Jenna Rogers: Elevating the conversation around diversity at work

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Jenna Rogers is absolutely one of those people. She's the vice president of growth at Sales Academy and the founder of her own company called Career Civility, where she focuses on training, educating, and improving communication in the workplace. The majority of this conversation centered around diversity, and with her unique biracial background, we got into some real interesting topics. One was the difference between cancel culture and accountability, which I thought was a fantastic way of looking at what's going on right now.

We discussed things like getting the right people in the right room to have this discussion, the generational divide, male advocacy, and also tactical ways to approach this type of conversation in the workplace. I really believe the only way we can make any improvements around equality and diversity is to have these type of discussions out loud and be open to learning and growing together. Jenna is someone I learned a lot from in this real brief conversation, and I hope you do too. Let's make it happen. What's happening, Make It Happen family? Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes.

Vidyard makes it easy for people to use videos anywhere. No matter whether you're sending videos in email or on social media, posting them somewhere, or sending them in a DM, Vidyard has got you covered. Our friends at Chili Piper are so much fun to be around. They make it easy for people to get on your calendar. And every sales rep has got to have this function locked in. It's one of the most important things we can do as a seller. How can I get you on my calendar easily? Chili Piper can make that happen for you. Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. Jenna Rogers, welcome to the podcast.

How are you today? Thank you for having me. It's Tuesday. I would say Tuesdays are the worst day of the week, but today I'm great. Love it. Love it. Yeah. I don't even know what day these days. I don't even really pay attention to what day. I remember when COVID first hit, somebody was asking me. I'm like, I vividly remember on a Tuesday, as a matter of fact, I said to my wife, oh man, I can't believe today's Friday. And she's like, you do know it's Tuesday, right? I'm like, shut up. No, it's not. No, it's not. We started calling them blurs days. So blur days, right? Just everyday blurs days. It's just one long Tuesday. Just one long Tuesday. So Jenna, I'm looking forward to this conversation.

But before we do, we're going to kind of position it as diversity and inclusion, but really get specific with some of the challenges that we're at today. Because I've had an eye on this, obviously, for a long time. I've seen some improvements, not many. But I also am very aware of my lack of perspective in some cases, right? Just because I am a white male in this world where everything was basically built for me. And so I'm very curious with everything that's going on, some how we've evolved and how we continue to evolve to make this better for everybody and not just people of diversity, but also individuals and businesses and everything else. But before we get into that, Jenna, you have a very interesting background that I think puts some really cool context to this conversation.

Would you mind sharing with the audience a little bit of where you're coming from and why this is really important for you? Absolutely. Well, outside of being a woman in tech sales, I'm also a biracial woman in tech sales, and I'm a mother as well. So it's very nuanced in terms of... The DEI conversation is nuanced in general. And then my perspective is also nuanced because there's a lot of different angles that I can perceive it from. And I like to call myself... Professionally, I like to call myself a corp-preneur. So I work in corporate full-time sales, but then I'm also an entrepreneur. And I have my own LLC consulting business where I'm helping individuals and teams communicate more effectively in the workplace.

So whether that's amongst colleagues internally or with clients externally, my goal is to change the conversation in the workplace. Because I really do think that communication is the catalyst for a lot of change. So I appreciate the podcast format as well, because this is the opportunity for us to start having these conversations. Yeah. And I think that's... I think the biggest thing is the willingness to have the conversation out loud. That's the one improvement I have seen is that there is an openness now to having this dialogue, whereas before it was more than uncomfortable to have this dialogue specifically for somebody in your position. And so, you know, how... I mean, your focus is on the conversation, right?

There's two sides of this equation that I'm trying to figure out, right? There's the people without real perspective on it and feeling like the whole world is coming down on them, right? Because they grew up a certain way and they have a certain perspective. And I actually even have the tattoo on my arm. And I believe this wholeheartedly of, you know, when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Yes. And I try to tell people like privilege isn't being, you know, a silver spoon in your mouth. It's not being given anything, right? Privilege is the fact that when I wake up in the morning, I don't have to worry about what I'm wearing today so I don't get sexually harassed.

Privilege is when I drive down the street and I get pulled over by a police officer. I'm not worried about getting shot. And again, those are broad brush strokes. Not all police are bad. You know, I don't want to go down that route, but that's privilege to me, right? And if you don't recognize it, that, you know, being a six foot one white male in America is at the very least an advantage. So that's actually... I'm trying to change going back to dialogue here. I'm actually trying to change the word privilege because I think it comes with such negative and it's almost like my defenses go up immediately. Yeah. But you cannot argue that it's an advantage. And so how are you helping people on...

First of all, from one side, being able to be confident enough to bring this up and address it when they see issues because it's coming after them versus people who have lived a certain way their entire lives and now the world is changing on them and they are very uncomfortable with it. Yep. To the first piece of that question, you know, how am I comfortable and confident in doing this? I'm not always. It is tough. It's something that I have to actively practice every day, but it's also something that I grew up with. So I come from a biracial, bi-political household. So my mom is white. My dad is Black. My mom is a Republican. My dad is a Democrat. And I just grew up observing how cultures can mesh and how conversations can be had and not be had.

So that is something that I spent my childhood almost internalizing two polar opposites. And lo and behold, I grew up into the... Or I grew up into a world of social media and into a world of polarization. And I somehow have this background of knowing how to navigate the two. And in terms of the comfortability, I think a lot of it comes from 1. Listening and 2. Knowing that you're not going to be right. I was never right in the world. I didn't fit in to this bucket. I didn't fit into this bucket. So I got really comfortable being wrong all the time. I never fit in. I just was... I don't know. I'll try and flex here. I will say I got really good at chameleon. Chameleoning, if that's a word. And I always say that I'm able to chameleon under my white privilege because I am light-skinned.

And when I come off, not a lot of people know that I am a black woman. So that is a privilege of mine in today's world. Fortunately and unfortunately. So... Sorry, go ahead. No, I'm sorry. It just pops up. Can I ask you a very uncomfortable question? Sure. One of the reasons I love these conversations is because this is the type of thing that I think people are wondering but don't want to ask, right? So for somebody who looks like you, if somebody's watching this right now, they could easily say, oh, she's white. Without knowing, like she's white. But you identify as black. Would you mind explaining why that's important to you? It's such an interesting question because it's something that I don't think I always did either.

So we're going to have a therapy session and I'm going to ask this right now. I use this as an open therapy session for myself, by the way. Yeah. So I grew up in Tucson, Arizona, which is predominantly a Hispanic community. And so I actually was able to chameleon into the Mexican-Hispanic heritage. And no one really questioned that, I guess. If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me, what are you? I wouldn't need to be in sales. That is a question I grew up a lot. So what are you? My brother and I got that a lot. Sometimes we would just make up things, right? Make a joke about it. So the identity piece has always been really interesting for me, for my family. My dad was adopted into a blonde-haired, blue-eyed family.

So that's another piece of the identity. My dad and I look very similar. I also... When I'm out in the sun, I could get multiple shades darker. So it's something that has fluctuated throughout my life. When I moved to Chicago, people would ask me, what are you? And I'd be like, oh, I'm originally from Arizona. They're like, oh, that makes sense why you're so tan. And I'm like, actually, no, it's because I'm black. Right? So just... It's always been... And even now you can see me shifting in my seat. It's been an uncomfortable... Identity has always been an uncomfortable topic because I don't know how it's going to land when I tell people. And that's the sad reality. It has not been until I've become more comfortable and confident in my own identity that I'm like, I'm a biracial woman.

I'm black. I'm black and I'm white. And I've had to learn how to step into that power. I love that. And I think that it's interesting that what I'm sure was challenging for you growing up as a child and dealing with it and kind of almost making a joke out of it because you had to, to now almost it's a superpower for you because to your point, you were able to absorb both sides and see. And so therefore your unique ability to have this conversation is now benefit. But it's got to be brutal growing up like with people asking you those questions. And I've always wondered, you know, these are people that I think a lot of people come with good intentions, but they ask dumb questions. So for instance, I've always found it insulting to say like, nobody has ever come up to me by the way and said, so where are you from?

Like, you know what I mean? What's, what's your background? I, other than Boston, you know what I mean? Oh, you were like, where do you live? Oh, Boston. Right. But nobody's ever been like, Oh, are you, are you European? Are you Irish? Are you? But for some reason when there's a shade on somebody, it's like, Oh, you know, where are you from? And the from isn't town. It's like, like some weird outside country type of thing. So how you've, I'm, I'm, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm guessing you've dealt with that a lot. Yeah, for sure. How do you deal with the ignorance, well-intentioned ignorance, I guess, if, if for people, again, going back to people who have lived a certain way for a very long time, because I feel like things are changing so fast right now that, and people are not good with change.

And so generationally, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. I think we're on the cusp of the ones who are starting to be okay, you know, like can't handle the fast moving, but anybody older than, you know, 50 years old right now is like fucking a, like, I don't, I don't know what happened. I don't know what to call people at this point. So they're, they're genuinely asking questions, but they're, they're to a certain degree, ignorant questions. So how do you handle somebody like that is asking questions that, that is, that are insulting, but they're not malicious? Yeah, it's a great question. And that's the premise of career civility. The business that I'm building is that there is a human on the other end of every conversation.

So if you can recognize that when you're in these heated arguments, or when a question is being asked to take that beat and be like, okay, that was stupid, but like, there's something else there. Right. Um, and again, this isn't like, it's something that I had to learn even, you know, hearing things that my grandmother would say when we would go out to breakfast in Champaign, Illinois, and the bussers were black and she'd be like, oh, they're such hard workers. And you're just like, my dad and I, and this, I was like 10. Right. And I still just kind of like, what? My dad and I would like look at each other and be like, like, as if they wouldn't be like, what? So, but I'm not going to like go off and be like canceling my grandma.

Right. Like there are still things that she does in a loving manner. And that was like, that comment was totally ignorant. It's something that sat with me for how many years, decades since then. Um, but I'm not going to write her off as someone who I'll never talk to again and she doesn't get it. And I'm going to polarize myself from her. Have we lost the benefit of the doubt? Because when I say this, I'll give you a quick example. Um, Matt Damon. Okay. A little wise. He's from Boston around my age, right? That type of thing. Um, and he was telling this story on a news, uh, where he got interviewed where, and he brought up the story unprompted. Um, so I think he was trying to help educate based on his own education.

Apparently he was at his dinner with his daughter and he used the F word. And I don't mean fuck. I mean the gay, you know, a slur against homosexuals. Right. And, and he said it and it, and, and to be very direct, like here in Boston growing up, I use that word, like it was going out of style. You know what I mean? I use that word. I use the word retard. Like it was, but it had nothing to do with what it was just something we said. Right. And, and so now I learned back when I was 15, that that was a bad word to say, cause it offended some people. So part of me is like, all right, Matt, like you're you're 45 years old. The fact that you're still like the fact that you didn't know that was a bad word.

I'm a little suspect here, but what he was explaining was his daughter was like, daddy, you can't use that word. And, and he was like, really? Why? And she explained to him why it was offensive and all this other stuff. So he's telling this story about his own personal growth and how he learned from his daughter that that was a bad word, even though that was something he grew up and was so ingrained in his vocabulary that it didn't even register. And he got eviscerated online. Like people shredded him for being like, you, you know, how dare you? And it's like, here's a guy who, yeah, probably should have known better, but was trying to have an open conversation to help people say, Hey, I'm learning here.

And maybe other people can learn too. And he got destroyed. Have we lost the benefit of the doubt? Because now it's like, if I say something like here's the one I personally struggle with the pronoun stuff, like they, I am desperately trying to figure out they, because I don't, I don't understand. And I'm, I'm, I'm as open as I can possibly be about my conflict of understanding. Right. But I'm almost scared to have the conversation for being ripped apart for being insensitive. And now all of a sudden it's like, I don't want to try anymore. And I'm not saying I don't, cause I, I, I'm always trying, but how, how do you address that, that, that such the visceral fuck off. If you're, if you do anything wrong, I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And soon like you did that there's a person there and they just might be misinformed. So let me educate versus that's a jackass. And I'm not even going to try. You know what I mean? That's where, um, have we lost the benefit of the doubt? Yes. If you are online, anything on social media, we have lost the benefit of the doubt. I do think that it is a, while they are loud, it is a smaller percentage who are not giving the benefit of the doubt online. Those who are giving the benefit of the doubt and those who are relating or scrolling, they're moving on, right? Like they're not spending their energy engaging with that. Um, however, I think the, and I've written about this in terms of cancel culture, uh, I'm not one to hop on the cancel culture train, but I do vehemently believe in accountability.

And so if he were out in conversations again, using that word or in an interview using that word, and clearly that was a very, um, performative story to move him forward as an individual, that's the differentiation. Um, you need to be held accountable. And then you also need to take onus and improve yourself moving forward. So again, nuanced question, because all of it is, but that's how I delineate between benefit of the doubt and holding people accountable. I think that's, and I think that's important to the cancel culture versus accountability. And I think there's a much different, there's a big difference between those two. I am all for accountability, but I feel like the cancel culture is, is, is almost, um, creating a negative, uh, impact to this because it's forcing other people to just roll their eyes at almost anything and not try anymore.

So, you know, it's, it's such a weird balance in the, and I think you're, you're spot on as far as it's a small percentage, but they're so fucking loud. I know. You know what I mean? On both sides, they're so loud. And so it's, it's like having this conversation, I'll give you a, yeah. I mean, I was down this weekend. I won't say who it is. Um, but I went down this weekend, um, to, uh, to somebody who is in my space and is a hardcore right wing Trump supporter and I am not. And, but we found common ground and we were able to have real conversations. And what I kept coming back to him because him and his wife were there and we were having conversations and they were telling me I was an idiot and I was telling them they were an idiot and all this other stuff.

It was fine. But what, what I really kept realizing was the broad brushes that they kept speaking in all you Democrats, you know, all you're all. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. It isn't a black or white thing. It isn't a Democrat or Republican thing. There are nuances to all of it. And I think once you get to that level, most people are pretty damn close. Like as we started to peel back the issues. Yeah. There were some that we were like, go fuck yourself on that one. Right. But, but there was others where it was like, yeah, actually we agree. Yeah. We agree on abortion at a certain, we agree on gun control at a certain, you know what I mean?

So it's like, it's this broad brush piece. So let's go tactical internally here. Yeah. Say you're at your job right now and you're not a white male. Um, and you have a white male boss who is well-intentioned, but blind to a lot of the microaggression, a lot of the, just the, you know, thinks that saying stuff is funny, whatever. And it's not overtly sexist. It's a not overtly racist, but the undertones are there. And he kind of couches it as, oh, come on. You know what I mean? Like, well, stop being so sensitive. I'm a good guy. I have black friends, you know, that type of guy. Right. If you are in that situation and I'm the boss, okay. And you're uncomfortable, but I don't even know it. How do you approach me?

Is this in person via zoom? Let's do it in person. And then let's do the, let's do the zoom version of this, but say it's the office and, you know, and I'm like walking around and, you know, Hey everybody, you know, whatever day saying dumb shit. And, and, and you're just like every day, you just kind of like, Oh God, man. I just wish he wouldn't say that. Like he's, you know, 80%. He's pretty legit, but there's just that 20% that I just have to button up because I don't want to be known as a complainer. Totally. Um, so how I would approach it is you do have to be very strategic with this because to your point, you can't be a complainer. You don't want to put a target on your back. And I don't want this to be perceived as being complacent, um, or compliant with it as well, but especially as a biracial female in the workplace, you really have to pick and choose your battles.

So my recommendation here is take out a note on your phone and start documenting every scenario and situation. Um, that honestly is just a little therapeutic for yourself. If you don't journal, um, just take, you know, pull out a notepad, um, and just write it down. Uh, make sure that the notepad is secure. Maybe you don't like date who said it. Right. Um, but, but write it down, get it out of your head because it will eat you alive. Um, so that's the first thing, like write it down. The second thing is decide if you want to expend energy on this, because while I could come in here and say, you know, fight the good fight, challenge everything, come in there, like stand your ground. This is very emotionally taxing for people who are other, um, people who are minorities.

And you need to make that decision. If this is something you want to spend energy on. So write it down, evaluate if you want to address it and spend energy on it, then evaluate how you can do this and where you would most feel safe doing this. If you have it written down, you have examples, um, or if one example pops up and you're ready to expend the energy, you need to figure out the channel where you'd be able to voice this without being, uh, made fun of, without being fired, without having any consequences or repercussions come your way. If you work at a larger organization, maybe that's HR. If you work at a smaller organization, maybe it's just your coworker. Figure out a safe space where you'd be able to bring this forward.

Um, the fourth thing I would recommend is if you really want to be bullish about this, wait until there is a opportunity in a meeting, an email, a water cooler talk, and know how you're going to push back or know how you're going to confront it. Uh, so those would be my four tips as to how you can approach it, address it, and then hopefully maybe light the match for a little bit of change. Yeah. And I think that's, I think this goes to the, the benefit of the doubt of like giving that person a little bit of the run of the doubt that they're just ignorant and they don't know any better. And if you can approach them to highlight some of that stuff and they make changes, then you're fantastic. Right.

But if they don't, then, you know, you start to understand where you work, um, and who you work for and therefore maybe where else you want to work. Cause I remember when we did our, um, we need to talk webinar, you know, one of the questions was like, what do you do when your, your boss is overtly sexist or whatever it is? And I'm like, quit. I go, cause there's no, there's the likelihood of you changing an overtly sexist person, not high. So going back to your emotional, like the amount of emotion that it would take to, to address that probably not worth it. And so that's where you just got to go find a company that realigns with your values and everything else, which I think is hopefully something that's happening right now with what happened with COVID is that a lot of people are, are, are kind of reassessing what's important to them and looking for opportunities that align with their values and, and, you know, not just money oriented, but really feeling welcome at work.

I think that's a huge part of what's happening right now for the quiet quitting and those types of things as well. Yeah. For the better. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. As, as they should, but let's talk about the, the advocacy here of like the male advocate, right? Cause I think another part of this is recognizing that you're in a somewhat toxic environment and looking for help, uh, that maybe isn't your boss who is the, the, the one who is creating the toxic environment. There's let's talk about both sides of this equation. Um, there's the, the male side of this equation of somebody who wants to help. And then there's, you know, the other side or the white male side of the equation. And then there's the other side of the equation that is looking for advocates that might not necessarily be your boss.

Is it, is it as simple as developing relationships internally and, and, and, you know, typical relationship development to get people on your side to help you with this? Or do you need to be more intentional? I think you need to be more intentional. And my answer might've been different two weeks ago, but I was at an event on Thursday. So I don't know, four days, four business days ago, and it was, uh, a diversity program and phenomenal content, great program. But what really stood out to me and what was really fascinating and honestly, honestly, really disappointing and kind of fired me up is that of the 30 people on this program, two were men. And what was so disheartening for me is that the people who will be able to actually implement the strategies that were taught on that program are men.

And the women are the ones who are caring about it and they don't have a seat at the table or they don't have enough seats at the table to make change. So I do think that being a male advocate, you have to be intentional about it. And then when you think you're being intentional about it, you have to be more intentional about it. And then when you think you're being even more intentional about it, you got to go a level deeper because your intentionality is missing the boat. It's just not there yet. I give everyone, like everyone's human at the end of the day. If you have, everyone has a mother, literally everyone has a mother, regardless of your feelings about your mother, like everyone has a female presence in their life.

So that's where I think if we're all sitting at a table and we're talking about gender equality and inclusion, like you all have a common thread there. Like that's what we need to harness and lean into when we're thinking about these policies, these programs, this intentionality. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if, if all, if everybody's not involved in it, it ain't going to work. And this is actually on the opposite side of that. This is the, I think the part that I'm struggling with is wanting, you know, to your point, like I'm, I'm an advocate. I need to do better. I need to keep, you know, being very conscious of it and intentional, um, because it's easy not to be. Um, but like when, for instance, like me too happened, right.

The me too movement, I was all in on that when it first happened. And I was, I went to some of the marches and everything. And unfortunately though, and this is my experience, I'm not saying this is, you know, how it happened, but my experience was it, it went from pro women to anti-male very, very fast. And, and I would show up to some of these, you know, events and whatever, and all of a sudden just be getting yelled at just because I was a male and I, and, and it made me want to just be like, okay, nevermind. You know what I mean? Like, I'm, I'm not going to stick my neck out here if I'm going to get slaughtered, uh, regardless of my intent. And so I think there's that balance of, you know, including the male voice and the male people who can take action in this.

Um, but not, you know, excluding them because it's a female conversation about the challenges that females and people of color have. And so I think there's an interesting balance of making sure that you get the right people in the room. So how do you help companies do that? Getting the right people in the room, not just the people who are in it, you know, like, cause that's easy. It's like, Hey, who, who, who wants to help? Oh, I do. Okay. But those aren't usually the people that need the help. Exactly. Yeah. How do you get the right people in the room? Well, so I think about it through a couple different lenses. Number one, the people who need to be in the room probably aren't in the room. So how can we get them in the room?

Uh, and to be able to do that there, you know, this goes back to just like sourcing diverse talent. Um, but one of the most impactful things that I actually learned on this training last week was, um, having a, like mentorship coaching sponsorship program set up where if you're in the room, who can you sponsor or who can you mentor? That's not in the room. So that way you can then, because I'm big on, let's elevate voices that are not your own. Like if it is a predominantly, and if our industry tech is predominantly white male, you should be elevating voices that are not in the room right now. And it's like, okay, great. How do I do that? Well, go sponsor someone who's not in the room who would never have a chance to get in the room.

Um, meet them where they're at. Spoiler. They're not, you're not going to find them on LinkedIn, right? Like you, your network is on LinkedIn because that is, uh, homo gen, homo genu. I can never say the word homogenous. Yes. Um, in, in a platform, right? So you have to go outside to meet these individuals where they're at. Um, it's not easy. It's not hard, but I'm big on like elevating your voice, elevating someone's voice. That is not your own. What's up everybody. I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heat. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday.

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That URL one more time is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guests for this week. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but one of my favorite examples of privilege is there's a, uh, a guy who stands on, uh, like out in a field with a whole bunch of people and they're all in the, like, you know, say it's a hundred yards and they're all at the end on the, on the line. And he's like, Hey, I got a hundred bucks here for you. Whoever wins this race, you know, gets a hundred bucks. And so you see everybody get ready to go. Right. And he's like, hold on, hold on. Um, if your parents are still married, take two steps forward. If you didn't have to pay for college, take two steps forward.

If you've never had to worry about where your next meal was coming from, take two steps forward. And he goes through all these things that somebody like me would be like, Oh yeah, I've never had to worry about food. I've never had to worry about this. Right. And so, and what happens is at the end, by the time he's done, there's like two or three white dudes right there, almost right at the finish line and everybody else behind him. And he's like, all right, now go. Who do you think is going to win this race? And that struck me as that's privilege. You know what I mean? That's advantage. And so to be able to give other people that platform and that, that, that ability and be proactive about it, I think is the, is the key part.

I don't think it's any, I don't think it's, it's, I don't think we can, or at least me, I'm going to say this about me. Black Lives Matter made me realize when I woke up about it. It's not okay anymore for me to just say, I'm not a racist. You know what I mean? Like it's not okay just because, you know, well, I'm not a racist. I got black friends, but no, now it's, you have to do something. We need to have momentum in the right direction. And so that's why the intentional piece of this I think is critical. Yeah. And that's where I would say, take your microphone and walk it back to the people who are still at the starting line and hand it to them. Right. What's your experience? I was on a meeting right before we started recording and, um, this woman is starting a nonprofit to help, um, women who come from the foster system actually get on their feet.

And she had said, you know, I want to teach these women. Um, she said, I think what sets us apart or what sets the haves and the have nots apart is exposure. So, you know, it was, it was great. And she's like, I want to teach them the art of possibility. And that it's just so powerful to see another black woman like paying it forward and turning behind her and, you know, bringing someone else with her because she has that experience and because she has that perspective. Is that something I've seen change too? Um, one of the things I noticed was there's a, there is a generational divide, uh, to a certain degree with, um, and, and this was explained to me. I don't want to use the people's names cause I don't want to call them out, but there's, there's the older generation of women and this younger woman who was younger than me.

Um, she was kind of introduced into this dynamic and the two older women kind of almost had this visceral reaction to her being involved. Right. And I even, and I even noticed it. That was weird. Cause I know all three of these women and they're very, very, all of them are incredible. And, but I then talked to the one who was kind of, I don't want to say attacked, but she's like, John, this is what happened. She's like their generation. There was literally maybe one seat at the table for them, maybe. And so it was dog eat dog. I'm going for that table and I can't, you know what I mean? So like, she's like, I don't have any mentors because that generation was, they only had one seat. And so they all fought for that seat and it wasn't collective.

It wasn't collaborative. It was just, nope, screw you. I got to go get that seat. She's like, now my generation kind of around my age, she's like, we're, we're the mentors now for the younger generation, but I never had any. And so do you see, you know, how much is generational, um, uh, indoctrination, if you will, uh, an issue here with the mentality? I think it plays a really big, it plays a really big role in this. And it makes a big impact, especially just in terms of like, well, I had to work for it. Like, fuck you. If I had to work for it, you're going to work for it. Like if I did it, you're going to have to do it. Um, that's it. The seat at the table is absolutely it. Um, you know, now there's this big conversation in the workplace.

Now that Gen Z is getting into the workplace, how different they are from millennials and their work ethic. And, um, to be honest, I'm here for it. Like I stand for Gen X because I think about it from that perspective, right? Like if I grow up on this polarized perspective, I see the same thing happening in the workplace with generations. So I see, you know, um, the boomers, they, there were no women in the workplace, right? Like the woman stayed at home. She was the homemaker. Um, they focus solely on everything at home. So that way the man could focus on work, you know, one track mine. Um, Jen, Jen X was the first generation to come in and introduce work-life balance because both men and women were working and they both needed to pick their kids up from school and soccer practice.

So they then introduced work-life balance. Millennials came in and introduced this idea of, um, like I would say they doubled down on balance. I think it's kind of backfired on us a little bit recently. Um, because now we're like checking our email before we go to bed and like first thing when we wake up, but they, you know, they really challenged that you don't need to be in an office, you know, full-time and that you can, um, work remote and that you can fit your work around your lifestyle. And Jen, Jen Z is coming in here. Like I got boundaries. I'm not working all the time. Like there, every single generation has challenged the status quo and guess what? It's moved the needle forward. So that's where I come in as to like, on one hand, I understand the effort and the, the resilience that it took to get to where you're at.

And on the other hand, it's like, there could be a better way for us to do this. And maybe we could learn from each other. Right. Um, because maybe that boomer or that Jen X, if they learn a secret from the Gen Z, they won't have to spend twice as long getting to that spot as Gen Z does and vice versa. Yeah. It's, it's the amount we can learn from each other is if we're open to it, I remember, and this is, it's a bummer. My, my buddy, uh, we used to go to the Patriots. You know, we had, um, season tickets and his dad would sit there every time. Cause it was his dad's season tickets and we were young and we were idiots. We were all just getting drunk and beer pong and all that stuff. And he would just sit there with his, um, you know, newspaper and he would read and I would, Hey, Joe, how's it going?

Right. But I would never, it was Jeremy's dad. That's who he was. And, uh, and I remember he passed away and, uh, his wife wrote his obituary and I read his obituary and I was so like, ah, damn it. Because it was like, he was an entrepreneur. He was, you know, he, he had two venture capital firms that he was running. He like the experience and being an entrepreneur myself. It, I mean, I had somebody sitting next to me every single Sunday who, if I had spent 10 minutes just trying to learn from him, I probably would have expedited my, my growth as a, as a professional and a person tenfold, just by a 15 minute conversation with him and his experience. But we tend to disregard that experience. Why do you think that is?

Why do you think that, especially here in the States, we disregard age and experience compared to other generations? Have you ever heard that, that thing where like, if somebody's drowning, there's a child, a mother and a grandparent, right? And they're all drowning. You can only save one. And there's this thing about how different countries respective, right? So the, here in the U S it would be to save the baby because the baby hasn't had a life yet. Right. Whereas in other cultures, no, say the grandmother because she's wisdom, right? Those, and you can always have another baby type of scenario. So why do you think we disregard experience so much and, and look to continuously make the mistakes based on a lack of knowledge of our history?

We're scared. It's uncomfortable. Um, imagine if that, you know, your friend's father, there is multiple of those gold mines in every organization and they're just not tapped into. And I think, I, I do think, you know, again, going back to giving the benefit of the doubt, I think that we are too focused on revenue or too focused on, you know, our monthly goals, our quarterly goals. We don't have time to take off the floor to go ask someone to get coffee. I don't know that I'm like, maybe they'll be, maybe they'll be able to help me. Maybe I'll be able to help them. I don't know, but it's 30 minutes off the floor and I need to make these cold calls or I need to chase this contract. That's not priority in our day to day.

And it's because the business doesn't incentivize those actions. So we're scared that that is not priority in a business setting. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I think there's so much, I mean, what's the work that you do with clients? Walk me through some of the, like the, the more complex conversations you've had. Yeah. Uh, so what's really, what's really interesting, um, is that I actually started doing this before I even launched my LLC and I kind of did it like covertly at organizations. I've always been a communication like fiend. Um, but when I worked at an organization, I think, I think I was getting my master's at this point. Cause I went back to get my master's in communication to springboard my LLC.

You know, I needed that extra credibility as a woman. Like I need more credentials for people to take me seriously, which was a pretty penny. Um, but anyways, I was at my last organization. It was Q3, our biggest quarter that was, um, ending in December and we didn't do well. Um, and so we had like a, you know, rally cry team meeting in the conference room one day and our manager was basically just trying to like figure out like what, why are our team, why is our team missing? What's going on? And as I sat there, you know, again, just listening and observing, I decided to ask a question. I said, well, what's everyone's definition of a team? Is it that we're all working together towards one goal?

Or is it that we all have individual goals and we're working together to help each other accomplish them? And the team was split 50 50. And so that really uncovered, there was like a fundamental disconnect in the team dynamics as to what we were trying to accomplish, which resulted in us just kind of fumbling the ball. Right. Um, excuse my boys club term and sports analogy, but you know, we just talked about the Patriots game. So, um, it's top of mind. And that's the type of work that is that that's where I lean in. Those are the conversations that I have to help people understand that you might not be on the same page right now, but you can be, you might not be successful working together right now, but you can be, you might be nervous to work with this individual, but they actually could make you more productive and more successful.

Um, this is really scary to break these barriers and to give control and give power to someone who has lesser experience or someone who looks different than you, but different doesn't necessarily mean bad. So different definitions. I didn't peg either one of those as being like, Oh, well, you're the problem in this team. It's like, no, now this is great information to use so we can all come together and help each other accomplish our goals and hit the team goal. Right. Um, so that's the work that I do is really getting down to the interpersonal workings of teams specifically in the workplace, because too often it is just, it is swept under the rug. It is business. It is not personal. It is business.

We are here to chase a number. And I vehemently disagree with that because you wouldn't be able to chase that number if you didn't have people working for you. Yeah. Well, and also, and I'm sure you have more insight on this than I do, as far as it's not just a good thing to do. It's actually really beneficial from a bottom line standpoint. Like from what I understand, diverse teams excel and succeed far more than not than, than homogeneous teams. You know what I mean? So this isn't just a, Oh, you know, let's, let's make everybody feel good and make everybody feel like this is like the new strategy moving forward into the new world about how you can X excel. Right. Yep. I don't necessarily know if that lands, unfortunately.

Um, really? Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I'm sorry to talk over you. I was just going to say there is, there are so many studies about it and I don't think that's what's going to make the change. I don't think that's what's going to move the needle. Uh, I don't exactly know what is unfortunately. That's why, you know, I'm thankful that you are giving this platform and the microphone so that way we can have this conversation, elevate the conversation. Um, but I think that a lot of people operate in the, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And they don't think it's broken. People like us, like me, we know it's broken because we're, we are struggling every day and we're trying to figure out ways to be valued in the workplace and to be paid accordingly.

Unfortunately, we feel it every day, but those who are in power, um, and who are in the norm do not feel it. So it's not broken to them. Hmm. Yeah. It's sad that sometimes it's like almost like an existential threat that has to occur in order for someone. I don't want you to happen. Like that scares me too. Right. Totally. Right. Like, you know, you're forced to do it because of, you know, public pressure or whatever it is. And that's always a, you know, like you're supposed to do the right thing when nobody's looking versus doing the right thing only because, um, yeah, I mean, I think that, uh, we got a long way to go. Um, what are some things, uh, let's finish up with kind of tactically, you know, what are some things that people can do to keep this conversation, uh, keep elevating this conversation and keep, you know, trying to break through these barriers is, is, are there some very tactical things or places that you can tell people to go learn a little bit more about or reflect on or any of that stuff?

Yeah. Um, I, there are a lot of resources out there. Um, the diversity movement is one of my favorite resources that I've worked with in the past. They do webinars, they have white papers, they have all the data. Um, they also deliver the content. Um, if you need help having conversations in the workplace, like myself, obviously as a resource. Um, the other thing is, you know, be mindful of the conversations that you're having in the workplace and how you are approaching situations and be mindful of being performative versus being action oriented because there is, could you explain? Yeah. There's a difference between saying, I really want to hear your opinion and I value your perspective and taking action on the opinion and perspective that was shared.

And to your point, when we've made progress, I think that, you know, we're hosting webinars and we're doing panels and we're doing all that. And then there's like, cool. Thanks for your story. Thanks for your opinion, but we're still going to do it my way. Um, so be very mindful of that. If you're going to ask for someone's perspective and opinion, you might want to be ready to put it into practice because if you're not, don't ask it. Well, so on that note, what's one thing, for instance, I could put into practice. I know you don't know a ton about me or my interactions, but outside of using my platform to elevate the conversations, um, what would be one thing that you could say somebody who's well-intentioned who I think is empathetic, you know, like my empathy journey was my mom, you know, I think my mom raised me right.

Um, but then when I had my daughter, I was like, Holy shit. Um, wait a minute here. And then you, then the, the, we need to talk webinar really woke me up because we did a survey to everybody. And I recommend everybody go check this out. Um, cause we didn't want to preach, right? It was me and these three other women. And we weren't going to say, Oh, this is just to your point, like webinar, whatever. Um, we asked people, Hey, what's, it's an anonymous survey. It's a Google doc. What's one question that you're afraid to ask, um, in the workforce, what's one example of something that isn't blatantly obvious that would be kind of like, huh? And then what's a positive thing like that you've seen make a difference.

And when I read the, when I read all the comments of the, the things that happen, um, I, I almost started crying because I was like, shit, cause it's never the macro. It's never the, the overt, it's all these microaggression things that pile up and everything else. And so I tell every male who thinks they don't have a problem in their organization, go read that. Tell me that that's not happening in your organization. Cause it was, I know what's happening. It was happening in mine. You know what I mean? Like I, I'm that guy, like, Oh, everybody likes John. He's a good guy and all, but you know, but then every once in a while I'll say, Oh, you know, something off color or y'all go to the party or whatever it is, but I'm a good guy.

Right. So like, no, like, so, and I could tell that probably the women at that time just sat there and just probably shake their head. And it was like, Jesus, John, like, you know, we love you, but man, stop like, but I'm not going to say anything because he's a good. So I point people to that. So somebody like me who thinks I'm empathetic, but has a long way to go from a journey standpoint. Um, what's an action that I could take right now from your perspective that you, that might be unique that, uh, I might not be thinking of, um, okay. Off the cuff answer. Uh, now that in-person events are back, it is, it's like a hunting ground for women. I, I, so when I started out in my sales career, you know, you're, you, part of sales is like whining and dining clients.

Right. And the amount of times that, you know, I'd be at a happy hour or at a dinner or at a lunch and the insinuation of the client relationship being more than it is. And I mean, I had, I, cause you know, in downtown Chicago, a lot of the like nice bars are in hotels and how many times there were people like, should I charge it to the room? And I'm like, Oh my, I'm literally 22 years old. I just started my career. Like he's 58. Like what's going on. Um, so being aware of the dynamic and especially when alcohol is involved, I mean, and this, by the way, this happened a couple months ago, uh, when I was at a work dinner, like getting winked at across the table, like just thing like these things happen.

So when you're, uh, I guess my recommendation would kind of be like, put your like big brother coat on, not like the show, but like if you actually were a brother and you had a younger sister and, and if that's happening, like pull someone out of the conversation or ask, Hey, I don't know, ask like, maybe we can think of questions to ask to have that. But, you know, women always have their, their thumb on the button of their phone so they can press it five times. That way it calls someone or they always have their finger on an alarm. So if you could take that approach when you're back at these in-person events and be on high alert, as opposed to glossing it over, because these things are happening right under, like I was literally sitting at a table with 12 other people and someone was winking at me across the table.

And I was like, does no one else see this? So that would be my recommendation. Totally off the cusp. Maybe not something that you ever thought No, I love it because you're right. You know, I think there's, everybody's excited to be back together, but that's a, that could be a good thing and a bad thing. You know what I mean? Because there are, you know, unfortunately I've, I've learned more than I want to about certain people in our industry who are dirtbags. You know what I mean? And are just because they, they stock, they say, you know what I mean? They do it or like at the bar. So it's just that person. So it's their word against theirs. And that person's more popular than they are. So they can't say anything type of scenario.

And it's like, Oh, you know, like when you have a perception of somebody and then you hear that, you're like, Oh, I know. But yeah, I think, I think it just boils down to intent. You know, I think you're right. You know, it's being, being intentional, being conscious of it and, and being open to knowing to the, to your point, like, you know, I don't know everything, you know what I mean? Like I'm, we're all on a journey to try to get better here every day. And so hopefully we give people the benefit of the doubt a little bit, at least give a chance to benefit the doubt with accountability, you know, like mean dish, sad dish. Yep. I love that. Awesome. Well, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation.

Yeah. Um, where, where can people find out more, uh, information about what you're doing about, you know, any of that? So how to connect with you or any of that? Absolutely. Uh, career civility is my passion. So if you are looking to have more, uh, impactful conversations in the workplace, uh, I help with email writing right now, there's the theme of salary conversation and asking for a raise. Um, so all tough conversations to have in the workplace, all nuanced, something that you're not taught in the workplace. So at career civility on Instagram, I don't really post on LinkedIn, but you can find my personal LinkedIn, Jenna Rogers. Perfect. Yeah. And actually that, that salary thing, that's a real thing.

You know, that, that stat of when a man applies for a job, he's like 60, if he looks at 60% of it, he's like, yep, I got this. When a woman applies, she has to be like a hundred percent of all the things. So literally how you even write the job description, but then to your point of going and asking for the raise, I, we got to, I, most dudes ask for raise, even if they suck at what they do, whereas women have to excel at the highest level. And then they don't, they just hope that hope they'll get a raise from, you know, somebody who's paying attention and that has to change. That's it. I know. I was pretty naive in thinking that, uh, in sales, men and women had equitable pay. And now, yeah, that was, I wasn't sorely, uh, misinformed on that front.

So, cause I was like, everyone talks about their conversation in sales. Like I know. Yeah, but wrong. Ah, well, we can only do what we can as far as keep keeping the conversation going, Jenna. Right. And hopefully, yeah. Handing the microphone to me, sharing some time with me today. I really do appreciate it. Um, thank you. Yeah, no problem. Thank you for doing what you do and dealing with you, with what you have to deal with. And it's not funny, but it, you know, you can't laugh. You have to laugh about it, right? I was going to say, if you can't laugh about it, you go crazy. So awesome, Jenna. Well, thank you so much again. And look, everybody, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

And, uh, you know, again, just be intentional, right? It's no longer okay to sit on the sideline and say, well, just because I'm not, that's okay. Um, be more intentional about making a difference, pay it forward with your privilege. Um, and just like I said all the time, you know, go out there and make somebody smile today because no matter how bad your day goes or how bad you think it went, if you made somebody smile today, you know, you had a good day and the world means a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests.

We're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads. And I can't thank you enough to keep the momentum going. If you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it. In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM and I will get right back to you, I promise. And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses. I'll be delivering live training the first and second week of every single month with our two marquee courses, filling the funnel and driving a close to anybody who wants to join.

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