Lori Richardson: Betting on Yourself When It Matters Most

Sales is an admirable profession, and if you're in a poor economic status, it's a way you can raise yourself out, and I've seen multiple people do it. I'm sure you have too. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between. The guest who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us, and today's guest is my good friend Lori Richardson, who is one of my favorite people out there, no question about it. She is the founder and sales strategist for Score More Sales, a sales training organization that actually does assessments on your sales org and then prescribes real training as opposed to just throwing training on top, which I think is a brilliant idea, and I should probably do more of it.

She's also an author, a speaker, and the host of the podcast, Conversations with Women in Sales, and she is one of the biggest and best proponents of women in sales, but also just sales in general. And the reason I wanted to have her on the podcast is because, first of all, I didn't realize that I hadn't had her on the podcast, so shame on me. But we've had so many conversations in the past that I just unfortunately assumed that she had been on the podcast. But her story of resilience is so incredible that I just thought more people needed to hear it. I mean, she grew up in Seattle, didn't have a lot going for her early age. You know, her grandmother, Meanie, who was a fine, you know, sold fine apparels and kind of was the rock in her life and really showed her what strong female independence and direction was way back in the day, right?

And how she kind of got into high school and she didn't like it, so she bailed and got her GED and then moved into her associate's degree with early childhood, but then became a mom at 18 or 19 and unfortunately was in a very abusive relationship and found her way out of it. But she bet on herself, so she took her son, who was huge into hockey, and she got into sales, full 100% commission. I mean, you want to bet on yourself, have no job, have a kid, get out of a relationship that is abusive and get into a 100% commission job. I mean, I don't know if I have that kind of grit in me to be able to do that, but she did, and she has made an incredible career ever since. And not only leading the way in some of the huge deals that she's closed for, some of the organizations that she's worked for, but also championing sales for women, but also for everybody just to all level up.

I look to her for advice myself, as far as building businesses, as far as sales and structure and all that fun stuff. I look to her constantly for this. And if you want to see us in action, you can actually Google Jay Barrows, we need to talk. And this was our conversation about the bro culture in sales and how it needs to change. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. And I encourage you to share this episode with other people who might be struggling and need some motivation to keep going. So let's make it happen. Lori Richardson, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend, my dear friend, Lori Richardson. How are you? Oh, so great to see you, John. I miss you being in Arizona now, but doing really well.

Thank you. That's great to hear. And we were just talking before this. I can't believe you haven't been on this podcast. I think it's really genuinely because we've had so many conversations that I just assumed one of them was on the podcast. So shame on me for not getting you on here earlier. But I'm really excited to kind of dive into this and help share your story and some of the stuff that you're both seeing out there in sales right now. Yeah, it's great to be here. Yeah. So for those, and by the way, we'll get into this. But, you know, for those of you listening, you know, there was a very powerful thing that Lori and I did with Trish Bertuzzi. Casey Jones. Please thank you, Casey, for called We Need to Talk.

And so I encourage everybody to go on Google and type in We Need to Talk, Jay Barrow's blog. And you will see a very powerful conversation we had based on a very big asshole that we all know, Grant Cardone. And everybody knows I hate him. And I still think we need to do a follow-up to that because I think we still need to talk. And unfortunately, it's evergreen content. I mean, you could listen to it and you wouldn't know that we did it years ago, which is sad. And I think it was you I talked to. I was like, hey, you know, we still need to talk. I'm like, have we made any progress? And you were like, eh, not a lot. So, but we'll get into that. But Lori, I think one of the main reasons I wanted to get you on here formally is to tell your story a little bit.

Because I think you have such a unique story of ups and downs and how you got into sales and why you got into sales that shows a lot of resilience, a lot of agility. And also, you know, basically in a man's world of the 80s, 90s of sales, you know, you carve in your path. And I think it's inspirational for a lot of reasons, not just women out there who are wondering if this is really the profession for them, if they can make it and all that stuff. But also for just anybody looking who goes through struggles, who doesn't think that they can make it or that they're stuck in whatever position they're in. And so that's really why I wanted to have this conversation with you. But then also talk to you about, you know, like we were saying before we got on here, we're a little bit of the old guard here.

You know, people are starting to call me the, you know, godfather. You know, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, godfather. I'm like, if you're talking like, you know, like godfather, godfather, one, two and three. No, but if you're talking like Mitch, when it comes to, you know, the old school movie like that godfather. All right, I'll take that one. But don't put me in the old school godfather thing. So I think there's a lot of insights. And I think both of you and I try to keep reinventing ourselves or at least evolving here to share what we're learning with the younger generation to help them move up a spot. So we'll talk about that, too. Yeah, absolutely. Sounds good. Perfect. So even though we connected in Boston, you grew up in Seattle.

Yes. And I want to start with your, was it Mimi, your grandma? Yeah. Yeah. So you went, so talk to me about that, because that was like your first retail experience, right? You were the youngest of five kids. Yeah. And this gave you a little bit of an escape. So could you start there? Because I think I always love to hear where people's entrepreneurship comes from, where their sales kind of DNA is formed. Yeah. Working for my grandmother was my saving grace because my mom had migraine headaches when I grew up. And she was on heavy narcotics. I mean, my dad was a pharmacist, so it worked out really well. Yeah. Worked out really well for that. And so she did, I mean, she, I'm not faulting them.

They did the best they could with what they had. But I had, you know, I had less direction of being the youngest of five. They were kind of like, oh my gosh, you know, we're done. Let's focus on your own kid. Yeah, exactly. And so I worked for my grandmother from the time I was, I don't know, eight or nine. I was in her dress shop. She had a fine women's apparel store, which was kind of funny because it was in an area of Seattle called Lake City, which was not, you know, high. It was not high end, but she had a high end place. She ended up, you know, she had radio commercials. She had fashion shows at the swankiest restaurant in downtown Seattle. And, you know, she was, she was a high end kind of gal.

So I, I learned a lot from her because she didn't discount other than once a year. And she, you know, she did word of mouth. She did all these important things that I didn't understand until later on. And I didn't even know she was a role model until later. But she stood up to the men who she had to buy the merchandise from. And they would tell her she's crazy. She's too old. And she would tell them, go to hell, you know, and she would say, my customers won't wear that. You know, the, the salesmen would come in from New York and LA and she'd say, no, they, they won't wear that, that style. And then later on, when we'd go back to the market week, they'd go, oh, Mrs. Hall, you were right. You know, it was a fad.

And, you know, so I learned, she was like the first woman I ever saw really stand up to, to the system, you know. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB Sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGVT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done.

And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to JBarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code PODCAST at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. Where'd she get her chops? Like, where did that come from? I mean, usually I ask your origin story, but now I'm kind of curious about your mom's origin story. Like, where did she get those, where did she get that confidence to do that? Because back then, that must have stood out like a sore thumb. Yeah. Well, it was tough on my mom because my grandma got divorced very early and that was very unfashionable in my mom's generation. You know, they had a name for people like that. And my grandmother, she was a buyer in a, somehow she got a job as a buyer in a store in Portland, Oregon, in women's apparel.

So she used to take the train to LA, you know, and she, I don't know, she just developed. We never had that conversation, unfortunately. That's, it's always interesting, right? Because I think you said that you didn't know that was kind of your, your mentor and you didn't know what you were learning. It's the same thing with my parents. Like, I didn't realize I was an entrepreneur, like, but my, both my parents, they never called it entrepreneurship back then. But my mom left, you know, when I was born, I was nine years older than my sister. My mom had a job at Wang Laboratories and like high level job. And she quit to take care of me so that, because she wanted me to have the same experience, but she didn't quit just to take care of me.

She started her own consultancy out of the house. When I came home, I walked into the living room. On the right-hand side was my mom's office. On the left-hand side was the TV. And my dad, FAA consultant, he worked out of his office in, you know, in the top of the second floor. Smoking three packs of reds a day, just hammering through top secret shit. And to me, that was normal. You know what I mean? Like, my, both my parents worked out of the house. I could go and knock on the doors. And that entrepreneurial, like, spirit, if you will, didn't hit me until later on when I got into corporate. And I was like, ew, like, I don't know why I don't like this, but fuck, I don't like this at all. Who's this jerk in the corner office that wants to fire everybody?

Yeah, exactly. So were you paying attention to, like, those fashion shows, like, the pitches and, like, how she was presenting things? Like, were you consciously or subconsciously recognizing that? I used to read Women's Wear Daily when I was, like, nine, ten years old. And just saw the merchandising is part of selling, you know, how you display things. This was visual. And I'm very visual, which is interesting. And so from that aspect, for sure. But she definitely, she would have women come in and they'd say, I like this pantsuit, but it's in a size 12 and I'm a 10. And she'd go, oh, honey, they run small. Just try it on. And so whether they did or didn't, I'm not sure. I don't think she lied.

But she, you know, her point was just put it on and then we'll look at it. So I grew up with lots of that in my head. Love it. So then in high school, you do, high school wasn't for you, right? Did you drop out? Like, why? What was that for you? Because you got your GED, but high school you said wasn't for you. Yeah, I was fine with middle school and I used to walk to my grandmother's store after school. But in high school, it just, it just seemed so stupid. People were either getting high and drinking and they were like the cool kids, the jocks, you know. I just didn't, I don't know what it was about it. But I went for a year and then someone told me that you, they, it wasn't like, hey, you should drop out.

It was more like you can take a test and, and you don't have to go to high school anymore. And I was like, what is this test? It's a magic test. And, and so I found out about it. I didn't study for it. I just walked in and I passed. And I thought, what, what the heck was I supposed to do? Obviously looking back, you know, I didn't have any adults giving me any good advice. I didn't have anyone saying, hey, you're going to miss this, that, and the other thing. What are you going to do next? But what I did was I, I went to the, the local community college and I got into early childhood education. I had my degree, my two-year degree when everybody was graduating from high school. So that would have been a great plan.

And then I could have gone on to college. But of course I got pregnant, I got married and I ended up marrying somebody who was physically abusive. And, and we left for our lives. Yeah. That was around like night. You said you were 19 as a single mom. Yeah. Yeah. I was 19. Imagine being 19 years old and they have this little baby and it, all of a sudden it was like, wow, this isn't really what I plan. I plan to go to college, plan to, to get things done. But, um, but I ended up being a teacher, which is one of the things I wanted to do. Unfortunately, it didn't pay and, and working with kids, especially young kids. It's a, it was a minimum wage job and I could have made more flipping burgers somewhere.

Probably. Unfortunately, not much has changed in that regard. Um, but so then was sales a conscious, again, a conscious, like I can't make an, was that, well, was there a kind of an inflection point for you where you were like, okay, I know I can't support my family, you know, my daughter, my kid, my son. Um, and so I have to find something else or was it more of like a gradual and an opportunistic scenario? It's interesting. I'd like to say that I was well thought out, but what I wanted, I wanted to do, I wanted to be paid what male counterparts made. So that was, my goal was to make more money. I didn't know the sales route. So I took a non-traditional program for women and it was like an apprenticeship program kind of, and we did all these, you know, uh, blue collar jobs.

You know, I poured cement, uh, we did scaffolding. I mean, I want to make more money. I wanted some good pay. And then the guy came in and talked about technology and I was like, Ooh, this is really cool. And somehow something in my head said, maybe I could sell that because that was a time when I was in Seattle. This is where Microsoft was founded. Bill Gates said, we're going to put a computer on every desk. And I thought I can sell that I could sell those. And somehow I had that confidence, which a lot of people don't seem to have. And, and most people don't intentionally go into sales. And I just plastered my resume all over Seattle and went to, I went to a computer show. I remember, and, you know, mind you, this was the early 1980s and, and I found a company that gave me a chance.

And, and the guy that interviewed me, one of the salesmen, he was a top salesman and he worked with the, at the time it was a big eight accounting firms. And, and he was a former Cadillac salesman. Nice. Yeah. And, and he said, his name was Dale Broman. I'll never forget. And he just kept saying, but do you like to sell? But do you like to sell? And I go, yeah, yeah, I think I do. And I didn't really know it, but I had that chip on my shoulder. You know, I had that, I'm going to prove everybody wrong. I'm this young mom and we're meant to fail. You know, we're set up as society thinks we're going to go to welfare. And, you know, and, and I just kept at it and, and, you know, they said to me, there's more here in, in, you know, just spare change just in, in side work than in any other job.

And so I started on straight commission, you know, you get, you get a job for a couple of months, but I was super stressed about it and, but I was making minimum wage. So like, how low could I fall? Right. So if, if nothing else, I could go work at Dick's drive-in, which was a big, big, uh, drive-in in Seattle back then. So, yeah, so I did it and, and never looked back. And, and I, to this day, you know, decades later, sales is an admirable profession. And, and if you're in, in a poor economic status, it's a way you can raise yourself out. And I've seen multiple people do it. I'm sure you have too. Oh yeah. And, and that's why I'm such a proponent of it because I do think it's not, and we'll get into this.

It's not the ultimate equalizer, right? There's still prejudice. There's still sexism. There's still the, the chips are stacked against you, but at least it's a profession that, that does tie effort to outcome, right? Like the harder you work, usually the more you get paid and the harder you work, the better you get and the better you get, the more you get paid. So, you know, you still might not be quote unquote equal in a lot of ways if you, if you pan it out, but it's even the smarter and like more creative, you know, because I'm sure you would agree. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but we could be dropped into any city in America and sell our way out of town. It's not like the factory's closing.

What are we going to do? Like you never, and if you lose deals, like we've talked about this, you know, economy, the, the market change and everything is you don't just sit and you can feel bad for a couple of days, but at some point you, you shift and you, you find another strategy and that's what we do as sales professionals. I mean, I, that couldn't be more. I mean, we've talked about this, you know, early 2023, I went from 6 million to zero in fucking two months. And I remember just sitting there in my office, like looking out my window being like, like, okay, haven't, haven't seen this yet. You know, I like this one's the one of the worst. Like, it's not like I lost a half million dollar deal or I missed my forecast here.

I'm like, I have 20 employees. I have a burn of $400,000. And I went down to, and I went from 6 million to zero in three months. So, or in two months, I'm like, all right, um, let's figure this out. And, and that actually. Yeah, but it's figureoutable, right? Right. It's figureoutable. You find a new way and it, and it gave, and looking back may, it might be too soon. I don't know, but you know, it's some, I don't think it is, but you see that, you know, there are ups and downs in life and business and, and we figure things out and that's what we do as sales professionals. Could I ask you, so we had this conversation. I was telling you, I was in New York yesterday and Sarah Huey, you know, who's young getting in there, you know, building her brand and everything else.

And we were talking about, you know, women in sales and the challenges and the, the, there's the excuse side of the house. And then there's the motivation side of the house. And I'm still, and I'm, I'm desperately trying to figure out this with Charlotte because, you know, you talk about grit and you'll, if you, if people listen to my podcast, they know that I've, I've asked a bunch of times to a bunch of people like, do you need to go through some super hard ship, right? To, to, to develop grit. And the overwhelming feedback is yes, but I'm an example of the opposite. I grew up. I mean, again, I think we had talked like Susie Welsh when I worked, you know, worked for Jack and Susie Welsh for a little while.

She asked me my origin story and I told her, I was like, oh, my parents are, you know, married for 50 something years. My sister's this and that is the, went to school, did this. And when I was done, she was like, wow, you're the one. And I was like, what she's like the 2.5 kids, white picket fence thing. Like you're, you're the actual one that that's describing. And it like, it hit me like a ton of bricks at that moment. I was like, fuck. Cause I'm thinking all my friends would divorce, you know, parents divorced and the shit that they went through. But I feel like I have grit. And so I, I guess the question is for you, you're from Boston. Well, if that's the East coast thing, I think that helps.

I think that helps, but for, but specifically for women, you know, you do hear a lot of women in, in, in any non white male scenario. There's some people that use it all as an excuse. Oh, the deck stacked against me. Well, always me. And then you use the other ones like, fuck it. Like Sarah, she was like, I don't give a fuck. She's like, my, my dad was a piece of shit. This, that, that, and the other thing and whatever. And yeah, my mom was a CEO of a company and she made a bunch of money. And so I live like, she's like, I actually relate more towards your story, John, that nothing bad happened to me, even though I have this horrible thing here, but I could have used this horrible thing over here for my dad and all this other shit to, to drag me down.

But I didn't, she's like, I just, I have no connection to it. So could you help like all the different things you've seen personally, but also the people you've worked with, where does, where does that, like, it, it become okay to talk about the challenges that we face, but it's like, okay, now we have to fucking do something about this. And now you have to pull yourself up and fucking make it happen. Yeah. And, and I share my origin story because I don't want to dwell on it. And, and in fact, you were the one that told me, why don't you share the story more often? Cause I feel like, you know, I have two or three times and it's gotta be somewhere on LinkedIn. And if you Google me, you can find it, but, um, people don't, you know, that people are not tracking you every moment of every, every thing, every word that you said.

And, uh, I mean, for sure using excuses is not going to support you in sales. I, I believe in, you know, the idea of, of having supportive beliefs. So you want to say things to yourself, like, so my son is involved in sports and athletics. I've been around that for forever since I was, you know, probably 24, 25 years old. And, and we have to say things that support us. If you're a competitive athlete and you lose a game on Friday night and you have a game Saturday, you got to forget that it's no different in sales. So you're the home team and you, you have to support yourself. So having some story about this won't work because of that, you got to shift that. So, so successful salespeople don't do that.

So that's the first thing, those top reps we're talking about, they don't, they don't have that baggage. And when I hear people will approach me, you know, I'm an older woman in sales and some, a woman approached me recently and said, you know, these kids are interviewing and, and, you know, I didn't, I never get a second interview and, you know, they think I'm too old. And I said, no, you think you're too old. I said, you need to stop. I said, don't tell me about it. Don't, you know, this is my advice to you is that think about what you have going for you and sell that, push that, promote that. There's no room for that. Nobody wants to hear it. And, and so I don't care who it is, if it's a woman or man, you know, I'm the first person to say, you don't have room for excuses in this industry that I'm in maybe somewhere else, but maybe in the, you know, on the somewhere else where people sit around and complain, but I don't like those people.

No. And that's the problem. It's like, and that's why the challenge for me is nature nurture, right? Is how much of that is nature versus nurture? And can you nurture it? Because, you know, there's plenty of examples where, you know, my wife's one of them where parents got divorced early age, you know, Kim took it and said, fuck this. I'm going to, you know, succeed and all this other stuff. Even at that young age where her sister, you dragged her down into the dump, you know what I mean? And, and one is now deep depression. The other one's doing great. You know what I mean? And it's like saying, you know, okay, her sister was a little bit older, you know, and, and so it was impacted a little bit more because the teenage thing versus, you know, nine versus 13 when that happened.

So I'm not going to discount that. And I also, by the way, I'm not going to discount the mental, mental, like the genuine physiological things that have certain people have that, that others don't. Right. There's some real issues people have. Yeah. Like, like depression is a real thing. I don't understand depression. I get sad, but I don't, I don't understand depression. So I can't talk to that. So I do think people are wired a certain way, but I also think there's a mental, you talked about the mental side of this and how important that is compared to everything else. Yeah. And it's, you know, we used to call it being positive versus being negative. I think both those words have a lot of baggage and it's like, oh, John, you're so positive when all these other people are looking for jobs.

It's like, no, you have supportive beliefs. You say things that support yourself moving forward. And, and when you say things that don't support you, it's important to catch them and to realize what you're doing. You're doing that to yourself. And if you're saying it out of your mouth, you're doing it to everyone around you. So the one guy on the sales team that says, oh, John, that'll never work. Cause we tried it before. It's like, well, what if it did work and how, how would that happen? And what if we shifted? So I'm not going to say you're being negative, but I'm going to say, let's, let's be more supportive toward our goals. Cause that's what we're here for. We're here to move forward.

That reminds me like when I started at Basho, I, you know, he had a whole list, my least favorite boss on the planet. It was not Jeff. Jeff is my favorite person, but my actual VP was a douche. Anyways, um, he asked me like to put all these, you know, these, uh, all the names of clients that might be target accounts for us based on the profile. I just walk in day one. Right. And PTC was on the list and he's looking through the list. Cause I had a friend who worked in like the finance department. So I was like, I don't know, maybe I can ask him for an intro. And, uh, and, and my boss is like, oh, don't, don't even take them off your list. I was like, why? He goes, well, I've tried to get in there.

You know, didn't work. CEO tried to get it. Jeff tried to get in there. Didn't work. He's like, they don't do outside vendor training. And I was like, hmm, I was like, you want to bet? And he was like, what? I was like, I'll bet you I can get in there. Right. And he's like, I was like, oh no, he actually, he asked me, I go, I bet you I can get in there. He's like, oh, I'll bet you. I was like, okay, well, what's the bet. He's like, I'll give you a thousand bucks. I was like, on top of my commissions. And I was like, he's like, yep. I'm like game fucking on. So one thing leads to another. I get in. It's one of my favorite closes of all time. Right. And I go back to him. I'm like, all right, give me my goddamn thousand dollars.

And he fucking negged on it. I was like, you piece of shit. Anyways, but it was the, just the joy of being like, you, you tell me I can't do this. Like now this is the number one thing I'm going to focus on doing. And haven't you heard that time and time again? I mean, I remember talking to, I think it was, was it Natasha Sakat maybe she got the worst territory when she got into sales because they didn't want her to succeed because she was female and she turned it into a top territory in New York city. And you know, it happens. There's so many hero stories like that. That's why my tolerance for my territory sucks is almost zero. Cause the exact thing, like Xerox, they gave me the shittiest state and local government.

They had six reps in five years, like zero trust, nothing. And they gave it to me and I'm like, okay, great. And they're like, this territory hasn't produced shit in years. So good luck. I was like, oh fuck. But then turned it into the best territory within a year and a half and everything else. So yeah, it's just, to me, I'm trying to figure it out right now. Cause cause of Charlotte, right? Yeah. I don't, she's not going to have to struggle for much. I guess it is what it is. We're in a position with our lives and our careers that we don't, you know, she's not going to need, she goes to a private school. She is this, you know, and you know, we try to instill the values and all that stuff. But the grit factor is like, when is that going to kick in?

And I'm like, as a parent, I'm like, I can't force it, but it's killing me to not see that, right? Cause your son early on, your son was hockey and like, just fucking all in, right? Like how early was your kid? Well, it's funny because he got, Leon, he got a scholarship to prep school. And I remember when he got that scholarship, I thought we were so lucky. Like how lucky are we that this, you know, we didn't have that money at the time and, and he was going there. And, and what I realized over time is that a lot of the, the wealthy kids that he hung around for the next three years, you know, he had a much higher work ethic than a lot of them. Not all he, there's some great kids and it didn't, it wasn't money dependent for sure.

But there were some kids where at the end when he graduated, I thought how lucky were they that, that he was there because he worked, he worked hard. He, that's what he had, you know, he had hard work. That's, that was what he brought to the table and that's what helped him out a lot. And then he, then he went on to Northeastern and, and we, I had friends back in Seattle, these hockey dads that were like, well, you know, we got in, but will he ever play, you know? And, and he worked his ass off and, you know, he played and he played for three years and then he played professionally. And, you know, he played in hundreds of games professionally as a professional player. Now he's a, an assistant coach at, at a top university in, in Minneapolis.

So yeah. So, and that was due to, that was hard work. Let me, let me ask you on that journey, right? Cause you became a hockey mom and, and, and you went to all of the tryouts and all the travel and, and you even had, I remember you had like kids come over to the house. You housed a bunch of them. We had players, Seattle Thunderbirds, um, the major junior team that live at our house. Cause they were all trying to get into the NHL. So that's what that league was all about. So what did you, with all those travels and watching coaching and watching, you know, hard work and all that other stuff, what did you pick up that was different? Like, so you had been in sales and you're doing all that. Did, did hockey teach you anything about coaching and mentalities and that type of stuff?

Yeah. I see great parallels. And it's funny because a lot of people will say women don't like to hear about sports and that, you know, a lot of times that we use all these sports analogies and, and I do that and I have to catch myself because I, Leon and I figured I probably seen over a thousand hockey games that are professional or collegiate or youth. And that's a lot, that's a lot of hockey, but what I, what I most impressed with are the coaches, like you said, and watching them and the best coaches and also the worst coaches. And yeah, I remember when Leon almost quit hockey because he had this horrible coach and the coach wouldn't talk to him and tell him what he wasn't doing. He was just benching him.

And so I talked to Leon and he'd say, well, he won't tell me anything. And I talked to the coach, we never all got together, which was stupid, but the coach said he knows exactly what to do. And he was just an ass. And, and ultimately we ended up going to Tony Robbins for three days in Vancouver. And it was, yeah, I was afraid he was going to, he wanted to quit hockey. And I said, you can quit hockey, but you got to find something else to do because he was so involved in it. And so we went up to, we drove up to Vancouver. It was actually a gift through the Anthony Robbins foundation, Tony Robbins foundation at the time. So we both went and he walked on hot coals with Tony Robbins. He thought it was super cool.

And then he, he got accepted to prep school, like not, not long after that. So, you know, connection, I don't know, but you know, it, it changed his life because he, he was not the kid that was being picked, you know, they wasn't one of the top players. And, and, and he went from not, you know, being as strong to, you know, just working hard and being focused and knowing what he wanted. Yeah. I think we all, you know, I keep asking my mom, like, where did, where did I ever kind of click into this high gear? And she was like, no, she's like, you were always just, you know, she thinks I was money motivated, but looking back on it, cause I was always trying to make money. Whatever. But it was, it, that wasn't the point.

My thing was, I, I never, I always wanted what I wanted. So if I wanted something, I didn't want to have to ask for it or wait for it or whatever. I wanted it. So therefore I needed to make money to get what I wanted. And so it was more of like the means to an end for me. And, you know, freedom for me is I've gone through the core value exercise and all that stuff. And freedom is like a screaming top three for me. And money is freedom. Let's face it. That's what I'm happy to tell younger people coming out when they go, Oh, I don't really care about the money. It's like money is freedom. Yeah. Like you should care about the money. A hundred percent. And people say, and it's true. Like money doesn't buy, my thing is when people say money doesn't buy happiness, I'm like, yeah, okay.

But it's sure as shit gets rid of unhappiness. Get you to Costa Rica though. Fuck. Yeah. Right. So like, and, and I'll be happy in Costa Rica. So, um, but that freedom to have your kid go to school, you know what I mean? Like they'll pay for this and pay for that. That to me is, was always my motivator. So now let's, let's kind of get into the eighties for you with the, cause you worked at, really in the eighties. Well, yeah, sorry. So, but you worked at like Apple, IBM and HP. Well, I, yeah, I was funded by them. So I had roles. Yeah. I, it was like, um, you know, the channel today it's called the channel, but I had roles that were funded by those guys and I went to corporate and I went to trade shows on their behalf and I, I was business development rep and different roles, um, but worked my way up through, you know, going, selling into enterprise and, um, and yeah, so I had a wide variety of trainings.

There was a lot of manufactured training back then. I was going to say what, like, how good was the training back then as you reflect back on it? Uh, I, some of it was really good. You know, it's like anything, it's like I had 23 bosses, some were great, some weren't awful, right? But, um, but the training generally, IBM had a really great training program and, and you didn't just get thrown out to the wolves and get handed a phone, you know, you, you had training and coaching and mentoring and stuff like that. So I, I really appreciated that. Do you think, cause I'm, I'm presenting to pavilion at the end of August and I'm doing a lot of research right now. I, I, the, it's called anything but predictable and it's basically saying the SDR model is a fucking joke.

It always has been, but right now it's an obvious joke. And what I'm proposing is we actually go back to, cause I grew up at Xerox, right? Six week, eight week sales training program, right? And it was all, I was always full cycle. Like this whole SDR thing is like, wow. Like if I had an SDR back then, I would have treated him like a God because like, I don't want to do that shit, but thank you. And I can't believe AEs treat SDRs like shit. It doesn't make any sense to me. But, but it was more about the fact that to your point, like we didn't just get, here's your territory. Good luck. It was eight week sales training program, then an apprenticeship, then in everything else. So what I'm proposing is we actually go back to that and we, we spend the first two years, because if you think of any GTM role, sales, marketing, rev ops, you name it, enablement, none of them you get taught in college to do the actual job.

Like I got my degree in marketing. As soon as I got into the real world, I was like, wait, nothing that I learned in school is fucking relevant to anything that's happening right now. Right. So because of that, GTM generalist role first year where they get exposed to all the different GTM roles, but they're like an admin effectively for the full cycle sales rep. Then GTM specialist second year where they pick a lane, right. And they start to like lean a little bit more than that. And, and, but flat salary, no commissions, nothing cost of sale baked in, but education throughout. And what I'm really trying to do is run the finances to see, yes, Xerox can do it. IBM can do it because they have billions of dollars and they can do those things.

But can a 10 person sales team do that? Can a, you know, $2 million revenue business do that? And I think it, I think they can. And so do you think we need to get back to a little bit crawl before you walk scenario when it gets into, when it gets into. I love what you're talking about. And I love the idea of moving around because now there's rev ops or wasn't that before, right? There are all these, there's so many adjacent roles to selling, get the sales fundamentals down because you'll use them the rest of your life. No matter what you do, whether you, you know, go off in another career or you're an entrepreneur, you're going to need those sales skills. So that, that would, I'd have a heavy concentration on that and then branch off into some of these different paths because people will see, and you shouldn't have to say, well, I think I would like this better.

I think customer success might be good. Why don't you get to try it? Try it out and see. So I love that idea. And, and I love the idea of staying close to sales. I've seen too many women leave sales, John. I mean, in the last few years and, and it started with the pandemic. And then women, a lot of women didn't want to go back in the office. I saw women managers and leaders that just left and we lost some good, good people. And, and now it's just more like, oh, I'm just tired of this, you know, that not being heard or found out my, my colleague who's male is making more money than me. It still happens. And so not to everybody, but to, you know, there's some great companies out there and shout out to the companies that are doing it right.

Thank you. Um, but there are a lot of women that are just like, you know what, I can be a fractional whatever now, you know, it's like cool and acceptable. Yeah. Well, I, I, there's been a lot, unfortunately, a lot of those women who have reached out to me saying, um, this fractional thing I thought was going to be awesome, but now that work, well, and now there's 8 million fractional whatevers and I think I need to get back. I'm like, yeah, now you're, you're trying to plug back into now things have changed drastically over the past two years with AI and everything like that. So if you haven't updated your skills on AI, you're trying to get back into that CRO role. Yeah. Not going to happen.

You're going to get discriminated. Then you're going to think it's discrimination because of age and all this other shit when it's really, you, you, you unplugged, unfortunately, to try to kind of create that lifestyle that you wanted. And now you're trying to plug back in into a different world, unfortunately. Yeah. And, and it, it always goes back to finding a company that, that you respect and finding leaders that you want to work for. And I say that to anyone, don't just take a role because it's a role. Find the people that will invest in you and help you grow. Cause I'm still growing at my age. I'm still, if I don't learn every day, I mean, I'm done. I'm done. Done. Did you ever, did you ever feel like giving up?

When I say that, like on the path that you were at and you were just like, so in sales, right. Where you just like, you've got to a point where you're just like, I can't deal, like, I can't deal with the sexism anymore. I can't deal with this bullshit anymore. I can't deal with this. Was there ever a point in your, in your mind, like where you were just like, no, this isn't, this isn't for me. No, it was always, and, and I think that's the, what we have from working in sales is that we have this brain that just figures out a different way. Now I have had many bad things happen and, and I've been passed over for promotion. I've been, I was removed from the Boeing account when I was doing a million dollars a month in, in, in revenue.

I mean, I sold a million dollars a month, month in, a month out. And then my buddy who was selling to Microsoft, he was doing a million dollars a month, month in, a month out. We'd have these contests for a long time, but I got taken off the account and it was, and it was because I'm a single parent and, and Ted, my buddy, Ted, who's still somewhere on LinkedIn. He, you know, he, he had a wife at home taking care of her kids. And so he could travel when needed. So, so, so, I mean, I had a valid lawsuit, but instead I went to the competition and I took, took some of the business away. Nice. And then my company, that company I worked for ended up going out of business, not because of me, but, but they just were not sound, you know, it was not good leadership.

And, and I went to a better company. So there's always a new, you know, it's just put a twist on it. What can I do differently? I've never, I don't even use the word discrimination. I funny, I've heard you say it and I don't even think of that word. I just think of, you know, some people like it, some people don't. And, and if, if I'm not in the right, getting the right vibe from where I am, I'll just go somewhere else. I don't push it anymore. I don't have to make you like me. No, I think that's the same thing with training too, right? It's like, you can't force people to take training. It's like, that's why I go 10, 60, 30. I go 10% of you is going to take it 60% something. Right. Because I, I've, I've, I used to, when I first, I don't know about you, but when I first started training, I was so passionate about it because it worked so well for me that if you were, if there was 30 people in the room and you were in the back of the room on your iPhone, I'd be like, Lori, eyes up, eyes up.

Come on, let's pay attention here. And I literally would try to stuff it down your throat because I knew it was good. Now I say to him, I'm like, look, I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit. So if you're going to sit there on your phone, if you're going to be off screen, if you're going to not be paying attention, that is your problem, not mine. I'm still getting paid to do this. So for the two to three people that are fucking paying attention, you're the ones I'm actually training everybody else. Good luck with your lives. And I don't give a shit about you. So yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. The value thing I think you bring up is like, go where you're appreciated or go where leadership can support you.

Yeah. So what is that process for somebody that you've worked with in the past who has kind of a negative, like they're looking for their new opportunity. Do you kind of coach them to say, hey, like A, can I get grounded again? And then B, really start to look for people that align with that? Yeah. And do it through introductions. Yeah. You know, who do you know that, you know, values all the employees that values the sales team members that's going to invest in them and help them develop and tell them what their path could be. Like, cause we know over time that the good people and the ones who are horrible, we know the horrible companies and we know the horrible people and luckily we don't broadcast it.

But, um, but, and if you, you know, you can always tell me on the side if there's somebody I need to know not to send people to, but yeah, I got plenty of them. But, um, but that's what I would look for now is, is cause your direct manager is so important, right? Oh, it's everything. It's just like a teacher going back to that, right? Like it's amazing how you talk to people who have become incredible at whatever it was and they can always point back to that teacher of science that they weren't really interested in science, but that teacher was so incredible at explaining that. And then all of a sudden they lit them up on fire of like, oh my God, science can be cool. And now they're Neil, Neil deGrasse.

You know what I mean? It's like my one class in high school that I like is zoology with Mr. Gantert. I'll never forget it. Although I didn't go to, I don't work in the zoo, but I do like going there. So let's, let's kind of move forward to today. So score more sales. You've been doing this for a while. Um, you know, I think both of us ups and downs with building these wonderful little sales training consulting firms here. You take a very interesting approach that, um, I wish more people would, which is kind of assessing first as opposed to just giving training, right? I mean, going back to that 10%, the only reason I sleep at night when I do the 10%, you know, when I, when I train big companies and I know that they're not going to do the follow-up or any of that stuff is that I know for a fact that there's five to 10% of the reps in that room that I know the light bulb is going to go off with, but that's not the right way to do it.

Right. So talk to me about your balance between kind of the science and art of sales, but also training. Yeah. And, you know, I started out as a trainer too, and I left corporate and, and I would go in and work with a team and then I'd check back later and I'd say, well, John, how much did it help the team? And, and you'd be like, I don't know, cause there's no way to measure it. There are no benchmarks. And that's when I started looking around for how could I measure how we did before and how we did after. And that's where I found some tools that we could wrap services around and we can help companies hire stronger salespeople, stronger sales managers, and also evaluate their existing team for not just the people, but the pipeline and the leadership.

Because if you don't have a VP of sales, who's holding the sales managers accountable, telling you, you know, it doesn't matter what the reps do because everybody knows, oh, John Hill, he'll let me get away with it. And so it starts there and, and works its way down. And, and while nothing is a hundred percent, I've just found really great results with using data and then applying the little bit of art, you know, to it as well, because it does take both. It takes, you know, we're bringing the empathy and the communication skills and negotiation skills. And that's not science. That's, that's the art part. That's, and that's what I wanted to talk about with where we're going right now. Cause I, cause with AI, I, I, to me, IQ is over like the, the, the IQ part of this.

So it's all EQ in my opinion. And I think the challenge we have right now is that we have a whole generation of kids that have grown up in front of a screen, not engaging with people, not doing full cycle sales, not going to networking events, not like sitting face to face with somebody and understanding body language and all that other stuff. So I, I think you're on the same page as me. I think that 80, 20 rule here is real. Like there's the 20% who are business acumen, have all this shit and have knowledge. And that is AI is going to make them assassins. Like the, holy shit. Like, because we have context and we don't just use it as the answer. We just kind of dig into it, but there's like 80% of the, our population, everybody else, I think is going to get smoked.

So how do you, how do you bring the EQ into a generation of sales professionals that, quite frankly, don't seem to have it? Yeah. Yeah. And, and we see that just people on, on screens that don't interact, that, that, that expression, read the room, you know, people don't know how to do that. So we're teaching fundamentals again. We're teaching the soft skills, if you will. And I'm all, I'm all about it. You know, I, it's, it's like, uh, it's like wearing what was fashionable in the eighties. All day. I got my Z Cavaricci still in my, but, but what, well, let's, let's make sure we define this though, because I think some people are, are, um, might not really know exactly soft skills, right? So what do you see as soft skills in sales?

Empathy, communication skills, listening skills, the, the idea of reading a room, whether it's virtual or in person and, and how to communicate in ways that, you know, get you moving forward, keep you moving forward and not offend people. And, and they're not just too short and choppy. Um, those are really important skills that you need to, to be successful in selling. It's not just about, well, here's what the data says. You know, we can't just go by AI with the results. It's how we're going to deliver it. And, and, and, you know, if, if an AI agent can send the first round to get you interested to talk to me, I better come in understanding your company. I know all the, I have all the analytics behind me and I have a way to, to have a conversation that will make you want to talk to me again or to have a further conversation.

I mean, that's critical. Yeah. I mean, it's a perfect example is this, like my podcast, I go through AI and I'm like, all right, give me, let me, let me ask every question that I would want. Like if I'm not educated on it, which I already was, but, but if I'm not educated on lawyer, I'm like, all right, tell me about her background. What's going on here? Where did she grow up? What's going on here? Like, so I have all that, but then it's like, I'm not just ripping through 12 questions that ChatGPT gave me to ask you. It's like, all right, now I need to learn a little bit more about that. The hockey thing with your kid. You know what I mean? Like that, I bet you there were some lessons in there that you took, right?

And tell me a little bit and then taking the conversation in whatever direction I'm curious about, but that's where curiosity, I think curiosity is a soft skill too. Curiosity is huge. And it's a, it's a tough one. So here's one for you. Can you teach it? Genuine curiosity. I'm going to say yes with an asterisk because it's just like, can you teach, like we have what we call figure it out factor, like how quickly someone will ramp up, you know, salespeople see patterns and that's what helps us to move forward. Some people don't see that. And, and, and just like coachability. Can you teach coachability? I mean, to a point you can, but ultimately you got, you have to bring it. You have to bring the, well, why was that?

Or, you know, an enterprising person that I've just met recently followed up with me and said, Hey, you mentioned this. So I went ahead and looked at X, Y, and Z and I'm like, Oh my God, like this person has initiative. You know, are you taking the initiative? It's not always going to pan out for you, but it doesn't need to just, it's like investing in companies. You only need a couple of big deals to win. And so follow up with people, don't ghost them. That's a whole nother session. Please stop ghosting people, everyone, companies included. Every, I was going to say, I wrote, I did a post a long time ago. I said, dear customers, it's okay to tell a sales rep. No, it genuinely, that's our second favorite answer in this whole fucking profession here.

The ghost, you turn us into stalkers and then we get weird. It's actually your fault. The fact that we're stalking you and annoying the piss out of you with 75 follow-up touching base and checking in emails, because all you got to do is say, piss off. I'm not interested in your shit. Leave me alone. And I'll be like, Oh my God, that's all we want. I lost the deal. Yeah. Yeah. I really agree. Yeah. It's, it's getting interesting out there. I will say I have, I have a lot of optimism right now for the people who have that figure out mentality. I am very pessimistic for those who don't. Yeah. And, and handling rejection. You know, I, I worked with a company. I tell people this sometimes that this, this guy that was one of the reps of the company, he had three meetings that day when I was, he was in, he was in New York city and he had three appointments with deals he wanted to close.

And, you know, they all had a bunch of people on the call and everything. And every one of them was a no when he got done. And so at the end of the day, he quit. Oh, come on. And he said, this is this, this job sucks. Now the guy didn't, obviously didn't qualify. Well, he had lots of other issues where he could have stepped back, but he was like, I can't take this. And I, I, I knew a guy once in my first job at bite shops in Seattle where he said, he said he, when he quit, he said, I've, I was a firefighter. He was a volunteer firefighter. He said, I pulled people out of burning buildings. He goes, this is worse. So, so no, not everyone can take it. Well, just like public speaking, right? Like public speaking, some people would rather, literally rather die than get up on stage and talk to people.

So, yeah, but it's just, they're the things that you have to master if, if you want to be successful. And I think we'll end on this because, you know, those soft skills that you talked about, you know, empathy, listening, curiosity. It's interesting because those are traits usually associated far more with women than men, which kind of leans into, right? Well, and that's where it's like, I've been saying, it's like, we've let men rule the world for a while, like for, and we've made a fucking mess out of this shit. Can we just give it to the women here and just see what happens? Because I'm fairly confident that they can do a fucking better job than us when it comes to leading shit. And, and, and I do think we're at this kind of inflection point and it's ugly right now.

There's no question about it. The toxic masculinity is still there. The, you know, all that we still need to talk, like I said, but there's, you can, I almost feel like it's, it's this, it's a reaction because they know that that approach is not, is crumbling. You know what I mean? Is, is it's just not going to be the way of the future. Well, you know, my, my opinion is like, well, if we're just as good, let's just say we're as good. Why aren't half the salespeople female? Why aren't half the sales leaders women? That's all I want is half. I just want half. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just more like, yes. And right. Like this, the opportunities, it's the, it's the finding the right leadership to, to, that has that mentality that is inclusive, that does like the diversity of teams and the different diversity of voices and, and such.

And, and quite frankly, just again, it's, it's people are lazy because I think you have to, you have to, as you know, my privilege tattoo talks about, you have to be conscious about that privilege. And then you have to proactively seek it. Cause it's so much easier for me to talk to a white guy. Who's my, oh yeah, we got, we all, we played sports. We grew up in Boston. Like, oh, you and me like, cool. But you have to look outside of that, you know, your bubble, if you will. And once you do, you start, it's like when somebody, first time somebody travels internationally, you know what I mean? It's like, you're stuck in your real hometown and you're like this fucking, you know, USA, we're the greatest.

And then all of a sudden, everybody else sucks. And then all of a sudden you travel internationally, like, whoa, like everybody else is actually pretty fucking cool. And, uh, they kind of similar to me. They just speak a different language. Like this is interesting. And it's the same thing in sales. We just got to pick our head out of our ass. It's always good to widen your horizons as any way you can. Awesome. Well, Lori, any, uh, anything, I mean, look, I could talk to you forever and we do, uh, when we get together, um, hopefully we'll get together again soon, but is there anything else that, uh, you want to kind of get to the audience and, uh, before we get out of here? No, it's been a pleasure to talk with you, John.

I, you know, sales is an admirable profession. It still is. There's still room for people to get into it, male or female. Um, you know, you just got to work to be the best, you know, work to be, if, if you feel like you can do that and you, you have the will to succeed, you should give it a shot and, and stay in it. If you're having a bad situation, reach out to somebody like us. And, you know, I'm happy to give my two cents and, and, and even refer people certain places. So you got score more sales, you got women in sales, where women sales pros, sorry, women sales pros. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry. Women in sales. That's Alexi Moudoir, whom I'm a big fan of. Yes. Uh, so where can people find out more information about what you're doing, what you're working on?

Cause again, I think the training side of the house with the assessment and then, you know, prescription of it is fantastic. Score more sales, wherever, you know, add score more sales, score more sales.com and, uh, happy to reach out and talk to anybody. Awesome. All right. Well, Lori, hopefully, like I said, we can cross paths here in person one of these days. Yeah. Hopefully soon, John. One of these weird, uh, I'm not as much on the, on the circuit anymore with the conference. We're not doing the dream force this year, right? I don't think so. I don't, yeah, I don't know. Well, let's put it this way. If somebody pays me to be there, then yes, I will probably be there. But the, the days of me taking a week out of my schedule and dropping 10 to $15,000 and running around like a maniac at a show that I don't know what the hell is going on are kind that over.

So, yeah, I hear you. Awesome. Lori, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. And everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And like I say at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much and I will see you on the other side. Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now and I can't thank you enough. Now, to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me if you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network.

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