Jaime Diglio: Redefining Sales Success with Moneyball Leadership

the way you're pitching it, you're missing the mark 75% of the time because you want it the way you want it. You're not thinking about the buyer and what they need. Would you rather be right or would you rather win? This is what I always say. It's like ego is the enemy here. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And today's episode is with my good friend, Jamie Diglio, who has been on the show before. Now, for those who don't remember, she is a high performance trainer and coach to leaders and sales teams, along with being a TEDx speaker, which is on my bucket list, sales coach for Harvard Business School, and now an author of her new book, Moneyball Leadership, which is why I had her on the show to talk about.

She was also named as one of the top 100 powerful women in sales by Demandbase and Women in Sales, which is awesome. Now, this conversation focused on what she outlines in her new book and how so many of the current techniques and approaches to sales and sales management are so outdated. We talked about self-awareness and what each of our individual motivational drivers are. She has this great quote about how once you see yourself, you can sell yourself. We also dove into measuring what matters and what doesn't. And what she has coined is her version of ROI, which is all about return on interactions. This was such a fun conversation packed with concepts and frameworks that I think we can all use to be better versions of ourselves while also becoming better sellers on the way.

Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's make it happen. Jamie, welcome back to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. How are you doing? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing fantastic. It's good to see you again. Always. I always love seeing you, JB. I appreciate that. It's always fun to... I mean, actually, it's been cool with the Bryant stuff down at WRD to keep bumping into you down there, but also just seeing what they're doing from a sales education standpoint, which is really encouraging in a lot of ways. It actually might lead into our conversation today about AI and everything else, because I think the... My hope is that with all the grunt work being taken away, which is where sales have to get really truly developed, if you will, that it'll actually go to the university and really be focused on the fundamentals at the early, early stages, like most other professions.

I think Brad and the stuff he's doing down there is absolutely fantastic. Yeah. And they just opened their new center, their sales center. So a whole new part of their campus. Yeah. It's gorgeous. It's really exciting. Yeah. Totally. So I'm bummed I'm going to miss you next week down there, but we'll get to go. So... Yeah. We'll figure it out. But I think last time we talked, you hadn't released the book yet, right? So this was before the pre-book. I think last time we talked was when I did my TEDx. Yes. That's right. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Last... I think that was... Was that last year? Yeah. It was last year. Yeah. So you're checking off those here for you, right? You got the TEDx. You got the book.

You got... Now, you know, what's next? What's next for you, Jerry? What's the next thing on the horizon? No. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe a podcast. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. But the book wasn't... I wasn't planning on doing a book. But after the TED talk, a lot of people were like, do you have a book? And so that was what made that was what made that the book a goal for me this year. Yeah. Do you find it odd that a book is still kind of the benchmark for, you know, getting to that next level? Because I've always had just this... I don't... Maybe it's just because I don't read and I don't... And most books I read are just total fluff and bullshit. And so I have this disdain for like, just books in general.

And sometimes I see somebody up on stage who's got a book, but they're full of shit. I'm like, ah, just because they have a book, they're getting better billing than me. But do you... Like, why do you think that the book is still kind of the calling card, if you will, to get up on stage to be the kind of the big Tina type of thing? Well, I mean, I agree with you in so many ways, because it's like, what is... To me, it's like, what are people going to do? You can write a book and you can read a book, but like, it's all about what do you do with it, right? And so I think it's just because most people don't write books, right? Or in the past, historically, people don't... You know, a very small, select few people would write a book.

So when you put yourself out there, and you form an opinion, you put it out there, I think that that makes people go, okay, well, they must have something that's important to say. Yeah, I think you're right. These days, it's, you know, it's a lot easier to self-publish and everything else. So there's more, but still, it's very infrequent that, you know, that you see somebody take that next step to document their, you know, what is in their head. Right. Yeah. And it was, it's interesting. So my book is super quick read. And it is, it's, it's not filled with a lot of theory. Intentionally, it is like, it's stories, it's my own journey, but stories of examples of customers I've worked with, and just like the way that I coach people.

And what I, the best feedback I've got from the book so far is that it feels like you're having a conversation with you, Jamie. Yeah, it's not, it's like, um, it, and I met, I wanted it to be that way. I wanted it to feel real. Um, and not cause so many, I see so many people like have this, all these books behind them too. Right. So they have this library of books. I actually write, wrote about, um, a story about this, um, about a, uh, a really, really toxic leader who had all the leadership, the right leadership books behind, behind them. Um, right. So when you get on the, the zoom, when you see it and it's like everything that, that they, um, they do is the complete opposite of what the books tell you to do.

And so my thing is, is like, it's about the application. You know, it's a book is supposed to book if, unless it's, how do you actually take something from it and, and change something, change what you're doing, right. Change your behavior, create a new habit, think differently. Um, and so I think that that's one of the challenges, but we've got so, we've got more books out there than ever before. And more people that are just confused. And, and lost than ever before. It is true. And, and it feels like, you know, a lot of people consume content just to consume content and it, cause it feels good. Right. Oh, I read that book. I did that. You know, I, I, I set up on, I, I signed up for this course, but I'm kind of on the Gary V track on this, which is, you know, I'd rather, I'd rather you not pay any attention to my content and just go out there and execute.

Like, I honestly, like, you know, if you're, he's, he actually even says it, he's like, my fear is I have such diehard followers that, that they're consuming everything I put out there, but they're not fucking doing anything. Like they're literally not applying any of it because they're just consuming it. Yeah. It's, it's about putting, it's like less is the new more. I always say this, right. It's like, cause it's, if you pick, if you try to do everything, you're not going to get anything done. So it's choosing, you know, it's choosing your, you know, your direction, choosing the things you're going to do. And that quite frankly, that's a lot of what I talk about in the book is it's about how do you hone in?

Everybody's overwhelmed and drowning in, in information. And so what we aim to do, if we want to take, you know, take our life, take our performance to the next level, to where the direction we want to go in, we have to hone in on the 20% that is, is, is who we uniquely are in the direction where to go in and drop the 80%. The 80% that's like weighing you down, that's getting you all like stirred up and getting you off course. And so it's about deciding and, you know, measuring what matters and that, that's the piece. And so if everything matters, nothing matters. Yeah. I mean, it's a fact. And a lot, I mean, a lot of what you're talking about in this book is, is breaking the norms of, of kind of, especially in the sales and the leadership side of the house.

So, you know, I think what we're still reeling from, which is, you know, a 1980s mentality of sales, right? Like boiler room style, like get after it, like numbers. And it, and it, I don't cry, it's all saddens me that we're still in a numbers game or still come across organizations that have that, just, just do the numbers. Right now I do think COVID, not COVID, I think 2023 was at least for the SaaS and the tech industry, a bit of a wake up call. On that because, you know, as soon as interest rates went through the roof and everybody realized that money wasn't free anymore, you know, it was like a, Ooh, it was a gut punch to the whole industry. And I think, you know, VCs and leadership kind of said, Oh, okay.

You know, profitable growth. We should probably take a step back, slow down to speed up. Like you said, but why do you think that with all the evidence and we'll get into it and for those of you listening, it's money, it's, it's called money ball leadership, right? Yeah. Which is cool. They were going to get into it a minute, but why do you think that? Historically we're, we're still in a lot of that, that we're trying to get out of that mess, but it's, it's almost like impossible to get out of the mess that we put ourselves in from a sales and a metric standpoint. Why do you think that it's not shippled faster? And do you think it's, it's going to be a forcing function here soon? Or is it kind of always going to be part of what it is?

Well, I think, um, in terms of the shifting and like the challenge in sales organizations is you have a lot of in the, especially in bigger organizations, you have lots of people who have, they have a stake in, you know, whatever technologies have been brought in, right. Or whatever new, um, functions. And so you have lots of people who are forcing, like, they want their thing to be the thing. And if you've got so many people that are, um, in these organizations, you've got so many types of technology that's, um, sales, you know, um, sales tools that are piled on. And it's like, this just, it's overwhelming, but nobody, everybody wants their thing to win and everybody's kind of fighting against it.

So you have this like web of, of just like mess of just, uh, all these expectations and these, um, tools and how do you unwind it? Because it's like you, it's like, you're going to try and stop and change the tire while the cars go in 90 miles an hour. And so now you have this already existing, um, you know, list of, uh, technologies and spend and like, what do you remove? And how do you, who's addressing that? If the people who need to address it are the ones that have fought to get it in there. So they'd have to actually be able to say, Hey, wait a minute, things have changed. Maybe this wasn't the right decision or this isn't, you know, so you have to have this ability to sort of pause. And I don't think that that is something that, that in most organizations, people are willing to say and admit to.

Yeah. And I think that's probably the weird people. Yeah. Nobody likes to do it the wrong or that they need a mistake because, you know, quite frankly, though, a lot of people are probably scared to get fired and make that, you know, if they, if they are open with it, but the color component to it, I guess, is a huge factor here. And obviously starts from the top. Right. And it flows down. So, well, and the other part of it too, is you have in a lot of situations, you have people that are putting in their, putting in their, their stack of sales enablement. They're all their technologies, but they aren't, they maybe have never been an actual seat in sales. So, uh, you have people recommending, so they're, they're like, they're trying to create order out of what traditionally might feel like chaos because a sales, a sale or a real sales interaction is chaos.

Right. It's like, it's, it's your, and it's always different. And it, and so there's not a super lot of logic because people are not logical. Um, buyers are not logical. Um, they're predictable, uh, but it's, it's feels messy. And so that, I think that organizations have just continued to put more and more layers to try to process it. But what it's actually done is it's weighed everybody down and you've got, you know, you're making people average. Really making sellers average because they're spending, you know, you'd be there, they're being measured on things that are not the things that are going to actually drive, drive the pipeline. And in, in, in most instances, they're being measured on how they're, you know, their inputs into the, into the, um, you know, whatever technology they're using.

The, but you know, so a little bit of a, I'm curious, there's a interesting contradiction a little bit based on the title of your book and your comments on, on chaos and how the sales interaction is chaos. Right. Cause money ball theoretically, just from a, from a macro standpoint is about putting science and really figuring out which metrics to measure and then putting the pieces together. And I always use the money ball example of science versus art and how science can only get you so far. You still, you have to have the art and the beautiful example in money ball. But in money ball, the movie is Billy bean. I mean, he takes a group of ragtag throwaway players and, and puts them together and gets almost to the fight, you know, their world series, but they don't.

And then he goes to the red socks and the red socks are like, Hey, we'll give you, you know, whatever you want, bring your old and he turns them down and they effectively take his money ball mentality. But then they add two variables that could not possibly be measured. David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez. I mean, yes, they can be measured, but. Clutch like money ball doesn't believe in clutch hits, but you not tell me I lived through it. David Ortiz is the most clutch fucking player I've ever seen in my life. And so it was like the science got us there and figure out what to measure, but they needed the art to get to that level to the final level. So walk through science and money ball as it relates to sales and sciencing out a team and a structured approach versus the chaos of the interactions.

Yeah, so I'm, I am fully with you. It is the art, but it's also about the measuring when we think about the science. When we think about the science is what I'm talking about is what, when we, the things we can't see, we're not technically measuring, which is people's motivations, drivers, values, right? The things that they're uniquely good at. And typically we don't in most sales organizations, that's not something that is measured. And because we don't measure it, we're not capitalizing on it in how we're elevating. It's like, you know, the difference between, you know, you've got one, one seller who really in this interaction is going to need a pat on the back. Another one is going to need to kick in the ass.

But if you give the one that's the pat on the back that needs to kick in the ass, you're not going to get, and so it's understanding that self data around a person, a person's data, and then understanding that for your players. But then, then once you have that, yes, then it becomes, it's their own, the art that they're creating and how they're, they're having their own unique interactions with the customer. But the, but the measuring piece is understanding that everything we do, right, as humans, right, it's all tied to how are we showing up every moment of the day. And everybody's driven by different things. And most people don't even know what their drivers are. So what we do, what we do in part of the Moneyball process is we're, we're pulling out that data for someone so they can see it themselves.

It's their, so they can own it, their own, their own data, right? And then also then their leader and the people that are working with them, they then know what that data is as well. And so once that you have that data at a, at a, at a bigger level, you're able to then have new insights. Cause most, when you understand the things that your people need, um, on a real, real, real time level, you can make better decisions about the types of training and other things that you want to invest in. Most sales organizations are just like very one size fits all. They're just like, Oh, let's do a negotiation, um, training. And it's like, it falls flat because that's actually not the problem. And they don't even know what the problem is.

Cause they haven't measured the, the specific needs of what the individuals have, the individuals needs. And so that's the, that's the, the measuring piece, the science piece to it. So, I mean, how do you see that, the challenge, right? Um, and I think in workshops and those types of things we can, we can, we can get to this, but I mean, you talk about cultivating the Moneyball mindset, right? Where you get self-awareness is what do I really want? You know, who do I want to be and what's getting in my way? You know, but that's almost like a, uh, psychiatry. You know what I mean? Like that's almost like a therapy session in a lot of ways. And it's an individual thing, right? Because what, what I want, I mean, to your point, I don't think a lot of people know what they want.

So could you help me figure out like, what's the process you use to, to help somebody figure out what they really want? Cause I, and then we'll get to how to, how to scale this in any way, shape or form, you know, because I got 50 reps, you know, how do I do this without 50 reps? But I'm curious to the one of what do I really want? Cause I think if you would have asked that to 10 people, nine out of 10 would give you some vague answer or not really know what they want or some superficial thing that they think they want. So how do you wake people up to help them understand what they really want? Uh, well, first of the, first of all is most people that you'll talk to, um, will say that they're dissatisfied with their career, with their, you know, promotion, with their salary, with their performance, whatever.

Most will say they're dissatisfied. And when I say, okay, so what would satisfaction be? What would that look like? And to your point, they don't have an answer. So what part of this is, is really their own personal accountability for where, where do they want to go? And let's do the work to figure that out, right? Helping them to articulate what is the thing that they would want next. Um, whether that's that promotion, you know, what is the direction they're interested in? And part of this is giving them the foundation to own their own shit. Right? Because there is no career fairy that comes down. And, um, and so, and even if they do, you could be the best leader, but you know, give them best opportunities.

But if it's not aligned to what you want, it's not going to, it's, it doesn't matter. So the process is really helping that person to identify. So we use, you know, a behavioral assessment where we can understand and identify what their, their core strengths are and the way that they're, they're motivated and driven. And then I take, so from that, right, like you're anchoring on these, these words that are your strength words. Um, and then I, I have a different series of exercises that I make the individuals go through so that they can pull that data, like almost like a 360 real time from people in their, in their network. Um, asking them for insights about, you know, what it's like working with me, because one of the challenges we have is that, uh, we, we only, our brains are wired to only notice the things we're not good at.

Right. And we are not good at understanding and seeing what we are good at. And so we have to pull that out of the person. And so, uh, if we're always focused on what we're not good at, if you know anything about sort of just, you know, like how, how do you become successful? It's like, you can't become successful if you're focusing on everything that you're not good at. It doesn't work that way. You're working against it. So you're actually, most people are working against themselves every moment of the day. And we want people to be working in alignment with who they are in the direction they're going. And so just helping them to sort of see themselves back with this self data. And what we do is through this whole series of exercises, um, we under help them understand and see themselves more effectively.

So then once they see themselves, they can sell themselves more effectively. Right. Because we could be really good at selling other things, but we're not as good at selling ourself and how we're showing up. So it instantly gives the person feels lighter because they realize that their, their way to win their way to be successful is to do it. Is it, is it uniquely theirs? All of us have our own winning formula. So once we teach that back to you, pull it out of you, help you see it, teach it back to you and show you how to communicate and lead in that, what I call your leadership language every moment of the day. Um, so in every interaction with customers, right, it's, it's, um, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a strengthening your foundation, um, through this data process, right.

That most people aren't measuring to then amplify the results, um, and how they're showing up in, you know, every, every conversation they're having. What do you, how far do you look out when it comes to getting down to people where, what they want to be and what they really want? Right. Because there's one thing about, I want that promotion, right? Like I want to get from this part to this part of my job. I can see it. That's the person's job. I want, you know, it's a super clear cut. Then there's like the vision of your lifestyle, which I tend to try to bring people through, which is kind of the five year question. Like shut your eyes and just forget about job, forget about money for a second, but just think what, what do you want your lifestyle to be inside of you?

Like who the people you want to be hiding around, where you want to be living, what kind of house, what kind of family, those, you know, those, those things are important to you. Um, and then like, once you've got that vision now, you can open your eyes and back into what it's going to help you get. So is there, is, is everybody individual? Like when you go through this exercise, are, are some people super short term focused, but other people are long or do you really try to force them to kind of think bigger? Um, so we do, when we do these programs, cause we do them in group. So it's a combination of group settings. So in a group group coaching altogether and then individual. So, um, most people say they want something, but then we have to peel back and ask, why does it, why is it that they want that?

Most at most actually don't know. They think it's the thing. They think it's the thing they're supposed to do because it, you know, it was some, you know, it was, it's been modeled for them. And this is what gets people, you know, 10, 20 year, 30 years into their career and going, Oh my God, what am I doing? Who do I want to be? How did I become this? Yes. And, and so what we're trying to do is get, get people to feel confident in being who, who, you know, the path that they, so this happens a lot with sellers I work with who feel like the next step is that they should be a leader. They're getting pressured that they should be moved into a leadership position. They think it's the right thing to do, even though they're like, ah, I don't think that this is, you know, for me right now, but they're afraid if they don't take the promotion, how is that going to look?

That means you're not ambitious. That means this, like, so this is a war room leadership philosophy is like, is that if leaders, if they look at you negatively, because you say you don't want to be a leader, you don't want to be in a leadership position. You're like, I'm happy to do, you know, crush it. But yeah, I know that that's not a right fit for me. And, and, and celebrating the fact that that person is, is aware enough, right, that that is not a path they want to go, instead of looking at them negatively about it, like it's very, it's very one size focused. And so that's a, that's an example, um, and really helping the person to sort of, to think through, uh, okay, here's the next thing, but then what does that lead to next?

And so we're helping them to look out and go, okay, this potentially oftentimes it's like, well, you need to do this to be the stepping stone to that. Maybe they want to be an entrepreneur, right? And it's like, great. So let's, let's get you the skill here and then we'll have you go over here so that then you can be, you know, lead your own company or be, you know, a COO or whatever, whatever it is you want to do. So we're really, I mean, we are taking it from an individual because each individual is different and it might seem like people are often like, well, how do you scale that? Right. Here's the challenge is every time people, every time, I mean, who do you hear that from? You hear it from sales leaders, some leaders who don't have time in general, like they don't even have time to coach, forget about getting to the nuances and the details of their reps, you know, personal wise, if you will.

Right. But if you think about it, how can we not have time for that? Right. When, if that person you're paying X, Y, you know, whatever you're paying them and this work of letting them, when I talk with, um, with most in most organizations, I talk with one of the biggest challenges I hear from sellers, um, is they don't feel seen, heard, valued. Totally. Right. They might not say that out loud, but that's what they're right there. What am I doing here? Right. Nope. They just care about getting the deal in. I'm, I know. And so doing this work of helping them see how the work that they do is tying every day is tying to the place they want to go and how that's going to help them build, you know, build their skill is so critical.

Because it, it basically amplifies everything else that that person does in, in, in the entire, in, in, in the entire organization. Um, so it's like, how can you not do it? And so you're basically what we're doing today is like, we're creating these organizations where we're, we're taking, cause we're, we're, we don't understand what drives people and the people don't know what drives them. So they don't have the language for it. Um, we're, we're making everybody average. We're taking good sellers and we're bringing them down. I know this because that was what happened to me. No, there's no question about it. Uh, and it, so it can be scaled, but it, it has to be done in pockets, right? So you, you, you, you start the practice, you create, you create it, you see the buzz people go.

Anytime you, if you say, oh, Leah, we're going to roll this out to everybody. Like this is, this is not work for everybody. Like this is any, it should be, but not everybody's open to it. But what we do in most of the organizations we work with is that we, we start with this, with a group. They see the success and then they go, okay, we need to do this with more. So then we just stagger it, but you can get through with these groups. You can take a whole bunch of them through it. Then they have that foundational learning, um, about themselves very quickly. So, and it is scalable and it is, it's actionable and it's real results. So, um, but it's just, again, it's not something that traditionally we focus on.

Cause you say it's like, this is, this is a matter. I don't, not my responsibility to figure out this person's why. Well, if you have a whole bunch of people that are lost in your organization and you want them to be a peak performance, making you money. It doesn't work that way. Yeah. And it's also, you know, we all get caught in and I did too. And thankfully those two very distinct, um, things in my life that happened that forced me out of it. But the, the whole, what you're supposed to do, right? Like we all have this construct that, okay, we're supposed to go to school. We're supposed to get a job. We're supposed to work at that job. We're supposed to. And, and you kind of wake up one day and you're like, wait a minute, what happened to my life?

You know what I mean? Like where, when, when did I stop doing what I wanted to do? And, and, and just did what I was supposed to do. And there's a, there's a beautiful scene in, um, you know, up in the air with George Clooney. Yes. Yes. Remember one of the first firings when he brought, uh, what's her name in to like sit in on with a firing. And the guy was like, you know, you dah, dah, dah, dah. And he's like, Hey, um, so what did you, um, says here you went to culinary school. You know, what's that all about? He's like, ah, you know, whatever. He's like, no, no, no. You didn't just go to culinary school. Like you went to the, like you interned at the whatever chef. So that means you have a true passion for that.

Cause not, you know, anybody just wants to cook, isn't going to go there. And you spent a solid part. So when did you, and I, you asked that question, which I think is so beautiful. He goes, so how much did they pay you originally to give up on your dreams? And he takes a breath and he goes, $32,000 a year. Yeah. And he goes, you know what? This is maybe your opportunity to go back and find out what you should have been doing in the first place. Right? Like what, what your true why is. And I think that process that you go through, does it sometimes uncover like a misalignment where, and it, and it is so obvious where you're like, you look, you shouldn't be here. You know what I mean? Like the reason you're struggling isn't because you suck in general.

It's because this isn't your path. This isn't your why you're like, this isn't going to lead you to where you want to go. Do those conversations come up? They do happen, but oftentimes what we do instead is with your great example. I love that example is we help them to think back to, we'll use that. We'll riff on that. Um, that example is like, if you went to culinary school, we would uncover that. And we go, how do we think about using and leaning into your skill around culinary, like that passion? How do you use that and how you sell and how do we bring that to back? And so that, cause one of the other challenges is that most, most sellers, right, they're tough and taught a script. And we usually go in and we don't care what sales methodology they use.

Um, they've got one, but they're all super predictable. Like they sound the same. And so what we do is we, that we, you know, money balling it is like, we make, we take you from predictable to memorable. And what makes you memorable is the things that are uniquely yours. So in that example, it would be like, all right. Being able to show that color of, Hey, you know, back when I went to a culinary school, right. You know, I was a cook or, you know, how I think about it, like as a recipe. Um, and you know, and so using, helping, giving them language that they can really lean into because it's at their core. And when they do that, it just like opens them up so they can see that they can use those skills.

That they learned it to be, you know, you know, it'll accelerate their performance in what they're doing today because they've lost it. And so what we're trying to do is bring it back. We're trying to bring people back to themselves. And I mean, it's amazing to see, like I had a client last week, this one's a leader, but just like, I think he's only gone through a few sessions and he's like, my whole, my whole reframe of how I look at everything and how I'm supporting my team and how I'm engaging with them. And in the things I'm not worrying about the things I'm leaning into the questions I'm asking. He's like, you know, I don't know. He's like, people are asking me what's different. You're different.

What is it? And it's like, this is a repetitive thing we hear with people who have gone through the program because it's just like, it's a, it's like a weight has been lifted off of you because you're showing up as you. And because you're doing that. Right. And you're not like covering, you're more effective because, you know, think about, you know, think about salespeople. You can tell when they're not being real. Oh, a hundred percent. Like authentic. I don't know. There's a, I posted on LinkedIn. It was like, you know, uh, 40 cookies, right? Chinese food, that type of stuff. Like, uh, most of them are, you're going to be hungry in 10 minutes. Right. So this one just yesterday, I posted it and said, authenticity is your superpower.

And I, and I, first of all, for me, I've always, you know, I don't fundamentally understand how people aren't authentic because I get so much harder to be fake. Uh, but I think we have, we're scared to be. So why do you think everybody has this facade that you're trying to be something that they're fundamentally not because it's so obvious when they are. Well, I think also we're, cause you've, you've been an entrepreneur now. I mean, you've been out of a corporate for a long time. You're way too. Yeah. And I am unemployable. Like there's even been acquisitions conversations, by the way, like right as I get to the end of the acquisition, I'm like, no, can't, no, can't have a boss. Not going to be there.

Can't go into an office. It's just not me. Like I am, I'm allergic to the corporate environment. Well, big. So it feels like it would be hard to not be yourself. But when you're in these environments where there's like an expectation, I mean, where everybody dresses the same, they say the same things, they use the same length lingo. Um, being different is hard in an organization because unfortunately the way, what, what will happen is they'll, you know, they'll look at it as, you know, your differences, it should be your power. And this is where it's backwards in corporate America. Um, is it actually is your differences, your power, but there may, they want everybody to conform. And so if you go outside the line, you're looked at as a risk.

Um, and so most people are afraid. I mean, this is why on LinkedIn, I mean, you've got, you know, majority of your corporate people are ghosters. Like they're, they're on there. They're not posting anything for God. They're scared to death that they might say something that might, you know, somebody will think that it's about them or, um, and so it's really hard. It's really hard. Um, however, um, once you can give that person, they're, they're helping them see that how they can be it and give them tools and scripts and ways to practice it. And we're talking about salespeople here. So it's like all about how can you have the best return on your interactions with your customers? Because the more memorable you can be to your customers, that's going to just continue to make you more successful.

And then you can be whoever you want. Uh, but it's helping them to see how they can break the mold. And this is where, and I'm sort of educating sales leaders is like you in, if you want to win, if you want your sellers to be, you know, to be listened to, you have got to give them these skills to help them show up different because it's all noise. It's all noise. And it's mostly in our heads too. Uh, and it's mostly in our heads. Yes. Um, you just mentioned return on interactions. Uh, and I think in the book or at least some of the notes I saw that you talk about how to the ROI of it. And so I'm very curious. First of all, when you, let's talk about what is an interaction. Second of all, what's the ROI of it.

And third of all, how the fuck do you measure the interaction and ROI of the ROI of interactions? Cause it sounds like a pretty subjective thing. Cause every interaction is going to be different. So talk to me. What do you, what helped me, help me define what an interaction is in this, in this context. Sure. So I, what, what I talk about within the money ball framework is to, to move into, you know, become a money ball leader, leader, become a money ball seller. It's about looking at the problem in a different way, uncovering the hidden value in yourself and the people around you, and then mastering the new ROI. So the new ROI is return on interactions. So how are we making money versus losing money in every conversation?

So how I define an interaction, right? Is any conversation, right? Are you in the conversation? Are you present? Are you listening for their listening? Right? How are you asking thoughtful questions? So I have a whole framework that I teach sellers on how to decode, um, how to decode the buyer in asking specific questions and putting certain language in, um, in the conversation that's going to excite them. Yeah. So, uh, there's, and I can, I can share that with you if you'd like. Uh, but it's, so it's, um, so basically how you can anticipate, what are the words? Have you heard of love language before? Yep. Of course. You have? Yeah. So every person has a love language. Well, just explain for the audience just in case they don't, but I understand.

Like, right. So like, so essentially there's words and things that naturally you're drawn to, uh, that you like to hear based off of your own hard wiring, your own personality, your own background. It's called lovely. I don't call it love language, right? Um, call it return on interactions. So there's four kinds of people. I, I'm super dumbing it down because this is the easiest way. Um, there's fast people. There's feel people. There's focus people and facts, people facts, right? Just get to the bottom line. So knowing you, I would, so let me, we'll, we'll, we'll decode it. So, um, the fast people and the facts people are people who talk fast. They get to the point, right? Um, you and I are both on that side.

Right. Yes. To the point. Fast people are big innovators. The big thinkers, they're people, people, they're engagers. Right. But the facts people are, are people who they still talk really fast. They get to the bottom line, but they're really about the process. Walk me through the, tell me the bottom line. How is this going to make me money? Right. So that's the difference. Right. And usually people, people, people, um, tend to sweat, like be in one of these. The, that's their first, that's their first place where they go with everything. Right. It was like, what's the bottom line. What's the big idea. Right. And then on the other side, you've got people who are feel people and focus people.

These feel people and focus people are the way you would know them is they're more quiet. They wait to speak or wait to be asked to speak. Right. Um, the feel people are, the feel people are people who are all about, I want to feel connection. Before I do anything, I need to feel like you're on board. Is this, are we a part of the team? Is everybody involved? Right. Does everybody feel like we're, we're moving in the right direction? And then the focus people, while also more reserved, they don't really care about connecting with people. They just want to know the steps. They're like, just tell me the steps and how to get this done. Um, so I always say as a person who is like a fast thinker, right?

I need people who are, get the steps and focus. All right, Jamie focus. We can have all these great ideas, but we need to focus on. Right. I love these people. However, think totally different. Right. So if you are a seller and a lot of us sellers are up in that fast quadrant. Um, and we're talking to a customer who is a tech person. They're probably going to be in that focus. And so how do you then, right? So instead of being like, Hey, I have this really good idea. You want to be able to play. All right, listen, we're going to be working together. You know, I want to make sure, you know, I'm going to always have an agenda for us. And here are the steps to lay out of what we're going to do next.

And if we do it the opposite way, we're going to, we're going to struggle. So the power of this, and mostly a lot of leaders are in that facts quadrant. So the people that are in the facts quadrant, right? They're talk fast, get to the bottom line. Um, and if their team are feel people who want to feel like they're part of the team, but they're only being talked about about bottom line, there's, there's a misalignment. And this is why if you take, you know, look at each quadrant is like 25%. This is why if you don't understand this skill and you don't understand your own self-awareness, you're missing the mark in 75% of your conversations. Yeah, it is. It is. I, there's a point in every sales rich career where I talk about catching your sales group.

And what I say that it's, it's the, what you're doing is I think almost like a, a deliberate forcing coaching of catching that sales group, because I talk about how it goes from when you stop pitching your solutions and you start having conversations, you know, sharing more about what the client needs, then you actually do your commission check. And I, that's usually when your commission checks, I just go to the room. And so, you know, trying to expedite the, cause I've always, I've always shit on scripts and like, uh, gross, but I, you know, if I were to really reflect back scripts are, they are, they have their purpose. Like you don't know what you don't know. I'm going to put you on the phone.

I'm going to give you something to read because otherwise you'd just be throwing up all over yourself. You don't even know what to say, but it's almost like everybody gets stuck in those scripts or get stuck in that play because that's what they're able to do. And they don't evolve out of it. And without leadership really digging into the details of, you know, why they're doing things, how they fit into the bigger picture, what really motivates them. They're always going to be stuck in that hamster wheel, basically just doing whatever they're told, whether it's a template, an email, a cadence, a, you know, advanced qualification, medic, you know, that type of bullshit. It's just, how do you get them to wake up?

And basically unplug, you know, I'm like, we're around with this a lot, but unplug with the matrix, right? Yeah. It's like, you're in the matrix, you're doing the thing. Okay. So, and then you got to kind of get woken up and plug that unplug to say, Oh shit. Wait a minute. There's a way better thing going on here. Right. A thousand percent. And it is, it's about a reframe. It's like helping you to see, but then see it with new eyes that are aligned more to your, like how you can see your own strengths. So we do give a seat, we give a lot of scripts, but with this, the difference with the scripts are in these scripts, we're, we're having them interject or add in their words. So for example, like if that, I'll give you mine.

So like my, um, this is one of the scripts we, we tell, we have people, our clients when they're talking to a customer or they're talking with a new person they're going to be working with. Hey, John, you know, we're going to be, we're going to be working together. I just want you to know that the number one thing I value is courage. So that means that when we're working together and I'm going to speak up, even if it's something that's maybe, you know, a little uncomfortable, I'm going to be absolutely open to trying new things. And if I don't know the answer, I'm going to tell you, I don't know, I'm going to figure it out, but I'm going to tell you, I don't know. So, so sorry to interrupt. I, um, it just clicked.

You just said values. Yes. I am all in on values as actually the core foundation of all of this. Right. Where you, cause you said, look, I value, uh, what was it? Courage. Courage. Right. So if I value courage, if I value trust, if I, if I, and I know these are just talking points for me, like you bring them through the exercise of like, how do you feel when you don't have courage? Oh, I feel a bit of reactions. Okay. So that means yes. Charge. So do you go through that with this win analysis, what I want, right. Um, for what I need is, do you go through, like, have you reset your core values any, any time soon and then build from them or, or do you back into them a little bit? No, no. And this is the core value exercises at the core of everything that we do.

So it's a combination of most people don't actually know. And sometimes it changes, but we do an exercise where we, we, we make them pick one, which drives them crazy, but we're doing is we're building the scaffolding of their leadership language. So everything comes from your own, your own unique core values. And then how do you then inject that language into your interactions all the time? So what we're doing is that compounded effective number one, most people don't do this. So you show up memorable, right? And then two people understand you more. If I, now that I just said that that's my core value, I mean, it kind of makes sense as to why I do what I do. And that's why I have to listen to my own stuff and go, all right, Jamie, if you're being quiet right now, are you, you're, you're basically going against your value of speaking up.

And so it's like, it forces me. And that's what we teach. Mm-hmm. It's funny because I did this inadvertently without even knowing it really. I think I've read and I have to go back and read it just to make sure I got it from there, but it was, um, thinking grow rich, right? By the poem yourself. And I, somewhere in there, it talks about like your core values or a line name or whatever it is, writing them down. And I remember early in my career, 25 years old, I wrote down my guiding principles to success. And it was 12 guiding principles and, you know, work hard and smart. Like everybody says, you got to work smart. Well, shut up. You have to work your fucking ass off. You know, what goes around comes around.

Um, all these different words. And I kind of wrote out like what the mentioned mess that I created them out and I put them up in my desk. And what was interesting was again, without really being taught or trained on any of this, any time I would hire somebody, when, when it was obvious that they were kind of a final candidate, I would give them my, I would give them my guiding principles. And I'd say, look, here's the deal. I'm not saying you have to have these values. I'm not saying you have to have these guiding principles, but just know whenever you get feedback from me, whenever you interact with me, this is where it's coming from. And so a comfortable with that, then, cause like, you know, that's why I work hard and smart was on the top of the list.

Because if you go home at five o'clock, I mean, if you're crushing your numbers, fine. Do whatever the fuck you want to do. I don't give a shit. But if you go home, if you show up at nine and you leave at five, I'm not going to react to that very well because that's one of my core values is effort is work ethic is, is, is grit. And if you're just showing up just to catch a paycheck, you're not going to last year very well. Cause my value says that is not what this is all about. And it got me to find the right people. I actually used it all more as a hiring tool. Eventually when I noticed the impact that it was having. Yeah. Do you see the same effect? It's the same. Yeah. It's, it's the same thing when, in terms of giving people the language.

So once you actually on, remember I said earlier that people like, they don't even know they can't see their, they can't see themselves. So I always say, it's like, if you could hear how, if you like, listen to how you're talking about yourself, but then you hurt you. You could hear how other people see you game changer. Right. And so what we're doing is we're helping them to see themselves. And then what, what's so I love about this whole process. And then it's like, you literally, once you understand their values and their strengths and like a little bit about them, you then can like, you literally see that every decision that they actually make is around that. It oftentimes it's just, they don't have language for it.

So they feel off. They don't feel as centered and focused. Um, and so one of the things I would say about your principles, which I love it, a way to make it, to take it to the next level would be. And what I mean by that is right. Like, so you had a description next to each one about what that means, because oftentimes like I, I said, I value courage. So if I just said, I value courage, that could mean a million different things. And so too often we leave it at the word and we don't break it down. So once we give it meaning, that's the power because your meaning of it, it could be different than my meaning and understanding. And so when I back to, um, how you're talking about these interactions, we're talking about the mastering interactions, right?

We're really looking for meaning. We're really to understand like the listening, being present, um, very simple things, but are very much overlooked in terms of how we're building compounded interest in our interactions and how we're showing up consistently and clearly. So your, all of your employees, because you, they know this about you, your guiding principles, even if they were not, maybe it wasn't the same as theirs. They respect you because of your consistency around them. And that's what we're looking for. When we talk about a money ball leader, you know, it might be that their, their core value is accountability. And so it's like, just get it done. That's all I care about. And you know what?

So then you know what you signed up for. They're being, they're not being any different. They're telling you what they expect. And so that, that level of just clarity, Brene Brown calls it, you know, clear as kind, unclear as unkind, but how we can show up as ourself and unapologetically, right? Like that's where people, that's where leadership legacies are built because people are like, got it. They know who they are. They're not being who they're not. Right. So it's all starts with this language. This is the beginning of it. And the key part is we give them the scripts. We give them their words back, but then we give them things to practice. So we do it over time so that, right? So you're, you're practicing it because back to the beginning of our conversation, you can read it in a book and it sounds great, but if you don't do anything with it, it doesn't matter.

It's just noise. It's that eight, it's part of that 80% that is just weighing you down. It's just noise. So we want you to learn how to do the practice. This gets you better. It gets you stronger that return on interaction. So, you know, like that, yeah, it is, it's a new ROI. Yeah. I completely agree. I think that's, you know, and that's why my hope is actually, um, you know, there's a lot of fear out there about AI and what it's going to do and who it's going to replace and rightfully so. But I think the, the biggest benefit is actually going to be the coaching and assessment of individual needs, individual, right? Because one manager, if they have 10 reps on a team, they can't, it's really hard for me to understand unless I deliberately go through this exercise with each one of them, right?

I'll be, you know, show up for you versus you versus you versus you. Whereas AI can now know exactly the way person, what my personality is, what I like, what I don't like, what I'm happy when I'm sad, and, and really start to, you know, give me objective in a certain degree information that I can then hopefully do something with it and then roll up to management. So, um, I mean, that's one of my hopes for AI is that it's actually going to help frontline managers, frontline coaches, frontline sales reps understand a lot of stuff that you're talking about here, but it, it, it, at least at a baseline level, not a deep level, but at least a baseline level. So, right. Well, and helping, like, cause then if we can get managers, cause part of the problem as well as a lot of frontline managers, they don't even have the skill.

They don't know how to do this. They don't even know how to have these conversations. But when you, when you, when you, um, have reps that know the direction they're going in, it makes it so much easier for the leader because it's basically where, you know, I, you know, what, you know, what is leadership, right? It is, you know, it's not, if, if people aren't listening, you're not there, you're not leading. Right. And so you have to know how to listen to yourself as a leader, if you want people to listen to you. And so this is like that first step, but it's, um, yeah, like it's again, that personal accountability, what's that person bringing to the table. So when you do this foundational work, it doesn't matter.

You could do it either way. Usually most programs we're doing, um, a program with the leaders, the front, like the, the leaders and the people at the same time. And sometimes we just do it with the leaders and then we have them practice it with their people. Uh, but it's, it's, um, you know, really about personal accountability, right? How you're showing up in every conversation, because regardless of AI, um, you're going to use, you're going to use it to get better, um, and get more insights, but also, but you're always going to like the real power comes from these real conversations. Um, that's, that's, what's going to, that's really, you know, feeling like, feeling like, Hey, you know, I, I got your back, you know, I, and I, and I got your leader versus, and I got, I got your leader, right?

Like here's like, there's two, it's two things. I got your back or I'm going to point out your flaws. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Yeah. The carrot stick approach. You know, I've always found way better results when it comes to the, you know, the carrot and motivating people from the right level, as opposed to motivating from fear. Unfortunately, fear is a much stronger motivator on the surface, like in the short term, but, but real roads, the motivators come from those deep values and police systems and where they want to go. Absolutely. I mean, in fear, I mean, I mean, there's study after study out there that like fear actually is, is going to get you, it's going to work against your results. I mean, that's ultimately the fear and control leader.

That they're just going to continue to suffer because it's, that doesn't work. I mean, it works. It works short term, but if you think about the long term, you know, what the, what the effect is, you know, disengaged people, you know, turnover. And right now when we're, we're at a really interesting, we're at a really interesting time where that is more of the focus. So where I'm saying is if you want to show up differently and you want to, you know, you want to win doing this with, you know, with your people is going to give you an exponential, um, you know, um, return because you're doing it differently. People are going to want to want to work for you. They're going to want to come, you know, you, we ever, I mean, everybody you talk to what is looking to leave their place, you know, like creating something where people want to run to, that's a competitive advantage.

People notice, but as you got to, you got to change the game. Right. And I think it's, it's one of those, as we wrap this up, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's a choice anymore. Right. I mean, I think that, yeah, you know, historically we kind of muddled through with mediocrity and throwing money at problems and, you know, building teams that have, you know, churn, high churn with customers and reps who cares. Um, but now I do think there's a reckoning at this point where companies have to, cause, cause there is a, there is an argument to be made right now to rip and replace. And when I say that, like literally burn and I'll talk sales, obviously, but burn your sales team to the ground, burn your tech stack to the ground and start off tech native AI, sales native AI and go.

Um, I don't think that's the right way because I think that obviously takes all the human element out of it. I think kind of looking back at your core performers, the ones you want to keep and diving deep into their, you know, ethos and what they want and all that other stuff is, is now I think what's going to drive far more profitable growth than the throw money at problems that, you know, in the world that we used to be in. Nobody cared. Absolutely. I mean, absolutely. There's so much waste. There's so much waste that happens. Um, and you know, even that why this, you know, when I talked about that framework of, of, you know, how do you, how do you, um, speak, how, how do you give people what they need?

Right. So that's the same as the buyer. But what the challenge is is that if, if the leadership doesn't, if they're not self-aware and they just want it pitched a certain way. Right. If it's, if the leaders are saying, pitch it this way, and I'm going, dude, the way you're pitching it, you're missing the mark 75% of the time because you don't, you want it the way you want it. You're not thinking about the buyer and what they need and you know what they're lovely. Right. So how do you, how do you, when you master that, it's just, it, it's a game changer. Cause the sales go up, everything goes up, but it's, you know, a lot of these leaders, they get in their own way. Cause they think it has to be done their way.

Would you rather be right? Or would you rather win? This is what I always say. It's like ego is, is the enemy here. Totally. It's an unfortunate egos all over the smoke sales. Uh, Jamie, let's, let's wrap this up. Cause I think we could keep talking. We've got a lot more to talk about with your book. Parts developing a playbook, return on interactions, the war room, the wind room, all that stuff. But I think I'm going to let people go buy her book. Should, because like she said, it's short, sweet to the point, super tactical. Uh, but Jamie, where can people find out more information about you, what you're doing in the book, all that stuff? Yeah. I mean, most, most is on LinkedIn, you know, you can check me out on LinkedIn.

That's easiest. All my contact information's there. Uh, click the link. If you want to chat, I'd love to hear from you. All right. Cool. And for everybody listening is Jamie, J A I M E. And then Diglio, D I G I D I G L I O. Right. Yep. You got it. Got the early eye on the Jamie. Yes. All right. Jamie. Well, I'm bummed that I'm not going to see you next week down at Bryant, but let's, uh, have a time to grab some coffee or something sometime there sooner, right? Yeah. We'll figure it out. Thanks so much. It's great to have. Great to be on today. Always great to have you here. Thank you very much, everybody for listening. And like I always say at the end of these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today.

Cause about how bad your day went or how bad you think it's going. You make somebody smile. You know, you had a good day. The world needs a lot more that right now. So thank you all very much. And I'll see you on the other side. Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with your support and our incredible guests. We're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now. And I can't thank you enough now to keep the momentum going. It would mean the world to me. If you could go and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform and share some of your favorite episodes with your network. Also, I am super excited to be launching my new newsletter where I'll be sharing everything I know and everything I'm learning along the way while I'm out there selling every day.

Just like you go to jbarrows.com slash newsletter to sign up today. Let's all level up and make this happen together. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a quick minute to share with you what I'm working on these days with my new JB sales membership. It includes live monthly training delivered by me on my two signature courses, which are filling the funnel and driving a close that cover all aspects of the sales process. It also includes monthly workshops that I'll be running on specific sales skills and different tech skills like chat GPT and how to leverage AI throughout the entire sales process. Finally, the membership gives you access to my entire online catalog with every course and every tip I've ever done.

And as an exclusive offer to my podcast listeners, if you go to jbarrows.com, click on the individual membership link and use coupon code podcast at checkout, you'll get 25% off. Now let's get back to the conversation.