Shelton Banks: Diversity Means Profits

Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And Shelton Banks is without question one of these people. He's making an incredibly positive impact on the world around him and the people he works with. He's the CEO of Rework Training and co-founder of Sales for Culture. Now, both of these organizations help people of color get jobs in tech while also helping companies realize the true value of a diverse workforce. Shelton's story is inspiring at every level. He's a high school dropout from a ghetto who realized at a real early age that he didn't want to be defined or held back by his surroundings or the people around him.

So he took the initiative to go on Craigslist and get an entry-level job with pretty much anybody who would hire a kid without a high school degree and then worked his way through that, got into finance, and ultimately got into tech sales, which is where I met him at Sprout Social when I was doing a training for him. From there, Shelton wanted to help other people like him. So he started these non-profit organizations to help underprivileged people of color get jobs in the tech space and help them achieve levels of success they never thought possible based on their situation. We talked about how so many people have such a limiting mindset because they've never even seen anyone like them succeed in a different way.

Too many people accept their situation because no one's ever shown them anything different or challenged them to be any better. And Shelton does this all the time with the people he interacts with. We also talked about the challenges of organizations who talk about diversity but ultimately do nothing but check boxes and how we really need to change that mentality because being a more diverse workforce isn't just the right thing to do. Shelton talks about how it actually is what drives revenue and drives money, which is what all these companies are looking for. Diverse workforces actually are more successful than non-diverse workforces. So he goes through the details of that. Look, I hope every sales leader or every leader out there listens to this podcast and starts to be more proactive about how they create a more diverse workforce and give people who don't quote, fit the typical mold a chance.

You never know what you're going to get when you give someone a chance who never had one. Let's make it happen. What's happening, Make It Happen family? Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Vidyard and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes. Vidyard makes it easy for people to use videos anywhere. No matter whether you're sending videos in email or on social media, posting them somewhere or sending them in a DM, Vidyard has got you covered. Our friends at Chili Piper are so much fun to be around. They make it easy for people to get on your calendar and every sales rep has got to have this function locked in.

It's one of the most important things we can do as a seller. How can I get you on my calendar easily? Chili Piper can make that happen for you. Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. All right, Shelton Banks. How are you, my friend? It's been a minute. It has been a minute, man. You're looking good, though, man. You look fresh and new, man. Like brand new you. Brand new JB. Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm trying to try. I'm back on track. We talked a little bit about this, right? I had about a year and a half kind of going through some shit. And I feel like I'm better on the other side now.

I'm excited for what's next here. Sounds like you've been through a lot yourself over the house a couple of years. Oh, I have, man. I have. Oh, 100% do I have, man. The good, the bad, the ugly. But overall, it's been good, man. Especially, you know, being an urban city kid. To get this far, you know, I look back and just, I'm like, we're going places, man. Yeah, you are. Yeah. And I want to talk through that because what you're doing, man, you know, it's inspiring on a lot of levels. I mean, almost, I mean, for the obvious reasons, but also basically just what you're doing, right? And what you're building. Like I'm always in awe of entrepreneurs, people who take that jump and go get it and then make the, and make a difference along the way.

And, and I'm couldn't be more impressed with what you're working on because you and I, and I want to talk about, because I want to give people some perspective on your journey here. We met when you were at Sprout, right? Was it Sprout Social? Yep. Yep. Never forget it, man. Forget what theater we got, man, but you dropped gems on me, man. But yeah, Sprout Social. That was a fun one, too. That was a different, that was a different environment, too, because it was, that was a, that was a theater. That was the first time I've actually presented on stage at a theater, which was kind of cool. That was your first time doing it? That was your first time, like, Sprout? On, like, on, like, a stage. You know what I mean?

Like a, like a theater stage. Like, I obviously presented a bunch, but that felt like I was, like, on stage, like, curtain comes up, and yeah, here you go, man. Dude, I couldn't tell you, but man, I was looking, I was sitting in the audience, like, this dude, like, where is he getting this stuff from, man? Like, this is, like, this is gold, man. And the fun stuff is, like, this is, you know, and I want to talk about this perspective here, right? Because a lot of that stuff ain't rocket science. Like, the stuff I talk about ain't rocket science, but it's just, if you haven't heard it before or heard it in a certain context before, it tends to go over a lot of people's heads. You got, I actually forgot where you, where'd you go to school?

I didn't, man. I'm a college, no college degree, high school dropout, dude. Shit, man, even better. Straight from the, you know, from the hood. I love it. So, when you get into, because you started your quote-unquote career in finance, right? Yeah, yep. So, I was in banking. Well, back up a little bit, because if you, because this is part of the journey here. Like, you started straight from the hood, straight from the ghetto. How'd you get from there? Was there somebody that woke you up? Was it you internally? Was it your family? Like, what happened to get you to wake up from, I got to get out of this? And then, what'd you do? I was always trying to get out. I think that wasn't, it wasn't like a wake-up period, just waiting for an opportunity, man.

So, I, high school dropout, right? And so, I go to Craigslist, and I started looking up jobs, because that was the only place I knew where to look up jobs at, at the time. And I don't know what, this is back in 20, 2006, maybe. I'm looking at jobs on Craigslist and finding anything. If somebody's giving me an opportunity, just honestly, I'm like, oh, I got a high school, no high school diploma, no college degree. And so, the stigmas that came with it, at least I felt, the stuff I was telling to myself, I'm like, well, I'm a statistic. And so, you better, I'm about to just work hard and look for somebody to give me an opportunity. And so, I ended up selling Cutco knives, vector marketing, like so many other people.

And that was cool. And in the process, I also started this, like, apprenticeship program. I wanted to, you know, work with my hands. And that's what a lot of the old folks told me, like, go get a job in the trades. And so, I started doing that. And actually, I like that, man. I actually, you know, I know how to lace and drywall and some tile and do some, and it's all good until it gets cold, man. I'm not sure if you ever had to, you know, especially in Chicago. Oh, Chicago, dude, and you carrying sheetrock. And it wasn't like I was making a whole bunch of money doing it. And I, you know, saw a help wanted sign in a window one day at a bank that they were building. And I just applied. And I was like, I just, somebody give me an opportunity.

And so, that was my entry into, out of like the white, blue collar work into white collar work as a part-time teller at a bank. And dude, like, I sucked it up like a sponge, you know, banking and sales. Anybody that's like, you know, familiar with banking, dude, they sell checking accounts, savings accounts. They sell. They're not great at it, but they sell. And dude, I just, I began to just like hustle checking accounts, man, from a telling line. Like, everybody that walked in, like, I was like talking and telling them what I learned and they liked me. And that was it, dude. I just took that opportunity and ran with it. And so, I went from part-time teller to full-time teller, full-time teller to personal banker, personal banker to like, end up getting my investment licenses.

And then went from investment banker to branch manager, probably within like three years, two years, three years, and just never looked back, man. That was just, that was my education and opportunity and my shot all in same moment. Did you, when you were growing up, were you always a motivated kid? Like, were you always somebody that like went and got it? Yeah. Cause I, cause I always wondered like that nature nurture thing, right? Like, can you teach drive? Can you teach passion? Can you teach that? Go get it. Right. Because there's, there's a bunch of other people that have far more opportunities than you ever had. Right. And, and they still don't capitalize on it. They still kind of complain about the fact that, oh, you know, I can't do that or whatever.

So where do you think it was in you, uh, that, that drove you to keep wanting to get out, keep wanting to get better, keep trying to be the best of what you can be with the opportunities that were presented to you? Yeah. I don't think the best, I think it was just a lot of like, a lot of people I didn't want to be like, and a lot of people I wanted to prove wrong. So like grandfather, love my grandfather, he passed away, but he was probably my biggest, like, you know, he would, he would, he would motivate me in a not so positive way. Right. He would tell me like, oh, if you don't do this, you're not going to be anything. If you don't do this, you're not going to, you're not going to make it if you don't.

And I would constantly hear that. And I'm like, I got to prove this man wrong. I don't want to come back home. He's like, what you doing now with yourself? You know, and it's just like, oh, I ain't doing nothing. Anytime I will have to ask my grandparents for money, like, oh, I need, you know, $10 off on the bus. It's just like, you know, my grandmother would give it to me and he would just be in the background. Like, yeah, you need $10. I'm like, when you going to get a job that, you know, when you going, when you going to do something with yourself? I didn't want to hear that. And, uh, between that and like growing up where I grew up at, it was a liquor store on the corner called Hilltop. And, uh, I remember seeing like every day, kind of just the same old stuff, man.

It was like this older guy, he had to be maybe 40 at the time. I was probably like 13, 14. He would like walk to the liquor store, get his lottery tickets, get a fifth of, of, of Colt 45, drink his fifth of Colt 45, spit some sunflower seeds with a whole group of other guys and then come back home. And I was always wonder like, at what point in your, what point in the person's life do they be like, I'm, this is, this is what I want to, you know, I'm going to do this. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to be a Colt 45 drinker and spit some flower seeds at, you know, three in the afternoon. Like at what point does a person decide that? And I was just like, I'm not going to anybody to be, be me.

And then, uh, you know, after I dropped out of high school and I dropped out to work, to help my mom out, it was just that same sense of pride. Like I didn't want anybody to know I was a high school dropout. Like I just like, ah, I refuse. I don't want to be that stigma. So I'm just going to fake it and just something, you know, something works out. So I'm going to, I want to get your feedback on, on two different angles here. One, I want to talk about the limiting mindset angle of individuals who might be in that situation, right. And not think that they got a chance out of it or think corporate is for them. Right. But then the other, the other side of this, I want to get your thoughts on is, is how corporate can be better at attracting and, and opening up opportunities.

But let's start with this one. And this, cause this one, and I need your help personally, because I don't know how to have this conversation. Yeah. Um, I went on Tik TOK, right. I've been, I've been on Tik TOK for like, you know, a minute, like a week and a half, basically two and a half weeks. And the woman that's working with me on this, she cut, she's taken some clips of webinars and conversations like this and throwing them up there at 60 seconds. So obviously there's not a lot of context. And I had this one webinar that I was doing with Amy Volus and we were talking about recruiting and hiring and all this stuff. And I, and I, we got on the topic of people who are just like basically going through the motions, right.

They just apply, they put their resume in and they hope for the best. And then they complain that they're not getting. And I, I probably said something I shouldn't have. I was like, if you're just out there putting together, putting resumes out there and just going through the motions and submitting 300 resumes and hoping for the best. I'm like, that's pathetic. Like you should try something different. And I gave this little tip of like, well, in the B2B world, going on a website, looking at values and vision and stuff like that. And then writing an email to the seat, instead of just submitting to an HR director, like going up to an executive and saying, Hey, I'm looking for the next challenge in my career.

And you know, your values really aligned with mine. I was wondering if I could either talk to you or something like that. And I think it's because the audience of Tik TOK where, you know, it's not LinkedIn. And I think a lot of these people might work at the Starbucks, the Amazons, the Walgreens, because I got so much hate. Call me an idiot, which I'm fine with. Okay. Like, but some of it came down to this, uh, which I'm real sensitive of with, which is white privilege, right? A lot of the comments were like, Oh, white, you know, coming from a white dude who, you know, no problem. But then the other came from like, no, it was like, okay, no problem. I'll just email Elon Musk. I'll just Elon.

And it was such an, a lack of understanding. Like, obviously that's not what I was saying. I mean, I should have said it, but I'm not talking about Elon Musk and Amazon and Bezos and stuff like that. So, and it was really just my thing to, to try to expand people's horizons of how to, you know, a different way. Okay. If this way isn't working, then this way is. But so many people came back saying that's ridiculous. No CEO on the planet would ever respond to an email. They all have assistants. They get too many emails. They're more important. And I'm sitting there. I'm like, no, no, that's not true. And it's not coming from white privilege. I know it is in a lot of ways. I mean, that's why I got this shit tattooed on my arm.

Like when I told you my dad passed and this was what he had written on his, his, um, his desk that said, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Right. And the concept there is privileges. Like the word privilege, when it comes across to somebody like me, it's like, I didn't earn it. And so I almost want to change the word privilege, right? Because that's not what it means. Privilege means when I'm driving down the street and I get pulled over, I don't have to worry about getting shot. You know what I mean? Privilege means I don't have to worry about what I'm dressed like this morning because I don't want to get sexually harassed. That's privilege. And so I'm obviously very sensitive to it, but I also want to help people change that perception of that ability of, I might just be working in a retail job with no, you know, future or whatever.

And I'm just looking for a paycheck. I mean, that was another one. It's like, man, screw that corporations all suck. I just need a job. Doesn't fucking matter what it is. And I want to, I want to wake all them up, but I don't know how to, to, to expose them to the fact that no, there's really, if you just do what you did, for instance, go on Craigslist, look for this and do that. How do I have that conversation? How do we have that conversation to change that perception? Man, that's a, that's a loaded and tough, uh, it's a tough question. And I don't, I don't, you know, answering it, you know, it's, it's weird. Cause I'm going to use probably something that you and a lot of folks on, you know, your side of the business that have been taught sales taught me is one.

I think you're, you're doing it wrong by you just, you saw how to, how do we reach them? My question is like, who, who are you talking to? You know, who, and I, and I mean really specifically, like, who are you talking to? Because the moment you talk, try to talk to everybody, it's almost like you're talking to nobody, which is, is the, is the pushback that you're going to get. I think understanding that like, you know, buyer persona 101, you got to be talking to somebody very specifically. And oftentimes organizations take this kind of, they take this nonprofit approach and I'm going to be, I hate the nonprofit approach, which is interesting enough because I'm in nonprofit. I hate this. This is probably what I brought with me to the nonprofit space of like, you can't help everybody by trying to help everybody.

You got to pick one person, two people to possibly talk to because you will get those folks that one are just that limited mindset that they, they, they're actually content where they're at. You know, it's just like, they're content with the, you know, I got friends that like, you know, I, I do the same thing. Like, Hey man, come do this. And it's like, no, man, I like food stamps and I like being on government assistance and I like, and that's not a color thing. You know, I've come to appreciate that. I used to think like all black people on food stamps. So it was like, Oh, no matter what. Right. It's like, it's just like, they like that. They're okay with that. They, they, they, they don't want to leave that.

And it's just like, who am I to be like, nah, your way of living is wrong. You should be on, you could do better for you yourself. Like I'm coming to appreciate it. Like I can't talk to those people. I'm not for those people. My message is, you know, that's not, you're not my persona who I'm talking to. And so like, you know, for you, for anybody else out there that's trying to help, it's like, Hey, talk to two people, you know, talk to two people. Like actually map them out. Talk. You want to talk to the folks that are star at Starbucks and you're like, Hey, everybody that works at Starbucks has the skillset to go into tech sales, focus on the folks at Starbucks that have particular problems and are going through, you know, they have a pain of their own.

They understand something versus taking this broad approach. Cause you know, as soon as you, this broad approach and I've done it, you know, I've learned the hard way of like, every time I took the broad approach, I'm like, why isn't I got, I got $55,000 base pay jobs. Like why isn't everybody running, knocking out my front door to come get this job. And it's like, it's, I ain't, you know, ain't for everybody. I don't want it. And that's, I think that's what struck me was how, how quickly that, cause I do try to kind of obviously tailor my message to people who are in my space and that's easy on LinkedIn in a lot of ways, but TikTok's a brand new world for me. And that one, well, you know, most of my posts get three, four or 500 views or whatever it is.

This one popped and got a million because I think it pissed so many people off. And, and so, but I was just so, I want to say taken back, but also, but also saddened in a lot of ways by how many people were the comment of man, that I just want a job. I just want, and I get it. I'm not trying to reach those people because look, if that's your mentality, I can't change that. But it's, it's the people that don't think it's an option. You know what I mean? But cause I was watching some of your videos that you posted on LinkedIn, as far as the people who have graduated through your program and stuff. And a lot of them were like, you know, I was an artist. I was this, I was in retail and I didn't even know this.

I didn't even know tech sales was an op, like corporate. One woman said corporate was like so far away from something I even thought was a possibility. So is it, is it a, just a hand-to-hand combat basically going around trying to find those people that do care, but just don't know. It's honestly, I mean, I'm going to be, this is the selfish part. Like it's me trying to, you have had somebody ask you that question. What could you, what would you tell your younger self? Like you can go back and tell it is me doing that, you know? And like the, the, the other people that kind of benefit are almost like, you know, they benefit and I'm, I'm almost surprised. I'm like, Oh my God, this worked for you.

And then taking those people and just using those folks to go back and say like, Hey man, go pay it forward and find somebody that is in your exact same situation, your younger self and tell them like, Hey, I was, I can understand. I can relate to you because like, yeah, man, talking to, you know, you get a lot of single moms that come through the program, right? I can't relate to that. You know, I'm raised by a single mom, but like, can't, I don't know the pain that exists and empowering other folks that have gone through the program that are single moms. I'm like, I don't know what I said that worked for you, but do me a favor, go back and grab another single mom that is in the same situation.

It's I'm surprised every time somebody is just like outside of like the scope of what, uh, you know, me that reminds me and myself gets a job. It's just like, man, somebody else, they saw themselves and one of the volunteers or one of the other candidates that made them say like, I can do this. And that's what usually changes their mind. And that's why I think, you know, representation is so important so that they can even see it. I mean, I got a daughter, she's 11. Right. And it's like, I'm very conscious now of seeing women in leadership roles, seeing women in different and pointing them out to her just because if you can't see it, you could never imagine it. You know what I mean? Like, like I want to be an astronaut.

If you don't, if an astronaut doesn't look like you or doesn't come from your background, you ain't never going to think about being an astronaut. Right. So how much pressure do you feel to, um, to be that, that visible executive doing what you're doing for other people? Do you feel that pressure? Uh, I used to, I used to, you know, felt feel like I'm carrying the, the weight of all black males on my shoulders to kind of live up to this, this expectation, dude. And it, it, uh, honestly was, it was confusing, man. Cause to that point of just like different buyer, but like, it was like, I can't make everybody happy. It was just like, nah, like other black people that I get black people that, that I know it'd be like, Oh man, you run this pyramid scheme over here.

I'm just like, I'm a nonprofit. Like I don't make any money from anybody that gets a job and you're calling me a pyramid scheme. It's just like, these people I grew up with, it's just like, you know, like, and so then I would spend weeks trying to convince them like, this is a nonprofit. This is what it is like. I'm not a pyramid scheme. And it just drives me nuts, man. And then on the flip side, I get, you know, I sit in meetings with, with, with executives from tech companies and they're just, you know, make all putting comments. And it's just like, I'm fighting folks on both sides, man. It just got to the point where it wasn't healthy for me. And I just, you know, put it down. Like, you know, I'm not, I'm trying to help people.

I can help you. Great. If I can't, I try to find somebody who can help you, but like, I'll let the pressure go, dude. It just, it wasn't healthy for me. It's funny. I mean, not, you know, similar, but different training. I had the same, cause when I took this training the first time I loved it. Right. And it worked for me. And so I remember early on in my career, if there was 30, 40 people in the room, I was trying to hit every one of them. So if you were in the back of the room and you were on your iPhone, checking emails during my training, I'd be like, Shelton, Shelton, eyes up, man. Eyes up, pay attention. Right. And then I realized you can't reach everybody. There's certain people that just don't care.

There's certain going to be haters, whether you like it or not. And I did this training one time where I was like 10, 60, like somebody asked me, John, like you train all of our competitors. Like how do we differentiate? And I said, 10, 60, 30. And they were like, what? I go 10% of you in this room are going to take what I tell you and run with it. Cause you're the A players that are just going to excel. 60% of you going to do something different. Cause it's easy and it makes sense. 30% of you ain't going to do shit different. So the question is, isn't how many people can I train? The question is, is what percentage do you want to be in? Yeah, that's exactly right, man. I feel like you gotta take that approach with almost everything, right?

It's like, who are we going to help? Everything. Who are we going to help? Who are we going to service? Who's going to be our partners? Just like, and be okay with that. People who care. Be okay with. The people who care. 100%, man. Yeah. And I think, you know, the representation thing to go back on that, that's one thing that Morgan, I remember I put, he put a whole bunch of gold. Cause I was like, what are your goals? Like, what do you want to achieve? And all this other stuff kind of midway through. And he, it was funny. He put this real comprehensive list together, but on that list was stuff like, um, Learjet, a baller car, like all these different things. I was like, Morgan. Okay. But that doesn't seem like you, man.

I'm like that. Like the, the big baller shit just doesn't seem the type of person you are. I go, why do you want those things? Right. I'm like, you know, money doesn't buy happiness, right, man? Like, just cause you got that jet. But his point to me was real. He goes, John, right here in Atlanta. And it was, I guess it was a time where a bunch of rappers were getting killed and they were going back and forth. He's like, the only view that a black kid has grown up of rich is rappers. Right. He's like, I want those same things that rappers have just purely to show these kids that there's another path. That's exactly right. And that hit me like a ton of bricks. And that's why I asked the pressure part of it.

Cause I'm like, God damn, having the pressure of, of your community looking at you and you trying to shift that, that whole narrative away from one and towards another in a positive direction. You know, the, the macro pressure is just massive on that, but I, but it's real. And that's the, that's why I say like, man, you find somebody else and that's, you find somebody else that, that resonates. Cause I get more, right. And I do. I tried to make a TikTok video where I was like holding a stack of cash and like talking to it. And it, and it becomes this point of like, man, that's just, that's just not me. You know, that's just not me, but I got guys who that is like, like, oh man, I want the stack of cash.

And so I was like, all right, well, let me teach one of them. Like, Hey, this is how you get your stack of cash, man. I got a good dude. I, uh, I, uh, I group on with names Ruben, man. He, uh, he raps, he raps and he uses Groupon to like produce his music, some of everything else. And his music is, it sounds great. And it's like, Hey Ruben, that's not me, dude. Like, you know, you like, man, big chain, big rings. And the, and it's like, man, but I want, you know, the representation matters. And so for folks that, you know, see Ruben, it's like, Oh, did you make it? I made it in sales. It's just like, and the more you can do with that, dude, is, is how you slowly change. But again, it's for you, it's like finding out one person, like, you know, you're like, Hey, let me get one person for you.

It's more. So just like, how do you find the next Morgan? Like, man, let me have, find somebody else that I can get a game to that could pass the torch, take the torch back to the community and run with it. Yeah. I mean, that was, that was it with, you know, when he came on board, I didn't, you know, I didn't look at him as this black kid that I can bring on my team because he was, I looked at him as somebody who had talent and was on his way up. But then after hiring him, I realized what he represented to so many people because of how little representation I did, I was really blind to it on my hands from a representation standpoint, going into it. It's kind of like the whole black lives matter woke a lot of people up to say, well, it's no longer.

Okay. Just to say, I'm not racist anymore. You know what I mean? Like if you really want to do something, you got to do something. You just can't be a pat, you know, passive observant and say, oh, I'm not that type of person. So I'm okay. It was kind of that wake up call. I looked at it. I'm like, no, you know, it's these little things. It's these steps that we need to take to show that representation to give other people a chance. And the frustrating thing is, it's like my wife, she works in climate change. It's like, you know, we got a long way to hold on this one. And these little things, you don't see a big change, right? You're not going to see it overnight. But I guess my question for you is, as it relates to that is, you know, are you seeing progress?

Are you seeing, I know it's kind of in certain areas, yes, in certain areas, no, but are you feeling like we're moving in the right direction, even regardless of all the bullshit that's going on? Yeah. It depends on like the, we, you're talking about. So from like, uh, you know, tech companies ish, like a little bit, you know, I feel like it's a small progress on both ends, but I mean, how long does it take to turn the Titanic? You know, it's like, it takes, you gotta keep cranking and spinning the wheel and it takes, you know, hours and, and days to, to move the ship in a different direction. And in this case, we're almost trying to do like this about face and turn the ship completely around.

And so, yeah, dude, I wish it was more, you know, it's like, it's the, it's the crap that change happens in the stuff that I'm like, what y'all really, you know, took the time to do this versus the fundamental things that I wish would change. Yeah. So it's slow. I mean, it's slow. I wish folks would listen though. I mean, that's probably what the, I wish, you know, I get, you see folks kind of pop up out of the woodwork by like the first idea that inspires them and haven't been, you know, they haven't been working in this game long enough. I start to see more of those folks, which usually impede progress. You know, the folks that pop up and they say some anecdotal crap and it's just like, everybody goes to follow them.

I would distract it for a good, you know, year. But long story should answer your question. Like, yeah, change, small change, you know, wish it was more. What's up everybody. I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heat. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday. And you can do so by gaining access to all of JB sales content. All of their training tips, techniques, tactics, and takeaways can be yours for $1 a day. $365 for the year gets you annual access to everything, including our private Slack channel for members only, which you get access to all of us directly 100% of the time, 24 hours a day.

And then at the same time, you're going to get access to our biweekly ask me anything sessions where you can bring real deals to the table and get the help that you need where you need it. This is very, very important. Sales reps that invest in themselves are often found at the tops of their leaderboards. Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL one more time is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guests for this week. You had a quote that I was interested in on one of your posts that you said you did a bunch of reflection on. And I'm curious what that reflection was. And it was the more anger towards the past you carry in your heart, the less capable you are of living in the present, right?

Yeah. I've had to do a lot of that myself as far as just letting go on shit, right? And just not letting it hold me back. For you, was that like when you read that quote, did that hit you and you did some reflection? Or have you kind of for yourself reflected? And was there a point of just, look, whatever happened to me in the past, I'm going to use it to motivate, but I'm not going to use it to drag me down. And the reason I ask is because I think a lot of people are holding onto the past and it's holding them back in so many ways. And I'm just curious how you made that mental shift. Yeah, man. My wife helped me appreciate this. And it's the most bizarre way, man. I was carrying a table from like our upstairs to our downstairs and I was doing it by myself.

And I was like, you know, fly the stairs and you do the turn at the landing and you come down. And I was struggling. I was literally struggling. And she was like watching me and she was just like, you know, you don't have to struggle. Right. She's like, you can, you can ask me for help. And I just, you know, like I looked at I was like, all right, can you help me with this? Can you help me with this table? And so she helped me down the stairs and I just pondered over that for a while. Like, you know, I'm used to struggling. I was used to struggling. I was used. And it was this, this, this ambition that came with it of like, I'm going to make it and prove people wrong. And it was these feelings that came with the people that said, you know, negative things to me that I would use to motivate me.

But then it came to this point of like, at what point do you, you know, you let that go and you're, you know, you're no longer just surviving. You're actually thriving now, but you keep using these, the survival tactics in the thrive zone. And it's just like, at what point do you just like, yeah, say like, all right, man, let me, it's okay to let that go. Like you can actually, it's okay to be a happy person. You can smile and actually be a happy person. And you don't got a mean look and every picture and you know, just be this like, you know, like what, what point. And does that mean that you're letting go? Like if you let go of this resentment and anger that you got towards your past and the people in it and all the people that have failed you in your life, you let that go.

Who would you be there? You know, especially if you spent your whole career, just using that as the angle, like who are you now? And it's like, and so, yeah, man, I reflected on that. Like, how can I become this person of like, starting from this moment in time, this person of like that, you know, I'm not forgetting my past and I'm not forgetting the people in it, but how do I use, you know, create something new that's, that's built on this positive aspect of like, it's okay to succeed. And this is what success looks like. And you, that don't make you any less of a person, individual, especially a black man. And I think that's what the stigma was like, oh, you gotta be a black man. You gotta be like, it's like, oh, who, yeah.

Who said, who said that? Who made these, you know, who made this unspoken thing of like, you gotta do it this way. And so. That's, I love it. And it's funny because, you know, you look at a lot of really successful athletes are really successful people. And, and there's that positive and negative motivation that they all pull from at one level. But it's amazing to me, somebody like Michael Jordan, for instance, right? Like that dude, I think he was negatively motivated his entire life because remember when, I don't know if you saw, like he was my favorite basketball player of all time. Remember, remember when he got inducted into the hall of fame and he still digged on his high school coach that didn't make the junior, like he still dogged on the dude.

I'm like, Michael, you're Michael Jordan. Don't you think you could let go of that by now? And he hadn't, he had not let it go. So like, I'm curious, like there's that. Cause I always also wonder about like the Uber hyper, like number one in pick the industry. Right. I think there's just something motivates them different than most people. Uh, and they got to find what that, and they know what that is. But I think you're right for the, for the vast majority of us, I think negative motivation can bring us to a certain point to prove people wrong. But then when do you realize that you've proved, you know, you're just proving it to yourself moving forward. Now I don't, I don't need anybody else's.

Was there a point where you woke up and you said, I don't need anybody else's validation. I'm carrying a table. I'm just like, yeah, that was it. You know what? Like, you know, and it was just weird. I'm like, all right. It's not that I don't care about like what people think. It was just kind of like, I care about what I think more. You know, I was like, oh, I care about what I think more. And it's like, all right. You, you happy in this moment? Like, yeah, Shelton, I'm happy in this moment. Like, okay, well, you know, you happy, you know? And that's, and that's the ultimate goal, right? You went, you said this earlier, like, you know, who am I to say that person that's on food stamps and doesn't want to get a corporate job and wants to make 60 G's a year.

If they're happy, you know, we can have a debate on being on food stamps and not be, you know, that type of thing. But if you're genuinely happy, man, I got nothing against you. I'll, I'll, it's the people that complain about wanting all this other stuff, but not willing to put in the work to get all that other stuff. It's interesting. It's because like when in that moment when you, those folks that are like holding on, it's weird because they didn't do this thing of like, they're uncomfortable with not being okay. And although they got this inward person talking to them with all this negative stuff, they'll never admit it. And so then they just get stuck in this cycle of just like, well, I'm not going to do this because it's like, I don't, you know, you're like, are you okay?

And like, Oh, I'm happy. I'm great. I'm like, all right, but you still stuck on food stamp. Why don't you want to come? And it's just like, Oh, no, I'm about a bad mouth and just be super negative. And it's like, get out your own way. Get out your own way. Like it's okay. You can be happy. You know, it's okay for you to be happy. I know you've been hurting the past. I know whatever you're holding on to. If you let that go, get out of your own way. Like, you know, we could, is that a lot of what you deal with, with the people that you're working with now is the psychological barriers and that whole conversation we just like, you know, two, two parts of it of like the psychological aspect of like, man, get out of your own way.

Like, it's okay. Like, if you want to do this, you can, I know you've been told, I mean, this is, I think, you know, at least cultural from my standpoint of like coming from a family that was taught, you got to stay in one industry and you got to be at this company for 30 years until you retire. And if you don't, you're going to be a failure. And that's the way we do things and being able to say like, okay, well, you don't, that's not how the world works anymore. It's the internet exists. And, you know, if you want to go into tech sales, you can, and I know you don't, you know, it's okay for you to do it. You have permission. You can give yourself permission to do it. That is a large part. And then the other piece is the, you know, the psychological aspect of like understanding who a person is, you know, helping them to appreciate, like they bring value to the table from their experience is the other side of the coin, man.

That, that, that, uh, that interview question of like, you know, tell me about yourself. What brings you to this company? That is probably the most difficult question for a lot of folks I work with. Cause just like tell you about myself. Like I don't, I barely know myself. I know the upset parts of myself and now I'm at an interview and I need, now I got to fake it to, to be some happy person that I really am not because I don't know who I am. And, and so getting over that hump and just helping a person like, man, look, you, you bring a lot to the tape. Let me help you translate what that looks like. If you've been working at Starbucks for the last 10 years, and let me help you appreciate why that person will get a response from a CEO of a company, because you got some character in you, you got a lot of lived experience and a CEO of a company may want to hear about that.

Yeah. That's the, I, there was this kid, I forget his name, but he was in England and he played football or, you know, soccer. And that's what he, you know, was grown up to do. Like he was going to be, that was his way out. That was his way out. And he got to a certain point and he was like, I don't think this is my way out because in order like, you know, to get to that level, whatever, and he was good. It was not what he's good, but he's like, I don't want this to be my track. And he legit went to the richest neighbors in, in London, knocked on door. So little black kid from the hood who only knew how to play soccer, knocked on all these super, super rich people and just straight up said, what'd you do?

Like, I admire your house. You're obviously have done something successful in your life. And I was just wondering if you could tell me, how did you get here? And like, I think like the fourth door that he knocked on was some partner at a Blackbird or something like one of the huge investment firms had a great conversation with the kid said, you should be in finance. And after you're done with your season or whatever, it has come over an intern and boom, boom, boom. And all of a sudden the kids, and it was just like his, just his drive to say, this doesn't define me. And this isn't my path. I want to try something, but also having the guts to knock on door. I mean, door to door sales is brutal as it is door to door sales to the richest people in the, in the area, being a black kid from the hood, like, whew.

I had him on the podcast. Like, dude, I admire everything about you. And so now he has to teach you everything. It's like, all right, so who that's going to appeal to? You know, it's like his, his, like, I would hear that and be like, all right, man, I'm about to go from, I'm about to go knock on some doors. Right. But then you got this group 60%. It's like, nah, man, I'm about to just go to a liquor store, get my 40 and sit on this curb and like complain about, you know, that those people have those houses, right? Like that's, that's the problem. Let's go back to the psychology component. Cause one of the things you also mentioned was the psychological safety of, so let's, let's switch from the individual mindset now to the business mindset and the corporate structure that in a lot of ways prevents applicants in the first place, right.

Or, or prevents them from being their true self in whatever environment it is. Cause they feel like they have to play a role or fit a certain mold or whatever it is. So can you talk to me a little bit about the, what you mean by psychological safety in a work environment? So, you know, a couple of things, right. First thing that came to mind was, I say this often, like this toxic positivity that exists oftentimes when, when companies, in fact, let's before that. So understanding like why a company wants a person of color to come work for them has to be like, it used to be a little bit more transparent and usually it's not, you know, I think a lot of organizations and a lot of people take this kind of social impact hat and say like, oh man, it's the right thing to do.

And it's just kind of, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just like, oh, you want to be more diverse and inclusive. It's like, oh yeah, someone check a box. And when you come from that place, it's awkward because it's just like, oh, I'm checking a box. I don't know why I'm checking the box. And people can feel that, you know, they can feel that because then the energy is just like, it becomes this, uh, I want to check this box. I want it's the right thing to do. It feels good. And it's interesting because usually when that feel good kind of social impact bucket hits that business impact bucket, it's a mess. It's like usually the business impact bucket wins out. And so that's when you usually get like 90 days later after a person of color starts and because they've only checked the box and hasn't trained them correctly or haven't, you know, actually got to know them or understands the value of them being, you know, at this place, it becomes just like bait and switch moment of like, oh, you're not hitting your number.

You didn't get these metrics. I didn't, you know, you didn't, you're not doing all these things. And, and then the person of color usually freezes up and it's like, oh man, like, I don't know what to like, I'm tense up. I don't know how to act. Like you didn't teach me. You were just, you had me here cause it felt good to you. And now I don't feel safe. And I'm just like going to start pointing the fingers of like, you know, I'm going to make, I may default to the, it's cause I'm black car. And it's just like, no, I'm not safe at all. And I've, you know, right. And so like, you know, I preach this to the volunteers of like, man, creating psychological safety means that like, you need to two things like one to actually get to know the person, like I get to know them as a person and like let down this, this barrier, this facade of just ignorance that you may have.

And I actually get to know them as a person and be like, okay. We're not being okay. Like vice versa of like, you know, like, Hey, I don't know this. Like, help me, help me learn this on both ends of the coin is it's kind of like the, the first, the first, you know, hump to get over. And then the second one is, is so if you had to say, you kind of alluded to it just a little bit, if you had to say like, Hey, what, you know, what value does a, could a person of color bring to an organization? What value does diverse talent bring? What's the first thing that comes to mind? For me, different points of view, people come from different sides of the equation to give me something that I'm blind to, but why though make better decisions, maybe, you know, as an organization, I mean, I mean, to me, the more diverse set of views people have from different backgrounds and that type of things gets us to better shape what we can do moving forward to have a bigger impact on more people.

I mean, that's for us. I challenge you to just like, just let's get to the bottom line and just say like, let's cause we want to make more money. But I feel like a lot of times organizations, they, they like, they like fluff it up and just like, they beat around and it's just like, Hey man, if somebody, if looking back, if somebody would have come to me and said like, Shelton, you know, like being diverse will help us drive more revenue. So I want to help you. You're going to help us make more money. I'm going to help you make money. And if we cut to the chase of like, all right, you bring this unique standpoint, this unique point of view, I'm going to like, this is how we make money here. How would you, how do you understand that?

Like, how do you translate that? How would you have applied this where you like, like help me understand how you would do this after I just teach you this? Cause it's going to make you money. I feel like, Oh, we would be in such better shape. Like it is just, you know, and that'd create the psychological safety needed of like, Hey, you didn't teach me. I don't have to be like you to make money. I could be myself. You taught me this thing. I could be myself and I can make money, which is going to ultimately, ultimately make the company money. But it's like creating that way. Let me be me to, you know, which is why, you know, I appreciate, man, when you, when you talk, dude, a lot of stuff you talk was just from a, it was like a, a practical, you didn't say like, you have to do it like this.

Yeah. You got to subscribe to be John Barrows. You're like, here are the principles subscribe to be, you know, subscribe to be SB, you know, it was like, here's what I learned. Like, here's what he is. He is just like, you know, this is when I used it. And it was like, Oh man, like, I, I literally was like, Oh, I remember the time I did that and I can now do this again and make more money. And it worked. And it was like, you know, that's, that's what, and in that moment, because you get, I felt psychologically safe. I was just like, Oh, wow. Like I can go up to him and be like, yeah, I remember I did that one time and I didn't do it exactly like this, but this worked. And you know, so I think that's where we need more of those stories of like, you know, the ones that you're putting out there on social people, where they came from and how they had no thoughts in there so that people can make that connection.

Right. Cause we do this all the time. And if related to sales too, you know, there was this gong post a while back that talked about how we focus way too much on the outcomes, right? Like when we use case studies or anything like that, I'll be like, Hey, Shelton, check this out. We showed this company that would grow 32% and dah, dah, dah, dah. But the problem is if you don't believe that your before scenario was the same as that person's, you'll never believe that outcome, man. Right. So, so that's showing those examples of beforehand or getting more companies to talk about, Hey, let's mea culpa here. Two years ago, we were about as wide as it could get. We were about as, you know, we, we lack diversity at every single level.

We put a concerted effort into being a more diverse organization. And now look at what it did for our business as far as money, whatever it is to show people kind of like the bling bling that Morgan was talking about. It's like, let's show people the outcome of what diversity could be, but let's make sure that we're addressing the problems that people are asking. How can I feel psychologically safe? I know you're lying to me. You're trying to drink me to give me to drink some Kool-Aid. Like I know, I know this is like something is not going to fit here because you're being, you get this facade, this toxic positivity up. So let me ask you this, cause this is, I mean, you know, this is something I've always wondered when it comes to, cause now it's in danger.

Um, you know, just like, you know, gay marriage and all that other stuff, but like affirmative action, right? Conceptually it's like, Hey, if you're equal, let's give the nudge to the person that hasn't had the pro the privilege that you might've had. Right. And fundamentally that I like that, but where are you at that with that as a, cause I think a lot of corporate America checks off that box that says we fit our quota here. And that does not make people of color, women, anybody feel safe when they feel like they're there just because they had to be there. So. Oh, I do. It's, it's, I hate it. Cause to that point, it's the checker box field, dude. It's just like, you don't, you miss the point of understanding.

Like if you feel forced that you have to check this box, you don't really want to drive revenue, you know, like just from up, from up, you know, while I grew up at, I'll probably say like 25% of the population where I'm from is unbanked, right? Don't have bank accounts. Another 25% only dealing cash. I'm thinking about like black buying power, just specifically white buying powers, like 17.12, 0.2 trillion million dollars or something like that. Billion dollars, not trillion, 17.2 million. And it's just like, if you think just three people, if you check a box, you're going to be able to tap into that as an organization to be able to like generate, like you, you're missing the point. You're missing the point, man.

Like, Oh, don't send me on a rant, JB. I got it. This is, this is, yeah, man. It's just, it's outside, man. So organizations come to me and this is again, you know, I'm a nonprofit, probably one of the things I hate, man. I turn people away that just don't get that point of understanding. Like, Hey, this is going to be good for your business. If you teach people from untapped, overlooked communities, how to generate revenue for themselves, it's going to help you out. But if you think like, Oh, this is just the, this is good for us. It's good to do, you know, and you don't have this revenue lens of understanding, like, this is going to help us be a better business. It's going to help us make more money.

This is going to uplift some communities because some of that money is going to go to them. If you can't connect those dots and I don't want to work with you, which is weird for a nonprofit to say, but like I say it, you know, say it often, but that's why I love it because going back to being selective with who you, who you surround yourself with. I mean, we can tailor that to every part of this conversation. We just had like your friends growing up, like if they got limiting mindsets, you're going to have a limiting mindset. You need to stretch and go find people that'll, that'll challenge you. Right. Companies wise, like, you know, you need to surround yourself with, with people and organizations that get it because then it, then you can do special shit.

If you're always, I mean, it's the same thing. Sales. I tell people all the time, if you're trying to convince people in sales, you're doing it wrong. Right. We, we help people solve problems or achieve goals. And if your problems aren't big enough, your goals aren't big enough, why are we having this conversation? But if I have to like convince you that I'm the best or convince you to move off of your current state, I would keep pissing up that rope, man, but it's probably not going to bend. I got to convince the organization and diversity and inclusion is worth it to drive your bottom line. You know, you keep pissing, you know, you go ahead. Well, I think that's why it's so important to screen these out, you know, screen these success stories out loud, but do them in a way that gets people to understand the before than the after, because that's the part that's special.

Right. Um, you know, the example was on the post was Alcoholics Anonymous, right? When you go to AA's website, it's not, Hey, I'm 10 years sober, AA. Thank you so much for all your help. It's some dude sitting there being like, man, I started with one beer. And then I was, I was drinking at the office and then I was missing my kids' soccer games. And then I was, and it kind of goes through this whole, and the whole point is being like getting people to be like, damn, man, that's me. Like, that's me. Right. And once you get somebody to say, shit, man, that's me. Now you can convince me on where I can go. I'm like, I'm thinking of that. I'm like, how do I do that with companies? Right. Well, how do I do that with the companies?

I look around and I'm like, we're all 99% all white guys. And like, we did the affirmative action thing and we tried to check a box and that person left. Like, I think, well, I think if we talk about it a lot, I think it's, it's the problems that everybody already knows, right? Like we're, we're, we're not diverse enough, but you're with what you're doing to tie it to the revenue piece of this, I think is extremely important. We're not growing as fast as I think we should. We're not, we have a great product here, but our marketing just doesn't fit. It hasn't opened up that flywheel yet. Well, if these are the questions you're at, if these are the scenarios you're set with, then guess what? Diversity isn't just an option for you.

It's the solution for you. And because here's what happens when companies are more diverse. Here's what happens when, you know, when you're trying to go to market in a market, you're not aware of, right? Coming with different viewpoints and perspectives is something that's going to be able to open up that in different ways that you would never even think of right now. So it's, it's like that. It's like, get me to realize that, yeah, we don't want to have enough black people on. Okay. You know, we've tried that type of crap. Like we just don't get the candidates. Shut the fuck up. Right. Like you can, like you can go. Right. This is the challenge I solve every day for like, how do I convince everybody else of what you just said?

All right. Especially in a world that like social impact from a nonprofit side, do they, they do the like, Oh, help this kid get an internship and, you know, give them an internship, but don't hire them. You know, I get the, the 15 other, it's, it's some, you know, how do I convince the rest of the world? Like my stop, you know, I don't need it. We need to get some more billboards for you. Well, I think you're, I think that your, your audience is the answer, right? I mean, and I'm hoping that something like this gets out there too, those people who are sitting there thinking the same thing. Right. But I think your, your, your best advertising, man, is what you're doing right now on, on when you're highlighting those people who keep talking about, I never even thought this was an option for me.

If we flip that to the companies that these people be in place that, and then follow them over the course of a couple of years and show diversity, go from X to Y, but their revenue went from X to Y for very, you know, that's when I think it's kind of like why I go back to, you know, environmental scientists. I really think that until we take, stop taking stipends away from fossil fuel industries and, and letting them have all that stuff, like there's an easy way to solve climate change right now, taking all this shit, all the money that we give to ExxonMobil and just putting in a room, renewable energy. Cause the, because once the money's there, everybody will start paying attention. And that's the, that's the king.

It's like the time it takes to get the money there. You know, that's the, you're like, Oh, how are you doing? It's like, Oh, it's the slow, meticulous, like, all right, how many people do I, how many people do we got to help for the money just to be like, all right, we get it. This drives revenue. We make money from this. Like how long will it take? It's just like you said, hand-to-hand combat one at a time, I guess. Right. So hopefully, hopefully we did that a little bit and woke up people today on this conversation show, but I got to finish this. We should have another one of these. Cause I think we can go deep on a few more parts of this, but, but look, tell people, cause you got two things, you got two main things going on right now, right?

You got sales for culture. Uh, and then you guys, uh, rework, right? Yep. So, uh, if you're a company, you're looking to get more involved in, in really drive revenue from a diverse standpoint, come volunteer, uh, rework training.org, plenty of opportunities for individuals. Again, it's to give back of your talent, not a huge lift that we asked for an hour quarter of you giving feedback to somebody that, you know, can make a difference in a community, make a difference in their lives. And then on the flip side, if you're a person of color and you work at an organization and let's say you're the only person of color there, you're not alone, man. It's plenty of, of individuals that, you know, feel the same way you do.

And so sales for the culture.com is a, for lack of better words, an independent employee resource group, right? Right. You're here to support people that are in sales, people of color in sales, black people that, you know, need the help here and want to get to that next level. We're here for it. So rework training.com rework training.org. If you want to volunteer, looking to hire talent, sales for the culture.com. If you are that talent trying to get to the next level. Well, then that's fantastic. And I mean, look, uh, I know it's usually like to have mentors that other, again, other people can look up to, but if there's anything I can do to help on the mentor side of the house, man, come teach, like, or do a client.

Yeah. Come teach, you know? Yeah. I'll come, I'll come, I'll come, I'll come chat. I'll, I'll come talk. You'll do, man. Appreciate you. All right. Shelton. Thanks so much for coming on, man. I love the work you're doing. And, uh, and, and I think you're, you're inspiring people for all the right reasons. Uh, you know, just, just with what you're doing and your story. So the more we tell that story, hopefully the more people can get inspired. So I appreciate what you do. Yeah, man. Thanks for letting me tell it, John. Thanks for letting me tell it. Cool. Absolutely. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for listening as always. And like I always say, look, uh, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Uh, cause no matter how bad your day went, I guarantee if you make somebody smile, you had a good day. So the world needs a lot more of that these days. So thank you all for listening. I'll see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads. And I can't thank you enough to keep the momentum going. If you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it. In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram.

Hit me up there at John Emma's and Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM, and I will get right back to you. I promise. And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year, and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses. I'll be delivering live training the first and second week of every single month with our two marquee courses, filling the funnel and driving a close to anybody who wants to join. And it includes membership in our on-demand platform with weekly AMAs. So you can go to jbarrows.com slash open to check out the details. Thanks again and have a great day.