Joaquim Lecha: AI's Role in Personalized Customer Engagement

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Now, this is a very special week since I'm going to be attending and speaking at HubSpot's inbound conference in Boston all week. Now, because of this, we decided to do a HubSpot takeover of the podcast with my good friend, Russell Bradley Cook, who's actually the senior app partner manager over at HubSpot. And he's going to be talking to some of the leading CEOs in the tech industry about the future of sales and where sales is going, especially in this world of AI.

We're going to release these episodes daily, so make sure you tune in and let me know what you think. Let's make it happen. Hi, John. Thanks for the intro. I'm Russell Bradley Cook, and I'm thrilled to be a part of this. As John mentioned, he's at Boston at our annual inbound conference, and I'm going to be bringing you not one, but five episodes this week featuring the CEOs of top software companies with integrations on the HubSpot's marketplace. They are Seismic, Sixth Sense, G2, Chili Piper, and Typeform, talking about how AI is being used by their sales and marketing teams and in their product, as well as the future of sales and partnerships. Thank you very much for joining us. You can join John and I on LinkedIn with hashtag JBSales and hashtag Let's Make It HubSpot Monday.

Let's kick it off. Kim, welcome to the Make It Happen podcast with John Barrows. Obviously, I'm not John. I'm Russell Bradley Cook, HubSpot Senior App Partner Manager, and delighted to have you here to represent Typeform. The HubSpot podcast takeover for Make It Happen is really designed to help sales execs get the C-level view. And one of the big trends that I see is PLG encroaching on what was traditionally enterprise sales. And I also see similar things, dynamics on marketing. And so very, very glad that you could join. Typeform, one of the giants in PLG. And so thank you very much. Welcome to Make It Happen. Thank you, Russell. It's truly my pleasure to be here. Great. And so I'd love to understand a little bit about your personal journey as CEO, but also maybe before that, if you can give a high-level view for folks who don't know Typeform, fundraising, key clients, kind of key overview, employees globally, that kind of thing.

Yeah. So what is Typeform? Maybe first. Typeform is the very, very best way for businesses to collect zero-party data from their most valued audiences. And zero-party data is the information, the data that is provided directly by a person, by a human. And I believe this bit is very, very important because zero-party data combined with other sources of data is what truly provides a good understanding of those audiences' behaviors and needs and wants and expectations. And I say it's the very best because from the customer perspective, the creator, we call them creators, it's very versatile. It can be used almost for anything. It integrates with more than a hundred different other softwares in the tech stack.

And it's highly customizable. And so that they can express who they are, they can stand out from the competition by making sure that it shows as they want, right? With their logos and their backgrounds and phones and everything else. But, and this is also very important, it's uniquely designed from the very beginning to provide the best respondent experience. And that's a key difference for us. Because we always thought that the person contributing the data is dedicating time and providing the valuable information. We need to respect that. We need to provide this person, every person doing that with the greatest experience. And, and that's our best way of helping our customers as well. So that's who we are.

So think about any that we are. So today we have hundreds of thousands of users. We have more than 150,000 paying customers. We are around 310 people. And, and we have, um, these customers of us to collect more than 500, uh, million completed submissions, right? So we, we are already at, at a certain scale and, uh, we are very, very happy. Although we still have a long way to go. Definitely. There's room for everybody has room for improvement. That's, uh, we're, we're, uh, just even at HubSpot, this, the, the, um, view of kind of, we're, we're, we're, we're just getting started and, uh, we've got another 10 years. So, um, I'm, I really appreciate that, that context. And, and for you personally, Typeform has also been, been a journey that, that you started, uh, originally in Spain and then you've moved to the West coast.

Uh, how, how has that been for, for you, for you, for your family, for the business, the move itself, um, it's been great. So we, we landed here, uh, a bit more than a year ago. And, um, the main reason was business. Everybody, uh, will say, you know, you're going to be fine. You are engaged with Typeform. There's going to be a lot of activities. Very, very importantly is, um, how your wife and your daughter, how your family is, is, is gonna, is gonna experience that. And, and luckily we are very, very happy. Uh, we, we, we feel we are well integrated and well adapted. So, um, it's been relatively easy, um, if I, if I may say so. And then also from a professional perspective, um, what the Bay Area has and, and, and to my way of thinking is, is kind of a special place is for the very, very high density of, uh, highly talented and, and experienced and smart.

And also diverse people that, that, that, that I can meet. So, um, having great conversations and, and, and also talking about, um, about Typeform. And so Typeform can continue helping customers, partners, and, and so on. So it's, it's been really great. Um, this, this has been only a year now, um, a bit more than a year. I've been with Typeform since, uh, August 31st of 2018. Um, it's a very specific day because my birthday is September 1st. And I wanted to, uh, give myself a present, which was a new project, something exciting, right? And I had been, uh, looping and I was ready for my next challenge in 2018. Um, 2018. And I had, uh, met, uh, at the end of 2017, David and Robert, the co-founders of Typeform.

And Typeform was a perfect fit for me. So I loved, uh, the vision, um, that vision of being the interface of it, right? So making those asynchronous online interactions, um, human, right? So full of empathy and, and, and, and, and conversation, right? As, as human-like as possible, right? And, and that can apply to everyone, everywhere in the world. So I, I love that very broad vision. And, and I really liked, uh, David and Roberta. I knew, um, I, I already had a lot of experience working. So I had been working already for more than 20 years before I joined Typeform. And, and I already knew that I could work, uh, for, and, and with David and Roberta. So that was a great, um, of a feeling that I had.

And also I could see at that point, at that stage, how I could contribute, right? So, and so now it's been, um, well, close to five years. So it's been a great journey. Nice. It's been, it's been, it's been a good project. And, uh, one of the things which I have, I have a question for you, um, just not the easiest question maybe that I'll, that I'll ask today, but CEOs are often perceived as being all powerful. Um, and I was wondering for you, uh, what is impossible? So if, if we think about, um, the company, the team, our project together, and especially from a mindset, no, it is, it is my mindset that generally nothing is, uh, impossible, right? Right. Everything that is at the end, a great achievement requires, uh, focus and consistent efforts, hard effort, hard work.

And, and so I would say also sometimes time, right? So things do not happen overnight. So I, I, I think it's a combination of that purpose that brings us together with grit and a bit of patience, right? For, for things to happen. But, but in general, um, everything is possible. And I would say that if the mindset is the opposite one, then it's a big waste of time thinking, you know, whether this will be possible or not. And I would say a lot of, uh, human accomplishments, like, I don't know, landing in the moon or, or building the transcontinental training in the U S. Um, I've been reading a lot about the U S units as a way of learning where I'm living and trying to integrate better. So, uh, I think a lot of these things, um, would have not happened, right?

Because people will be just discussing whether it's possible or not. So I think that that mindset is absolutely crucial. And then at the same time, one person alone, so a CEO or not, uh, I don't think it's enough, right? So you, you need a team and, and, and then, um, you know, the team always elevates the individual, a good team with good dynamics. We elevate the individual, uh, we help the individual achieve things that the individual alone would not be able to achieve. Fantastic. I, um, speaking of helping the individuals, um, I thought that was really interesting that you talked about, uh, the product being human-like and that as we, uh, for, for me, I'm thinking like, what is the next role for sales?

Uh, that we have a huge shift going on, uh, with technology. You have a huge shift going on in the economy plus AI. And so seeing forms, taking on, uh, surveys, taking that product, having a more human-like experience, uh, is, is really exciting. And so I'm, I'm, I'm curious, uh, how you see AI within your old product, um, for the next kind of 12 to 18 months. Yeah. So AI, I mean, it's, it's a great topic, right? And we, we can talk about it. My, my vision of AI or, or my understanding of AI is, um, a great transformation, a platform technology that will greatly transform, um, well, uh, a lot of areas in, in our lives and businesses. I, I would say it's, it's, it's also, we are starting to, to see a bit of that singularity, right?

When, when you have a lot of data and, and, and a lot of, um, uh, cloud computational capacities and, and all of that bringing together, uh, those and, and making ever more powerful, those, uh, algorithms, mathematical algorithms. And, and, and as a personal note as well. So I, I would say it connects with me because, um, I, I finished the studying in 1997. I only went back for a short period to Stanford or the Stanford executive program in 2017, but I finished studying in 1997. And, uh, my final paper was, uh, predicting credit scoring using neural networks, right? So, and, and back then it was a piece of software added to Excel. And, uh, we would use, uh, I would use a number of, uh, financial ratios of 250 companies to train the model.

And then provide another 250 companies with eight ratios and say, okay, if this gives you A, AAA, AA, or B, what should this be, right? And, and so that, that was already back then. And, and, and now with, uh, as I said, uh, great computational power, uh, data and, and, and everything on the cloud, this kind of brings, brings this together. So in terms of our product, I think it's the greatest opportunity for Typeform to be what Typeform has always wanted to be, right? So Typeform always wanted to be this interface of internet and a very human-like, and, and, and in that sense, a very conversational, very personalized, um, type of interaction online and asynchronous. Because we believe, um, because we believe, um, online and asynchronous gives us, gives our customers a lot of flexibility, right?

Um, and, and, and also to the response. So in, in that sense, uh, we are seeing these technologies, AI, uh, empowering even more our product and to our product, our customers, um, to, to create that human-like, um, as human-as-human as possible conversational type of, uh, interaction, right? And, and, and it, we can go deeper if, if you want in that direction, because, uh, a lot changes. Yeah, I, I think it's, um, everybody is, is, uh, I wouldn't say everybody's at the cutting edge, but we are all still learning, uh, uh, right now. And the, the speed that we have to learn is accelerating, which sometimes, sometimes hurts the head, but I think that is, is really exciting. Um, and again, I think as you talk about it, like becoming the interface with the internet, becoming conversational, uh, being able to happen online and asynchronous.

This is all for me, stuff that traditionally is the domain of salespeople. But at the same time, I see a very strong case that AI is going to give superpowers to sales and marketing people. And so it's, it's, it's, the onus is on salespeople to adopt this. And, uh, so really, really appreciate your, your insight on it. Um, for your own sales and marketing team, I'm curious, are you applying AI currently? Do you have any concrete use cases that you can share? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, and I'll take some of your words as well. I mean, we are all learning, uh, it's, it's, uh, relatively new, um, in, and, and it's very broad in the, uh, possibilities and potential applications. So one of the things that, um, we are doing at Typeform is, is embracing it, uh, you know, um, completely, right.

Uh, from a product perspective and also from an operational, uh, perspective. Um, and even I would say from a product perspective, both from a new features and functionalities, um, in our existing products, but also with a new product formulas, uh, that is, um, AI native, right? So it has been taught, um, not as what can AI add to this, but now with AI, how can I just create it from, from scratch? Yeah. So that's on the, on the, on the product side. And then on the operational side, we have, uh, a number of teams that are already using it. So think of engineering and design and, and, and, and of course the, the product managers themselves as well, not, not for the product, but for their own work.

And, and, and obviously as well for sales and marketing, I would say going down into the areas of sales and marketing that the two very generic, um, kind of, uh, applications are around the content creation. And, and, uh, let's say summarization of big data, right? Um, in content creation, think of things as easy as, or as simple as, uh, copywriting, um, creating blocks. Um, think of, um, trying to get a number of, um, alternatives, uh, of ad campaigns. Right. So I have this ad, I want 20 ads like this. Um, in sales, for instance, uh, we are using it. We're pulling in, um, as many sources of data as, as we can. And we are always learning and adding and using AI to, um, uh, let's say check and A/B test.

If, if the, let's say, um, qualification processes, the lead qualification can be better. Right. So, um, with, with one objective basically is devote our palatable AEs and SDR times to, to the best leads, right? To, to where they can create the most input. Um, so, um, AI as a way also of, you know, using all of that information to improve that, that, the lead flow process, the lead qualification and filtering process. Um, and then for instance, we're using it also for content summarization. So, um, some time ago already, we, we, we developed an internal tool called Taller and we can feed it with, you know, a lot of information also coming from, from the calls and tickets from our customers and, and the emails that they send us.

Um, and then you, you can query and then get, try to get understanding, um, of the customer, the customer need, um, and also even, you know, use it for, for enabling in the next calls, right? So is, is this the best way to answer this question or, or how, how could I answer that question or what kind of questions would be interesting? So we, we are, let's say with button, um, creation and content summarization, uh, there's a number of, uh, very detailed kind of use cases here and there, different themes in marketing assets. Really? I, I love it. Um, I was, so as part of the, uh, HubSpot takeover, I also had the chance to interview Goddard Abel from G2. And one of the things that he sees is, uh, G2 shifting from just purely listings to like full recommendations of this is how to improve your business.

And that, that idea of content summarization of like, how do you summarize an entire category of information, um, and, and providing it in a, in a clear way for, for users and marketers to, to excel at their job is, is really powerful. Yes. Yes. Yes. We will see more and more. Right. So, and, and there's all these very good ideas. So, uh, um, I think that's why, let's say from a CEO perspective, uh, attack form at least, uh, it's let's, let's try to understand it. Let's try to know what's possible today. Let's try to use it and apply it. But, but, but based on the things we want to improve for a customer or for ourselves. So that's, that's the principle, right? So we don't want to create the feature for the sake of creating a feature, or we don't want to use it just for the sake of using it.

It's because we want to improve some and improve something today. Right. So there is a more immediate application. Um, and, and, and then we know that by being closer, we learn, and also, we are also becoming more aware of what might be coming. Right. And because for sure, there's going to be a lot more coming. Definitely. And we'll, we'll certainly see a big wave of early adopters. And then people like the retention and usage of things, because people are not used to it. Um, I, I see a lot of people predicting that the end of Google and people are no longer going to search. And it's from coming from very smart people that I know, like Google has trained people for 15 years. Like you just put in information into this box.

Like, I'm pretty sure like that, that kind of natural, um, behaviors and, and, uh, reactions, uh, is, is very difficult to, to train a billion people to do differently. Yes. Uh, I would say that, um, on, on the one side, predicting is difficult, right? There's, there's this sentence, uh, I think typically economists say, you know, so, uh, predicting is, is very difficult, especially if it's about the future. Right. And, and if that future is not a week, a month or a quarter from now, but maybe five years or 10 years, and then, uh, it's, it's even more difficult. And, and then the second thing that I, uh, that I can see is, um, maybe, um, worries, um, concerns, or let's say not embracing things because of, um, being worried about one's job.

Right. About, um, not being necessarily open or willing to do the effort to change the ways of working. Right. So we've been doing this for a while. Why should we change? Right. So there's always, um, let's say reasons. And I would say, uh, generally, let's say understandable, but in the mid and long term, not necessarily rational reasons, um, that, that might block, uh, let's say people from, from, from moving forward, from, from being open and from, uh, just testing, trying and learning. And learning and new feeds, AI in this case, for instance. Yeah, I, I could definitely see that, that, um, the fear on the part of consumers, but also even on, on the team of not wanting to be the person who accidentally launched the feature that nobody uses or the feature that like caused a massive problem that the company wasn't anticipating.

Anticipating. The CEO had not expected to get an email about that. Uh, and that's a good point. Right. So I think that in that, uh, uh, willingness and openness to try new things, um, you always have to also consider, um, among the things that are possible, uh, which ones or in what situations I do not want to be. Right. So for instance, we, we are very cautious and very respectful. Uh, of the privacy of the information and, and individual privacy in general. So even beyond, um, let's say regulations like GDPR and so on. So of course, let's say in, in, in trying and testing and learning new things, we don't want to, we don't want to put information there. And that, that, that, that becomes public and, and it shouldn't become public.

Right. So there's a scenario as always, we have to be thoughtful about some scenarios, uh, where, uh, one would say, if I knew that I was going there, I, I, I, I would not go there. Right. So there, there is a sentence by Warren Buffett that says, if I knew where I was going to die, I would never go there. Right. So things that could harm us, uh, or our customers significantly. That's the place we don't want, even with new technologies and all the potential, uh, opportunities that they are. Yep. And so, um, changing, uh, gears slightly, uh, in terms of the go to market, I'm, I think that, uh, going back five years, the PLG companies would just annoy me so much. Cause I was like, you don't understand, like sales is really, really hard.

Like you've got to get in front of customers and you know what they tell you most of the time. And so you get, then got to fine tune which ones you present to, how you present to things, work out the deal structure. Uh, but, and HubSpot is the first company that I've joined that has had a very strong PLG. Uh, I don't know if it's PLG driven, but certainly PLG oriented or PLG assisted motion. Um, and I've seen the, the advantage of having a really good user experience, like a very, it's almost like the product. It's easy to use the product. Um, and I was curious from your perspective, like we see companies like Atlassian moving from PLG to more sales, like Slack, more PLG to more sales. Like how do you see, where do you see type form or where is type form today?

And where do you think you're going to be in 12 to 18 months? Yeah. So I would say type form, uh, was built on a couple of pillars. One was the respondent experience and offering, uh, the respondent the very best experience. Um, you know, that's why it's, it's beautiful. It feels conversational that you can put videos and, and so from, from a visual, but also experiential point is, is great. And, and the other pillar was the creator experience. Right. And, and that was around the idea that even though it's a, um, professional tool, uh, for work, it doesn't have to be difficult. Right. So, uh, you, you don't need to go, um, to an academy for three months to learn the broad. Right. So, and back in the day, that was also called consumerization of B2B.

So you, you take like apps for consumers that they tend to be very easy, right? Because they, they have to be usable, uh, for, for everyone. Right. So that, that was a bit of the beginning, I would say as, as two very clear pillars in how to design and how, how to go about this. And, and both David and Red are designers. So they are designers at heart, right? They, they love conquering with products and, and, and think of the experience of that person using that product, both creator and, and respondent. And then in addition to that, there is an, um, um, let's say an element of, of organic growth that is very natural in, in type form and this type of solutions. So, um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and they are responding to this and they are seeing that this is a great experience.

And some of them naturally think, oh, um, I could use this for my job or I could use this. I am a freelancer, uh, for my business. Right. Um, so it creates a little bit, that kind of, uh, look very important. Very positive, very positive, reinforcing. Um, I think this is, this is well there. We, we, we are a freemium, um, product. So people can start using it for free and then depending on their intentions and, and, and, and this is a great experience. And so on, um, they can start adopting it and, and, and, and they can start adopting it and, and pay for it as a subscription. So all of that is there. I, I believe that, um, when we think this or that, it's a bit limiting, right? And, and it happens a lot.

It's, is this product-led growth or sales-led, right? Is this marketing or sales? I think this is limiting. I think there might be different stages of evolution, uh, where you prioritize certain, certain things, certain things are easier. Uh, maybe they will bring faster and bigger impact and so on. But, but in the end, what, what I believe and what we can see is, um, companies that are very sales-led thinking, you know, how can my product, I've got more of an ambassador, how can I make it easier and companies that, uh, start at the PNG thinking, how can I boost, um, let's say growth and how can I, how can I add new levers, right? And I remember, um, when I joined Typeform, I was coming from a, uh, mobile gaming company and our, uh, marketing budgets were significantly bigger.

Uh, it was consumer business and it was a big booming business. Um, so we were investing a lot of money. And then at Typeform with PLG, uh, we, we were investing like a very small traction of, of what I was used to, to see. And so we, we started thinking, okay, how, so the product is there. And of course it has to be, uh, it's the key, right? So even when, I don't know, a hundred and something years ago, uh, uh, Ford invented, let's say, and commercialized car, the product was, was, was, was the most important, right? But then in addition to that, you add things, right? And, and so we thought, okay, the product is there, the product is great. Uh, what can we add? And, and, and we, for instance, became very good at performance marketing.

So, um, it's new levers. And I think that working in conjunction, not one against the other, not seen as a alternative or a fight for, you know, who is most important or better. Um, but working together, it's, it's how we leverage on the different efforts in the different areas. So I have another question about that, but I want to do a little parenthesis, uh, because you touched on the topic, which is, um, very near and dear to my heart. Uh, when you said that when you were working in a mobile, uh, gaming company, that you had a huge, uh, marketing budget. And I remember the, the kind of that phase pre 2018, where it was just like nonstop, uh, ads for, for, um, mobile games, but you better should not take that playbook with you to type form.

And one of the things that drives me nuts is when I see sales leaders and they just apply the previous playbook without change. Like they just take the logo off the front, put a new logo. And that is their playbook. And it drives me nuts. Cause you're like, you didn't pay any attention to what's going on here. And invariably like that they're, it sounds great. Like they are really confident about it because they have been doing it. It did work somewhere else at 12 months later, it's a disaster and like a wasteland. And so I'm curious for you, what was your mindset or like what allowed you to be able to be like, that was my playbook before, but I'm not going to come in here and be like type forms, new marketing budget just went up a hundred X.

How did you do that? I think that, um, you have to realize that, um, principles are the most important and your past past experiences can, um, let's say, give you some intuition and, but you cannot apply it directly. Right. This, this would be like that sentence also for a man with a hammer, every problem seems a nail. Right. So, um, you can try to, you know, hammer everything. And sometimes it will not work. You have to have maybe a brother toolkit or surround yourself with, um, more people that have those toolkits and, and then go back to the principles. The principle for me was, okay, this is a consumer business. It uses specific channels, the app stores. Uh, it also moved from, you know, like, uh, only Facebook ads into, you know, Facebook and ad networks, and then the influencer marketing and even PV.

And, and of course there was, uh, an evolution and different stages because when things get bigger, some, some new sources or, or channels are possible. When things are smaller or budgets are smaller, some of those, uh, options are not there or, or are not. So, but if you have a great product, are there people that don't know about it? Um, are there people that would want to, because maybe it's not only about generating demand or capturing demand. Maybe it's also speaking to your customers across the lifestyle, right? So marketing can, is, is more than just acquiring a new customer. Um, it's, it's, it's also about how you, uh, speak to your existing customers. You inform them about things, what's new.

And one of the things, for instance, that, uh, it's, it's also happening. Games and, and any software as a service is that because it is as a service, it's not only that you subscribe to it. It is that the software keeps evolving, keeps adding things, new function radius, adjacent solutions, and so on and so forth. And, and therefore, uh, you know, in games, you have the core loop, but then you have all the additional loops that make that game interesting for the customer at the different stages of that customer journey. And the same with, with Typeform, right? So you start and you, you start with creation of the first use case, but there are so many old things you can do. Maybe you have, uh, integrated only with, with HubSpot, right?

But maybe you, you could also send some applications or you can do, you could do other things with this, right? So, well, the principles were, are we already, uh, talking with every customer I would talk for? Are we talking at the different stages? And, and of course it would not be the same child, right? So we, we don't distribute through, through an app store, right? So, uh, then the, the, how is very, very specific, maybe even the targets and the volumes, right? So we, we cannot go from 0.8 or 1% of what I would think best here to 100%, but maybe we can go from 1%, maybe 5%, maybe 10%, because this is a consumer and this is B2B, but it's still a very big B2B market. Uh, our product especially is also very broad.

So, uh, it's not a niche vertical solution. It can serve to many purposes and, and therefore the addressable market in that sense is very big. And the possibilities to talk to these people via marketing is also very big, right? So, but I fully agree with you. It's, it's not like, Hey, we have to invest this amount and we have to do it through these sources and this channel. And that, because that's how it worked before. I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. And, uh, I started my career in, uh, B2B financial publishing. And so we had events, we had a website was starting to come online, but very little revenue coming from it. Uh, and we had print ads and people selling SaaS now don't fully appreciate how profitable print ads were.

It's like literally almost cost nothing. And every single print ad that you got in there was just pure profit. And I got trained by the people who were selling that before me. And it was enterprise sales before it was at called enterprise sales. And they were very smart people. They were very good at sales and they just refused. They had seen the first internet bubble and as it like crashed and then came back, they just refused to go. And they just, they wouldn't and wouldn't and wouldn't and wouldn't. And I hear what you're saying, but like, I think right now, as we come into AI, there are going to be those people who are like, I'm not doing this. And so I'm curious for you what it was that allowed you to let go of that previous motion and be like, I know that's how that was one playbook that I could run.

I'm going to let go of that. I'm going to do something different now. Yes. I think there can be a number of things, for instance, I, I, I tried to read a lot about history. And, and this is, if you know me very well, you would say Kim is always thinking about the future. Why is he so much interested about the past? And, and what happens is that I understand these different cycles, for instance, when a new technology emerges, everybody thinks that existing technology will completely disappear. And, and it mostly doesn't happen like this, right? So, for instance, in terms of ads and marketing, I've seen sometimes in some businesses like classified ads, use very well radio, right? So it's like, this is something that was done back in the day.

We, we don't do this anymore because everything is online. And then, well, eventually some years ago, I saw the radio investments being a good way of investing. So, you know, thinking about this, I'm also very much of a mindset of, um, your experience and everything, um, informs, uh, that intuition. And there are some laws, like, let's say business has some physics, right? So gravity affects us all, right? So, and, and in business, there, there are some, some laws that you have to discern from, from specific cycles and, and specific, uh, situations. But even with those laws, uh, that are acting as principles, then there's, um, you know, a number of, um, convictions that you can have, have them, but loosely have.

Right. So maybe I would go in and I would say, um, I don't think investing in the UK tube is going to make any sense. Right. But if, if you think of this world where everything changes is dynamic, consumer expectations are dynamic, uh, maybe one day you have to try. Right. And, and, and that also is linked with, um, having, let's say no ego. Right. So not measuring oneself for how many things I said that were right. Right. I mean, I know I will get wrong many, many times. Right. But then that's why I, I want to team, uh, because that everybody's contributing something. Right. And maybe somebody would say, I think I should try that and then say, well, it doesn't feel, but try. Right. Because, and, and, and of course you have to prioritize and if you have time and budget and so on and so forth.

But in any case, there's this kind of mindset and this kind of, um, let's say when you go back to what you know, and you have a direct experience or you have read that is okay. Right. Right. Right. And, and this informs me, but then things change continuously. Be open to learn, be open to try. I think if that wasn't like this, and of course it will always be like this, you could basically put it in, um, autopilot and companies cannot go on autopilot. You have to continuously manage and be on top of it and, and make continuous decisions. Yeah, really, really appreciate that. It's, it's a tough topic because I've seen very, very smart people just completely go off the rails, uh, trying to execute on it.

So I appreciate that, that insight. Um, so I think that kind of brings us nicely back to the, um, what, how we're talking about PLG and what, um, Alina, uh, Vandenberg from Chili Piper described as product assisted growth. And she's ex product, uh, had a product and then she moved it to be CMO. So in a way it seems like that's, would you say that product assisted growth is a good description for type form? As product as, I would say as an ambassador, I think she's completely right. Um, and, and I would say that in a way the product is an ambassador in our case, because as, as I said, like more than 500 million completed interactions, let's say responses, right? Surveys forms, that, that, that is, you know, hundreds of millions of people, 200, whatever million people, uh, experiencing that.

And, and, and if the experience is great, then, then they think, maybe I should try this, right? So that, that's one, one thing of our product led growth. Uh, another thing is the idea that you have teams that are, uh, working on the core of a product, let's say the functionalities, but you also have teams that work on the area of product growth. So, uh, um, and, and then on top of that, and, and this is where product meets marketing a lot of times, right? So these, these teams that were, because for instance, in, in customer, um, life cycle management, right? Um, you can create an in-app notification that you can also send an email. Um, you can do it before sign up, after sign up, or before certain moments in the journey.

So then all of that is, is, is, is growth in a way, right? If you want to, uh, keep growing, meaning new customers or the same customer doing more things for more time, right? So in that sense, uh, that's also a place where product leads a lot and really needs at some point marketing, because, you know, you can set the, um, the point of connection or the boundary, uh, whatever you want in your org design, right? So, um, yeah, well, I would say our product is the ambassador and, and then we, we equip it and we equip ourselves with as many levers as, as we can. And so, uh, one of the dynamics that I see, um, with very, very strong product teams is that historically they have operated, I wouldn't say in a bubble, but very focused on their own product.

And it's very well instrumented. It's very well measured. It's very well measured. The tests are very well controlled. But from my seat coming in as a HubSpot, somebody talking about HubSpot integrations, I can talk to the team who have no idea about HubSpot. I'm like, you have over a thousand customers using this and there's not like somebody who's the dedicated expert of this. And if the company is not using HubSpot, oftentimes that, that in-house expertise doesn't exist. And HubSpot is an important integration. It's not the only integration. And so, um, as you see the product team evolving, do you see like building out expertise around specific integrations? Like how can you ensure for Typeform that those integrations are really robust across the key integrations for, for your customers?

That's a great point. And I would say that the main responsibility of, of the different product managers or, or leaders, let's say in the different teams is decide what's going to be built, right? So they work with designers, with, with, uh, with engineers in this triads, right? Sometimes we, let's say in some companies, we do extend that triad to involve also people that are around data and research and, and strategy, right? So the idea of competitive intelligence and so on. But, but again, that person is, is central in this and has a role, which is decide what's going to be built, right? If that person loves the product, it's great. But what is most important is that that person loves stochastic, right?

Understands, empathizes with stochastic. That's where, um, I've seen some gaps, right? Where, where I can see even, let's say some, some phone box, right? So they build the product big one or them shell. But that's, that's not, you know, and maybe sometimes if it's really, really sales led, you build the product that the customer, that this customer or that customer, right? Then, and then you can maybe go into the direction of becoming more of a kind of service provider with these very big customers with very big budgets and very big annual contract balance, right? So in our case, the, the product manager and general, the product organization has to truly understand, um, those elements of our target customers that are common, right?

So a lot of times, for instances, you want to build this functionality. How many people in our target customer group will benefit throwing, right? Because if it's only one in 150,000, uh, I don't know if we should build that, right? So probably not, right? But if it's, uh, 15, 20%, or, or, or, or maybe a smaller group, but of the highest value customers, um, that then, then maybe it makes sense. But you really need to understand the customer. So, uh, what I would say is, um, love the customer, really like your product, because otherwise, and a lot of people join platform because they really like the product, right? But love the customer. And then also take other information into consideration, like, and simply competitors and so on.

Well, when I, I think that's the key thing. And, and that's also where a lot of communication and common ground can be found between sales, marketing, and product. Because in the end, it's, we are building for them. We are marketing to them. We are assisting in the sales or decision process, uh, before the sales and maybe even after, right? So, uh, in, in, in ensuring their success. Um, so if we have the customer as the priority, we are all aligned and we have a common ground talk about what's, what are we going to do together? Great. Well, I really appreciate that. And for, for our audience who is primarily sales focus, I apologize. I'm very interested in, in product. And so I'm, I'm steering Kim onto the product topic because Typeform is expert on it, but, but also because I think that sales as salespeople, we need to be in a position to succeed.

And the key way that we can see this by, uh, caring about and investing in our own product. And if we are selling the same product in 12 months from, as we are today, we as salespeople have failed the organization. That is our job to challenge the organization to continue to get better and improve it. The only way we can do that is by understanding how it's, how it's operating today. And, and look, you are, salespeople are talking with customers, convincing, right? So, and, and, and the topics of conversation can, can be also decided. No, I want to ask about these things and I will probably be responding to these questions. So that information is goal, right? It's, it's almost like, let's say customer care information where the problem, where the customer is having problems, maybe hasn't seen something, something is difficult, something is possible.

And they are asking about this, that's goal, right? And, and then that's where, um, let's say product has its own motions and has to include and put in all of this information as well. Um, because there might be this idea that if you ask the customer what they want is a faster force and maybe what they want and what I provide as a solution is not exactly the same thing in its form, but it's in its objectives, right? So I want to go places faster. I cannot imagine a faster force because I'm not used to anything else. Maybe the broad person with its own creativity can, can create something they should, right? But in any case, that information is absolutely golden as well as competitive intelligence information.

You, you know, when you lose a project, why you lose, right? At, at least after a number of calls, 10, 15 of a similar pattern, you can recognize patterns. And, and if we want to win together as a company, these information is, and this team collaboration is absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so on the, on the sales team, um, I'm curious, uh, can you talk a little bit about how, how you do sales now and, and, uh, what it's going to look like your vision for it in, in, uh, the next year, year and a half? Yes. So, yeah, absolutely. We, we, we started as PLD and back in the early days, uh, uh, uh, of my tenure at that form. I, I suggested that, um, being such a broad, uh, application, such a versatile application, um, we, we should do marketing.

Right. Right. And, and, and we started doing marketing. We became very good at doing performance marketing. And we added that, um, and let's say critical level of, of growth. Right. It's almost like a plane. Well, you fly with engines and then you add the other two engines and eventually it's, it's safer. It's faster. And, and that's the one. So now, um, you are adding a third Allen, right. Which is going up market. Well, we, we have been for, uh, about a year or a year plus seeing signal coming from, um, slightly larger companies. Right. And these larger companies are not very large, uh, but they are in the few hundreds and maybe small thousands of employees. And there's a big market there.

Right. So, uh, if, if you look at the pyramid of companies in the world, viable businesses, there's statistics saying there's 67 million of which, you know, like more than 40 million are less than 10. And we single business owners and freelancers and, and, and all of that. And there's only 320,000 that are, um, bigger than 500 employees. So there's a, in that, let's say 50 plus to 500 or even 500 to maybe a thousand or there's, there's all of them. And, and, and I think, uh, let's say, I think it, because we've seen data that says, um, they, they use us more at a bigger scale. Uh, and, and so we, we want to help them, right. It, it helps us grow and, and we can help them. And it, it, it creates that kind of positive thing.

So now we are thinking, okay, we want to, um, at a sales assistant motion, right? And that sales assistant motion is end to end. So it starts before the sales is done. So we are assisting the customer there and it continues when the customer has signed a contract. Then it can also continue, uh, during the whole, uh, lifetime of, of this customer, right? Um, because they will use it in a bigger scale. Uh, they will, uh, they are paying us, uh, more money. And so we can dedicate, let's say, human time. Um, the key thing here and, and our philosophy is working with one funnel and different germs, segmented germs. So everybody, our marketing, right? Uh, is going after, let's say, target groups in different ways, but it's going after everybody.

And everybody comes at the top of this one. And then depending on who you are and where you are in this, uh, funnel, we will segment you out. Right. So you can ask for it. Obviously you can be proactive in that sense. And, and that's where people say, I want a contact sale. And we want to make that very easy for them. But also we can also decide, hey, you are a customer of this company. Um, and, and we would like to talk. Thanks. That's where we are using. Also. We already had some projects around, uh, lead flow management and qualification of these leads, but we are adding new technologies, AI based technologies as well. And additional data sources continue that even, even better. So one funnel, multiple journeys.

And one of these journeys, um, we, we'll take companies and people working in those companies to talk to our, um, humans, employees, type formers, and, and have a, let's say a white glove or more VID type of service. Yeah. And, um, in terms of the sales enablement, like how, how do you provide your sales team? Like what assets you provide your sales team to, to be successful or, uh, and onboarding them as part of this. Very, like very strong product organization so that they can hold their weight. That, I wouldn't say that is different, or at least we have not found a, a better or different way to other companies. So it's, it's a lot about battle cards and, um, very good throwback, uh, information.

So timely, but also detailed enough so that they know, um, obviously what they are selling and with different functionalities. Um, it's use case information because we are very broad that news. So, uh, there can be, typically we work very well with customers that are, um, customer facing. Right. So marketers and salespeople, because they do not have, um, it is not guaranteed that their audience, uh, will be responding to them. So that's why type form with say beautiful forms and different experiences with video ask, the videos, uh, and so on. And, and the big real estate around, you know, the question, but also everything around that question creates attention. And, and that's why they, they, they law us, right?

There's, uh, HR people that do that also for hiring. Because it's not obvious that a good candidate that you want to draw into your pipeline will actually respond to you. So that kind of maximizes that, that, uh, that, uh, welcome outcome, right? So people, um, actually giving their dating. So, um, well, what, what we are doing is, is, uh, we are enabling them by, by providing all of this information. So how to respond things, uh, our product, the different use cases, uh, competitive analysis. And this, we, we see it also as an iterative process, right? So as, as I was saying, um, well, there's a lot of costs, right? So we, we don't have a, a big team right now. It's, it's four AEs and one HDR.

So, but, but they generate a lot of calls and, and then we can also bring that content and, and summarize it, digest it through AI. And, and we also learn, and that feeds back into, okay, so this is a new question or, okay, this is a new feature and you didn't know. So I have to know about it. That's that extremely different. What, where I think it's, um, different to what I've heard usually is, um, in our org design, uh, once a row that takes care of everything. So there is no separation of marketing and sales. And, and that creates that one fun, right? And the contact and the interaction between product marketing, the different marketing people. And, and sales, uh, and success and care, which success and care is also in the same organization.

Then creates that kind of, uh, virtual circle of learning that will walk. Yeah. I, it's a really interesting to hear about. And, and, um, I, I, I, I think that that's, it seems like it's, it's a very interesting team that, that will have a lot of value to add. Uh, and so I hope the other teams are open to, to listening to the feedback that they have from customers directly. And, and hopefully, I assume you're also using AI on the call. So you can just bring that data back in directly as product feature requests. Um. Yeah. Yes. Uh, final question. Um, you've had, uh, a very successful career. Um, I, I think one of the things that's challenging as people are coming out of the COVID phase, like a lot of people are still working remote in software companies.

Um, if you were early in your career, I, I, I wondering what advice you would give, what, what advice would you give to people early in their career? So it's, it's, it's really good. An excellent question. And I would say that first of all, career, career management is more about the future than the past. So I would try to understand and, and always be looking at how these, I mean, if I am in sales, for instance, um, it's not so important how sales have been done in the last 20 years, right? Um, it's more important how sales will be in the next step or the next 20, but visibility around the future is, uh, let's say somewhat. So I would say think about, and, and be ready to learn, um, what's, what's this function gonna be in the next 10 years, right?

Um, um, implies that, that, um, let's say. Um, let's say person will not only be looking at the, uh, uh, necessary immediate, uh, crafts and skills and needs of the job, but also around the job. Right. If I think of sales, for instance, and that's just an example, but I would say you want to understand what happens after sales. Right. So if you are at the early stages of your career, you have spent a couple of years in sales. Maybe you should expand as 10 invest, right? Right. One year in, in care or success. Right. Because then you, you know what is happening, right? If, if you are in a company that does not address fortune 500, but addresses a much wider type of, um, customers out there, everything around rev ops is very important.

Right. So, um, and how decisions are made based on data and statistical data is also very important because in the end, um, the most important element of sales is, is not to always have human, right? Humans will be, will continue being more and more so empowered by technologies so that they can apply themselves when that human creativity, that human communication, that is truly empathetic, that is truly, um, you know, um, customer driven. Right. Uh, and, and, and in the end also that final decision making, making is, is necessary. Right. So, so I, I would say, think about that and, and equip yourself with what's next, what's before. Um, because also eventually you will be growing in that direction and then they just have to know about it.

Right. And. It's open to learn. Uh, I would say, um, I'm a big believer in, in, in learning on things. Um, Kim, thank you very much. Uh, it was great to have you on the make it happen podcast. Um, sorry, John Barrows couldn't be here. I I'm sure that he would have enjoyed the discussion. Um, but really appreciate, uh, tight form everything you're doing in the HubSpot ecosystem. And, uh, look forward to hopefully getting the chance to, to meet you. Uh, to meet you at some point soon. Thank you, Russell. I mean, amazing questions that made the whole interview, uh, very, very exciting and, and engaging for me. So it's, I hope, uh, yeah, we will meet soon. Uh, are you, are you going to Sastak this year, by the way?

Sastak. Sastak. Yes. Okay. Well, maybe we can catch up in Dublin then. Yeah, absolutely. I'll, I'll be there. So let's make sure I'm going to inbound first. And then in October, I'll, I'll go to Sastak as well. Even better. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough. Now to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also check out my new website at www.johnm.barrows.com where you'll find even more ways to engage.

There's a ton of free content and you can also get trained from me directly as an individual or for your team. Look, I'm out there selling every day, just like you are. And I'm doing my best to stay on top of all the latest trends and technology. So if you're looking to level up and you give a shit about this profession of sales, let's connect and let's make this happen together.