Thomas Curran: Unpacking the Rise of Perfectionism in Modern Society

Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And today's guest is Thomas Curran. Now, Thomas is the world's foremost expert on perfectionism, and he's a professor of psychology at the esteemed London School of Economics and the author of The Perfection Trap, Embracing the Power of Good Enough. And this was a super interesting conversation because perfectionism, I've never really thought of myself as a perfectionist. Actually, I think I'm an anti-perfectionist, but I have perfectionism traits, and we dove into that.

But we started with his background. Since this was a psychology professor, I figured we'd go way back and figure out where he actually came from, from his parents. And he talks about how his perfectionism has really led to a lot of panic attacks and some mental health issues, and he broke through them. And so I was curious where it came from. So we started there and dove into the types of perfectionism, what it actually means, and what the scale of perfectionism looks like, and then how to address it. And there was all sorts of interesting nuances when this conversation about where it comes from, from a nature and nurture standpoint, how it compares to narcissism, and also the impact that social media has had.

And I use this as an opportunity to get a little bit of coaching myself on how to even address my daughter growing up so that she did not have that mindset that leads to so many mental health issues that we all have these days. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Thomas Curran, welcome to the podcast, my friend. Thanks for joining us here today. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, thanks for having me, John. I'm looking forward to it too. Yeah, this is the, look, you know, the audience knows I try to kind of go all over the place when it comes to sales and business and entrepreneurship and everything else, but I've been diving more and more into the psychology because I just find psychology fascinating.

Sales, that's why you don't hear me say, like, I don't read a lot of sales books or tips or anything like that because techniques come and go, but psychology, that doesn't change much. But I'm really interested in diving into perfectionism here with you today because there are some things that I read about what you're working on here that it tells us it is changing a little bit as far as our society is concerned. But Thomas, why don't we give, before we dive into the topic of perfectionism, back up a little bit here. And I would love to have you talk about obviously what you're doing today, but if you mind going back and just way back as far as you growing up, because especially since this is psychology, I love to kind of dive into where you come from, from like your background, your parents, those type of things so that we can lead into kind of some of the issues that you've actually talked about yourself as it relates to perfectionism.

And kind of how it brought you to where you are today. So you mind backing us all the way up? Thank you, John, for that opportunity. Social psychologists, people in the social sciences don't often get an opportunity to talk about their background and upbringing a great deal. But I think it's so, so important because this is a social science. And yeah, we collect data, but we interpret it through our own lenses, right? And I guess life experiences will taint the way we interpret data in whichever way those experiences take us. So it's really, it is important you know about people who write these big books because you can then interpret what they're saying from a more informed place. So yeah, I grew up in a small town in the United Kingdom and a small town vibe in the UK is actually not too dissimilar to the small town vibe in the US minus maybe the religion and guns perhaps, but I'm pretty much the same experience.

You know, these are towns that have been left to deteriorate and have had a lot of experience, a lot of economic stagnation, shrinkage, I would say. And that was very much my experience growing up young and poor. But one of the things that that did teach me is that life is going to happen to you and there are things that you cannot control and you have to let things, you at some level have to let things go. And so really that told me that you just got to say yes to everything. Like you can't be picky when you come from that position. You have to just take every opportunity that comes. You have to make sure that you position yourself to jump when you need to jump. And that's basically what I did.

I got a grant to go to university, so I took it. And then I got an opportunity to do a master's, so I took it. And then I got an opportunity to do a PhD. So I took it. All these things, by the way, taking me to very different places, moving me all around. But that's what you got to do to elevate yourself in this world from where I started. And then that was really where it took off. I worked really, really hard to get a poster, which is a postgraduate degree in Australia. So I moved out there. And then I started to really think deeply about perfectionism because one of the things I was really struggling with is this constant pressure to excel and achieve and lift myself above other people who I perceived as more talented, more privileged, just feeling like I'm always starting from behind them, which was objectively true.

But also it's a psychological mindset, right? And that put an incredible amount of pressure on myself, stress, mental health difficulties, which culminated in what I would call a breakdown, probably. I mean, I'm sure people would have experienced worse, but it was certainly difficult, panic attacks and all the rest of it. And that's when I started to think, okay, this pressure, this expectation is having such a tremendous impact on my life in a negative way. And perfectionism is certainly at the root of these issues, driving myself crazy. So I decided I'd do a bit of research in this area, try and find out more. And it wasn't just me. It was everyone and all around me that was experiencing it.

So I looked at it more at a societal level. I was the first researcher to find that perfectionism is rising over time and it's on an exponential curve. So we're seeing a lot of it now and we're going to see more of it into the future. And that's where the TED talk came from. That's where the book came from. And here I am. So that's the Whistlestop store with Tom's Curran. Love it. The one thing I want to get a little bit more clarity to, because I'm fascinated on the nature nurture component of this, um, for you, what, what, what were your parents, uh, what were their careers like, like what positions did they have and, and how, and if you could reflect a little bit on maybe, cause I do want to dive into, you have some percentages and where it comes from, but curious if you can glean anything from your childhood based on their upbringing and what they did that kind of put you on that path.

Yeah. So my dad is a construction worker and a typical, you know, working class guy, um, he, you know, uh, the, the, the way that he, he showed that he loved you is by praising your work ethic. Yeah. Right. You know, like you, you worked really hard and that was, that was how you, you knew that you'd done well and he was proud of you. So there was very much instilled a very strong work ethic giving me from a child from my dad's work class upbringing. And his dad was actually a master carpenter in the local area and, uh, um, quite well regarded. Actually, some of his wares are still in the pubs of Northamptonshire where I grew up today, which is a beautiful thing cause he's no longer with us, but you feel like he's there.

You know, when you're walking up the stairs and the banisters that he made is incredible. Um, my mother was a receptionist at the local hotel, uh, very diligent, uh, extremely conscientious, very meticulous, and certainly a perfectionist, which, uh, is perhaps where the genetic component of my perfectionism probably comes from. Uh, she, she certainly has, um, tendencies that I, uh, I share. Um, and there's certainly, uh, I would, I would think, uh, quite a bit of my perfectionism. Um, and yeah, they met, uh, uh, uh, in the, uh, early eighties and, uh, and they've been together ever since. So it's very happy, uh, very happy, uh, situation for us. And that's what they have. So, so let's dive into that, right?

There's, I mean, I think of one of the things I was doing prepping this, I think I heard you say that nature, you kind of attribute about 30 to 40% of perfectionism. Well, actually just for the audience, could you define perfectionism? I think everybody understands what we're talking about here, but I just want to define perfectionism and, and compare it to other things like narcissism and, and those types of things. Cause I think a lot of the characteristics are similar, but I want to make sure that the audience knows the definition and how you look at perfectionism. Um, because I think it's a really interesting take on it of where it comes from too. Yeah. So perfectionism is a, I guess at root perfectionism is a deficit mindset.

So this idea that we're not good enough, we're not perfect enough. And that in order to feel like we matter, in order to feel like we're worth something in the world, we have to be perfect and nothing but perfect. Um, and what we're really trying to do is repair or conceal that imperfect self in the world. So we need other people's approval and validation is a very big part of our, um, emotional wellbeing. Uh, they tell us that we're okay, that we're good enough. They give us the reinforcement that we need to feel like we're not deficient. But of course, when those things are forthcoming or rejected or worse, people just show us indifferent. Uh, of course, everything comes crashing down because that, that says something about that imperfect self that we're trying to hide.

Now that's really important as a starting point for perfectionism, because it's often confused with things like conscientiousness and narcissism, as you mentioned, conscientiousness being very different, coming from a very active, optimistic place of needing to approve, wanting to do better, wanting to grow and all of these great things. Narcissism on the other hand, coming from a slightly different place of grandiosity and entitlement sense that, you know, this bulletproof narrative that we're trying to write for ourselves. Well, narcissists actually believe it, the perfectionist does not. Yeah. So that's the core difference between those two individuals. So perfectionism, if you start at the root point, our starting point of deficit, then you can begin to unpack why it's so problematic.

Can I, this, I wasn't going to ask this question, I was curious on this narcissist, they, they believe that they are better, but is that a, almost a defense, is that ultimately from a psychology standpoint, is that ultimately a defense mechanism because they really don't believe it way, way deep down or is a narcissist truly, I, I see the lens through my lens and I genuinely think that I am better than or whatever it might be. And there is no deep seated. I mean, I'm sure there's deep seated issues in general. Right. But I just always fascinated, like, it feels like narcissists, they put themselves out there like they believe it. But my question is, is do they really deep down or is this just a defense mechanism?

Interesting. You bring that up. And actually not many people ask this question, but it's such an important one. So, there is something called narcissistic perfectionism, where the projection of perfectionistic standards onto other people and ourselves would be what Freud called projection. So, we're essentially projecting those inner deficiencies into the world. But narcissism standalone, it really, you know, people, people really do believe that they are the measure of all things. This kind of idea of messiah complex. And you can, you can point to very, all sorts of different individuals, very high, high profile individuals. Well, I think there's one rather obvious one here. There's one, I'm sure, that comes to mind.

But mostly where, you know, these individuals do exist, but actually much more of what we see on the surface of narcissism actually comes from a place, as you mentioned, of feeling like we, we don't matter, we don't belong, we're not good enough. And that, and then, and it looks like narcissism on the surface, but actually, that'd be fair. So, where would you put yourself on the scale? Like, if you were to go from, you know, perfect, let's, let's hone in on perfectionism, right? Because I think you, you've said you consider yourself a perfectionist. Um, and, and I think you said you're getting better, um, at, at it and dealing with focusing on what you can control and other things. But say, say, you know, five years ago, where were you?

Like, when you, when you had those panic attacks, right, and you kind of said, okay, this is, this is the breaking point for me, where were you on the scale of perfectionism and where are you now? Uh, well, that's, it's really, it's, so it's a, one of the great point about perfection being in the spectrum, and that's really important for your listeners to realize that this isn't a fixed entity, right? So, you're not a perfectionist or a non-perfectionist. We don't like to think about perfectionism in these terms, because that means it's very hard and fast, that means we can't do much to turn the corner on it. And, and as we've talked about, about 30 to 40% is genetic, which, you know, is, is, is, is fixed, but nevertheless, that leaves a lot for the environment to explain.

And that leaves a lot for the environment to either turn down or turn up, depending on which way the door goes and depending on which way we interpret and move around that environment. So we do have agency. And I think it's really important to, to recognize that perfectionism is a spectrum. Now, for me, uh, I would say I was a mega, mega perfectionistic person, uh, and now I'm only just maybe trending a little bit high on the spectrum. You will always have these tendencies. I'm sure for people listening, recognize that it's really difficult thing to let go of, particularly in this world. Um, but at the same time, you can reflect, you can have a more philosophical outlook on life, which basically says, okay, things are going to happen to me that I can't control.

And that's okay. I can't perfect everything. And that's okay. I can have goals. I can have aspirations. I can want to do well, but at the same time, I can know that that path is going to be long. It's going to be jagged. It might, I might not get there as quickly as I wanted to get there. Uh, I might hit setbacks, um, things coming out of the blue that didn't expect all of these things I'm prepared for mentally. And I can, um, weather way better now than I, than it could have done in the past. And, and so I would say I'm, I'm getting there. I'm on the journey, certainly not fully recovered, but, um, but on the way. That's good to know. Um, one of the things I'm struggling, you know, I, I, a lot of times I use my podcast here as open therapy session.

So I'm going to, I'm going to use that. I need to take advantage of it here for whether you, cause I got some questions as it relates to perfectionism, expectations of others and work ethic, three things that have come up here. I do not consider myself a perfectionist, right? I, I think that I've, I've always said that one of my skills that I've, uh, I think been born with is I have a rather opportunistic lens where I can kind of look at two or three data points of any scenario and usually make a pretty educated decision. And I don't have to think too hard about it. I just, I just go ahead and do it. Right. I don't like the details. I do not like reading into the details. I don't overanalyze things and I just go that said, let's go back to work ethic.

Your dad, you said would encourage and praise you based on work ethic. Same with mine. My problem and a lot of other entrepreneurs that I've been talking to specifically very recently have a very big issue with work ethic as it relates to figuring things out. So I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, I guess, in the sense that I, I, I push hard. I work my ass off. I probably, you had mentioned something about how perfectionists actually aren't very productive because they get too stuck in the details and, and they never really get out of their own way. And I, I'm definitely there when it comes to the, I work way harder than I work smarter. Okay. But my expectations of other people, isn't that their work is perfect.

I could care less if they're, I know their work is never going to be perfect, but I care that they put in the effort to try to make it better. And one of the things I've come across with myself just happened to me, like was, you know, I had a big, you know, not a big company, but a bunch of people that, that, that worked with me and, and for me and Q1, the bottom dropped out. And it just, it felt like I was more concerned with their wellbeing than they were based on how hard I was working versus theirs, trying to save them versus me and all this other stuff. And I've talked to at least 15 other entrepreneurs right now who are just incessantly frustrated with the fact that their employees don't seem to care, don't seem to have the same drive and work ethic that they do.

And, and is that a form of perfectionism? Well, it's a really good, um, question. I'm not on the front line of these, uh, particular ventures. So it's difficult for me to have an informed position based on what I see in the workplace. What I can tell you in the academic setting is that young people are extremely failure averse. And, uh, that is maybe a little bit of what you're seeing there. So what's interesting is we've, you're in sales and, uh, you will know that you're going to fail a hundred times, right? And for the, for one time that it might like, you might get it over the line, right? This is just, failure is just part and parcel of the process. In fact, it's expected, it's regression to the mean, it's going to happen way more than it, that it doesn't, and you have to really, you have to be prepared for that and you have to be able to weather that, um, healthily, right?

Like be able to take it on like the tune. Okay. Nevermind. We'll try next time. We'll go next time. You, you've just got to keep going back. You got to keep going back. I guess this is resilience. What we call resilient. Uh, I'm not sure I'm overly keen on the phrase resilient, but nevertheless, we call it resilient. And this is something I think young people right now have a difficulty with, um, because they've come out for a very brutal sorting process through school and, and perhaps parenting where expectations are really high and, and parents are very keen to instill in young people. It's really, you know, it's a problem to fail, right? If you fail your tests, then you're not going to get into the right classes, which means you're not going to get into the best universities, which means you're not going to make it into these elite professions.

So it's a real problem. Failure is a real problem, right? You got to make sure you're nailing every single time. Keep getting exceptional, exceptional, exceptional, so young people take this, uh, again, deficit thinking, deficit mindset, worrying about the consequences of screwing up at the expense of success. Right. And this is what perfectionists will do all the time. They will sell, they will avoid failure, right? So intently that they self-sabotage a chance of success because avoiding failure is way more important than making the successful, um, act. And you see this in all sorts of lab experiments, by the way, like if you put a perfectionist in the lab and you expose them to some kind of failure or perfectionist in people, um, we do this with sports, sports are really useful example.

So we say, okay, here's an, here's a task, but cycle task. You got to cover a certain distance, a certain amount of time. Go, you should do it based on your fitness. You should do it comfortably for you. And you get to be able to do it and it's really, really hard the first attempt. And then you say, okay, no matter how well you did, you failed, right? You didn't, you didn't make it. Sorry, guys. But, but have another go, you know, don't worry. You can try next time. And those people are not very perfectionistic, perhaps like yourself, Jim, uh, would put in more effort the next time. Okay, no worries. I'll just try again. Right. And if anything, their effort goes up a little bit on the second attempt, but the perfectionist people do the opposite.

And this might be what you're seeing here in some of your observation. Uh, they completely withhold effort, right? They, they have a drop sort of a cliff because, uh, you can't fail at some, you didn't try it. So you're kind of withholding yourself. You're preserving yourself that, and that guilt, that shame, embarrassment. You felt the first failure. So intense, you don't want to feel that again. So you withhold. And that's not just avoidance behaviors. It's also procrastination. Uh, you know, you, you avoid doing very challenging tasks in the moment because it's so difficult psychologically. So you do something else, anything else to avoid those feelings. And that's what perfectionistic people do a lot.

And perhaps that's what you might be seeing in those observations. That's, and I think it's such a bad societal thing here because I do agree. Like we have gotten into, I mean, I don't know how bad it is in the UK or London, but here in the States, it's, you know, it's taught to the test. It's, you got to get an ABC, you know, A or B or else it's even a B is bad. And because if you don't get perfect scores and you're not going to get into that school and, and whatever. And I just feel like that is such an old antiquated way because that system has been manufactured to basically produce robots. And the scary thing is, is now they're getting replaced by robots, right? With the AI stuff that's happening right now.

And so I, and I see this as, as a parent, you know, my daughter's 12 years old and she had a big problem early and she's gotten a little bit better at it, but she will, I watch her. She will not try something if she doesn't think she's going to be good at it. And, and even if she thinks she's not going to be good at it, or she's not going to master it immediately, she'll avoid it. And I'm trying to figure out like, how do we deprogram our children? I mean, cause I talk to her about failure all the time. I mean, I mean, to your point of sales, I'm like, sweetheart, like I've failed a thousand times before I succeed. I'm like, I, and I celebrate the failure with her. I'm like, no, we've, that's a learning lesson.

Right. But yet still she has that perception, you know, I can tell it's a deep seated thing and I don't know, she, you know, she's, she is on social media, right? She has Snapchat, but she's, I don't let her have like Instagram or all these other ones, right? Which I think just perpetuates. And we'll talk about that as far as social and the impact that that has had, which is why I think that exponential curve is happening here. But what can you do as a parent outside of telling your kid that failure is okay and, and kind of limiting their social exposure and it doesn't matter how many likes, is there anything from a psychology standpoint that you can approach a child with to try to address this before it becomes and manifests itself into panic attacks and, and procrastination and all those things.

Yeah. It's so true. And it is an issue because if you look out into the, so go back, go back to what, when our parents were coming, right? Right. You, I, it was the affluent society, the burgeoning middle class, uh, the average Joe was celebrated, you know, look at the Flintstones, the Jetsons. The Jetsons, this was the average family, right? That was the celebrated, uh, figure for American culture today. It's the Kardashians. It's the 1%. It's the unicorn achievers and that's all young people see on social media, televisions, on the television screens, billboards, um, documentaries, movie theaters. Look around. That's all you see, the incredible achievements of 0.001%. Now that's just creating a warped sense of, uh, uh, what it, what's normal, uh, and it's creating a warped sense of, uh, sorry, not a warped sense, but a, a reticence among young people to, to put themselves out there, to fail, to show that they're vulnerable and just human beings.

And that's why I think we're seeing this incredible worry about, well, I'm not going to try something if I, if I'm screw it, uh, if I'm not very good at it, because all I see on Instagram are people who are like incredible at these things, like guitarists, right? You ain't going to pick up a guitar and play Hotel California on your first strum ain't going to happen. But if all you see on Instagram is people like noodling along, like it's, it's, it's going to give you a sense that, well, there's no way. So why bother? There's no way I, I can never be that good as, and when I try, I just can't, I can't pull out a tune. My fingers are high and it's not, I'm just going to get lit. And I think, I think that's, so you asked about parents, but I want to provide some, um, reassurance to parents that are listening that this isn't the, you know, this is not your fault.

Like this is, this is a problem of society of broader culture of the things that we lionize. And it's really tough in that context. However, there are things we can do. Obviously we can teach young people that these things are unrealistic, that these things are not reflective of everyday life, that actually everybody sucks at everything they do for the first time. And some people suck at things they do for the hundredth times, but if it brings you joy and it makes you happy. I mean, I'm a, I'm a, I suck at singing, but I still do it because you know what? It brings me joy. It brings me happiness. And if it does, if that's what it does, and that's, that's the most important thing. Uh, secondly, I think we can lead by example, just as you said, John, you know, like we show our children for our own failures, that failures are humanizing and not humiliating.

They, they are really part and parcel of being a fallible, exhaustible human being. And, and, um, we should be celebrating them, embracing them, uh, learning from them, most important, but thirdly, and this is so important, consistency, consistency, consistency, make sure no matter how well your children do, uh, in school or college or sports, whatever it might be that you give them a consistent dream. And so for instance, if they succeed, they get an A plus grade, hug them, praise them, tell them how amazing that achievement is. But if they get a C on occasion and they're not, they're devastated because naturally they, they may be the same treatment, hug them, praise them, tell them it's not the end of the world, tell them that actually this is just one grade of many hundreds of grades that you're going to get, uh, across your school, uh, life that isn't in diamond on you.

Doesn't say about anything about how much you matter, how much you value, how much you love. Doesn't say anything about how much the teacher likes you. Will your parents approve of you? Just one grade of many, many other grades. And that's all you can do, John. You know, that's all you can do. Just try and be as consistent as you can with your love and approval. Um, and, uh, and, and, you know, just raise, uh, kids is in, in as a loving and, uh, caring way as possible. That's all you can. I think that's the, you know, that's the trick. It's like the consistency I think is the hard part for parents, right? Because it ebbs and flows and you get caught up in the societal component of it as well.

Right. You compare your child to everybody else. I mean, that's just the weight. That's just human nature. Right. I mean, I think that was one of the challenges I had when my daughter was growing up. It was like she was evolving faster just from a, from a, um, I don't know. Just she, she's a single child. Right. So we, we've always treated her like an adult. We never had baby talk with her. We've always had very thoughtful conversations with her. And so there was absolutely a point where she was far more mature than the majority of other people. And that, you know, that made me feel good to a certain degree, but then we compare, you know, then I compared other kids who were playing sports and I'm like, oh, she's not as good as that.

So, you know, you, you inherently get stuck in this comparison world. And I think that's, that that's a big part of this is that you're constantly comparing yourself to somebody else. How do we break that cycle without breaking the aspiration? Because I want, I, I look at other people and that helps me aspire to be, because that's one approach to it, right? Some people are like, you know what, that drives me to be that good because I want to be like better than that person. But other people are destroyed by it because they're constantly comparing themselves about how many clicks and how many likes and how many shares got happened here. So what's the dynamic between aspirational comparison and, and negative comparison, if you will?

Yeah, it's a really good question. So going back to the point I was making about how in this society we idolize the unicorn achiever, Nassim Taleb did a very, very interesting calculation. So Nassim Taleb is a quite famous mathematician and he found that in order to get to the top of any, any discipline, he's the example of the sport. You have to be a six sigma individual. So that's six and deviations away from the means about one point, one in 1.4 million people, right? So it's a completely improbable aspiration. Now that's to say we shouldn't hold them. Just want to park that for a moment, but nevertheless, improbable. Now, fully 70% of us will fall somewhere around the mean, around the average, 70% of us.

Now, there really shouldn't be any shame in being average. And if we make it to the top through our talents and efforts, and that's amazing. That, enjoy it, crave, sorry, drink it in because it's an achievement. But if you don't quite make it, knowing that most of us are very probably average, I think takes a lot of pressure off comparison and puts the focus more on our meaning, purpose, and flourishing. And to flourish, by the way, means to flower and flowers don't compete each other. They just grow in their own intricate way, not needing to size themselves up or compare themselves to all the other flowers in the garden. My mum's a gardener, so this is where I started to think about these kind of metaphors.

But I think that's important. We are our own person ultimately. And it's really important that we focus on our own passions and get a sense of purpose of the things that we are interested in. And that intrinsic motivation can carry us a long way, I think. And as I said, it doesn't matter if we don't quite make it. Because all that does matter is that we're finding purpose and meaning from what we do. So I think it's difficult because we're always pushed to compare. We're always pushed to look at the highest achiever and think that's the benchmark. But actually most of us are average and that's okay. And the most important thing is we find meaning and purpose. And if we're right for the talents, we can even get one standard deviation, maybe even two.

Amazing. That's awesome. But we should see success in a new framework that's within a realistic bound of what's possible and focus on meaning and purpose. Those are things that most to me. Yeah, I think I always tell my daughter, when the question of what do you want to be when you grow up, there's one answer to that and one answer alone, in my opinion. And the answer is happy. That's it, right? But you got to fail a lot to figure out what makes you happy, right? Because there's a lot of perception of what makes you happy. And I think those one percenters to me are actually, I've always considered myself slightly above average, right? That's kind of where I feel comfortable at, right? Like, I know I'm never going to be excel at a certain level just because I'm just, there's certain things I'm just not willing to put in the effort for to get to that level, even though I know I could, but I'd have to, I'd have to sacrifice a lot of other things that I enjoy to be able to achieve that.

So, you know, I remember vividly, I forget, what was the movie of the guy who climbs, uh, was it free, free climbers, whatever it was, it was this one guy who claimed like the biggest rock in the world, like free climber, whatever it was. And he came to do a presentation at a kickoff, right? And it was supposed to be this motivational, and the guy's a little bit of a weird bird obviously lives in his van and all this other stuff, but he, he walks through his whole process and I was like, holy smokes, like that is ridiculous, right? And it was almost demotivating to me because first of all, he, I loved him because at the end he goes, well, I'm not exactly a motivational speaker. So, uh, thanks for having me.

See you later. Just walked off stage. So it was like the biggest dud of a motivational speech as you could ever. And I just burst out laughing because I thought it was brilliant. But what it was for me, it was a little demotivating. Cause I'm looking at the guy, I'm like, he sacrificed his entire life, friends, family, name it. He lived in a van by himself. He did this every day of his life. And I looked at that and I was like, under no circumstances, is there anything in my life that I would put that much effort into? I mean, I hate to say, but even my daughter, you know, even my kid, as much as I love my kid, I'm not going to dedicate my entire life to my kid. And so I think a lot of people have that, wow, look at Kobe Bryant, look at, uh, you know, people like that.

And it's like, that is incredible. But are you really willing to put in the work that Kobe Bryant put in to be that good at what he did? I don't think so. And so for me, it's actually comforting to see some of that being like, yeah, great. Good for you. But who are the people who are above average and doing normal shit, but, but are doing it really, really well. That's who I look for. And I think, I wish we would, we would celebrate those people more. Yeah. Can I add another piece to this? Please. Because you're absolutely right. And the other piece is that one of the things that we often do when we look at the high achievers is we ask them, well, what did it take to get there? And of course, everybody wants to create a live narrative for themselves.

It gives them dignity and self-respect. So they tell you they worked really hard. It's made loads of sacrifices. They stayed the course and they ended up winning. However, there were other factors that we don't discuss that were also important. Being born in the right social circumstances, for instance, having the help and support, perhaps the family members, particularly in an entrepreneurial context, by the way. And that's a controversial statement, but it certainly helps. If you're an athlete, having the right genes, you know, having really good genes, a good lung capacity, height, physical advantages, and all the rest of it, really important. All of these things, by the way, have got nothing to do with that hard work, that work, and all the rest of it.

And I'm not saying these people didn't do those things. Nope. But I think it's also really important that we also have a conversation about those other factors that also are important when it comes to success. And actually, if we talk to people that didn't quite make it over the bar, why didn't they? What were the reasons? And I think we can learn just as much, actually, from the average Joe, as we can from the unicorn achiever, about what it takes to be successful. I think we can learn more. I think we can learn more. Yeah, I agree. And that's why, so you tapped on something that is near and dear to my heart, which is the concept of privilege. I mean, I have this tattoo on my arm that my dad wrote on his desk when I found, after he passed, and I found it said, "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." And that to me is, I'm trying to change the word privilege to advantaged, because I think privileged kind of immediately puts up defenses when you tell somebody they're privileged because their perception is, is I was given something, right?

And it doesn't take away from the hard work. Exactly. It's just, to your point, there's other factors here that put you in a position to be that successful. So for instance, one of my favorite videos about this is there's a, I don't know if he's a professor, but he's out in a field and there's a whole bunch of people out on a football field, if you will, right? And at the end, everybody's in line. He's like, "All right, I got $100 here. Whoever wins this race, wins this $100." He goes, "Hold on." And everybody's ready to go. But then he's like, "Hold on a second. Before this, if your parents are still together, if they're still married, take two steps forward. If your parents paid for college for you, take two steps forward.

If you've never had to worry about where your next meal came from, take two steps forward." And he just goes through all these things that maybe somebody like you and I or whatever would be like, "Yeah, okay, yeah, no problem. I'm just going to keep walking." And what happens is at the end, there's two or three white guys like look like me. And then if you look at all the way back at the rest of that field, it's everybody else. And then he's like, "All right, go." He's like, "Who the hell do you think is going to win this race?" So I think it just puts perspective on like, yeah. And it's like Obama. Obama got destroyed a while back when he said, "If you're an entrepreneur, you did not get here by yourself." People are like, "What the fuck?

I worked my ass off for this." It's like, "No, yeah, but guess what? There was somebody who paved the road so you could drive to work. There was somebody who picked up your trash so that you could actually do these things. There was somebody that cleaned this." So you didn't technically do it by yourself, right? None of us do. But yet we have this mentality of like the self-made man, the self-made person. It's like nobody's self-made in this world. Yeah. Right? I mean, I totally agree. And individuals don't build cycle lanes or pick up the trash. Like you say, we're a community and a lot of successes are based on other people's work and efforts. And I think there's a part in modern society that perhaps needs to have a conversation about that.

But this goes back to my upbringing, my background, and one of the things that I learned through that is that we focus, I think, too much on the trappings of advantage. And I think you're right. I think we should be calling these in terms of advantage, you know, the house, the car, and all the rest of it. But what we perhaps don't focus on enough is one of the more important aspects of advantage, and that's an absence of obstacles. And that is because, you know, that's what drove me crazy. You know, that's what made me exceptionally hard working, working well beyond comfort because every time I felt like I was making progress, something else would come along and slap me. Like, whether it be student loan debt, debt repayments, whether it be houses going to the moon, whether it be stability in a job, moving from one job to another and having to move and rent from different landlords who are just jacking on their rent all the time.

I never feel like I'm ever making any progress, even though I'm working my ass up, because all of these obstacles that keep being confronted with me whenever I feel like I'm making any progress. And that like over time, there's only so much of that like psychologically you can take before you push yourself so crazy in trying to overcome these things that just frankly are so ingrained and systemic that there's very little you can do. And that certainly was part of my own perfectionism. I know it's part of a lot of people's perfectionism. And one of the things I would try to do in the book actually is to move away from the individual lens of this problem and look at it in a more societal lens and ask why is it that so many people feel these pressures?

Well, it's because a lot more obstacles are being erected and it's becoming much harder to make it in modern society. And that, and that is much, obviously that's, that's also graded, you know, some people have less obstacles, some people have more, but more and more of us are encountering more and more of them. And I think that's why we've seen more. Why do some people look at obstacles as obstacles and other than other look at them as opportunities, right? Because there are people where it's just like, all right, that happened. Let's keep going. Right. Versus holy shit, that happened. Oh my God, I can't believe that just happened. Right. And you know them as well as I do. Right. And, you know, I've really tried to, I mean, and look, I don't think there's, it's again, it's not a black or white thing, right?

We all have instances where both of those things occur, but there are more optimistic people. Absolutely. Is optimism a, an anti trait to perfectionism? Yes, absolutely. And there's a lot of evidence that says optimism is a trait and you'll see, you'll meet up optimistic people wherever you, wherever you go. And it's a breath of fresh air. Yeah. Actually, because they do have this kind of zest and this ability to just bounce back all the time, um, with some energy, it's incredible. I wouldn't call myself necessarily a pessimistic person, but I wouldn't call myself an optimistic person either. I think, I think I've always wanted to do well. I've taken that work of it from, from a young age and always carried it forward.

But sometimes it's definitely felt that, uh, you just, you can never move forward. And that does instill a sense of, um, you know, when is it going to change? When is it going to turn? And now, of course, we're just entering into a whole new like economic, uh, situation, which is making things a lot, uh, tougher for young people. And luckily, like, you know, I've got to a stage in my life where I have some stability and I'm in a very privileged position where I can like reflect on life, take it a little bit easier, become a little more philosophical about things. It's not as easy I don't think for eating people today. Um, but it is. I love, I love people who like, who've made it and say, oh, money isn't, you know, money isn't the answer yet.

They're sitting on a pile of cash and some kids trying to pay their rent. It's like, all right, asshole to you, money's nothing because you've already got it. Don't tell me that money isn't the driver here. Cause I need it right now. So I think that's a little asinine for people to reflect back on their careers and tell people what they should have done, even though they went through all the same shit that those people are going through. Yeah. I have to check my periods all the time because it's very, I could have been somewhere else. There's another situation. I could have been in prison. I could have been, I could have been like, that's a very real possibility for me. If you simulate my life with Monte Carlo simulation, thousands of times, I only end up where I am once maybe like, I will, uh, most of the time I'll be okay.

I'll still be in the head down and a non-zero probability that I'm in, I'm in serious trouble, uh, just depending on how life goes. And I think, you know, again, it is, I can look back now. I think, you know, I can take this optimistic mindset moving forward. And I try to, um, but I do understand where pessimism comes from among young people because it is tougher. And especially if you're poor, it's really hard now, uh, with the way that inequality is to kind of lift yourself up. So, you know, I, I, I'm in reverence to optimistic people, particularly if they come from difficult circumstances, because I've always think it's like a superpower. Totally. So how do we fix this? Let's finish up with how do we fix this?

I mean, I think you talk, you know, I've heard you talk about how you just, to a certain degree, just let it go, right? Like realize that perfectionism isn't a, a thing. You can't be perfect at anything you do, right? I, I used to say, strive for perfection, settle for excellence, right? Which I actually disagree now with, because I don't think we should strive for perfectionism because I think that does get in the way of productivity. And I do think it's a very negative way of looking at things because you're almost always going to disappoint yourself. So how do we break this cycle outside of just letting it go and be like, ah, no, we're cool. I'm fine with failure. That type of thing. Are, are there pieces, are there things that you've seen work for people to break the cycle of perfectionism and get more towards happiness and realism?

Yeah. I think in every, people's everyday lives and we'll talk about the workplace because the workplace is a very dominant form that most people are. It's about reconnecting with the reason you went into what you're doing. Yeah. The why. Why did you do it? Like, why did you go into sales? Why did you go into technology? Why did you want to be an engineer? What was it about computer programming that really, um, uh, interested you? Like, why did you do it? And reflect on that. Ask yourself, what is it that you're here? Um, and, and, and find ways to connect with that intrinsic, uh, motivation. Um, see the challenge, see the, you see the beauty and the curiosity. Just put yourself out there, right?

Write that code, uh, experimental code that you know is 99% chance. It's not going to work. It's not going to put up, but there's a 1% challenge. So write it. Yeah. And if it doesn't work on it and iterate it and, and, and that's, that for me would be the biggest thing to try to connect with the reason that you're doing this and, and, and, and try to issue those, uh, external pressures that are going to be bombarded at your time and time again to work harder, be more, do more, get promotion, get the pay rise. All these things, by the way, are really, really important, but they come as a byproduct, not because of, um, uh, our, uh, our intrinsic motivation. And I think it's really important to try to reconnect that.

So I, I would ask, encourage all your listeners to ask why they're here. Why, what's the purpose? What's the meaning that you're generating from doing this activity and try to reconnect with that and put yourself out there, take risks, be curious, uh, don't be afraid to screw up. Um, and if I'd actually put yourself out there in positions where you will screw up, because I think there's something that that can teach us too about our perfectionism, you know, what is that person worth living in fear of? Is that perfect person we want to be really worth living in fear of? When you fail and when you screw up, you find out actually it's not because the consequences that for you are not as catastrophic you think they are.

And there's something that you can always take away from it. So I definitely encourage to reconnect with, uh, why it is that you're in the position that you're in, that you're doing what you're doing and, uh, explore the curiosity, be brave, be courageous and, uh, put yourself out there. Yeah. There's a beautiful, have you ever seen the George Clooney movie up in the air? Yes, I have actually. I don't watch many films, but I have seen that one. It's a great one. So one of my favorite scenes is when they're showing the human component of how he fires people, right? Because like, you know, that girl was there to automate everything and make it super efficient and all this other stuff. And he was sitting in front of the guy who does the, uh, the commercials now for state farm.

And, uh, I think it's state farm, but, uh, and he, and he's fired him and he's like, yeah, he's like, I've been here for however many years. And the girl's like, well, sir, you know, you've got a great pack. And he's like, fuck you. You know? And then Clooney comes in and he goes, can I ask you something? He goes, when, how much did they pay you to give up on your dreams first time? And he's like, what? And he's like, basically, fuck you. He says, it's a down here. It says you, you went to chef school. Like, and you didn't go to any chef school. You went to the chef school. He's like, so you wanted to be a chef, but for some reason you took a turn and you went into this corporate world. He's like, how much did they pay you to give up your, on your dreams?

And he just then just sighs and he goes, $34,000. And he's like, this is an opportunity for you. Right? So instead of this failure, you got fired that opportunity. And I think that's what I, I actually just posted this yesterday, as a matter of fact, because LinkedIn has this insiders group that I'm a part of, and they want to post your journey, your path. They call it your path. And I got fired when my first company got acquired by Staples. Right? I got fired and I had never been fired before in my life. And it was like, it hit me like an absolute ton of bricks. Right? I mean, self-conscious, I was like, holy shit, I'm not good enough anymore. That type of thing. But after self-reflecting for a fair, you know, for actually a relatively short period of time, it was one of the best things that could ever happen to me because I knew I wasn't the right fit.

I was fighting an uphill battle that I wasn't ever going to win. And so it, and it was constraining me in a level that it was just unhealthy for my mental health over anything else. And when they made the decision to fire me, it opened up my eyes to so many other things and also helped me address, even though I am not a perfectionist, I do have pride, you know, and I, and I do have a self-worth that I look at. And when those types of things happen, they chip away at your self-worth. But what I'm trying to figure out is how do we get people to make that switch of taking that negative feedback that's happening all around them and, and unlocking that as an opportunity for them to expand their, their horizons as opposed to contracts.

And I think that's where I think all of us are on a continuous journey on that. But, um, I think it's, I think it's a, it's an interesting one to follow. Let's put it there. Absolutely. It's such an important point. And, um, fight, fight, just, you know, we hire people, we hire people for reasons. We go into industries for reasons, you know, we trust them. We, we, we, you know, they've got skills and abilities. I think it's about, it's about putting faith in people to fulfill those skills and abilities in ways that enhance, enhance the company. And, um, that's, that's the most important thing. I think sometimes we get trapped in this sense of there needs to be a kind of prod from below all the time that people, you know, we need to keep controlling people into action when actually it's much more important that we give them environments that allow them to flourish using their skills and abilities that we've hired.

Oh, by the way, and that movie has a great ending. Yeah. So, uh, I won't spoil it for listeners, but that got me, that got me. That, that was again, a wake up call for me, right? Cause I, cause I was actually George Clooney. I didn't cheat on my wife or anything, but that was a, uh, that I was, you know, 2 million miles in 10 years. I was on an airplane every day. I had all the, you know, cards and played the games and all that other stuff, as far as points was concerned. And it was one of those things that, you know, just going back to briefly reflecting on your why, like you talk about like, why are you doing things? I, you know, after COVID hit, um, and then my dad passed, I had to take a, I had to take a step back and really kind of reset and understand re re-evaluate my why via re-evaluate my values.

And what was eyeopening to me and unfortunate was I've always said family is, is top on the list as far as values are concerned. And when I was going through this with my business coach, she goes, you know, you know, you, the value exercise, right? There's 50 values. You pick the 20 that are your, and then you pick the five and then your force rank, which ones, right? And I put fail. And I remember when I was going through the force ranking of it, I said, well, isn't family, like always number one, isn't that kind of a default number one value? And he goes, oh, he goes, if you want family to be the number one value, you have to write it down and you have to live it. You have to ask yourself every decision that you make, how is this going to impact my family?

And what it made me realize was that I, you know, I was fooling myself. I was saying that I was traveling all over this world because of my family. And so I can provide for my family and my daughter could have the opportunities and my wife could too, but that wasn't really the case. I was doing it because I was really fucking good at what I did. And I, I enjoyed being the guy up on stage, flying around the world, going to Singapore for a day and Australia for a day. And, you know, and being able to tell people that felt really fucking good. And yeah, did my bet my family benefit financially? Sure. But did they benefit from me as a father and a husband? I will say, you know, so, so it really kind of punched me in the, in the face as far as, okay, going back to values and why and now once you reset on that and you really, really kind of dive into that, you start to realize what's really important.

And then I think a lot of that perfectionism tends to melt away when you realize what your core values are, what your why is, and especially if you're living it. Because you're not living those values and you're not living your why, you're always going to be in this perpetual loop of I'm not good enough and whatever, and all that other stuff. But if you know in your heart what they are and you make your decisions based on that, then perfectionism tends to fall apart because you start to realize what's important. So true. Oh my goodness me, that hits home. And that's a really powerful message for listeners. I think it's really important to reflect on that. And, and, and John, I'm glad, I'm glad you were able to, and hopefully it's made a positive impact on your life, right?

Absolutely. A hundred percent. So that's, that's so important. Love it. Well, it's called The Perfection Trap: Embracing the Power of Good Enough, which I love and, and I really recommend. So talk to people about where they can find out more information about you, Thomas, about the book, um, and, uh, where they can learn more about what's going on with you, what you're doing. Thomas Curran: Thanks John. Yeah. Um, I, um, on line, I've got a website, uh, tomcurran.com, Thomas with T-H-O-M, Curran spelled C-W-A-N. Uh, if you Google Thomas Curran, The Perfection Trap, you'll find the book and it's available at all good stores. And please, I'd encourage listeners, if you do pick a copy, uh, pick up a copy, do reach out and contact me, because I love to hear from readers.

Love it. Awesome, Thomas. Well, I really appreciate you coming on here. I thoroughly enjoy the conversation and, uh, I think we could keep going on this, but to try to keep the audience back to that down, down to, under the hour here, I think we're going to wrap things up. So any, any final thoughts that you wanted to share with the audience on the way out the door? No, it's great. I've really enjoyed our chat and, uh, thank your listeners for listening. I hope you enjoyed it too. Thomas Curran: Brilliant. Thanks Thomas. And, uh, look, everybody, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did here. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, look, go out there and make somebody smile today, because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, you go out there and make somebody smile and you know you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now.

So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough. Now to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also check out my new website at www.johnmbarrows.com where you'll find even more ways to engage. There's a ton of free content and you can also get trained from me directly as an individual or for your team. Look, I'm out there selling every day, just like you are, and I'm doing my best to stay on top of all the latest trends in technology.

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