Valerie Fischer: What is NLP and how it can help you sell

Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And we went psychology on this one. I had a great conversation with Valerie Fisher. She's the co-owner of the Conversion Engine, and she's also a certified NLP practitioner. Now you'll hear the context when we kick this thing off. I got introduced to neuro-linguistic programming early in my sales career and was fascinated by it and leveraged it in a lot of ways to make better connections with people. So in this conversation with a true NLP certified practitioner, we dove into what is neuro-linguistic programming, what's it based on, the psychology around it, and how to leverage it throughout the sales process, also in the marketing component of what we do and the writing and copywriting of how we write emails and how we write our marketing materials.

So we got very tactical in ways of simple things that you can do to increase your chances of connecting with as many people as possible with your message. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. What's happening, Make It Happen family. Big shout out to our partners today, Gong, Vidyard, and Chili Piper. Gong's data is more than valuable. It's cornerstone in any organization looking to collect the data that's going to tell them where they can improve and where they need to spend their time making changes. Vidyard makes it easy for people to use videos anywhere. No matter whether you're sending videos in email or on social media, posting them somewhere, or sending them in a DM, Vidyard has got you covered.

Our friends at Chili Piper are so much fun to be around. They make it easy for people to get on your calendar. And every sales rep has got to have this function locked in. It's one of the most important things we can do as a seller. How can I get you on my calendar easily? Chili Piper can make that happen for you. Be sure that you're checking out all these great tools. And now let's pass it over to John to find out who's joining him today. See you soon, everybody. Valerie Fisher, welcome to the podcast. How are you? Thank you so much. I am honored to be here. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for coming. And again, for the listeners, thanks for being on at two o'clock in the morning from Manila.

I did not realize that when I sent up my meeting request link and everything and you chose, I was like, oh, great. And then you'd say 2 a.m. Like, oh, man, I could have been a little bit more flexible. But thank you very much for being up this late to have this conversation. I genuinely appreciate it. It's okay. And for all our listeners out there, this is my 2 a.m. voice. The 2 a.m. voice, right? Have you ever read Chris Voss with Never Split the Difference or listen to his stuff? No. He's like a master negotiator and he talks about like your late night DJ voice. So it's like when you're negotiating, you go down a few tones and you talk real slow. So you got your late night DJ voice on, which is fantastic.

So Valerie, I want to give some context to this conversation. And then I'd love to hear a little bit about your background. And then let's dive into what the main topic of neuro-linguistic programming is. NLP for short. So for everybody out there, I started training. And this is also a background, Valerie, for you. When I started training at Basho, the first training organization I had, they were pretty heavy into NLP. And they were also... I also know Sandler Sales Training, which is one of the more well-known, obviously, ones out there. They're heavy into NLP. And at first, I thought it was really interesting because it was unique and it was different. But then I started to realize that if you went too deep into it, it was kind of crossing the creepy, weird barrier because you were psychoanalyzing everybody.

And you stopped really focusing on them. You were looking for more of the cues and stuff. So I really just dumbed down NLP to say, let's focus on... There's three types of communicators. So make sure you're mixing it up, your forms of communication. And we'll get into all that. What is your kind of definition of it, just to educate the audience? Because I think probably maybe 70% of the audience or 20% to 30% of the audience maybe even knows what NLP is and the rest don't. So could you educate us a little bit on what neuro-linguistic programming is? And then we'll get into how we apply it. Okay. So how I usually describe it, you know, just so it's easier. Neuro means the brain. Linguistic is language.

And programming is the way that you're programmed. You programmed yourself. The world programmed you, et cetera. So let's say, for example, I ask you to describe a beach. So for us here in the Philippines, here in the Philippines, I would describe it to you as having a white sand, you know, with palm trees, with it's hot. And there's probably like people cooking barbecue. So that's how you label it because of our programming. But if I ask a person from, say, Scotland or, say, from the West Coast, they will have a different version. They will have different labels. They will say it's rocky. There's, you know, cliffs around it. It's cold. It's brown. It's gloomy because that's how they're programmed, which means if you are programmed and your brain can be programmed, it can be reprogrammed.

So that's usually how I describe it in a way that, you know, people will understand. And you can use that, that idea, that concept when you sell. So it's for sales and marketing because you know that, you know, people's thoughts, they can relabel. You can also use your words as a salesperson to help people relabel their thoughts and their behavior. See, that's interesting because I haven't thought about, like, again, I'm a super novice in this and my whole thing. I've always been kind of a keep it simple, stupid guy, right? Like to get to the basics of how it can help. And it was, it was an eye opener for me. Look, I always know I communicated slightly differently than most, right? Because I'm from Boston, I'm in your face, I talk really fast.

But I was like, eh, whatever, that's just me. And then when I took neurolinguistic programming, they talked about the three types of communicators, right? The visual, the auditory, the kinesthetic, and how each one of them likes to be communicated with. And they're means of learning as well. So, for instance, I've always said, like, I, for me, it's hard for me to read a book. Like, I get about five to ten pages into a book and I fall asleep. It's, I've tried to not fall asleep. I put myself in uncomfortable positions. I learn more by having conversations with people. I'm a very visual person. I need to see something before, and the details don't matter to me. So, when it clicked where I was like, oh, wait a minute.

That means if I'm communicating my way, just my way without any realization, I potentially could be losing out to two-thirds of my population because they're just not tuned in. So, how did you even get introduced to NLP? Because I see you've had a pretty interesting career, and then all of a sudden you became an NLP practitioner. Why and what was the impetus of that? So, I was in advertising and marketing, and one of the, one of the jobs I got, we partner with a training company. So, during our events, we have trainings. And then I attended this one session where they used NLP. And I'm like, whoa, this technique can actually not only change people's behavior, but also their belief system. Because what's good about NLP is that, you know, we have trainings where you're high on the training for like a day.

And then after that, you forget about it. But because NLP digs really deep into your unconscious, you carry it with you. So, it's a longer, it stays longer with you. So, I've always been curious about how that can happen. And then I had time in 2018, I'm like, I think, you know, we have moments where I don't know where I'm going. I was already one of the youngest executives where I was at the company that I was working at. And I'm like, I don't know where else to go. And I looked at NLP to kind of get that clarity. And then, you know, I quit. I put up another business. I have an e-commerce site. And then when the pandemic happened, I decided, I said, why not combine NLP and digital marketing and advertising and marketing from, you know, where I was before.

And so, that's how it happened. Personally, I also, you know, I like NLP because it helps me understand and deal with my friends better. Even my husband. My husband's a teacher. He's an international school teacher. And he will always say, I'm tired, I'm tired. And I'll tell him, you've said the word tired four times already in the last 30 minutes. Can you say, relabel, can you say, I'm tired one time and then say, I need to rest so that it's more proactive. You have a solution to why you're tired. And even that, you know, simple conversations like that, I'm able to use it. That's fascinating. So, you actually really should read into Chris Voss because he talks a lot about labeling and negotiations because he labels the emotion, which you just did there.

So, he'll say, it sounds like you're, or whatever, and he'll put a label on it. And once you put a label on it, it helps, to your point, reframe the conversation or let the person know that you're hearing them, that you've actually listened to them as well, right? Yes. So, these feelings, these emotions, we're usually not aware of them. They're in our unconscious. And when you label them, you put them in your conscious, and it's more cognitive. So, the thinking is more logical. And when it's more logical, you can do something about it. Again, it becomes more proactive. It's not something like, I don't know what I'm feeling. When you know what you're feeling, when you know you're tired, then you know what you should do.

Fascinating. So, the tactical elements of this, and actually, I want to get into how do you reprogram, right? Because that, what you said, as far as, yeah, training, it's an event, and everybody leaves. And, you know, I think the stats are 84% of what you learned. You know, you forget about it in however many days. But it's also very relevant to a sales call in the sense that I meet with you. I'm trying to sell you or understand your needs. You meet with 5 other vendors just like me. And so, you know, you probably forgot 90% of what we talked about in that conversation. So, how do you actually train NLP for people to recognize in themselves and label themselves, but then also train them how to leverage that in a conversation that isn't manipulative?

Because I think the fine line that I have with a lot of this stuff, as far as the psychology components is, it's great when you can influence and you can open people's eyes up to something they might not have been paying attention to, but it's awful when you use it for manipulation. And so, help me understand that a little bit. Say, for example, when you're, you know, you have a client, and then your client will say, you know what, somebody told me it's expensive. Somebody told me it's expensive. You are managing objections. As an NLP practitioner, or, you know, when a salesperson learns NLP, he or she will know about the metamodels, the metamodels, it's a series of questions. Because as we go through life, we are programmed.

So, we delete, generalize, and distort our thoughts because of the programs. So, somebody will say, somebody told me it's expensive. And then you can ask, labeling, who's that somebody? Is that somebody you can trust? Is that somebody you really believe in? Because that was deleted. Who's that somebody? You know, it's probably just something he heard somewhere. And then you can also ask, what is expensive? Yeah. What is expensive to you? That has been probably distorted. Because the expensive to them is, you know, something that they don't find valuable. Which means, as a seller, you have to put more value into what you're offering. Because the metamodels will now tell you, it's not the expense.

It's the trust. Because that, you know, your client trusts somebody else. And also, the value of the product. So, that's, you know, that's one thing when you're trained in NLP. And I don't think that, at least in the particular situation, it's manipulative. It is really trying to understand. Because marketing and sales is really trying to understand what your client's pain points are. What are the possibilities that they see for themselves? And when you ask them questions like that, you really are able to, you know, squeeze it out of them. It's usually seven, a series of, you know, seven questions. It depends on the depth of what you're trying to get from your client. Okay. So, let's talk two components of it that I was taught.

One is in your messaging, and I think this is relevant to marketing and sales, where you want to mix up the words that you use, right? You want to use actually both, all three, visual, auditory, and kinesthetic words. And so, what was funny is when I was training, so at Basho, where I got trained on this, when we would come up with quote-unquote elevator pitches, what the training was, we would try to get the reps to integrate one visual, one auditory, and one kinesthetic word in to that sentence because you were trying to connect with as many people as possible, right? So, when you gave it, you didn't know who the other person was, you couldn't kind of analyze them and get a feel, so you wanted to be, all right, I'm making sure I'm touching all three.

But what happened was it was a little, it ended up getting a little strange because the reps were forcing words that just didn't sound normal, right? So, they were using words like massage and sparkle and stuff like that, and I'm like, come on, this has turned into a joke, right? So, what's the line of getting your message across, you know, with being succinct, being direct, and adding NLP to wake a few people up, and does it really matter that much? And just one more piece of context on that, what it did for me at a very baseline level was force me to be more creative with my words. So, I think that was a massive benefit where I stopped looking at just the generic words that most other people were using and it started to, no, I actually like these words, drive, connect, tackle, you know, all these different ones.

But there was an absurdity to it after a while where reps were just getting a joke. So, where's that line of value versus roll your eyes at this because I can figure out what you're trying to do? To me, actually, to me, you don't sell to everyone. So, the advice that you should be selling to all visual, auditory, kinesthetic, it's a little bit misleading. So, you can actually sell to the visual people, not just by words. Words just comprise, in the Merabian's theory of communication, only 7%. So, there's 38% tonality and 55% visuality. So, when you sell and you realize that your client is visual, you sell using pamphlets, for example. You don't have to really actually change your words. You just have to make sure that you have visual elements.

You're dressed well, you're made up, you know, you're wearing high heels because you look taller. Anything that's visual that will appeal to them. And then, if they're auditory, for example, again, you still don't have to change your words. But what do you have to do? You just have to make your voice, you know, if it's pitchy, your client, there's also what we call mirroring. This will work if your client is auditory. So, you can put, you know, adjust the pitch. Adjust the pitch to your clients. And then, when they're kinesthetic. So, physiology. You don't have to change your words. But you can also give them a tap on the back. You can give a stronger handshake. Or you can tell them, you know what?

Let's take a walk. And I will explain to you what this means. Because walking is their form. That's how they communicate. Movement. Use your hands. Hands are true spellers. So, it's not only, you know, it's not just the words. There was this one time, two years ago, before the pandemic. Because I told you, we have an e-commerce site. And we, every once in a while, especially during Christmas, there's trade fairs and festivals. So, we would sell physically. And from the, you know, peripheral vision, I saw this lady. And I said, don't sell to everyone. And I knew she was my client. So, I followed her. I followed her. And then, this Christmas song started to play. All I want for Christmas is you.

And she started dancing. I mirrored her dancing. From like, you know, 10 meters across the room. I mirrored her dancing. She was on the phone. We, you know, we didn't know each other. She was on the phone. When she looked up, I saw her. And she said to me, so for all of our viewers, she said, just using the hands. I see you. Your poncho is mine. No words. From across the room. Followed her, followed her, mirrored her dancing. She went to our booth. She was still on the phone. I gave her the receipt. She paid. And then, when she got the item, she said, I didn't realize this was expensive. I said, you didn't ask. So, even if I didn't use words, that was $130 for a poncho. No words. But because I knew she was kinesthetic, she was dancing.

I was able to sell to her that way. And so, is there something to that from a mirroring standpoint? And again, I think this goes to the leverage but not ridiculous bucket, which is the idea of mirroring. So, you and I are here, right? So, I'm now looking at you on this screen. And you are leaned forward, right? So, I am leaned forward. Is there, from a psychology standpoint, a point where if you mirror enough in the right way, you can actually start to influence their body language? So, let's use the kinesthetic, again, the person that, you know, touch and feel, and they learn by that. If in the beginning of a meeting, I'm there sitting back with their arms crossed like this. So, I sit back with my arms crossed like this.

And if they grab, you know, if they use their hand and they touch their face, then at some point, I'll touch my face. And I've been told, and I haven't paid attention to it this much because, again, I'm just more of the surface level. I've been told that if you do that the right way and not make it ridiculously obvious, that eventually you can start to dictate their body language in the sense that eventually, for instance, I'll lean forward in the conversation. And it'll almost psychologically, whether you know what's happening or not, you're going to lean forward in too because now we're in sync. Is that really how it works? Yes. I did that in one of my trainings. I had a broker who was like that, lean back, didn't seem interested.

I leaned back because I was, you know, looking at them, even on a Zoom call. So, I particularly, because I knew he was a broker and he can get, you know, more trainings from me. And I really wanted to build rapport with him. I leaned back. I mirrored him. And then also eye contact. Eye contact. So, you look directly at the camera and then called his name so that he knows, so that he knows. And then I lean forward. That's the time when you can lead. So, you mirror first and then you lead. But you have to make sure that you have created rapport because it's also probable that that person is not kinesthetic. Right. So, I called him so I know if, you know, if he sounds auditory, you can also tell by the voice.

I knew he wasn't visual because he wasn't, you know, he was just wearing a shirt and it was supposed to be a more formal event, etc. So, my guess was he was auditory and kinesthetic. And so, that's how I led him. So, from mirroring, if it wasn't enough, I called him and then I led him. And I think, again, you know, what I've realized is you can pick up on the words that they use. For instance, a visual will say something like, could you show that to me again? Whereas an auditory would say, could you explain that to me one more time? And a kinesthetic will be, you know, could you walk me through that, please? Right. So, if they say different phrases that, and then the other part is when you ask them the question, where do their eyes look?

Visuals tend to look up. Auditories tend to look at the side. Kinesthetics tend to look down. Okay. That's all accurate. I learned that the right way? Yes. Yes. And it's only remembering and creation. So, left is remembering and then right is creation. So, what do you think about this? If the visual is creating something, it's up right. Yeah. When they're accessing a memory, they will look left up. Okay. Eye accessing cues. So, that's also, which is why it's really for me, understanding who they are, calibrating the seller's actions. And attitude towards that person and adjusting, personalization, personalize your communication according to how that person is. Say, for example, again, visual will ask you for flyers.

When a kinesthetic person, you're selling to a kinesthetic person and you're already in the cost stage, you have to write it, write it down. Like, show him that you're writing it because that's how we will appreciate. If it's auditory while you are computing, say the words out loud. So, you say 500 million times 30%. You say it like that. If it's visual, it's just writing, you know. It's like that. I mean, that's why, like, in my trainings, I'll do, at a certain point, I'll always say, hey, you might want to write this down. This isn't in your manual. And I don't do that because I care whether you write it down or not. I do it because the kinesthetics in the room will probably pick up their pen and start writing if I tell them to do it.

And that's definitely something I learned about, like, sales, demos, presentations, and training, absolutely, that, you know, the slide deck, for instance, that's for the visuals. They need to see it. And if they don't see it, they're not going to be, they're not going to know what to do with themselves. Whereas the auditory, you're speaking to them, right? And then the kinesthetic is you got to get them to do something. So, when I do a demo with somebody, if I can, the bash that used to do this, we never had a demo because we were professional services. But what we would say is we would use our website as to walk people through things. So, we would say this, hey, Valerie, you know what? Instead of me just kind of talking through this, why don't you do this?

Could you go to www.basho.com and then click on this and go there? And you see that upside down funnel right there? We'll scroll over one. And what it would do is it would, you know, macro out. And then I'd talk to it. And I'd be like, all right, now go to here and do that. And you can also do that with demos, obviously, if there's ever a chance you can give somebody the reins to drive the demo themselves, that's one of the most effective ways you can get people engaged. What's up, everybody? I know you're enjoying this conversation. John does a great job with genuine curiosity on these episodes. And our guests consistently bring the heat. We want to take a moment here and let you know that you've got an opportunity.

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Join us today and get the help you need to become the seller that you deserve to be. That URL, one more time, is joinjbsales.com. Let's get back to the show with JB and our guest for this week. How much do you put into it, though, as far as... And where would you suggest sales professionals start learning about this? Because there's so much that a sales professional has to start... You know, when they first start in sales, it's, I don't even know what I don't know right now. I got to figure out my product, my features, and then I got to learn my sales skills here. And I always felt like NLP was one of those things that was like, yeah, sure, that sounds cool. But I got too many things going on inside my head.

And also, if I'm worried about psychoanalyzing you on this call and figuring out what type of communicator you are, I'm not really paying attention to your answers, to the questions that I want to ask you, right? So I'm not experienced enough. So when do you think it's important for a sales professional to be introduced to NLP and start taking it seriously? Because of where we are right now, and sellers have to learn how to sell online digitally, I would say copywriting. Copywriting? Yes, I would say copywriting. Because there's so many things, or content marketing even, there's so many things that can be applied. NLP techniques that can be applied to copywriting for sellers. Because when you do that, it creates rapport as well, because you can mirror, you can also mirror using copywriting, using user-generated content.

When you use their words back at them, it's an echo technique. So doing your research, finding out what people like, checking the comment section, asking people what they actually think, and creating content around that, that's echo technique. That's mirroring their words. And when they see that, they will feel special because they will think that you're reading their minds, when actually, it's just their words back at them. Okay. That's one. I think copyright, by the way, just as a side note, I think almost every sales professional should take a copywriting course. Because now, to your point, in this new digital world, words really do matter. And you need to be so selective with the word choice to try to stand out from all this noise.

Because the noise is just deafening. And I think that's probably my personal biggest takeaway from NLP was, like I said earlier, it made me more creative with my vocabulary. And a quick tip, I don't know if you read this book, but there's a book called Selling with NLP, The Unfair Advantage. Have you read that one? No. So it's cool. It's all about this and how it applies to sales. And one of the things was, it had a whole page of visual words, a whole page of auditory words, and a whole page of kinesthetic words. And what I ended up doing was, I took those pages and I highlighted all the words that I liked, that weren't cheesy to me, and I started finding places to replace. So for instance, instead of increasing productivity, which is a very marketing, you know, we increase, but no, we drive productivity.

Drive is a very kinesthetic word to use, right? Instead of, you know, you know, so I just started, like, we thrive, we tackled our biggest challenges, those type of things. And if nothing else, whether the NLP component of it really did resonate with the audience and, you know, whatever, it just made me be more creative, which I think is a great by-product of studying this. Yes. You can also study reframe. Framing. Framing in, in copywriting. There is what you call the positive bias and the loss aversion. Positive bias is you will increase your sales by 40%. And loss aversion is you're going to lose 40% sales. Yep. That's also NLP. That's framing. Even the, in the way that you write your words, again, you know, when it's 400,000, four zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, it sounds bigger than 40K.

Okay. So many, you know, many things that you can, you can apply NLP techniques that you can apply the agreement frame. Agreement frame. I use this for LinkedIn or even, you know, in other, in other platforms, but specifically for LinkedIn agreement frame is so that you're honoring, you are respecting the other person's opinion. So you say yes. And then you say, and you don't say, but it's yes. And you will now, so from the end, then you will say what your opinion is, but you're not negating the other person's opinions and thoughts. Because once you do that, there will be resistance. I think I learned that a very, I don't say early age, earlier in my career, the word, but no matter what you say before, before the word, but it doesn't matter.

Cause the only thing they listen to is what you say after that word. I've done this before where, you know, my least favorite thing to do in business is obviously fire anybody. It's, it's the hardest part. I don't care who you are. It's the hardest part. And I'd be like, look, you know, unfortunately today, Valerie, you know, we're going to have to let you go, but you know, you're a great asset and dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, those types of things, or I'm sorry, flip it around. Hey, I love, you know, I absolutely love everything you're doing here, but you know, unfortunately I think this and go from there, no matter how many accolades you gave the person beforehand, none of it matters because as soon as you say that word, but it's all erased basically.

So that's, and that is psychologically true. Correct. Yes. Yes. Also, even in webinars, because we do a lot of virtual presentations, you can also apply NLP. This is a trick, not a trick, a tip. Yeah, there you go. That I use. So again, relabel. So a tip that I use. So you have to know who you're talking to. Even before I turn the zoom on, like accept them in a meeting, for example, I already have music playing, but the music will depend on, who I'm talking to. So I'm assuming if this person is my age, 40. So for example, in their forties, they will appreciate 80s music. So I'm already priming them, even before we start the conversation, because they're hearing music that they like, that's from their childhood or from their teenage years.

So that's called anchoring. It's, it's priming them, priming your customer, anchoring on something that they like. So, you know, it's, it's simple, simple, but again, requires you, seller, to know who your market is. Yeah. How much does this have to do with the personality profiles, like disc or Myers-Briggs or any of those? Does it have any connection with that at all? Um, I don't, personally, I don't know mine. I don't know mine. I work based on what I see because the personality can change. Sure. Again, because of our program. So you are probably a different personality trait when, a personality type when you're in college versus when you're in, um, as a young executive versus now. So it's more of not labeling them, not putting a label on them based on their personality.

Types, but on how I see them and how I understand them on the time, at the time that I meet them. Gotcha. Okay. What are some other applications of NLP, uh, that are unique in, in the sense that, you know, I know I understand writing. We want to write copy that tries to connect with as many people as possible. I think, you know, having, making sure that when you're presenting, you, you're hitting all three. Quick example, because so many people are on zoom these days and most of our meetings are this way. A lot of people have virtual backgrounds. So you can't make the connection with what's in their background. Like you used to be able to go on site. So what I've done is I flipped that over and I put things in my background that you can relate to.

Now, ideally I'd love to be able to change that to the person that I'm meeting with. But in general, I put a bunch of things in here, sports, family, Salesforce, funny books, you know, those types of things. And what I'm trying to do is get you to, you know, pay attention to one of those things, make a connection. And there's a relationship there. So, or rapport there. So are there other ways that we can apply that reframing again is another one, but what other ways that can we apply NLP to our lives to, to help open people up a little bit more? I thought of marketing because that's how I'm, that's how I'm wired. The meta model again, when you're a new business owner and you're still trying to build your brand, because when you're starting, you receive a lot of advice, you receive a lot of input, and sometimes you don't really know what's yours and what's not.

So what meta model question, what the meta model questions do is they try to understand you as you are. So, you know, we, we deep down, we ask you, okay, what are your values? So values is a station under the meta model. Then you will ask, why do you want to achieve this? Why are you starting this business? And they will say, you know, I want to support my family. Why is that important to you? Supporting my family because we've always been poor. Okay. So why is important? Why is it important for you not to be poor anymore? And then they will say, because, you know, when we were young, we would go around and I will have no place. And then eventually you will realize it's not family. It's actually stability.

So when you find that it's about stability, then you can build the person's brand, your brand as a seller around stability. So even the colors, what are the colors that are associated with stability? You can't, not yellow, it's more cheerful. And even your logo, you can't do cursive because that's not stability. You try to understand even from the personal brand. So even before you go out there and sell, because NLP, the communication part of it is also internal. So it's like understanding yourself also before you even, before you even go out into the world, have your own business, be in a relationship because probably your metaprograms, your programs are also making you go with the same type of person because you thought that you value this.

You thought that you value beauty, but you really don't. It's something else. It's probably significance because when you're a beautiful person, you feel more significant. It's different. So the meta questions, the meta model will identify that. See, now I understand a lot better the Sandler sales training because almost everything they do is based off of NLP. It sounds like because they do reverse questioning. So for instance, when somebody asks you a question, you reframe it, you ask it back to them basically so that they can then, and then they're, they talk about the pain funnel, the first layer of pain, second layer of pain, third layer of pain. First layer layer is usually something very basic.

Oh, you know, all right. So I'll ask you, why do you want training? And all we need to hit our numbers, you know, we're missing our quota. It's like, okay, well, why is that important? Well, because, you know, we got this funding coming up round coming up. And if we're not at this level, then we won't get the evaluation. Okay. Well, what does that mean to you personally? Well, if I don't, then it's going to, so it digs down to that personal level that you can then grab onto and build back up from, right? And is that pretty much the concept is that you want to get down to that core belief, that label, whatever it is. And so unpack it to the core element and then build up on it using that as the linchpin for the conversation to lean into.

You're exactly correct. When you find your values, you find your purpose, you find your why. So you know what that is. Yep. You can't change that. The how, the who, the where, the when, it can, it can change. Yep. It can change, but your why is your core. And like what Simon Sinek says, when you find your why, your tribe will find you. It's not a hard sell because I come from my core. I come from value. I come from my own values. And people, people will see that and they will resonate with your message, with your values, with your why, and then they will come to you. I always say, I don't really sell. I let my branding sell for me. I let my branding sell for me because that is strong. The values are strong.

Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to, you know, you're not for everybody, right? You know, none of us are for everybody, but we are for the right people. And so be that person that you want to attract. And values go a long way with that. Because I always say, if you know, if you and I have similar core values, then we can debate about certain things, but we'll usually walk away agreeing on, on some fundamental thing. Whereas if we don't have the same core values, we're just going to argue. And, and you're not going to change my mind and I won't change yours. But if I can understand where your values comes from and what your values are, I might be able to find a common ground with you on at least maybe one or two of them, which I think is, is better than nothing.

So. And we will find sometimes that at the end of the day, we all, you know, we all want the same things. It's just in different forms. It's just in different ways to get it. Well, and also different priorities too. You know what I mean? Like family might be extremely important to somebody, whereas it might not be important to somebody else. And it's also to your point of stages of life too. In my twenties, I was a lot different than I am now. So I think it evolves. Your core, I don't think your core values should change all that much. I think they, you know, you need to work on reprioritizing every once in a while, but I think your core values should ultimately be your core values. But I think it's important to reassess them on a relatively consistent basis to make sure you're living them and also document them so that you are reminded of them.

And I think that dictates, we call it the decision stack. So once you have your why, your values and your vision and priorities, that's your decision stack. So now every decision you make, you marry it up to those why values and vision. And if it aligns with it, fantastic. Let's do it. If it doesn't, you might want to think about another option. Yes. And in digital marketing, that also becomes your content. Oh, absolutely. Content pillars. Yeah. You talk about like me, I talk about courage. I talk about learning. I talk about excellence. That's my, those are my content pillars. Awesome. Well, and this was a real interesting conversation and in the interest of time, is there anything else that we missed that, that we should have talked about as it relates to NLP?

There's a lot to talk about. I know it goes super deep. It's super deep. For that kind of mid-level understanding of it. Is there any other highlights that, that would be worth following up and learning more about? You can use NLP in different kinds of selling. People will say, you know, it's only for face to face because you can see them and then you can mirror them. And then, you know, all of these high access cues, but you can take NLP in whatever type of selling that you do, whether it's digital. In digital, I use it for copywriting. Yep. I use it for my website. I use it for when I create authority. I use it for many things on the digital space. I also use it, like I said, in webinars and presentations, sales presentations, music, when they're auditory, hand movements, when they're kinesthetic, and also face to face, even on presentations.

When you sell on the stage, you have, you do the power stance. The power stance is like the, you know, the Superman, Superman pose so that you feel more confident. Yeah. So it's, it's applicable in many, many platforms in many, many stages. So if you're interested, you really should look up neuro-linguistic programming. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, the book suggestion I have for the audience, and I'd love to hear some of yours is again, it's called selling with NLP, the unfair advantage. Because if you can figure out the whole concept there is, if I can figure out what type of communicator you are and adjust towards you, you're going to feel more comfortable with me than somebody else who is not paying attention to that.

So is there other, other resources that you would point to or books that you would suggest the audience take a look at if they are interested in the topic? Well, we have an NLP Master Summit. I'm speaking at the NLP Master Summit soon. I'm also speaking at the NLP Global Summit. It's sometime in September. I can, you know, I can comment on the podcast episode on the dates because it's still to be announced. What I do though, because I'm already a certified practitioner, is I combine it with other books and other resources. So like I said, you know, Start With Why by Simon Sinek, because it's the values. So the values and the metamodel, kind of the same. Influence, the book Influence. I love that one.

And also, yes, the war of art. I don't know if it's here, but it's also about having the courage to accept who you are and show people what that is. So it's like, you know, a combination of different things. Because like you said, if it's just NLP, you will hold on to it like it's your last chance to sell. So, combine it, experiment and explore with other, you know, with other types of psychology or other types of communication. I think that's one of the things I like a lot about it is to me in sales. You know, I'm not a big reader of books, especially sales books, because I think they're mostly fluff, you know, with a couple of things in there. But the psychology books, those are the ones I'm like influenced by Robert Cialdini and NLP stuff.

Those are the ones I'm interested in because what I realized is, you know, sales techniques, those come and go. Okay. Like, but, but what doesn't change is human behavior and how and why we make decisions and how we connect with people. Like those are fundamentals that are just in our DNA. And if you can start to analyze that and look at it from a slightly different perspective and leverage it to get influence, not manipulation, then you are giving yourself a pretty significant leg up whether the prospect knows it or not, whether the audience knows it or not, they're going to feel more connected to you than the other person that's not paying attention to that. So in a world of today where every little thing matters and we're looking for even the slightest advantage, I think NLP is something if, if, if you're a sales rep out there listening to this right now and you think you're top of your game and you're pretty good, but you've never heard of NLP, this is something to tackle.

Even if you're a, but if I, I also think if you're a younger sales professional, this will give you that, you know, don't go too deep into it. Don't get too psychoanalytical about this, but understand it and start to learn and integrate it into your process. And I think it'll, it'll, you might not know the direct impact, but it'll have an impact whether you know it or not. Right. Yes. And it's also not in sales. It can also apply in your personal life. So you get ROI immediately. Absolutely. Right. Exactly. Well, I think that's what I love about sales. I think almost everything in sales can be applied to your personal life, right? Negotiations and everything else. So it's, I always say that sales is more of a mentality than it is a job, right?

If, if, cause everybody's in sales, I don't, you know, if you're interviewed for a job, you're selling yourself. If you're trying to get a promotion, you're selling ideas internally, right? Regardless. And so once you start looking at it that way, you can start to have some fun with it and practice everywhere you go. So. Yes. Sales is also energy. Totally. Oh, that's a whole nother conversation. Whole nother conversation about energy management and everything else. Perfect. Cool. Well, Valerie, where can, where, where can people find out more about what you're doing and, and what you're working on these days? Yes. So please connect with me on LinkedIn, Valerie Fisher on LinkedIn. I have also a website, a newly renovated, reconstructed website.

It's Valerie, V-A-L-E-R-I-E-P, Fisher, F-I-S-C-H-E-R.net. Perfect. Awesome. Well, hopefully everybody goes, checks that out. And I'd, I'd be interested to maybe chat with you after the NLP summit coming up, just to see what that was all about and what you learned there. But thanks so much for coming on Valerie. And thank you. Thanks again for being up at two o'clock in the morning for this one. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to listening to the podcast and sharing it with my network. Thank you so much. Perfect. Thank you. And everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did and got something out of this that'll make you think a little differently and maybe explore NLP to add that tool to the tool belt there for you.

It does make a difference. I was an early experimenter with it. And now I I'm learning more and more of the impact that it can have on people and, and your results. So thank you all for listening. And like I always say, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad your day is going, or you think it's going, if you go out there and make somebody smile today, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you very much for listening and I will see you on the other side. Thank you so much for your time today and listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests.

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