Marcus Chan: $950M in Sales and the Grit Behind It

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So I'm super excited to be partnering with them to give you an exclusive offer to get Otter.ai for sales today for free. Go to otter.ai, that's O-T-T-E-R dot A-I forward slash JBSales to get your free offer and start saving time and selling more effectively today. Once I started earning the trust of everyone, they started seeing me on the leaderboards. I will go to my leadership and I'll say, I noticed the team seems to struggle a little bit of discovery. I have a really simple eight-step framework that I use in my discoveries. I'll be happy to teach the team if you're open to it or next training me. Of course, my last is like, that sounds great. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us.

And today's conversation is with Marcus Chan. Marcus Chan is the CEO of Venly Consulting, where he helps sales teams discover two to 10 million in hidden revenue by installing revenue operation systems. His clients have generated 950 million using this framework, which is pretty damn impressive. Now, I've known Marcus for a while now. We're both on the Salesforce Insiders or Sales Blazers group. And we got to finally meet a few years back at Dreamforce. And him and I share a very similar approach to sales. A lot of it is rooted in grit and hard work. And so that's where we started with Marcus. We talked about his upbringing as an immigrant family and how he had to work, I think, at like, I don't know, six years old or something like that in his family's Chinese restaurant and vowed that he never actually wanted to be an entrepreneur and then got into school and marketing and had a similar track to me, but started to realize that he actually fought about sales like I'm not in sales for a while and then finally accepted the fact that he was.

And even when he didn't really think he was in sales, he was turning companies around like Cintas, one of the worst performing groups in the organization. He turned to one of the best. And so we talked about how he did that, the frameworks that he used, how to give feedback to, because again, I think we've all gone soft these days and feedback, direct feedback is one of the best and only ways that we can really develop. And so how he does that and does that, you know, with some tact, but also without, you know, beating around the bush too much. And we just got into a bunch of really cool conversations about managing growth. You know, he's actually going in a slightly different direction than I am with his, he used to do B2C all the time and now he's all in on B2B.

I'm all, I was all in on B2B forever. And now I'm kind of trying to really figure out that B2C with my new membership platform. So lots to unpack here. Lots of knowledge. Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Marcus Chan, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How you doing? Dude, John Barrett, my man. Always a pleasure because we have the same haircut and we're pretty direct guys too. So it always, it's always a fun conversation. Yeah, I think it's going to be a good one, man. We've been, how, actually I was thinking about it. When did we actually meet? Do you remember when we actually connected the first time? Because I know it's been some years and we're, you know, the sales force stuff, but I don't remember actually when we met.

Do you have, do you remember that at all? I think, let's see, we did virtual stuff for sure. Right. I think it was probably during COVID times when we probably met virtually, but then I think probably dream force a few years ago in person, right? Cool. And it's funny because you're not the same person online that we are offline, which is great to see. Yeah. That's. So now you see, you see disconnect, right? Dude, I tell you, I was just having this conversation this morning, like about authenticity, right? Because I'm, you know, Instagram and all this trying to tell my story and it was like authenticity. And, and I just, I can't wrap my head around why authenticity is a, is a differentiator. It's like, it's like a superpower because to me, it's so much harder to be full of shit.

Oh yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, oh yeah. It takes too much effort to be full of shit. You have like, remember the lies you make. Like I tell my wife, I'm a terrible liar. Me too. You know, like, because I just like, I just say, I can't remember lies. I'm not like a liar. I'm just like, I have a poor memory. Yeah. You need to be a straight, I don't know. Well, we're going to talk about like the direct factor and feedback. Cause I think that was going to be the theme of this one. Um, I think you're seeing some of the same stuff I'm out there right now. Uh, wrote a post recently that went wild on it. But before we get into that, Marcus origin story, my friends, I know you got an immigrant family, you sold some cool shit you got in.

So walk us through kind of what made Marcus, Marcus. Yeah, a hundred percent. So first off, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure as usual, but, uh, you're right here from immigrant family, right? Parents came from China and Taiwan came from absolutely nothing during the communist revolution. He came to America. Nobody hired them. They started a Chinese restaurant. So I got the pleasure at the age of five to start working the restaurant at a very young age. And, uh, I grew up just going to work in my ass off, right? With them the whole time. And, uh, I remember like, as I got older, I'm like, man, I never want to be an entrepreneur. I never want to do my own thing. This is the worst. How can I find a way to maybe like make money with my brain or my skills?

Right. And, um, so when I graduated, I got into B2B sales and this is in the last recession. So this is like 2007. Right. And, uh, I, I, I grew up working hard. So I think I'd be pretty good. I wasn't almost got fired pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good. Rapidly was one of the worst reps, mentally figured it out, had some pretty good success, got promoted a number of different times and to work for two fortune 500 companies for 14 years. Um, in my first eight years, promote 12 times and my first eight years hit number one, every single role last role for like last for four years, ran an org of 85 employees. We did over 200 million years in sales every single year. Um, how long fun doing that, you know, what all the wars at all stuff.

Then eventually when started my own business in 2019 and that was scary, but fun. And, uh, we dove in headfirst, helping directly first with AEs, helping them to crush their roles and then scale to B2B teams. And, uh, faster it's been six years and man, here we are. Now we're talking. Love it, man. Let's talk. Um, I didn't, I didn't pick this one up. What was your major in college? I was a marketing and Chinese major. Marketing and Chinese major. Okay. It, so walk me through that thought process. I know the reason I went into marketing cause it was default. Cause basically I, I went like my first, cause I didn't know what the fuck I wanted to be. Right. So I was like my first, my first, uh, major was art and I was like, whoa, apparently I'm not that good.

Right. And I can't make any money. Right. Then I went into like engineering cause my dad was an engineer and I, whoops, nope. Calculus kicked me in the, right. Um, then science, I was like a biologist cause whatever, no. And then I kind of looked at marketing. I was like, all right, this, this, this seems a pretty easy and B it kind of combines a lot of the skills that I had. So how did you, was, was it a default or was it a purposeful decision to go into marketing? I wish I could say it was purposeful. It was not. So first off, you know, when, I mean, what, what, what 17 year old kid knows what they want to do in college? I mean, for the rest of their life, supposedly I had no idea. Ridiculous.

Yeah. So like I was actually a pretty artsy kid. I love to draw. And my parents were like, you should be an architect cause artists are poor. Yeah. I'm like, exactly. Yeah. Good advice. That seemed to make sense. Yeah. So I actually went, um, I fell through the whole application to go to the architecture school, the university of Oregon. I was actually going to about to turn it in. And then my parents were like, Hey, listen, one of our customers are coming to the restaurant. He's actually an architect in town. Got a pretty big firm. Do you want a job? Should I be great experience for you? And maybe you can add to your application. I'm like, that sounds great. I go and I check it out and I realized I completely hate it.

Like I, I thought it'd be like, you know, late nights on the drawing board and like building stuff. No, it was all done on computers even at that time. So it was all on software. I'm like, this is not what I expected. So literally just trashed the application when it undeclared. Right. And then I'm like, well, I need to probably pick something because of those pressure for my family. I'm like, well, I already speak Chinese, so I can probably learn how to read and write. So I'll probably get an easy A. So I'm like, pick that first. Yeah. And my parents are like, what are you going to do with that? I'm like, I have no idea. I'm like, they're like, you should probably go into business. I'm like, yeah, sure.

But that looked a business. I'm like, well, economics looks really hard. You know, like, you know, you know, like stats looks really hard. I'm like, finance looks really hard. I'm like, marketing looks pretty easy. Like, let me go that path. So I'm like, I guess I'll just be a marketing in Chinese major. So I had no idea what I was going to do with that, but I'm like, let's just go see what happens. Love it, man. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process.

It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like ChatGVT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to JBarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation. So then where'd you catch it? Cause you, I mean, you're even growing up. I noticed that you're a chef, you're a swim coach, you're, you know, all these different things. Yeah. What, what, and in the entrepreneurial gene was there, even though you might not have seen it and you probably revolted against it.

When did it click that sales was like, when did you catch the sales bug? Like, Ooh, this is, this is what I like. This is what I want to do. It actually took me a long time. So it probably took me, um, let me think for a second. So it probably took me about nine years into my sales career before I realized it. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know why, so then why was it a necessity? So again, let's go similar, probably stories. Like I got out into the real world with my marketing degree and I looked around going, Ooh, I don't want any of these fucking jobs. And by the way, none of them paid me enough to pay back my student loan, like all these types of things. So I'm like, Hey sales, I heard you can make some money in that.

Let me, let me try that shit out. Right. And then that's where I just kind of fell into that too. So what was the shift between like you graduated and then those nine years talking about those nine years. Cause most people, if they don't love it, those nine years don't happen. It's like in and out in less than two years, like fuck this job. Like I can't do this. So why did, what was the transition in them? Why just stay for nine years without loving it? Oh yeah. So it's interesting, right? So, you know, when I was going to school, um, I knew I was supposed to get an internship. I'm like, I should get internships. That's what I should do. And you know, when you're in like college, you have no real skills.

I don't really have a focused degree. Like, you know, I can't really get the great internships. So I'm going around at the career fair, looking around and just seeing what's out there. And the first internship or, uh, that I got was, uh, enterprise rent a car at the time. Nice. They had this sales and management internship. And I'm like, okay, this seems interesting. And I'm like, oh, cool. I get to learn how to run a business. There's sales, there's management, there's a PNL. I'm like, this sounds interesting. I'm like, let me just do it. And for me, there was this weird thing where I was so used to like, literally like, uh, working at either like food festivals, like in like a hundred degree heat, you know, getting sweaty in front of a grill all day or working in a hot restaurant.

And I'm like, I get to wear a shirt and tie. Wow. This feels, this is already an upgrade. I'm like, I already feel awesome. Right. Now little did I know you're just watching cars in the shirt and tie in the, in the, in the hot heat now. But I started to learn how to like, you know, to sell and basically sell insurance people coming in. Right. And doing upgrades. But also I learned how to run a business. So I was studying the PNL with my boss and really understand operationally how they made money and how the business actually ran. And that was really interesting. And I was actually pretty good at it. So like, you know, my first year I won't be intern of the year, the high sales. I was like, even now all the full-time employees, they're like, who is this kid?

Came back for a second summer because I did a five-year program because I studied abroad and had also another band of year. And then, then I'm interviewed. I'm, it's my super senior year. I'm interviewing all these different places. I really don't know what I'm going to do. So I'm like, I'm like, you know what? I should probably go with these management trainee programs. They love, they love people like me, uh, poor kids who grew up gritty, who can work really hard and just do whatever it takes. So I started interviewing and I ended up getting like five different job offers. I'm like, this is kind of awesome actually. And, um, and they would range from like, um, like a 30 K base, like a 60 K base from like, you know, banks down to like, you know, it's like to enterprise, et cetera.

And what was really interesting was at this point, um, enterprise actually started a brand new truck division in Oregon. So it's a complete startup. And the guy overseeing it was actually the area manager who hired me as an intern. So he came to me and said, Hey, listen, Marcus, we have this huge opportunity here. Like this is a brand new market. Like we have zero customers. This is different than what you've been doing. You know, one's coming in to buy insurance upgrades. You need to go and basically help grow the business. And I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. He's like, you're going to be a pioneer in this and help me build it from scratch. So he really sold the vision to me. Right. I got in.

It's a sales job. I had no idea, but I was sold by the vision. So I was like, I'm going to sales. I'm like, I tell my parents, I'm like, yeah, I turned on that 60 K other job at the 50 K job for this 29, five base salary job. But you know what? I am building the future. This is exciting. My dad's like, Oh my God, what is wrong with you? Why didn't you go for this job? I'm like, it's not sales, dad. It's not sales. I'm building the business. So of course it wasn't as you now know, everything sales, right? Oh yeah. 100%. And it was like, no joke. Like, here's the, here's the, here's the phone book. Go dial, rip the dial. There's no training. Good luck. Go, go pound payment. Right. So, um, that was like how I got into it.

Right. And I'm like, Oh man, this was like, this is really painful. And I almost quit, uh, obviously early on because I was no good. But you know, at the time out of necessity, the economy started to tank. So this is like unemployment started to go walkers to on seven time frame. This is like, you know, late summer now at this point, you know, business are really physically closing doors, right? I had a physical territory. So I'd be like, this building's boarded up. This building's boarded up. I can really see all these like foreclosed homes. I'm like, this is like, it's not, this is scary. I'm like, if I quit now, what am I going to do? Move back home. Like, I don't want to do that. So I kind of just sucked it up eventually figured out I had success with it and then got the opportunity for the next several years to get started getting promoted where I would sell.

I had my own number and had to lead a team. So I got to do both. And still, again, I wouldn't have meant I was in sales. Eventually I changed to a different company called Cintas Corporation, which they, they sell like facility services, uniform, first day, that type of stuff. Right. Pretty big company. And it was actually a two step to motion back into sales. So I got kind of burnt out by leadership for a little bit, but also because it was also a very operational role. So we had to take everything from cradle to the grave. It was like, we had to sell new accounts, bring them in, grow the account and manage the account. So like over time, like we sold, we sold so much business that we were stuck with all this maintenance on backend and account managing.

So it went from like a hundred percent new business to like maybe 10% new business and 9% like retention and growing a good problem to have, but I hated it. I'm like, I love the hunting part. I loved, I just like, you know, I didn't, so again, I wasn't willing to admit as a sales role, but I'm like, let me just like take a couple steps back or different company, you know, better comp structure, upper mobility. And let me kind of see what I can do from there. Right. Still wasn't really, I didn't want to say I was in sales or anything like that. All right. Ended up sticking out for another, you know, several years. Right. You know, another like almost 10 years. Right. You know, getting promoted up.

Right. And it's interesting because during this whole time, right. I'm getting promoted up. I'm breaking records. We're hitting presence. We're doing all these things. And I still wasn't really willing to admit I was in sales. Like for instance, you're at a wedding. So they, what do you do? You know, I didn't say I'm in sales. I wasn't willing to admit that. Right. I'm like, Oh, you know, like I help businesses do this, you know, like, you know, trying to get trying to posture or go by title. Right. Um, but it was about nine years in at that point. And by the way, I didn't realize I was decent at sales. Right. Uh, I just, I just worked really hard. I'm like, I just have this like level of work ethic that I think most people are just not working hard and, you know, I'm willing to figure out, I'm willing to fail forward.

But about nine years in, you know, people started asking me, they say, Hey, listen, like, how did you generate these results? Like how have you basically won in every single role? How do you keep getting promoted? How do you keep like, you're coming in new territory. You're like, you're like, we're not really used to seeing this, you know, like, like, how are you doing this? And I'm like, I don't know. I think I just work really, really hard. Right. And at that point, I started to realize, I mean, there were certain things that I was doing that people just were not doing. They just were not effective at doing, and they didn't have a good tolerance for pain. And I realized by being able to kind of stick through it and eventually learn to love sales nine years in was because I have a high tolerance for pain that I'm willing to endure, like basically eating shit for a long time.

And no, there's no payoff for a long time, which is like the classic, like, you know, go to instinct for a, an entrepreneur. Right. So at that point, I still wasn't willing to be, you know, want to go into entrepreneurship, but that was for sure. With these little seeds getting planted in my mind, I'm like, Hey, maybe I can do something more on my own, but that's kind of how I ended up sticking it through for that long. Love it, man. And I think that, you know, look, I have a similar track. Like I, I, DeWalt, I was, DeWalt was my first job and it didn't, it wasn't sales. It was basically event marketing, but it was absolutely sales. Right. I had to go around, you know, construction sites and give away free tools and do demos and shows and stuff like that.

Then I got promoted to DeWalt, to the Home Depot team. And that's where I had to take like a $10,000 order, turn it into a 50. So it was sales, but you know what I mean? Yeah. Xerox and I was like, okay, this is fucking sales. Like, yeah, brutal. Um, but yeah, but you know, it was funny because, you know, there was also a real, I think I have a similar story where like work ethic, I knew I wasn't the smartest kid out there by any stretch of the imagination, but I knew I could outwork everybody. So at Xerox, when I was working, I, same thing, like people are blowing smoke up my ass and I'm like, I, I'm just doing my job. Like, like you guys asked me to do this job and this is like, like, I don't even think I'm going extra.

I'm literally just doing the job. And, but, oh man, you're like everything. And it was so rare. So I was like, huh? And I remember when startups really clicked for me because I was like, okay, I remember like, okay, apparently I'm good. So here's the job I have. Here's the next job that is after that. And then there's this job. Like I want that one. Like, so how can I, how fast can I get there? And they were like, well, you got to two years to do this and two years of this and two years. And I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. I'm like that guy over there that you make fun of, like, he's going to get the same opportunity for a promotion as I am. Yeah. He's like, yeah, that's the way we work. And that's where, like, I just, I, I didn't fit in corporate and I didn't know why.

And then when I got into startups, I was like, oh fuck, thank God. Like, this is where I'm supposed to be. Let me bring you back to Cintas because you crushed it there, right? But you weren't in sales. So I'm interested in this, the psychology around you, where your head was and what you did at Cintas, not, not believing you were in sales, but taking that, you know, and then turning it into the annuity, whatever. But what, when you came in, what did you, what did you do different than what, what was, what was previously being done? And like, what were like the top three things that you walked in and changed or did that were either unconventional or just not being done that allowed, since you guys, I mean, I think the, yeah, it's crushed it, right?

Like it's a sales team. It's a $10 billion you're accompanying now. It's an $85 billion market cap. But it was your, but I mean, wasn't it the, the team, the worst, almost one of the worst performing sales teams? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So how did you, how did you shift that culture? How did you shift that mentality? Not thinking even that you're in sales? A hundred percent. So there's a few things that, that built up to it, right? So first off, when I, when I joined the org, I took, I came in as an, basically an AE and I'm like, okay, I also knew, um, you know, talking to leadership, I had, they had basically kind of had a, they had to really recruit me over as well. So the plan was I would go and sell, really prove I'm as good as I say I am, do for a few years.

And then maybe in two, three years, I could then interview for a sales leadership role. You had to earn the stripes. I'm like, you know what? I'm good with that. That's fine. I'll make a bunch of money for a couple of years. And it is what it is. Right? So I, I came in and I already knew the culture wasn't really great. And once I, once I joined the team, it became even more apparent, right? Because like nobody has presence club in Portland, Oregon. We're not a big market, like the Bay area or Dallas or Miami, a bunch of excuses. And I'm like, that's totally fine. So day one, and because I had done a bunch of team turnarounds even before this, um, I had realized I couldn't come in there and try to be a hot shot.

I had to really just basically put my money or I, my mouth was going to be right. I didn't stop a big of a game. I came in and I just started to literally execute. Right. And they had certain playbooks in place. Like they were very much numbers driven. Like, Hey, here's a list of a hundred dials. Go make the dials. Right. And most average reps would just kind of do that. I mean, I'll just do the, the extra work. I'll prepare my list. I would do my research. I'll make sure I came ready to go. And I can just rip through my numbers. I would prioritize and tear it out. So that way, you know, once there's my call block, I can go in the right order of my hottest ones to my coldest ones. So like, while most people just had no strategy.

So I come in, they started to see me just execute the playbook. And it is basically a slightly different way, but a better way. Right. They would have their discovery. I'll just run the discovery. I knew how to do, which is a really deep, more complex discovery. So they see like, Oh my God, like, like what kind of discovery is this? But they would see how I could take someone who had a latent pain and convert to active within 30 minutes. And they're like, that's interesting. And then I started to look at other things that are doing that was kind of old school. I'm like, for instance, they had presentation binders. That was a physical, this was like 2009. They had these giant physical binders.

They wanted people to take in and like flip through. I'm like, this is like from 1939. So I literally went and I just like, I scanned and built my own deck. I can put on an iPad. Right. So I can walk into these presentations, do a killer discovery, whip out the iPad, show a kick-ass presentation. And it's run a regular real sales process. And they would seem like, Oh my, who is this guy? So I'm this new rookie. And then whenever I, whenever I did all these little things, there weren't like, there weren't rocket science. Right. Like, for instance, I had a call prep sheet that was consistent. So I prepared the same way for every call, the same way every single time. And there was other reps would ride with me because they're going to coach me.

They're going to be a bit more seasoned. They're like, what is that? I'm like, this makes it easier for me to take my notes, but I can come prepared. Like, Oh my God, that's a good, that's a great idea. It's just these, these, these similar frameworks. Right. So then as I started to obviously perform and get results, it started to build like this reputation. Like, Oh, but then on top of that, I would like intentionally do things. So like, once I started earning the trust of everyone, they started seeing me on the leader boards, I will go to my leadership and I'll say, Hey, listen, I noticed the team seems to struggle a little bit of discovery. I have a really simple, you know, like eight step framework that I use in my discoveries.

I'll be happy to teach the team. If you're open to it or next train to me, of course, my last is like, that sounds great. So I'll start to do these things. So naturally intentionally positioning myself at a higher level. Right. And then some people start seeing a different level. So then of course I'll try to help people as well that were struggling a little bit. Right. And then once I got promoted nine months in, which is one of the fastest promotions in company history and to go over the team. And by the way, I was interviewing some bunch of other people. Right. But because I'd done a very similar transition many, many times, I got a whole plan. I showed them. I showed them all my proof on how I basically would basically lead the team.

So hopefully I became the obvious choice, end up getting the role. And I knew I had to earn the trust of the team. So, um, so what I started to do was, you know, first I already had like a hypothesis about how people were performing. And, you know, my first 30 days was I was going in, I need to build trust at a deeper level because I need to perceive me a certain way. So literally I'm going, I'm only doing ride alongs, all the reps. I'm not coaching them. I'm just getting to know them, uncovering what, you know, what, what they do really well, what their strengths are, their challenges. And I'm just putting together a game plan. Like what are the things we can kind of apply as a team to make things better?

I made zero change in my first 30 days in Hengerlay. So then once I started to figure out, okay, cool, like this is what you start to do. And of course, identify at that point who the red flags on the team. So there are certain people had to get off the team. So I just knew they're, they're just not a good fit. Right. So I started to actually have conversations with them to actually get them to other roles in the company. I'm like, you're a better fit for these other roles. And I'll sell them into other roles intentionally. They weren't producing revenue, but what happened was they were a good person. There's not a good fit for the sales org. That's all it was. So I'm just kind of, I'm slowly cleaning house.

And at the same time I'm doing, and I've recruited heavily before I'm doing eight to 10 new interviews a week. And I'm, yeah, cause they've been missing a number for years. Right. So I'm like, I need to, so day one, like I'm analyzing, I'm already starting to recruit. Like I already knew. Cause I knew how long it takes to build a pipeline up. I'm getting recruiters in place. And I started to like, you know, slowly get people out and I'm starting to bring people in. Right. So like that first quarter, we ended up doing like 113% to our number, which had never been done in like, in like, in like, in like years. They're like, Oh my God, what are you doing? Right. Now, granted, I also took over some deals as well.

And plus there was deals from my own pipeline that I basically handed to my territory that we pushed to close to help with that. But it was part of the long game. Right. Cause I started to clean house a little bit and put the right things into place. Right. But it was a, it was a kind of a transition over time because I, I've done terms before. It's like, how can I keep the boat from rocking too much while getting the wrong people off, get the right people on. Right. Now for sure. I've got some people probably a little bit too long. Right. Cause I was trying to reduce turnover down. Right. Drastically. We went from like 50% turnover to 0% my first year. Wow. Which zero is actually not good, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah. I probably should. I probably should have like, I, there was like some desperation of like, I'm like, I know this guy delivers a certain number. He's not a good coach for a long term. He's not doing too much damage. I need to keep his team. They kind of ease my number. Yeah. Cause we have shareholders at the end of the day. I still need to deliver. All right. So that's kind of how the transition went. Well, man. And, and I, you know, and even when you clean house that fast too, like no matter how you do it, it, the, the rest of the teams look them over their shoulder. Oh, it sets a tone. Yeah. Totally sets a tone. Yeah. So, so with that, let's get into the kind of the, the topic that we, we, we were anchoring on anchoring on here, which is feedback, right?

Because as you were going, you know, through this, you obviously had to give some pretty direct feedback, pretty like hard conversations. And I just think right now, I've always been somebody who sought out feedback, who like, I love it when you give me direct feedback, no matter how bad it might hurt. Right. Cause like, all right. Yep. Cause I can get better here. And I always found that like, if I'm ever defensive about something, it's usually cause it's right. They're right. You know what I mean? Like, cause if you were like, John, you're a fucking raging asshole, you're not authentic. And you know, you try to screw everybody over. Like, I'd be like, uh, go fuck yourself. Like I, like, I'm not even going to blink on that one.

But if you're like, Hey John, you have, you know, you have a challenge with accountability and you really need to hold yourself. I'd be like, and if I got defensive on that, it probably goes like, fucking no, that's my problem. So for me, and sounds like you, like we look for it. Right. And I think there's, there's the top performers always. Like I use Brady as the perfect, you know, Tom Brady is a great example. Like he was the greatest of all time. I'm not even having that conversation with anybody anymore. Right. Patrick Mahomes has cheated his way through the referees. That's been proven. Fuck him. Anyways. Um, but he's like, he wants to be coached. He's like, coach me, give me feedback.

Cause I got to get better here. I, I feel like we're in, and I, you know, I've done some interviews. I've talked to frontline managers and the, the, the feedback, the acceptance of feedback right now is, is limited. And it, and it, and, and it feels like an attack on a lot, like, you know, a lot of these kids and I'm going to be, you know, old man John here, but a lot of these kids feel like, Oh, I'm being personally attacked about this. And so how do you coach people to coach people and walk that fine line of giving direct feedback in a way that they'll accept, right? Because I, because you could give the most direct feedback, but right now the subjective component is the rep thinks, Oh, my boss doesn't like me.

So because I don't think my boss likes me, all this feedback to me is, is, is bullshit. And now I'm going to go rat it out to HR cause I'm pissed now. And now the manager who gave the feedback is sitting in five meetings with HR explaining why they gave direct feedback to a reps hitting 30% of quota. And like, why the fuck am I here? So, so the manager then kind of throws their hands up and says, uh, you know what? Yeah, Marcus, you're doing great. You know, good job, man. 30%. Hey, that's better than 25%. And that doesn't do anybody any favors. I go by, you know, Jack Welsh. I worked for him for a couple of months with his radical candor and his, you know, when he was getting his online MBA program off the ground and everybody gave him shit for being neutron Jack and always, you know, top grading and always firing the bottom 10%.

But he said, look, I don't, cause I asked him about that. I'm like, dude, everybody thinks you're like a fucking, like you don't always have to fire. He goes, look, let me paint this picture for you. What do you think's worse? What do you think's meaner having a direct conversation with somebody? Well, look, he started with the first one. Say you, you got to give some direct, good, you know, strong feedback to somebody, but you're afraid to. So you give them average feedback, right? You just don't want to deal with it. So, you know, year over year, performance, review after performance, you're giving average feedback, maybe a little constructive criticism, right? Then all of a sudden the economy tanks or we got to do layoffs and whatever.

And everybody knows that layoffs start from the bottom up, right? Like they just, okay, the shitty performers are going to get all the way up. So now that person gets laid off. And now, so for two, three, four, five years, you've been telling them that they're pretty good at their job. And now they have this, this inferiority complex, basically like, wait a minute. I thought I was good at my job. Now what? Versus coming to you and you even said it, Marcus, you don't suck in general, but you suck at this. And so I'm going to let you go figure out what you're great at. Cause I think, I think you can be great at something else. This just isn't it. And you did it by moving people in the organization and whatever it is.

And that, and that to me is being from Boston, being direct, like, fuck yes. I want that. Right. Cause I want somebody to tell me I suck even if I think of this, but now I feel like we're not in a world that that is, that that's tolerated. So what is your approach to people out there listening of how to provide direct feedback without the emotional component to it and shading it? So I think the, the first big challenge I see a lot of times for law leaders trying to get feedback is the trust isn't there. Like when the trust isn't there, you're not going to receive it. If you can like, well, I know, well, of course that's, that's not me. You're, you're just being a jackass. I don't trust you, et cetera.

All right. So if we, if we tackle at its very core, that's the first piece. And I think the mistake a lot of managers make is the trust level is not there. They don't feel psychologically safe. But then second, on top of that, it's usually very reactive. It's always reactive. And it's, it's like, it's a build of all these things. And then finally there's a conversation and they're like, you haven't said anything for the last six months. And now you'd say, you know, I'm a bad rep. What are you talking about? That's like the performance review, right? Like the worst thing, if, if a rep goes into a performance review and is surprised about anything, you're an asshole manager. 100%. 100%. So one of the things, you know, that I do that's really helped me over the years is when I take over a team or if I'm hiring someone new, the very first thing you do is an individual development plan.

So it's really an, it's a physical document that they, they type in, they fill out, they write in, what are their big personal goals? So not their company goals, what's their personal goals? So they say, I want to, I want to buy a new house and here's why I want to retire my spouse, you know, I want to send my kids to private school, whatever it's going to be. But also on there, it's like, you know, how best do you like to be led? So then you really think, where does that mean? So then you kind of fill it out. But also another question is how best do you like to receive feedback? And my goal here is, it's not that they fill all the answers, they type in what they believe is in there. And then we sit down, we have an IDP meeting and we talk about it and use of the feedback like, Hey, that's an interesting question.

No one's ever asked me that, you know, like, I guess, you know, you know, I like to hear feedback. They all, they all kind of say that I'm like, totally get that. Now I'm a pretty direct guy and that can be offensive for some people. So how best do you like to receive feedback? Do you like it direct? Do you need a little bit of build up first? And how can I best give you feedback in a way you can be most open to receiving it? So what's happening is in literally week one, I'm already planting the seed that I'm going to coach and guide you and help you get your personal goals you want to get to and why it's important to you, but I'm hopefully going to do it in a way that you ideally like. Cause some people say, yeah, actually, you know what?

You can tell it to me straight and tell it to my peers. I actually like that because my peers here, it actually makes me like, you know, actually do it. So it's, it's interesting what you hear. So that's the first step is like, we start with that. So we're already planting the seeds of trust from there. All right. And then as, as a leader, what I've always done as well is I'm consistently giving feedback all throughout, but I'm not just giving feedback to change a behavior. It's also feedback to encourage what I want to see continue to happen. So for instance, you have a brand new hire and you say, I want you to prepare a list of your tier one accounts. I want you to do a little bit of research.

So come Monday for the two hour call block, I want you to be ready to go. And then on Monday, when you inspect what you expect and they did a great job with that. Hey, John, I just want to tell you, this is the best I've ever seen someone prepare for this list. How did you go about doing that? Well, you know, I, uh, I used Apollo, I use LinkedIn, I use perplexity. I did this, this, and this. That's amazing. Great job with that. So I'm recognizing that behavior. Okay. So I'm not just, I'm not doing some sandwich technique. I'm recognizing behavior where I already want to see it. Right. So what happens is it's trust is like a, it's like a bank account. These are little deposits I'm making up front.

So when I do withdrawal, I've earned the right to give them a withdrawal because already built up. All right. So that's the first piece. So it has to be consistent because consistency is what compounds the time and they trust your time. You can talk a big game all you want, but if you're inconsistent with it, it doesn't really matter. So number one, you'd be really consistent with that. Now, the second piece is when you actually give them the feedback. And I got this feedback, you know, a long time ago and it's been great, which is a boss told me, Marcus, when you give feedback to anybody, think of the triple T's. What's your tact? What's your tone? What's your timing? What's your tack? What's your tone?

What's your timing? And that's been really, really impactful. And then I also bridge in the concept from seven habits of highly effective people seek to understand first. So let's just say, for example, you see an undesirable behavior out of your employee, right? So I'll give you an example. I had a brand new hire and she was older than me at the time. Like she was probably like 15 years older than me, brand new. I'll excuse me, an amazing hire, you know, for first day to our first day. And I'm a stickler for like time and stuff like that. She's late. Okay. I don't call her out in front of everybody because I made that mistake before. So later I pull her aside and say, hey, Lisa, you know, can we have a quick chat?

She's kind of like, oh God, I could tell. And I said, hey, um, you know, I noticed today that, you know, I'm being stuck. I don't know her style enough. We hadn't done the IDP. It's not like, I'm like, I have to dress this. I don't like things to build up. So I'm on, I'm like, can you help me understand? Like, you know, uh, what happened this morning? I'm trying to say, is she even aware that is it awareness thing? And she's like, yeah, I know. You know, I was, I was late today. I'm like, totally get that. Can you help me understand what happened? So I'm just seeking to understand my tone is stuck. I'm trying to, I'm trying to get, she's like, well, you know, it's no excuse. Like, you know, I, I really just didn't anticipate the morning traffic crossing the bridge over here.

Like it's, it's back to traffic. I just had no idea. I actually, I'm really embarrassed about this. I'm like, okay, totally get that. So moving forward, I mean, what are you probably going to do? Cause obviously the traffic's not going to change. And she's like, I mean, move forward. I'm just going to leave 30 minutes early. I'm like, okay, cool. Awesome. Perfect. Just want to make sure. And she's like, good. That's it. And that was the last time we had a conversation. Later that week, she pulled me aside and she's like, I just want to tell you. That was really interesting what you did. I'm like, well, what was that? She was like, I already forgot that conversation. She's like, you know, you know, on Monday I was late and I've had bosses that's happening and they just ream me day one.

They're just telling me, make me feel small and feel terrible. You actually pulled me aside and you just sought to understand and I completely got it and I'll never be late. I just want to tell you, I really appreciate you doing that. So that was a good example. Cause like, you know, that we didn't have the trust team quite there yet, but my approach it was, I was just gauging it consistently, right? I was gauging the situation and adjusting accordingly. But when you think about tough conversation, tact, tone, and timing, sometimes the timing has to be a little bit later because of the situation or how I need to adjust my tone or the tact or how I do it because I want to, I need to make sure they internalize the message.

It's not just giving feedback to give feedback, it's how can I give feedback that's going to change your behavior for the better. That's the key, right? Is, is, and I think you, when you talked earlier, I think it goes back to also expectation setting, right? Right. Like I'm not expecting bad feedback and I get it. I'm going to be defensive about it. 100%. You know, and even if I'm late, you know, cause that's, cause I have a pet peeve about being late. I expect you to be on time. And when you're not like, I get pretty fucking pissed because I just think all you have to do. And by the way, I don't care that you're late. I care that you didn't text me 10 minutes earlier to tell me that you were going to be late.

That's like that. And look, we all fuck up. We all oversleep. We all do this, but don't bullshit a bullshitter here. And so, but, but again, I've learned in my career where it's like, I'm all pissed off. And I'm like, that's one of my fucking things are, and it's like, well, yeah, my kid was sick. My, this was sick. It's the same thing actually, when I do it, and you and I both coach on outbound and prospecting. And it's amazing to me how, how pissed off people get reps get when clients don't respond to them after certain things, right? It's like, what the fuck? Like, why haven't you, you know, and you can watch, if you watch their emails, they get progressively more aggressive, like why, you know, ghosting and all that other stuff.

And I tell people, I go, look on, on the, on the cold call side of the house, first of all, that's not their problem. That's yours. Okay. But when somebody engages with you and you have a good conversation and there's a next step and I tell reps, I'm like, look, I beg you right now to lead with empathy. That's it. Because maybe before whatever, like, but now how fucked up things are out there right now, you have no idea what people are going through. And I vividly remember being like really annoyed at a client one time for ghosting me in a contract that I was expecting to come in. And I'm like, dude, what the fuck? And I ripped him apart on this email as like professional courtesy and everything else.

And he literally was like, John, sorry, my daughter's been in the hospital for the past week. And that, I mean, that like, when I say that punched me in the gut so hard, I felt it. You know what I mean? I was like, oh, and this was before I even had a daughter and I was just like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. John, you're not the most important person on the fucking planet. Like, I think you need to tone this down a little bit. And so now every single time if somebody goes to me, I literally say, hey, Marcus, man, I haven't heard from you in a little while. I really hope everything's okay. You know? And so I lead there and say, and, you know, you had said timelines, priorities, those type of things.

Let me know if this is in jeopardy or not because whatever you're going through and because I just want to know how to communicate with you more effectively moving forward. That approach, that empathetic, whatever has gotten me at 10 times higher response rate than being like professional courtesy. What the fuck? Why didn't you get back to me? Type of shit. 100%. Yeah. And I mean, I've said it before. I think life is about expectation setting. Oh, 100%. You know, I think it's like, you know, like you were in copy sales. So you probably also did door to door, right? Oh yeah. How many times would you walk in and the gatekeeper is like just super rude and super unhappy, right? Yeah. And it used to really bother me.

I'd be like, oh my God, they're such a jerk. What a bitch, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But like, and then like, you know, I started to reframe the questions. I'm like, well, think about it for a second. Okay. Majority of people that call in are probably salespeople who are not great. Customer complaints. They're one of the lowest roles. They're just constantly busy and they never got to take breaks. Yeah. I probably wouldn't be happy in that job either. So what if I walked in and maybe if I could be the best part of their day, be the most enjoyable conversation, maybe that'll make that easier for me. And that shit for me personally was like, wow, I'm going to go in now and be like the best possible light of a person's day.

Yeah. I posted something recently. I saw this quote that I thought was really interesting. It's judgment. We all judge, right? And we all think that everybody's thinking about us, right? And I see this in my daughter, right? 14 years old. She's like, oh my God, they're talking about my sweet daughter. They're not talking about you. They're thinking that you're talking about them, right? And what you're doing there is actually you're actually insulting the person because you're putting this perception that they are a negative person and thinking negative about you. So you not only are you taking that from like internally, which you can't control in any way, shape or form, and you shouldn't anyways, but you're actually assuming bad intent from that person because you're, and I'm like, and so you just assume good intent, right?

Like assume somebody is not trying to screw you over. Assume somebody is having a shitty day because they've been beat up by everybody else. And it's not personal because 99% of the time it ain't. Right. And I think that's where a lot of more people have to have that mentality these days or else. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's just going to keep getting worse. Oh yeah. Well, it's like the, um, that's why I think stoicism is so powerful. One of the most powerful stoic principles is nothing has any meaning except for the meaning you give it. So if you're like, that's just a thing that happened that has zero meaning. Right. Like, I mean, if you think about it, it's kind of like, you know, like, and this applies to even the most like drastic situations, right?

Like if you think, if you, you know, if today, if like, you know, if our kids passed away, obviously we'd be devastated. Right. But you go back and say a thousand years and you can't pass away. Like that was kind of what happens. You're like, it's, it's a gamble because you're just trying to survive. Right. Like it was just, the meaning becomes very, it's the same thing, but time has shifted the meaning. So I think, you know, for people listening out there, it's like, Hey, in the situation you're in, how can you create zero meaning out of a situation or create a positive meaning for yourself? And you can learn far more from that. Love that, man. So what's got you fired up moving forward here?

I mean, we're in this weird, weird spot right now, at least from my standpoint, I, I mean, I graduated 98. I've seen, I, you know, I saw the crash in 2000, I saw 2007. I taught that, you know, I fell apart in 2023 for me, COVID and all this other stuff. But this, this feels different. And this, this AI stuff feels different. And I think there's the, the optimistic and the pessimistic side of the house on this one, right? The Terminator, we're all going to be fucking screwed or like, Hey, we're going to live in this utopia world. And I just believe we're all in a, in a legacy system, right? Whether it's a legacy sales system, a legacy environments, whatever. And we're transitioning, but nobody knows what the future is.

So two things. One is what are you, what are you excited about? And two is how are you helping the people that you coach and train prepare for a future that is unknown? What a great question. And I think at the end of the day, you and I, we can't predict the future. Otherwise it'd be very different. Our bank accounts probably look very, very different. Yeah. I wouldn't be here right now. I'd be frigging, I wouldn't even be close to do it. I actually, I like the podcast, so I'd probably still be doing the podcast, but I'd probably do nothing else. I might just disappear. You might never hear from me ever again. So when I think about it, it's like, okay, cool. So all we can really bet on is really in our attitudes and our actions.

That's really it, right? And we can make strategic bets. So for instance, we know AI is here to stay and we don't know the future. It for sure could be a Terminator situation. It could be a utopian situation. Again, we don't really know. All I know is, hey, how can we go about, how can we go about having a growth mindset towards it? Right? Because on the opposite, you have a fixed mindset, which is like, you know, it's doom and gloom. Oh my gosh, whatever, you know, we're screwed. Or you get a growth mindset. How can I just embrace it as a mental model? So, and it's interesting because I asked some friends like, oh, I'm going to try to build my own AI. I'm like, you could, that's amazing. But can you beat open AI?

Are you going to be able to beat Google with what you have to build? Like, I'm just saying, do you have the resources, the talent, the network to get to that point? You can't, it's up to you if you want to do that. But I'm like, instead I'm going to, I'm just going to leverage a tool to help me in any way I can. So, you know, as different tools come out, I think the best way we can become is just be like scientists with it. Is literally experiment and toy and really embrace it. You know, so for instance, for, you know, a lot of my clients, like we're just leveraging the ones that's already available, whether it's chat GPT or Claude. And it's like using, hey, how can we make our jobs easier, better, more efficient?

Whether it's from account research to making an email more concise to doing anything that you want to do. And as new tools come out, you learn about new use cases, try it yourself. Don't just say that's not going to work. Say, hey, you know, that's a really interesting concept. How can I utilize this to make it easier and better for myself? And when you start thinking that way, it doesn't really matter what the future holds because then, you know, fast for two years, if the roles completely shift, you're thinking, hey, how can I adapt myself to get to this point? While most people are going to be stuck in the fixed mindset. And I believe most people are stuck in the fixed mindset. So if you want to get ahead, it's not about trying to create the next AI, unless you happen to be a genius, which would be amazing.

If you're like me, it's a very average dude who works really hard. Just be curious. Just be curious. I couldn't believe it. Have fun. Learn. Try stuff out. Invest on your own. If your company doesn't pay, go out and pay for Claude. Pay for this. Just test it and see what you like. And you might build something cool with it. Worst case, you learn a new way of thinking that's going to help you down the road. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that curiosity and agility and adaptability, those are the skills of the future. I mean, when I coach my corporate clients, I encourage them. I'm like, turn your sales org into a sales lab. And every Friday, ideally once a week, pizza, beer, Friday afternoon, get the whole GTM crew together here and break up into teams like three to five people, right?

And put the young reps in with the senior reps in. So business acumen versus tech savviness. Throw a couple of SEs in there for prompting and stuff like that. Throw the marketers in there. And then kind of like engineers, right? You know how engineers have hackathons? They pick something they nerd out on it for a little while. Well, I think we should do the same in sales now. It's like pick any aspect of the sales process. I don't give a fuck what it is. And give a framework so it's not just all over the place. Be like, hey, here's the problem we're trying to solve or here's the thing we're trying to make more efficient, whatever it is. Whoever in the next hour can figure out a better solution than what we're doing now wins.

And so then they nerd out on it for a little while. They collaborate, they learn, right? Whatever. And then everybody presents with their solutions. And at the end, we all vote to say, okay, well, which one do we like best? Great. Like that one. Cool. Let's implement that next week and see if it works. And then iterate and iterate and iterate and keep doing that because now you're using the bottom up approach to decision make. Cause I don't think anybody, I don't, I don't know about you, but I don't know any executive right now, top down about making decisions specifically related to AI. I think that's a fool's therein because by the time you identify the problem, you evaluate vendors, you make the decision, you're six to nine months out of any implementation.

And I don't know about you. I have no fucking idea what's going to be six months from now. So getting them to build into it is the way that you gotta, you gotta shift that mentality. And I think there's two key points, right? I think number one is as a leader, you have to create the environment for people to do it. So that's a perfect example, the sales AI-a-thon, if you will. I think also number two, it's also leading from the front and showing them, Hey, what you're testing out as well. If for example, it's like, let's just say you're not using an AI transcription tool or for your call recorders, right? You know, for your calls, you get one and they say, Hey, listen, take a look at this in your next meeting.

Look at what I did. I actually took the call. I took the transcription. I created a really simple prompt. It says, Hey, we use medic at our company. We use medic rate my call, you know, against medic. And how can I, you know, how can we do a better job next time? And what are the gaps? And what should I do next to drive up my win rate? Also give me a probability and show them so that they see you also doing it. Right. And you'll learn some things. It'll make you better. It'll get you thinking right. And then they'll see it to them. And you'll have some people that are going to take off of that. Right. And they're going to do it too. But you had to create that culture, then lead from the front as being a four forward thinking versus sitting back and kind of hoping the teams in a, you know, bring some idea to your table, to the table and going back to controlling it a little bit too, because everybody's fucking around with it in some way, shape or form.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Some reps are going deep into it. Others are kind of like whatever. So it's, it's, and it's all over and nobody knows how like very few reps know, even especially the senior ones, even what to ask, which is, which blows me away with AI, because all I say is just fucking, just say, I don't know what to ask. What should I be asking? But regardless, giving them a structure to it, whether it's, and I tell reps like senior reps, I'm like, cause they're like, there's so many things I go, look, put 30 minutes a day on your calendar. And then be like either at lunch or in the morning is your morning routine, 30 minutes. And that's your fuck around with AI 30 minutes. Right.

But, but limited to 30 minutes. So you don't, cause I, I don't know about you, man. I've like all of a sudden I wake up at three o'clock in the morning and I don't mean like physically wake up. I mean, I like, I kind of get out of the zone. I'm like, holy shit, I've been drowning in AI for the past five hours here and I haven't really done anything. So you do need to control it a little bit, but man, it is such a superpower. If you're, if going back to what you said is if you're curious, if you give a shit, if you want to learn, but if you're looking at it for the answer, I think you're, you're just screaming to be replaced. Well, I think what's really interesting is the like, and I think those who start to internalize it, how can I use it in my, my day-to-day life?

Right. Like, you know, for, for really like for anything, you know, like, you know, for instance, like I'll give you an example. Cause I use it all the time for like really anything and everything. It's like, I want, I'm going to switch like a solo 401k providers. I'm thinking in my head, I'm like, Oh, it's going to be a whole thing. It's like all these steps. So I'm like, I'm like, you know, Hey Claude, like what's the simplest and easy way to transfer over my 401k? And what should I be on the lookout for? Very simple plan. I'm like, that makes sense. Okay. Am I, am I missing, are we missing anything here? But here's the thing, it's not just taking that data. I'm thinking like logic, critical thinking.

I'm like, does this actually make sense? Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. Like I'm going to plot, I'm going to think about, I'm like, okay, actually this doesn't seem to make sense in this step. Like, are you sure? Well, actually now as you ask, you should actually do this way. I'm like, okay, cool. But we're using it as a tool and we're being curious with it. Right. And it's doing it now versus waiting two, three years later. So we can hopefully be the forerunner of whatever AI is at the table at that point. And I think that's the best way to learn this stuff is to, is to be curious, but also like create, right. Create your own GPT, create like, I just, right before we were on this phone, I, my daughters have some, she has some stomach issues and she, it's been weird.

She's starting like, and I, and we can't figure it out. And you know, doctor, I got to wait a week to schedule a fucking appointment and all this other shit. And so I created a GPT that I want you to be the best nutritionist, the best doctor for gut issues. Um, I, you know, I want to create it for my daughter. She's going to input her food and she, I need you to tell her like, she's kicked out this killer ass prompt, took that, put it over there, tweaked it up a little bit. And now I got an app for my daughter that all I want her to do is whenever she eats something, just say, this is what I ate. And then tell her, you know, an hour later, how do I feel? And then we're going to distill this down into a diet that she can use.

And no doctor would ever be able to do that in a timely fashion. A hundred percent. And so like going through the process of being curious, then saying, okay, how do I do this? Teaches you more about this stuff than 95% of the planet. And I think you had to just like make it part of your life. Like, and I, you're going to appreciate it. Cause you know, obviously you got kids and sort of why, but like, you know, I like one kid and you know, he's, he's eight now, but for last couple of years, once AI started getting kind of this thing, I've been shown how to use AI. So like, we'll go and we'll write whole stories. Like, I'll like, like act as a world-class storyteller. I'm like, you know, make the main character Roman Chan.

He's half Persian, half Chinese. He loves magic tricks. He loves chess. And like, I'll give all these details about his life and like, write me a story in the super Mario brothers three storyline and have all the characters inside there, have a moral story be this. So we'll do these things together. Right. And then it'll create this like hilarious story, which is like finding that's something I would write, but he sees, he's like, Oh, and then he'll sit there and he'll reprompt it. Right. Cause he's like, Oh, add in this character. Cause he didn't do this. Add this in, change this, make this part funnier. Right. So I think we, if we start getting that mindset now, you know, that's going to be far better, but it's also how do you engage part of your life?

It's not going away. No, no. Embrace it and make it part of who you are. Yeah. And I, and I think what's more important now, I, quite frankly, I think IQ is over. I really do. It's it's already smarter than us. So like, so doubling down on EQ is, is, you know, all those liberal arts degrees that everybody, everybody used to make fun of, like, no, now those are coming back in vogue. Cause it's like, Oh, you know, sorry, coders, you're fucked. You know, sorry, lawyers, you're fucked. Hey, liberal arts, you get to understand sociology and how people work and psychology and all that stuff. Like you're going to be the winners moving forward. Cause human interaction, human connection, those types of things are what's going to matter more than anything.

I think moving forward. And I think one other thing to add to that as well, right? Is like, so if you have the EQ, if you also like all AQ, the adaptability quotient, right? So it's like, you're being able, you're able to adapt as the tool changes over time and what's available. Cause you know, it will get to the point where it's around us at all times. It's just a, it's like, it's like Jarvis and Ironman. That's how it is. Like whether it's a chip in our head or the phone in our hand or glasses, it will be honest, some way, shape, some way, shape or form. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome, man. Well, we could go down the rabbit hole of a Terminator, but let's, let's wrap this one up, Marcus. What are you working on?

What do you want people to know? I know you're going in on corporate these days, but, uh, talk to the, talk to the audience where you want them to show a hundred percent. Right. So it's a absolute pleasure. Right. So now we work directly with, you know, corporations and you usually that are between 25, 50 mil, at least 25 plus AEs. And we first do a diagnostic where we do a deep dive into their situation, analyze all their sales that interview, but your reps leaders, uh, we analyze all their data. I would take a look at all the conversations as well, plus call recordings. And we uncover like the biggest leaks in the organization. So we actually work on fixing that first, right? So instead of coming into this training, we're figuring out, Hey, what's the biggest gaps and how can actually help you with the gaps when you do it internally or externally?

And what's really interesting is, Oh, you know, you half the time or half the challenges are actually internal based. You got to fix first, right? Before we can actually influence on the back and stuff too, but it's been a lot of fun. So hit me up on LinkedIn or head to eventlinkconsulting.com to learn, I'll learn more about it. Hey, just out of curious, like how many people are tolerant to go through that? Right. Cause there's the quick fix training and then there's the way to do it right, which is assess, plan, execute. But so many people in this space are quick fix. I just need some training to train my team. So how often do you find people being like, ah, that sounds great, Marcus, but no fucking way we're going to do that.

I just need something. It depends on how sharp the leader is to be quite frank. Of course. Yeah. Right. So like the really sharp leaders, they understand like a good doctor diagnosis first and they're like a hundred percent. This is what we have to do first. Um, and there's, and there's, there's some for sure. They're like, we want the quick fix. We had some budget to burn, you know, and that's kind of like a training, et cetera. Right. Which is like, we, we tried to like not do those. Right. Because it's like, we know long-term wise, they won't get the results they actually want, you know, cause they're looking for an SKO or a speaking thing. You know, it's like, okay, now if we can try to piggyback where we do that first to build, if that's like, if that's the entry offer to build trust with them that we can do is like maybe a bigger term engagement that has happened to, which has been cool.

Right. But if we can do a diagnostic first, solve the right core issues from the get go, that can just save them like literally dividends on the back end, because obviously we're selling systemic issues versus putting a bandaid on stuff that, you know, it's not going to be held accountable, you know, not going to put in place long-term wise because they have bad managers. Yeah. That's, that's the problem. My friend is these days that, uh, I don't know if, you know, too many people are willing to put in the work, the real work of what it takes to kind of like fix that foundation before they build on top of it. And it's a house of cards. Right. So that's exactly. We see it far too often, unfortunately.

I know. I know. I, there's a couple of clients that I'm working with right now that I'm just like, you know, I'm like forcing myself on them to do the reinforcement. I'm for, I'm like, I'm dumbing it down to the point where I can, I'm like, look, all you have to do is take this sequence that I created based on this and put it into outreach or put it into sales loft, have reps identify 20 accounts that they want to go after and click a button. Like literally that's all I need you to do. And the amount of pushback I get from it is off the charts. It's like, well, you know, it's a really, really busy quarter. And I'm like, I'm, this is doing your fucking job. Like, how do I, and it's the whole proverbial short-term thinker, right?

Cause it's like, they're not thinking of 2026 in their pipeline now. Right. Like they're just thinking like right now, which is like, yeah, it's fine. But you know, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's 180, 360 day sales cycle for you guys. So you have no, you don't have enough pipeline in 2026. Like, what are you gonna do? You're, you're, you're robbing your future self by not putting these things in place now. All right. Well, let's keep fighting the good fight, my friend, for the people who care, right? That's it. Exactly. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on, man. It was been great to chat with you and let's make sure that we connect here sometime soon outside of, uh, I don't know if I'm doing the big conferences this year.

I think I'm a little tapped out on the big boys. Um, but hopefully we can find some cool stuff. Wait, actually, where are you based out of again? Portland, Oregon. I'm, you're still there. Yep. You're still there. Cool. Well, yeah. Let me know if you're ever traveling on the East coast. I do a, I actually, New York, I do a couple of things back and forth now a few times. So if you're ever in New York, but let's, uh, let's make sure that we stay connected again. Always a pleasure. Always my friend, everybody. Hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I say it all at the end, all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Cause no matter how bad your day's going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now.

So thank you very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day, just like you go to jbarrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today.

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