank you so much for listening. As always, hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And as always, like I say, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day.

The world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I'll see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads. And I can't thank you enough. To keep the momentum going, if you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it. In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows. With a video question or a DM and I will get right back to you, I promise.

And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses. I'll be delivering live training the first and second week of every single month with our two marquee courses, filling the funnel and driving a close to anybody who wants to join. And it includes membership in our on-demand platform with weekly AMAs. So you can go to jbarrows.com slash open to check out the details. Thanks again and have a great day.