John Talty: Nick Saban’s Leadership Secrets

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And this was a real interesting conversation with John Talte. Now, John is a senior sports editor and SEC insider for Alabama Media Group, the leading statewide news organization down there. And he wrote a book on Nick Saban. He's been following Nick Saban around for about eight years and wrote a book called The Leadership Secrets of Nick Saban. And I don't care what you think of Nick Saban. I'm not really big into college football these days, but I know he's the GOAT when it comes to college football.

He's got more championships and more pedigree than anybody else in that space. And so there's obviously things that he's doing right down there. And we dove into that with his book. He peeled out the process and Saban's longstanding career success and how he has really formulated this very specific process that he goes to. We learn what that process is. We also talk about leadership and how recruiting and how much time Saban spends on recruiting and how he gives feedback and how he structures his day and the art versus the science and how much of it is science versus his gut. And also how to instill a sense of urgency into his team and not just focus on one end goal of winning a championship, but improving every single day.

So I found this book really interesting. Again, I'm not a huge college sports fan, but I pulled a lot of great nuggets out of this that I definitely can use in my day-to-day life of how to improve things just a little bit better. Maybe not to get about seven championships or so, but to keep getting better every day. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. What's happening, make it happen family. Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Vidyard and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes.

Vidyard makes it easy for people to use videos anywhere. No matter whether you're sending videos in email or on social media, posting them somewhere or sending them in a DM, Vidyard has got you covered. Our friends at Chili Piper are so much fun to be around. They make it easy for people to get on your calendar and every sales rep has got to have this function locked in. It's one of the most important things we can do as a seller. How can I get you on my calendar easily? Chili Piper can make that happen for you. Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. John Taldy, welcome to the podcast, my friend.

How are you doing? Good. I appreciate talking to another John. Always a good thing. Makes it easy, right? So talk to us a little bit, the audience here, and again, the intro, but we're going to be talking about leadership on this podcast and some very specific things that you've learned from Nick Saban, who is arguably the greatest college coach of all time. I'm sure people outside of Bama would probably debate that, but I think it's hard to deny his success. So let's back up a little bit here though, John. Give the listeners a little bit of perspective on who you are, where you're coming from, and then what you spent the past, you know, five, six, seven, eight years learning from Nick and then what you're doing now.

Yeah, sure. So I grew up in New Jersey, nowhere near Alabama, nowhere near the SEC. Very much pro sports team kind of guy, unfortunately, a New York Jets fan, a Knicks fan, a lot of bad teams that I've been around. But, you know, so grew up in that environment and, you know, kind of loved sports. But also my dad worked on Wall Street for a long time. And so I kind of always had this joint love of sports and business. And my first job at a college was actually as a business reporter. And, you know, I've since covered sports for, you know, more than a decade, but, you know, I've always kind of had that background. And so as I covered Alabama and Nick Saban, and he's been on this incredible run, you know, the greatest run in college football history, I think.

One of the things that I got over and over again from people was that he runs it like a business, right? And like all of these people, even the SEC commissioner has said like Nick Saban could be a Fortune 500 CEO. And so you hear this from all these people and you wonder like, is that real or is that bullshit? You know, like, is there actually like real things here? Or is it that he's just running it slightly better than other college football programs? And so we think that's actually like a business. And so I wanted to test that idea. I wanted to see, are there real business principles behind what this guy's doing? Are there real things that he does that are translatable outside of just college football?

And that was kind of the genesis of the idea for me. And, you know, one of my top goals was to show you not only how Nick Saban does what he does, how he's been able to win seven national championships, how he's done all these different things, but to explain to you the why, to explain to you why he does these different things, to explain to you why on this day he does this and on every single day he starts his day doing this so that someone who maybe doesn't care about college football at all can add a couple of things from Nick Saban's daily routine into their own life and make themselves a little bit more efficient, a little bit more effective. Yeah. And I think that's, it's always interesting to me to try to figure out that translation, right?

Between something outside of business and a sport. And the analogies are across the board. I'm curious from your standpoint though, like, you know, I read through a decent amount of the book and some of the highlights in the chapters too. And a lot of it was stuff that you hear a decent amount of, right? Like be set really clear expectations, hold people accountable, have a structure to it and all these other things. So if you were to kind of macro out a little bit and say the stuff that you know about business with the business background, it's funny that Nick Saban, actually his first degree was in business, right? His undergrad was in business and then he got into sports for this masters.

So I think he has that knack to him as well. But what were the things that stood out for you that were really kind of like, Ooh, you know, like not like just to your point, like a little bit better than everybody else, but like, wow, that is something that, you know, if people did do that or took that from Nick, that would make an impact compared to what everybody else is talking about motivation and structure and expectation setting. Is there anything that really stood out for you? Yeah, I think the number one thing, and it's, you know, it's in some ways, you know, a famous thing in sports, but you know, I can't pretend like every single person listening to this is super familiar with college football.

So his thing, he calls it the process, right? This is his kind of big overall strategy. And what that is, is focusing essentially on the process to have success and not just on the results. And so at Alabama, there are no signs talking about how their number one goal is to win a national championship. There's no signs talking about how they win, want to win the SEC championship. They're not, it's, it's so much more focused on what we need to do on a daily basis to put ourselves in a position to have success rather than focusing on exclusively what this top goal is or what this result oriented thing that we want is. And I think that that's really powerful because so much of our society is the opposite, right?

And especially if we're talking about sales, it's incredibly results oriented. It's incredibly, I need to sell 50 of these things to be successful. And his thing is really the opposite of that. And I think it works out really well for a couple of reasons. One of which I think is that it gives you almost this like impossible task in the sense that like, you're always kind of trying to be better and you're always trying to climb up this mountaintop. But it allows you to continue, I think, to move forward once you've had success. And so if you say, all right, I want to sell 50 things this month. When you hit 50, you can say, all right, I'm done. I hit 50. Like that's, that was my goal. I hit my goal.

That's awesome. Versus like, if your goal is I want to be better today than I was yesterday, well, then you don't care about it. Like you just want to do what you can do every single day to reach ultimately these different things. And it also, I think it's been really helpful at Alabama, where if again, if you have solely a results oriented strategy, you know, say, John, you're a part of a 10 man team, and you want to win a client over and you guys win the client, but maybe you did like actually kind of a shitty job as you're part of it. And so you could say, well, you know, like we got we won, you know, we got the success. So like, that's awesome. And that's all that matters. That's, you know, we won versus looking at all right, like, did I actually do what I needed to do to be successful?

And so if you're, I think, base it solely on just win or lose, sometimes you might not be realizing that you're not doing what you actually need to do. And I think that eventually catches up to you. And so his big thing is like, he's so anti complacency, because he knows at Alabama, you're going to have a lot of success. It doesn't mean that you're doing things the right way all the time, though, just because the operation is so strong that the individual has to be more than just did the team win or not. Right. So, and I, you know, I actually completely agree with that. I've never been like a hardcore goal setter. It's like, oh, I got to, you know, hit this mark. And if I don't hit it, you know, I'm definitely more of an evolutionist in the sense that I kind of go along the way.

But to your point, like one of my 12 guiding principles is 1% better every single day. The challenge with that, though, from a business standpoint, let's talk from a sales standpoint is how do you motivate, if you will, right? I was reading a little bit of when he first got in, you know, he kind of treated everybody the same. And he realized, I can't do that. I have to have different approaches for different styles of people and such. So what is his kind of philosophy on the, you know, getting people motivated to get better every day without that big promise of the national championship, because that for a lot of recruits, right? It's like, oh, if you come on board here, we'll win the national championship.

That's a motivator. And now that gets to recruiting, and then they're on board, and then they have a goal to go for. But getting people to motivate every single day to be better than they were yesterday, how did they, has he coached towards that? How does he measure that? And where are some of the challenges with that approach? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think inherently, that's a really challenging thing. And so again, I think even from, again, that macro standpoint, you can say focus on the process, not the results. Really simple, right? But like, actually living your life every single day based on living that and not just focusing on the results is incredibly hard to do. Especially when we're talking about a group of 18 to 23 year old, you know, kids, you know, and that's incredibly hard.

And so I think one of the important things, and I write about this in the book, is that like, I think a lot of times, you know, we get motivated off of something that happens, right? You know, you lose a job, you get divorced, whatever it might be. And you have, you know, we call that sense of urgency, that burning platform. All right, I have to go work out more now. I have to do these things. The challenge, and I think what Saban does really well, is creating that sense of urgency every single day. And so it's not just based off, we lost the game, we got to do better now. It's every single day, there needs to be that sense of urgency. And he lives his life that way. I mean, I've talked to enough people who will tell you, he is just as fired up in the middle of May, to what needs to be done as he is in December, when a huge game is happening.

And so if you can actually live your life that way every day, the kids are going to see that consistency. And they're going to know, all right, like, you know, he's not just getting us hyped up, because we're playing Auburn in the Iron Bowl, and that's our top rival, like, he's in May saying, if you don't do it today, you're not going to be ready come October, November, and all those different things. And so it's a constant message. And you said earlier about the accountability, that's a huge part, too. And he is very good at immediately stepping in and correcting the problem. And I think one of the things that I noticed as somebody who manages people who has been managed all these different things, we love to complain after the fact, like, oh, man, you know, like, Steve just didn't get it just didn't get it done this year, you know, and versus like, all right, well, did you tell me wasn't getting it done?

Like, did you wait five months after the fact in your annual review? Or did you stop it right away? And like, you know, for better or worse, like, Nick Saban is stopping it right away. Like, if you're not getting it done, he's pulling you aside. And like, that is not how we do it here. And so there's that constant sense of urgency and pressure for everyone in that building, knowing if I don't do what I need to do, like, I'm going to get yelled at. And I'm like, going to be held accountable for what my jobs are every single day. It sounds like though, that a lot of this has to do with the type of people he recruits, right? Because there was a quote in the book that said, mediocre people don't like high achievers and high achievers don't like mediocre people, right?

And so the idea of that is that I'd be interested in your perspective of where we are and how things have maybe changed over the years, right? I'm look, I'm a Gen Xer, right? I'm used to earn it, like, shut your, you know, shut your mouth. Let's get after it every day. Like, that's how I kind of grew up in sports and everything else. And now we're in a different world here. Like, now that, like, hit you in the face, like, that's not as universally accepted, if you will, as far as urgency, go, go, go. So is a lot of what Nick's success based off of is him finding the people that will, will accept that type of urgency? Because one more piece to this equation, like, I figure out, like, I look at myself, I'm a pretty motivated guy, right?

And I need people every once in a while to get me off my ass. But if I had somebody in my face every, fucking day being like, go, go, go, go, go, I'd be like, all right, dude, enough. You know what I mean? So, so what's the, what's his profile, if you will? And how much does that matter with compared to his coaching style? Yeah. And so I think there's a couple of things to say there. I think one, he certainly has evolved, you know, his style over the years. He has to, you know, I write about this in the book, you know, like what he's doing in 1989 was a lot of that. Like he, and there's one of the guys even says, like, you know, he would just be getting up in these guys faces who are bigger than him and just let them have it.

Like he's, you know, not that he never does it anymore. It's be clear he does, but it's not the same approach because he's also in what happens anywhere. Like you have enough success. It's a little bit easier in 2022 for him than it was in 1989 when nobody knew who he was. And so I think he's able to, you know, approach it a little bit differently. And to your point, kids in 2022 need a different style than 1989. I was born in 1989. You know, I'm different than 2022 kids coming to college. Like it's just the way it is. But I do think one of his key things has been at Alabama. Like, like you said, like, I'm not going to promise you anything. That's when he recruits these top players and it's a different pitch than the average person.

A lot of these kids are being told you're the man. You're going to come here. You're going to start. We're going to build our team around you. Like, oh, you want to be number seven. We got that for you. All these different things. And Saban's approach is the opposite in which it says like, I'm giving you literally nothing. All I'm offering you is an opportunity. And what that works at Alabama is that it actually, it's like a beacon to highly motivated people because they will see that and say, oh, I'm going to prove to you that you're going to have to give me those things because I'm going to bust my ass and I'm going to take it from you. And so I write about it in the book for the 2019 recruiting class.

And at Alabama, again, if you're not a huge college football fan, like they basically get the top recruiting class every single year. You know, they've been, he's built a monster. They get the top players every year. And so 2019, these kids can go anywhere they want. You know, they can go to Michigan, Texas, you know, Oklahoma, Clemson, whatever. And 33% of the kids from that recruiting class explicitly said the number one reason why they came to Alabama was because Nick Saban promised them nothing. And they, they, they liked that. They liked like, all right, it inherently challenged them motivation wise. And so, you know, we think about the younger generation. There's, I mean, that was a couple of years ago and those there's, so there's still lots of highly motivated people who like that idea of gives them a little chip on their shoulder.

You're not giving me anything. Okay. I'll prove it to your ass, you know? And so he's been very good at finding those people who are going to be built to succeed in his system because he promises them nothing. Yeah. I mean, I, again, the analogy is the belt. I know him and Belichick are, are real, real tight friends and they take a lot from each other and Belichick's the exact same way. I'm curious if Belichick's approach, I don't think Belichick might have, has a, uh, we'll see how it works this year, right? Whether he's evolved enough to be able to connect with. And I mean, Mac Jones comes from Nick Saban. So I'm, I'm assuming Mac is going to take the same direction from Belichick, but I, I fear as a New England Patriots fan that Belichick's whole approach was great for the time that it was, but it doesn't necessarily translate.

And I've seen him soften up over the years, obviously, but he still is do your job. You know what I mean? And there's no, there's no preferential treatment here. And so I think to your point that attracts a certain type of person and it did to the Patriots when the Patriots were the Patriots. Right. But now with Tom Brady, like the question right now for the Patriots is, were people really coming because it was the Patriot way and Bill Belichick or were the players really coming? Cause they wanted to play with Tom Brady. Right. Because like, like they knew that, holy shit, this is the greatest quarterback of all time. So, and that's the kind of going to be the never ending debate between those two.

So it's always interesting because I think you see it in other, like other sports too, I remember like with the bulls and then the Lakers, like, is it Phil Jackson or is it Kobe or Phil Jackson and MJ, you know, like when you have an incredible coach and incredible player, you know, there's always that, like, who's, who gets all the credit, you know, I've seen that a lot from the Patriots and, you know, I'm sure Tom Brady loved nothing more than to win a Superbowl away from the Patriots as, you know, that was a nice little F you for Belichick. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's been interesting because I do think there is a lot of similarities because I think for a lot of them, it's definitely more about the system than the individual, you know, and it's definitely the same way at Alabama and Saban does use do your job all the time.

Like he doesn't always say it's do your job, but that's what it is. Everyone has a job. And if you do your job and you don't worry about anything, but your job, then you, then you're going to be really successful. You know, you get everybody in your organization doing that. I mean, I always say like the best sales reps I come across aren't the, aren't the ones who murder their quota at the end of the quarter or whatever it is. It's the ones who do the basics consistently, right? If you do the fundamentals consistently, and again, I use Belichick as an example all the time. There's this beautiful example of this gray. He was a, he was a running back and he was a rookie running back and he came in, he scored five touchdowns and he made this cover of sports illustrated, right?

The next, the next week. And he thought he was special, right? So he showed up to practice 15 minutes late. Belichick literally benched him for the rest of the season. Went and got blunt from, uh, from Pittsburgh Steelers, put them in a system and blunt scored four touchdowns the next game. And so basically Belichick was like, just hit the fucking hole. You're not so special kid. If you just run the play, you hit the hole, it'll be there. So, you know, you didn't score five touchdowns. The system scored five touchdowns. Right. And I've seen that a lot with Saban too, where he values consistency and mistake free. And I see that a lot at the Patriots too, where it's like, I'd rather have a guy I can trust out there.

Like, you know, again, not to go turn the weeds, but a punt returner is a great example. Like Nick Saban would rather have a guy who maybe gets a couple less yards per punt, but who's never going to fumble it. You know, he's like, I want a guy who I can trust back there. Who's consistent every single time. And that's, I think you probably, you know, in any aspect of life or business, like if you have a go-to guy, you know, you can trust. And even if he doesn't, you know, it's not the sexiest guy who wows you all the time, but consistent numbers are consistent numbers. I love consistent numbers. I got guys on my team, like you're consistently getting me numbers. I'm happy about that. You know, the no variation is nice.

And so there is a lot to be said about being consistent every single day and not having these wild variations. How do you trust that? Just if we, if we step back from that for a minute, um, as an employee or as a, as a, um, athlete in that system, do you just trust the system and do your job or where is it your part to challenge the system? And, and has Nick ever allowed for that? Yeah, I think he has. And so there are a couple of different methods for that. So he builds, uh, you know, he's got these leadership committees basically of players that he is. And when he does with them, it meets with them weekly. And he's asking them basically like, like how is practice? Like, how are guys feeling about it?

Are we doing too much? We're not doing enough. You know, like that speech I gave yesterday, like did it go over well? Like, are guys not buying in? Like, so he's constantly, he's using his kind of trusted guys to be his eyes and ears. So he's figuring out, you know, all right, this, there's that. Um, there was a moment, I write about it a little bit in the book, but like, there was a moment, you know, during 2020 where a lot of members of the team were impacted, you know, by the George Ford situation and they wanted to do a march and they basically went to Saban and like, we'd like for you to kind of participate. And he's like, yeah, let's do it. Like I was waiting for you guys to come and ask me.

And so, you know, I can't imagine 1989 Nick Saban ever doing that. He's so apolitical. He doesn't want to get involved in anything. And here he is like, all right, I need to do this to show my team and my people that like, I care about them and that like, I want them to know how I feel. And so I've seen that evolution for him, you know, again, just from Alabama from 2007 to now 2022, I think he's, his personality has evolved a lot. And what he has to show to people has to evolve because it is important. It's so important to get that buy-in. And if guys think that they're just another number or just a kind of a peg in the line, like they're not going to do what you need them to do. They have to buy into the mission.

They have to buy into the vision. And I think he's been good at evolving that kind of vision over the years so that guys believe it to be genuine. Yeah. I mean, that's leadership one-on-one in the sense that I get a lot of executives who ask me, you know, hey, John, how do I get my team to work hard? You know, they're not. And I'm like, when was the last time you actually really genuinely painted a vision for them about where you're taking this and how they fit into that vision, right? Because I've always said, if you don't have a vision, if people don't feel part of something bigger than themselves, then they're just going to do their job. They will literally just, you know, nine to fivers will show up at nine and they'll leave at five.

But if you paint a picture, a vision for them of where we can go and what your part is, people will do 10 times more than what they're being paid for if they believe in it. And I think that's what Nick has been able to do. He's been able to really get people to buy into this bigger picture vision of what they can be as human beings, as what they can be as team, as a team, and what they can do, not just to win the SEC title or whatever it might be. And what he's great at doing is making every single person feel important. And what they are doing is as important as anything. And so there's a scene that I write about in the book where his first meeting he has at Alabama, where he asks for every single person in the building to be there.

And I was like, it's not just the coaches. He asked for the custodians and the secretaries and he explained to them their exact role in the operation, why it was important. If they didn't do it to a certain level, it would hurt the entire operation. And so if you can have your highest employee and your lowest employee both feeling like they are just as important to the operation, like that's when you're doing big shit. And so I think that's something he's been really good at. And that's, I mean, that's like, again, it's easier sometimes said than done. Like now people be like, oh, well, I'll try to make that person on board. But you have to be able to convey that genuinely. You have to be able to like genuinely convince them that what they are doing is important.

And I think people can tell. And so it's important to have this strategy, but you also have to be able to do it authentically. And I think he authentically is able to convince people how important their job is to the overall operation and he makes them feel important. And when you feel important and you buy into the leader's vision, like you said, you will go above and beyond first. Once you start losing faith in the vision, that's when you're like, I'm going to do me. And that's when you get problems. Exactly. And, and that did strike me because when I was reading that, you know, it's the same thing with craft and the Patriots, like literally the person who mops the floors, the person who cleans the bathroom, if you interact with them, they are professional, they are courteous, they're helpful, and they represent the Patriot brand, the Patriot way, if you will, a lot of people hear about, but it's from top to bottom all the way through.

And I think craft has done a, a really good job with Belichick in implementing that throughout the entire organization. And, and I think that's what people really were attracted to. Right. And again, we'll see how, I mean, the, the interesting thing, I was, you know, have you ever read the book Good to Great? Yeah. Yeah. So the whole idea of like Lee Iacocca saved Chrysler, but as soon as he was gone, they fell apart. Whereas GE, right? Jack Welsh type of stuff. He wasn't the best. He was probably the ball's well known, but they had a system up until recently. But, but the idea of like, how far does that system run? Right? Like, so if Nick Saban, the question here is, if Bill Belichick leaves, right?

If, if Nick Saban leaves, will that system still prevail at the level and create and continuously create that level of greatness for that organization? And has he thought about his, you know, life after Nick for Alabama? Or is he still important? Well, I think he is all in. He has to be all in. Cause I think it's one of those things where the moment you stop thinking about being all in, you know, you're out. Um, and I think he's, that's something he thinks a lot about. I mean, I think, so what's interesting about it is that I view it, like I view the system and the process as like, it's not solely an Alabama thing at this point, because I think you see Kirby Smart is doing it pretty much exactly the way Nick Saban does at Georgia.

And he just won a national championship. And so even if it, maybe it doesn't continue on at Alabama, I mean, I don't, we'll see who they end up hiring when Nick Saban eventually leaves, but I see Kirby Smart at Georgia doing it pretty much exactly the way Nick Saban does. And he worked for Saban for more than a decade. I mean, it's, I write about it in the book, like I keep literally like basically took the playbook and I put Georgia logos over it. And it was like, let's do it this way of the Alabama playbook. Now there's a guy at Florida who learned under Saban. He's trying to do it very similar. So I think we've seen, they call it, there's like a Sabanization of college football that's happened and all these guys trying to do it similar to how he does it.

And so I think that's going to live on for a while whenever he decides to leave. I think you'll continue to see that influence. And it's, it's interesting, you know, not to keep going back to Saban Belichick, but it's interesting that almost none of Belichick's disciples, at least in my opinion, have done very well. Whereas quite a few of Saban's have. And so I think it's interesting that like, these guys have found ways to take some of what he's doing and make it successful. Whereas in the NFL level, I can't think of any of them. And we'll see what Josh McDaniels does in Vegas, but I can't think of any of them off the top of my head who have had much success. I guess Mike Vrabel a little bit, you know, but I don't think he was a coach.

He was just a player. Right. So, I mean, but you haven't really seen that like Belichick disciple go on to like, you do something incredible. What's up everybody. I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes and our guests consistently bring the heat. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity, an opportunity to become better than you were yesterday. And you can do so by gaining access to all of JB sales content. All of their training tips, techniques, tactics, and takeaways can be yours for $1 a day. $365 for the year gets you annual access to everything, including our private Slack channel for members only, which you get access to all of us directly a hundred percent of the time, 24 hours a day.

And then at the same time, you're going to get access to our biweekly ask me anything sessions where you can bring real deals to the table and get the help that you need where you need it. This is very, very important. Sales reps that invest in themselves are often found at the tops of their leaderboards. Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL one more time is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guests for this week. It's like that good to great thing. Like I think Belichick has a very specific way he had, and he had the top to bottom buy-in from, you know, the owner to him to the, to the, to the players. Right. And he also had the number one player.

It didn't hurt. Right. So that system made tons of sense, but I will say, I mean, you know, the debate of Belichick or Brady, you know, who's better without who again, you look at Brady and did he hide a lot of warts for Belichick system? And I think he did. Right. I mean, I think at first Belichick system was a huge benefactor to Brady because he plugged into that system. And I think we hit a lot of, I think the system hit a lot of Brady's warts. Right. Right. And, and the system won the first three Superbowls, but after that little hiatus of six years or whatever it was, and then we won another three, I think that was more Brady than the system. Right. Um, and so I'm, I'm curious to see that and, and how that legacy prevails, uh, depending on what he does over the next couple of years here.

But it sounds like Saban has really created a system of, of something that isn't just based on fear either. I think that's the other thing with Belichick. I think a lot of Belichick is, is like, is all hammer, no carrot, you know, or all stick, no carrot. Whereas it sounds like Saban has evolved over the years to use a little bit more of the carrots than the sticks, uh, in some cases to motivate people. Yeah, I think he has to. Um, and I think probably more at the player level than coaching level. Um, I think the carrot for coaches is that like, you're going to get a really good job after you leave Alabama, you know, and he has, he has rehabilitated so many coaches who have failed elsewhere.

And those guys have gone on to have a great job just by getting a little bit of that, you know, Alabama winning cologne sprayed on him. Um, but you know, like players wise, like the carrot is like, you know, playing time, obviously, but then like you come here and you do your, your job, like, you know, you're probably going to get drafted in the first round and you're probably gonna win a national championship. And there's like, and that's, and that's what I think is also so crucial that it's, it's simple, but I think we also forget about it. Like anybody can be a hard ass, anybody can be a hard charging guy, but you don't, if you can't show people that like, there's going to be a payoff to what you're asking them to do, like you're going to lose them.

And so, you know, like it's, and again, that's what I think we've seen sometimes of Belichick disciples and sometimes with some saving guys that failed too, where it's like, they're going to try to do a copycat of Belichick or saving. It's not genuine to them. They're just doing it because they think it's successful. And then, but they can't win with it. And so then guys are like, I don't want to deal with this guy who sucks to be around and we're going two and 14, you know, but if you're going 14 and two, it's different. And that's what, one of the things that I got from talking to some Alabama players, I was asking, like, what's it like all these different things. And like, it's really hard practice stuff every day.

I was like, well, like what, like what's, what's the deal then is like winning is really fun. Like that's like, that's what it's about. That's the really fun part. And so, you know, when you come to Alabama, you're going to win a lot. And that's like really, really fun. And that's, that's what makes all the hard work worth it. But, but if there was no winning, there was no payoff, then guys would tune out. You know, that's, that's what happens. You see it happen all the time at different places. What would you say his balance of art and sciences, as it relates to, you know, decisions on players, on all these different things. And when I say that objectivity versus subjectivity, right? Like he, I know in the recruiting, I mean, one of the things that really struck me in the book was how dedicated he is to recruiting and how there, isn't there a Saban rule in college now that, that doesn't allow them to travel as much as he used to.

So, I mean, it sounds like he like put some objective criteria together to just automatically get certain things off the plate. So it wasn't even worth talking if they didn't have a, you know, if they weren't six, two and, you know, had a 30, whatever inch wingspan, then it didn't even matter. Right. But then there's the subjective of like the person that, that, that, you know, the individual and do they have the motivating factors? And so what, what would you say his balance is of objectivity versus subjectivity when it comes to making decisions? I think he thinks about it really smartly. I think he does have a good balance. And so you mentioned recruiting. I think that's a good example where he does, he has, you know, these things called saving sheets basically, and they're all these different kinds of formula essentially of, and there's, you know, occasionally there'll be an exception, but for the most part, if he doesn't have X, Y, Z in terms of physical attributes, you know, how fast he can run body fat, all these different things, like we're just not considering that guy.

Like we know, cause we have this full database of the last 50 years I've been a coach. I know exactly what works. Like if he doesn't check these things, it's just not worth our time. We're not going to go for that guy. And it allows you to be a lot more efficient when you can just immediately knock out a bunch of guys. But he even says, there's a quote in that, in that chapter of the book where he tells one of his assistants, essentially within 30 minutes of watching a guy's recruiting tape, I can tell you whether he's good enough to play here or not. But like, I need you now to spend the next month figuring out like whether he can play from like a mental standpoint, because that's so much, I think harder.

And we see it, you know, with the NFL draft guys bust all the time where you think, oh, this guy's giving great. And like, it's that internal motivation. We're talking about the beginning, like, how do you determine that? How do you figure out? And one of the things that coaches talk about all the time is like, does this guy love football, you know, and you can say that about any type of business or job, like, does this guy actually like what he does? Or does he like what it gives him what it brings him? And that's, it's a real challenge, especially with sports, when you make millions of dollars, where it's like, do you want the perks that come with it? Or do you want it because you just want it?

And that's something that is, of course, subjective, and it's very, very hard to figure out. But he works a lot on that. And one of the things he does, he's been at the forefront of this, is he's done a lot of mental health, mental conditioning, he brought, he brings psychologists around, like, he has all these different guys who try to tap into that mental side, but he'll make them do surveys and tests and all these different things to figure out like, all right, like, how do we motivate this guy? How does he test on these things? All right, well, we determined based on our tests, like, you know, beating him up all the time, kicking in the butt, he's not going to like that. This guy needs to be hugged all the time and encouraged.

And this guy does not want any encouragement, he needs to be kicked in the butt all the time, if we're going to get the most out of him. And so I think he's smart, and that it's not purely just gut, you know, he's bringing in outside experts to help him. And so I think it's, it's a good mix of the subjective and objective, because I don't think, in sports, especially, I don't think objective is enough, like there is just going to be subjective stuff that like, there's no way of truly determining whether a guy has like, the heart to be the greatest. You can try to get as much info as you can, but like, only he can really know that, you know? Yeah, I mean, that couldn't have been more obvious that, you know, switching sports here for a second with baseball, right, with sabermetrics.

If you look at what Billy Bean did with the Oakland A's, it was incredible, right? He brought a team of scrap heap guys to almost win the World Series, almost. And then, if you watch the movie, it's funny, because, and this is the analogy of art and science, he tried to science everything out about the game. But then the Red Sox were like, "Hey, come on board." And he was like, "No." And so they basically took his model, but then they added a little bit of art with David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, right? So we got a bunch of scrap heap, the dirt dogs, right? Where it's all fit very, and everybody's like, "Who the hell are these?" But then the artists of David Ortiz and the clutch factor, which you can't science out the clutch factor.

There's just certain people that show up in big games, and there's certain people that don't, no matter how qualified or talented they are. And so there was that, there was like, "Okay, let's add those pieces, and then the Red Sox win the World Series," right? So there's, I personally believe that a lot of like sales and everything is probably 75-ish percent science, but that 25 percent art is what's going to get the greatness, right? Science will get you to kind of the B score, if you will, you know, B plus, but if you want to be that A, A plus, there's got to be those somewhat intangibles that are really, really hard to measure. And really, a lot of times can be identified through, you know, just trial and error or experience to say that guy's, that kid's got it, you know what I mean?

Does he have like certain interview, for instance, does he have like certain interview questions that he asked to uncover that, that it factor? Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's, it's not just asking kids, but it's also asking everyone around them. You know, it's, he has all these different people trying to ask, and it's just like, what motivates this guy? How does he react to this? How do you react to that? What do you think about this? He's always trying to just pull out reactions, I think. And so he'll throw out different tough questions just to see how a kid reacts to it and, you know, and kind of feel him out that way. But to your point earlier, I mean, and hopefully this doesn't completely derail this interview, but like, as a long time fan of the Yankees, like, what's your point you're making was like, that's Derek Jeter versus Alex Rodriguez.

Like, one is clearly more talented than the other, but like, I trusted one in a clutch moment, and I didn't trust Alex Rodriguez, you know? And so there are, there is that intangible. And I think it's, you know, sometimes these old school people in sports, like, you can't just go off the eye test, which I get like analytics and science is so important. But I don't think it can be 100%, you know, because there is something that, you know, and that's somebody says in the books to like saving does trust his eyes, you know, there are things that he sees that are little that like, are not going to show up on like, a, you know, like him working out. And one of the little ones that I love was like, he can see based on how like a guy bends his foot, whether his like, he has enough ankle flexibility to be able to drive enough power as an offensive lineman.

You know, it's just a little thing that you're not going to see that, like, you know, like, all right, he runs a four, seven 40. That's great. But like, he's like, well, that guy, like, I'm looking at his ankle right now. He's not like, he's not going to have enough power to like push off these guys. And that's just a tiny little thing that he has noticed that from doing it for 50 years, but like only he's going to be able to see that from his experience and not, it's not going to show up on any sort of like number or stat or something like that. And I think that's where the experience comes into play, right? Where grown over the years and he's been able to see some stuff. And just, if we take the Josh McDaniels example of going to Denver, you know what I mean?

He just didn't have the experience or the, the, the history to gain the respect of the players to do what he was trying to do. He was trying to be Belichick. And I think that your point of the authenticity of that makes a huge difference. You can't be somebody else. You have to be you. You have to figure out a way to adjust you to, uh, you know, whatever that system is that you want to imply, but you can't be somebody else. And I think that's the same thing in sales. I think it's the same thing in business. I see sales reps. I used to believe in the fake it till you make it mentality, right? Like, Hey, just fake it. And now I don't, I'm like, no, don't fake it till you make it like do whatever you can do and just know that you have to get better at it.

And that continuous improvement mentality, because the fake it till you make it kind of pretends like, you know what you're talking about when you don't and you get exposed for that, you get smoked. So. So the last chapter in the book is exactly about that. And it's about, you know, and I think we see this a lot in Silicon Valley. And I remember watching, you know, I love the book, uh, bad blood about, um, Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos and how she was so obsessed with Steve jobs. She started dressing the exact same way as him. And it's like, Steve jobs wearing the same thing every day, which is like an extension out of his, you know, a bill, his desire to be efficient, all these things like that, but dressing the same way every day does not make you Steve jobs.

You know, it's just a little weird thing that he did, you know? And so Nick Saban eats the same thing for breakfast and lunch every day. If you start eating the same thing as Nick Saban, it's not going to make you Nick Saban. You know, that might not be natural to you. Like personally, I like mixing up my lunches. I don't want to eat the same thing every day, you know, but there is something I think, and this is, I truly believe this, like with great leaders, whether you want to talk about Belichick, Nick Saban, Steve jobs, there is something that I think at least one thing that they do that I bet if we took and put in our lives would make us better in some regard. And so that's, that's my whole thing with this book is like, I'm not, don't be a copycat of Nick Saban.

You're probably not wired the way he is. You didn't grow up the way he did all these different things, but maybe there are three things that he does that you can say, yeah, I can deploy that in my life. And that'll be enough. That'll be enough to get you that 1% better, which I'm all about as well. And so I think that's just, sometimes that's the mistake that I see with leadership books or self-help books where it's just like, Oh, I'm going to be exactly like that guy. No, don't be like that guy. Just take a little bit out of that guy that feels natural and right to you and deploy that. And that'll be enough. Yeah. And that's, I mean, again, directly related from a sales standpoint, it's like, there's, there's 50 different personalities when it comes to selling.

Right. And some are better than others, but I kind of joke with, you know, for me, I'm John Barrows, Boston, Massachusetts. It's like, I'm about as direct and in your face as it gets when it comes to selling, because it's just, I grew up here. I mean, New York, you're probably the same thing. You probably had a hard transition down to Alabama, not being, I bet you a lot of people thought you were probably rude and, and, and too direct in a lot of ways when you went down to Alabama and you had to adjust where, so if you used your New York or Jersey style down there, you were going to get absolutely ruined. Right. So you had to adjust. No, you're not going to not be from New York and not be from Jersey and all of a sudden be a, you know, from Alabama, like you grew up there, but you can, you can adjust to the situation.

Yeah. I mean, my, I will tell you, it's funny. My, my Jersey and New York friends, I'll occasionally drop a y'all just because I've had to add it to my repertoire and they refuse to acknowledge it. My like New York friends are like, I don't know what you're talking about. We don't acknowledge that word here. Uh, so I get a lot of crap for that out of my friends, but yeah, I mean, you had to, I mean, there's, I mean, I think in some ways, like maybe this sounds bad, but I think, you know, for a journalist, salesperson, whatever, you have to be a little bit of a chameleon. You got to understand your surroundings and what, you know, what makes the most sense. Like I am very direct. That's how I've always been.

And I use that, but I also, you know, I might soften it a little bit if I'm talking to somebody from Alabama, you know, and then talking to somebody from Jersey, I might curse a little more and let it rip. And, you know, you kind of feel out who your kind of people are. I mean, for me as a journalist, I'm always trying to find, all right, what is my common denominator of this person? Right. You know, like, all right, we both like sports. All right. I'll talk to you about sports. Or like, oh, like you had an aunt who grew up in Birmingham, Alabama. Oh, cool. I live there now. Whatever it is, you find your thing. Um, but yeah, there has to be that evolution and there has to be that, you know, adaptation, I think, to your surroundings.

Well, I think that's where, you know, I always come back to like the core value piece of it. Right. Because I think if you got strong core values, then you can and should be a chameleon to the different types of people to communicate, to, you know, get them to open up to you in certain ways. You don't, if you're just you all the time and no matter what, you're going to probably, I mean, if we go back to psychology here, there's this study on neuro-linguistic programming, right? Which is the way that we communicate, right? And there's visuals, auditories, and kinesthetics. And they all like communicating in different ways. And if you don't kind of adjust to a group of people who like communicating in different ways, you're only going to be effectively communicating with 33% of the people that you're talking to.

So it actually does a disservice for you not to be a chameleon in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, for me, I give you a weird example. And again, this isn't contrived, but you know, when I go to you, because so I grew up here in Boston, I had a super thick Boston accent, like, you know, goodwill hunting style. And when I went down to Maryland, I was a joke, like people couldn't understand a word. I was actually the part, like the party favorite people that come over here and listen to this kid from Boston talk, right? And so I had to spend an entire semester getting my Boston accent out of my vocabulary. But what happened with that was, it made me a chameleon. Because now, to your point, y'all, like, if I'm down south, y'all will come out.

And it's not a forced thing. It's just because that's the way you talk. When I go to Europe, XYZ turns to XYZ or process turns to process. And I don't even like, so as soon as I think of a Europe, as soon as I hear a European accent, it's immediate switch in my brain. And it's because I've been there before. And there is a comfortability factor there because it might be conscious or subconscious, but they're like, oh, okay. As long as it's not forced and it's not contrived. I mean, this kid's been here before, you know what I mean? Like, okay, he at least knows a little bit about our scenario. He's not trying to pretend like he's somebody that he's not though. No, I completely agree. Again, I don't think it's, that's why I hesitate to say it, but I don't, I think sometimes being a chameleon can be viewed poorly, right?

Or negatively. And I don't think it is. I think it's, you know, they're probably sketchballs who are chameleons too. But like, you know, I think, I think when it's genuine, like you said, and that's what it always comes back to. It's like, if you're genuine and authentic, people realize that they know it. And like, to tie it together, like, you know, Nick Saban is really good at going into any surrounding. He's the greatest recruiter in college football. And that means recruiting kids who are from Boston or DC and from bad areas and nice areas and California and Louisiana. And like, he's got to go in all these different homes and find a way to deliver a message that is going to resonate with those people in that room.

And so you have to, you know, adjust your approach. You got to find different things to do with each kind of person. And that's not being fake. It's just about trying to understand your audience and convey the message in which they'll understand it. I might even go a little further on it. I think it's, again, if it's come from good values and all that other stuff, I actually think it's, you're doing people a disservice by not being a chameleon, because some people will not receive your message, even though they need to, because you weren't that chameleon, you weren't able to break through that barrier for them because you, you know, for me, I'm a Boston mass hole. Right. And that type of thing.

It's like, my message might be great, but you know, the core of my message might be fantastic. But if I'm coming at you and you're down in Alabama and I'm like, fuck you and fucking this and using the Lord's name in vain, all the core of my message gets thrown away. And so the, the, the person that could have gotten value from that message didn't get value from it because of how I presented it my way, as opposed to the way that, you know, might've been a little bit easier for you to accept. And that's why I think I appreciate about Nick's approach of, and the evolution of his approach of realizing that, you know, he came in guns a blazing, what in, uh, where is it? Kent state, you know, Toledo and, and, and, you know, it was like, oh, you know, everybody do it this way.

And then realize, hmm, maybe I got to kind of individualize this a little bit and connect with people. So I think it's a maturity thing, but it's definitely an experience thing too. Yeah. And I think about, I do think that is, I think there's a natural, like, I remember I started managing people, I think I was like 26 and everybody I managed was older than me. And so I could see some of that in like, you know, even though Saban was older than all those people, like there was something like the first time you're the boss where like, you are probably going to be a hard ass. You want to send the message. Like, this is how we do things, all this different stuff. And like, you know, that's clearly now that he is about to be 71 years old, you know, like he has evolved.

He realizes I don't have to be that guy anymore. And again, when you have success, people listen to you more. That's a perk of being successful. You get a little bit more juice, a little more, uh, you know, recognition to it. But I think, again, I think he realized smartly that if I'm just a yeller and I'm just a screamer and I'm just a hard ass, that'll appeal to some of the people in this room, but I'm going to turn off maybe 30 to 40% of the other people in the room. And then how do I get them back on board? How do I get them pulling in the right direction? That's why you that in some ways you think, all right, one size fits all. That's the fair thing to do, but it's actually not fair. You're actually being unfair to a lot of people in that room.

And so I think that's something that people don't always think about, but I think as he grew older and more experienced, he realized like, I have to have multiple approaches and we're going to try to make it a meritocracy, but like, it's not the same thing for every person, because I'm not going to reach everyone that way. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, you know, if we tie it one more time to the business side of the house, that's why coaching, you know, managers, the thing that a manager should do the most of, but does the least of is coaching. And the coaching needs to be individualized to the people on the team because different people get motivated by different things. You know, that's why in sales, like you have a comp plan and you get this massive commissions and all this other stuff, some people are going to be like, yes, absolutely.

Cause I want to make as much money as possible. Other people will be like, yeah, I don't care about that. I want more time back with my family. I want a better work-life balance, whatever that is. And if you don't put together individual coaching plans, uh, you're missing out on a lot of different opportunities to, to really get some great people to do some great things. Cause you're taking that kind of one size fits all approach, which, you know, rarely works for everybody. I mean, it works for a while maybe to get started, but you know, as we evolve, as, uh, as our society evolves, it's pretty evident that everybody wants to be treated pretty special. So you gotta, no, absolutely. And I think one of the smart things that I thought Alabama did when they brought in this one outside group, they did this thing where they had everybody, you know, like in this, these groups identify what they believe to be the primary limiting belief within the organization.

Right. And so it's not like, all right, I'm coming in as the leader. You know, I feel like we're not good in this area and I'm just going to build my whole strategy because I believe that we're bad in this one area versus actually talking to the people on your team. Because like you said, everybody has different things that they believe might be a problem. And so you can't fix the culture until you know what's wrong with the culture. And it can't just be based on you, no matter how good of a leader you are. Like you got to have some people on the ground telling you what's actually happening down there. And so I thought it was really smart that like, let's first identify what we believe to be the primary limiting belief in our organization.

Then the next step is, what is the primary consequence to that limiting belief? And so if we're not trusting each other and sharing ideas, well, then we're not going to be as creative as we need to be or innovative, whatever. And then let's find a way to flip it so that we are taking that limiting belief and now making it a strength. And so I just think that too often I see somebody takes over a business and they're like, I know how to fix it. I'm smart, blah, blah, blah. They do some shift. And then the people on the ground are like, this guy's an idiot. Like, this is not our problem. Like we needed to fix this thing, not that thing. And, you know, just because people think that they're too smart and they, you know, they don't trust or ask people like, what is the actual problem here?

Yeah. I mean, I think I'd go back to, if I, if I was a new leader in any organization, I'd spend the first two to three months doing nothing but listening. You know what I mean? Like interviewing as many people as I could possibly interview customers, employees, and not putting one piece of strategy in place. Now I'd probably wouldn't be hired because of that, because that, you know, when somebody would ask me, what's my 30, 60, 90, it'd be listen, right? Right. And then I'll come to you with a kick-ass plan after, you know, 90 days, but I need about at least 30 or 60 of those days to listen to what these people are saying and figure out where the actual problems are, as opposed to coming in and dictating my method or my methodology or whatever it might be.

Cause I think it's best. And it worked at a previous company of mine. Right. Exactly. Awesome. Well, John, let's wrap it up here. The book is called Leadership Secrets of Nick Saban, how Alabama's coach became the greatest ever. And I know there's some people that will debate that, but where, where do you want people to send, uh, where do you want people to send people? Is it, uh, Amazon? Is it, uh, your LinkedIn profile? Talk to a little bit about, uh, to the audience where they can find out more information about this. Well, if they want to reach out and debate me, I'm glad to do it. Uh, I think, I think he, I think he is the clear cut, but we can, we can have that debate. Like it's the same debate with me with Brady, right?

Like, and feel free to debate with me about Brady, but it's just the facts. The goat is the goat, you know? Um, as a Jets fan, as much as it pains me to admit that Brady is that guy, he is. Um, but yeah, I mean, so the easiest way to buy it is probably Amazon. Um, you know, but whatever, wherever you buy books, Amazon, Barnes and Noble books, a million, um, you know, whatever you prefer independent bookstores. I've got some great ones here in Birmingham. I've pushed people to, um, but whatever you like to buy, you can of course do that. Um, book came out Tuesday, August 9th. Um, and so it's, it's out there. You can buy it and get it in your hands pretty soon. Um, and I think, I think people are really going to enjoy this book.

Yeah. And I agree. I, I read through it. And like I said, I think there's, it's not just, and I, by the way, just as just to, I'm not a college football fan. I'm not, uh, like I, because up in here in new England, we don't really, nobody cares about college sports. Poor Boston college does not get much love up there. Zero. I mean, unless they're literally number one in the AC, like nobody cares. Right. But, but I read through this and, and if you take that quote, you know, bias out of the equation, there are a ton of learning lessons that you can get from somebody like this, who, who's been there, done that and continues to do it consistently. So I, I put this one on the good to great scale, you know, that type of thing of learning how to be a consistently great leader and evolving.

Uh, I think that's the piece that I took out of it the most was the evolution of Nick Saban and how he's continued to kind of be a chameleon, if you will, uh, and managing, you know, the, the new kids coming in and everything else. So I appreciate this, John, and thanks so much for coming on board. I appreciate the conversation. Absolutely. I really enjoyed it. All right, everybody. Well, hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did and got some little nuggets that you might be able to take out and apply in your own lives, businesses, whatever it might be. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, look out there and make somebody smile today, because no matter how bad your day went, you make somebody smile, you know, you had a good day in the world needs a lot more of that these days.

So thank you all for listening. And I will see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts in the industry with over a million downloads. And I can't thank you enough to keep the momentum going. If you could go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review, I would greatly appreciate it. In return, I will answer any question that you have on Instagram. Hit me up there at John M as in Michael Barrows with a video question or a DM and I will get right back to you. I promise. And last but not least, if you're looking for training, I'm adjusting my training approach this year and I'm actually going to be delivering training to the masses.

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