Chris Bogue: The impact of improv on sales effectiveness

Second City is this very truth-based form of comedy where they teach you, don't lie about anything. Tell the boring truth. The most interesting character is a character that is 99% similar to you. It's all about figuring out like, who am I? What do I believe? What are my feelings? What are the relationships I have? Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. Today's conversation is with Chris Bogue. Chris coaches people to create short video content for business. He's the creator of The Complete Guide to Selling on Video, a digital course on video prospecting for sales.

He's also a sketch comedy writer, an improv trainer, which I found super fascinating, and host of Chris Sells His Soul on Spotify and Death by PowerPoint, which are hysterical. This is a fun conversation about how to be your authentic self in sales and leveraging video to stand out from the crowd. Now we started with how he helps people clarify the version of themselves that they want to be, which got me really thinking a little bit deeper than usual, since I don't think a lot of people know who they really want to be versus what they think they want to be. There's a big difference there. We then married that up with what the audience needs them to be or is expecting from them, which is another story.

So we had a few differing opinions on how people should show up, including the concept of faking it till you make it and who they are on camera versus who they are in real life. But we both agree on the core value of authenticity and how it is truly a differentiator these days. Chris also dropped some great tips on how to use video throughout the sales process in some ways I hadn't even thought of before, like using it to confirm meetings. This is a fun conversation that will hopefully make you think and give you some good tips to try out today in your sales process. Hope you enjoyed as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Chris Bogue, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast, my friend.

How are you doing today? I'm good. Thanks for having me on, man. How are you? I'm doing well. It's Halloween. It's 80 degrees right now in Boston, which is absolutely bananas because I remember as a kid growing up, like hucking eggs at each other and the eggs like literally bouncing off my costume because it was so cold outside and not breaking. And so the fact that it's 80 degrees right now is bananas and I love Halloween. It's my favorite, uh, my favorite holiday of the entire year. So how about you? Where are you? Actually, I didn't even notice that. Where are you, but where are you based out of? I'm talking to you from sunny Chicago, Illinois, where it is also 80 degrees. So it's, I mean, my wife's an environmental scientist, so this climate change stuff is real, but man, I'll take these days.

Yeah. Well, if I was a kid, I would definitely want Halloween to be warmer too, because I definitely hated being, uh, Indiana Jones wearing a winter jacket over my, uh, cooler, but lighter jacket. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see, we'll see who shows up today, but, uh, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I appreciate you reaching out because I've been following you for a while. I've been noticing a lot of your stuff on social and you having fun with it, which I think, uh, not enough people do, right? Everybody takes this shit too seriously. And I like the, I like your style and your approach here. So we're going to get into that and talk about video and authenticity and, you know, challenging some conventional wisdom and sales.

But before we do that, Chris, talk to me about Chris, where are you coming from? And not your LinkedIn background. Cause we can all look at that, but growing up parents, you know, kind of how'd you catch the bug to be who you are as far as entrepreneurship and all that stuff. Give us a little history, history lesson on you. Yeah. So I did, I never thought I was going to start my own business. This all kind of happened on accident. Um, throughout most of my life, I had like my, uh, professional self, which was often in sales or, you know, account management or something similar. And then I had, uh, the performer and that was the stuff I did on nights and weekends. And those were the two different versions of myself that, you know, uh, I kept them separate.

And, uh, I was always drawn to that as a kid. I was always a kid who wanted to be on stage, did a lot of talent shows, did a lot of school plays. I was a speech team kid. I was an improv kid. I've done standup. I've done experimental theater. I've done all this stuff. And then I was like, well, none of that's serious. You know, I'm going to go do sales because that's how you pay the bills. And then, um, 2020, uh, was a crazy year. A lot of crazy things happened for me. I, uh, well, one, everybody went remote and all of a sudden video became much more important in sales. Uh, and, um, I was in a strange place because I was going through a divorce, uh, that happened much more quickly than I thought it was going to.

Um, so I was going through a divorce, I was moving out on my own. The world was in chaos. Nobody was going anywhere. And I had a lot of time to be by myself. And, uh, at that point I hadn't done a comedy show in about three years. I thought I was just done with comedy. Certainly I wasn't doing it on the internet. I didn't think anybody would watch it. I didn't think I was funny enough to do anything on the internet. Um, and it was just kind of right place, right time where all of a sudden all these salespeople needed to get on video. And that's not something video people know how to do. That's not something that's taught. Um, it's not like calling and emailing where people have been studying it and writing books about it for years and stuff like that.

It's pretty uncharted territory. And not only do I have experience like performing, I've been on TV and, uh, even more importantly, I've trained other people on how to give a good performance because oftentimes I was writing and directing comedy shows at Chicago's second city theater. And I was not in that. It was me and a group of actors and I was writing original material for them. And I had to, uh, make them be the star, you know? And, um, it was this very natural opening where I'm like, Oh, here's this little stage. Here's this wonderful little moment. You've got 30 seconds to get your prospects attention and everybody's either procrastinating on it or doing too much, or they're too afraid to try it.

And, uh, I kind of have a knack for just getting people to take action, you know? And, um, second city is this very truth-based form of comedy or they teach you, uh, don't lie about anything. Tell the boring truth. Um, the most interesting character is a character that is 99% similar to you, you know? So it's all about figuring out like, who am I? What do I believe? What are my feelings? What are the relationships I have? And, um, I started talking about this stuff on LinkedIn because I think it's fascinating. Uh, second city has been teaching a lot of this stuff since the 1950s and I don't hear it talked about anywhere, certainly not on LinkedIn, certainly not in any sales training I've ever taken.

So I'm like, I'm going to go do it. And I made a course and I've, uh, developed my own training programs. And, uh, I focus on getting people in front of the camera as the version of themselves that they want to be, you know? And I have this philosophy that each of us has 10 different versions of ourselves. You know, sometimes you're the student, sometimes you're the teacher, sometimes you're the father, sometimes you're the son. Um, it's all about figuring out who you want to be, which version of yourself does the audience need you to be? And how can you go do that in a way that is friendly, but also professional and also, uh, drives the relationship forward, you know? And, uh, that's really what's been my focus for the past few years.

Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like chat GPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done. And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to jbarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off.

Now let's get back to the conversation. Let me ask you, um, a version of themselves that they want to be. That's a, that's a deep, um, topic because I don't believe a lot of people know what they truly want to be. They might have a perception of what they want to be. And I'm going to use a very simple example of like success, right? A lot of people's perception of success is rich and having all nice things and all this other stuff. And a lot of times when people get that, they're still hollow as shit inside. So what they think they want to be versus what they actually want to be. How do you help people understand what they really want to be, not what they think they want to be? Because there's another topic of what the audience needs you to be.

And that that's a different conversation I want to have with you. But how do you really tap into somebody who is young, you know, not maybe has a ton of experience so they can't reflect on a lot of stuff and all the mistakes they've made like I have. Um, and they're searching for it. And one more piece to this equation, it's like, I always hated the advice when people would say, you know, follow your passion. Like, I think that's the dumbest fucking advice you could possibly give to like a 20 something year old kid, because you don't know what you're passionate about yet. You got to try a whole bunch of shit to figure out what you're good at and what you like. And then once you figure that out, yeah, now go all in and follow that.

But you get fucked. If you told me that my audience has heard me say this before, if you told me to follow my passion in my 20s, I'd be a stoner on the fucking side of the road painting murals, and I would be dead broke, right? So, so when it comes to what they want to be, how do you find, how do you help somebody find that? How do I help someone find who they want to be? So I got two answers to that. So one, I will say that if it's a younger person, they've actually kind of got their video persona worked out a lot of the time. That's actually why I think what I'm doing is kind of future-proofed, because there is a whole generation of people entering the workforce right now that grew up with YouTube.

And the difference between them and the 50-year-old VP of sales who is, you know, running the sales organization is for that young person, video is a much more casual thing, you know? And whenever I work with an older person, it's actually hard because they have this vision of video where they're like, okay, we got to hire a production crew. We got to get the lights in here. We got to get the cameras. I got to get my hair done. I got to get my makeup done. I got to figure out what my outfit is. And, um, these kids want to be YouTube stars, you know, and it drives their bosses crazy. And my answer to the bosses is like, Hey, actually you should let them be YouTube stars. You should absolutely do that because YouTube stars make money by selling products that they don't use just like your sales team.

You know? So I actually think if you're 23 years old right now, there's a good chance that that version of you who you turn on the camera and become is actually a much more natural version of yourself than the version of the person you try to be when you make a cold call, you know? Um, so that's kind of one part of it is like, even when he's already got the video skills. So even with, you know, cause I have a 14 year old daughter, right? And it just, the social stuff just, just scares the shit out of me. Right. Because everything is like, like, Oh, you know, look at me and like, and there's the FOMO. And, and so a lot of these kids are, are projecting, even though they're comfortable on video, they're projecting a version of themselves that goes to the next part, which is, which you said, which is, you know, what the, what does the audience expect of them or what does the audience need from them?

So, so how do you, how do you bring those two together of like who I actually am? Well, three things, who I actually am, who I want to be and what the audience needs me to be. Yeah. So I use, there's a word I use a lot that my English teacher from freshman year of high school would be very proud of me for. And that word is soliloquy. I say, what I do is I train people in the lost art of the soliloquy and anybody at home who forgot to bring their notes from freshman year, English class to this podcast interview right now. Well, remember that a soliloquy is when the character breaks the fourth wall and they talk directly to the audience. Yeah. So, uh, William Shakespeare was big fan of this. Um, the office, the office, parks and rec, I Carly, Ferris Bueller, you could come up with a million examples.

This technique has been around forever. And the idea is when you look straight at the audience and you break through that fourth wall of reality, you suddenly have the ability to say anything you want. Like that's what Iago is doing in Shakespeare. He's like, he's setting things up and he looks at the audience. He's like, check this out, everybody. I'm about to fuck up everybody's life. And then he snaps back into it and you can just go with it. So it gives you an opportunity to tell the truth. And there's an exercise I do with all my clients where I say, literally, we're going to take five minutes. And I want you to write down every single time you've ever won. You've ever objectively won anything.

You know, for me, I was a speech team kid. I was a theater kid. I was an improv guy. Those sets where I was on stage, where I was riffing off an audience, that's the version of me that can win. You know, um, most of the people I work with are not funny. You know, maybe you're not a funny person. Maybe you are a good teacher. When I meet somebody who is a good teacher, I don't tell them to go do comedy. I tell them you need to go teach your audience because that's the version of you that can win. In sales, a lot of people find this version of themselves in sports. You know, um, sports is where they found their discipline. Sports is where they were able to inspire other people. Um, sports is where they were able to be trust, like to build trust.

I'm going to help them get back into that mindset. You know, uh, some people find this in church, you know, some people go up and it, and that's the version of themselves where they can connect with an audience. Um, oftentimes if I'm working with somebody who's like an executive or something, it's like, okay, you know, um, you're a woman who runs a company who built a company. So like you're going to sit here in your blazer. And when you talk about building a company, you are talking as a woman who has done shit, who has accomplished things, who has made money. Um, but maybe that's not what you need to do this video. Maybe we're going to have you in the kitchen here and now you're just going to be Laura, you know, the happy go lucky gal that everybody was friends with growing up, who, who was good at sports and who was good at school.

And, um, we all have this different moment. Some people it's, they gave the best man speech at their best friend's wedding. And that was the greatest performance they've ever gave. They took the house down. They were funny. They were sentimental. They were a little bit raunchy, you know, but everybody has a moment where it works, where they have to put that on. And again, sometimes you're the parent. Sometimes you're, uh, the, uh, what's the opposite parent, the child, you know, or the student and the teacher, you know, um, you can choose these different versions of yourself that you want to be. Sometimes I'm out there going like, Hey, I'm a guy who's made a lot of video. I'm a guy who's made a lot of money doing sponsored content for companies and stuff.

This is what I do. This is how you do X, Y and Z. And I'm going out there as the authority. Um, I've done shows where I'm like, I don't know what this AI stuff is. This all seems like a pod people to me. And, uh, I know we need to get better at it. So on this episode, I'm going to learn from somebody who knows much more than I do. And, uh, I don't build credibility in that situation by being like, I'm the AI guru. Look at me. I'm like, look, I think this is Skynet. I don't trust any of this. I hate 90% of the stuff I see in my LinkedIn feed because it's AI generated garbage. What am I missing guy? What am I missing? And, um, that's more real me going out there as the guy who's kind of confused and skeptical of this is much more, uh, authoritative for the audience because I'm not trying to be something that I'm not.

And, um, you know, the example here that I, I give an example, cause I have this whole belief that, uh, content on LinkedIn is not a one way communication. It's not theater. Theater is where you have performers up on a stage and you have an audience that sits there and watches politely and they clap when it's done. And you know, the two never meet. I'm like, this is an improv show. This is the audience is part of the show and the things that they're doing should be affecting the things that you're doing, you know? And, um, yeah, I, I, I've kind of like lost my train of, uh, I thought it was a lot of aligning again, who you are versus what your audience is. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, imagine these two different scenarios from a content creator, right?

So you got an SDR out there and he goes, okay, uh, here's my five tips to crush your quota. Right. Follow me from my, from my five quota crushing tips. Right. Um, compare that to the SDR. He's like, Hey, the number one thing I struggle with is making enough dials. My boss has been telling me I got to make a hundred dials a day. So, uh, check in with me every day at 5 PM. I'm going to update LinkedIn at the end of the day. And I'm going to tell you whether or not I hit my hundred dials. And if you've got some tips for how I can hit my dials, drop them in the comments. Cause I could really use them. You know, that second version, you've given the audience an active role in the story. And it's not because you were trying to print, even if you did crush your quota, they don't know you, they don't know any of that.

But the second one, they're like, oh, here's what I do. Here's, here's a version that helps me make sure that I hit my dial. I put out a list and I've got check marks on it. I do. And all of a sudden you're having this wonderful conversation and you didn't have to invent anything, you know? Um, but it requires a little bit of humility and it requires acknowledging that you're not the expert of everything and that's okay. The audience doesn't expect you to be that. Okay. So how does that translate? So I a hundred percent agree when it comes to social, right? Where it's like, all right, I'm building my brand. I'm trying to engage with people. I'm trying to, you know, put out good content, have some fun with it.

Um, but when it comes to selling, right, when you're talking to a, you know, a buyer, if you will, I think the days of, of, Hey, I don't know. Let me get back to you on that one are, are kind of over because the information is so prevalent out there and you should, you need to, uh, my personal belief is with AI being what it is. And I'm kind of on the same page with you as Skynet. Um, um, the, I, I, I need to know more about my product and solution. I need to be able to answer, even as an SDR, the, the excuse of, Oh cool. I did a quick little qualification. Now let me wait a week for you to go talk to somebody who actually knows what the fuck they're talking about. Like those days are over because my tolerance for that as a buyer, like you caught me.

Okay, cool. Let's have a valuable oriented conversation. So how do you try how based on what you said there, as far as, you know, you being your authentic self and kind of, Hey, I have no fucking idea what I'm going, but I'm doing, I'm going to tell, tell my journey. And I'm a huge believer of that when it comes to social and brand building, but how does that translate to, to selling so that, you know, you're in this sales conversation with a buyer, they're engaged, you know, you want to be your authentic self, but you also like, don't know everything and you don't want to pretend like you do because you can sniff through that shit. So where are you on, on that part of the equation as it relates to you being you?

Um, my whole thing on like, how much should the SDR be able to answer is like, as an SDR, your job is to ask the questions, you know, uh, you're not always going to have the answers depending on how complicated the thing you're selling is. Uh, you know, if that call becomes more serious or if they go further down the process, you might need to have like a sales engineer in there. So my whole thing is like, you should be very clear on, uh, knowing who it is you're calling. You should have done your homework beforehand, knowing like, what do they sell? What are their problems? You know, maybe what, what is their tech stack? What are they already using? You should be a hundred percent clear on why you're reaching out and you should be able to know who they are.

But like, that's the whole reason why you have to bring it to the AE or bring it to a demo or something is because there is this element here where it's like, look, here's why I'm reaching out to you. Here's the question I've been meaning to ask you. I don't know if this is going to solve your problems. I'm not saying it's going to solve all your problems. I'm saying the reason why I reached out to you is because this is what you do. And I know this is the problem you're figuring out right now. And here's the one thing I wanted to ask you, you know, and I think we could be a lot smarter with our questions. And, um, but this idea is, uh, Oh, actually we can actually get into questions here a little bit more because an improv, they teach you that questions are bad.

And, um, salespeople are like, what questions are bad. Uh, but yeah, questions are bad. And, uh, you learn not to ask them in improv and actually that, uh, skill of learning to drive a scene forward without asking questions is actually really helpful in sales because in improv we say, uh, you don't ask questions, you give gifts, a gift moves the scene forward. A gift gives something for your partner to react off of a question steals information from them. A question is a selfish thing in an improv scene because you're putting all the onus of action on the other person. You're saying, Hey, you make a decision about how the scene's going to be moving forward. Not me. Okay. And I actually think that's really relevant to sales because, um, if all you're doing is just grilling them with questions, it can come off as an interrogation.

If you're asking them questions about stuff you could have easily Googled, you're going to come off looking like a jackass who didn't do his homework. And, um, yeah, it's that idea of like gift, gift, gift, gift, take, uh, you know, give, give, give, ask. Um, if I say, Hey John, I'm reaching out to you because I know you're a VP of sales. I know right now your organization is focused on X, Y, and Z. I had one thing I want to ask you about what your sales team's doing. You'll probably be like, all right, go ahead. You know, cause at least I've demonstrated. I know who you are. I know what you do. Um, your goals, your values, like those are things that are easily discoverable, right? You could find those on a company mission statement.

You can find those on social media. You can find those. If you dig into an earnings call, like it's not hard to find this kind of information. Um, but yeah, it's like, you, you want to be giving gifts as you talk to establish that, like, I know who you are. I've looked up who you are. I'm not going to waste your time because I'm coming in with surgical precision, asking you something about very, something very specific. But the fact of the matter is if you're an SDR, you're not going to have all the answers to every single one of their questions. And that's why you're booking the demo, uh, and getting them into a longer form meeting. Yeah. It's kind of, so Gary Vaynerchuk, right? I, I, I agree with him on a lot of stuff, but there's one thing that I don't agree with him on.

And it's kind of the, it's the extreme of, of what you're talking about, which is he doesn't prepare for meetings at all. Like he goes in a hundred percent improv and just sees where the conversation goes. And he's like, yeah, no, cause it gives me a preconceived notion of who they are. And I just want to see this be authentic and, you know, and really get to the, and I'm looking at him. I'm like, Gary, you're Gary fucking Vaynerchuk. People want you in that meeting and they're going to open up and tell you whatever the fuck that they want to tell you because you're a celebrity at the end of the day. Whereas the average sales rep needs to come prepared. They have to have a couple of really thoughtful, relevant questions and, but without being scripted.

And I think that's the difference here is the script, right? Which I think has its play. And I'm, I'm actually curious on your thoughts on this because improv is no script at all. Like you're up there and whatever hits you, you're going to roll with. Okay. Well talk to me about that. Cause I've never actually done, I've seen tons of improv, but I've never actually practiced, uh, or learned improv. And so what's the foundation that you bring people through to give them a structure to build from when it comes to improv or do you give them any structure and just throw them up there and say, Hey, here's some words, go fuck with it. Yeah. So the, I, so there's a lot of different, uh, competing thoughts about what improv is and what a good improv scene is.

Uh, where I was trained one, the rule everywhere, everywhere you go, any, you go on any stage improvising with anybody. If you had to do with a scene with Tina Fey or Will Ferrell or somebody like this, you know, the only rule is yes. And you have to say yes. If they say something's true, you have to accept that as true. And the end part of that is more important than the yes part. You say yes. And then there's an and, and, and is where you add your perspective onto that. Um, but I was also taught, there's this, uh, wonderful improv teacher. He's a wonderful director. He runs the annoyance theater in Chicago. His name is Mick Napier. And he's got this whole thing about how like the rules of improv exist to be broken.

And, um, that includes, uh, having nothing in your head at the top of the seat. He actually says the best thing you can do in an improv scene is you pick a point of view to start with. You wear it as lightly as you would a cap. And, uh, you know, I'll start a scene if I'm on stage, you know, maybe I'm like, I'm mixing up a cake, you know, uh, and in my head, I've got a point of view, right? Maybe I'm like, John is my husband and I am so furious. I cannot even look at it. I'm just sitting there stirring my cake. Right. And, uh, if you come in, you can look at the way I'm doing things. You can look at the way I'm, I'm giving you so many gifts without saying a word. However, if you're like, well, mom, what a beautiful birthday cake.

Thanks. I got to throw my point of view out because I've got a yes and your gift here, you know? Um, but I think starting with a point of view is, uh, something anybody in sales can do. It's also something any marketer can do. It's like you arm yourself. And, you know, for me personally, because I, I'm a solo operation, so I have to sell myself all the time. You know, people throw all these wonderful gifts to me out on LinkedIn, you know, uh, and with LinkedIn sales navigator, I could know, I could look and say, Hey, you know, John, I know that your team's been using Vidyard. You know, um, I was actually reaching out because I saw one of your SDRs made this funny post that kind of made me scared because he was talking about how only 10% of his video tends to get watched.

Um, I was just wondering, like, how much do you guys use Vidyard? Like how much, how many videos a week are you having to make? One, I've established that I know what's in your tech stack. Yep. I know what your team is already thinking about this. And I didn't even ask you for a value judgment. I asked you how many, how many videos is your team sending out? You know? So your answer is going to tell me a bunch. Now, the most common answer is, I don't know. I don't know because they don't know because video is not like phone or email where they say, do 30 of this or do 50 of this. They go, go be creative. Bye. You know? Um, so yeah, sometimes they'll be like, well, you know, it's kind of new. Uh, we're still kind of getting used to it.

You know, we'll see, uh, if it works well, we might roll out some, you know, processes for it next year. You know? Oh my God, you have just given me so many gifts. I can ask so many more questions. I can, I can go in there now and now we're really talking too. Now I'm not asking you what's your name and what do you do? We're talking about this very specific process that you already paid for a tool to deal with. And now I'm just asking you like, how are you using it? You know? And then when it comes time for the big ask, I can be like, Hey, you know what? I'm glad you guys are doing that. Like, uh, it's awesome to see your team has started with this. And honestly, this seems to be the case with a lot of teams I talk to is you get the video tool and there's a lot of potential with it, but also it's, it's hard to come up with processes for these.

Cause there's not a lot out there for that. And that was why I was reaching out to you today. Uh, I want to see if you ever wanted to talk about a workshop because I find, uh, most of these teams are seeing wins with video. Most of them want to be getting video out there faster and better. And I want to share with you a little bit about what my training is like, you know? So I want to see, are you free to take a look at that later on this week? Um, and it's like, I've got the why I've got everything built in there, but that all started with a numerical question. And the only reason why you answered the numerical question was because I came in there with a little bit of knowledge because I already looked you up and already did, you know, the boring homework beforehand.

Yeah. And I think that's what it, that's why I'm a little worried that we've turned so many of these SDRs and sales reps into robots and by just going through the motions and sending out these sequences and cadences and calls and whatever it is. And now they are legitimately getting replaced by robots who are doing it way better than they are. And that's where I do think the video to your point is a differentiator in a lot of ways. Um, because it, it shows you now, don't get me wrong. I think we are headed into a world where I, I have, I'm going to have no fucking idea if this is actually you, Chris eventually. Right. Because it's not, this is just some, this is just AI. Right. I mean, it's getting pretty damn close, but I think in the meantime, I always tell reps, look, one cut videos.

Don't, don't do like, if you fuck up on a video, own it and just keep rolling because that is our superpower as humans is that we're not perfect. And the more you show you and potentially even fuck up the, actually the better it's going back to my early days of cold calling, I could have the perfect pitch and, and get nobody called no callbacks, nothing of that. But when I would do like, Hey, this John barrels with drive, look to go. Oh fuck. I'm sorry. I was trying a new pitch there. That was a disaster. Look, look, we fixed computer. I would get more callbacks with that approach when I would screw something up. So I started doing it on purpose. So with video, how let's talk about the, the, the prospecting side.

There's a lot of use cases for video that I'm a big fan of as far as proposal delivery and objection handling and all these other stuff, but you know, front end of the funnel is the hardest thing to do right now. Um, and I think video is a way for us to stand out, but very few reps to it. And so I'm, um, let's talk first of all about your, your strategy in general about using video when it comes to prospecting and let's get tactical as far as when do you do it? Is it first video? Is it the first email that you send with a video? What do you say? Where do you put it? I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Cause I have my own opinions and kind of some data on my end to back it up, but you do this way more than I do.

So talk to me a little bit about the logistics of video and prospecting. Yeah. I don't do video is the first touch point. Okay. I don't. Yeah. I think it's a little weird personally. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not necessarily against it. I've tried it and seen some success with it, but usually when I send the video, it's because I think there is a greater than 50% chance that I can get them to the next step. And that next step is not always a meeting. You know, um, you gotta be very careful about what you ask for. And if this person has absolutely no context for you at all, you know, asking for 30 minutes of their time is a pretty tall drink of water. Cause you're probably going to take more, you know?

Um, and oftentimes I'll actually built in. One of the things I do in my script is I coach them on how to respond to, which I've seen a lot of success where I'm like, what do you mean? How to respond to what? I'll just be like, uh, Hey John, I'm reaching out because I saw this happen. I know your team has been doing vineyard. I know we've been friends on LinkedIn for a while. So here's something I wanted you to think about, you know, and I'll, I'll lay that out. And, uh, I'll usually end the video by saying something like, if you're interested, just respond with anything, literally just respond with anything. Um, you can just DM me back. If you have questions, if you send me a thumbs up emoji, I'll send you some times and we can pick a time on zoom.

That's good for you. Also, if this is not in your wheelhouse and you never want me to ask you this again, send me a thumbs down emoji. And I will mark that this is not something you're interested in at all. And no matter what, thanks a lot. And have a nice day. And, um, that's great because sometimes two months from now, someone randomly sends me a thumbs up emoji and I'm like, boom, calendar link, uh, meeting booked. Um, sometimes they'll respond back and being like, dude, I'm not going to send you a thumbs down, but I'm not here. Here's why I don't think this is a good fit. Um, but that's fine because now we're talking right now. You're giving me information. I often say, you know, uh, often in sales, the challenge in front of us is, um, can we turn this person who is rejecting our information?

Can we turn this person who avoids information from us into a person who's willing to receive information from us? You know, sometimes you got to take that baby step. So usually if I'm sending you a video, it's because we've already connected on LinkedIn and we've already been chummy on some level for at least a couple of weeks or months. Um, maybe I got a referral, maybe somebody else introduced me. I use video all throughout the process, by the way, not just for outreach outreach. I found it's the greatest way to actually get people into a meeting. Um, I found that if you're an SDR, actually the most useful place you can use video is actually the meeting reminder. Oh, nice. I have not seen anybody, uh, who has seen the opposite of this, but like, yeah, even for me, anytime I think I'm a big shot and I'm like, everyone knows my LinkedIn content.

I don't have to do sales processes anymore. Um, people are like, Hey, uh, I'm canceling our meeting. Uh, we'll reschedule some other time, you know, whereas if I go through on Friday and I just look at all the meetings I have next week and I make a short 15 second video for every single person being like, Hey John, looking forward to our chat on Tuesday. Here's one thing I want you to be thinking about. Cause we're going to be talking about that. See you at 10 AM. You are substantially more likely to show up to that meeting. And if you're an SDR and your paycheck and your livelihood depends on not just you setting meetings, but actually getting people to show up for that meeting. Absolutely.

Go through every single calendar meeting you have that's scheduled next week. Make sure they get that little video reminder. It, it's so fast. It's so easy. It improves things. Um, quotes, uh, anytime I'm trying to expand to a team of buyers, anytime, uh, my champion is like, Oh, we're going to introduce you to Mary and Charlie. You know, my question is always like, okay, what do they care about? What are they focused on right now? You know, what are the big problems they're trying to work on? And then as soon as the meeting is done, I pop on the camera and because I tell them, I'm like, Hey, um, typically what I do in a situation like this is I just make a little summary video, introducing myself and letting them know what the meeting's gone about.

If I send that to you, would you be willing to send that on to Mary and Charlie? Usually they're like, yeah, cause they're my champion. Right. So I'm like, great. Now I can send this through their channels instead of mine. That's going to be so much more effective coming from their email, going into their internal Slack channel, whatever. So they tell me, I'm like, okay, what keeps Mary and Charlie up? What are they going to be concerned about? What is their boss yelling at them about? What are they focused on? Um, then I make the video and I'm like, Hey, Mary, Hey, Charlie, I'm introducing myself because I just had a great chat with John about video. And I'm looking forward to chatting with you because I know right now your number one priority is this.

I know right now you're super focused on this. And I am so happy to share how I think I might be able to help you with that. You know, people have overthink video and there's a lot of simple processes. There's a lot of simple things you could be doing to talk to the people that you need to talk to you right now. So, uh, hope we get a chance to chat and thanks a lot. And this way, Mary and Charlie get the personalized video. And I'm saying thing one thing, two thing, three, and these are the three things that I know they actually care about. I like it. And if for some reason that falls through the cracks and, you know, things get delayed and two weeks from now, they're like, who is this Chris Boat guy?

What is it? They watch the video again. And now it's the top three reasons, not my reasons, their reasons. Yeah. And that's why they're going to book the meeting with me. But again, that kind of comes to doing your homework and being a good listener. Yeah. Well, that's, I think the underpinning of all this, what do you think about showing? So there's one thing about like the video, like if I do some homework on you, right. And it's say we warmed each other up on, on LinkedIn, maybe I'm connected and I'm commenting on some, you don't know me, but you know, I'm, I'm kind of there. Right. So there's a couple impression points. Maybe I go to your website, do a little bit of homework, make a cold call, whatever.

Um, and then, you know, third or fourth video, I send it, you know, Hey, what's going on, Chris? You know, I've been following you for a little while. I would love to chat with you. I've done some homework here, whatever. Right there. So I think there's that piece of this, but then there's the, the, let me show you something, you know, a lot of like you and I have the benefit of selling what we do. Right. So I always say like, you know, when people would influence our sales trainer influencers, like it drives me nuts. Oh, build your brand, build your brand. It's like, dude, we sell crack to crack heads and we're crack heads. So it's really fucking easy for me to talk about sales and building your fucking brand to sales reps who are crack heads, just like me.

But for that 25 year old, four year old kid who's selling to CISOs in the cybersecurity space, like, give me a break on building your brand. So, so that, and that fate and, you know, and not knowing what I'm talking about either, but I do think there's a lot of power in like showing like a dashboard or a, like something either ideally on your end, after you've warmed them up a little bit to be like, Hey, Chris, I know you're probably dealing with a lot of different texts. Like, can you, like, here's a dashboard of how we look at the cybersecurity and how we can see everything. If you are, or have that type of view, then feel free not to call me back here or even respond here. But if you don't, you're looking for something like this, I'd love to have a conversation with you.

So what are your thoughts on like basically the show and tell approach to the video? You might diverge a little here because I, I tend not to do that in the cold outreach. Okay. You know, um, because, uh, oftentimes I'm just showing, oftentimes the sales rep is, is either showing them something they already know or showing something that they could find in a demo online. You know, um, they could just go to the website and they're like, Oh, cool. That's what your dashboard looks like, you know? So the other thing too, is like, I think a bit from like kind of a storyteller perspective where like, um, oftentimes when somebody sends me a video like that, the video is 98% my website or my YouTube page or whatever.

And then they're in this like teeny tiny little dot in the bottom left-hand corner of the screen, you know? Um, for me, I always wanted to be like, Hey, I noticed you, I noticed, I noticed this thing that you did. And I have a very specific question about that, you know? And it's like, when, when I'm sending like a quote and I'm like, Hey, this is what you're going to be getting. This is what it's going to look like. This is what you're going to be able to do. Then I'll bring in the visuals and I'll bring in the case and stuff. Cause again, they're, they're having their internal meetings behind there. I actually think a lot of sellers use the screen share as a crutch and, um, they're relying too much on their online materials to do the selling for them.

And they completely miss the opportunity to like make a direct connection with that person. Even with the people who in like, I'm probably going to get in trouble for this because I'm a, I'm an advisor for sense part, you know, but everybody wants to deep fake their videos. And I'm like, um, you can even skip that. You can, you like, I had like one woman that I'm working with right now, a coaching client, and she just went to an industry event, you know, and she was getting the badge scans and, um, you know, did a good job making sure she's disqualifying the wrong people. She's got a list of qualified leads in here. And now I'm 75 people all got a video just being like, Hey, I wanted to follow up on our conversation.

Cause you and I were chatting and I wanted to see if you wanted to talk about blah, blah, blah, you know, um, it's very specific to her business, but it's like, I'm not having her, uh, fake it, but she's also, we just scripted it. So it sounds like you're talking to one person, but it's a message that's relevant to many people. Um, you have all these wonderful storytelling gifts on video that, uh, you don't have in a cold call that you don't have in a cold email, your tone of voice, your eye contact. Um, these are gifts that traditionally you only had in person, you know, um, being on video is the second best thing. And I, I worry about SDRs relying too much on the screen share. Cause I feel like they're kind of tying some of their best storytelling gifts behind their back.

And, um, you know, you, you, your job is to make a connection with them. And, um, you know, oftentimes people will be like, Oh, cool. I'll check out your website and I'll let you know if that's interesting. You know, whereas like, like, Hey, I'm interested in you. I wanted to talk to you because of this thing. I know that's important to you and your organization. Um, and again, that might be, I might not be asking you for a meeting. I might be like, look, if you just want to send, you can literally send me back one sentence, John, you, if you're willing to answer this for me, that's what I'm curious about. Let me know. Um, also, if you're not interested in talking with me, that's a hundred percent.

Okay. Too. I do not take it personally. Let me know either way. Great. Having you as a friend on LinkedIn and I hope to talk to you soon, you know, because then if you respond and you're like, Oh, okay. Like I've given you permission. I was like, Hey, we could do this through DMS, you know, I'll tell people like, Hey, uh, you can email me back. You could send me a voice note. Like this doesn't have to turn into a conversation, but I actually am curious to know how many videos are you sending on average? If you had to ballpark it, you know, because I know if we're going back and forth and then it turns into something where there's a little bit of interest, I'm like, why don't we just hop on a call?

You know? Um, but it's like, there's gotta be a reason for you to hop on a call. And if the reason is, I just want to show you something that you could go find on my company website. I'm not going to set the demo. Yeah. No, I hear you. And I think that's what people don't understand. I think I forget the stat, right? It's 835, 57 or something like that. Like 8% of the way that we communicate is through the words that we use. 35 is the tonality and 57% is body language, give or take. And I know it's been kind of a bastardized stat, but the long story short is this, this body language is, is a lot, right? Cause tonality is good. Like, and that's where phone is better than email, but video is, is everything.

Cause they see, they hear that in a lot of ways feel that your emotion coming through that video. And so it's, it's the confidence to be you on that video and not be fake. Cause I actually think it, it disservice, there's a disservice in those automated campaigns where as soon as I can tell it's, it's fake or you're fake. Now it's actually a double negative for me at least. Right. So now you've got no reason to watch it. You know, it's not, you can just stop because you're going to, why would you put in more effort than I did it? Well, that's a great quote right there is why, if you're going to ask me to put in effort to respond to this and you didn't even put any effort to put this together.

Like that's on an equal trade right there. And you can't, you can't be asking people to put in more effort than you are when you're reaching out to them, which drives me nuts. I want to jump back to one thing you said earlier that I'm going to, again, kind of disagree with you on. Totally. But, um, cause I hear a lot of people talk about this on video about, uh, mistakes and, uh, leave the mistakes in. Don't worry. It, it humanizes you to not be perfect. Yes. But you should still kind of try to be perfect. And, um, I, I say that because a lot of what I do as a coach on video is I sit down with my clients and we watch a video and I make them sit in the audience seat. And I'm like, what is your opinion on that person?

What do you think about that performance that you just saw? And oftentimes people squirm. I've had more than one person tell me that reviewing themselves on video was the part of my thing that they hate the most and also the thing that was most helpful for them. And, uh, there's actually a really funny thing that I've noticed in my clients that I'm sure happens to all sorts of salespeople. They focus so much on that beginning. And I think it's telling that everybody's idea of personalization at scale is to just, you know, swap out a different, uh, name in the opening two seconds. But I'm like, how did your video, what happened to your energy at the end of the video? And I've actually seen so many calls with people where someone's like, big smile.

Hey, John, I'm reaching out to you because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you see all the confidence drain from their face because now they've gotten to the part where they actually have to ask for what they want. And they're not nearly as confident as they were at the beginning of the video. And I'll point that out to them and I'll go, Hey, look what happened to your face here in the last 10 seconds of the video. You lost all confidence in what you were saying. And the last image I got left with is a terrified person asking for 30 minutes who doesn't think he actually deserves it, you know? So let's try it again. And I need you to hang on to that confidence to the end of the video.

I need you to hang on to that joy. I need you to deliver that line. Like you actually think there's a chance they're going to say, yeah, because that person disappeared in the last 20 seconds of the video. And I don't even think most, I don't even think most reps watch the entire video that they make. But I was like, if you actually, if you compare those images side by side of like you at the beginning and you deer in the headlights at the end, they look like two completely different people and like, you got to hang on to that ending. And again, these are the little storytelling gifts that it can be a gift, a strong ending. It can be a fantastic gift. You end up and you're like, man, that guy seems nice.

That guy seems like cool person. I'm sure I'd love to talk to him. Whereas like that second one, maybe you don't even consciously realize it, but you're like, I don't think this is worth my time, you know, cause the speaker made it seem like it wasn't worth your time. And so I'm like, yeah, actually, if you spent a 10th of amount of time making sure that ending was strong and confident and inviting and welcoming and friendly as you did trying to figure out how to make it look like you personalized the beginning of the video when you actually didn't, you might see a lot more success by not changing any of the words at all. But, you know, there's that famous Maya Angelou quote, like people won't remember what you say, but they will remember the way you made them feel.

Oftentimes, yeah, we end that little frightened child inside of us shows his head at the end and is like, oh God, this sucks. And it's like, that's the thing you, I'm like, no, that was supposed to be your big moment. That's where, that's where they're going to be like, damn it, I am going to go talk to that guy. Gotta, you gotta, it's only 30 seconds. So you got to give them the best 30 seconds you got. Yeah. And actually you said there too, like, if you ever want to get improved, if you ever want to improve on something, man, record yourself doing it. Cause I, when I took the first time I took like speech, like, you know, like presentation skills training, I had been doing this for five years and I had never learned how to present.

And so I was like, all right, cool. You know, whatever I, maybe I should go do presentations. And they do the whole, you stand up in front of the room, you give like a five minute speech on you who, you know, random shit, whatever they record you. And then they take you into the back room and they show you the video. And I mean, I didn't even need a coach. Like as soon as I saw myself up on stage, I was like, what the fuck have I been doing for the past five years? Are you kidding me? So it's the same thing with listening to cold calls. Like it's like, it's the cringiest shit you've ever dealt with. But as soon as you hear it, you hear the tonality, you hear the, you know, ums, you hear the ahs.

And it's like the best mirror you could ever have to make improvements. Yeah. And sales leaders, they, you know, they're used to, um, big rooms, you know, they're used to a room where it's like, you got to talk real loud because the people in the back of the room need to hear you and you need big, giant facial expressions. And I'm like, Hey, actually this camera is 18 inches away from your face and you are closer to your prospect. The 99.9% of people will ever get to them. And these HD cameras pick up all these wonderful little nuances in your eye contact in, you know, your smile. Um, oftentimes you got to dial it back a little. And that was certainly what I did. I was, again, I was theater kid.

I watched myself on video and I'm like, this is too much. I'm giving my audience too much. I can actually dial it back, smile with your eyes, you know? And, um, again, it's like, I don't know if this is going to be what you want, but here's why I'm interested in asking you, you know, and, um, that conviction that I did my homework and that I know who you are and I know what your name is. I know what you do. And I, I know what the goals of your company are that confidence carries through. But, uh, yeah, I'll do that all the time or I'll be watching my video and like, I'll break eye contact the last second. I'm like, damn it. Wow. Damn it. It's not the guy who's out there. Yeah. You need to be the winner.

And then again, that goes back to the version of who are you when you win? Uh, and sometimes you got to pop on the jams, you got to pop on the music. Yeah. Put yourself back in that winning mindset that got you there before, but you got to go be that person for 30 seconds. And then as soon as it's done, you know, go crawl into your bottle and, uh, and, and go doubt your life like the rest of us do, but you got to give them 30 good seconds. All right. Last question. I think out of all the people I've asked this question to, I think you're the best suited to answer it. Uh, the, and it comes to the, um, the fake until you make it. What is your thought process on fake until you make it? Because a lot of these kids are trying to like, this goes back to like, I don't know the answer, but whatever being really authentic versus I need to show up to instill some confidence.

And even though I might not know what the fuck I'm doing, or I might want to crawl back into that bottle that you talked about, I still got to show up. So where are you at on the fake until you make it, uh, philosophy? Um, fake it till you make it. I actually think is pretty good advice on video. And I will say, cause I dealt with this before. So I just do an education technology sales for a while. So I was selling, uh, education software to universities, right? So oftentimes you're dealing with tenured professors. You're dealing with people who are, have way more education, way more accolades, way more money than you. You're a 23 year old person who's got to sell them this product. And they're like, what can I tell this professor?

You know, um, what am I going to tell them? Uh, I'm, I'm some 23 year old kid who doesn't know what he's doing. And I'm like, they look at you and they're not seeing all the things you don't know. They're seeing like, wow, look at this person. Look at this young, confident person working at this tech company. They must be pretty cool. They must have it all together. You know, um, if you've got a good camera shot and you're showed up and you're well-framed and you're in HD, you might look better on camera than, you know, the CRO you're trying to pitch who doesn't have a good shot and doesn't have all that. So it's like, um, you don't have to go explain that you don't know anything about anything.

You know, you have to ask the question with confidence and, um, there is power in being calm and collected and friendly and welcoming and well-framed on video. And, uh, yeah, if you're a young person who is worried because you're selling to people who are older and wiser and have more money than you, um, you being a young, confident person who looks good on camera is actually making them on some level probably be like, damn, wish that was me. I'm so old. Everyone can see that I'm not the, Oh, I used to be the guy, you know, maybe I'm not the guy. Like they've got all these insecurities too. And like, they're not thinking about you. They're thinking about like, Oh man, maybe we got to cancel this vacation with the kids.

Cause work is busy. And I don't know if, Oh man, you know, we brought in this new hire and they're not working out. I don't know if I'm going to fire this person. Um, we got this hospital bill. Now I got to pay for braces from like, there's all these things they're working about that has nothing to do with you. Um, it's actually kind of a narcissistic thing to think that everybody cares about our mistakes so much. They do not. I wish they, I wish people were in the comments roasting me because I make mistakes all the time. They care about themselves. So go talk about them. It's a 32nd video about them. You are just, uh, the person who's asking the question. So you're going to ask the question as best as you can be.

Go be your YouTube star self. I guarantee you, uh, they are a nervous wreck when the camera shuts off too. I love it. Awesome. Well, Chris has been a fun conversation, man. And I think, uh, I, I, you know, there was, there was a few points there, but I, I, I see your point on, on, on those. And I, but I think, again, it goes back to you being you, right? Like if you can own, like for me, it gives example, like if I do fuck up my confidence in myself, a fuck, like it's usually like a stutter or a something versus me. Oh my God, I was a train wreck and I'm going to throw this whole thing away and I'm going to keep going. But I do hear you as far as having a plan going in. And, uh, and I think it ultimately just comes back to authenticity, man.

Like if you are your authentic self and, and you give a shit enough to put in the work and you're not just spamming or whatever, just, you know, but you care to do a little bit of homework and put some context around your video, like you can kind of get comfortable around it and some are better than others. But I think as long as you're putting your authentic self out there, man, I think that's a, there's a lot worse things that could get people's attention, right? Oh yeah. And definitely if you're, if you're an SDR leader right now, make them just get it done and send it out. Cause they're, you're not making an Oscar winning film here. You're, you're asking a question and, uh, if you're going to make a video, you might as well make five.

So put it out there. Um, you know, don't even, don't even talk to me about mistakes until you've sent a few hundred of these out. There you go. Awesome. Chris, well, how can people find out more information about you, about what you're doing? Um, and tell the, tell the audience where they can find out more. Yeah. So easiest way to follow me, go on LinkedIn and ring the bell. Uh, Chris Bogue. I talk about video all the time, video content, video sales, video prospecting. Uh, also, uh, just how to, uh, put better, faster stuff out there. Um, if you want to buy my course, I have a course called the complete guide to selling on video. You can get that at Chris Bogue.io. And, uh, you can also find me on Spotify.

I have a show called Chris sells his soul. It's conversations with people who will help you work more creatively. Uh, you can check me out there and, uh, don't be a stranger. Shoot me a DM. I'm a chatty Kathy. Love it. And for everybody listening, uh, we'll put it in the show notes, but it's Bogue B O G U E. Uh, that's where you can find his website IO and his LinkedIn profile and everything else. And I highly recommend checking out video. Cause I think you're, I think the one thing you'd said there, you know, about the, the future proofing, uh, is, is real, right? Cause every single kid on Tik TOK, on Snapchat, on whatever, like they are just growing up in this world that you and I, at least I don't may never grew up with.

So it's now I'm having to adapt to it. Whereas these kids are going to be native. So even for these old folks out there, you better get on this train because it's not going to slow down, right? Yeah. They, they're, they're quite good at it. And actually that is the best part of my job is when I work with oftentimes an older person who they start doing it and they're like, Oh, I'm actually kind of good at this. And it's actually kind of fun. There you go. And who doesn't need more fun these days? So Chris, thanks again for coming on, man. I appreciate it. Thanks, John. And everybody else. Thank you all for listening. Hopefully you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. And like I always say at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Cause no matter how bad your day's going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I'll see you on the other side. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day, just like you go to jbarrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today.

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