HR Truth Bombs for Managers with Ashley Herd

Hey, real quick before we get into the conversation. Look, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while now, you know I don't have sponsors. And it's mainly because I know most people, including myself, skip right through them and I just don't want to annoy my audience with 10 minutes of sponsor spots every single week. However, it also means I don't get paid to do this. So the way I help fund my ability to provide free content and really interesting conversations like the one you're about to hear is through my sales training and coaching services. So if you've gotten value out of some of these conversations on this podcast and you're looking to level up your sales game, do me a favor and go to jbarrows.com and check out the training tab on the top nav bar.

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Now let's get on with the show. It's incredibly important to know how people's role fits into the bigger picture. It's also important to pause and think about other people that you work with within the organization and how you can take what can feel like even the most adversarial of functions, but to have a productive relationship and figure out how you can get ahead the best. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays, where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health, and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And today I am joined by Ashley Hurd, a former general counsel and HR executive turned founder of Manager Method, where she helps organizations build better leaders through real world tactical training.

And she's also a LinkedIn learning instructor, podcast host, and soon to be author of The Manager Method, dropping in February of 2026, which is right around when this podcast is going to come out. Ashley's all about cutting through corporate fluff and giving managers the tools they actually need, especially the ones no one ever teaches you. And this was a really cool conversation because she's got a great background, first of all, coming from Kentucky, went to international business, and then started with corporate executive board. That was her first job where she got into the analytics and the sales side and then went to be a lawyer. And that's where, because her family, she comes from some lawyers in her family and she had that itch and then became general counsel and then moved into manager or legal, internal legal counsel at KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and then McKenzie.

And one of the things that she said in my prep, she said, a senior partner at McKenzie and a restaurant manager at KFC have more in common than most people realize. So that was one of the first things that we dove into. And she learned a lot with KFC and the recognition culture that they had there and the impact that it made on employees. And then talked about that switch from being a full-time employee and general counsel and SVP to starting her own businesses, the manager method, and why she did that. What was the driver behind it? And it was constantly, for her, it was really just constantly seeing the impact managers were having, but the lack of resources and tools and training they were getting, which I've always talked about, right?

I think sales reps get limited training, but nine times out of 10, managers are the best sales reps and they get promoted to managers and they get almost no training on how to be a manager. And it's the worst case scenario. You're putting everybody in a position to fail effectively. So we dove into the manager method book and some of her key concepts, including pause, consider act, and the different leadership styles that she describes as tight jeans, sweatpants, or cozy joggers, and also how to kind of switch between those or evolve from, for instance, a micromanager to somebody who's a little bit looser, but still holds accountability. And then last but not least, we talked about some of the special projects she is associated with, which is all abilities football in Sydney, which helps, I think under, let's see, helping kids with special needs experience the joy of sports, which I think is fantastic.

And then the one that she's super passionate about, which is Bereave. She's an advisor and Bereave changes the way people experience the loss of their loved ones. And she helps organizations with resources and tools to help just deal with loss and bereavement. And that's one of the bigger challenges from a management standpoint is how do you, how do you handle employees when they're going through some really, really tough times? So it was really cool to finish up on that. So anyways, I really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I do. Let's make it happen. Ashley Hurd, welcome to the Make It Happen Monday podcast. My friend, how are you today? I am doing fantastically. Very glad to be here, John.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation because I think we're going to touch on a subject near and dear to my heart as far as management, coaching and enablement and how lacking it is out there and how us as sales reps get limited training, but managers get even less and why that's a huge problem. But Ashley, as I always do on these podcasts, before we get into it, talk to me a little bit about the origin story here. So growing up, parents, influence, all the fun stuff we can't find out on LinkedIn that made Ashley, Ashley. So talk to me a little bit about where all that's coming from. So growing up, I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky, the great Commonwealth. Both my parents, they didn't graduate college until they were each about 37.

And so I saw them really at every level of the corporate ladder. My dad was working nights, sorting checks. He ended up going on getting his CFA, becoming a portfolio manager. And the person that he'd started with was running the check machine years later because it still kept in touch with him. And so it's just interesting to see where careers can go. My mom ended up going on, having a couple of careers, including going to law school. She graduated after I did. She graduated in her 50s. That's awesome. So I say that because, again, I appreciated everything I had. When you grow up and you don't have as much and you don't have as much travel, you really appreciate things. I truly think that that's helped me have a good work ethic.

And so I always cared very much about everybody at every level of the organizational ladder. And that was really instilled for me at a young age. And, you know, I also saw you can have, I call them career quilts, as opposed to what people may say of the, you know, what does your LinkedIn look like? It's, yeah, the ladder, it can be chutes and ladders. But, you know, I've seen career quilts from my own family. And so it made me, I did B2B sales, which we'll talk about. And I went to law school, NHR, and now kind of weave everything together of really helping leaders develop at scale. Love it. So let's stay back there, though, from a college standpoint. Why international business? Why Spanish, right?

I mean, obviously you have the business bug from your parents and being around it. But what did, especially coming from Kentucky, you know, where did the international bug come from? So I didn't travel much growing up. I mean, I think going to the beach a couple times. So I went to Center College in Danville, Kentucky, which is a liberal arts school, a fantastic school. And it's actually one of the top schools in the country for study abroad. And so they have a really cool program. Oh, okay. Like, if you haven't studied abroad by your senior year, you can do it at discount, you know, for these, like, you know, few week trips. But I did two semesters, winter and spring in, well, in Strasbourg, France, which doesn't make sense because I was a Spanish major.

But I was going to say that's weak. It was, but in part. So I happened to, Louisville, I started taking Spanish when I was in first grade and had gone to a high school called DuPont Manual High School. It's a magnet school. So it's like a big kind of academic and creative focus. And so I took really challenging Spanish classes that at the time I thought it was, you know, super annoying to memorize all these sentences and things. But I realized it's totally, it's helped me out and continued in life. It's one of the few things I actually really use all the time. But so I added, had it in college because I started out as an English major. I loved to write. I had this idea of wanting to be a playwright.

But pretty quickly, yeah, I had done that in high school and had plays put on in the Louisville, like Louisville Performing Arts Center. And then I went to college. But also, again, having not grown up as much, you start thinking about what do you want to do after college and having international business. I had Spanish because I only had to take like four classes to have it as one of my majors because I, you know, tested and didn't do it all right because I'd taken it. And so that was more of convenience, but it was, it was helpful. But I started, like, the more I kind of learned about the world and wanting to study abroad, all of that just opened my eyes up. I went abroad when I was 20. I turned 21 while I was there.

Again, not as exciting in Europe when, you know, it doesn't matter if you're 21. But I tried, we traveled all over the place. I lived with four of my friends, went to eight or nine different countries. And it really just opened my eyes up to how the world was. And so just kind of kept that bug in me. Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jbarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2 if you've already gone through my training before. You can also sign up for my newsletter on jbarrows.com where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there, some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across, and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do.

So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review, or follow me on the newsletter. It would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. I always say like the international, because I didn't travel internationally until I met my wife and she had been semester abroad in Australia and all these places. And I was, I think I was like 27, 28, and I still hadn't had my passport. Right. And she forced me to, she's like, look, we're going on a trip across, you know, around the world. And if you don't get your passport, I'm going without you. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll get it. And it was, it was, let's see, Amsterdam.

No, the first place was Iceland, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Ibiza, back to Barcelona and back home. And I, when I tell you my mind was blown, like absolutely my lens changed drastically after that trip. And I just wish more people would get the chance to travel because it just gives you such a different perspective on this world. And you know, the fact that most Americans don't even get out of their hometown is, is, is just criminal in my opinion, because I think it just, it gives you so much different perspective. I agree. Have you continued traveling internationally and gone? Oh yeah. Tons of other places. Well, fortunately I've now my, the job that I have right. Traveling and the clients that I've worked with, I get to travel all, I'm on my fourth passport now.

So filled it up and I did, I did before COVID and I want to talk about that as far as right before you started your business. But, uh, um, before COVID I was 2 million miles in less than 10 years. So, yeah, so I, I, I've definitely, now these days I don't really want to travel that much anymore. Yeah. Flight cancellation, all the things. I mean, I just got, I just got back. So, you know, I vowed last year to not travel as much, right. But you know, business, you gotta, you gotta do what you gotta do. And Q1 is, is my busiest quarter with sales kickoff. So I was in Dubai last weekend for a conference. I took a 13 hour flight home, landed at one 30 in the afternoon, came back to my house for an hour, took a shower, dropped off my, my, uh, bag, got a new one, went back to the airport, uh, caught a six o'clock flight to Miami and then, you know, did a keynote all day yesterday and then came home at midnight last night.

And it was like, okay, all right, this is, this is a young man's game right now. And I am not young anymore. Well, you look quite chipper this morning. So if you have a, uh, a morning, a morning, um, you know, ice bath and, and coffee routine, you're going to have to include that either in our conversation or the show notes because you're, you're quite chipper. Yeah, I appreciate it. I think it's the, I think it's the coffee, but, uh, we'll see. Um, call it. All right. So I'm curious on this one because it aligns directly with obviously what I do in sales training. So you had this international business degree, Spanish. Um, you ultimately got your law degree and then went in that direction, but you took a stint at corporate executive board.

So, so why, first of all, did, were you thinking about law before that? Or was that just kind of like, like, okay, let me do this and then see what's next. I always wanted to be a lawyer. And, and while I say my, my mom went to law school, my, my brother is older than me. He's actually about to finish, uh, his part-time law degree. He works in corporate strategy. And so we, um, we, I, I started a trend. Clearly I didn't tell everybody how miserable law school can be, but, um, I always wanted to be a lawyer and I don't, I don't know why I was like a child of the eighties. And I don't know if I, you know, saw Gordon Gekko and thought, well, I don't have business in me, but I'll be, I'll be on the legal side.

I have no idea. But I, like, I had, I wish I still had it, but at the Kentucky state fair, when I was like 10 years old, you could make this sheriff's badge and put your name on it. And for whatever reason, I wrote my name, which at the time was Ashley Vinsel and below it, I wrote corporate lawyer. I had like, at 10, 10, 10 years old. Like, yeah, it's, that's, that's, you know, that was a very cool parents can have on you. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's like, great, good, good luck with that. Um, but so I, I did, but, but really studying internationally and studying abroad, it made me realize that I didn't just want to go right to law school. I thought about that, but I decided to, to work.

And so I was actually going to go to Charleston and, um, be a bartend and all of those things. And I was in Charleston with my friends the summer after we graduated college, looking for apartments when we saw it was really hard to find a four bedroom apartment because there were four of us. And I got a job offer from corporate executive board, which I'd applied to because, uh, uh, corporate executive board now, now it was acquired by Gartner. Um, but basically, you know, uh, B2B research advisory services. So not in-person consulting, but, you know, but all of that. And so it had a kind of a pipeline from center. It's a guy named Scott Bohannon. He'd eventually gone on, he's a corn fairy, but he started recruiting people out of center.

So, so, uh, David Ellis, who was two years ahead of me, he's now been at LinkedIn. He's a healthcare sales leader at LinkedIn. Um, and then others, uh, the year ahead of me, it was like a pipeline we had from center. And so I applied and it was, uh, in DC, a job in DC and I love DC for me. I felt like DC is the closest that we have in the U S to being in Europe. Um, and so it just like, why is that? I mean, probably cause the buildings are short. I don't know. I mean, I wish I had, but it just feels, it feels very historic. And maybe some people would say, okay, like Philadelphia, some of that, it just. Yeah. Cause I'm in Boston and I usually say Boston is probably the most European of all the cities because of the, you know, the oldness, but you know, DC is an interesting one.

I never heard that one as related to, uh, Europe quite frankly. Yeah. All like the, you know, the monuments and all, and all of that. And so I just got such a great vibe being there. And so I, you know, I looked at it, it was hard for us to find a four bedroom apartment. And so I decided to take a chance and I thought I was going to be rich getting, you know, $30,000 and health benefits. Like, wow, this is striking it rich at 22. And so I decided to go and do it. And it's funny cause the job title was marketing associate. And so I even, so I ended up moving to DC, Northern Virginia, lived with, you know, four girls I hadn't known at the time. And I was saying my, you know, my job's marketing associate.

And they're like, right. It's sales. And I'm like, oh, is it like, I don't know that I had a full idea of what the job really was, but, um, but it makes me laugh. Cause obviously now there's all sorts of, well, the end of titles you have in a, in a revenue function, but, um, it was, it was not marketing. It was definitely sales. Yeah. That's it. It's weird. There's a parallel. Cause I, I got into sales with DeWalt and DeWalt. They had this, they called it the swarm team and it was under event marketing. And so I was like, oh, cool. Cause my degree was marketing. But when I got out and like, had those like actual job offers, like from like real marketing positions, I was like, eh, I don't, I don't know if I, that doesn't really feel right.

And then DeWalt was like, oh, it's a marketing, you know, event specialist. And I was like, great. And it was sales a hundred percent. Like my, my job was to drive around and convince people to buy DeWalt tools. I mean, yes, I put on shows and all this other stuff, but ultimately I was closing stuff. So it's funny how marketing transitions to sales and that, in that context. So, so then you get your degree, um, and, and you start diving into the legal component of businesses and HR and helping. And, and one of the things I'm really curious about is you said, cause you, you, you were at KFC and then McKinsey. And you said a senior partner at McKinsey and a, and a restaurant manager at KFC have more in common than most people realize.

Help me understand a little bit more about that and how you came to that realization. And maybe what are some of the things that KFC that, that woke you up to the kind of leadership and management? So one thing was when I went to KFC, um, I had come from Atlanta. Um, I'm from, I again, grew up in Louisville. So I had come to Atlanta for law school. We're in Atlanta. We had our second child. My kids are now 11 and 14, but when my son was a baby, you know, this idea of having family close by, we decided to move back to Louisville and I applied for one job, one job. And it was at KFC as a, as a lawyer for KFC. Uh, I do not know the, the, you know, herbs and spices, sadly, but I had come, I had actually come from a job I loved in Atlanta.

I worked for, um, Cumulus media as a radio company. Um, uh, it was super fun job that Beyonce, like all these fun kind of things that most lawyers don't get. But, but when I interviewed someone said, Oh, you know, here at KFC at yum, we have a recognition culture. In my mind, I was like, what is that? I had, I had, I didn't understand what that really meant. And what that meant when I saw it, when it came to life was, was really, some of it was a formal culture. Once a month, um, there would be this recognition parade. Um, I was at the restaurant support center in Louisville. They had a preschool there. So the pre-K kids would come and do this parade and leaders would surprise, stop by the desks and surprise, you know, three different people.

And you'd go around and recognize and they'd talk about what the person did, the impact they had, but it was great, but it didn't just stop there. Everybody in the whole company was not just allowed, but encouraged to create their own recognition award and you give it to people. And it wasn't, that was not like once a month you do it when you feel compelled to. And so I had come, I'd worked, um, Cumulus was media. We also managed a magazine company. So I created this award, um, that was like a magazine cover. And so I created it. They gave everyone a budget. I think you'd get like, you know, 20 bucks to give a gift card to someone. But so I would, you know, use like my, you know, Microsoft paint skills and make, and make like a fake magazine cover of their picture and their accomplishments and give it to people I'd worked with.

And so coming from that, I saw, you know, our whole business was about selling chicken and chicken on the bone is a very, very hard business. Um, it's, it's, it's challenging on all fronts. But so I saw how much they cared about the business and the people. There was so much they did. Everything we did was not just for corporate. It was always a reminder that what we were doing was that was support the teams in the restaurants who were supporting our customers. And so for those restaurant managers, you know, they're trying to figure out how to drive business and also keep people, you know, keep people in the job, learn about. And I saw, I saw and met restaurant managers in particular, cause we'd have recognition things, but where I saw people that they could do an incredible job driving business and also knew so much about the lives of the people on their team.

And you saw it come to life in that environment. So fast forward, I went to McKinsey and I, um, we'd lived abroad. I came back. I was working at McKinsey as a lawyer. Um, after a year I was asked to interview and became the head of HR of North America. But one thing I saw is I actually worked pretty closely, um, with senior partners and got to know them as people. And that was one of the things that I really appreciated that, you know, like I went to Center College, I went to Emory Law School, great law school, but no, no Ivy League degree. I was, felt like the minority at somewhere where everyone is. Yeah. But so these senior partners that are leading crazy deals, they've met, you know, you know, business titans and all that.

But a lot of them, I just saw this exact same energy of people that I met at KFC of, you know, trying to do business, trying to have the people on their team. And what I also saw were some of those senior partners at McKinsey could have had a master class taught to them by a restaurant manager at KFC about driving business. And the gap is that a lot of those, you know, restaurant managers or take people in any sort of organization, they feel like they're not as worthy of whether it's recognition or respect or development as some senior partner and everything they must be doing. But, you know, at the end of the day, I don't personally see the effects of that much that a huge consulting firm is doing.

You know, it's all happening in the world, but I may go to a restaurant and I may be having the worst day ever, but how a restaurant team member greets me, that can change in a second. They are the chief marketing officer of that organization. So for that, I just think everyone is trying to drive results without driving people out the door, hopefully. And that's a common thread across any function. I love that. And I think that it's lost a lot in the corporate world, especially, I mean, it's kind of sad in the tech space that I live in, right? It's, it's, you know, AI is freaking everybody out. And, you know, I'm going to, we're going to talk about that in a bit about AI coaching, but, you know, there's, there's this feeling that no matter what the company says on their vision or their mission or their values, that as soon as they can find a cheaper way of doing my job, I'm out the door.

And so I'm like the authenticity of, of leadership, I think is critical right now. And every, you know, I'm sure, and I'm guessing you can back this up pretty strong, which is, you know, people don't leave their companies, they leave their managers or they stay because of their man. I mean, you could, you could be at a shitty ass company, but if you have a great frontline manager, you'll stick it out. You could be at a great company, but if your frontline manager is a jackass, you're going to leave. Is that, I mean, are you seeing, do you see that as the impact of frontline management, not just leadership? Yes. Yes. Because, and again, like top leadership, I mean, you may look at some of these leadership development programs you have, like, I'm sure, you know, you've seen it working with teams.

You may have, you know, if you have chief in the title, then that can open the doors to, you know, you're going to, you know, you're going to climb Kilimanjaro as a leadership team and have, you know, all of these and have this, you know, seven. Yeah, all this, like, you know, leadership retreat flying first, you know, you're flying a $17,000 flight for those things when there's a frontline leader that's trying to fight to get a $200, you know, leadership class or something like that expensed. And so it's actually really important. And again, some of this is this idea of the people that your customers are going to interact with the most, again, generally aren't the people at the top of the ladder.

And so teaching those frontline leaders, whether it's a corporate environment, whether it's, whether it's, you know, a restaurant, retail, healthcare, all of those, it really, they have, they do have such an impact on when people stay or go. And it's examples. I mean, I have, like I said, so I left Atlanta to move to Louisville because I wanted to be near family. I miss that job I had in Atlanta. I miss, I still have a text group with, with my boss, my assistant that we, that we worked with. And when I left, even though I was, I was leaving, you know, the person that was replacing that role, I'm jumping on calls with to help, oh, help them transition. And so even when sometimes people leave for other reasons, like maybe you're getting paid more, maybe you're relocating, the way you transition and the benefit that you have, the manager's ripple effects really do continue on.

And I, I see that it's backed up by data. Harvard Business Review has done some great articles recently on this, but still, you're not always seeing organizations actually do something about it. Yeah. It's a, you know, a lot of it is just kind of superficial that my experience, right. And if there's, it's just like training in the sense that they check the box, oh, we've invested in training, but they don't integrate it. They don't reinforce it. They don't internalize it so that it's actually part of their motion moving forward. It's, it's okay, cool. We did management training. Okay, cool. We did sales training. And that is just obviously, I don't know. I want to say a waste of money because we can always get something out of training and hopefully some people do, but without the alignment from a leadership standpoint, how this is going to get integrated, how we're going to create this system and process for development over the years is missing drastically in most organizations I come across.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, and I think especially in that sales function, because you're taking what the, the, the common motion that you see is great. We're going to have a top salesperson. They're fantastic. You know, we want to replicate them. Well, we can't replicate them, but what we'll do is make them a manager. So we'll make you a manager. And sometimes that person's not really given a choice and they are not given a description of what being a sales manager is really like. And so, okay, great. All right. This sounds fantastic. And then you plop them into the role and you've taken someone who in a sales function, especially when you look at the leaderboard stack ranking, you're, you're often directly or indirectly incentivized to not share things with other people.

You're competing, you're competing against your team and you're standing out and your gold stars are everything that stands behind your paycheck and your livelihood. And so you're used to being a, a one man or woman shop. Then all of a sudden you're a manager. So you're trying to train people when you may not know how to describe what you do. You may not have patience for the low performers on your team or understanding what's at the heart of it. And then you throw the people issues into that where people need time off people, all of these things that matter to why people come or go in it's that win-win idea, uh, turns into a quickly a lose-lose for that new manager and the whole team. That's why I usually ask managers, like especially the best reps, right?

If they're top reps and they're like, Oh, I want to be a manager. I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure about this? Because you're going to get paid less. You're going to get way more responsibility. It's not going to be the fun stuff that you like doing. And so why do you want to be a manager? And if their answer is, well, because that's the next step, I'm like, nope, nope. That's the wrong answer. That the right answer is because I love working with people. I love helping other people develop. I love, I actually get more enjoyment out of seeing other people succeed than myself. Like that's the answer that you need to be a good manager in my opinion. But if it's like, well, it's just because it's the next thing.

Cause I've already done the other stuff like run, please don't become a manager. So you, uh, we're going to get into some of the details of kind of some of those signs. Um, but I, I wanted to, you went from SVP of people at modern luxury to then starting your own business and you did it right before COVID. So what was the, first of all, was there a tipping point for you where you saw the systemic issue of management leadership of just not having the right tools to be successful? Like, or was it a build where you were like, I'm seeing this and now's the time. I mean, I, I signed, I was a bit fortunate to see it at an early age, relatively in my career, because even though I was a lawyer, when I first went in house, so like 2012, meaning I worked directly for a company as a lawyer, as opposed to being in a law firm, I would talk to managers and they would talk about, for example, putting someone on a performance plan and, uh, but they put them on a performance plan.

And, you know, my, from my perspective, okay, I'm trying to figure out what I need to do. Like, oh, I'll review the paperwork. Okay. Then, you know, this is a 30, 60 day plan, 30 days. Sometimes I'd find out, oh, you, oh, you let the person go. We didn't even have a conversation to like check, check in on it. But that's when I learned. And I had a colleague that really helped me through this because we didn't have like a strategic HR function in that company. So we had to take on that skill. And so I learned pretty quickly, my role wasn't just, is this legal? Is this, you know, the floor, the bare, the bare minimum, but to have the conversations with the manager to say, okay, so this person's going on a performance plan.

Like, what are, what are, is this going to be a surprise? And then talking through, what are your commitments? Because in that performance plan, sometimes it'll say, I'm going to meet with you every day. And so I learned over time to challenge and say, okay, is that realistic? Are you going to? Because if you're not and you get to the end day and all of a sudden things start feeling really unfair and also thinking at like all of those kind of holistic people things like, okay, if you're, as you get through the plan, you should be having conversations with them. What kind of support are you giving them? Because at the end of the day, people aren't going to always survive those. It's really important that most people, no, but I think statistically most people don't.

I don't know if we're at the statistics on that, but they don't. But, but I've seen it that I've seen people recover and, or be successful on the plan and totally transform, transform it and be successful. And so it's really important that managers be open to that. Because if you just view it as, if you're just going to view this as getting somebody out, then you're doing someone a disservice by having this. And that's, and so I learned really those skills. And so seeing how important it was to have real conversations with managers. But again, that there were things I saw from my experience, both in legal, but also in people and considering the person on the other side of that, of that plan or conversation.

And so I saw that. And so it was when I was at McKinsey, really, that I saw, wow, like, it's not just the people I've worked with in media, in restaurants that struggle. It is super, super sharp people that still struggle with some of the things that may seem like common sense to me, but they're not always. And so I've lived, before McKinsey, I'd lived abroad in Australia. I have CB and Gartner to thank for that. It was my, my husband. I met my husband when we were 22, cold calling CFOs together. Nice. Yeah. I stayed on longer than he, than he did, but he actually returned to the company. And so we got to live in Australia as a family for that. So I am forever grateful. But I was trying to figure out what I could do.

I was working for a U.S. company, modern luxuries, people legal. And I bought this domain, managermethod.com, thinking, okay, what am I, you know, what do I go to, I kind of did this icky guy exercise. So for those, it's, so it's IKI, GAI, it's four questions, basically, what do you like doing? What are you good at? What do people need? And what will people pay for? Again, kind of versions of that. And I realized I really helped, like having managers have difficult conversations. And that doesn't always mean performance. Sometimes that's, why does it matter how you onboard somebody and greet someone? Why does it matter that you show up for one-on-ones? And so I had this idea and did nothing with it aside from owning this domain for a couple years.

And it was when I was at McKinsey and had just gotten this role leading HR North America that I was talking to someone on my team and it said, because we talked about what would you do if you weren't working here? Always one of my favorite topics. And I said, you know, about this domain, I want to start this company one day. And this is the one on my team who'd been at McKinsey for decades. And she said, I'm like, you know, I know I'm reporting to you now, but why wouldn't you do this? Why wouldn't you do this right now? And, you know, I thought about it and I had all the reasons of like, I have a salary. I have this title. I never thought I would, I don't think I deserve this. And, but I really thought about it and ended up leaving to deciding to start it.

And, um, the tipping point was really, this has been nagging at me and maybe this is a sign to do it now. I want to just a little bit on this, uh, pip thing. Cause I, I, the pip thing that I've seen are usually disasters. Most of them are, are a way of just a nice corporate way of saying goodbye without just ripping the bandaid off. How do you determine as an organization or as a manager when it's worth putting somebody on a pip versus being like, look, this just isn't for you. So, and I, and I use this example because I worked for Jack Welsh for a little while and I asked him cause his whole top grading and neutron Jack and everybody hates him because he always cuts the bottom 10. And he said something that was, that resonated with me.

He's like, everybody thinks I'm an asshole for that approach. He goes, but let me ask you, what do you think is being more of an asshole? Giving somebody mediocre performance reviews. Cause you're afraid to have the wrong, like the hard conversation with them over years and years and years. So they get this self, you know, false confidence that they're actually okay at what they do. And then when layoffs come, you know, they, you know, obviously it starts at the bottom And now all of a sudden there's this complex, well, wait a minute. I thought I was good at what I did. Like, why didn't, you know, that type of thing versus me coming to you straight up and saying, look, you're, it's not that you suck in general, you just suck at this.

And so I'm going to cut you loose right now. So you can go find what you're great at. So what's the, I guess, what's that judgment call there, if you will. And is it data backed? Is it insights? Is it gut where you're looking at somebody being like, I don't even think a pip's going to help you because, because you're just, this just isn't the right fit for you. So I'm just going to fire you nicely or lay you up, whatever, versus drag this out and barely peer the bandaid off knowing that it's probably going to be ripped off. Anyways, what's that judgment call there? The first is, I think it's, it's really a conversation in an honest conversation and getting to that point takes a lot of trust.

Cause if you have someone, you, if you have a manager employee relationship, that's, that's broken, it's going to be really hard to have that conversation. But if you can, and you, you tell someone in, in, when someone's not performing and sales is, you know, sales is this incredibly hard job, but it's also an easier one to gauge because you look at results. It's, I say other functions sometimes are squishier, like, oh, I don't like how you write that. I don't like how you have this conversation and sales, you know, numbers tend to speak for themselves. And so in looking at that, but tying that with performance, it, but saying to the person rather than just saying, I'm going to put you on a performance plan and in, in, in some of it's, it's giving them insight into what you're, you're like, because people don't always have a peek into what your role is like as a manager, but saying, you know, I'm held accountable to these numbers.

I'm, this is, this is it. And so the conversation with someone looking at only at the numbers is going to say, well, this person's not a fit for the team, but, but I also know you as a person. And so I want to have the conversation about where do we go from here and where do you truly want to go from here? Is this where you want to sit side by side? We can talk through things, go back and do, whether it's training, shadowing, you know, starting maybe not from scratch, but scratch ish. If you want to put in the work for that, I'm, I'm by your side, but it's going to take that rather than if you don't feel like this is right for you, then it's better to have an honest conversation. And instead of putting someone on a plan, you know, working with your organization, give them severance for that period of time.

So at least you're helping them land on their feet more. And so, you know, data and all of that can help. But I do think from the human element, a big part of it is a conversation because that's to me, that's where I've seen the biggest impact on a plan is the motivation of the person who's in that role in the, the true support from their manager. So, so with that, like there's right now, I just came back from an SKO where they were transitioning everything, all the accounts, all the teams and all this other stuff. So what would you, since I believe trust is probably one of the most, if not the most important factor in almost any relationship, um, as a, as a manager coming into a new team, what would be your, your advice for like the first thing, like forget about people being on pips and all that other stuff, right?

Cause you kind of see the performance or whatever. But as a first time manager, introducing yourself to a new team here, what are some things that you would suggest they do to try to build trust like immediately? And I know trust is an earned thing, but to kind of set the expectations with people of how this is going to go and, and build that, start building that trust with a new team. I do think starting and having meetings with people is incredibly important. While that sounds super basic, oftentimes you come in and you're just so busy, you meet with some people, you don't meet with others. It's incredibly important that when you start off, you, you are giving time to each person on your team because you're likely hearing, you know, well, depending on who you're taking over from, but like, let's say, let's say the, the former manager of the team is still there or your, your boss, they're likely giving you the quick insights of like, you know, don't worry about this person, manage them out as best you can.

This is your person, give your love and care to this person. We really need them on the team. And that's important to hear that, but also to give that opportunity a reset a bit and give people an opportunity. So if it's sitting down like sales team, for example, have their numbers, walk through it, walk through, walk through the numbers that you have, their results, their activity and saying, you know, when I'm coming in, this is, this is what I know about you so far. Help me fill in the gaps. And what are things that I don't see from these numbers in what are areas that, that things that you're, you're interested, you'd like to do more of, you, you, you don't love things that you're unsure of.

Give me the, the color behind this to have a real sense of who you are, what we can do now and where you want to grow. Insane. I, I can't promise you everything, but what I can promise you is I want to take this opportunity to, to really understand you and what we can do to help you succeed in ultimately where you see that going. And I'll give you my feedback as well, but I'd rather the conversation start with you and you tell me that. And it's, you know, in those conversations you'll have, you know, the people that aren't performing, maybe you're saying, well, it's this and this person had a chip against me and sometimes it's having those talking points to, to say, you know, I hear you, this is a fresh relationship and this is why I want to start it.

So to the extent that you feel like you haven't gotten what you need, let's talk about what that is, but also it's going to take ownership, ownership from you. And so it is having that honest conversation at the outset because if it's important to give people time, if you just walk in and say, you know, I'm here, tell me more about yourself and you're not having their numbers and having a real conversation about that and their output, then, you know, it just does, it does feel fluffy and it's hard to follow up on that. But I think threading, you know, for better, for worse and on the flip side with your best performers is this is great. What can we do about this? You know, how can we, how can we improve this even more?

What can we teach because to your point about great high performers that want to move, you know, I'm going to move into manager. I think there's a lot from things like training sessions or really taking the opportunity to coach other people, but you also have to make it worth their while. And that includes thinking about what you can do financially on that. But so, for example, asking that person, you know, what are ways that you have trained others or shared those ideas or had those opportunities and what are ways we can do that even more? How important is it to help a rep understand where they fit into the bigger picture? So when I talk about alignment, right? Like the, hey, the business is trying to do X this year.

That means the C-level executive is responsible for this and the VPs are responsible for that as it aligns with that and the managers and directors and reps. How important is it to have versus just here's your job, right? This is what your job, this is what I expect from you versus, hey, this is your job. And this is how it fits into the bigger picture. Like you mentioned earlier, like this is how I'm measured, okay? And this is why I'm going to ask you to do certain things or whatever it might be. How important is that? I mean, the answer to that is why I do what I do now. In part, that's because when I was at corporate executive board, you know, I started cold calling CFOs for our product that was for heads of finance.

In our opportunity, I got to interview with Mike Archer, who was chief revenue officer there and had an interview and he signed my contract in the meeting, which was like this big thing in this interview. And so then I got promoted to be an account manager. I was rep. So then I was traveling around and having the meetings and all of that. Yeah, and I was with the function, I moved to the team that was for heads of HR. It was called the Corporate Leadership Council. And this was one of the flagship programs of corporate executive board at the time. And so while I was there, they came out with this piece of research. They partnered with Gallup on it. It got published in Harvard Business Review.

But it was all about employee engagement. And, you know, I was 22. Like, I didn't think in these terms. I'd interned in HR, actually, and I still thought of HR as a function of, like, payroll and resetting passwords and all of that. Like, I had never thought about strategy in HR. Didn't know what that meant, really. And this research was all about employee engagement, again, the discretionary effort. So, you know, what are the drivers of that? And it's not compensation. Compensation is, you know, way down the list. Compensation impacts retention and, you know, whether someone stays or goes. But as far as people care about their jobs, the number one driver was whether their direct manager explains to a person how your job fits into that bigger picture.

And for me, you know, I thought about that because I thought, you know, have I had people? And when I thought about times I've had that experience, it was like working at a driving range. Like, the owner talked about this and would, like, point to the people on the driving range and was like, you know, point, like, we don't, I'd say most of them were he out on the drivers. I play golf. But most of them were, he'd be like, you know, you don't know if he just got in a fight with his wife. You don't know if he had a shitty day at work. You don't know these things. But, you know, they're here trying to blow off steam, trying to improve their game, these things. And so the way we show up for those people, that's what we are.

And it was a family business. And I, like, the first thing I saw when I saw this research that was in Harvard Business Review was the owner of this, you know, small driving range. And how, like, yeah, you know what, that was a conversation that I did that. I didn't think at the time how much that meant. But so it really is everything. And so now in what I do, I talk about that. And it's ideal to do that at the outset. You're a new manager or you have a new team member. But even if you haven't had that conversation, you can quickly undo all the awkwardness that you think, okay, I've worked with this person for seven years. If I'm going to sit down and be like, tell me, tell me why you think, you know, let me tell you why your job is so important.

Okay, but you can undo that by saying, you know, I was thinking about this and I wish we'd had this conversation earlier. But do you understand how important your role really is to the bigger picture? I mean, I had this, so I took this on. So when I was in legal and HR and really tried to lean into the HR and did a lot with recognition. But I would do talks at times with our sales teams and with all of our managers and market presidents. I'd say one thing that's incredibly important to talk to your reps teams about is, you know, their performance and how they do when they show up for the day. And whether they choose, they choose to make, you know, additional calls, how they show up, you know, whether they choose to show up, how they, how they greet, greet our clients.

Ultimately, that plays into who we can hire for the rest of the company, because they literally are turning the lights on, keeping the lights on or every other function of the business. And that's why I also talk to people outside of sales, because sometimes like I've lived this world where, you know, corporate executive world, we'd have like cash machines, you know, and like, you know. It's, you know, all the fun and everybody knows it's, you know, it's a lot of pressure on the gong or, you know, like people dress like Lance Armstrong on a bike in the middle of the sales day. All the, you know, all the fun, the fun and games where, you know, the hard work is into it. I've seen on the flip side where people get super resentful of that when you're not in sales, because you're like, they have all the fun.

But also there's so much pressure in between. And so one thing that I've done that I think is really important for sales functions is to have, to have ideally like joint team meetings with each other. And not to just have the head of function talk, but sometimes have them, maybe it's a rep and someone on the product team. You know, those are obviously intact functions that sometimes can come at odds because you're in a sales meeting. The client is like, we will sign, we will sign today if you can promise this. And you're like, yeah, we should be able to do that. And a product, you know, is pissed. Oh, sales is always promising. You know, these, it's, you, you, you feel like you can have, and you can have that very real tension.

You know, the same with like information security, procurement, you know, all those functions that sales feels like they're getting in the way. Accounting. And everybody then in accounting. The sales prevention team, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's what it feels like. And then I've been in sessions and I've, I've led these, but having joint team meetings to talk about what pressures you're under. And what I call them is sessions that say, what do you wish more people knew about your job and how can we actually work better together? And those have been incredibly important to also build relationships, to see the human side between those. And so at the end of the day, to answer your question, yes, it's incredibly important to know how people's role fits into the bigger picture.

That's data-backed and that research continues to show today. I mean, that was first done 22 years ago. But, but it's also important to, to pause and think about other people that you work with in the organization and how you can take what can feel like even the most adversarial of functions, but to have a productive relationship and figure out how you can get ahead the best. Love that. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I have, you know, small business, you know, owners and leaders come to me and ask me like, hey, how do I get my team to work hard? You know, blah, blah, blah. And I've always said to owners, like, first of all, don't you dare ever expect anybody to work as hard as you unless you're going to give them half of the company.

Like, if you're going to give them half the company, then you can expect them to work as hard as you. But after that deal, don't you dare put that expectation on other people. But my, my second is when was the last time you kind of painted the vision for them and, and, or, you know, and how they fit into that vision? Because if you don't paint that vision and, and show them where they fit, they're just going to do their job. And so if I don't feel like I'm a part of something bigger and a bigger purpose here, I'm literally just going to do exactly what's on my job description. But if I know how I align now, I'll do that extra, I'll go that extra mile. I'll do that extra thing. Cause I feel part of something bigger.

And I think that's this, especially this generation is really like just starving for that. Like, how do I fit in? How do I make a difference? I don't want to just be a cog in a wheel here. I want to make sure that I'm doing something that has purpose. Yeah. I could not agree more. Love it. All right. So let's get into the book. Cause, cause you, you know, you kind of built this, uh, it's coming out in February, right? So, uh, around the time we're going to post this and you got a real, some cool concepts in there. So let's talk about, I wanted to start with the leadership styles. Cause you use a lot of, uh, you know, like clothing and, uh, fashion. So you got the tight jeans manager, the sweatpants manager, and the cozy jogger manager.

So first of all, why are you using those analogies and let's unpack each one of them and what are pros and cons of each one of them and, uh, kind of where do you fall quite frankly? So I start with tight jeans because I actually think it's a trap that a lot of people fall into, especially when you're in that very familiar role of being a high performer and promoted into management in being told or expected to have everybody become just like you. And I say like, if you've ever like JB, you ever put on a pair of tight jeans, non-stretch, like tight jeans right out of the dryer. Uh, I know I'm not a, I'm not a skinny jean guy, but, uh, yes, I've, I think I've, I've for Halloween, a couple of times I put on some tight jeans.

Yes. Yeah. So it's not comfy. I mean, if the, the, the few people that may like that, not me, but so it's not, it's generally not that comfortable. And so, and that's how it can feel. It's restrictive working for that micromanager where you feel like never is anything enough. They're doing those, those daily check-ins your, you know, your activity. It's just, it's there and it feels restrictive. And so people often then do the bare minimum to not get, not get fired or not get in trouble. They're, they're, they're on a meeting, you know, the, the, the VP joins the team call. You are not speaking up because you were on last week's call or last six months call. And you know, you're just, you know, you're, you're going to get reamed.

So, so you, you kind of, you, you fill a really tight container. But again, it's the reason behind that generally isn't someone's trying to be an asshole. They're often trying to protect their team or teach them the ways they know this works particularly. And they're not considering whether someone, something might be right for that manager, but not necessarily the right or necessary for the team member, but that's super restrictive. And again, the downfall is you tend to drive people out the door. Even if you get short-term wins, it tends to really drive people away. The flip side of that is the oversized sweatpants. So that's your manager. That's like, you know what, you know where to, that's like the manager that says, you know where to find me.

You know, if you have any questions, come to me. Like, I'm not a regular manager. I'm a cool manager. And you want to be more hands-off. And probably because you had that micromanager or you've seen that and you want to be the opposite. But the gap to that is if you've worked within that leadership. I mean, one time, or one thing is when people have only an open door policy and you're not having regular check-ins, whatever that looks like, sometimes it's really hard to actually find that manager. And it can be really stressful for the team trying to get that feedback or coaching or just anything. And the manager who's just getting pinged from all sides because everyone's trying to reach you when they have a problem.

And people don't understand. Like, people literally, they don't understand the bigger picture. They don't even understand the smaller picture. Like, what, what, okay, here's my, maybe here's my sales goal. What does it take to go into that? So the middle is, is I call cozy joggers leadership and, you know, joggers being, you know, having a waistband, having to support, but giving some room to breathe. And so having that structure. So there are expectations. This is what's expected. This is what has led to this. This is what we're looking for. This is how, this is how we'll check in. This is the effort I expect from you. This is what you can get from me. And so really trying to be clear about communication.

I mean, I have certainly tried to be, tried to be the cozy joggers. Now we have, we have a lean team here at Manager Method, but I've been, I've been a manager. I was, I was, I was a dotted line manager in sales and I was probably 23 managing someone who was 22 and a half. And I was, I was definitely the oversized sweatpants manager because I brought to that, you know, this person's, you know, my age, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to tell you exactly what you're doing. And so I probably had some of the tight jeans in there, but over time, I know I've really realized there's ways that you can, you know, become that cozy joggers manager. And it does tend to get the business results better and also have a team that wants to stay and refer other good people to you.

Is that a personality trait though, to a certain degree? Like there are certain people that are just control freaks in a lot of ways. And then there are certain people that are just super cash, right? So is that a learned thing from a management standpoint to, to deconstruct actually your personality so that you can make that, that evolution? I mean, I'd say, and I recently saw research to back this up, which made me feel great because I've been saying this, you know, with a big caveat of like, I see this, but there's 10% of people I think who are managers who really should not be managers. They should. That's it? I mean, I really do. I really do. Maybe more. Depends on the work. Depends on the work.

But, but they should, they just, they should manage the paperback in the, in the revenue standpoint. I mean, I do think there's probably more in the sales function because there probably are sales managers that should really be reps and for whatever reason. And now they're like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to leave. Take a step back. Yeah. I don't want to take a step back when like financially and, and just mental health and overall contributions to your company, you'd be better served in that. But 10% and 10% of people who, who are naturally great leaders, they just, they have these skills and are able to really connect with different people and do it in a way that just feels and is genuine and really contributes to success.

I just see that 80% as in, it's all different personalities. You don't have to be, you know, whether you're chill, whether you're intense, whether you're an extrovert, introvert, management is a learned skill. It really is for, again, aside from maybe that 10% that, that seems to just come at it naturally, but there are skills that you need to learn. And so for a lot of times, the biggest thing I see to learn is in the book, I talk about this, like pause, consider, act is to pause, is to pause and think about what you're doing before you do it and the impact on that person and how you'd want to be treated in that situation. And that's a, a, something that people often have to not necessarily learn, but be reminded of because you're generally not doing it when you're trying to drive towards a goal, you know, whether it's Q4 energy or Q1.

Okay, here we go again, kick off. It just, it matters so much how your leadership, your leadership matters to people's work and then the life that they live outside of it. Love it. So how do you make, how do you make that transition? If you are a tight pants manager, um, how do you lay off a little bit of the micromanagement, but also retain accountability? Cause there's a balance there, right? I, I've realized that actually probably one of my biggest, um, faults, if you will, is, is accountability. Like I, I, I don't like holding myself accountable. I don't like holding other people accountable. I'm, I, I'm, I think I'm the cozy, you know, uh, but, uh, the cozy joggers, but I think I, I mean, probably more to the sweatpants and like, Hey, open door policy, call me whenever you need me.

Here's the tools, here's the resources, here's your direction go. And then, you know, check in on a quarterly, you know, on a weekly basis just to see how things are going. But like putting somebody on a pip makes, makes my skin crawl, put like micromanaging somebody makes my skin crawl, both somebody else trying to micromanage me and me micromanaging other people. So how do you take the flip side of that? How do you take the micromanager and loosen them up a little bit, but retain that level of accountability? Well, and one of the things you're saying is like putting someone on a pip makes your skin crawl. I actually think there's a lot of managers out there that are able to, through those conversations, you are never getting to the pip perspective because you are having conversations and you're either uncovering what's going on, like, Oh, we actually never, you've never really seen this come to life.

Let's, let's, let's have you shadow. Let's do those things. Like you are giving, you know, redirecting people and giving them what they need. So, okay, now they're on their path to success or on the flip side, you're having the honest conversations with them or like, this isn't, this isn't it. So I actually think for a lot of managers, not having those is actually can be, can be a good thing because it does. And if, if, if you're at the point where it doesn't feel uncomfortable to be telling someone really formally your job's at risk, then that can be a bellwether of like, whether this role is really for you because that human care matters. Like I know, and I've, I've heard from senior leaders who fall into that, you know, 10% category who seem to at times take pleasure in, in performance or terminations even.

So, but a lot of it is just a conversation and in it, in, in, in the book, and so I don't have to plug, but I'd say like, if you realize that you've been a micromanager, you've been doing something, you want to change it, a really important thing that's not easy to do, but is to have a conversation about it with your team. And, and, and you don't have to say, oh, I was listening. You can totally say, I was listening to make it happen Monday podcast with JP and he was, you know, they were talking about this or you can, you can talk about what led you to it. And I actually think that's much more important than people realize to tell your team or other colleagues or things like that, what, what you do to, to help to improve yourself as a leader.

It's a strength to talk about that. It's not like embarrassing. And it can be really, really helpful because then more people need to, need to hear your podcast, but, but also, but is to have a communication about it and to say, you know, as I, I took a time and I sat back and thought about, and really to have something specific, like, okay, I, I thought about, for example, like if, if I haven't had any structured one on one time with people and I know people are, you know, I say my door's always open. But when I say that, do you ever find times when my door is like really shut or you can't even find where my door is because you can't reach out to me and say it in those terms. And again, have those conversations with your team to say, you know, I want to think about having regular times so you don't have to try to find me.

And then I'm not trying to explain to you why I can't meet with you right now. Like, would that be helpful? I mean, that's one of the things I've heard as I've worked with organizations and managers is that they've come back to is like setting up one-on-one times with, with their team members and then again, making it impactful. But having that conversation and saying, this is why I want to do it in saying, you know, we have these results, but I realized like we're going to hit the results and there's all sorts of ways we can hit them. I want to hit them in a way that for each of you all, you all then want to show up the next day to hit another result. And then when you go home, you're not, you know, whether we hit the result or not, you're carrying home some emotion, but you're also able to focus on other aspects of your life because you feel like we're, we're doing what we need to here because that can impact the rest of your life.

If you have someone and you have that conversation and nobody's, nobody's the same, but there's so many people that are starving to have a leader who recognizes that you have to have results. Like that is the reality of it, but also recognizes their role in the life that you live outside of it and how that impacts work and back and forth and back and forth. Again, does not cost budget or require approvals, but it can make such an impact on, on your own work and leadership. On that, how much, how personal should a manager get? So I used to get very personal because I, I was, as one of my values as an organization, it was family. Right. But you know, people realize, oh, we're a family. That's not what I meant.

I didn't, we're not a family because I don't fire my family. Okay. Um, I, I think that's disingenuous for leadership to say, oh, family is a value because we care. We're all a family here, but I, it was more about your family. Right. Like for me, this is why I set expectations. Like, look at the end of the day, I don't care what's going on in this business. If my family needs me, I will dump everything and I will go do that. And I expect you to do the same, quite frankly, because my whole philosophy was, if you're not good at home, if you're not, if your family isn't right, then you're not going to bring your best self to work. So where is that level? Cause some, some people are really comfortable with the personal component to it, but then it gets you into these relationships where now you're like, oh no, I have to fire somebody who I know's family is, you know, all this.

So what's your philosophy on, on personal, like how personal you get? And that is, I mean, it's kind of a play on that saying, like, it's better to have loved and lost than never loved. Like, I do think it is, that is, that is the gray cloud of the silver lining or flip of it of getting to know people at work. You know, I get, I do very scientific studies every day when I post videos on social media and look at the comment section. And one common thread I see constantly from employees is never show anything with your manager. Don't trust your, your manager. Don't show that. And, and I say, that's a, that's a choice, but that's also can be a fairly miserable and isolating way to live. And so as a manager, one thing I recommend saying as a talking point to your team, whether it's a team or individually is you never have to share anything you don't want, but I never want you to feel like, feel afraid to, or feel like you can't.

And, and you have to know in your heart of hearts as a manager, and this is important to communicate is to say, you know, I am your manager. So there's going to be times I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to give us a goal and we're going to have to figure out how to get there when it seems impossible. We're going to have to do things. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to be really clear and direct. And that's, that's my role. I have the same thing and I want the same thing for my boss. And it doesn't always feel easy, but it's really important for, for you and your career and your success. And I don't take for granted that I also have an impact on the way you live outside of work.

And so saying sometimes your team of, you know, you have a big win. We want to celebrate that. We want you to carry that forward. When things don't go well, we, we want to use it as a, we want to use it as a learning experience. Sometimes that means going through a pretty hard lesson, but I also don't want that to turn you into a worse version of yourself. As you leave, you're driving in traffic, you go home and the kids go to the top of the stairs because they can sense mom and dad are going to get into a fight because, you know, mom didn't get this, you know, this, this deal didn't close. Or you're canceling plans with your friends constantly because you're worried about, about, about how I'm going to react to something.

I don't want to create that. And so I love the idea of, I love how you put that of, you know, if you're not good at home and home can mean, home can mean all sorts of things to different people. But I do think, but, but again, so telling people, you know, you don't have to share anything, but I don't want you to feel like you're afraid to. I mean, sometimes that can be that, that's, you know, cozy joggers support. I like it. All right. Let's finish up on this going back to personal. Because you have two very unique and special causes that you support. And one of them is bereave, which, well, you're an advisor and it's changing the way people experience the loss on their loved ones. And then you also have all abilities football for inclusion for kids with special needs.

Talk to me about both of those. Why, what do you love about them, you know, and what lights you up about both of those? Because bereavement is obviously a brutal one. So I, but it's insanely important. So talk to me about both of those and how you got involved in both of those and when kind of what your, what your why is behind those. We'll start with flip. So all abilities football was so when we would live in Sydney, it was the first time I'd worked remotely. So I'd always worked in an office five days a week. When we moved to Sydney, I worked remotely for a U.S. company. And so I started work at 430 in the morning, went down in my kitchen on calls for four hours, went, took my kids to school, came back, would then had like five, six hours of uninterrupted time.

If anybody ever called, they'd apologize. And I'd be like, oh, it's like 1015 in the morning. You're fine. You're good. But, um, but, but it was very isolating for me to work remotely. And so the good thing was I, you know, I pick up my daughter from school. I've had mom friends in Sydney, but, but I learned there's, we lived right across the street from this oval, the Birch Grove Oval in Australia. And it, um, it, and my daughter had done was, was playing in football or soccer and they had the thing looking for volunteers to help, to help. And, um, so I, you know, just went to check, check it out and ended up, and I, I played, I played field hockey in college book. I, I played, the last time I played soccer was on, on like the, the gremlins, literally the team was the gremlins in like 1980, whatever.

Um, um, solid brown, you know, brown jerseys. But, um, but for me, it was on Saturday mornings. Cause I had to work Tuesday through Tuesday through Saturday. I worked Saturday morning cause it was the U S time. And so I get up super early, but then I'd have my cup of coffee and I'd go down to the oval and Saturday mornings and spend two hours working with, um, kids of all levels, you know, from, from, you know, mild, um, you know, emotional needs and support to, to some, some, you know, pretty severe, um, needs, needs report, really one-on-one. And I developed really close relationships with like, with the kids, their families, crazily. The, the woman that, that was running it, one of my friends came and she was like, what, she's like, what are you doing?

I was like, I volunteer at this thing. And then, do you know who this is? The woman that runs it was like the equivalent of like Katie Couric in Australia of going, coming from, coming from the U S again. I didn't, I didn't know. Yeah. Okay. But she was, but she'd, she'd had a child that had, had needed more support. And so, um, I, I got, I got involved in that and it just, it was amazing because it was like, it, it closed the work, the work week and just reminded me of, of what's, you know, what's important and just, um, showing up. And so I, I loved it so very much. The flip side is bereaved. So, so I'm an advisor to it, but I was connected and I was connected, um, by, uh, Jordan Arighetti, um, who's, uh, runs support now, which is, um, kind of like a mashup of GoFundMe, meal train and things like that.

She knew a guy named Justin Clifford. They connected because they're, you know, very similar causes of helping people in need. And so I connect with, with Justin, Kia, and team, team of our bereaved. And what they're doing is really to have resources for organizations for when people go through, um, both, both grief. So from loss and also, you know, severe other needs, like, you know, those in the sandwich generation will know, you know, all of a sudden you're dealing, you're dealing with that. And why it's so important for me in part is I was, I was a, I was a BDR equivalent, um, in sitting at my desk when I got the call and found out my mom had leukemia. I was 23 years old and I was at my, and I, I remember sitting there and I knew Josh Meyer, my colleague, still, still friends on every social media platform came over and had just like gave, like gave me a hug.

And I, and my managers, Caroline, Caroline Holt, who's amazing, Caroline Walsh Holt, those at CB will know she's a legend. She was, she was in revenue enablement. She has her own business now. She was so incredibly supportive. And this was the time that I got promoted from being a cold caller. I came back from helping with my mom to, to have my interview that next day with Mike Archer. And so it was a time that I didn't know how to balance work and life. I did a terrible job. I remember being in Louisville, like once someone called me, they're like, where are you? And I'm like, oh, I'm still in Louisville. I'm sorry. Like, but bereaved gives resources to make it really easy for organizations to support people and give them additional, additional support, coaching, talking points.

Because as I say to people, some of your worst moments in life will happen when you're at work. And so it's just important to have those. So, so I'm incredibly passionate about bereaved. It's incredibly affordable. And if you go to bereaved, look at their website, there's even a thing that says like, send to my HR. And so you can, whether, whether you're an HR or not decision maker, you can go and I am a huge proponent of that organization. Yeah, that's huge. And I think it goes to leadership too, is, you know, understanding how to, how to deal with that, how to deal with the emotional component of what other people are going through. Because that's what I always cringe at was managers who are angry at people for not hitting results or, but, you know, somebody who was pretty good for a while and all of a sudden they've dipped.

And it's like, they don't dig into that second layer, third layer of like, hey, what's going on with you personally? You know, it's, it's a performance is almost always something behind, like, especially if somebody has been a consistent, good performer. And then they're not, there's almost always a personal component to why that's happening. And if you don't dig into that and help them go through that, you're going to lose them one way or the other. And whether it's mentally or physically, they're just going to leave. And so I think that bereavement stuff is fantastic to help organizations deal with that. Because that is probably one of the most awkward things, especially if you're not like a, a genuinely empathetic person.

You know what I mean? I think I was, I've been blessed based on my parents and everything else that I think empathy is just, I've always had high, high empathy. So I feel everything that other people are feeling. And I actually have the reverse problem. I actually empathize too much and I, and I, and I get myself sucked into that, that pain. And so, you know, having skills and tools and resources to be able to deal with that in a professional, but sympathetic way is huge. So that's, that's awesome that you're a part of that. So thank you. Yeah, of course, of course. I totally agree. Awesome. Well, this is, I mean, we didn't even get into the AI stuff, which I was really wanting to do, but I think we might be able to leave that for a second round here.

We will. I'd love to come back for a second round at some point. This has been, this has been awesome. I know this is a wild time for you right now. So I really appreciate you making time. And I love it. As I told JB, our household has been big fans of this podcast. I'm especially excited to be on it. So thank you. I appreciate it, Ashley. And so tell people where they can find out more information about you, the book, and everything else. And then we'll wrap it up. You can go to manager method.com, kind of one stop shop. If you go to manager method.com slash book, if you get my book, the manager method, which is now out, probably when you're listening to this. On that site, you can find a resource guide, a reflection guide, if you read it on your own, also a book club guide, if you want free resources to look at it as a team, leadership team, all of that.

And you can find me across most social media at manager method. Awesome. Well, Ashley, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Appreciate you. Absolutely. And everybody else, hopefully enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And like I said at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much and I'll see you on the other side. Hey, thanks again for listening to the show and for all your support throughout the years.

This is one last reminder to check out my training programs at jbarrows.com or leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2 if you've already gone through my training or sign up for my newsletter. Any of those will help ensure I can continue to bring you free content and great conversations like the ones you just heard without having to annoy you with sponsors. Again, let's make it happen in 2026 together. Thank you.