The business coach who helped me define my WHY with Jonathan Domsky

Get really clear on what your core values are. State your number one core value and ask, as applied to the challenge of sales, what is the fullest, most satisfying expression of my number one core value? Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And this is a special episode because this guest is someone who has had a profound personal impact on me, not just in business actually, but in life. Jonathan Donski, he was my coach during really challenging times. Right after I lost my dad and my business was starting to fall apart and I was in one of those phases where I felt like I was stuck in neutral and externally things were moving, right?

But internally I was spinning and he really helped me recenter and reconnect on my core values and rediscovering my why at a time when I absolutely desperately needed it. And so we talked about that a lot and the importance of why and values and how to apply them and really what it did for me from a lens standpoint and some of the challenges I went through accepting that what I thought my values were weren't really what they were and how I was living wasn't really reflecting them as well. He's a business and life coach for entrepreneurs and what makes him really really different is that he doesn't just help you set better goals. He helps you really untangle the internal knots that hold you back from being the kind of person you actually want to be and the life you want to live.

And so he's got a new business that he's doing really to help people unstick themselves, if you will. I think it's called Defy Gravity and Get Clarity. And I highly recommend anybody who is stuck right now trying to really figure out their way to take a look at what he's putting together here because he made a significant impact on my life. And I genuinely appreciate him for that. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did as this was almost like a free session for me with him. I got to ask him a lot of questions that I usually would ask him in my coaching sessions, but wanted everybody else to get a, just a glimpse of what he brings to the table. So hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Let's make it happen. Jonathan Domsky, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend. How are you? John, there's nowhere I'd rather be right now than with you. So I'm doing pretty great. I like it. Yeah, let's go, man. This is it. You're in my world now, my friend. I've been in your world for quite a while doing the coaching with you. And so for, for context, everyone who's listening here, Jonathan is actually my business coach and, and helped me get through some rather interesting and challenging times in my career. You know, after my dad passed away and my business fell apart and all that fun stuff. And we'll get into all of that, but it's a, it's a pleasure to have you on my friend.

Cause I enjoy talking to you when it, when it's about me and now it's going to be about you. So let's, let's get into it, Jonathan. Like we're, we'll get into a lot of the stuff that, you know, the psychology around things. We're going to get into values. We're going to need into, you know, sales and, and those types of things too. But I always love learning where you come from. So, you know, and when I say that, I mean the stuff that we can't learn on LinkedIn and, you know, you're, where'd you get the itch to be a solopreneur or an entrepreneur, if you will, where'd you get the itch for the psychology around this stuff, parents growing up environment. So talk to us through kind of little Jonathan and where you're telling from.

Yeah. So I'll tell you my story, John. I grew up in Highland Park, Illinois, just north of Chicago and emotionally and physically unsafe home. And I learned from a very early age to observe the people around me and to articulate what they were thinking, what they were feeling often better than they could do themselves. It was great training for what I wound up doing for the week. When I was 18, went to University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, started out studying engineering, ended up getting degrees in economics and Chinese. And the week that I graduated from college, I was on a plane with a one-way ticket to China. This was 1994. I was expecting to have an adventure. That happened, certainly.

I was expecting to perfect my Chinese. That happened, too. I was not expecting that three weeks in, I'd meet the woman that I'd be married to for 29 years, but that's what happened. And we were used to spending all of our time together, 23 and a half plus hours a day. And when I came back to the U.S. after a year and a half, when she came to the U.S. for the first time, we wanted to really keep spending our time together. We wanted to really go back and forth to China. And it just seemed like it'd be really hard to do that with two weeks of vacation a year and a nine-to-five job. So we decided to become entrepreneurs. I had no background in business. Both my parents are professionals. 100% of their friends are professionals.

And I was a junior in college before I knew that there were a million things to do in this world and that being a doctor and lawyer were only two of them. But as you know, I'm a learner, read over 3,000 books. So I just talked to anybody who had anything to share with me and became an entrepreneur. And that was the beginning of my story. Interesting. So let's back up for a second to Chinese. Why Chinese? Where'd that bug come from? Yeah. You know, it was very, I'm an accidental entrepreneur. I'm an accidental Chinese speaker. Okay. So like I said, I started out studying mechanical engineering at the University of Illinois. It's a very rigid program. When you study engineering at U of I, you study engineering at U of I.

That's when I brought our education. And I figured I could read on my own literature and philosophy and history and all that sort of stuff. I didn't know anything about Asia. I just thought it was cool. My first semester, I took a course in East Asian literature. And the professor's specialty was Tang Dynasty poetry. And that's what we spent half the class on. And I just really loved it. So I'm like, why not do Chinese? Now I just fell in love with it. Okay, cool. So the entrepreneurial track. Was the first business the Cadorable? Yeah, Cadorable. If you've ever seen umbrellas or rain boots that look like frogs and ladybugs and stuff like that, that's us. My partner in the business, she is an artist.

She was the creative and just the creative genius really that powered the company. She was in charge of product development production. I was in charge of operations and marketing. And everything that I do, even my coaching, it comes from an operator's mindset. Like, what's the process? You know, a lot of people, especially every sales manager I ever had, are trying to document what the processes were. And they said, oh, Jonathan, it's really more art than science. And I'm sure there's an element of that. But no, art just means that you haven't been able to articulate what the process is. And what I do is I turn these complex things into simple understand, easy to apply processes. Well, and I always found that interesting because I, you know, we've had this conversation before between, you know, of art and science.

And I actually think science, you know, art sales should be more of a science. If you break down every artist though, there is a process to it. You know, Picasso and all the one, all the famous artists, you break it down and they learned a process to get to where they are. It's very few people that just pick up a paintbrush and can paint some insane thing. They have to learn the strokes, the colors, the coordination. So what do you think the perception, why do you think there's such a perception of art in business and sales when it truly is the ones I know? You can break down their process. Oh, absolutely. And it's pretty repeatable. Yeah. It's just what's conscious and what's not. And it's not just about art.

You know, I am naturally great with data analysis. Like I'm really good at Excel. And I used to frustrate tremendously. This is an operations manager because she would work for like three hours on something and I would look at it for like 10 seconds and I would say like, oh, there's an error there. And she's like, how did you do that? And I'm like, well, like, I don't know what the right answer is, but I sure know that's wrong. And for me, it was automatic. There was this like this instantaneous one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 process that was going on in the back of my mind. And I had to think really hard, how could I train her? Like, what are the actual steps that I'm going through to be able to find that?

And I was able to draw that out, turn it into an SOP. My friends tease me that SOP is my love language, centered operating procedures. And I would teach her how to do it. Everything that, you know, a salesperson, a data analyst, an artist says is art, that there's no process. It just means that there's a subconscious process that they're not aware of. Yeah. And I think breaking that perception is, is there a thing you do in your, in your coaching to help break that perception of solopreneurs, entrepreneurs who just believe that it's their special sauce. It's what makes them special. Is there, is there a process you go through to help them understand the process that they go through? Yeah. Well, the first thing is giving an incentive.

Like why? Cause it's feeds our egos, right? Like I'm this lone genius. I'm the only one who can do what I do. And that is the, it's beautiful. And that's why people pay you and all that sort of stuff, but it's the hallmark of an immature organization. And it's impossible to scale. If all of your intellectual property, all of your processes are just inside of your head and there's no one else who can replicate it. Um, everything I do, I take it out of my head, put it into a process, into a video course, into a worksheet that anyone who just has the basic skills of coaching can follow. Otherwise it's impossible to grow. There's only 24 hours in a day. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far.

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Now let's get back to the conversation. I think that's kind of the big challenge that, you know, I've always kind of said that I'm not the, I'm not the artist. I'm the one who can look at the art and translate it into science so the rest of us can do it. Um, and then figure out our art, right? Because if you have that foundation, then you can work on the nuances that I consider the art. Uh, but it is a, it is an ego thing in a lot of ways. It's like, I will say it is challenging too, because at least in, in our world, my world, you know, I've seen sales trainers and coaches fail miserably building my, by the way, myself included, obviously. Yeah. Um, where, you know, I built a process, I built a structure and, and, and I built a brand.

And then when I had other people deliver it, it was good. It just wasn't me. My, my mentor, Jeff Hoffman, same thing. Like, I think I was the only one who could take over his accounts. And even when I took them over, they still wanted Jeff. So in the professional services world, how do you address that from a scale standpoint? Cause I've given up quite frankly, I am, I'm translating my process to other people, but not to other trainers to train my process. It's a really important point, John. And it's shared by so many people. You know, a lot of us, we start a business and we drink the Kool-Aid and we say, yeah, I'm going to grow this to 10 million. I'm going to grow this to 50 million. I'm going to grow this to a hundred million dollars.

And if you, you know, you join these organizations, you read these books, they'll give you a blueprint on how to get there. And if you have a good product and you follow the blueprint, like you can get there. The, the lie, the, the fallacy, the, the problem for most people is that, um, most people are happiest when they have between three and seven plays and it feels like a family and it's fun and it's easy. And they have people they could delegate to so they could go on vacation, but they're not scaling it. As soon as you get above eight people, you've layers of management. You, once you get above 50 people, you don't know everybody's name anymore. For some people, that's the right path. And it's a, it's a thrilling ride for most people.

They'll never be happier than when they're just doing it with a couple other people who they trust and they love. And you go from being the star performer, you know, everybody meet John. You go from being the star performer. To be a manager and maybe you're not a star manager. It's a completely different skill set. That's not, one's not better or worse than the other. What's wrong with making a million dollars a year and just having no complexity and being able to do it all yourself. If you do want to, um, scale it, uh, there, there's ways to do it. But for someone who just wants to keep it small because they don't want the complexity, well, then it's just a question of business model. And, you know, you and I just talked about this the other day.

Do you want to be selling, um, your hours for dollars? Um, again, that could be quite lucrative, but good luck taking a vacation. Um, you know, God forbid you're ever injured or something like that. Um, but can you change the business model? Can you change it from one to one to one to one to many, um, uh, record yourself, uh, you know, just different ways of delivering materials, stuff like that. Yeah, that's a, that's, that's a, you know, when my first startup, I realized there's, there's really only two types of companies. There's growth companies and there's lifestyle companies. And the challenge is, is people who want to try to be both, right? You want to grow rapidly, but you also want to have the lifestyle.

And that's just not, as a startup, that's just not possible. I mean, maybe in the very unique scenarios, but for the most part, you either take all that profit and you put it in your back pocket and you live the lifestyle or you take that profit, stuff it back into the company and go. And that middle ground tends to tear a lot of people apart. Well, and how to decide, do you want a growth company? Do you want a lifestyle company that goes to values and purpose? What are you, what are you trying to accomplish? There's no objectively right answer. There's just sort of right answer for you. And it's like putting on an old coat, either fits or it doesn't. And if you put on the coat and it's too tight, shrink your arena.

I think you want a lifestyle business. We put on the coat and there's a lot of room, you know, search for a bigger arena for your business. Yeah. And I will get into values and why's because I think that's really important, but I want to get into kind of your coaching approach because you talk a lot about how you don't think entrepreneurs can grow their business until they grow themselves. Yeah. So what are some of the things that you see getting in the way of entrepreneurs as it comes to their own personal growth and how it relates to their company? Sure. So another one of these lies that we're all told is if I just read another book or if I just listen to another podcast or if I just hire another coach or whatever, it'll solve all my problems.

The problem with that is that what's in between where you are right now and where you want to go in growing your business is almost never just a piece of knowledge or even a skill. Smart, hardworking people so often just don't have the lives, don't have the businesses they're working so hard for. And there's five reasons why. You know, different reasons for different people, some lucky people of all five. But the first is they don't know who they are. They're not living their life. They're living someone else's idea of what their life should be. And John, who you are, it's a three-legged stool. The easiest, most accessible leg of that stool is how your life should be lived. But not how I think your life should be lived, not how John Burris thinks your life, well, exactly how John Burris thinks your life should be lived, but how your life should be lived based on your DNA and your experience and your beliefs and all this sort of stuff, how your life should be lived is your core values.

And when you live your life out of alignment with your core values, even if you're doing something that you're great at, even if you're doing something that you love, it's a slog. It's exhausting working against yourself. And at the end of the day, you'll know if you're working against your values because you feel guilty, you feel doubt. And at the end of the day, you have to relax with a beer or two or three or just flop in front of the TV. When you live your life in alignment with your core values, even if you have a high degree of intense activity, and you should, it's called a life of full engagement. It just feels effortless. It feels meaningful. It feels joyous. The next leg in that stool is why your life should be lived.

What's your purpose? And same thing when you live your life out of alignment with your purpose, even if you're doing what you love, even if you're doing what you're great at, it just feels empty. It's meaningless. I could pay you a lot of money doing something that you're great at, you know, taking a pile of dirt from over here and moving over there. You're not going to think that's an awesome job. When you live your life in alignment with your purpose, you're just like, yes, this is what life's supposed to be about. And you're how and you're why. They point the finger in the direction of your what, what were you born to do? That's the first bucket. Let's pause there for a second. Cause I, cause I want to ask about the why versus values.

I think values are almost universal when it comes to when you, when it's important to, to focus, to really get core to those core values. Like I did it with my daughter when she was 12. I think she was a little bit, like, she was a little bit scared of what this meant. She didn't know what they were, but we went through a little bit of the same process that you brought me through. And, and I think even though she didn't nail down her exact values, it got in her head about what values were all about. And I think once you understand that, then you understand why you react to your point. So negatively about certain things, so positively towards other things. So I think values, I always tell reps who are looking for a new job, for instance, right?

I'll say, Hey, have you gone through the value exercise? And they're like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, take a step back, go through the core value, really get centered on that. And then go look for those opportunities because then it'll just, it'll, it'll connect. But the why, right? The Simon Sinek why or whatever. I find that one to be a little bit interesting because I do, I've kind of come to the conclusion that I think there's a time and a place for it as far as a maturity level, like telling a, it's like telling a 15, 16 year old can follow your passion. Like that's the dumbest advice I'd ever, you'd ever hear, right? It's like, oh, well, what's your why when you're 15, 16, 20 years old?

Like you have no idea what your why is. So is that, is that a false narrative that I have for myself as far as that? Why, or is why something that you kind of have to evolve to before you can really be centered on it? So there's a, there's a lot here. And I want to talk about all three of these things, your, your, how your, why, and your, what your values, your, uh, your, your purpose, and then like what, what you were born for. Um, so these things do tend to form, uh, when you're young, uh, you know, before you're 10 years old. And even though it may be formed though, like 12 is a little early, um, unless, uh, um, uh, you know, unless your kid's like really has a high degree of self-awareness, but it's not early to have a why it's not early to have core values.

It's just early to be able to access to them. These things are hidden from us. It's why, you know, it's why you usually need a guide to help you with it. Well, it's still to find why, what, what, what does it mean to have a why, uh, your why is almost never going to be, you know, my why is to be a transformational business and like coach, you know, your, your why, that's not my why your, your why is not to be, you know, the best sales trainer. That's your what, that's what you were, um, you know, what you're born to do. And that takes time to figure out. You need to experience stuff. You need to know what it is that you like and what you don't like. Um, my favorite definition of purpose, and I just like it because it's so darn useful to being a guide towards living your life.

All these things we're talking about, like why waste your time on something like values because it's a guide for how to make decisions without guilt or doubt. Um, but my favorite definition of your purpose is the intersection of how you feel compelled to show up and contribute to the world because that's who you are. And you do that at home and you do it at work and you do it with your friends. Can't turn it off. The intersection of how you feel compelled to, um, show up and contribute with the impact that you seek that just makes life feel it's the way that it should be. My purpose is to untangle the clutter, obscuring our best, most authentic selves. And why would anyone want to do that? Like that's something I do all the time.

I do it with my son. I do it with my clients. That's what I do for a living. Untangle the clutter, obscuring your best, most authentic selves. So with that, we have a life that feels effortless, meaningful, and joyous because so says me, those are the measures of success worth having in life. Um, and that has a million applications. Now, as a 53 year old man, that's what I do for a living, but I always do like, like what I literally do for a living is I help untangle the clutter of securing people's best, most authentic selves. So they have a life and no business, um, that feels effortless meaningful and joyous. But before I did this for a living, I still had that same purpose. I had that purpose when I was 15 years old.

It was just applied in different contexts. Have you ever worked with somebody that they just couldn't break through, right? Like they, they were too stuck and, and, and what'd you like, can't, can every, I guess, can everybody be unstuck? The answer, the short answer is yes, everybody can be unstuck. What holds people back is not ability. It's not that you don't have a purpose. It's, uh, it's fear. Um, sometimes in the form of numbness, we could get numb to who are, who we are numb to our purpose, numb to our values. Um, but I would say to those people who are afraid though, it's so much harder doing what you're doing now than to do this to working against yourself, denying who you are. It's so much harder to do that than to do the work to free yourself, to chop off the barnacles that are obscuring who you really are.

I also say this, everybody, and I mean, everybody, John loves themselves, their true authentic self, the person who is fully in full alignment, in full alignment, living their core values, the person who's living their purpose, the person who's doing what they were born to do. Everybody loves that. In fact, most people love that person because we love authentic people. I mean, think about every famous, powerful, whatever person, like they're themselves. Like that's, that's what we like about them. What we often don't like or even hate is a collection of habits and scripts and, um, just mindsets that we've allowed ourselves to become that are a betrayal of who we really are. That's why I don't, I don't understand.

Like I talk a lot about authenticity being the ultimate superpower because it's something you can't, you can't attack, like small, stupid thing that's going on right now for me is like, I gotta, and thankfully over the years, I mean, I've, you know, like a lot of followers, all the fun stuff. I don't get very many trolls, like actual trolls, like people who are like picking on, you know, try to get into my content. And, and you know, I got one now it's, he's kind of adorable. Um, but, uh, but, uh, but people like, Oh, are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. And they're like, well, what do you mean? Like, he's really coming after you. I'm like, I have nothing to hide. Like I literally have nothing to hide.

Like, it's funny. He, he took like a picture of me smoking weed on, you know, and put it on LinkedIn. Um, I actually did that on LinkedIn. It was on 420. I go, I got three people and that was like, Hey, marijuana. It's, it's an actual, like, if you look at it from a benefit standpoint, it's better than alcohol and it helps people deal with mental health. Like, so I did it on LinkedIn and he's like, Oh, look at, he's a stoner. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to expose you as the guy who wears the same t-shirt every day. Yeah. It's like, no, no, don't. So I, I, I have, why do you think people are so in this, especially in our world of the Instagram and everything's perfect. And when you know, it's not, why are so few people living their authentic lives?

Yeah. Well, you know, there's a saying, the, um, you know, the opposite of courage is putting in, um, we're taught from a very early age not to stand out. You know, there's a, there's a famous study. I'm getting some of these numbers wrong, but, uh, um, there's a famous study, psychological study where a psychologist went to a nursery school class and, uh, said like, who here is really good at singing? And all the kids are like, Oh, me, me, me. They all, I want to sing. And like, who here is really good at dancing? And they're like me. And then the same psychologist went to the same class when they were in fourth grade. And that's the same class. Like who here is really good at singing? Nobody raises their hand.

Who here is really good at dancing? Nobody raises their hand. We're social creatures. And we have this deep, deep fear. It's, it's the fear of death. We, we fear, we fear that if we're going to stand out, we're going to be ostracized by the group. I mean, none of us could survive in the wild by ourselves. And it's the, that, the, you know, why is public speaking such a stereotypical, um, uh, scary thing? It's because you're going to meet the disapproval of the group and psychologically, of course, we will be outcast and we will die. That's what that fear is. The irony is that what people most value about you is who you are, like your unique God-given ability. Like that's what people love. But instead we deny ourselves and, um, try to fit in and it's boring and no one likes it and it's not effective.

It's so with that, what's kind of your favorite tool in your toolbox, if you will, to help people start to live that authentic life of theirs? Is, is there something that you use that is, that breaks through that barrier more? Is it the why? Is it the values? Is it, what is it? So I almost always start with core values. There's a quote that in order core values, purpose, genius. Those are, those are, um, for most clients where I start and why do that? And for sell audience speaking directly now, especially to solopreneurs who sell themselves, you know, if you're a coach, if you're a therapist, if you're a sales trainer, if you're, if you're someone who you're selling what yourself, so many people who are in this business, they hate selling.

And the reason why they hate selling is because they have this, I mean, some often they also, often they also lack skills, but they, it feels dirty to them. They, they, this image of a used car salesman, which doesn't even exist anymore. I don't think anyone really sells like that anymore. Right. No, but unfortunately, yeah, but they have this idea that they have to be something they're not in order to sell. My challenge to all these people who are listening who are like, yeah, that's me. Like I don't like selling because I feel like I'm trying to take advantage of people or something like that. No, if you're doing that, you're doing it wrong. Get really clear on what your core values are. State your number one core value and ask as applied to the challenge of sales.

What is the fullest, most satisfying expression of my number one core value as applied to the challenge of sales? What's the fullest, most satisfying expression of my number two core value down the line as applied to the challenge of sales? What's the fullest, most, um, you know, the fullest, most satisfying expression of my purpose and then do that. You know what my sales process is, John? I call my friends and I have a conversation a lot like this one and I ask them how they're doing. And when they share what, you know, whatever successes they have in their life, I'm so delighted for them. And when they share whatever challenges they have in their life, I just do what I do with my friends and for a living with my son.

And I'll say like, here's a, here's an idea. Think about this, whatever. I just, I just be who I am. And then I tell them what's going on with me. And I never sell to my friends. I just tell them what's going on with me. And, you know, I just led this retreat for, uh, you know, for this YPO forum and it was so awesome because, you know, this thing happened or, you know, last month I spoke at a regional, uh, entrepreneurs organization event and just how awesome it was. And I just tell them what's going on with me. And if I make 10 calls like that, I get a referral. And then when I actually do talk with someone like a prospect, I don't, you know, never sell to my friends, but when I, when I talked to a prospect, I asked them, it's a really beautiful question.

Let's pretend it's exactly one year from now. And John, you've just crushed it in every aspect of life, business, help, money, friends, spirituality, everything. Looking back, tell me what made this such a spectacular year. And I helped them. I do what I do. I helped them craft a vision, positive vision for their future, often articulating what they want for themselves better than they could do, um, you know, on their own. I'm like, all right, awesome. That's totally attainable. Where are you right now? What's, uh, you know, just tell me what we have to work with. What have you tried? What's working? What's not works and all. And then what's missing? What's holding you back? What's slowing you down from getting where you want to go?

I basically just give them a little mini coaching call. And at the end of that, they either feel like, Oh, like this guy, he gets me. He's has the power to help me or it's not a good fit. And we move on. And there's no, there's no sales involved. I'm just being me. The fullest example, the fullest, best, most satisfying expression of who I am as a human being. So you said, what's the question you ask on the, cause I, cause this was one that kind of stopped me in my tracks when we went through it. The question when you ask, like when, you know, when you go through the value exercise, right, you got the 50 value, you get down to the 20, done on the five, size one through five, right? What's the question that you ask yourself for each one of those values?

Like, how am I living this? What, what, what, the way you phrased it, could you explain that one more time? Sure. So, um, so core values, it's a living guide for your life. Um, we don't want just single words, honesty, you know, integrity, whatever. Um, I mean, that's something you can put in a refrigerator, but that's not particularly useful. Um, once you have your main core values themes, you put them into full present tense, action-oriented evocative sentences that you could actually be held accountable for. So for example, let's just pretend that one of your core values is honesty. What does it mean for you to be honest? Does it mean full transparency in all my relationships? Everyone knows exactly where they stand for me and nothing left unsaid.

Does it simply mean I never actively lie, but it's okay if I deceive them? And I'm not saying any of these are right or wrong. This is, you know, you'll know it's right for you because you'll look back over the last six months. When is the time when you just most fully live this value? What did it feel like? And then, you know, write it out. Yeah, write all those guiding principles. The next step is to put them in order because we feel guilty. We feel doubt when we're out of alignment with our core values. And we also feel guilt and doubt when our core values are in conflict with each other. Usually with a little bit of creativity and grace, we could find a way to address all of them, but sometimes they're in conflict.

Let's say that you have a core value to personal and financial success, and you also have a core value that family is most important. And now you have a really great opportunity to go out of time for a week and go on a speaking engagement or, you know, go on site with a client. Which one do you choose? Well, if you're not sure which value is the higher priority, then you're guilty about it. You either stay home and you're like, oh, I really wish I could have gone on that thing. Or you go and you're like, oh, like I'm away from my family. But if you know that this one's higher than that one, then the choice is clear. There's no room for guilt and doubt. Now, is it more important to be more successful in business?

Is it more important to, you know, spend time with your family? There is no objective answer to that question. There were some of these questions, some of the, one answer might be more conducive to a, you know, a happy life, but at the end, you have to own your values. To answer the question, though, I think you're asking once you have your guiding principles, this question is just how could it be more so to look at it each word, each phrase at a time? And, you know, if I don't mind, if you don't mind, uh, I have your core values right here in front of me and your number one core values. I put my family first. I don't act until I consider the impact on them. So the exercise we did is like, what does it actually mean to put my family first?

Yeah. What does it mean to not act until I consider the impact on them? And what is the impact on them? And then how could it be more so? And you could play with the language. Is there anyone in your family who you haven't been putting first lately, who deserves a little bit more of your time and attention? Heather, go ahead. No, I was going to say this is, this was the realization, uh, that hit me like a ton of bricks when we went through this exercise. And I think it's important for people to hear this because there's the perception of core values and the reality of core values. And to your point of, yeah, we can all put them on the refrigerator, you know, and kind of, and convince ourselves that those are our values.

And I realized, you know, you know, my daughter was born in 2010 and that was right when I was taken off as far as my business was concerned. My wife stayed home. I was a weekend dad and I traveled almost every single weekend for 10 years of my daughter's life. And thank God for COVID. Right. And I remember I would say, well, I'm doing this for family. Right. And I remember we went through the exercise and, and, you know, I think I asked you like, Hey, isn't kind of family the default number one, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, shouldn't it just be number one, just regardless. And you were, you got, you kind of were like, no, if you really wanted to be your number one, you got to write it down and then ask yourself that question.

And when I sat with that, I, I came to a, the horrifying conclusion that I was using family as the, the excuse that also that my, you know, we could have the house and my daughter could have the opportunities and my wife could do whatever she wanted to do. But ultimately the reason I was doing what I was doing, cause I was really fucking good at what I was doing. And it's just something about being the guy that goes to Japan for a day or like standing in front of a thousand people and having people come up and be like, Oh man, that was awesome. Like that, there was such an ego to it. And it, and it hurt that, that, that part of the process hurt because it was a mirror to me saying, fuck you, John, for 10 years, you were, you were pretending that this was for your family when it was really for you.

And then I had to really recenter on that question of like every single question I asked myself. We may or may not be aligned with our core values, but there's also something that a lot of people deal with, which is they have false call of it. They have false core values. And despite any time I share a client story, they've always given me permission to share. Otherwise the default is everything's confidential. But I went to this exercise with a guy who, um, when he started to craft his number one core value, it was, I am true to myself as I fulfill my obligations to others. And I didn't really understand what it meant. And for like five minutes, it was poking at it a little bit. Like, like, what do you mean?

Can you give me some examples? And then you just be kind of squirrely. And then all of a sudden he says, Oh my God, I hate that about myself. My entire life. I've been always do. Other people want me to do. I'm done with it. I'm not even ready to put myself first. All right. Let's reel it back a little bit. Like the goal is not to be like a selfish jerk. But yeah, like his entire life, since he was very small, he was told like, Oh, to be a good boy, you need to, you know, do what other people want you to do. And there's a place for that. Um, but in doing this exercise, he realized this, this guiding star for him was something that he never even believed. And just a simple example, everyone could understand to a heroin addict.

Their most important thing is getting the next fix. It does not mean that heroin is their core value. And there's so much to deal with from a childhood standpoint, right? Because we are a lot of ways told what our values are. Like, you know, I, I use religion as a perfect example of this. And, you know, regardless of what people's opinion is on religion, like I find it to be a control mechanism. And there was a point where I woke up and I was right. Wait a minute. These aren't my value. Like I've been told my entire life, you know, going to Sunday school and church that this is, and I, and I, and it never felt right to me. I remember my mom says this one really interesting when I was like eight years old.

Um, I walked out of church one day and I looked at my mom and I said, mom, am I a bad person? And she was like, of course not. Why, why would you even ask that? And I was like, well, because every time I come here on Sunday, I feel bad about myself. I feel bad that I'm doing the wrong things. And so I was being given these values that weren't mine. And so, and I think that quite frankly, and I just use religion as one example, there's, there's hundreds of others as far as what your family puts on you, what you, you know, what you adopt other people's, right? How do you, outside of going through the process and maybe even listening to this podcast and saying, holy shit, maybe I have to really go revisit this.

Is there, is there a point where like, here's an example. If you're talking to a friend and you know, they're just not happy, you know, they're not right. And it's because they're, they're, they're in conflict with their values because their perception based on what their mom told them and how they were supposed to be and all this other stuff. Is there something you can do to help that person come to that realization that they, that they aren't living their core values outside of going through a formal exercise? Yeah, well, there's red flags. If you're, if you feel a lot of guilt, if you feel a lot of doubt, if you find that you need to numb yourself with drugs, alcohol, TV, whatever, those are red flags that you're living your life out of alignment with your values.

And there's also, there's these parts of our bodies that just have, uh, that know what's best for us, our throat, our chest, our gut. If you start to learn to listen to yourself and, you know, this is part of our language. Just like we, as I know it in my gut, like that's not right for me. Um, like I feel it in my chest. Ah, like that's just not right for me. Like, ah, it's just, it's caught in my throat. Like I can't even say the words. These are those parts of our bodies that know these things. And nobody's flame is out. There's at least an ember in there. Like, even if you spent a lifetime denying who you are, there's still an ember of who you really are in there. When you can be quiet, when you can be still, when you can listen to that and just say, you know, like this, I don't know what's right, but this just feels wrong.

And that's, um, that's a part of you telling you it's time to wake up and start finding some answers. That's why like this weekend we had our, uh, or two weekends ago we had our Halloween party and you know, it's a, it's a no stress zone. It's a no problem zone. It's like anytime somebody brings up something negative, I'm like, please stop. Like, that's not like, I don't care what it is. Um, and there was, there was a few of our friends who I, I are so caught up in their own head that, you know, I was trying to like, they would be like talking a million miles an hour. And I was like, just, you know, and we had areas around the house where you can just chill and, you know, sit on a hammock and look up and, you know, the lighting that we have all.

And I'm like, just, just sit here, please just sit here by yourself and, and just be quiet for, for a little bit. And what was sad was they couldn't do it. They, they couldn't sit still for more than two, three minutes. They couldn't, their brain couldn't slow down enough to, to be reflective. And I think it was because they're, there's so much turmoil, turmoil inside that they, that they're just, they're just filling that void with activity, with thoughts. So they don't have to think about the hard stuff. And that's worse than that. It's the tool to solve problems, to navigate life. And analytical logic is an amazing tool to come up with a business plan to start to, you know, to make a budget, to build a bridge, like never hire someone who doesn't have these skills, but you cannot think your way to happiness.

And worse than that, everything that makes life worth living looks stupid through an analytical lens. I, I have a 16 year old son. He's the light of my life. I love everything about being a father. I loved changing his diapers. I loved comforting him from his tantrums. Tantrums. I tease him all the time that he is the worst investment I will ever make. I've, I've, I've, I've spent thousands of hours just making this child laugh. I, I spent, how much, how much money have I spent on lessons and enrichment and travel and all this sort of stuff? I will never get that time and money back. Why would I want, why would anyone want to watch a sunset? I can't imagine a leap of less efficient activity.

And if you are going to watch a sunset, why don't you record it and play it back twice as fast? Like these statements sound ridiculous because they are. Everything that makes life worth living looks stupid through an analytical lens. Nobody needs a coach. Nobody needs someone to tell them, should I make a thousand dollars, John, or should I make a million dollars? Should I get a hug or should I burn my fingers? These things yield easily to analytical logic, but everything that matters in life, there are more subtle heart-based, soul-based tools and core values, purpose. These are the places to start. So let's dive into what you're doing now. It's a, you're launching a new program called Defy Gravity and Get Clarity.

Yeah. First of all, why, what's that about? And like, what are the, why, why those two phrases? And then what is it, what is it, what are you trying to accomplish with this? Yeah. So Defy Gravity is a 12 month group coaching program that gives you everything that you need to get out of your own way. My favorite clients, John, are people like you, who, um, I call Ferraris stuck in the parking garage. They're passionate masters of their craft. Like there's nothing I could teach. There's nothing I was ever able to teach you about how to be a better sales trainer, right? Like that's absurd. Like you're just so much better than I will ever be. But, um, how to get rid of your old loyalties, how to get rid of your self-learning beliefs, how to find your way out of the parking garage so that you could hit the open road.

And each month is its own, um, theme. And we start with who you are. Next, we go to a, where are you going? Do you have a compelling vision that magnetically pulls you towards it? There's two kinds of visions. There's a negative vision, a victim's vision. I just want it to stop sucking so badly. And it's fine to get you started. You know, like I hate my job, so I'm going to get a new job. But when there's this gap between where we are and where we want to go, if we have a negative vision, we take action to make it better. And now it's not so bad anymore. So we stop doing all those habits. It's just not sustainable. It's that classic. In contrast, when we have a positive vision for what we actually want to accomplish, that same creative tension that gets us started, but it's like a magnet.

The more progress we make, the more motivated we are to keep going. Once you know who you are and you know where you're going, the next question is, well, how to get there? What are the skills, the information you need to know? That's always part of a coaching engagement. It's never the most important part. I could give you a book on the physics of how to ride a bicycle. It will not help you learn how to ride a bicycle, but it will make it worse because it'll be in your head instead of your body where you need to be. And the next step is what are all the obstacles? What are all the obstacles in terms of not enough time, not enough money, relationships, loyalties, all that sort of stuff? How do we go over, around, through, unwind, all those things?

My favorite, if you know who you are, if you know where you're going, if you know how to get there, if you've removed all the obstacles in front of you, and it still feels like it's one step forward, one step back, well, then the obstacles, it's in here. It's in between your ears, usually in the form of self-learning belief. And defy gravity, one step at a time, gives you everything you need, nothing you don't, to unleash yourself, to head the open road, to discover what exactly you were born to do in this world and how to get there. We're starting in January. Nice. Limiting beliefs. That's a whole other topic. How do you... How do you... You'll have to make me back. So, you know, because I have plenty of them, you know what I mean?

And I guess, how do you identify real, just like values, how do you identify real limiting beliefs versus kind of the perception of limiting beliefs? And I say that because I think, you know, I'm like, oh, well, you know, I could never be a multimillionaire because I'm just not blah, blah, blah, right? Something like that. Reality, I know if I just worked hard enough and I did these things, whatever, but there's something getting in the way that I'm not worthy, right? And you hear this, you hear all the time, you know, imposter syndrome. So what, first of all, actually, let's use that angle. What's your take on imposter syndrome? Because I've learned a couple of things through different conversations with people about how that actually is, in some cases, a good thing.

But what's your take on imposter syndrome? And then we'll talk about limiting beliefs. Yeah, there's a very simple cure for imposter syndrome. Stop being an imposter. Just be yourself. And when you don't know something, tell people. You know, there's a very wonderful speaker named John Coyle who says, when you work on your weaknesses, you get really strong weaknesses. But there's still weaknesses. Just own your strengths. Own what's unique about you. Recognize and be fully transparent about what your weaknesses are. Find other people to fill in the gaps. Stop being an imposter. And if you truly don't belong where you're supposed to be, why would you want to be there anyway? But if you know that you have something to offer, offer it and be transparent about it.

And all these things, John, whether I said the, you know, the sign that you're out of alignment with your core values is that you feel guilt and doubt. And that works a sign that you have a self-learning belief is that you've had a goal, something that you wanted to accomplish for a long time. You worked hard on it. And it just feels like it's one step forward, one step back, no matter what you try to do. And everyone around you says, John, why don't you just try the thing? And you're like, oh, no, you don't understand. It's so much more complicated than that. I can't do that thing. They're not the ones that don't get it. It's almost always you. Our conscious minds are like an ant riding the elephant of our subconscious.

The ant cannot control the elephant through force of will. The most the ant can do is say, hey, look over there and hope that the big dummy turns its head and wants to go towards it. An ant can't control an elephant, like maybe for a minute, maybe whatever. But whether it's dieting or making 70 sales calls a day or whatever it is, if you're working against yourself, it's unsustainable. You're going to burn out. You're going to sabotage yourself. You're going to find some way to make it fail. And if we have time, I'd love to tell you a process that you could get rid of these self-learning beliefs. I'll tell a personal story. So I told you I grew up in a physically and emotionally unsafe home.

And I emerged from this home with all sorts of self-learning beliefs and dysfunctions. And the most important one was that I learned to mute myself emotionally. I just wouldn't share what I was thinking, what I was thinking, what I was feeling. And I remember I was 28 years old. I was at an entrepreneurial conference called Gathering of Titans. I've gone there for almost 25 years now. But it was the second year. It was the second day. And I'm a really great student. You know, I look at the agenda. I listen to all the speakers. But that night was open bar, unstructured social time. And as an extreme introvert, unstructured social times introvert kryptonite, it's deeply uncomfortable. And I was flitting from one unsatisfying conversation to another.

And then Jen and I just felt all these conversations buzzing in my ears. And I just felt all this anxiety rising in me. And I just ran out of there. It was 8 p.m. I went to bed. And I was sitting in bed, just thinking, what's wrong with me? Like, I came here to meet these people. They want to meet me, too. I'm the only one hiding in my bedroom, in my room at 8 o'clock at night. Everyone else is enjoying themselves. So I made it to the conference, went home. And I did what I do, because I'm a learner. And I read six books on how to connect with people and small talk. And it helped a little. It only helped a little, because that wasn't the problem. I mean, yes, I wasn't good at that stuff. But there were other people who weren't good at that stuff, either.

And they did just fine. It took me another 10 years to learn what I'm about to share with you right now. But I learned about this thing called competing commitments. It's a fancy word for self-learning beliefs. And the competing commitment exercise starts with saying, what are you consciously committed to? What's the ant's commitment? And I said, I'm committed to developing and maintaining deep, authentic relationships. All right, awesome. Next column. What are all the things that I do that sabotage myself? What are all the things I do that are cross-purposes of that? And I made a list. 10 or 15 things. People ask me what I think. And I don't tell them. People ask me what I feel. And I just say, fine.

Regardless of what I'm actually feeling. We would sit at... We'd have meals at these long communal tables. And I would just clam up. Like, I wouldn't be able to think of anything to say. I would just be totally silent. Sometimes someone would actually try to engage with me. And I would push them away. Or I'd be rude to just kind of shut down the conversation. I mean, I'd listen to 10 or 15 things. Okay. Someone who does all those things. What else might they be committed to? Something self-conscious. Oh, sorry. Self-protective. That makes all those behaviors seem perfectly reasonable. And I realized, John, that I was committed to not letting anybody know who I was or what I thought or what I felt.

Well, it kind of makes sense. Of course, someone who's committed to not letting anyone know who they are, what they think or what they felt would do all those things. Next step. Someone who has that competing commitment. What is a belief? An assumption that they have about themselves or the world or their place in it. That makes that competing commitment a matter of life and death. That just, it's unthinkable to not do it. And I realized that I was committed to not letting anybody know who I really was or what I thought or what I felt. Because if I did, they wouldn't like it. They would use that information to hurt me. And I feel terrible about myself. Now, when I was eight years old, that was a perfectly accurate worldview.

That's exactly the kind of family that I grew up in. But as a 28-year-old entrepreneur is surrounded by friends like I wasn't scared. It's very rarely enough. To say, John, that's dumb. Just stop doing that. Occasionally, it is. About 10% of the time. Just to shine a light on it. And then like, oh, poof. Normally, we have to do something about it. There's no joke in therapy. I've seen a therapist for 20 years. And now I came to the realization that it is all my mother's fault. Like, okay, so what? Like, join the club, right? Always interesting, occasionally useful, how we got to be the way we are. But the real way out of it is to do tests of the validity of the belief. Get the elephant to drain its head.

So I started with my good friend, and I just told him what I was doing. And over the next couple months, they would ask me what I thought, and I'd tell him. And they asked me what I felt, and I'd tell him. And it took me, with a guide, it usually takes a month or two. I was doing this by myself, so it took about six months. But over the course of about six months, like, the belief, it loosened its grip on me. And then there was no reason to engage in all those self-sabotaging behaviors. And without any willpower, they all just effortlessly fell away. I'm still an introvert. I'd much rather talk with you one-on-one than with a big group of people. But I could roll it in, I could roll it out. And this is a story I could tell a stranger.

You know, there's, I'm totally open, fuck, transparent these days, because I get rid of these self-learning beliefs. Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to authenticity, too, right? Like, it's, I just, it's so much harder to live an inauthentic life. To, you know, I tell people, I'm like, I'm the worst liar you'll come across, because I just, I'm not smart enough to lie. You know what I mean? Because that means I got to hold it in my head, and I got to remember it, and I got to make sure I don't say it again, you know what I mean? I got to say it the right way. So I'm just like, I'm just going to be me. And I'm sorry if that's going to offend some people, or I'm going to say the wrong thing. But going back to values and knowing where I'm coming from, I know whatever I do is rarely in a malicious, has malicious intent.

Now, if I have malicious intent, I will purposely have malicious intent. But when I'm being me, if I offend somebody, I'm sorry, but it's not for intention, you know, I'm not doing it on purpose. So absolutely, just so much easier and more joyful and more meaningful and just easy to be yourself than to be someone you're not, unless you have one of, and most people do, unless you have one of these fear-based and subconscious self-protective beliefs, in which case it's impossible, no matter how hard you try, because the ants can never overpower the elephant. Well, I think turning this into another session for myself, I'm eager, like I'm actually itching to continue the conversation. But I think in the interest of keeping it to an hour and allowing people to find out more about what you're doing, Jonathan, and especially with this new stuff, I think this Defy Gravity and Get Clarity, which you're launching here, is special.

So I think there's a lot of people that can benefit from it. So talk to me or talk to the audience about where they can find more information about you, what you're doing, and how to sign up for this, and everything else. Sure. Easiest ways to go to my website, untangled-coaching.com. Don't forget the dash. Under programs, look for group coaching. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Just search for Jonathan Domsky. And for anybody out there listening, if you've ever heard me on this podcast talk about my why, talk about my values and the importance of them and the process that I went through, you are listening to the man that helped me get through all that stuff and define all those. So if you are looking for purpose, if you are looking for why, if you are trying to get unstuck, I highly recommend giving Jonathan a call.

And if nothing else, having a good conversation with a really good person. So thank you so much, Jonathan. It's been a pleasure having you on here. And I really feel fortunate to have you as part of my life and helping me guide through some of the decisions and transitions that I've had to go through already. So appreciate it. Jonathan, this was so much fun. You're so good at what you do. Thank you for doing the good you do in the world. I appreciate it, my friend. Likewise. And everybody hopefully enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day.

And the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough. Now, to keep the momentum going, it would mean the world to me if you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter, where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day just like you.

Go to jbarrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today. Let's all level up and make this happen together.